hanafi madhab: there's no riba in a non-muslim country?!

[hearandobey]

assalam alaykum,

i was watching islamiqa on islamchannel earlier this evening and they had this sufi/barelvi "shaykh" answering questions.

someone asked about savings accounts and whether they're permissible or not and the "shaykh" replied that they are and that whatever interest you get out of the account, is interest according to the non-muslims here but according to the shariah its a benefit that the bank has given to you in return and you're allowed to use this money. he cites "al-hidayah" as reference and says that this is the hanafi position with regards to riba in dar al-harb, which he then said means a non-muslim country. this is the same principle with regards to mortgages etc. he says.

is this true? i've never come across anything like this, even some sufis we know don't do this. if anyone could explain this inshallah, it would be really helpful. jzk

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

wa alaykum salam wa rahmatullah,

brother i remember reading in nuh ha mim kellers reliance of a traveler a response to a deobandi who gave a fatawa that dealing in interest in india was permissible because it was dar al harb. Though shaykh nuh ha mim keller had a response to it (i believe he quoted another alim im too lazy to get the book), so perhaps its something that some hanafis believe. Allaahu alim.

[AlHindi]

It is amazing, people apply the ahkam of dar al harb only when it suits their worldly life. Though Dar ul 'Uloom Deoband doesn't see India as Dar al Harb, they call it as "motherland" with the consensus of Hindus.

[hearandobey]

bro ahlussunnah, i'm a sister. if you have time to quote the reference or know of any links discussing the issue, that would be great inshallah.

al-hindi, the "shaykh" was talking about UK specifically, although the same principle applies...

[AlHindi]

the same principle applies if both Birtania and Hind are Dar al Harb,
but I don't think they are so because of same reason.
Hind is Dar al Harb because it is an occupied land and in the past Muslims ruled over it, and Britania is Dar al Harb because it has invaded and occupied other Muslim lands and supports war against Muslims, any disagreement?

[AlHindi]

And I forgot to say, the principle is, the Interest money you can take is not Halaal as interest itself, but it is Halaal considering it as Ghaneemah (war booty). As in any way there is no sanctity of lives and property of Ahl al Harb.

[AlHindi]

• The permissibility of taking Ribā from the Harbīs in Dār Al-Harb, with their satisfaction. Look to “As-Siyar Al-Kabīr”, 4/1486, and what follows. And some of the contemporary (people) based the permissibility of the Muslim placing his money in foreign banks and taking interest – Ribā – upon that. And the opinion of the Ahnāf is outweighed, rather invalid. Look, concerning this, to “Al-Mughnī Wash-Sharh Al-Kabīr”, 4/162-163, “Al-Majmū’”, by An-Nawawī, 9/391-392, “Al-Umm”, by Ash-Shāfi’ī, 7/357-358, and “Kash’shāf Al-Qinā’’’, by Al-Bahūtī, 3/271.

http://tibyan.wordpress.com/2008/01/24/ahkam-ad-diyar-more-shar%e2%80%99i-rulings-which-are-based-upon-the-difference-of-the-diyar/

[Abu Maryam PK]

Bismillah
Al-Hidaya by Al-Murghyanani is a work in hanafi fiqh by a central asian hanafi scholar of the old. His grandson was mufti under mahmoud ghaznavi [tarikh ibn khaldoon, quoting from memory though]. "alauddin Ibn Al-Turkimani al-hanafi's [writer of jauhar al-naqi sharah al-baihaqi; an extremely partisan hanafi] student Al-Zaila'ee [very less partial than his predecessor] made a takhrij of al-hidaya called Nasb al-rayah. Ibn Hajar then summarized it in Al-Dirayah. Both of them found many fabricated ahadith in al-hidaya [see ahadith al-hidaya by sh irshadul haq athari]. Overall, the book has no chain of narration from Imam Abu Hanifa or his students to Al-Murghyanani. So it is wrong to assume that whenever al-hidaya says 'abu hanifa said this', that it is what he actually said. However al-hidaya is the handbook of our deobandi brothers and barelvis too today and it is the default gospel truth these days. Muhammad bin hasan and yusuf al-qaadhi rahimahumallah's books are ignored, but taken up when 'required'. Overall it is a sad affair how 'fatawas' are written in hanafi schools in indo-pak these days. Besides their average 'scholars' [completing 8 years of education] are likely to not know even ahadith of bukhari and Muslim.

[Tauheed]

Asalaam alaikum,
these biddati's are warped and twist the Akhaam. He has come out with all sorts previously (if I got the right person, the one with a turban and glasses as I remember he used to come Islam channel about 2 years ago). This is not the Hanafi position as the Deobandis don't allow this. I was speaking to this estate agent and he was citing this same 'sheikh' for the justification of mortgages. But you have warped people in all Madhabs for example Judai is supposed to be a claiment to Salafiyah hence you will find some Salafis with trimmed beards.

[Abu Maryam PK]

Bismillah
Correct Tauheed. Barelviism is ibleesism. However, about some of these heelas(tricks), some do exist in some madhahib and imam bukhari wrote kitab al-hiyal against that. Also see 'allam al-muwaqqa'een by ibn qayyim. Salafiyyah is sticking to the Quraan and Sunnah wherever available. U can still be a salafi if u take from the hanafi madhab in what conforms to the Quraan and Sunnah. A person who trims his beard is not salafi, at least in that respect. Similarly a person doing these heelas is not a salafi in any respect, even if he has a full beard. Infact those who invent these, their islam is doubtful, by making the shar'eeah a plaything

[Tauheed]

insha Allah you are well akhi, do you happen to have the refferences for the Hadith that are supposed to be fabricated as I would be interested to know about them. Who is the author of the book who higlighted these fabrications, what thought/group is he with?

[Abu Maryam PK]

Bismillah
Sh Irhsadul Haq Athari is ahle hadith in faisalabad, and has some important research papers in urdu and arabic, including the famous musnad al-sarraj.

Al-Zaila'ee who had the earliest work in this was of 7th century and was a hanafiite.
Ibn Hajar needs no intro [wink]

[ibnfaruk]

Assalamualaikum to all, How is it that we have moved from Riba to who is not a Salafi, it was said;

'A person who trims his beard is not salafi, at least in that respect.'

'But you have warped people in all Madhabs for example Judai is supposed to be a claiment to Salafiyah hence you will find some Salafis with trimmed beards.'

I am trying to understand what you mean by the first statement, is it that, if one trims his beard he no longer belongs to Salafia or he is not Salafi with regards to the beard. That means he is Salafi except for his beard, his beard is not Salafi, nor on the path of the Salaf, his ijtihad is wrong therefore we expell his beard from Salafia, not him, am i right?

So what do we do with those ulama who say it is permissible to trim the beard? What do we say of Hasan al Basri, Ibn Sereen, Tawous, Mujahid and Ibrahim al Nakhaee of whom it is narrated that they all trimmed their beards.

Brother Tauheed, what is the use of bringing Shaikh Judai into this discussion, he has more right to Salafia then most of the shabab on this site if not all, if you think his ideas are warped, why not ask him for his adilah, if you need his email i will happily give it to you.

Salams

[Yasir]

wa’alaikum as-salaam,these biddati's are warped and twist the Akhaam.... Do you even know what you’re talking about? Have you read the discussion in the books of fiqh to correctly appreciate what is being said?But you have warped people in all Madhabs for example Judai is supposed to be a claiment to Salafiyah hence you will find some Salafis with trimmed beards.Sh. al-Juday’s research as a muhaddith (which incidentally I expect is an approach to fiqh favoured by those focussed on ‘Ilm al-Hadeeth (?)) makes him warped?

[Tauheed]

Wa alaikum asalaam,

Please provide the refferences for what you mentioned about the likes of hasan al basri as I doubt that very much as there must be a misunderstanding. In regards to Judai then one of his students has explained his opinion regarding the beard. Judai is of the opinion that the Akhaam change from place to place. This is based on the fact the imaam Shafi had one set of Fiqh in Kufa and changed his Fiqh in Egypt. However the fact is that he did change his Fiqh because he moved to different place rather he came across other scholars which made him revaluate his opinions and therefore he changed them. Based on the above he says the norm in the time of prophet was to keep a beard however in the British soceity the norm is to keep a beard hence you don't keep a beard.
Akh in these times of confusion the safety lyes with making sure the opinion given conforms with that of the Salaf, otherwise we open the doorway to much fitna.

[Yasir]

Riba in Dar-ul-Harb
By Mufti Taqi Usmani

Q1.) Is it permissible to obtain an interest based loan for a home in America on the basis that America is Dar-ul-Harb? I understand that a Mufti from Deoband gave a fatwa saying it is permissible for Muslims in India to give and receive loans on interest since India is Dar-ul-Harb. If it is permissible, on what basis and are there any restrictions? This is a very big issue in the US since Muslims cannot purchase homes on interest, there are no interest free banks and rentals for flats are the same as paying mortgages. [Junaid Noormohamed. Chicago, IL, USA]

A1.) Although some past jurists were of the vew that riba transactions with non-Muslims in Dar-ul-Harb are not impermissible yet this minority view did never find favour with the bulk of the Muslim jurists throughout the world. Their main argument is that the prohibitions imposed by the Holy Quran are of universal nature and do not differ from country to country. For example, drinking or selling wine to non-Muslims in a non-Muslim country is as prohibited as it is in a Muslim country. Likewise adultery and prostitution in a non-Muslim country is as impermissible as in a Muslim country. The case of riba is not different on this score. Its prohibition stands operative throughout the world, therefore, it is not allowed for a Muslim to transact on the basis of riba even when he is in a non-Muslim country which is termed as Dar-ul-Harb. Therefore, it is not permissible for Muslims living in the Western countries to enter into a loan transaction based on interest even for the purpose of acquiring a home. That is why Muslims in these countries are trying to establish their own institutions for house financing. A number of such institutions have been established in North America and U.K.

Q2.) Please clarify for me the exact Hanafi position on the taking of interest from the kuffar in dar-ul-harb. Is it permissible to take advantage of the interest offered freely by these people or not? What do the ulema say about the passages in Fathul Qadeer and Shami which appear to state that the Hanafi position (at least that of tarfain) is that it is permissible to take advantage of this when the benefit is for the Muslim? If it is not permissible then please explain these texts and the hadith "la riba bain al harbi wal Muslim" on which they are based.

If someone takes interest from the kuffar on this ruling is he committing haram or makrooh act? If it is permissible then can this money be used to fund the activities of Muslims in these countries for the sake of deen such as setting up Muslim schools etc. I do not require a fatwa but merely the opinion of the ulema such as Mufti Taqi Sahib, as I realize that sometimes their opinions may be different from the legal fatwa which is required for the people. [Molvi Nazim Ali]

A2.) Transaction of interest with the non-Muslims in Darul Harb was allowed by Imam Abu Hanifa subject to certain conditions but the majority of the Fuqaha including the Hanafi jurists have not accepted it and the Fatwa has always been given on its impermissibility. You can find full discussion on this subject in the detailed treatise written by Maulana Zafar Ahmad Usmani under the title "Kashf-al-Dujah" which is published in 3rd volume of Imdad-ul-Fatawa which you may please consult for the details.

However, even following the majority view of the impermissibility of Riba in Darul Harb the interest received from Darul Harb can be used for charitable purposes like helping the needy persons who are entitled to receive Zakat but in no way the amount of interest can be used for one's own benefit.Source: al-Balagh (http://www.albalagh.net/qa/riba.shtml)

[Tauheed]

my brother I doubt that the brelvis consider the UK darul harb. The other point you confirmed the deobandi opinion for interest based mortgages. Shukran.

[Tauheed]

Also compared to you my brother I don't know what I am talking about.

[Yasir]

Also compared to you my brother I don't know what I am talking about.It’s nothing personal (and I hope it has not upset you)… Yet, we should also not feel the need to be so eager to reject the existence of something we’ve not looked into thoroughly. The theoretical discussions (with their stipulations) exist, and whether alluded to by a Brailwi orator or not, objectivity is key.

[waziri]

A person who trims his beard is not salafi, at least in that respect.


What do you mean by the word trim? Do you mean someone who has a short beard ie less than a fist or someone who trims any amount? Please clarify.


wasalam

[ibnfaruk]

Assalamualaikum to all, brother here are the references, for Hasan al Basri, Ibn Sereen and Ibrahim al Nakhaee look at Ibnee Abee Shaibah vol 8/564, for Tawous the same, but 563, for Mujahid see Tafsir al Tabari, Surah Hajj verse 29.

Salams

[AlHindi]

This is not the Hanafi position as the Deobandis don't allow this.
Wa'alaikum as-salaam,

Brother, You mean taking riba from AhlalHarb by considering it as Ghanimah is not Hanafi position? I know a Deobandi scholar who says this is permissible.
So what is the correct opinion in this regard?
Why is this money not Halaal though it can be considered as Ghanimah?

[Tauheed]

Wa'alaikum as-salaam,

Brother, You mean taking riba from AhlalHarb by considering it as Ghanimah is not Hanafi position? I know a Deobandi scholar who says this is permissible.
So what is the correct opinion in this regard?
Why is this money not Halaal though it can be considered as Ghanimah?

My brother see post 16 the one Akh Yasir posted it should give an explanation of the issue Insha Allah

[Tauheed]

Assalamualaikum to all, brother here are the references, for Hasan al Basri, Ibn Sereen and Ibrahim al Nakhaee look at Ibnee Abee Shaibah vol 8/564, for Tawous the same, but 563, for Mujahid see Tafsir al Tabari, Surah Hajj verse 29.

Salams

Asalaam alaikum,
Ibn Shaybah, what chapter and print are you refering to?

[AlHindi]

JazakAllahukhairan brother Tauheed,

At the first instance I disagreed with that Deobandi scholar that taking riba is permissible in Dar al Harb but when he said that this is permissible because anyhow there is no sanctity of Ahl al Harb, then I did not know what to say. That is what I said in post #6, yet did not found its refutation.

Although some past jurists were of the vew that riba transactions with non-Muslims in Dar-ul-Harb are not impermissible yet this minority view did never find favour with the bulk of the Muslim jurists throughout the world. Their main argument is that the prohibitions imposed by the Holy Quran are of universal nature and do not differ from country to country. For example, drinking or selling wine to non-Muslims in a non-Muslim country is as prohibited as it is in a Muslim country. Likewise adultery and prostitution in a non-Muslim country is as impermissible as in a Muslim country. The case of riba is not different on this score. Its prohibition stands operative throughout the world,

Brother, I agree that these are general prohibitions but as for Ahl al Harb we know that their lives and wealth are NOT prohibited. We know in general it is forbidden to kill, plunder, but as for Ahl al Harb this is not the case.

therefore, it is not allowed for a Muslim to transact on the basis of riba even when he is in a non-Muslim country which is termed as Dar-ul-Harb. Therefore, it is not permissible for Muslims living in the Western countries to enter into a loan transaction based on interest even for the purpose of acquiring a home.

Sorry Akhi, but I do not know the detailed position, why is he applying general prohibitions in Dar al Harb and with Ahl al Harb? Is not his qiyas batil?

The argument is that whether you take their money by our own will or even if this coincides with their satisfaction, in any case this is Halaal. I mean their wealth is halaal whether it is riba or whatsoever.

You see not just taking riba with mutual agreement is haraam in general but it may be more serious to kill and loot, but in case of Ahl al Harb then these prohibitions are lifted.

So can you sum up:Why is this money not Halaal though it can be considered as Ghanimah?

JazakAllahukhairan
Wa-salaamu 'alaikum

[Abu Maryam PK]

Bismillah
What do you mean by the word trim? Do you mean someone who has a short beard ie less than a fist or someone who trims any amount? Please clarify.


I think i have been misunderstood. I meant someone who has beard less than a fist. I personally am of the opinion that it should not be trimmed at all, but to my knowledge there was no difference of opinion among the salaf in less than a fist, as per the action of ibn 'umar. If there is, i am ignorant of that.

Being not salafi in that, means that he is not following the sunnah in accordance with the understanding of the salaf in this issue, though he maybe doing that in al other aspects. Examples include sh ehsan alahi zaheer rahimahullah, who was advised against this by scholars. I think he also admitted to it as a personal failure. Nonetheless his son, sh ibtisam and all his party members i have met have full beards, a fist or more.

As for sh Juda'i i dont know the person and never made any comments about him.

[Suhaib Jobst]

The current effort to harmonize Ribaa with the Shari'a, began with the philosophical modernist school of Muhammad Abduh (d. 1905), the neo-Mu'tazilee and student of the secret Iranian Shi'ite Jamaludeen "al-Afghani" (d. 1897), both of whom were also Freemasons, and a close friend of Lord Cromer, the British colonial ruler of Egypt.

Abduh began the modern trend of legitimizing those clear matters forbidden in Islamic Law, with Western economic theories. He claimed that Ribaa should be allowed, since it allegedly benefited the economy. He also began the trend of interpreting the Qur'anic descriptions of miracles according to scientific theories, wa Na'udu Billah. (One notable example was his absurd claim that the description of the birds assaulting the army of Abraha with stones [Sura al-Fil, 105], was afflicting them with smallpox!). He was also an advocate of such Kufri groups as the Qadianis and Baha'is.

Since the issue is clear and decisive, the latest Muslim advocates of Ribaa now attempt to distinguish between the Ribaa (excess) of Fadl (surplus) and that of Nasiah (delay). So they claim that Ribaa is only haraam when it involves compound interest, while simple interest paid or charged by the banks is halal! Astaghfirullah!

Rather, the prohibition of all usurious transactions was made clear by Allah (Subhanahu wa-Ta'ala), then by the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam), was understood as prohibited by the Salaf, and finally has been the Ijma (consensus) of all Muslim scholars and the great body of scholarship.

[hifdh]

The solution is simple, since for some there is doubt in this matter:

AVOID anything that has riba involved, such as mortgage, loan, etc.
OPT FOR alternatives, such as renting, borrowing money, etc

If someone already has a mortgage it is better to have taqwa and follow the avenue that quickly takes the person out of the riba transcation situation.

As for riba being involved in all banks and transaction in the UK, so be it, what can not be avoided can not be avoided - but SURELY one must avoid where there are alternatives!

[Tauheed]

Assalamualaikum to all, brother here are the references, for Hasan al Basri, Ibn Sereen and Ibrahim al Nakhaee look at Ibnee Abee Shaibah vol 8/564, for Tawous the same, but 563, for Mujahid see Tafsir al Tabari, Surah Hajj verse 29.

Salams

asalaam alaikum,

brother can you please confirm the Ibn Shaybah reference as what you mentioned cannot be located. As for Tafseer al Tabari what you mentioned is not stated i will post what is mentioned insha allah when i get time to do so.

Also I heard from a brother that Sheikh Judai has written a book where he states that it is permissable for a muslim woman to marry a non-muslim man. Have you heard of this and do you know how he comes to this conclusion?

[Abu Qital al Muwahid]

The Hanafis are of the view that it is permissible to take riba from non-Muslims in dar al-harb, and that every contract or transaction that benefits a Muslim is valid so long as it is based on mutual consent and does not involve any kind of deceit or treachery.

Al-Kasaani said in Badaa’i’ al-Sanaa’i’ (7/132): Based on this, if a Muslim or a dhimmi enters dar al-harb peacefully, and enters into a contract with a non-Muslim or any contract that is invalid according to Islamic rulings, that is permissible according to Abu Haneefah and Muhammad (may Allaah have mercy on them). The same applies if he is a prisoner being held by them or he became Muslim in dar al-harb and did not migrate to join us, and he entered into a contract with a non-Muslim. The basis for their view is that taking riba comes under the heading of consuming wealth, and consuming the wealth of a harbi non-Muslim is permissible. That is because there is no protection for the property of a harbi non-Muslim. So the Muslim may take it provided there is no treachery or betrayal; and if the other party gives his consent there is no betrayal. End quote.

Ibn al-Hammaam said in Fath al-Qadeer (7/39): It seems that it is permissible for the Muslim to deal with riba-based transactions provided that it is the Muslim who is going to gain. End quote.

See: Tabyeen al-Haqaa’iq (4/97); al-‘Inaayah Sharh al-Hidaayah (7/38); Haashiyat Ibn ‘Aabideen (5/186).

It is clear from this that the Hanafis regard it as permissible to take riba from a kaafir who is a harbi – in dar al-harb – because his wealth is basically permissible, so it is permissible to take it with his consent by means of riba.

But as for a Muslim paying riba to a kaafir, that is not permissible.