Christian or Shia

[Hajjaj]

Lets play a game try to guess which one is the Christian and which is the Shia;
A
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2007/2204752690_6595f6e0c3_o.jpg
B
http://my_sarisari_store.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/05/23/dsc_5996ccc.jpg
C
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2098/2204751590_629c11a38d_o.jpg
D
http://my_sarisari_store.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/05/23/dsc_6204ccc.jpg

[Hajjaj]

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/image/christian_shias.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2068/2204752354_83a9a8180d_o.jpg

http://my_sarisari_store.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/gasan_flagellant_14.jpg

http://my_sarisari_store.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/05/23/dsc_6569ccc.jpg

[leo]

The ist one seem to be followers of Ibn Saba and remaining appear to be their cousins in christianity :D

But where is their holy animal in bridal dress in second picture. How can they injure their bodies in isolation :D

[leo]

ahmedjbn must be able to recognise correctly. Please help us as we don't have any experience :D

[ahmedjbh]

there are all wrong, these type of actions are wrong.

[morbius]

there are all wrong, these type of actions are wrong.

True, but it's hard not to be amazed at this amount of will power.

[leo]

True, but it's hard not to be amazed at this amount of will power.

Only during mourning sessions, but they don't take time in running away from the battlefield. We know about their history :D

[Saifur Rahman Al Afghani]

The first guy did it in his pants! LOL :D

[Shaolinmaster]

there are all wrong, these type of actions are wrong.

Oh really??

It seems as usual the Shi'a layman has been fooled and contradicted once again by the very priesthood he holds so dear!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sCokZB0eWM

[Shaolinmaster]

It didnt come out right, here's the direct link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sCokZB0eWM

[ibn Kamal]

there are all wrong, these type of actions are wrong.
How can you deny the ultimate proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxT7KNWY4FE
Salawaaaaaaaat

[ahmedjbh]

The only shias that do this are uneducated extremists, inshallah Allah will guide them.

You will never see an educated shia , or a scholar doing such things.

[Hamza]

How can you deny the ultimate proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxT7KNWY4FE
Salawaaaaaaaat

LOL thats funny

:D

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

The only shias that do this are uneducated extremists, inshallah Allah will guide them.

You will never see an educated shia , or a scholar doing such things.

the "uneducated extremists" are, as alluded to in the video above, mere parrots.

so how do you explain Shi'ite authorities promoting it, as displayed here:

http://www.shirazi.org.uk/tatbir%20fatawa.htm
http://www.shirazi.org.uk/ashura.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sCokZB0eWM

are these religious authorities also "uneducated extremists"?

here's a quote from Shirazi's website (http://www.shirazi.org.uk/ashura.htm) which contradicts your statement:


Question: violence / innovation?

I had a fellow brother at the Mosque mention one of the teachings of Imam Shirazi. The teaching in question deals with Ashura and the beating of swords and chains. This brother mentioned that Imam Shirazi says that it is allowed to use swords and chains and the drawing of blood, while someone else has said it is not allowed. Please enlighten me on Imam Shirazi's teachings regarding this. I personally do not agree with violence in Ashura. I dare to say that I could not imagine Imam Hussain (AS) would even want us to hurt ourselves. In fact I would think he died to keep real Islam alive and keep us from going the deviant path of innovators.

Answer

Any action of a Muslim may fall in one of the following categories:
Haram (not allowed)
Makruh (detestable/undesirable but not Haram)
Halal (Allowed)
Mustahab (desirable but not Waajib)
Waajib (Obligatory)
As with the issue of hitting the head with swords (Tatbir in Arabic or Qamah-Zani in Farsi) Imam Shirazi is not exceptional in any way to permit, and encourage, this action in Ashura. In fact ALL high-ranking ‘ULAMA and AYATOLLAHS not only have allowed this, and continue to do so, but for the entire history of the Shi'a over the past fourteen centuries, they have always encouraged this, declaring Tatbir or Qamah-Zani as very Mustahab indeed.
And it should be pointed out that if one suffers hardship in the cause of commemorating Imam Hussain (AS), then so be it! Imam Hussain (AS) is a special case. He went out of his way to save Islam, and offered all he had in this cause, not only worldly possessions, but his Ahl-ul-Bayt and sons . . . from Ali al-Akbar to his toddler sons . . . and not only that but his womenfolk (wives, sisters, daughters, nieces) were left at the mercy of the most ruthless people on earth to be taken prisoners. Whatever we do is not sufficient for what Imam Hussain (AS) did.
Needless to say the first person to perform ‘Tatbir' was Hazrat Zaynab al-Kubra (AS), the sister of Imam Hussain (AS). The family and supporters of Imam Hussain (AS) were and being paraded as prisoners in Kufa, and the people of Kufa booing the prisoners, when they started parading the head of Imam Hussain (AS) on long spears, along with other heads, to show her anguish Hazrat Zaynab (AS) hit her forehead against the supporting rod of the cabin she was traveling in. She therefore set the first precedence of Tatbir for Imam Hussain (AS).
So in short, Tatbir has always been recommended as Mustahab by the overwhelming consensus of the ‘ULAMA and there has rarely been any, if at all, high-ranking ‘Aalim ever to have declared otherwise.
As for Iran<st1:country-region w:st="on"></st1:country-region>, significant number of devotees, just as in many other countries, have always performed Tatbir for many years (or rather centuries), and in recent years despite its prohibition being enforced by the authorities, people continued to perform this duty. In the last couple of years even the authorities there have started to turn a blind eye to such programs given the insistence and eagerness of the people to perform Qamah-Zani.
Was-Salaam

[ahmedjbh]

This is the opinion of Imam Khamenei(HA):


Question: What is the view on beating the drum and cymbal, blowing the trumpet, and lashing oneself with chains with blades during the processions for the commemoration of the martyrdom of Imam Ḥusayn (a.s.)?
Answer: If the use of such chains leads, in the eye of the public, to defaming our school of thought or inflicting a noticeable harmful effect on the body, it is not permissible. There is no harm in using the drum, cymbal, and trumpet in the traditional way.


As for my own opinion regarding this issue, I consider such acts and practices as forbidden. This stems from the well-established fact that hurting oneself is forbidden as far as the Islamic Shari`ah is concerned unless there is a necessity for that. Thereupon, it is forbidden to strike heads with swords, or backs with chains, or even to harshly strike one’s cheeks that may hurt him even slightly. This can be deducted from the aforementioned texts that prove that harming one’s self is forbidden.

(Sayyed Fadhlallah)

[leo]

This is the opinion of Imam Khamenei(HA):

Answer: There is no harm in using the drum, cymbal, and trumpet in the traditional way.


Were these used at karbala? if not then what is the relevance of these equipment with the tragedy of karbala?

And why do shia injure only for the sake of Hussain (RA)? I believe there were other martyrs also, but shia don't remember them during their mourning processions, especially walking with those horses. Whats the reason? Why shia don't injure themselves for the sake of other shuhada of karbala?

[Hajjaj]

Were these used at karbala? if not then what is the relevance of these equipment with the tragedy of karbala?

And why do shia injure only for the sake of Hussain (RA)? I believe there were other martyrs also, but shia don't remember them during their mourning processions, especially walking with those horses. Whats the reason? Why shia don't injure themselves for the sake of other shuhada of karbala?

Guilt they lured him(RA) there then abandoned him(RA) then participated in his killing.

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

This is the opinion of Imam Khamenei(HA):


Question: What is the view on beating the drum and cymbal, blowing the trumpet, and lashing oneself with chains with blades during the processions for the commemoration of the martyrdom of Imam Ḥusayn (a.s.)?
Answer: If the use of such chains leads, in the eye of the public, to defaming our school of thought or inflicting a noticeable harmful effect on the body, it is not permissible. There is no harm in using the drum, cymbal, and trumpet in the traditional way.


As for my own opinion regarding this issue, I consider such acts and practices as forbidden. This stems from the well-established fact that hurting oneself is forbidden as far as the Islamic Shari`ah is concerned unless there is a necessity for that. Thereupon, it is forbidden to strike heads with swords, or backs with chains, or even to harshly strike one’s cheeks that may hurt him even slightly. This can be deducted from the aforementioned texts that prove that harming one’s self is forbidden.

(Sayyed Fadhlallah)

i think many people here can see that your response is an utter red herring

you said:

The only shias that do this are uneducated extremists, inshallah Allah will guide them.

You will never see an educated shia , or a scholar doing such things.i replied:


the "uneducated extremists" are, as alluded to in the video above, mere parrots.

so how do you explain Shi'ite authorities promoting it, as displayed here:

http://www.shirazi.org.uk/tatbir%20fatawa.htm
http://www.shirazi.org.uk/ashura.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sCokZB0eWM

are these religious authorities also "uneducated extremists"?

here's a quote from Shirazi's website (http://www.shirazi.org.uk/ashura.htm) which contradicts your statement:
you avoided answering the question posed about the many scholars that encourage it, and located two opinions of opposite skew, although it has very little to do with the bold declaration you made.

as for the second quote... directly preceding it Fadlallah says:


There is another view adopted by many scholars. They maintain that man is not prohibited to harm himself if such harm would not lead him to a bad state of health or to death.

In light of this view, scholars see that hitting the head with a sword and striking the cheeks in mourning are not forbidden acts in themselves. Rather, they are forbidden because man is forbidden to do anything that may lead to his ruin.

Scholars who legalize harming oneself in principle hold some restrictions. They see that the issue in question is prohibited in certain cases if it leads to something prohibited in the second place.

The above view is also maintained by the late major Shiite scholar Sheikh As-Sayed Abul-Qasim Al-Khaw`ie.
was the omission genuine or because it wasn't convenient to reveal?

in any case, it looks like you're labelling a large list (most, in fact) of "Ayotallahs" who encourage it as "uneducated extremists." don't get me wrong, i agree with you completely - but statements like "You will never see an educated shia , or a scholar doing such things", which attempt to distance the Shi'ite priesthood from the very acts they incite, are patently erroneous. be wary that misleading apologetics like these damage your credibility when you present yourself as a spokesperson for Shi'ism on these forums.

in fact, as Shirazi says, "Tatbir has always been recommended as Mustahab by the overwhelming consensus of the ‘ULAMA and there has rarely been any, if at all, high-ranking ‘Aalim ever to have declared otherwise." so it's not suprising if there's a few opposing opinions here or there, it seems clear where the majority view of Shi'ite scholarship lies. that is the context in which your initial declaration has been assessed.

[leo]

Exactly brother Hajjaj. I was asking from our shia friend amhedjbn to explain the philosphy behind bloody matam sessions. If at all they have to indulge in such kufria acts, its their own choice, but then this kufr must be divided equally amongst all the martyrs of karbala. The names of martyrs, shia particularly don't recall during mourning processions and mourning speeches:-

Hazrat Usman Bin Ali.

Hazrat Abu Baker Bin Ali.

Hazrat Abu Baker Bin Hasan Bin Ali.

Hazrat Umer Bin Qarza
Ansari.


See how much hatred they have got against caliphs (RA). I just wanted to highlight this aspect.

[ahmedjbh]

Were these used at karbala? if not then what is the relevance of these equipment with the tragedy of karbala?

And why do shia injure only for the sake of Hussain (RA)? I believe there were other martyrs also, but shia don't remember them during their mourning processions, especially walking with those horses. Whats the reason? Why shia don't injure themselves for the sake of other shuhada of karbala?

You have ignored my previous post, check it and it will answer your question.

[ahmedjbh]

Guilt they lured him(RA) there then abandoned him(RA) then participated in his killing.

yes everything is the shias fault, but the sunnis, where were they?

[ahmedjbh]

i think many people here can see that your response is an utter red herring

you said:

i replied:

you avoided answering the question posed about the many scholars that encourage it, and located two opinions of opposite skew, although it has very little to do with the bold declaration you made.

as for the second quote... directly preceding it Fadlallah says:

was the omission genuine or because it wasn't convenient to reveal?

in any case, it looks like you're labelling a large list (most, in fact) of "Ayotallahs" who encourage it as "uneducated extremists." don't get me wrong, i agree with you completely - but statements like "You will never see an educated shia , or a scholar doing such things", which attempt to distance the Shi'ite priesthood from the very acts they incite, are patently erroneous. be wary that misleading apologetics like these damage your credibility when you present yourself as a spokesperson for Shi'ism on these forums.

in fact, as Shirazi says, "Tatbir has always been recommended as Mustahab by the overwhelming consensus of the ‘ULAMA and there has rarely been any, if at all, high-ranking ‘Aalim ever to have declared otherwise." so it's not suprising if there's a few opposing opinions here or there, it seems clear where the majority view of Shi'ite scholarship lies. that is the context in which your initial declaration has been assessed.


Hes simply incorrect, it has never been recommended, and is still not. That is the view of over 90% of shias, as they follow Sestani, Khamenei and Fadlullah, who all hold the opinion that it is not recommended.

You can continue to fool yourself and beleive otherwise, its your choice.

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

Hes simply incorrect, it has never been recommended, and is still not. That is the view of over 90% of shias, as they follow Sestani, Khamenei and Fadlullah, who all hold the opinion that it is not recommended.

You can continue to fool yourself and beleive otherwise, its your choice.

perhaps you can explain a bit more clearly why we should believe you over Shirazi (a Grand Ayatollah - who clearly has more knowledge of Shi'ism than you) or Fadlallah who both say that many scholars have encouraged it. or perhaps you have a credible answer to this: http://www.shirazi.org.uk/tatbir%20fatawa.htm

are the many Ayatollahs listed who encourage it "uneducated extremists"?

[ahmedjbh]

I am getting bored of repeating myself, so please read what im saying, this is the last time im going to repeat this.

Over 90% of shias follow one of the following scholars , Sestani, Khamenei, Fadlullah. All of whom discourage such activities.

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

I am getting bored of repeating myself, so please read what im saying, this is the last time im going to repeat this.

Over 90% of shias follow one of the following scholars , Sestani, Khamenei, Fadlullah. All of whom discourage such activities.


that is an unfounded and unverified claim.

you expect me to accept that assertion (or complete absurdities like "You will never see an educated shia , or a scholar doing such things."), yet you provide absolutely no reason why i should reject Shirazi's assertion, or even Fadlallah's, that many eminent Shi'ite scholars encourage it. it's your word vs. a Grand Ayatollah's word - at least try providing some evidence for your claim like Mr. Shirazi did.

you have a habit of avoiding uncomfortable questions, ahmed. for the third time, please answer whether these many Grand Ayatollahs from the past and present who encourage it are "uneducated extremists"?

edit: yet again it seems you are ignorant of the facts (or are deliberately misinforming), as Shirazi quotes Sistani on the very page i linked to, who says:


Question:
What is the ruling regarding the lashing with chains, chest beating, and walking on fire on the occasion of mourning the martyrdom of Imam Hussain peace be upon him?

Answer:
If (these are) not associated with extreme harm or loss of limb, there is no objection.

Question:
What is the ruling regarding wearing black, and chest beating when commemorating the martyrdom of Imam Hussain peace be upon him, as well as other infallible Imams peace be upon them?
Answer:
This is permissible, and in fact this is regarded as one of the best means of seeking nearness to Allah, since it is upholding and honouring the Sha’a’er of Allah Almighty. [This is a reference to the Qur’anic Ayah 22:32. – translator.]

[ahmedjbh]

As for your source, the official website for Shirazi is here

http://www.makaremshirazi.org/

I am not familiar with your one. I am sending him a question about the issue and I will post the reply here.

Lets go through the mains shia scholars opinions so that we can see whats going on, im sure its going to be pointless, as I will probably get the same question, "but on this wahabi site it said shias must hit themselves !!111oneonetwo"


aytollah alodhma mohsen al-hakim:

إن هذه الممارسات ( التطبير) ليست فقط مجرد ممارسات... هي ليست من الدين وليست من الأمور المستحبة بل هذه الممارسات أيضا مضرة بالمسلمين وفي فهم الإسلام الأصيل وفي فهم أهل البيت عليهم السلام ولم أرى أي من العلماء عندما راجعت النصوص والفتاوى يقول بان هذا العمل مستحب يمكن إن تقترب به إلى الله سبحانه وتعالى ان قضية التطبير هي غصة في حلقومنا



ayatollah al-khoei:

لم يرد نص بشرعيته فلا طريق إلى الحكم باستحباب


ayatollah mohammed baqir sadr:

ان ما تراه من ضرب الأجسام وإسالة الدماء هو من فعل عوام الناس وجهالهم ولا يفعل ذلك أي واحد من العلماء بل هم دائبون على منعه وتحريمه


aayatollah mohsen al-ameen said

كما ان ما يفعله جملة من الناس من جرح أنفسهم بالسيوف أو اللطم المؤدي إلى إيذاء البدن إنما هو من تسويلات الشيطان وتزيينه سوء الأعم


Question : My brother wants to do Qama on 20 Safar, he is following Ayatullah Sistani. Based on the misuse of Qama today, insincerity of many people, diseases spreading around, and political views can I stop him from doing Qama?

Answer by Board of Istifa, Office of Grand Ayatollah Sistani: The main objective of mourning and lamentation during 'Ashura', is to respect the signs and symbols of religion and remember the suffering of Imam Hussain as.gif, his companions, and his uprising to defend Islam and prevent the destruction of the religion by Bani Umayyad dynasty. These rites must be done in such a way that in addition to serving that purpose, it draws the attention of others to these lofty goals. Also its ritual aspect should be preserved. So those actions which are not understandable for the enemies of Islam and non-Shia Muslims and causes misunderstanding and contempt for the religion must be avoided.


Question : I want to know the status of beating our backs with knives (ZANJEER) on the day of Ashura? What is it status in our Fiqh?

Answer by Board of Istifa, Office of Grand Ayatollah Sistani: The philosophy of mourning during 'Ashura', is to respect the symbols of religion and remember the suffering of Imam Hussain as.gif, his companions, and his uprising to defend Islam and prevent the destruction of the religion by Bani Umayyad dynasty. These rites must be done in such a way that in addition to serving that purpose, it draws the attention of others to these lofty goals. So those actions which are not understandable and causes misunderstanding and contempt for the religion must be avoided.


Ayatollah ul-Uzma Khamenei has prohibed Zanjeer & Qama Zani according to his order in July 1994 Authenticity of this news can be confirmed from office of Ayatollah ul-Uzma Khamenei

GRAND AYATOLLAH SAYED ALI KHAMENEI(HA)
Q1449: In commemorating the martyrdom of Imam Husayn (a.s.) on the tenth of Muharram, some people hit themselves with a machete, or walk bare-footed on fire. Such actions defame Shi'ism and put it in a bad light, if not undermine it. They cause bodily and spiritual harms on these doing it as well. What is your opinion in this matter?

A: Any practice that causes bodily harm, or leads to defaming the faith, is Haram. Accordingly, the believers have to steer clear of it. There is no doubt that many of these practices besmirch the image of Ahlul Bayt's (a.s.) School of Thought which is the worst damage and loss.

Q1450: Is hitting oneself with swords Halal if it is done in secret? Or is your fatwa in this regard universal?

A: In addition to the fact that it is not held in the common view as manifestations of mourning and grief and it has no precedent at the lifetime of the Imams (a.s.) and even after that and we have not received any tradition quoted from the Infallibles (a.s.) about any support for this act, be it privately or publicly, this practice would, at the present time, give others a bad image of our school of thought. Therefore, there is no way that it can be considered permissible.

source www.leader.ir



Ayatullah Lankarani:

Subject: Answer[#838505]
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:17:01 -0800

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent the Merciful



Salamun alaikum

We have repeatedly replied to this question and said that mourning ceremonies should be held in such manner that it should not give the enemies of Islam an excuse in their hands to misuse it. At present, if blood matam is carried out, it will be either misunderstood or misused. Therefore, the best way to hold lamentation ceremonies is to mention the virtues and significance of the Imam, hold majalis and beat our chests and recite appropriate poems to mourn the event. Moreover, the causes and goals of the revolution of Imam Husain (a.s.) should not be neglected in these Majalis. But to wound oneself with a sword or a knife or a blade which has no rational basis and justification for the enemies of Islam will play a negative role; therefore, it is necessary for the Shiites believing in Imam Hussein to avoid it. Moreover, the use of cutting tools for lamentation is not considered a customary means/method for mourning.



May Allah Grant you success.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=CrfPxjTSoVY

[zaid_ibn_ali]

As for your source, the official website for Shirazi is here

http://www.makaremshirazi.org/

I am not familiar with your one. I am sending him a question about the issue and I will post the reply here.

Lets go through the mains shia scholars opinions so that we can see whats going on, im sure its going to be pointless, as I will probably get the same question, "but on this wahabi site it said shias must hit themselves !!111oneonetwo"


aytollah alodhma mohsen al-hakim:

إن هذه الممارسات ( التطبير) ليست فقط مجرد ممارسات... هي ليست من الدين وليست من الأمور المستحبة بل هذه الممارسات أيضا مضرة بالمسلمين وفي فهم الإسلام الأصيل وفي فهم أهل البيت عليهم السلام ولم أرى أي من العلماء عندما راجعت النصوص والفتاوى يقول بان هذا العمل مستحب يمكن إن تقترب به إلى الله سبحانه وتعالى ان قضية التطبير هي غصة في حلقومنا



ayatollah al-khoei:

لم يرد نص بشرعيته فلا طريق إلى الحكم باستحباب


ayatollah mohammed baqir sadr:

ان ما تراه من ضرب الأجسام وإسالة الدماء هو من فعل عوام الناس وجهالهم ولا يفعل ذلك أي واحد من العلماء بل هم دائبون على منعه وتحريمه


aayatollah mohsen al-ameen said

كما ان ما يفعله جملة من الناس من جرح أنفسهم بالسيوف أو اللطم المؤدي إلى إيذاء البدن إنما هو من تسويلات الشيطان وتزيينه سوء الأعم


Question : My brother wants to do Qama on 20 Safar, he is following Ayatullah Sistani. Based on the misuse of Qama today, insincerity of many people, diseases spreading around, and political views can I stop him from doing Qama?

Answer by Board of Istifa, Office of Grand Ayatollah Sistani: The main objective of mourning and lamentation during 'Ashura', is to respect the signs and symbols of religion and remember the suffering of Imam Hussain as.gif, his companions, and his uprising to defend Islam and prevent the destruction of the religion by Bani Umayyad dynasty. These rites must be done in such a way that in addition to serving that purpose, it draws the attention of others to these lofty goals. Also its ritual aspect should be preserved. So those actions which are not understandable for the enemies of Islam and non-Shia Muslims and causes misunderstanding and contempt for the religion must be avoided.


Question : I want to know the status of beating our backs with knives (ZANJEER) on the day of Ashura? What is it status in our Fiqh?

Answer by Board of Istifa, Office of Grand Ayatollah Sistani: The philosophy of mourning during 'Ashura', is to respect the symbols of religion and remember the suffering of Imam Hussain as.gif, his companions, and his uprising to defend Islam and prevent the destruction of the religion by Bani Umayyad dynasty. These rites must be done in such a way that in addition to serving that purpose, it draws the attention of others to these lofty goals. So those actions which are not understandable and causes misunderstanding and contempt for the religion must be avoided.


Ayatollah ul-Uzma Khamenei has prohibed Zanjeer & Qama Zani according to his order in July 1994 Authenticity of this news can be confirmed from office of Ayatollah ul-Uzma Khamenei

GRAND AYATOLLAH SAYED ALI KHAMENEI(HA)
Q1449: In commemorating the martyrdom of Imam Husayn (a.s.) on the tenth of Muharram, some people hit themselves with a machete, or walk bare-footed on fire. Such actions defame Shi'ism and put it in a bad light, if not undermine it. They cause bodily and spiritual harms on these doing it as well. What is your opinion in this matter?

A: Any practice that causes bodily harm, or leads to defaming the faith, is Haram. Accordingly, the believers have to steer clear of it. There is no doubt that many of these practices besmirch the image of Ahlul Bayt's (a.s.) School of Thought which is the worst damage and loss.

Q1450: Is hitting oneself with swords Halal if it is done in secret? Or is your fatwa in this regard universal?

A: In addition to the fact that it is not held in the common view as manifestations of mourning and grief and it has no precedent at the lifetime of the Imams (a.s.) and even after that and we have not received any tradition quoted from the Infallibles (a.s.) about any support for this act, be it privately or publicly, this practice would, at the present time, give others a bad image of our school of thought. Therefore, there is no way that it can be considered permissible.

source www.leader.ir



Ayatullah Lankarani:

Subject: Answer[#838505]
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2004 06:17:01 -0800

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent the Merciful



Salamun alaikum

We have repeatedly replied to this question and said that mourning ceremonies should be held in such manner that it should not give the enemies of Islam an excuse in their hands to misuse it. At present, if blood matam is carried out, it will be either misunderstood or misused. Therefore, the best way to hold lamentation ceremonies is to mention the virtues and significance of the Imam, hold majalis and beat our chests and recite appropriate poems to mourn the event. Moreover, the causes and goals of the revolution of Imam Husain (a.s.) should not be neglected in these Majalis. But to wound oneself with a sword or a knife or a blade which has no rational basis and justification for the enemies of Islam will play a negative role; therefore, it is necessary for the Shiites believing in Imam Hussein to avoid it. Moreover, the use of cutting tools for lamentation is not considered a customary means/method for mourning.



May Allah Grant you success.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=CrfPxjTSoVY

LOL. Look at these supposed fatwas. Only the one from Khamenei is clear in stating that it is prohibited. None of the others state that it is haraam, rather they say that us sunni's ('non-shia muslims') and non-muslims do not understand it, so its best not to do it!!!

This my brothers and sisters is taqiyya in action no doubt. The shia 'ayatollah's' are saying lets not do this because they (non-shia) wont understand it, and it will give a negative view of shi'ism, not because it is wrong (remember only khameini said its haraam), but because it would be not be suitable. So we get taqiyya i.e. lets not manifest certain of our beliefs & actions whilst in the midst of sunnis and non muslims.

Thanks for posting them 'fatwas' ahmedjbh!

[ahmedjbh]

no problem.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

do you admit that those 'fatwas' display the tactic of taqiyya in action?

[leo]

Only the one from Khamenei is clear in stating that it is prohibited.


Khomeini remained committed in veterinary matters, relating to animal prtection, their treatment and actions to be administered in case any shia enters into mutah contract with animals :D

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

As for your source, the official website for Shirazi is here

http://www.makaremshirazi.org/

I am not familiar with your one. I am sending him a question about the issue and I will post the reply here.


do you understand that Nasir Makarem Shirazi (http://www.makaremshirazi.org/english/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=3) and Muhammad Mehdi al-Husseini Shirazi (http://www.shirazi.org.uk/imamshirazi.htm ) are not the same person

Lets go through the mains shia scholars opinions so that we can see whats going on, im sure its going to be pointless, as I will probably get the same question, "but on this wahabi site it said shias must hit themselves !!111oneonetwo"
a juvenile response. shirazi.org.uk is the official website of "Grand Ayatollah Muhammad ibn Mehdi al-Husseini al-Shirazi". do you think it's a "wahabi" website?

i don't see why you are providing select opinions (who incidentally prohibit it on the pretext of concealing their true practices as they won't go down well. taqiyyah anyone?) - when i have already linked you to an Ayatollah's website which lists a large number who promote it - including al-Kho'i, Sistani, and the others listed here: http://www.shirazi.org.uk/tatbir%20fatawa.htm.

more importantly, you don't seem to be understanding what i have written. i am talking about the many many "ayatollah udhmas", who are in the majority, that do legitimise and encourage it, Sistani included - and how it specifically relates to your comment about "uneducated extremists" - and whether or not you are willing to confirm that the majority of ayatollahs are just that.

ahmed, why do you have such difficulty addressing the question i posed? you start to look highly disingenuous when you repeatedly ignore the specific question raised. i will ask again, for the fourth time (and in bold, so you don't miss it): please answer whether these many Grand Ayatollahs from the past and present who encourage it are "uneducated extremists"?

[Abu Nusaybah]

Bismillah.

shirazi.org.uk is the official website of "Grand Ayatollah Muhammad ibn Mehdi al-Husseini al-Shirazi". do you think it's a "wahabi" website?
LOL!!! :D