Imamate in light of Quran

[zaid_ibn_ali]

There so many, many sunni vs shia threads. Many secondary issues, so much trivial talk. How about we discuss the FUNDEMENTALS. Neither accepts eachother's version of sunnah/hadith, history, etc.

One thing we can agree on is Quran, unless you wanna say that it been tampered with?

Imamate would be a good topic. Surely this is the most important and fundemental issue underlying sunni/shia differences.

So ahmed, please prove your shia belief from Quran and Sunnah.

This thread has been made, as to keep it clear to this discussion, and keep all other topics aside in relation to sunni/shia schisms.

You believe in Shia Imamate, why? Proof from the Holy Quran?

[Magoo]

this is the thing, their concept of 12 imams is not specifically mentioned anywhere in the quran, it is still the core of there belief

i have asked many shia to prove the 12 imam concept from quran but i have never seen it happen

ahmed, can you prove it?

[zaid_ibn_ali]

oops I meant from Quran, not Quran and Sunnah. Wont let me edit. Maybe a mod can:)

[Sawtul Islam]

I am a former Shia and when I was a Shia the response that I got from most Shias including their scholars was "It is in the Qur'an but only the Imams can understand all the Qur'an".

Of course this nonsense is just a cover up for their belief that the Qur'an has changed which they dont reveal to the masses as they fear many Shias may leave the sect once they realise that Shiism is not based on any actual source except the opinions of their so called "Ayatollahs".

[zaid_ibn_ali]

I wonder if any shia or anyone with a shia slant will participate in this thread. Someone once said to me "mention the Quran, bring it to them, and watch them run like mice". Lets see eh...

[leo]

Lets see the arguements from our friend ahmedjbn.

[ahmedjbh]

I will explain the shia doctrine of Imamate, however I would like you to explain the sunni doctrine of caliphate, its role and how it is selected.

I would also like to point out the question itself is flawed, as nobody claims to be "quranist", mainly concepts are detailed in hadith and only hinted at in the quran. Such as salah, if we took a quran only view, we would have no idea how to pray.


002.124
YUSUFALI: And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

From this we know that there is a position title the Imam, also from this we know that Allah choses the Imam, and the Imam can not be a wrong doer. It is also clear from this verse that the Imam will be from the descendants of Nabi Ibrahem AS.


021.073
YUSUFALI: And We made them leaders(Imams), guiding (men) by Our Command, and We sent them inspiration to do good deeds, to establish regular prayers, and to practise regular charity; and they constantly served Us (and Us only).

032.024
YUSUFALI: And We appointed, from among them, leaders(Imams), giving guidance under Our command, so long as they persevered with patience and continued to have faith in Our Signs.

Again we see that Allah alone selects the Imams, that there role is to guide under Allah's command, they are to be followed and obeyed as they are guiding by Allahs command.


004.059
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

Here we can see that Allah is ordering us to obey Himself, the Messenger SAW, and those charged with authority among us. Now if Allah has asked us to obey these people, it is therefore essential that these people can only give us clear guidance from Allah. If they did anything else, then Allah would be ordering us to follow, perhaps an evil doer. So then we would be getting punished for someone that Allah had ordered us to do.

Therefore the Prophet SAW and the Imams AS are completely infallible for the roles, EG they do their jobs perfectly.


017.071
YUSUFALI: One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.

Who is your Imam?

Inshallah will add more later, got to help with the dinner.

[leo]

As far as the connotation of the word "Imam" in the verses above is concerned, we first need to recall that none of the verses containing word "Imam" in the Qur'an supports the existence of a divinely-ordained rank distinct from and superior to the rank of Nubuwwah and Risalah. If the word "Imam" is taken in the sense as being perceived by shias, then what do you have to say about the word "imam" in ayat seventy-four of Surah Furqan:

- (They are) those who say: Our Lord, grant us the coolness of (our) eyes in our wives and children, and make us IMAMS of the pious ( وَاجْعَلْنَا لِلْمُتَّقِينَ إِمَاماً )."

So if we choose to use the definition of the word "imam" put forth by the Shias, then according to Furqan:74, any common muslim can attain the station of Imamat that is "higher than nubuwwat",

Is this what the Shias are ready to believe in?

[ahmedjbh]

how did you reach that conclusion leo?

Perhaps that verse is talking about the Imams, and not the common people.

Allah has already said that the covenant of Imamate is only to the good people in the descendants of nabi Ibrahem AS. So it would make sense, it would be a contradiction if we took your understanding of it.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

I will explain the shia doctrine of Imamate, however I would like you to explain the sunni doctrine of caliphate, its role and how it is selected.

I would also like to point out the question itself is flawed, as nobody claims to be "quranist", mainly concepts are detailed in hadith and only hinted at in the quran. Such as salah, if we took a quran only view, we would have no idea how to pray.



As far as I know no sunni claims any caliph was divine:)




002.124
YUSUFALI: And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

From this we know that there is a position title the Imam, also from this we know that Allah choses the Imam, and the Imam can not be a wrong doer. It is also clear from this verse that the Imam will be from the descendants of Nabi Ibrahem AS.



lol as far as I knew the '14 infallibles' were and are always referref to as the household of the Holy Prophet (SAW). Why you must steer off the course and go back centuries before Hijra to redefine this concept is strange.

Never knew the infallibles were known as ahle Ibrahim:)






021.073
YUSUFALI: And We made them leaders(Imams), guiding (men) by Our Command, and We sent them inspiration to do good deeds, to establish regular prayers, and to practise regular charity; and they constantly served Us (and Us only).

032.024
YUSUFALI: And We appointed, from among them, leaders(Imams), giving guidance under Our command, so long as they persevered with patience and continued to have faith in Our Signs.

Again we see that Allah alone selects the Imams, that there role is to guide under Allah's command, they are to be followed and obeyed as they are guiding by Allahs command.



I notice the past tense. 'we made', 'we appointed' rather than 'we HAVE made' or 'we HAVE appointed'. Seems like a generation before is being referred to, rather than one that is yet to come?




004.059
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.

Here we can see that Allah is ordering us to obey Himself, the Messenger SAW, and those charged with authority among us. Now if Allah has asked us to obey these people, it is therefore essential that these people can only give us clear guidance from Allah. If they did anything else, then Allah would be ordering us to follow, perhaps an evil doer. So then we would be getting punished for someone that Allah had ordered us to do.

Therefore the Prophet SAW and the Imams AS are completely infallible for the roles, EG they do their jobs perfectly.



It says obey Allah, the messenger (SAW) and those charged with authority amongst you. Then it also says refer back to the first two, but didnt say refer back to the 3rd, now thats going against shi'ism. A hint that the 3rd category i.e. leaders amongst you are not infallible:)






017.071
YUSUFALI: One day We shall call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams: those who are given their record in their right hand will read it (with pleasure), and they will not be dealt with unjustly in the least.

Who is your Imam?

Inshallah will add more later, got to help with the dinner.

hmmm....

Is the word Imam referring to a person or a book?

i.e.

And before it was the Book of Musa, a guide and a mercy. (Hud : 17)

And before it was the Book of Musa, a guide and a mercy. (al-Ahqaf : 12)

If a person, is it the Prophet of each generation?

If it is another person, who says they are divinely appointed infallibles?

So far you have much to prove ahmedjbh

Anymore?:)

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

I would also like to point out the question itself is flawed, as nobody claims to be "quranist", mainly concepts are detailed in hadith and only hinted at in the quran. Such as salah, if we took a quran only view, we would have no idea how to pray.


i don't think so. we are talking about major doctrinal issues here, which the Qur'an goes into great depth about. indeed, the more fiqhi aspects such as how specifically to pray are for Muslims to implement through observation of the ahadith/sunnah. it is the former which concerns our discusson. doctrines central to Islam are always covered in great depth by the Qur'an, such as tawhid/shirk, Allah and His attributes, nubuwwah, iman, akhirah etc. the central, fundamental doctrine of Shi'ism - that is, Imamate after Muhammad sallAllahu 'alayhi wa sallam - finds no support at all in the Qur'an.

[ahmedjbh]

It says obey Allah, the messenger (SAW) and those charged with authority amongst you. Then it also says refer back to the first two, but didnt say refer back to the 3rd, now thats going against shi'ism. A hint that the 3rd category i.e. leaders amongst you are not infallible


The Imams guide, they dont reveal anything. Thats why its reffered back.

So far nobody has refuted what I have said, or answered my question about the sunni concept of caliphate from the quran. I hope somebody can rise to the challenge.

[leo]

Perhaps that verse is talking about the Imams, and not the common people.


It is very obvious my friend that it cannot refer to a group of “divinely appointed Imams.”

[leo]

So far nobody has refuted what I have said, or answered my question about the sunni concept of caliphate from the quran. I hope somebody can rise to the challenge.

The concept of caliphate will also be dealt with, when we are over with the concept of infallible imamate. Diverting the topic towards caliphate will drag us away from the actual topic, which I think will be injustice with brother Zaid.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

The Imams guide, they dont reveal anything. Thats why its reffered back.



well it tells us who to obey. But tells us only to refer back to Allah and the messenger (SAW) if we differ in a matter. That makes sense in a sunni stance i.e. We obey those with authority with us, even an unjust leader, however we refer to Quran & Sunnah as commanded and not to the leader when we differ.

The shia position is at odds here. Just notice how the 3rd category is excluded in the latter part i.e. referring to in matters of difference.




So far nobody has refuted what I have said, or answered my question about the sunni concept of caliphate from the quran. I hope somebody can rise to the challenge.

LOL. You've been asked to prove the concept of Imamate from Quran as understood by shia i.e. infallible divine leaders, a concept which is the very fundemental of shi'ism. So far you quoted verses which mention the word Imam, thats all.

Like me asking you to prove the Democrats party, and you quotes loads which mention the word 'party'. Makes sense?

As for the sunni concept of caliphate, we do not believe that a caliph be divinely appointed by Allah and be infallible. Thus it is not a concept that is the CENTRAL point of our aqeeda like shi'ism.

Here's a pointer though:

Those who hearken to their Lord, and establish regular Prayer; who (conduct) their affairs by mutual Consultation; who spend out of what We bestow on them for Sustenance (42:38)

which is what the sahaba did


:)

[ahmedjbh]

well it tells us who to obey. But tells us only to refer back to Allah and the messenger (SAW) if we differ in a matter. That makes sense in a sunni stance i.e. We obey those with authority with us, even an unjust leader, however we refer to Quran & Sunnah as commanded and not to the leader when we differ.

The shia position is at odds here. Just notice how the 3rd category is excluded in the latter part i.e. referring to in matters of difference.

Its the complete oposite. The sunnis belevie they can follow anybody, the leader can be basically anybody. If that were true, then there is a paradox, as Allah can not tell us to do something wrong and then punish us for it.

This is why the Prophet SAW is completely infallible, as Allah has told us to obey him. Therefore everything I do which the Prophet SAW taught, is good and a guidance from Allah.

Allah has mentioned that we must obey those in authority as well, in the same sentance, so therefore they also must be infallible, Allah goes on to say


076.024
SHAKIR: Therefore wait patiently for the command of your Lord, and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one.

[Sawtul Islam]

wait wait wait ahmedjbhm so there were 13 Imams????

You just said Abraham was an "Imam" in the same sense that Shias believe regarding the 12.

So that would mean there are 13.

However Shia books say there have only been 12 and in fact Shias believe as stated in Osool al-Kafi and accepted by Shia scholars that the 12 Imams are so great that they existed even before Adam was created.

Now how come only the 12 existed before Adam (as) but Abraham (as) didnt??? If the title "Imam" for Abraham is the SAME as the title for the other 12, then why is Abraham always excluded from the list of Shia Imams and there is no mention of him existing "before Adam" in any Shia book or source???

So there is no evidence from Shias own beliefs that Abraham was an Imam in the same sense that the "12" were.

Also the Qur'an uses the word "Imam" for the leaders of Kuffar and in fact the Qur'an never defines the word "Imam" in the sense that the Shias believe. Imam means leader and Abraham (as) became the leader, if Imam meant anything like "infallible all knowing all powerful being who existed from the beginning of time" or anything else that the Shias believe then why is there no such explanation anywhere in the Qur'an?? Why does the Qur'an go into detail to explain about "less important things" but does not explain "Imamate" which is so extremely important according to Shias?

The answer of course is that the belief in "12 Imams" has absolutely nothing to do with the Qur'an which is why Shias had to later claim that the Qur'an had been changed by the Sahabah and this is why in Osool al-Kafi many of the verses of the Qur'an have been written very differently, adding words like "Ali" and "Fatimah" to verses that have no relevance to them and altering the word "Ummah" to "A'immah"(Imams) in numerous cases.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Its the complete oposite. The sunnis belevie they can follow anybody, the leader can be basically anybody. If that were true, then there is a paradox, as Allah can not tell us to do something wrong and then punish us for it.

This is why the Prophet SAW is completely infallible, as Allah has told us to obey him. Therefore everything I do which the Prophet SAW taught, is good and a guidance from Allah.

Allah has mentioned that we must obey those in authority as well, in the same sentance, so therefore they also must be infallible, Allah goes on to say


076.024
SHAKIR: Therefore wait patiently for the command of your Lord, and obey not from among them a sinner or an ungrateful one.

Interesting, seems like the very body of shi'ism crippling here.

We obey. We obey Allah & his messenger (SAW). Also we are told to obey thoese with authority amongst us i.e. our leaders. Now the latter part shows that this obeying of Allah & his messenger (SAW) is unconditional i.e. we cannot differ with them on a matter, whilst in regards to 'those with authority' the obeying is NOT totally unconditional because Allah tells us if we differ, then we must refer the matter back to Quran & Sunnah, and as you mentioned later we are commanded not to obey those who are sinners and/or ungrateful. If 'those who have authority' were infallible Imams, it would not be possible to differ with them (which contradicts the Quran as it states what we must do if we do differ), and we would refer back to them, but Allah exlcuded them from being referred back to. The Quran & Sunnah are divine, those with authority amongst us (other than Allah & his messenger saw) are not, this distinction is clearly made in the verse.

That should be clear.

[leo]

I will explain the shia doctrine of Imamate, however I would like you to explain the sunni doctrine of caliphate, its role and how it is selected.

002.124
YUSUFALI: And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands, which he fulfilled: He said: "I will make thee an Imam to the Nations." He pleaded: "And also (Imams) from my offspring!" He answered: "But My Promise is not within the reach of evil-doers."

From this we know that there is a position title the Imam, also from this we know that Allah choses the Imam, and the Imam can not be a wrong doer. It is also clear from this verse that the Imam will be from the descendants of Nabi Ibrahem AS.


A man is a Prophet when Allah communicates with him. A man is an Imam when men follow him. Allah being happy with Ibrahim (RA) rewarded him with Imamate. It does not make any sense to Imamate being superior to Prophethood.

1. Is the rank of being followed by men is higher than the rank of being communicated with Allah?

2. If Allah gives a childless prophet a son, should we conclude that rank of fatherhood is superior to rank of prophethood?

2. If Allah gives a political victory to a prophet over his opponents, should we conclude that rank of successful political leader is superior to rank of prophethood?

3. If Allah gives a prophet some ministry in the government of his state, should we conclude that rank of a minister is superior to rank of prophethood?

4. If Imamate was a continuous process in the progeny of Ibrahim (RA) as shia claim, then who was the Imam right before the Last Prophet? Abdullah, father of the Prophet? Abdul Muttalib? Or Abu Talib :D

[ahmedjbh]

So there is no evidence from Shias own beliefs that Abraham was an Imam in the same sense that the "12" were.

the evidence is in the quran that I put infront of you, I dont understand what you are trying to say. The 12 Imams refer to those after Prophet Muhammad SAW.

if Imam meant anything like "infallible all knowing all powerful being who existed from the beginning of time" or anything else that the Shias believe then why is there no such explanation anywhere in the Qur'an?? Why does the Qur'an go into detail to explain about "less important things" but does not explain "Imamate" which is so extremely important according to Shias?

The lies have started I see.

Where have I calimed that an Imam is all powerful? or exsisted at the beginning of time? I will only continue to reply to you if you promise not to lie any more.


We obey. We obey Allah & his messenger (SAW). Also we are told to obey thoese with authority amongst us i.e. our leaders. Now the latter part shows that this obeying of Allah & his messenger (SAW) is unconditional i.e. we cannot differ with them on a matter, whilst in regards to 'those with authority' the obeying is NOT totally unconditional because Allah tells us if we differ, then we must refer the matter back to Quran & Sunnah, and as you mentioned later we are commanded not to obey those who are sinners and/or ungrateful. If 'those who have authority' were infallible Imams, it would not be possible to differ with them (which contradicts the Quran as it states what we must do if we do differ), and we would refer back to them, but Allah exlcuded them from being referred back to. The Quran & Sunnah are divine, those with authority amongst us (other than Allah & his messenger saw) are not, this distinction is clearly made in the verse.

What you have said goes against the verse. The verse says Obey Allah, Obey Rasullah, and those in authority amongst you. This means that you have to obey those in authority just as if Allah had told you, as he is basically guiding via an Imam or Rasul.

This is the catch, you can not apply your "get out clause", becuase you must obey all 3 things. So it is unconditional. As for reffering back to the quran and sunnah, that is what the Imams will do, they have no extra sources to reffer to.


1. Is the rank of being followed by men is higher than the rank of being communicated with Allah?

Nabi Ibrahem AS was already a Prophet when Allah tested him and found him to be of excellent deeds, so he made him an Imam.

[leo]

Nabi Ibrahem AS was already a Prophet when Allah tested him and found him to be of excellent deeds, so he made him an Imam.

Please read the points mentioned in my previous post. I would appreciate if you give relevant reply.

[ahmedjbh]

If Allah gives a childless prophet a son, should we conclude that rank of fatherhood is superior to rank of prophethood?

nope.

2. If Allah gives a political victory to a prophet over his opponents, should we conclude that rank of successful political leader is superior to rank of prophethood?

nope.

3. If Allah gives a prophet some ministry in the government of his state, should we conclude that rank of a minister is superior to rank of prophethood?

nope.


4. If Imamate was a continuous process in the progeny of Ibrahim (RA) as shia claim, then who was the Imam right before the Last Prophet? Abdullah, father of the Prophet? Abdul Muttalib? Or Abu Talib

Who said it was continous?

[leo]

nope.



nope.



nope.



Who said it was continous?


If you reply is Nope against all the points, then you decide yourself about the misplaced concept of infallible imamate, hence established that there is no concept of infallible Imamate proved from Holy Quran.

Many shia claim that Allah doesn't leave Muslims w/o an Imam at any time, but again we see that the world is being run w/o any Imam for the last several hundred years, so it also nullifies the vague and baseless concept of four years old supposed Imam, hiding in a cave due to fear of his life :D

[ahmedjbh]

your logic is completely flawed, infalliblity is proved from my previous points.

Again there is no point refuting lies or ignorance on your behave, bring valid points that are worth my time in future.

[Sawtul Islam]

Where have I calimed that an Imam is all powerful? or exsisted at the beginning of time? I will only continue to reply to you if you promise not to lie any more.

12 Imami Shias believe this, if you dont know then that's your problem. If you like all other 12 Imami Shias get your religion from the "Marjas", then you should consult your "Marja" before saying that you dont believe these things.

What you have said goes against the verse. The verse says Obey Allah, Obey Rasullah, and those in authority amongst you. This means that you have to obey those in authority just as if Allah had told you, as he is basically guiding via an Imam or Rasul.

Your taking us back to the original question which was: Where is the evidence that these "12 Imams" have been given authority by Allah?


Nabi Ibrahem AS was already a Prophet when Allah tested him and found him to be of excellent deeds, so he made him an Imam.

You already said that, you're just repeating yourself.

I asked why do Shias reject that there were more than 12 Imams, yet you claim Abraham (as) was an "Imam" in the same sense??

And why is the "Imamate" of Abraham (as) mentioned in the Qur'an but the "Imamate" of the 12 is not mentioned? Do you think Allah wanted to hide this from people? So He didn't want Muslims to be 12 Imami Shias?

And finally, how do you know the term "Imam" has the same meaning the Shias give it when the word is also used to refer to the leaders of the Kuffar? Where is your evidence that "Imam" means anything other than what Sunnis believe?

[leo]

your logic is completely flawed, infalliblity is proved from my previous points.

Again there is no point refuting lies or ignorance on your behave, bring valid points that are worth my time in future.

You have failed to bring a single point in the favour of your baseless concept of Imamate :D take anti-depressant medicine and go to sleep. That also validates my point that shia matam really damages brain cells :D

[ahmedjbh]

12 Imami Shias believe this, if you dont know then that's your problem. If you like all other 12 Imami Shias get your religion from the "Marjas", then you should consult your "Marja" before saying that you dont believe these things.

the old tactic, telling the other person what he beleives. Your simply lying, there is no beleif that an Imam is all powerful, or has anypower outside that which Allah gives them.

Your taking us back to the original question which was: Where is the evidence that these "12 Imams" have been given authority by Allah?

So you admit there is a station called an Imam as Allah has said?

And finally, how do you know the term "Imam" has the same meaning the Shias give it when the word is also used to refer to the leaders of the Kuffar? Where is your evidence that "Imam" means anything other than what Sunnis believe?

From the quran, from the very verses I made clear to you. The real question is , where did the sunni get the idea of the caliphate from.



You have failed to bring a single point in the favour of your baseless concept of Imamate take anti-depressant medicine and go to sleep. That also validates my point that shia matam really damages brain cells

You asked for the verses, I brought them to you, and all you did is call me silly names or ignore the issues. Next time if you cant handle the truth , dont ask for it.

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

Theres actually a book on it from one of the members of islamic-forum.net

It can be purchased i think for 7 dollars or downloaded for like a dollar and some change. I downloaded it and it clearly refutes the imamate doctrine

[leo]

You asked for the verses, I brought them to you, and all you did is call me silly names or ignore the issues. Next time if you cant handle the truth , dont ask for it.

The verses neither mention about infallibility, nor about superiority of imamate over prophethood. Oddly enough you can't show name of any infallible imam except Muhammad (pbuh) who was the messenger of Allah, a prophet, not just Imam.

So please show us any other name of your infallible Imam from Quran, just one name.

Only one name

[Sawtul Islam]

the old tactic, telling the other person what he beleives. Your simply lying, there is no beleif that an Imam is all powerful, or has anypower outside that which Allah gives them.

Im not telling you what you believe but what Shias as a whole believe and I know this because I used to be Shia. You are either doing Taqiyyah or have not read many Shia books.


So you admit there is a station called an Imam as Allah has said?

lol, when did I "admit" this? I asked:

Where is the evidence that these "12 Imams" have been given authority by Allah?

I was asking you about your belief that's why I put 12 Imams in "". So answer the question instead of asking stupid questions like that.


From the quran, from the very verses I made clear to you.

The verse has nothing to do with your belief.

It's like a Christian who claims he has found "proof" that Muslims must convert to Christianity and his "proof" is that Jesus is mentioned in the Qur'an, not considering that Jesus in the Qur'an is a human Prophet while in Christianity they believe him to be "God" or the "son of God" or part of a "trinity".

You are doing the same claiming that the word "Imam" appearing in the Qur'an is proof of the "12 Infallibles" simply because you use the word "Imam" to refer to them.

[ahmedjbh]

lets take it one issue at a time, as the conversation is all disjointed.

Do you , or do you not accept that Nabi Ibrahem AS was given the title and status of an Imam by Allah, yes or no?

[leo]

lets take it one issue at a time, as the conversation is all disjointed.

Do you , or do you not accept that Nabi Ibrahem AS was given the title and status of an Imam by Allah, yes or no?

We have explained thoroughly that shia concept of imamate is not supported by Holy Quran.

[Nu7]

The Imams guide, they dont reveal anything. Thats why its reffered back.

So far nobody has refuted what I have said, or answered my question about the sunni concept of caliphate from the quran. I hope somebody can rise to the challenge.

This is a stupid argument. "Caliphate" is not an article of faith and its certainly not one of the five pillars of islam. "Imamat" however, is the single most central doctrine in your religion.

Also your argument about prayers not being talked about in detail is flawed. Prayer IS mentioned, but the details are left for the sunnah. Same goes for Shahaadah, Zakat, Hajj and fasting in Ramadaan. "Imamate" (as understood by the Raafidhites) is not even MENTIONED once!

[ahmedjbh]

Instead of closing your eyes and pretending the question is going away, answer my statement.



Join Date: Jan 2008

Originally Posted by ahmedjbh
lets take it one issue at a time, as the conversation is all disjointed.

Do you , or do you not accept that Nabi Ibrahem AS was given the title and status of an Imam by Allah, yes or no?


We have explained thoroughly that shia concept of imamate is not supported by Holy Quran.

[ahmedjbh]

Imamat" however, is the single most central doctrine in your religion.

thats simply not true, as per usual.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Instead of closing your eyes and pretending the question is going away, answer my statement.

He was made an Imam (leader) of his nation yes. I must of missed the part where it mentioned the 12 other ones:)

Now let me ask you a question ahmedjbh:

Do you acknowledge that their is NO EXPLICIT reference to the 12 Imams in the Quran?

[ahmedjbh]

So you now agree that there is a title called an Imam, it is different to a Prophet.

Ok , lets move on to the next point, what is the role of the Imam?

021.073
YUSUFALI: And We made them leaders(Imams), guiding (men) by Our Command, and We sent them inspiration to do good deeds, to establish regular prayers, and to practise regular charity; and they constantly served Us (and Us only).

032.024
YUSUFALI: And We appointed, from among them, leaders(Imams), giving guidance under Our command, so long as they persevered with patience and continued to have faith in Our Signs.

From the ayats we can see that they bring nothing new, but guide people to the straight path. Would you agree with Allah in this matter, are the Imams guides or not?

[zaid_ibn_ali]

So you now agree that there is a title called an Imam, it is different to a Prophet.

Ok , lets move on to the next point, what is the role of the Imam?

021.073
YUSUFALI: And We made them leaders(Imams), guiding (men) by Our Command, and We sent them inspiration to do good deeds, to establish regular prayers, and to practise regular charity; and they constantly served Us (and Us only).

032.024
YUSUFALI: And We appointed, from among them, leaders(Imams), giving guidance under Our command, so long as they persevered with patience and continued to have faith in Our Signs.

From the ayats we can see that they bring nothing new, but guide people to the straight path. Would you agree with Allah in this matter, are the Imams guides or not?

Ah but there's one problem ahmedjbh. Who are those that are being referred to in the above ayat? Please do answer this question before we can proceed.

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

Instead of closing your eyes and pretending the question is going away, answer my statement.

utter hypocrisy (and likely psychological projection), given your inability to answer a simple question (http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showpost.php?p=79156&postcount=31) despite being asked four times.


So you now agree that there is a title called an Imam, it is different to a Prophet.
a straw man argument. he didn't say that at all, he said that Ibrahim was made a leader. he certainly didn't say there was a distinct theological category known as "Imam", or that it connoted other than a prophet.


021.073
YUSUFALI: And We made them leaders(Imams), guiding (men) by Our Command, and We sent them inspiration to do good deeds, to establish regular prayers, and to practise regular charity; and they constantly served Us (and Us only).

032.024
YUSUFALI: And We appointed, from among them, leaders(Imams), giving guidance under Our command, so long as they persevered with patience and continued to have faith in Our Signs.
note how the parentheses (Imams) have been added by yourself - you give the misleading impression that it's part of Y. Ali's rendition. furthermore, equivocating the arabic word for leaders (a'immah, in reference to the prophets) with the Shi'ite conception of Imamate is entirely fallacious.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

how about:

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showpost.php?p=79380&postcount=91

ahmedjbh must be good at asteroids I guess, dodging is his game.

[Nu7]

This guy is not interested in a sincere debate. His only objective is to create doubt in the hearts of those who are weak.

[ahmedjbh]

note how the parentheses (Imams) have been added by yourself - you give the misleading impression that it's part of Y. Ali's rendition. furthermore, equivocating the arabic word for leaders (a'immah, in reference to the prophets) with the Shi'ite conception of Imamate is entirely fallacious.

What word is used in arabic then?


a straw man argument. he didn't say that at all, he said that Ibrahim was made a leader. he certainly didn't say there was a distinct theological category known as "Imam", or that it connoted other than a prophet.

Im not interested in what you say, Allah has said, after trailing Nabi Ibrahem AS, and passing all the trials, he made him and the good among his descendants Imams. That is what the verse says.

Really what this comes down to is do you beleive in all the quran, or just some of it.

[ahmedjbh]

This guy is not interested in a sincere debate. His only objective is to create doubt in the hearts of those who are weak.



They asked me to give the quranic verses which make Imamate clear. Which I have done, I know it angers you to see the truth, but thats tough.


I am not the one who goes to liar websites and copy and pastes complete lies and then calls it the truth like some of the people do in this forum. Then when confronted with the truth, goes completely silent or then goes back and copys and pastes some more in a new thread.

[leo]

What word is used in arabic then?

Im not interested in what you say, Allah has said, after trailing Nabi Ibrahem AS, and passing all the trials, he made him and the good among his descendants Imams. That is what the verse says.

But how did you reach the conclusion that the verse specially referred to figure 12 whereas this is not the case in actual.

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

What word is used in arabic then?



ahmed, are you having difficulty understanding what i wrote? please re-read the statement you quoted.


Im not interested in what you say, Allah has said, after trailing Nabi Ibrahem AS, and passing all the trials, he made him and the good among his descendants Imams. That is what the verse says.


what are you talking about? do you understand what a straw man fallacy is? that's what you did by misrepresenting Zaid's statement.

Really what this comes down to is do you beleive in all the quran, or just some of it.

and, as we have seen, there is absolutely no evidence for the core Shi'ite creed of 12 infallible imams vis-a-vis Imamate in the Qur'an.

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

They asked me to give the quranic verses which make Imamate clear. Which I have done...

i think we all know you did no such thing. you quoted irrelevant verses using the word a'immah or imam - which simply means leader(s)- in reference to prophets, and then imposed this crankish interpretation that it somehow mandates belief in the core Shi'ite creed of Imamate, which claims (12) infallible Imams after the final Prophet sallAllahu 'alayhi wa sallam.

I know it angers you to see the truth, but thats tough.it looks like this presumptious rhetoric is compensation for lack of substantiative arguments. :D

[leo]

ahmedjbn has failed to prove:-

1. The concept of imamate as being visualised by shia.

2. Superiority of imamate over prophethood.

3. Infallibility of imamate.

4. The names of Imams.

5. The reason why other ahle bayt not included in the list, why this game of pick n choose.

6. The crisis of command, since 12th Imam is not present for several hundred years and there is no one to guide and direct the Muslims.


I feel sorry for 7.58% minority :D

[zaid_ibn_ali]

you didnt reply to my post ahmedjbh.
let me point you to it again:


http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showpost.php?p=79378&postcount=38

Please answer then inshallah we can proceed.

Please brothers let us not allow anyone to get side tracked, as it gives the one who cant prove anything a way out of the pit.

Let ahmedjbh answer my question.

Hint: There's an obvious reason why he avoided my question and responded to the other posts. Inshallah we will see why very soon:)

[ahmedjbh]

Ok, lets go back to basics again.

Did Allah make Nabi Ibrahem AS an Imam, yes or no?

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Yes he did. He made him an Imam for his nation. Now how about you answer my question, the post above yours:)

[ahmedjbh]

So there must be a concept of an Imam, or Allah would not have given him and his pure descendants the covenant of being an Imam.

Next point is, what is the role of an Imam?

zaid, we will come to your question when we get to that point, theres no point jumping around, and getting confused.

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

Yes he did. He made him an Imam for his nation. Now how about you answer my question, the post above yours:)

Imam here simply meaning leader, not the Shi'i conception of "Imam". refer to the equivocation fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivocation). :rolleyes:

[zaid_ibn_ali]

well if ahmedjbh would answer my question, which i'm having to ask again, in relation to the same verse, then all would be apparent. So come on ahmedjbh. I answered your question in relation to the verse, now answer mines. Or is this a game of 'only I get to control the direction this debate takes place to suit my argument?' Hardly fair now is it.

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

... or Allah would not have given him and his pure descendants the covenant of being an Imam.
the Qur'an makes clear that the leaders (or "Imams") from among Ibrahim's descendants (AS) were prophets (i.e. 21:71-73). hence this assertion:

So there must be a concept of an Imam

remains unproven.

[Abu Nusaybah]

Bismillah.

Alhamdulillah, wa salaatu wa salaam ala Rasulullah.

I commend those of you brothers who have the patience to deal with this dajjal. However, I'm sure that you are all aware that you are almost certainly wasting your time with this evil person. It appears to me that he is one of those people described thusly by Allah (subhanahu wa ta'ala).
Indeed those who disbelieve - it is the same to them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.

Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them there is a great punishment.

And of the people are some who say, "we believe in Allah and the Last Day," but they are not believers.

They (think to) deceive Allah and those who believe, but they deceive not except themselves and perceive it not.

In their hearts is a disease, so Allah has increased their disease; and for them is a painful punishment because they (habitually) used to lie.

[Surah al-Baqarah : verses 6 - 10]
And Allah knows best.

wa salaam.

[Nu7]

They asked me to give the quranic verses which make Imamate clear. Which I have done, I know it angers you to see the truth, but thats tough.

Whoa, slow your role, Rafidhi! Nobody is angered, I just think it's pathetic that you keep dodging the questions that are directed at you.

[ahmedjbh]

the Qur'an makes clear that the leaders (or "Imams") from among Ibrahim's descendants (AS) were prophets (i.e. 21:71-73). hence this assertion:



remains unproven.



Prove to me from the quran that an Imam has to be a Prophet?

If that is the case, why are some Prophets not Imams, and some are?

[leo]

Prove to me from the quran that an Imam has to be a Prophet?

If that is the case, why are some Prophets not Imams, and some are?

First of all you need to tell us how did you know that some prophets were imams, while others were not. Where it is written in the Quran that few prophets were given this supposed rank and others not?

can you specify by name?

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

Prove to me from the quran that an Imam has to be a Prophet?


i simply said that the Qur'anic references to leaders from Ibrahim's descendants clearly connote the prophets, not a separate entity/category known as "Imams", especially when there is no evidence that there existed any such "Imams" operating alongside these prophets.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Prove to me from the quran that an Imam has to be a Prophet?

If that is the case, why are some Prophets not Imams, and some are?


dear oh dear. Brother Ibn 'abd al Jabbaar mentioned the Quranic ayat which mentioned who those leaders from Ibrahim's (AS) descendents were BY NAME, and they were all prophets, here I will quote them for you:

021.071
YUSUFALI: But We delivered him and (his nephew) Lut (and directed them) to the land which We have blessed for the nations.

021.072
YUSUFALI: And We bestowed on him Isaac and, as an additional gift, (a grandson), Jacob, and We made righteous men of every one (of them).

021.073
YUSUFALI: And We made them leaders, guiding (men) by Our Command, and We sent them inspiration to do good deeds, to establish regular prayers, and to practise regular charity; and they constantly served Us (and Us only).




So how do you dodge this by asking a question that side tracks what the brother put forward to you?

You still didnt answer my question as to who were those being referred to in the verses.

But lets nip this in the bud ahmedjbh. The Quranic verse you originally quoted:


021.073
YUSUFALI: And We made them leaders(Imams), guiding (men) by Our Command, and We sent them inspiration to do good deeds, to establish regular prayers, and to practise regular charity; and they constantly served Us (and Us only).

why did you omit the verses that preceeded 021.073 i.e.71 & 72? Oh maybe because they mention explicitly the names of who were being referred to. And surprise surprise, they were not the names of any your made up 'infallible Imams'.

The fact is that in all the verses, the past tense is used i.e. 'we made', 'we appointed', etc. Also the names of these are explicitly mentioned. All go back to events that occurred previously, hence the past tense. When these verses were revealed, all this occurred before and we are told of it. The shia line of Imams came about afterwards.

It would have been 'we will' or even 'we have' rather than 'we did'.

Get the point?

[ahmedjbh]

All that proves is a Prophet can be an Imam, you have failed to prove anything else. I have already explained that a Prophet can be an Imam, infact that is my point.

I asked you to prove that an Imam HAS to be a Prophet.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

what has been cleared up is that those verses were referring to the descendents of Ibrahim (AS) who have been mentioned by name in the Quran.

So do you have any verses that actually support your views ahmedjbh? I'm waiting for you to show me at least one:)

[ahmedjbh]

So far I have proved there is a position called an Imam, it is different to a Prophet. It appears nobody disagrees with that.

I then went on to show you the role of the Imam, so far nobody has disagreed with that either.

If you continue and answer the questions and follow the quran, we will arrive at the conclusion.

However your friends seem hell bent on going off at tangents.

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

I have already explained that a Prophet can be an Imam, infact that is my point.

wrong, your point was "So there must be a concept of an Imam, or Allah would not have given him and his pure descendants the covenant of being an Imam." - to which i said that there is no actual "concept" of Imam. Imam means leader, and the Qur'an uses it to refer to the prophets who were descended from Ibrahim ('alayhi salaam).


I asked you to prove that an Imam HAS to be a Prophet


the Qur'anic verse talks about prophets being made leaders or Imams. it says nothing about non-prophets being made leaders alongside these prophets - and this is what you have unsuccessfully tried to attribute to the Qur'an

it's interesting how you attempt to shift the burden of proof. i don't need to prove that "an Imam HAS to be a Prophet" - i am saying that when the Qur'an uses the word "leader" in the context of Ibrahim's descendants, it is clearly referring to the prophets. hence, your manipulation of these verses to prove the existence of a distinct group of non-prophets known as "Imams" is false.

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

However your friends seem hell bent on going off at tangents.

please recall how this debate has progressed. you attempted to prove the existence of Shi'i-style "Imams" among the descendants of Ibrahim by manipulating certain Qur'anic verses. i showed you that these verses actually refer to the prophets, as clarified by the context. hence, your original assertion about the Qur'an proving the presence of non-prophet infallible Imams (after Muhammad sallAllahu 'alayhi wa sallam) - the core belief of Shi'ism - is totally unfounded.


So far I have proved there is a position called an Imam, it is different to a Prophet. It appears nobody disagrees with that.
you haven't proven anything of the sort. you have simply been equivocating the arabic word for leader - which appears in the Qur'an, with the Shi'ite concept of 12 infallible "Imams" - which appears not in the Qur'an.

[Sawtul Islam]

What if I say there are 12 Imams but they are the Umayyads, the first one being Mu'awiyyah and the last one Marwan al-Himar.

I can just make this up and my "proof" for this totally new belief system would be equal to what is presented by the Shias.

I could say the same things, that the term "Imam" used for the descendents of Ibrahim (as) actually refers to the Ummayyads (since they too were descendents) and that these Umayyad rulers were infallible and blah blah blah.

I could say Mu'awiyyahs "right was stolen" but he was supposed to become the Imam and ruler right after the Prophet (saw).

And I could also use the Hadtih about 12 Caliphs from Quraysh and say, see the Hadith says Quraysh and the Umayyads were from Quraysh!!!!

See how easy it is to invent a Sect like Shiism?? Piece of cake! Then we could have some insane ceremonies where people beat themselves for one of the Umayyad rulers...

I mean really, this is how baseless Shiism is!

[leo]

Question

According to our Aqeedah, only person Masoom (sinless) are only the Imbhiyah (Prophets). The reference is also present on this site....However, some one brought to my attention 4:59, and similar verses from the same chapter, claim that the Massomiyat also extends to "the people who have authority"


Answer


In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Assalaamu `alaykum waRahmatullahi Wabarakatuh

The verse in question,

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آَمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ فَإِنْ تَنَازَعْتُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ فَرُدُّوهُ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَالرَّسُولِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآَخِرِ ذَلِكَ خَيْرٌ وَأَحْسَنُ تَأْوِيلًا

“O you who believe, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. Then, if you quarrel about something, revert it back to Allah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is good, and the best at the end.”

The above verse does not even remotely suggest that the people in authority are sinless. The commentators of the Holy Quran mention that this verse refers to obedience to the Muslim rulers in general or specifically to Muslim commanders during military expeditions. They do not mention anything in regards to such leaders being sinless. (Ruh al-Ma’ani, vol. 3 pgs.64-65)

Furthermore, it is the belief of the Ahlus Sunnah wa al-Jama’ah that the Ambiya are sinless as opposed to the Auliya and other general believers. Allamah Taftazani رحمه الله mentions that a Wali (saint) can never reach the status of a Nabi and among one of the stated reasons for this is the fact that Ambiya are Masoom (sinless) as opposed to the Auliya. (Sharh al-Aqa’id, pg. 164, Imdadiya)

(ولا يبلغ الولي درجة الأنبياء) لأن الأنبياء معصومون مأمونون عن خوف الخاتمة (شرح العقائد)

The claim that the people of authority are sinless extending from the purport of the above-mentioned verse is easily repelled by the fact that Abu Bakr رضى الله عنه was appointed as the first Khalifa of the Muslim Ummah by consensus of all the Sahaba رضى الله عنهم despite the fact that he was not Masoom. (Sharh al-Aqa’id, pg. 156, Imdadiya)


And Allah knows best

Wassalam


Mufti Ebrahim Desai
Darul Iftaa, Madrassah In'aamiyyah


http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=136c97d53c7302a8a874ed0894be9637


If no 1 companion (RA) of the prophet (pbuh) can not be called as masoom, then how can be anybody else


Wake up ya followers of Ibn Saba :mad:

[zaid_ibn_ali]

after reading the last few posts on this thread, I think the nail has been hit on the head.

ahmedjbh:

I think deep down, if you have any common sense, you know that the 'proofs' you put forward are clear manipulations of Quranic verses that were meant otherwise.

Inshallah you will stop your campaign against the Quran and its meanings and accept the Quran.

The Quran is our biggest weapon, do not try to fight it.

[ahmedjbh]

wrong, your point was "So there must be a concept of an Imam, or Allah would not have given him and his pure descendants the covenant of being an Imam." - to which i said that there is no actual "concept" of Imam. Imam means leader, and the Qur'an uses it to refer to the prophets who were descended from Ibrahim ('alayhi salaam).

We have already answered this, but I will go over it again. Allah made Nabi Ibrahem AS an Imam after passing certain tests, it wasnt something that he inherently was becuase he was a prophet, he had worked hard and Allah chose him to be an "Imam for the nations".

So to go on to imply as you and your friends are doing, that this is just a nothing, and that anybody can achieve this status, completely misses the point of the verse.

O you who believe, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you

So Allah is going to tell us that we must obey a sinner? a fasiq, a munafiq? a kaffir?

So if we obey a kaffir and then that leads us astray, how fair is that, as we only initially followed Allahs orders?

No, that can not be correct. If we read around, we see Allah makes it clear.

076.024
YUSUFALI: Therefore be patient with constancy to the Command of thy Lord, and hearken not to the sinner or the ingrate among them.

This nullifies sawtul islams idea about starting a new religion, as the people must be infallible to meet Allahs criteria, and Allah selects the Imams.

If Allah guides us, no one can misguide us. If we do as Allah asks, how can we be misguided?



after reading the last few posts on this thread, I think the nail has been hit on the head.

ahmedjbh:

I think deep down, if you have any common sense, you know that the 'proofs' you put forward are clear manipulations of Quranic verses that were meant otherwise.

Inshallah you will stop your campaign against the Quran and its meanings and accept the Quran.

The Quran is our biggest weapon, do not try to fight it.

If we look through history, we can see how infact its the complete opposite. Tyrannical rulers have manipulated the public to get them to take them as rulers and follow their laws no matter how anti islamic they appear to be. The scholars seem to be silent or quote weak hadiths that suggest you must always obey the ruler no matter what he says.

Saudi regeme anyone?

[zaid_ibn_ali]

please define the arabic word 'imam' and its meanings.

[Hamza]

I can just make this up and my "proof" for this totally new belief system would be equal to what is presented by the Shias.


Exactly - the shiite have always been twisters and ambiguous because they have no solid evidence

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

We have already answered this, but I will go over it again.

stick to one pronoun when referring to yourself. ;)

Allah made Nabi Ibrahem AS an Imam after passing certain tests, it wasnt something that he inherently was becuase he was a prophet, he had worked hard and Allah chose him to be an "Imam for the nations".Allah made Ibrahim a leader. that fact alone doesn't prove there exists a doctrinal or theological category known as "Imam" alongside the category of "prophet", nor does it prove the Shi'ite doctrine of Imamate.

[ahmedjbh]

It does absolutely prove it, and if you look at all of the verse provided, you will see there is no alternative.

Either you beleive the Imam is the authority from Allah, which must be obeyed, who is a guide from Allah. ( as sunni and shia hadith confirm)

Or you beleive the Imam is anybody, you must obey them, even though you may be punished for obeying Allah.


Which reminds me, when is the caliphate of sunnism going to be explained, I see nobody has even tried to so far.

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

It does absolutely prove it, and if you look at all of the verse provided, you will see there is no alternative.

looking at all of the verses provided, Allah says that Ibrahim and prophets from among his descendants were made leaders. to claim that this establishes the Shi'i concept of Infallible "Imams" after the Prophet sallAllahu 'alayhi wa sallam is a complete non-sequitur.

Either you beleive the Imam is the authority from Allah, which must be obeyed, who is a guide from Allah. ( as sunni and shia hadith confirm)you are getting far too ahead of yourself. you haven't even proven that the Qur'an verifies anything other than the fact that Allah made Ibrahim a leader of nations, let alone that the Qur'an ever refers to the non-prophets of Ibrahim's descendants as "Imams", or that the Qur'an mandates belief in infallible "Imams" after the final prophet sallAllahu 'alayhi wa sallam.


Which reminds me, when is the caliphate of sunnism going to be explained, I see nobody has even tried to so far.this thread is about the core Shi'i doctrine of Imams after Muhammad (saws), and its absence from the Qur'an.

[Sawtul Islam]

If we look through history, we can see how infact its the complete opposite. Tyrannical rulers have manipulated the public to get them to take them as rulers and follow their laws no matter how anti islamic they appear to be. The scholars seem to be silent or quote weak hadiths that suggest you must always obey the ruler no matter what he says.

Saudi regeme anyone?

Please show me a Hadith that Sunnis believe that says we must obey "anti Islamic" rulers.

The Hadith about obeying rulers is stated in SAHIH books through authentic chains that the ruler must be obeyed even if he is a sinner so long as he runs the Government Islamically and defends the Muslims.

In fact this is even stated in your own "NahjolBalaqah", but as far as rulers who oppose Islam like the Saudis and Khamenehi are concerned, Sunnis believe that they must be overthrown.

[leo]

Allah made Nabi Ibrahem AS an Imam after passing certain tests, it wasnt something that he inherently was becuase he was a prophet, he had worked hard and Allah chose him to be an "Imam for the nations".


A new task given to a Prophet does not necessarily mean that the rank due to that task alone (without prophethood) is higher than rank of prophethood.


1. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was a prophet as well as an Imam.

2. Ali (RA) was also an Imam though not a prophet.

3. So Muhammad (RA) had two distinct positions, one that of a prophet and the other, that of an Imam.

4. Imamate is higher than Prophethood.

5. At first, Muhammad (pbuh) was only a prophet, and then he was lifted to the higher rank of Imam.

6. Ali (RA) was directly appointed to the higher rank of Imam.


What does that mean? What should we conclude? Imam Ali (RA) had higher rank than the rank of Prophethood. Muhammad (RA) excelled Ali (RA) due only to the fact that he was a superior Imam, not due to his lower position of prophethood. Is that what you mean?

I have replied you according to your definition of Imam, now I request you to answer me in the light of your own statement.

[ahmedjbh]

your assumptions are incorrect, as per usual leo, lol.

Prophet Muhammad SAW is a higher "rank" than Imam Ali . I dont think you will find any argument about that.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

ahmedjbh:

Please define the word 'Imam'.

[leo]

your assumptions are incorrect, as per usual leo, lol.

Prophet Muhammad SAW is a higher "rank" than Imam Ali . I dont think you will find any argument about that.


Look at your twisted arguement now. I knew that already that you can't refute my reasoning, which is based in the light of your own statement that Ibrahim (pbuh) was made Imam only when he passed certain tests, whereas Ali (RA) was appointed Imam directly, so who would have been higher, had Muhammad (pbuh) not been made Imam?

[leo]

I think, ahmedjbn has no more arguments to offer. If he is sincere, these posts by the brothers will help him reconsider about his beliefs, if not, then only Allah Almighty can help him, since guidance comes from HIM only. It reminds me about the origin of shias also, someone rightly said:-


Once upon a time Abu Hanifah went to the mosque and saw a group of shia sitting there. He immediately took off his sandles and carried them in his armpits as if to hide it from the shia. The shias later asked oh Abu Hanifah why did you take off your sandles and carry them like the way you did?

Abu Hanifah replied in the days of the Rasul (pbuh) the shia used to steal the sandles of the sunnis. The shia laughed at Abu Hanifah and said THERE WERE NO SHIAS IN THE TIME OF THE RASUL (pbuh)

Abu Hanifah said exactly my point, shiaism is a newly invented matter and every newly invented matter is in the hellfire :D

[ahmedjbh]

Look at your twisted arguement now. I knew that already that you can't refute my reasoning, which is based in the light of your own statement that Ibrahim (pbuh) was made Imam only when he passed certain tests, whereas Ali (RA) was appointed Imam directly, so who would have been higher, had Muhammad (pbuh) not been made Imam?

You havent reasoned anything. You simply assume things that arent correct and try and make conclusions based on false assumptions.

If you cant see your own error, i genuinely feel sorry for you.

Once upon a time Abu Hanifah went to the mosque and saw a group of shia sitting there. He immediately took off his sandles and carried them in his armpits as if to hide it from the shia. The shias later asked oh Abu Hanifah why did you take off your sandles and carry them like the way you did?

Abu Hanifah replied in the days of the Rasul (pbuh) the shia used to steal the sandles of the sunnis. The shia laughed at Abu Hanifah and said THERE WERE NO SHIAS IN THE TIME OF THE RASUL (pbuh)

Abu Hanifah said exactly my point, shiaism is a newly invented matter and every newly invented matter is in the hellfire

Only you would be so naive as to be a fairy tale such as this, it even starts with "once upon a time"

lol, I actually laughed quite hard when I read that, you made my day.

Shall I inform you of how Abu Hanifa was a student of the shia Imam Sadiq?

If i remember correctly he is reported to have said, if it wasnt for my years with Jafa As Sadiq, I would have been destroyed.

[Sawtul Islam]

Shall I inform you of how Abu Hanifa was a student of the shia Imam Sadiq?

If i remember correctly he is reported to have said, if it wasnt for my years with Jafa As Sadiq, I would have been destroyed.

Imam Ja'far al-Sadique was not a Imami Shiah.
To say that he was is like saying Jesus was a Christian.

What Shias have are hundreds of thousands of random narrations from him that contradict eachother over and over and over, and Shias admit that they dont have any Sahih/authentic books.

So Shias dont even know what Imam Ja'far Sadiq actually said, because they after over a 1000 years have not managed to seperate the authentic from the unauthentic sayings of his.

So if Shias themselves dont know what Imam Ja'far Sadiq as well as others from his fathers and descendents like Imam Baqir and Zynul Abedeen and others really said, then how can Shias claim to be their followers??

Sunnis however follow people who were close to him like Imam Abu Hanifah and Imam Malik (whether or not Abu Hanifah was his student is disputed but he knew him and Imam Malik was his student) and these men wrote books on Islam that exist to this day.

So the beliefs of Sunnis are obviously very close to the teachings of Imam Ja'far Sadique while the beliefs of the Shias come from "Ayatollah" who choose from their random books of riwayat which narrations they wish to follow and which to reject simply based on their opinions which change over time.

[leo]

Only you would be so naive as to be a fairy tale such as this, it even starts with "once upon a time"

lol, I actually laughed quite hard when I read that, you made my day.

Shall I inform you of how Abu Hanifa was a student of the shia Imam Sadiq?

If i remember correctly he is reported to have said, if it wasnt for my years with Jafa As Sadiq, I would have been destroyed.


What you have to do with day/date? You should be concerned about the actual message, not about DTG.

Abu Hanifa (may Allah be pleased with him) was born in 80 AH, while Jaffar Sadiq (may Allah be pleased with him) in 83 AH, they did consult each other as contemporaries, the arguement has already been refuted by our scholars. You could have metioned about Baqir (may Allah be pleased with him) as Abu Hanifa did seek knowledge from him, but again he wasn't his permanent teacher. And before you produce bogus claim of qias relating to Abu Hanifa, after having failed to defend shia strange theory of imamate, you must know, that too has been refuted well by our scholars :D

[ahmedjbh]

What you have to do with day/date? You should be concerned about the actual message, not about DTG.

Abu Hanifa (may Allah be pleased with him) was born in 80 AH, while Jaffar Sadiq (may Allah be pleased with him) in 83 AH, they did consult each other as contemporaries, the arguement has already been refuted by our scholars. You could have metioned about Baqir (may Allah be pleased with him) as Abu Hanifa did seek knowledge from him, but again he wasn't his permanent teacher. And before you produce bogus claim of qias relating to Abu Hanifa, after having failed to defend shia strange theory of imamate, you must know, that too has been refuted well by our scholars :D

Weakest argument I have seen from you yet leo, quite impressive.

His reasoning is, because he was 3 years younger, he can not be the teacher of him. How weak is that reasoning?

By that logic the Prophet SAW could not have taught anybody older than him either ?

[leo]

Weakest argument I have seen from you yet leo, quite impressive.

His reasoning is, because he was 3 years younger, he can not be the teacher of him. How weak is that reasoning?

By that logic the Prophet SAW could not have taught anybody older than him either ?

If I start discussing Jaffar Sadiq and Abu Hanifa, the discussion regarding imamate would be diverted, which seems to be your priority objective, since you have failed to defend the sketchy and baseless concept of shia imamate.

But to make you happy, even if we take Abu Hanifa as a student and Jaffar Sadiq as a teacher (may Allah be pleased with both of them), how does it prove legitimacy of shia concept of imamate?

[ahmedjbh]

It doesnt, im just correcting your lies.

[leo]

Lies are acknowledged and accepted as one of the articles of faith in shia minority. We being in majority for the last 1400 years need not to.

[Abu Nusaybah]

Bismillah.

The funniest thing about the 12 "infallible" imams BS of the rafidah, is that the 12th "hidden" imam, is supposedly the son of the 11th imam (I don't know there names as I don't need to know). However, it appears as though even the history books of the rafidah khabeeth show that the 11th imam didn't have a son. :confused: Abdurrahman ad-Dimashqi, has some excellent refutations of all the BS beliefs of the Rafidah.

The fictional Mahdi that the rafidah are awaiting, is in fact al-Maseeh ad-Dajjal.

And Allah knows best.

wa salaam.

[ahmedjbh]

Im not supprised at all that you love that scholar and love his books, he claims himself he was a gay and kicked out of university for it.

You have to love the wahabi sources of knowledge!

absolute classic, lol.

Seems your sunni brothers dont like the wahabi "scholars" ! lol.


http://www.sunna.info/souwar/img303.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqikyY4HuI4

[ahmedjbh]

Lies are acknowledged and accepted as one of the articles of faith in shia minority. We being in majority for the last 1400 years need not to.

Brother, again you are incorrect.

Bring evidence if you can.

But is anyone supprised?

Frankly all you are doing is just making up stories to avoid any real issues.

[Sawtul Islam]

Bismillah.
The funniest thing about the 12 "infallible" imams BS of the rafidah, is that the 12th "hidden" imam, is supposedly the son of the 11th imam (I don't know there names as I don't need to know). However, it appears as though even the history books of the rafidah khabeeth show that the 11th imam didn't have a son.

lol yeah they say he was doing "taqiyyah" so that his son would not be killed, but at the same time Shias say no one could kill the "Imams" if they did not allow them to and they only died when they wanted to!! If that was the case then why would his father lie???

And it's funny how Shias so often accuse their own "infallible Imams" of lying, LOL.



:confused: Abdurrahman ad-Dimashqi, has some excellent refutations of all the BS beliefs of the Rafidah.

The fictional Mahdi that the rafidah are awaiting, is in fact al-Maseeh ad-Dajjal.


Brother do you know where I can find Damashqi's speeches? Im specifically looking for the one about Ashoora.

As for Dajjal being the Shias "Mahdi", that is absolutely true. In fact I was probably one of the first people to expose this, a few years ago I wrote a lot of articles about this all over the internet.

[leo]

Brother, again you are incorrect.

Bring evidence if you can.

But is anyone supprised?

Frankly all you are doing is just making up stories to avoid any real issues.

What are real issues :D

You mean:-

White horses in bridal dress, cursing, beating and injuring of bodies, pleasure marriages, additions / deletions in Quran, non-prophets higher than prophets, 4 years old hidden Imam and wilaya of grand ayatollas

Anything else, which haven't been rejected by our scholars, you can bring forth for discussion.

We can understand the IQ/vision of rafida who base their religious beliefs upon animals and expect miracles from horses during Muharram :D

[zaid_ibn_ali]

well Imamate and Quran has been discussed. Ahmedjbh has expressed his (shia) views on the matter. We have expressed ours. Now the people who may be interested can readback over this thread and make their own mind up as to whose side of the story is a total shambles, shouldnt be to hard, but please dont laugh to loud when you read a certain individuals posts:)

[ahmedjbh]

What are real issues :D

You mean:-

White horses in bridal dress, cursing, beating and injuring of bodies, pleasure marriages, additions / deletions in Quran, non-prophets higher than prophets, 4 years old hidden Imam and wilaya of grand ayatollas

Anything else, which haven't been rejected by our scholars, you can bring forth for discussion.

We can understand the IQ/vision of rafida who base their religious beliefs upon animals and expect miracles from horses during Muharram :D

Just when I thought you couldnt be any more basic, you go and write a post like that.

Its people like you that turn people away from sunnisn, and into all sorts of other different paths. I myself chose shiasm, simply because I invested the lies and the slanders which have come from your own writings, and proven them to be false.

You do yourself no good at all when you lie, it just confirms that you are afraid and that deep down you know the only way to stop the truth from spreading is to lie and slander.

[leo]

I myself chose shiasm, simply because I invested the lies and the slanders which have come from your own writings, and proven them to be false.


I don't mind, rather you can take brelvis with you. They are becoming burden on us really :D

[suhail]

ahmedjbh you are a very poor reasearcher at best because first of all you have no idea of arabic it seems and then you chose shiaism which is a totally false religion