British Muslims and Integration

[Abuz Zubair]

Since everyone seems to be talking about these issues and trying to come up with conclusions that we may or may not agree with, I think it is the right time that we take up such issues and try to answer some critical questions.

The most critical question is: "Who are we"? What is our identity? Are we British Muslims? Pakistani/Arab Muslims? Or simply Muslims? What makes us unique and different from the rest of the Muslims around the world? Yes, we do share the common beliefs and ideas, and there are still things that have made us different from each other and given us all our separate identities, and it will most probably continue in this vein.

The second question is that of integration. What do we understand by the term 'integration', and based on that, should the Muslims integrate into the society they are living in or not, and to what extent?

These are the questions we must address now, before they are addressed for us.

Any comments or ideas?

wasalam

[abdul-aziz]

Since everyone seems to be talking about these issues and trying to come up with conclusions that we may or may not agree with, I think it is the right time that we take up such issues and try to answer some critical questions.

The most critical question is: "Who are we"? What is our identity? Are we British Muslims? Pakistani/Arab Muslims? Or simply Muslims? What makes us unique and different from the rest of the Muslims around the world? Yes, we do share the common beliefs and ideas, and there are still things that have made us different from each other and given us all our separate identities, and it will most probably continue in this vein.

The second question is that of integration. What do we understand by the term 'integration', and based on that, should the Muslims integrate into the society they are living in or not, and to what extent?

These are the questions we must address now, before they are addressed for us.

Any comments or ideas?

wasalam

Assalamu Alaikum

In reply, I post an article that may be of interest.



Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem

Nationalism, Race, Culture and Islam


All Praise and All Thanks are for Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) to whom we shall all return to be judged on The Last Day.

Since my conversion/reversion to Islam, I - because of my own past and previous political involvements - have been asked many times over the years for my views regarding nationalism, race and Islam. Is, some have enquired, Islam compatible with nationalism, and/or racial identity, while others have asked whether our own native or ancestral culture is important.

For years, I have striven to answer these questions, by asking the advice of those Muslims more learned than I, by studying the Quran and Sunnah, and by studying the works of Islamic scholars. Thus I have come to understand that, for Islam, there is only Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Kufr: the lands of Islam, and the lands of Ignorance where abide the Kafiroon. In addition, as Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says:


"The most honourable of you in the sight of Allah is the one who has At-Taqwa." [49:13 Interpretation of Meaning]


Muslim Identity and Culture

A Muslim - someone who submits only to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala - should define themselves in relation to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala and His Messenger, Muhammad (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) - that is, seeking always to do what Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala has commanded, and seeking always to be aware of the perfect example of the Prophet Muhammad (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam):

"In the Messenger of Allah you have the perfect example to follow." [33:2 Interpretation of Meaning]


Thus, the primary distinction to be made, in Islam is between those who believe, and those who do not believe - between Haqq and Batil (Truth and Falsehood); between Ignorance and Islam; between the revealing of the truth (the Quran and Sunnah) and the concealment that is Kufr. Between the kuffar (the infidels) and those who are Muslim.


"The Prophet's hadith tell us to differ from the disbelievers. In fact, scholars have noted that to differ from the kuffar in their habits, dress, attitudes, practices, appearances, and so on is one of the most important parts of the Prophet's message." Sheikh Ahmad al-Ghumari: "Al-Istinfar li-ghazw al-tashabbuh bi l-kuffaar"


For a Muslim, all Muslims are their brothers and sisters - they are not judged, or categorized, according to any other criteria, such as "race". Indeed, it is perhaps true to say that there is a specific Islamic culture: a Muslim identity, created by the revealing which is the Quran and Sunnah, and manifest in Adhab Al-Islam: in the customs, the ways, the manners of Muslims. For Muslims are enjoined to behave and live in certain ways; to follow the perfect example of the Prophet Muhammad (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam).

Thus, we strive to follow the advice, the wisdom, contained in Ahadith such as the following:


"It was narrated on the authority of Abu Hariara that the Prophet (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said: Iman [faith] has over seventy branches, and modesty is a branch of Iman." (Muslim, Book1, 55)

"It was narrated on the authority of Abu Hariara that the Prophet (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said: "He who believes in Allah and the Last Day should either speak honourably or be silent. He who believes in Allah and the Last Day should be noble toward his neighbour, and he who believes in Allah and the Last Day should be a good host to his guests." (Muslim Book 1, 75)

Narrated by Abdullah bin 'Umar - Once, the Prophet of Islam (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) passed by one of the Ansar who was admonishing a man on account of his shyness. But the Prophet (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said: "Let him be, for shyness is part of Iman." (Bukhari, Book 2, 23)

'Aayeshah (Radiyallahu 'Anha) reports, that: "It was not the nature of Rasulullah (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) to talk indecently, nor did he engage himself in the use of obscene language. Nor did he shout and talk in the bazaars (which is against dignity). He did not avenge a bad deed with a bad one, but forgave it, and thereafter did not even mention it". Shamaa-il Tirmidhi Chapter 47, Number 5 (330).

What this means in respect of culture is that it is Islam which is our culture and which defines us, and it is the Quran, the Sunnah, and Shari'ah which defines our culture, which are our culture: from them we derive all we need, in terms of how we live, how we behave, in public and in private, what is lawful and prohibited, and how our communities should be. We belong to the Ummah, the community bound by submission to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala and Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala alone, and we, knowing our nature as Muslims, should strive to follow only the perfect and complete Way of Al-Islam. Anything else is surely a moving-away from the Right Path which Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala in His Mercy and Compassion has bestowed upon us.


"This Book which We have revealed is a Blessing - therefore follow it and be honourable so that you may receive mercy." [6:155 Interpretation of Meaning]

"The genesis of truth is Allah alone, so do not be among those who do not believe." [3:60 Interpretation of Meaning]

"Correct guidance is the guidance of Allah." [3:73 Interpretation of meaning]

"And We have sent you (Muhammad) only as a mercy for the Alamin." [21:107 Interpretation of Meaning]

"Be loyal and do your duty to Allah; fear Him and always speak with honour. He will direct you to do honourable deeds and will forgive your mis-deeds. And whosoever obeys Allah and His Messenger will achieve the greatest achievement of all." [33:70-71]



Nationalism and Racialism are 'Asabiyyah

Expressed simply, for Muslims nationalism is 'asabiyyah. 'Asabiyyah is a loyalty to, or a feeling of kinship with and a belonging to, some group, or grouping, distinguished as that grouping is by some criteria established by some person, or idea, or non-Islamic way. 'Asabiyyah is a dividing or division of people according to limits, or boundaries, or standards which are not Islamic. Why are they not Islamic? Because these limits, boundaries or standards do not derive from Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala but instead belong to Jahilliyah, the Ages of Ignorance. In addition, 'asabiyyah demands or implies two things: first, obedience and loyalty to other than Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala and such loyalty obedience is at best ignorance, and at worst a setting up of some idea, or ideal, or way, or loyalty, or group to compete with Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala; second, 'asabiyyah demands or implies judging others and ourselves by other than what Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala has revealed:


"And whosoever does not judge by what Allâh has revealed, such are the Kâfiroon." [5:44 Interpretation of meaning]


As Muslims, our standards are Quran and Sunnah, and these alone. Our examples are Muslim ones - that is, those who strive to adhere to the Quran and Sunnah, and who strive to follow the noble, the honourable example of the Prophet Muhammad (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam).

In nationalism, a person is judged by their nationality, or their "race" (their outward appearance) and is supposed to give allegiance to their "nation" and its leaders, government (or rulers) and representatives, to obey or abide by the human-made and thus fallible laws made by such people and such national Institutions. In addition, such nationalism - and the racialism which often underlies it - is often said to define a person's identity and a person is mostly expected to feel some sense of pride in belonging to such a group, and to desire to defend it.


"It is known by necessity in the Deen of the Muslims and by the agreement of all the Muslims that whoever follows a Shari'ah other than the Shari'ah of Muhammad (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) then he is a Kaffir and it is like the Kufr of the one who believes in some of the Book and disbelieves in some of the Book." Sheikh ul-Islam Ibn Taimiyyah: Al-Fataawaa, Vol. 28/524

In truth, 'asabiyyah divides Muslims, and takes them away from that simple submission to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala which is Islam. In Islam, loyalty - the essence of Shahadah - is only to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala, and His Messenger (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and those, such as an Ameer or Khalifah, who are Muslim and who follow only the guidance of Quran, Sunnah and Shari'ah. Any other following, or loyalty (bay'ah), or adherence, is not Islamic: rather, it is a negation of one's Islam.


It is narrated by Abu Dawud that the Messenger of Allah (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said, "He is not one of us who calls for 'asabiyyah, or who fights for 'asabiyyah or who dies for 'asabiyyah." (Hadith 4456)

"Do not be like those who were divided and who differed after those clear Signs were given to them." [3:105 Interpretation of Meaning]

"Do not follow anyone except he who adheres to your Way of Life." [3:73 Interpretation of Meaning]

"Because obedience is a form of worship, it is not allowed to obey anyone unless it conforms with obedience to Allah and His Messenger (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam)." Sheikh Muhammad Abdul-Wahhaab "Kitaab At-Tawheed"

Narrated By Abu Hurayrah: The Prophet (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) said: "Allah, Tabarak wa'tala, has removed from you the pride of Jahilliyah and its boasting about ancestors. A person can be either an honourable believer or an ignoble sinner. You are sons of Adam, and Adam came from dust. Let the people cease to boast about their kin and kin-folk." Abu Dawud, Book 36, 5097


Furthermore, those who uphold nationalism, and/or such things as race, set themselves and their ways up as a Taghut. That is, they exceed the proper, honourable, limits, the bounds, set by Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala - they follow where these ways of Ignorance lead them, and expect obedience and conformity to these ways.


"The one who judges without referring to the Quran is a taghut." Sheikh ul-Islam Ibn Taimiyyah: Majmo' al-Fataawaa, Part 28, 201.

"(A taghut is) every one who exceeds exceeded their limits (whether they are) worshipped, followed or obeyed. So, the taghut of any people is the one, or the thing, who or what they make as a judge besides Allah and His Prophet, or who or which they worship, ignoring Allah, or who or which they follow without taking any consideration of Allah, or who or which they obey in a matter where they do not know whether it is in obedience to Allah". Ibn al-Qayyim: E'lam Al- Muwaaqi'een, Part 1, 50.

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut. So therefore fight against those friends of Shaitaan." [ 4: 76 Interpretation of Meaning.]


We have been created by Allah that we might be tested, and earn the right to enter Paradise. He created us that we might know, discover, and find, His Signs on this Earth and in the Cosmos: through these Signs we will come to know ourselves, our Rabb, and our own Muslim nature.


"Among His Signs are the creation of the heavens and this Earth and the living beings He has scattered through both of them." [42:29 Interpretation of Meaning]

"This present life is only like water which We send down from the clouds so that the luxuriant herbage sustaining man and beast may grow; until when the Earth puts on its lovely garment and becomes adorned, and its people believe that they are its masters - down then comes Our scourge upon it by night or in broad day, laying it waste as though it had not blossomed yesterday. Thus We make plain our Signs to thoughtful men." [10: 24-25 (Interpretation of meaning]

Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala says: "We made you into diverse peoples and diverse cultures that you may discover one another." [49:13 Interpretation of Meaning] Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala divided us initially into these groups not so we could ally ourselves with them to the exclusion of Islam, but so we might understand them as among His Signs - and so go beyond them to the simple submission of Islam, becoming one Ummah. For He also says in that Ayat: "The most honourable of you in the sight of Allah is the one who has At-Taqwa." That is - the one who submits wholly, without reservation, to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala alone; who follows the perfect example of the Prophet Muhammad (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam); who avoids imitating the kuffar in thought, deed, appearance, behaviour and manner; and who understands nationalism and all forms of racialism - all things which divide the Ummah - as 'asabiyyah: as belonging to Jahilliyah, the Ages of Ignorance and thus a sign of the kuffar.



May Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) protect us from all forms of Al-asabiyyah Al-Jahiliyyah, forgive us for our mistakes, and guide us to and keep us on the Right Path.

Allah (Subhanahu wa Ta'ala) knows best.


Abdul-Aziz ibn Myatt
28 Jumaadi Al-Thaani 1425

[Abuz Zubair]

JazaakumAllahu Khairan bro 'Abdul-'Aziz for your input.

I fundamentally agree with you, that surely what distinguishes us from the rest of the world community is our faith, which gives no credence to race, colour, language, nation or tribe.

However, the Shari'ah still recognises the diversity of cultures within the Ummah. For example, a considerable amount of Fiqhi rulings are based around cultural values, such as the dowry deserved by the bride according to her culture and status. Similarly, in marriage, Shari'ah has this concept of kafa'ah (suitability) between the bride and groom in order for the marriage to be successful. This concept of suitability could range from social status, to cultural values.

For example, Pakistan has a diverse culture with Balochis, Sindhis, Punjabis and Pathans. Intermarriages between two cultures in Pakistan can often become a recipe for disaster due to the inevitable culture clash between the spouses or their families. Whereas the British-Pakistanis often do not carry their parent's Pakistani cultural diversity, and in fact they are more British than they are Punjabis or Pathans, and hence, less chance of a culture clash in their intermarriages.

Many Islamic laws, apart from being drawn directly from the texts of the Quran and the Sunnah, are also drawn from 'Urf – or custom/tradition/culture which by its nature is geographically diverse.

In that sense, Shari'ah gives us – as Muslims born and bread in Britain – a British-Muslim identity.

Apart from the Shari'ah aspect, we are culturally different from the rest of the Muslims around the world, just as they are different from each other, and this is what identifies us amongst the world Muslim community, as British Muslims.

To give you an example; Muslims brought up in this country have inherited certain qualities from the British culture, such as showing gratitude, politeness and courtesy. Although these values are in fact Islamic values, unfortunately, they are rarely noticed in the Muslim world. Whereas we inherited these qualities from the British society before we even began practising Islam, and this is what makes us British Muslims. And being honest with ourselves, we have to give credit where it is due, and honour and respect the good aspects of British culture and society.

What it does not mean, however, is that we prefer British culture over other cultures and civilisation. This is the 'Asabiyah (partisanship) which is condemned in Islam. But what we need to acknowledge is that there is diversity of cultures, within the Ummah, and Islam is not here to eradicate that, but to recognise and regulate it.

Btw, it's good to get in this discussion with someone like yourself who has dedicated a good portion of his life to this topic!

wasalam

[abdul-aziz]

Assalamu Alaikum


JazaakumAllahu Khairan bro 'Abdul-'Aziz for your input.

I fundamentally agree with you, that surely what distinguishes us from the rest of the world community is our faith, which gives no credence to race, colour, language, nation or tribe.

However, the Shari'ah still recognises the diversity of cultures within the Ummah.

Yes, but am I right in believing that our Islamic, our Muslim, identity - our culture as Muslims - is more important, and we should strive to identity more as Muslims, and only Muslims?



Btw, it's good to get in this discussion with someone like yourself who has dedicated a good portion of his life to this topic!

wasalam


Yes, until Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala in his Mercy guided me to the Right Path at last, Alhamdulillah!

What I have found wonderful - well one of the many things! - about Islam is the real sense of a shared culture, a Muslim identity. A real sense of belonging.

I took my Shahadah at a Mosque where most of the brothers were from Pakistan - and they were so pleased about my reversion, so accepting that I felt the beauty of Islam in that moment, at that place: felt it in my heart. Before then, my understanding Islam had been rather "intellectual". Ever since then, I have again and again witnessed the truth that there is an Islamic identity which transcends our own cultural backgrounds, as when recently I was in Egypt and met some brothers for the first time. We were simply Muslims - not Egyptian, or British - joined by our respect and love for the Prophet Muhammad (salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and our desire to submit only to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. What differences we had were in fact not noticable - because Islam provided us with a common set of guidelines: how we should greet each other; how we should eat; how we should conduct ourselves. The words of our prayers. And so on.

Maybe if we strived to follow the guidance of Quran and Sunnah more what differences do exist for some (or many) would get smaller.

[Abuz Zubair]

Yes, but am I right in believing that our Islamic, our Muslim, identity - our culture as Muslims - is more important, and we should strive to identity more as Muslims, and only Muslims?
Well, that's the point. Our identity is not complete by just calling ourselves Muslims and Muslims only. There are still many things that differentiate us from the rest of the Muslims around the world. There are still things that make us British in many ways – whether we like it or not. The fact that we speak English, in an English accent, itself gives us our own identity. Moreover, Islamic law itself recognises this cultural diversity and respects it.

Maybe if we strived to follow the guidance of Quran and Sunnah more what differences do exist for some (or many) would get smaller.

Yes, those cultural differences where the Quran and Sunnah have spoken would get smaller. But there will always remain hundreds of other cultural differences that haven’t been dealt with in the Quran or the Sunnah explicitly. Rather, Allah, from His Wisdom, left those culture differences, and these are the sort of differences we must learn to respect, and recognise that the role of Islam is not solely to eradicate those differences, but to regulate them.

And Allah knows best.

wasalam

[Abu_Tashfeen]

bismillaah

assalaamu alaykum

r we british muslims or r we muslims living in britain?

and what of the validity of us living here in the first place.... the opinion in islaam of the scholars. there is an opinion that we should only be here to give da3wah... other than that we shouldnt be here on a permanant basis... but thats an opinion...

i feel ashamed to associate myself with britain.

im a britain living in britain... but dont call me a british muslim.... in my eyes it associates to much 3asibiyyah than i can handle...

wallaahu a3lam

[Abuz Zubair]

Abu Tashfeen:

You said:
"are we british muslims or are we muslims living in britain?"
Let us picture what we mean by 'a Muslim living in Britain' and a 'British Muslim'.

A Muslim living in Britain, refers to anyone who is a Muslim by faith, and is a resident in Britain for whatever reason, and for whatever period. This includes reverts, as much as it includes Muslims from KSA, Syria, Pakistan and other countries, who only plan to stay in Britain for 4 years or so for education purposes.

A British Muslim, however, is more specific than the first category. This is because it includes native English Muslims, Muslims from various ethnic backgrounds who have more in common with the British culture than their own original cultural backgrounds. An example of that is that many of us raised up in Britain find it very difficult to fit into our countries of origin. This is why many of those who left Britain to settle abroad in their countries of origin, or other Muslim countries, came back to Britain simply because they couldn't fit into those countries and cultures, nor were they fully accepted. This is one of the reasons why the new generation of British Muslims would rather marry their own kind (i.e. British sisters), than go to their countries of origin to get married, for better understanding amongst the couples.

This category, does not include all Muslims living in Britain, such as the overseas students, because their stay in the UK is not long enough for them to be categorised as 'British Muslims', just as a British Muslim living in Saudi Arabia for four years or more, does not make him a Saudi Muslim – even if he is given the Saudi citizenship, because he is essentially different to the native Saudi Muslims, culturally, mentally and in many other ways.

Feeling ashamed or proud of associating ourselves with Britain has little to do with this issue, for many native English nowadays are not proud to call themselves British, due to Britain's role in the so-called 'War on Terror'.

As for the issue of Hijrah, then yes; majority of the scholars are of the opinion that if a Muslim is not able to practise his religion, then it becomes obligatory upon him migrate to a land where he is able to practise his religion, otherwise, it is always Mustahab.

However, looking at our situation practically, perhaps Britain and other western countries are safer for Muslims to live in than many Muslim countries. However, the whole issue of migration differs from person to person, and people should not make a general ruling and apply on everyone equally.

As for the 'Asabiyah connotations attached to the term 'British Muslim', well, it is only a matter of identity, not a matter of pride or prejudice. Just as you have in the world today Pakistani Muslims, Syrian Muslims, Palestinian Muslims, or as we had in the past, Egyptian Muslims, Shaami Muslims, Indian Muslims, Turkish Muslims etc. It is just a matter of identity, and nothing more, wallahu alam.

wasalam

[Zahira_L]

Assalamu Alaykom wa RahmatuLLAH Brothers and Sisters,</p>

This topic is very easy actually.******* I am an American revert to Islam since Nov 2000 alhamduliLLAH.******* Just after the Sept 11 events, many of my brothers and sisters in my community had a wide range of emotions.******* Mostly afraid, and the initial reaction was to hide their identity.******* This lasted about week.******* Many sisters decided that they cover because it is a command from Allah Subhannahu wa Ta'ala, and they would not ask anyone to go outside naked, so many sisters who took off their hijabs, returned to them alhamduliLLAH, asking for protection from Allah Subhannahu wa Ta'ala.******* The ressonating voices rang out, we are Muslims for the Sake of Allah, and to save ourselves in the akhira.******* Not for you or anyone else.******* Some sisters were beaten, some were stalked and raped, some had rocks thrown at their heads, and those who had children with them - their children would also experience mistreatment.******* The men would be at work in their businesses and such, and several died as they were shot at from outside of their stores.******* Some mosques and businesses were burned to the ground.******* To this day the sisters of deen did not take their hijabs off again.******* Many of us were fired from jobs because of our hijabs.******* I was one of them, and I was single at that time.******* I did not give up my hijab.******* Allah Subhannahu wa Ta'ala is the Best of Providers, and He Provides the Best to His slaves.</p>

The Qur'an teaches us, and even the life of the Prophet Sal Allahu Alayhi wa Sallam shows us by example, that by living our lives within******* the boundaries of Islam, as good and pious Muslims, we would not go against the law of any people (country), unless it is contrary to the teaching of Islam.******* Naturally Islam respects all life and rights of others, and has laws governing those who follow this deen, that are just and good.******* </p>

Therefore, believing in La illaha ill Allah, and His book the Qur'an, we also have to accept that He has said, do not fear what any man can do to you, but fear Allah and the Last Day.******* Because when He touches you with a thing, then there is no man can save you from it.******* </p>

Many American Muslims look at the situation in this way.******* First we are Muslims for the Sake of Allah.******* Then we are Americans, with every right to be here.******* The best part is we are dressed as Muslims when we say we are Americans, and this burns the ears of those who would like to think that Muslims are immigrants.******* So we enjoy it enormously to tell someone &quot;oh, I'm American and I speak english&quot;.******* You should see the shock on their faces sometimes.******* You would think that they owned the country, when everything in this earth including them, belongs to Allah, and will return to Him one day.</p>

So why the dilema of identity.******* Allah Subhannahu wa Ta'ala called us Muslims before Islam was given to us.******* Even placed the Prophet Sal Allahu Alayhi wa Sallam in the middle of a whole world of non-believers, while he was the only Muslim.******* He made it and had no question about his place nor his identity.******* </p>

May Allah Subhannahu wa Ta'ala grant us more knowledge of deen, and make us among those of Jannah.</p>

Assalamu Alaykom
Zahira</p>

[Abuz Zubair]

First we are Muslims for the Sake of Allah.******* Then we are Americans, with every right to be here.******* The best part is we are dressed as Muslims when we say we are Americans, and this burns the ears of those who would like to think that Muslims are immigrants.</p>

Good point.</p>

We have a similar problem here in the UK, and often I think Muslims don't know how to deal with it effectively.</p>

Often we are told on chat shows, radio programmes, Have Your Says, that Muslims are always referred to as 'them'. This needs to change, and we need to emphasise on the fact that we are as much British as everyone else in the country, and therefore, deserve all the rights given to all citizens of this country. This*******means that Islamophobic comments should not be tolerated, Muslim sisters should be respected for their beliefs and modesty, and not called names on the streets, that applicants are not discriminated against because of their Muslim names, etc.</p>

We have to put the message across that this country should accept us for what we are and what we believe, instead of trying to modify our thoughts, beliefs and values, or treating us at outsiders.</p>

[abudurrah]

i have been taught always that a muslim can never be british
because it is a direct contradiciton

and i uphold that view (depending on the definition of British)

the reason why i uphold this view is because british can have many different meanings to different people
for example the official understanding that having a British passport means being british, some people believe that going to the pub means youre british (honestly they refer to the soap 'eastenders' lifestyle)
another example is about a muslim sister with hijaab who was smoking and when asked why is she doing haraam she replied that she is british, i cannot explain why she said that, but it shows that she understood british to mean something else.

You will also notice that it was not enough for the media to just say that the 4 muslims invoved in 7/7 were just British but they added the fact that they were born and bred in britian, because this seems to make people think they were more british then just the mormal british (im sorry if anyones confused)
I just want to show that the issue is much more broader then it has been laid out so far

Also if you watch the news thoroughly one will notice when ever they talk about the drinking problem and the people puking up on the streets and fighting late night near clubs, they also call this a british culture and they comapre it with other cultures.
Which is true british do have their own culture but i believe good muslims have not adopted this British culture
Abu zubair said
''Muslims brought up in this country have inherited certain qualities from the British culture, such as showing gratitude, politeness and courtesy. Although these values are in fact Islamic values, unfortunately, they are rarely noticed in the Muslim world. Whereas we inherited these qualities from the British society before we even began practising Islam, and this is what makes us British Muslims. And being honest with ourselves, we have to give credit where it is due, and honour and respect the good aspects of British culture and society."

This may be how he sees it, i went to a kafir school and if i hadnt been taught about islam i would be swearing a lot, most of my muslim friends back then are now like the kuffar swearing and doing filthy things i dont see them anymore
i have met british non -muslims who are polite and show gratitude but trust me its really rare now, im in the dawah field im talking form experience





IN REALTION TO MUSLIMS AND WHAT BRITISH MEANS
The meaning that i took was was the one which the media took since that was the key issue which people wanted to know
it happened after 7/7 that there was a talk skow on sky news with muslims and they were asked whether the muslims felt british and the host defined british as 'giving full allegiance to the queen' along with that includes supporting your british fellow countrymen when they are engaged in a war whether you agree with the war or not

so i realised for sure that this the defintion that the media wish to use when they ask whether muslims are British or not

and so i believe that there is a contradiction between being muslim and being British

but if British means that one was (born) and bred in britain and understands the british culture by experience of interaction then i am british muslim

[Umm]

The second question is that of integration. What do we understand by the term 'integration', and based on that, should the Muslims integrate into the society they are living in or not, and to what extent?

When I hear the word integration, I understand it to mean compromising our beliefs to abandon what is not politically correct. In fact, I understand it to mean put British values over religious ones.

Muslims do not have a future in the UK. We are lambs trying to camouflage ourselves amongst the wolves.

[Abuz Zubair]

I agree that there is a huge amount of ambiguity involved in the term 'integration'.

Perhaps, a better word should be 'engagement', and I personally feel that the Muslims have often isolated themselves and not engaged much with the wider community, to their own disadvantage.

As for the future of Muslims in the UK, as a matter of fact, wherever we have a huge Muslim settlement in any particular part of the world, they are there to stay. Such a huge population cannot be moved around, nor massacred. They are there to stay. Muslims have now become a part of English heritage. The struggle now is not to eliminate us physically, but to defeat us ideologically. It is time that we come to terms with the reality and acknowledge what is required of us.

[AbuAhmad]

Such a huge population cannot be moved around, nor massacred. They are there to stay.

I disagree. I think they will massacre us, or atleast attempt to in the near future. Before every genocide, there is propaganda to brainwash the population so the genocide doesn't seem wrong. The Western governments are at that stage at the moment and are just waiting until everyone or most of their population is brainwashed that Muslims are the enemy, then they'll do what Hitler did.

Remember, what Hitler did was not in the era of savages or in the days of ignorance. It was in modern times. Many of our parents were around then.

So before they start butchering us, we must do something.

WSalaam.

[morbius]

I would like to offer my humble opinion on this matter.

To oversimplify things a bit, there is something called “law of the land” and in secular society it’s the highest law there is. It goes above what some feel to be “divine law”. One can live in a particular land only if he respects obeys its laws.

So, any Muslim has every right to live in whatever land he is, as long as he obeys its laws during his stay in it. Those who find themselves unable to follow laws of the land they live in should find themselves home elsewhere.

Couple of years ago I had an offer to work temporarily in Kuwait. Money was great and I would have accepted it, but the deal fell through at the last moment.
While in Kuwait, I would have to work on Sunday, refrain from drinking and not go around in shorts, for such are local laws. Of course, I would obey and respect them during my stay, regardless of what I think about them.

[SAINT GEORGE OF ARABIA]

I disagree. I think they will massacre us, or atleast attempt to in the near future. Before every genocide, there is propaganda to brainwash the population so the genocide doesn't seem wrong. The Western governments are at that stage at the moment and are just waiting until everyone or most of their population is brainwashed that Muslims are the enemy, then they'll do what Hitler did.

Remember, what Hitler did was not in the era of savages or in the days of ignorance. It was in modern times. Many of our parents were around then.

So before they start butchering us, we must do something.

WSalaam.

assalaam alaykum
brother abu ahmad we arent jews...... they wont try to kill us. only a fool will even think about making this country a land of jihaad.
any of you ever thought that perhaps this is another expedition like andalusia, indonesia or west africa? we might not live to see it
the only fight we have here is battle against false knowledge or lack of it. those who have the will could travel with their families for few years for their children to get knowledge. we should prepare our kids as the scholars of tomorrow.
i think it's wrong for some scholars to say we should close all these masjids and leave..... why not build more? and more? buy off some of these pubs and turn them into islamic youth club or something.
british muslims are here to stay.

maa salaama

[Abuz Zubair]

Abu Ahmad, I believe we need to study the history of various Muslim minorities in the world and then figure out how to survive. If we look at ourselves as an isolated case, then yes, things do look grim. If you put everything in perspective and compare us to the rest of the Muslim minorities, then you would realise that things are not that bad after all.

There have been massacres in Thailand, China and various other countries where Muslims have settled in huge numbers. Yet, they continue to live and cling to Islam. A few individuals packing their bags and leaving to another country is not going to solve the problems for the rest of us in the UK. Again, as I said previously, practically has to be a major ingredient in our thinking.

Morbius, the problem with your argument, as you stated, is that it is over simplified.

[hkrespect]

Abu Tashfeen:

As for the 'Asabiyah connotations attached to the term 'British Muslim', well, it is only a matter of identity, not a matter of pride or prejudice. Just as you have in the world today Pakistani Muslims, Syrian Muslims, Palestinian Muslims, or as we had in the past, Egyptian Muslims, Shaami Muslims, Indian Muslims, Turkish Muslims etc. It is just a matter of identity, and nothing more, wallahu alam.



asalamu alaikum

history. let us not forget the history behind all this. how the muslim ummah came to have so many nationalities/identities.

i think we all can agree that having so many nationalities/identities does not benefit the ummah, rather is goes against the whole idea of ummah.

it is very dangerous when we identify ourselves to a particular identity. to me it oozes of division.

the muslims in Britain can have a great impact on British society, but the reality is British society has had more of an impact on muslims.

Muslims in Britain have already integrated.

ws

[morbius]

Morbius, the problem with your argument, as you stated, is that it is over simplified.
Yes, I’ve stated so myself, but it can be used as a good basis for a practical, fair and reasonable solution when it comes to dealings with immigrants. If a newcomer wants to live according to the local laws, he should be allowed to do so regardless of his religion. Those who find themselves unable to live by local rules should find a place that suits them better.
For instance, if some Pakistanis keep complaining about ways of UK and want to turn UK into new Pakistan, then is it unreasonable to ask them what are they doing in UK if Pakistan is such a nice place to live?

There have been massacres in Thailand, China and various other countries where Muslims have settled in huge numbers.
But we shouldn’t also forget that in recent history we had massacres of Christians in the places where Muslims became majority (such as Armenia, Lebanon, Kosovo, etc.)

Because of religious intolerance, immigration is a complex problem. Immigration of Muslims to Europe will one day become severely limited by the governments when the growing number of “unintegrated” (in lack of a better word) Muslims starts to pose a serious threat to the domestic population. I am not against letting foreigners live among us, but we must be careful not to jeopardize our culture, way of life, or even our very lives because of it.
Only if things are let unregulated we risk massacres of the minorities. Careful immigration policies, as well as teaching children religious tolerance in schools are a “must” in the situation we are in.

[Brother_Mujahid]

I don't think the "Holocaust" example is the nessessarily the best analogy. Rather look to the events that took place in the Gujarat province in India in 2002 to see the possible problems that may await Western Muslims in the future:

http://www.islamicawakening.com/viewarticle.php?articleID=923

Here is an in observation from American Muslim author Yahya Emerick:
Well, the abuse we are suffering in the media is amazing. Americans don’t have any clue how close to becoming a nationalist dictatorship they are. Muslims and Islam are the modern Jews, who were scapegoated in Europe for centuries. Now we are the victims of suspicion and stereotyping. Anyone can make any wild charge against us, blanket all of us in suspicion, question our right to exist even! I do think it will get worse before it gets better. Americans are not immune to communal riots like they have in India, where the majority oppresses the minority shamelessly.
http://www.renderingislam.com/yemerick.htm

Though the concentration camps of the "Holocaust" could make a guest appearence:

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/concentration.html

http://www.infowars.com/cc_archive.htm

[Abuz Zubair]

hkrespect,

You are right about the Ummah being divided along the lines of nationalities. But that's beyond the point.

The point is we are born and brought up here and most of us know of no other country and culture except this. Yet, al-Hamdulillah, we are tied up to the global Umma with an ideology. So for us, it is a question of maintaining this ideology/identity as we live in Britain for some time to come.

Morbius,

The first positive step you can take in contributing to this discussion is by dropping the word 'immigrants'. I am not an immigrant, nor was my father, nor my grandfather. The latter had a British Passport issued to him by the British government in the 19th century, and he was regarded as a British citizen. I was born in the UK, and didn't migrate there.

So the first step is to stop referring to every non-white skin as an 'immigrant'.

Brother Mujahid,

The possibility of violent cultural clashes is not being denied, especially if the government and the media is actively fuelling the flames of hate against Muslims. The point being made here is that, even if it were to happen, it would not eliminate the 'Muslim problem', the way Germany failed to eliminate the 'jewish problem' after the holocaust.

We are now part of British history and future. We must come to terms with this fact and plan along these lines for the survival of our identity and beliefs.

[ibnYaseen]

I think the issue is that Muslims are unwanted as a part of Britain's future. Such a long-lasting, co-ordinated, well structured and sustained media campaign to malign the image of Muslims is only going to lead to the Muslims compromising on principles and ideals to survive in an increasingly hostile environment.

Perhaps we need to study cases where a minority have successfully convinced the mass to change negative views about them to positive ones, in a bid to draw lessons and apply them in our situation here in the UK.

Meanwhile, the media will continue to portray us negatively, how much can we keep compromising before we give-up too much of the deen?

Surely, if things reach boiling point, the only solution is to leave or face persecution?

[Abuz Zubair]

Practically is what counts...

Whether we are wanted or unwanted is beyond the point. The fact is, we are part of this heritage, whether we, or they, like it or not.

Even things reaching a boiling point would not trigger a mass migration. People will be killed, imprisoned or even gassed in groups but they would not all leave. It is impossible for a huge settlement to just get up and leave.

So our first objective is not how to change the public opinion about us. It is about how to survive. And here, I am not referring to physical survival but ideological survival, even if our physical existence were to perish.

[morbius]

The first positive step you can take in contributing to this discussion is by dropping the word 'immigrants'. I am not an immigrant, nor was my father, nor my grandfather. The latter had a British Passport issued to him by the British government in the 19th century, and he was regarded as a British citizen. I was born in the UK, and didn't migrate there.

So the first step is to stop referring to every non-white skin as an 'immigrant'.

Great deal of UK Muslims are first or second generation residents, that’s why I usually say “immigrants”. I do feel that all “legal” Muslims who live there, respect the country and obey its laws have every right to be there and must be safe from prosecution in any way.

I was born in the UK, and didn't migrate there.
Yes, and influence of Brittish culture is clearly visible on you and I mean it in a good way. Compared to other guys here, you seem more liberal, polite and well-spoken.

But accepting things from dominant cultures in time leads to loss of original identity. You already declare yourself as “British Muslim”. With couple of more generations part “British” will probably more important than the part “Muslim”. History has shown that minorities with time become integrated.
Except for Jews of course, they are indestructible, but who wants to be a Jew. :) :D

[Abuz Zubair]

Morbius,

Michael Howard would have got the press haunting you day and night if you called him a son-of-an-immigrant (which is true), let alone an immigrant.

The point is, so long as the people continue to refer to us as 'immigrants', how do they have the cheek to talk about integration?

[Umm]

Compared to other guys here, you seem more liberal, polite and well-spoken.

1st time I have ever been called liberal!

You already declare yourself as “British Muslim”.

Actually, I can't recall ever calling myself such. I would call myself British Asian, but not British Muslim, as I think that's an oxymoron. To be British, it means more than just having been born here, or having aquired citizenship. To me, it means agreeing with the British culture, and wanting to assimilate. But who wants to agree giving gays the same rights as normal human beings?
And what happens when British culture/laws contradict your religious sensibilites? Something has to give.

With couple of more generations part “British” will probably more important than the part “Muslim”. History has shown that minorities with time become integrated.
Except for Jews of course, they are indestructible, but who wants to be a Jew. :) :D

I think it is already becoming more important than the "Muslim" part. Muslims have an inferiority complex. That is why a British ex-pat can dress how he wants in any country in the world, and for the most part, retain his own culture. "When in Rome" never applied to the English abroad.

However, Muslims in the West do not feel the superiorty of Islaam in their hearts. This is why they are so apologetic.:rolleyes:

[morbius]

The point is, so long as the people continue to refer to us as 'immigrants', how do they have the cheek to talk about integration?
You insist on UK Muslims being apart of the country and not only immigrants, but it is really not relevant to my course of arguing.
Regardless whether Muslim just came in or if he is there for 10 generations, I expect the same of him – to respect the country and follow its laws. Nothing more, nothing less. If he doesn’t feel able to do so, it would be best for everybody that he goes to some place that suites him better.
Same goes for all the people in the UK, not only Asians or Muslims.

[morbius]

1st time I have ever been called liberal!

I wasn’t really talking to you, but to Abuz Zubair.

Although calling him truly liberal would be like calling burglar a locksmith, he does seem to be a lot more open-minded then the most of you guys.

But who wants to agree giving gays the same rights as normal human beings?
Hey, I dislike queers as much as the next guy, but you can’t take someone’s human rights away just because you dislike him.

And what happens when British culture/laws contradict your religious sensibilites? Something has to give.
This is indeed so. But when a Muslim moves to a European secular country, he must know and agree to its laws before entering. If he doesn’t agree to them, he shouldn’t move in. But a lot of Muslims first move in and then complain that their daughters can’t wear veil in schools.

However, Muslims in the West do not feel the superiorty of Islaam in their hearts. This is why they are so apologetic.
All the Muslims I’ve ever known personally are quite secular. A lot of them are believers, but they have abandoned some of the Islamic traditions they feel are out of place in the modern world.
The world evolves. Religions evolve with it. Clinging stubbornly to old traditions and suppressing of this natural evolution is not a good thing. Original Islam was very practical for the 7th century Arabia, but a lot has changed since then.
If we Christians blindly followed our religious traditions we’d never create all that we have. We would still live in a world full of ignorance, poverty, diseases and religious wars. Fortunately, we got smart.

[Umm]

Ah, that makes sense then, that you were referring to Abu Z. It's because you quoted what I said about being born here, but referred to him in your points.

If you "got smart", why does the world still have religious wars, diseases and poverty? And why is a religious war wrong, but one based on the protection of interests of a few justified?

As for gays, as far as I understand, that action is punishable by death under Islamic law. Doesn't mean that they don't have any rights at all, but that they do not have the right to marriage etc, as normal people have.

Look at how the UK has encouraged homosexuality and now what? They want the same rights as hetrosexuals, so one group's rights overshadows the other. A hetrosexual teacher won't be able to teach children that a man/woman relationship through marriage is any better than that of two men living together in sin.

And the UK, when it suits, is a christian country?!

[Brother_Mujahid]

Brother Mujahid,

The possibility of violent cultural clashes is not being denied, especially if the government and the media is actively fuelling the flames of hate against Muslims. The point being made here is that, even if it were to happen, it would not eliminate the 'Muslim problem', the way Germany failed to eliminate the 'jewish problem' after the holocaust.

We are now part of British history and future. We must come to terms with this fact and plan along these lines for the survival of our identity and beliefs.

I'm not disagreeing with you akhee. I just felt it prudent to make the point that I did. Muslims should be aware of what my possibly await us in the near future (may Allaah not allow it to happen). I say look at Bosnia and Gujarat as perfect examples of modern Muslim minorities.

[morbius]

If you "got smart", why does the world still have religious wars
You must ask that to the people who fight religious wars.
Most Christians today abhor the idea of the religious war and it’s been like that since secularism overpowered Church, preventing it to interfere with the politics.

It’s been over two centuries that we didn’t have a true religious war between Christians in the world. And we had a whole lot of those during the Middle Ages, when priests were allowed to meddle in the ways of running the countries.
On the other hand, look at the Muslims. Sunis and shia are killing each other every day. You still haven’t learned your lesson.
Keep your religion in your harts, but out of your government. I can not stress this enough.

diseases and poverty?
Those things are sadly also of this world and can’t be fully eradicated. Not even communism managed to do that.

As for gays, as far as I understand, that action is punishable by death under Islamic law.
So, should we kill them?

Look at how the UK has encouraged homosexuality and now what? They want the same rights as hetrosexuals, so one group's rights overshadows the other. A hetrosexual teacher won't be able to teach children that a man/woman relationship through marriage is any better than that of two men living together in sin.
Line has to be drawn somewhere. I personally am not against secular homosexual marriages, but such couples should not be allowed to adopt children. Perhaps they could are able to raise normal heterosexual children, but I’d rather not take any chances.

And the UK, when it suits, is a christian country?!
UK is above all a secular country. Christians are a largest religious group.

[morbius]

I say look at Bosnia and Gujarat as perfect examples of modern Muslim minorities.
Actually, Muslims are the largest ethnic group in Bosnia, not a minority. Speak carefully about things you do not know that much about.

[Umm]

You must ask that to the people who fight religious wars.
Most Christians today abhor the idea of the religious war and it’s been like that since secularism overpowered Church, preventing it to interfere with the politics.

It’s been over two centuries that we didn’t have a true religious war between Christians in the world.

I guess you missed the conflict in northern Ireland?
And I suppose you don't believe that the US interferred with Somalia in order to support Christian Ethiopia?

And we had a whole lot of those during the Middle Ages, when priests were allowed to meddle in the ways of running the countries.
On the other hand, look at the Muslims. Sunis and shia are killing each other every day. You still haven’t learned your lesson.
Keep your religion in your harts, but out of your government. I can not stress this enough.

Islam is not a religion. It is a complete way of life, which includes government.


So, should we kill them?


Gays should be killed according to Islamic rule, yes.

I personally am not against secular homosexual marriages, but such couples should not be allowed to adopt children. Perhaps they could are able to raise normal heterosexual children, but I’d rather not take any chances.

So you don't mind 2 men having relations with eachother? Would that be the case if one was your son?


UK is above all a secular country. Christians are a largest religious group.

If the UK is a secular country, why are they in a dilema over whether Catholic adoption agencies should be able to opt out of gay discrimination laws? If a Muslim said, "This Act is against my religion", we are told, "If you don't like the law, get out of the country".

The Queen might be a figurehead, but she is still head of the country and head of the church.

[morbius]

I guess you missed the conflict in northern Ireland?
And I suppose you don't believe that the US interferred with Somalia in order to support Christian Ethiopia?
Conflict in Northern Ireland is primarily ethnic, not religious.
US interference in Somalian conflict started long before Ethiopia moved its troops into Somalia.

Islam is not a religion. It is a complete way of life, which includes government.
History has thought us that whenever priests are allowed to rule we have suppression of scientific research, general stagnation of economy and religious wars.
Historia est mater studiorum. Those who do not learn the lessons of history are bound to repeat the same mistakes until they do.

Gays should be killed according to Islamic rule, yes.
Wow, talk about tolerant religion!

So you don't mind 2 men having relations with eachother?
As long as they do it somewhere where I can’t see them, I don’t have a problem with it. I can’t stand those gay pride parades, but what a man does in his bedroom is his own business.

Would that be the case if one was your son?
I’d be sad, but there is really nothing you can do about it.
From what I know about homosexuality, it is not really a conscience choice, but a physiological condition. Gays are born gay, possibly because of some sort of unbalanced hormonal influence on a developing brain during the life inside womb.
So, it is not their fault that they are gay. You really can’t blame a man for something that is not his fault.

If the UK is a secular country, why are they in a dilema over whether Catholic adoption agencies should be able to opt out of gay discrimination laws? If a Muslim said, "This Act is against my religion", we are told, "If you don't like the law, get out of the country".
You said it yourself, it’s a dilemma. Nothing is really black or white, there are many gray areas where we must try to find the fairest solution in accordance to our principles. Muslims too are allowed to ask special things for themselves and they should be granted in they don’t go against our secular principles.

The Queen might be a figurehead, but she is still head of the country and head of the church.
It’s a relict from the past. Whole monarchy in Britain is really remnant from the past days.

[Umm]

As long as they do it somewhere where I can’t see them, I don’t have a problem with it

Well, that's a bit of moral cowardice. So you do not feel comfortable around them? Why not, if you think that it is not their fault?

Why do you think that what a person does in privacy should be tolerated? What if it was incest or paedophilia?

Islam is a tolerant religion. Homosexuality is a crime, thus it has a prescribed punishment.

Gays are unnatural. They are a product of this depraved society. They were not made that way by God. Next paedophiles will come out with the same excuse!

When I was young there was a transvestite on our bus, as we went home from school. I come from a conservative part of west london, and so, he certainly stood out in his red and white dress, handbag, high-heels and designer stubble.

I was only 12, but even then I thought that he was a filthy perverted "man". And I remember thinking that there should be laws executing such individuals.

About 10 years later, I found those laws... when I became a Muslim.
Of course the Church can't censor them with conviction, as so many of their priests are gays as well.

Back to integration, I can't as a Muslim agree not to discriminate against homosexuals, as our Qur'an clearly tells us that they are doing something wrong.

The dilema is only due to the fact that "multicultural Britan" can't opnely admit that it is the Qur'an that they have a problem with. So they hide behind the smokescreen of fighting terrorism, when it is the pure moral fibre that Islam creates that they are opposed to.

[morbius]

Well, that's a bit of moral cowardice. So you do not feel comfortable around them? Why not, if you think that it is not their fault?

Hey, I don’t have to like them to tolerate them. I don’t particularly like seeing so many Asian Muslims in their traditional robes on the streets of European cities, but I tolerate them.

Why do you think that what a person does in privacy should be tolerated? What if it was incest or paedophilia?
There is one big distinction. Incest and paedophilia are activities that hurt the children, both physically, and what’s worse, emotionally.
Gays don’t hurt anybody.

Gays are unnatural. They are a product of this depraved society. They were not made that way by God. Next paedophiles will come out with the same excuse!
Some pedophiles tried to use such excuse in court, but it didn’t work. There could be some sort of genetic predisposition for pedofilia, but it doesn’t excuse such activity in any way. There are medications that can help people with their unnatural sexual urges and they should try to get help before doing something horrible.
When it comes to gays, I don’t think we should encourage people to treat homosexuality as normal, but we should teach them to tolerate it somewhat. Gays are not modern-day phenomenon, there are many mentionings of homosexuality in the writings of ancient Greece, Egypt and Babylon. Most famous ancient Greek poet, Sofo, was a lesbian. There are certainly many homos among Muslims, but they hide themselves fearing punishment. Our queers are only more visible, because they don’t hide any more.

When I was young there was a transvestite on our bus, as we went home from school. I come from a conservative part of west london, and so, he certainly stood out in his red and white dress, handbag, high-heels and designer stubble.

I was only 12, but even then I thought that he was a filthy perverted "man". And I remember thinking that there should be laws executing such individuals.
I can’t stand such sites either. I think that their “activities” should be restricted to the privacy of their own home.

Of course the Church can't censor them with conviction, as so many of their priests are gays as well.
Church used to kill queers in the middle ages. But church has no such authority any more.

The dilema is only due to the fact that "multicultural Britan" can't opnely admit that it is the Qur'an that they have a problem with. So they hide behind the smokescreen of fighting terrorism, when it is the pure moral fibre that Islam creates that they are opposed to.
Some of the teachings of Quran go against our secular laws. And as you said it yourself, something’s gotta give.

[Umm]

There is one big distinction. Incest and paedophilia are activities that hurt the children, both physically, and what’s worse, emotionally.
Gays don’t hurt anybody.

Morobius, what do you think about this ghastly case in Germany, where adults want to commit incest?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6424937.stm

The argument goes that their civil rights are being discriminated against. Now, you tell me that it is just Muslims who have issues with man-made laws, and man-made distinctions of what is decent or not.

Regards,
Umm.

[morbius]

Morobius, what do you think about this ghastly case in Germany, where adults want to commit incest?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6424937.stm

The argument goes that their civil rights are being discriminated against. Now, you tell me that it is just Muslims who have issues with man-made laws, and man-made distinctions of what is decent or not.

I do not really know what to think in this case.

IMHO, if they want to remain lovers, that’s their business, they are not hurting anybody by it.
But couple like this should definitely must not be allowed to have children. Risk for their health is too great.
I do not want to argue if their relationship is natural or moral, let God judge them when they meet Him.

[Umm]

Ah, so man-made laws should change to accomodate their desires, despite them chosing to disobey the law of their land. However, if a Muslim wants to oppose the Law of their land due to religious convictions, as opposed to base carnal desires, then you object!

Regardless whether Muslim just came in or if he is there for 10 generations, I expect the same of him – to respect the country and follow its laws. Nothing more, nothing less. If he doesn’t feel able to do so, it would be best for everybody that he goes to some place that suites him better.

[morbius]

Ah, so man-made laws should change to accomodate their desires, despite them chosing to disobey the law of their land. However, if a Muslim wants to oppose the Law of their land due to religious convictions, as opposed to base carnal desires, then you object!

I said that it is only my opinion of what is fair in this case. Courts of course do not rule by my opinion, but by what law says.
If Muslims feel that some law is unjust to them, they have the same right to protest against it as anyone else. If their demans are resonable and in order with the constitution of the country, there should be no reason not to make certain accomodations.

[gag order]

morbius are you british?
and/or do you live in britain?

[morbius]

morbius are you british?
and/or do you live in britain?
No, I've never been there.
I'm thinking of maybe moving there, but it will definitely not be during this year.

[gag order]

i see, your not british and your not an east european immigrant labourer in britain and not a muslim, then why are you arguing here on this thread about matters that dont concern you?

do you think an east european immigrant is somehow more british than a brown skinned british citizen?

this thread is relevant if you are:

british
or
muslim
or
both

[Umm Ahmed]

If thats the case Morbius , be prepared for the comment "Euro Trash" reaching your ears.

[morbius]

i see, your not british and your not an east european immigrant labourer in britain and not a muslim, then why are you arguing here on this thread about matters that dont concern you?

Legal issues have been mentioned here. Legal system in UK is based on the same foundations as in the rest of EU, although UK government policy is completely different than the rest of European countries and at this moment is practically an extension of Uncle Sam’s long arm.

do you think an east european immigrant is somehow more british than a brown skinned british citizen?
No.

[gag order]

no? are you sure?

then why do you refer to muslims as 'immigrants' and keep telling us to leave britian even though your not a british citizen and do not live in the UK?


One can live in a particular land only if he respects obeys its laws.
white criminals dont respect the law, can they remain in britain or is your opinion directed to just non-whites?

any Muslim has every right to live in whatever land he is, as long as he obeys its laws during his stay in it.
this applies to only muslims does it? bring us an excerpt from english law that explicitly states this.

Those who find themselves unable to follow laws of the land they live in should find themselves home elsewhere.
but you wouldnt say that to the millions of white christians who hate the law for its meddling in private affairs now would you?

morbius you are nothing but ignorant, bigoted racist who thinks he represents the UK home office just becos he is a fellow white christian from another european country.

[morbius]

white criminals dont respect the law, can they remain in britain or is your opinion directed to just non-whites?
Well, if there was a country in the world that would allow theft, that would be the place for all the thieves to relocate. Since there is no such country, we can only put them in jails.

this applies to only muslims does it? bring us an excerpt from english law that explicitly states this.
That applies to everybody. Should I be welcomed to Saudi Arabia if I am to break their laws?

but you wouldnt say that to the millions of white christians who hate the law for its meddling in private affairs now would you?
In democratic countries law is not something written in stone. Law is what most of the people want to be law.
So, if people are not happy with some law, they express their objections to it. Political parties listen to what voters have to say in order to get their votes. Laws get changed if majority is for it.

morbius you are nothing but ignorant, bigoted racist who thinks he represents the UK home office just becos he is a fellow white christian from another european country.
You suffer from usual Islamic xenophobia. You got into your head that all that is good is in the fold of Islam, so naturally all outsiders can not be good people. In your mind we are all depressed alcoholics, evil racists who think only how to do harm to the Muslims. Truth is far from that, though.

[gag order]

be grateful to everybody here for tolerating you but clearly you are a racist. little do you realize that your opinions are similar if not the same as the BNP here in the UK.

you have been thouroughly discredited and your arguments have been soundly defeated by pretty much everyone and that amuses me. a poor case you have made in the defence of your incoherent and thoughtless arguments.

[morbius]

be grateful to everybody here for tolerating you but clearly you are a racist.
How do you figure that?
Am I to say that we should import even more Asian Muslims in our lands in order not to be considered racist? How would you like it if we were to swarm your lands in the same way and demand that you change your laws in accordance to our beliefs?
Don’t do to other what you wouldn’t like him to do to you.

If you live in foreign land, you have to live by its laws, that’s how it goes. I am an immigrant myself and I don’t find this so difficult to understand.

[gag order]

our lands ?

again i am right about you bieng racist, one rule for white christian immigrants and one for asian muslim immigrants...............


If you live in foreign land........
there you go again, i am british despite my brown colour, your not british but you seem to think you have more right to britain than i do just becos you are european


you have to live by its laws
thats not an issue, we do that anyway. no point trying to hide your racism behind the facade of law and order

[Abuz Zubair]

I think some people cannot help but think in a very racist way without realising. I assume since morbius is coming from Serbia where the society is not as multi-cultural as it is in the UK, his levels of racism are not as high as ours.

So to him, like many of the rightwing people in the UK, we will always remain 'they' who 'come to our country', even if we be 3rd generation, whereas a white European will always be 'one of us', even if he cannot speak English.

Don't you find that Europeans are usually the most racist people on earth? Or am I mistaken?

[morbius]

our lands ?

again i am right about you bieng racist, one rule for white christian immigrants and one for asian muslim immigrants.......

When I said “our lands” I meant countries of Europe in general. UK is not the only place with high Muslim immigration. Greece where I live now also has a large Muslim immigration.

there you go again, i am british despite my brown colour, your not british but you seem to think you have more right to britain than i do just becos you are European
This is a complex issue. Europe is definitely going towards a complete unification and Serbia will become member of EU somewhere between 2012 and 2015. I already have a valid Shengen card, allowing me to take residency in the UK, if I so desire.

To get back on the subject, I think that you have every right to Britain as every white-skinned British. We are all equal before the law, that’s how it should be.

[morbius]

I think some people cannot help but think in a very racist way without realising. I assume since morbius is coming from Serbia where the society is not as multi-cultural as it is in the UK, his levels of racism are not as high as ours.
Serbia is actually pretty multicultural. We have a large Muslim population, a lot of Hungarians and more and more Chinese are immigrating.
But I don’t know how high level of racism in UK is, so I can not compare.

So to him, like many of the rightwing people in the UK, we will always remain 'they' who 'come to our country', even if we be 3rd generation, whereas a white European will always be 'one of us', even if he cannot speak English.
Fear of other races seems to be present in human genetics. Observations have shown that little children of all races show high levels of stress when they contact person of another race for the first time.

Don't you find that Europeans are usually the most racist people on earth? Or am I mistaken?
You should see Japanese.

[Abuz Zubair]

Serbia is actually pretty multicultural. We have a large Muslim population, a lot of Hungarians and more and more Chinese are immigrating.
But I don’t know how high level of racism in UK is, so I can not compare.

Depends how you define multi-culturalism. Serbian Muslims are white European Serbian Muslims... They even have much of the same culture and life style. Besides, knowing Serbia's economic state, it wouldn't match even a 10th of multi-culturalism in the UK, which I personally think is something amazing about the UK, something I would endeavour to preserve.

Have you ever lived in the UK?

Fear of other races seems to be present in human genetics. Observations have shown that little children of all races show high levels of stress when they contact person of another race for the first time. Is this one of those observations where black men are meant for hard labour and white men for all the office work?

Racism is not what people are born with. It is what they are taught. So you have no excuse.

You should see Japanese

they have a very strong sense of tradition... not sure about racism...

Most of the Muslims in the middle east have a very strong sense of nationalism, but racism is nearly non-existent...

[gag order]

serbian multiculturism?

is that before or after the ethnic cleansing?



I don’t particularly like seeing so many Asian Muslims in their traditional robes on the streets of European cities, but I tolerate them.
(morbius)

and theres more:

Great deal of UK Muslims are first or second generation residents, that’s why I usually say “immigrants”. I do feel that all “legal” Muslims who live there
he uses speech marks when referring to muslims who have indefinite leave to remain or are citizens implying that he despises muslim presence in the UK though he is not a citizen himself, he does not see our presence here as legitimate.

Hey, I dislike queers as much as the next guy, but you can’t take someone’s human rights away just because you dislike him.
he then says this about gays;
I personally am not against secular homosexual marriages, but such couples should not be allowed to adopt children.
well, gay rights groups will accuse you of denying them their human rights!

There are certainly many homos among Muslims, but they hide themselves fearing punishment.
how do you know there are 'many' if they are hiding?

Church used to kill queers in the middle ages. But church has no such authority any more.
spoken like a gay pride activist, perhaps you envy them but are afraid to come out of the closet? come on, spit it out as your boyfreind said last night!

You insist on UK Muslims being apart of the country and not only immigrants, but it is really not relevant to my course of arguing.
and your course of arguing is about gays?

if you have just joined us and are not familiar with morbius and want to know what this distraction from the topic is about, it all starts from thread no. 41.

[morbius]

Depends how you define multi-culturalism. Serbian Muslims are white European Serbian Muslims... They even have much of the same culture and life style. Besides, knowing Serbia's economic state, it wouldn't match even a 10th of multi-culturalism in the UK, which I personally think is something amazing about the UK, something I would endeavour to preserve.

I am not against multiculturalism and I think that ethnic and cultural variety is good for the countries and their population. However, there are many hidden dangers in this. I myself have witnessed how my multiethnic country fell to pieces in a bloody civil war and I wouldn’t like to see that happen again anywhere.

Have you ever lived in the UK?
No, but there is a good chance of something like that happening. I am not able to validate my diploma here in Greece and I am having problems getting a good job. So, it’s possible that I might move.

Is this one of those observations where black men are meant for hard labour and white men for all the office work?
Differences between different races go deeper than just skin color. For instance, most intelligent people on Earth are Ashkenazi Jews with average IQ almost twice higher then nation with lowest average IQ, which happen to be Aborigines of Australia. But those numbers are just averages, Aborigine can have a genius level intelligence, just as well as a Jew can be an idiot.
Generalizing things when it comes to race is a very bad thing, since it leads to discrimination.

Racism is not what people are born with. It is what they are taught. So you have no excuse.
We are born with instinctive fear of those who are different then us. That difference can be race, nation, religion, etc.
It took 50 years of careful education to create national and religious harmony in Bosnia and just a few short months to tear it all to shreds. Why? Because it’s intolerance, not tolerance that is in our nature. Intolerance is given, tolerance requires work.

[Abuz Zubair]

Ok... so you are 100% bona fide white nationalist...

Actually, if you try to reason why Suhaib Jost or Ibn Myatt, you may be able to relate and understand more, because they were once like you, or worse.

[Skillganon]

When the kaafir is making the statement "Muslim needs to integrate"
One should note the following point:
1. They are not directing the question to other religion as such.
2. They are not directing it to culture as such.
3. They are directing it to Muslim only.

So actually they are directing it to the Quran and the sunnah. They wan't you to abandon the sunnah and follow their way. i.e. become like them.

That reminds of the chapter....that goes something like, they will never be happy until you become like them?

[gag order]

did i hear morbius is coming to the UK?

you wont like it here, there are a lot of mosques and muslims in every locality up and down the country

[morbius]

Ok... so you are 100% bona fide white nationalist...

Actually, most white nationalist whould call me anti.
But they are right when they claim that differences between races exist.

[morbius]

did i hear morbius is coming to the UK?

you wont like it here, there are a lot of mosques and muslims in every locality up and down the country

My best friends in college were Muslims.
I have nothing against law-abiding Muslims, but you can't seem to understand that, or don't want to understand.

[gag order]

admittedly you have a problem with asians especially if they are muslims

[Umm]

Hey, I don’t have to like them to tolerate them. I don’t particularly like seeing so many Asian Muslims in their traditional robes on the streets of European cities, but I tolerate them.



So, maybe they are law-abiding citizens, but you don't really like seeing them. You claim that you are not racist, anti-Muslim, so what is your problem with them then?

[morbius]

So, maybe they are law-abiding citizens, but you don't really like seeing them. You claim that you are not racist, anti-Muslim, so what is your problem with them then?

I worry about potential problems that their presence might cause. Allowing too many Muslims to enter too quickly is a recipe for a disaster. Unfortunately, I saw how it works in my own country.

Number of Albanians in southern Serbian province of Kosovo grew from about 200 000 in 1950 to almost 2 000 000 in 1990 because of uncontrolled immigration and their high birth rate. That’s growth of 1000% in just 40 years! We all know what happened next.
Number of Turks in Sweden is growing at explosive rates, so is number of Muslim Africans in France, etc. There is no way that so many newcomers can be integrated so quickly. Governments of European countries are going for the short-turn benefits of such immigration, completely disregarding problems that it may cause in the long run.

When European settlers came to America, did they learn to live in peace with the local Indians, sharing the land with them? When Jews resettled the Palestine, did the find common language with the local Arabs? History teaches us that such things always lead to conflicts.

So, these matters must be handled delicately. I am not opposed to Asian Muslims living among us, but for everybody’s sake we simply must be careful with how many new ones should be allowed in.

[Umm]

That's a lame argument. Those Asian Muslims could well have been British born citizens etc. The fact is, you are racist, you are just ashamed of admitting it. At least, you are anti-Muslims, or perhaps just brown ones. That doesn't bother me, as a person is free to form their own opinions. I just prefer them to be honest about them. But in this P.C. world, people are too afraid of going against the grain and admitting they are anti anyone.

[gag order]

I am not opposed to Asian Muslims living among us,
your not british and you dont live in britain, so its irrelevant wether you like it or not.

but for everybody’s sake we simply must be careful with how many new ones should be allowed in.
again, your not british and you dont live in britian, and here you are pretending to represent the UK home office.<!-- / message -->

[Yasir]

Panorama: Britain's Growing Racial Divide - White Fright
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/6631541.stm

[Umm]

Funny thing is, you get many Hindus and Sikhs who keep Asian friends only, eat Asian food, listen to their Bhangra music, amongst the youth. Amongst the elders, how many Hindu and Sikhs "integrate"? Lots of them can't speak English, yet it is only an issue when Muslims are concerned. Diwali celebrations are not seen as a threat, nor are the number of Gurdwara (sikh temples) objected to.

And what about all of our "modern" Muslims who do have non-Muslim partners, drink, smoke and go clubbing? They aren't applauded for integrating, not if their name is Ms Khan or Mr Choudhury.


Jack Straw says "The risk is of separate communities, and of people breathing the same air but walking past each other"

The majority of the non-Muslim white British public can live on a street for 40 years and not know the firstnames of many of their neighbours, more than 10 doors away.

[Abuz Zubair]

well said...

[morbius]

Funny thing is, you get many Hindus and Sikhs who keep Asian friends only, eat Asian food, listen to their Bhangra music, amongst the youth. Amongst the elders, how many Hindu and Sikhs "integrate"? Lots of them can't speak English, yet it is only an issue when Muslims are concerned. Diwali celebrations are not seen as a threat, nor are the number of Gurdwara (sikh temples) objected to.

OK, but when was the last time you heard of Hindu or Sikh plant bomb somewhere in Britain?

The reason why people are more distrusting to Muslims than to Sikhs or Hindus lies in aggresiveness and intolerance of Islam.

[Umm]

Morbius, it was the British who created the problem of Kashmir. The Hindus might not be bombing the UK, because their terrorism is, at the very least, ignored by the UK. So yes, it isn't British women gang raped and having their stomachs slit open, and their unborn children killed. But it is still wrong. The only difference is, the Muslims are the victims, so the International Community doesn't care.

Muslims who carry out desperate acts, do so because of British foreign policy (Iraq, Afghanistan etc). India doesn't have British troops killing her civilians . So why would Hindus and Sikhs bomb the UK?

[abu_ibrahim]

I am not opposed to Asian Muslims living among us

Thats funny dude. If I remember correctly, you are a Serb. I didn't know "Asian Muslims" were running to your country. Its more like Eastern Europeans are flooding Western Europe, who are 80% low skilled (Earn less then £6.50).

[gag order]

OK, but when was the last time you heard of Hindu or Sikh plant bomb somewhere in Britain?

calls for intergration, lopsided critcism, and media demonisation of british muslims existed long before the terror attacks.

[gag order]

Jack Straw says "The risk is of separate communities, and of people breathing the same air but walking past each other"

the local council housing policy creates ethnic enclaves of asians and wites and blacks concentrating them in certain areas yet the muslims are blamed for not 'intergrating' and living in ghettos.

[morbius]

Morbius, it was the British who created the problem of Kashmir. The Hindus might not be bombing the UK, because their terrorism is, at the very least, ignored by the UK. So yes, it isn't British women gang raped and having their stomachs slit open, and their unborn children killed. But it is still wrong. The only difference is, the Muslims are the victims, so the International Community doesn't care.
Indian government seems to be sending rather peaceful messages to Muslims in Kashmir and Pakistan, calling them to cooperation instead of trying to threat them. A lot of bad things went on in the past, but I very much doubt that situation is so bad today.

Muslims who carry out desperate acts, do so because of British foreign policy (Iraq, Afghanistan etc). India doesn't have British troops killing her civilians . So why would Hindus and Sikhs bomb the UK?
Well, we Serbs had been bombed by NATO, but have we commited a single act of terrorism in America or western Europe, or even Muslim countries as a response? Nope.

Let's face it, Islam is (in general) aggressive. Other major world religions are not (again, in general).

[morbius]

Thats funny dude. If I remember correctly, you are a Serb. I didn't know "Asian Muslims" were running to your country. Its more like Eastern Europeans are flooding Western Europe, who are 80% low skilled (Earn less then £6.50).

In Serbia we do don't have flooding of Asian Muslims, but we do have a flood of Asians (Chinese). I see no reason not to allow this to continue, as long as their number does not grow too rapidly.
Chinese are nice people. They are polite and cook good food. And best of all, they don't bomb our buildings or trains.

[morbius]

OK, last night was a good example of what I am talking about on this forum.

On a Eurosong contest Turkey got maximum 12 points from Germany, Sweden, Switzerland, France and UK. It is practically standard that Turkey get 12 from these countries ever since SMS voting is used in a contest, naturally because of huge number of Turkish immigrants in these countries. The way things are going in a few years we won't even have to organize a contest, we can just declare Turkey the winner.

I've got nothing against Turks, don't get me wrong. But I am saying that we should become one big united Europe with individual cultures preserved, not one big Turkey. There should always be a place for Muslims to live among us, but there should be limit to their numbers which are right now growing at exploding rates due to high immigration and birth rate.
Turks tried to conquer Europe by sword many centuries ago and actually came very close. Should we let them conquer Europe by **edited** today?

[Abu_Abdillah2000]

Turks tried to conquer Europe by sword many centuries ago and actually came very close. Should we let them conquer Europe by penis today?

Why don't you people get to work then and increase your own birthrate, if you're so worried about it?

Morbius, you have some pretty pathetic posts on this forum, but that one must be one of the worst.

[Umm]

Indian government seems to be sending rather peaceful messages to Muslims in Kashmir and Pakistan, calling them to cooperation instead of trying to threat them. A lot of bad things went on in the past, but I very much doubt that situation is so bad today.


That just shows how ignorant you are of the situation.

Watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_Bkqwzl_Yg) and this and then tell us about the peace-loving Indian army

Well, we Serbs had been bombed by NATO, but have we commited a single act of terrorism in America or western Europe, or even Muslim countries as a response? Nope.

Who cares if you didn't commit crimes abroad? Was the genocide in Bosnia a lesser crime, because it was done on your own soil? Or because you agreed with it?

Let's face it, Islam is (in general) aggressive. Other major world religions are not (again, in general).

Islam doesn't advocate always turning the other cheek, but then, I can't imagine many Christians doing so, if they were slapped.

[morbius]

Why don't you people get to work then and increase your own birthrate, if you're so worried about it?


Making babies is really quite enjoyable, I could be making babies all day long. :)
But there is more than just making them, you also must consider providing for them, not just bring them into this world and letting them tend to themselves. Most people here chose to have just one or two children so they could afford to give them benefits of good education and provide them with many things in order to make their lives more comfortable.

Many immigrant Muslims in Europe make many children which they can not provide with a good education and which have to start working early, which in turn means a future life of poverty for many of them.

[morbius]

That just shows how ignorant you are of the situation.

Watch this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_Bkqwzl_Yg) and this and then tell us about the peace-loving Indian army


Yes, I know there is still a lot of violence in Kashmir, but a situation should be better than it was in the past. I can't tell anything for shore, I was never there.

I wish I can say that I don't know how these things work, but sadly I do. Violence on one side creates violence on the other side. Those things go on forever if there is no true will to end the conflict on both sides.

Who cares if you didn't commit crimes abroad? Was the genocide in Bosnia a lesser crime, because it was done on your own soil? Or because you agreed with it?
Do not think for one second that general Serbian population knew anything about massacres in Bosnia or that they would condone them if they knew.
And don't think that those massacres were committed by the regular Serbian troops. They were executed by units made mostly of criminals and fanatics, just like Muslim crimes in Bosnia were.

Islam doesn't advocate always turning the other cheek, but then, I can't imagine many Christians doing so, if they were slapped.
True, true. I first wouldn't allow someone to slap me around.
However, it remains an ideal for us to restrain from violence. Jesus told us not to fight, quote the opposite from Muhammad's words.

[gag order]

I've got nothing against Turks, don't get me wrong.

is that why you keep peeving about how they ruled you for 500 years?

But I am saying that we should become one big united Europe with individual cultures preserved, not one big Turkey. There should always be a place for Muslims to live among us,

turkey is a european nation so its irrelevant wether you allow them to live amongst you or not!

[Umm]

But there is more than just making them, you also must consider providing for them, not just bring them into this world and letting them tend to themselves.

"Anybody can make a baby, but anybody can't take care of them. Anyone can
go and get a woman but anybody can't take care of a woman." - Malcolm X.

[morbius]

is that why you keep peeving about how they ruled you for 500 years?


I have nothing against Turks today.
All our disagreements were settled with the battle of Kumanovo in 1912. Since we have no beef with them today, there is no reason why we can't be friends. Let past stay in the past.

[morbius]

"Anybody can make a baby, but anybody can't take care of them. Anyone can
go and get a woman but anybody can't take care of a woman." - Malcolm X.

He was a very smart man with a vision.
Certanly didn't deserve to be killed by his own.