At-Tibyan Publications

[C47]

Asalamualaykum all,

how trustworthy is this publisher? does anyone know anything abot this publisher (background information)?

i have doubts about the people behind it....

if there are any live sites..post em here or pm me

Allah Hafiz

[Mustafa al-Muhaajir]

wa 'Alaykum as-Salam

i have doubts about the people behind it ....
What would you make you say that ?

[al-Athari]

Just stay away from the 'shriki' issues that they discuss, other then that they have done a lot of khayr may Allah reward them.

http://tibyan.wordpress.com/

May Allah guide all of us to that which he loves

[C47]

well for one the "In Pursuit of Freedom" is total bogus content

you mean shirk? can you tell me which book are you talking about

[Mustafa al-Muhaajir]

well for one the "In Pursuit of Freedom" is total bogus content
What's bogus ?
You gotta like the cover page.

[C47]

accepting the 19 hijackers theory to be precise

[hifdh]

There are some noteable former Tibyan brothers / translators on this forum. You are highly advised to avoid their websites and publications, do a search on this forum and lookout for posts by Abuz-Zubair on this topic.

[al-Athari]

you mean shirk

Voting, Seeking Judgement from the Taghuut etc. And I think these were the issues that brother Abuz-Zubair had with at-Tibyan which he very well refuted.

[hifdh]

Voting, Seeking Judgement from the Taghuut etc. And I think these were the issues that brother Abuz-Zubair had with at-Tibyan which he very well refuted.

You agree that abuz-zubair refuted them very well! His refutations were thorough and exposed T-boys brilliantly.

[al-Athari]

You agree that abuz-zubair refuted them very well! His refutations were thorough and exposed T-boys brilliantly.

Yup, and so did brother Abu Sabaaya may Allah reward them both ameen.

[AbuUsama]

There are some noteable former Tibyan brothers / translators on this forum. You are highly advised to avoid their websites and publications, do a search on this forum and lookout for posts by Abuz-Zubair on this topic.

Then why you don't recommend Spub and troid instead ? may Allah(swt) protect us from cowards within Ummaa

[Brother_Mujahid]

Then why you don't recommend Spub and troid instead ? may Allah(swt) protect us from cowards within Ummaa

That my friend is what we call a logical fallacy. The logical premise of your argument is if one doesn't support Tibyan then one must support TROID\Salafi Publications, even though this doesn't follow. Using such a non sequitur only makes you look silly, disingenuous, and ignorant.

[hussain]

There are some noteable former Tibyan brothers / translators on this forum. You are highly advised to avoid their websites and publications, do a search on this forum and lookout for posts by Abuz-Zubair on this topic.

Muslims and Muslims translators make mistakes from time to time, may Allah azza wa jal guide us all and forgive us our mistakes.

Some of us may get emotive sometimes and we may cling to opinions when we are in error because we may mistakenly believe we are doing what is right, according to Quran and Sunnah.

But to condemn wholesale a group of brothers because some of them may have done what most of us do, at some time in our lives - especially when we are young - does seem to going beyond the limits of Adab.

Do you who so publicly condemn know what is in all of their hearts? Do you have conviction enough to fearlessly stand before Allah azza wa jal and justify what you have said against your brothers?

[Abu Shu'aib]

That my friend is what we call a logical fallacy. The logical premise of your argument is if one doesn't support Tibyan then one must support TROID\Salafi Publications, even though this doesn't follow. Using such a non sequitur only makes you look silly, disingenuous, and ignorant.

well said!

[AbuUsama]

That my friend is what we call a logical fallacy. The logical premise of your argument is if one doesn't support Tibyan then one must support TROID\Salafi Publications, even though this doesn't follow. Using such a non sequitur only makes you look silly, disingenuous, and ignorant.

To Brother_Soldier

Well I just asked him a question ,

Then why you don't recommend Spub and troid instead ?

its his turn to answer am still waiting for his answer Insha Allah and I did not use any logic, if you can't understand that simple English Sentence its not my fault . btw Where are you from ? hope you are not from rusia

btw i translated your user id hope you would never mind,

[Abandoned-Mind]

There are some noteable former Tibyan brothers / translators on this forum. You are highly advised to avoid their websites and publications, do a search on this forum and lookout for posts by Abuz-Zubair on this topic.

Being a member of a forum of a group/site/organisation does not make you a member of the organisation. The is one former translator here... and all respect to the bro for his work, then and now masha'Allaah...

It is like saying the sword33 or whatever his name was got banned and started to post on say SunniForum - some idiot what claim "We have a noteable former IslamicAwakening.com brother..."...

Be fair people and not a bunch of obnoxious edited (That goes to all of us)

[Abuz Zubair]

Do you who so publicly condemn know what is in all of their hearts? Do you have conviction enough to fearlessly stand before Allah azza wa jal and justify what you have said against your brothers?

MashaaAllah... Khawarij with your opponents, and Murjis with your friends.

Have people no shame? Have they no concern for Sharia?

Why were the yahood cursed for changing the text deliberately and persisting there upon, whilst Tibyan are continued to be excused?!

All of this only goes on to prove that you guys are the enemies within.

I mean, distorting, underlining, bolding and italicising a text and attributing it to Sharia is one thing, and persisting on this distortion is something else! What is the difference between you and the zanadiqa?!

[anam]

I wonder what the distortions were

and if so authobillaah, even a weak muslims faith would prevent him or her from this and persisting in it...

i thought tibyan were ok as they were mentioning many topics that weren't discussed or neglected altogether and translating what the scholors have said ...is it the name in general or a few of the translators?

[Abuz Zubair]

Their entire document on 'intentionally targeting women and children' was a shame. In the entire document they could not find a single text to justify the targeting of women and children in retribution, so they got hold of a Prophetic hadeeth where the companions asked the Prophet "should we not take their women and children is captives?" and they took the liberty to translate it as: "so shall we not kill them" (bold, italics and underline is all theirs).

And after having been corrected for over several years, they still show no remorse.

Someone tell me, why can't they now be called the yahood of the Ummah as they would like to call others? Why aren't they the zanadiqa for their rape of Sharia?

[Nu7]

Maybe we should have a thread warning against certain websites where distortions of Sharee'a take place? Are there any other publications/sites one should be aware of?? I don't want to download some distorted text by accident.

Who runs websites such as www.islamhouse.com and www.islambasics.com?? Also Kalamullah.com?

I have downloaded many of their books and wanted to start reading, but now I am a bit confused since I don't know how reliable they are.

Jazaakumullahu Khayr in advance dear brothers and sisters.

[Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari]

MashaaAllah... Khawarij with your opponents, and Murjis with your friends.

Have people no shame? Have they no concern for Sharia?

Why were the yahood cursed for changing the text deliberately and persisting there upon, whilst Tibyan are continued to be excused?!

All of this only goes on to prove that you guys are the enemies within.

I mean, distorting, underlining, bolding and italicising a text and attributing it to Sharia is one thing, and persisting on this distortion is something else! What is the difference between you and the zanadiqa?!

Assalamu 'Alaykum,

Ya akhi can you please give examples of where they are distorting the texts. I only know of that one mistake they made on translateing. As for their translation works then I have to give credit where its due and they've done a marvalous job, expecially compared to some of the horrible translation jobs we see in most of the Islamic Book stores. I mean has anyone here ever read any of the Egyptian publishers translations?

So bro if you have a beaf with them because of what their translating then you have to take the so-called "Distortion" of the texts with the scholars that their translating not them.

As for the brothers statment you quoted, yeah it was a bad statement and a quote commonly used by the Murji'ah but I think you took it out of context, I think he meant that the mistake they made in translation wasn't done intentionally as does "Some" people. As for me I would have choosen better words.

I end saying may Allah reward the brothers at Tibyan for their works and may they keep providing the Ummah with Jewels of knowledge. Jizak Allah khair.

[Abuz Zubair]

Here you go, another one from the hood defends the homies...

When will you guys grow out of your gang culture and have some respect for Sharia?

Their entire document on 'intentionally targeting women and children' was a shame. In the entire document they could not find a single text to justify the targeting of women and children in retribution, so they got hold of a Prophetic hadeeth where the companions asked the Prophet "should we not take their women and children is captives?" and they took the liberty to translate it as: "so shall we not kill them" (bold, italics and underline is all theirs).

And after having been corrected for over several years, they still show no remorse.

Someone tell me, why can't they now be called the yahood of the Ummah as they would like to call others? Why aren't they the zanadiqa for their rape of Sharia?

Do you have any sensible reply to this?

[hussain]

MashaaAllah... Khawarij with your opponents, and Murjis with your friends.

Have people no shame? Have they no concern for Sharia?

Why were the yahood cursed for changing the text deliberately and persisting there upon, whilst Tibyan are continued to be excused?!

All of this only goes on to prove that you guys are the enemies within.

I mean, distorting, underlining, bolding and italicising a text and attributing it to Sharia is one thing, and persisting on this distortion is something else!

Akhi, what I meant was that if they were and are mistakes made by some translators - and the consensus here is that there were some mistakes or a mistake - then this may not have been deliberate falsification, and when the mistake(s), the error(s) were pointed out, those who made such a mistake or mistakes may have not changed them for a whole variety of reasons, possibly stubbornness, or lack of knowledge, or because they still felt they may have been right. Also, if one or two of those brothers have made such mistakes, why so harshly condemn all the work done by many brothers over many years, implying that all of them and all of their works should be avoided and condemned for mistakes made by one or a few?

Also, have the brothers there not done some some good work?

But - is calling them "the enemy within" possibly going to another extreme?

What is the difference between you and the zanadiqa?!

I think the answer should be obvious, if one does not rush to make a judgment, one does not throw certain terms around, and one allows for one's brother to make a mistake or even not express himself very well.

[Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari]

Here you go, another one from the hood defends the homies...

When will you guys grow out of your gang culture and have some respect for Sharia?


LOL, gang culture? Now we are considered to have a "Gang" mentality because we defend a group of publishers. First of all gangs don't write books and spend time translating scholary works so I can't see the comparison or anology your tryin to give here.

As for your old little quote of them "Rapeing the Sharee'ah" then like what you brits say "Thats Rubbish". And I guess you forgot that the reality is that your refutation isn't limited to "Tibyan Publications" as you wish it was, but your trying to refute alot of scholars who have written about this issue. I'd say go back 20 years and read every scholars work that came out of Palestine on this issue. I can't remember which article but I remember that one scholar got about 200 plus scholars from around Ash-Sham (Syria, Palestine Jordan etc) to sign that it is permissible to target all the Isrealis. And this is known and I don't need to go on a mouse hunt and find all these scholars works, you've been around long enough to know this. So really brother who is the person that is "Distorting" the truth here. It would've been better for you to admit that this opinion is shared by many scholars and tried to explain why it isn't correct, rather than taking an insulting offensive against the brothers claiming that they are "Rapeing the Sharee'ah".

Your taking advantage of the ignorance of many of the english speaking people and making it seem like this opinion was only held by Al-Qaidah and Tibyan, where the reality is that it was and still is held by many scholars. I wouldn't say that the employees in Saudi Arabia would hold this opinion, but go and see what the Palestinian scholars say about this, or the Jordainian (Not Madkhalis) scholars. Of course not recent works, because the government has cracked down on this for a while now, but go back to 20 year old works and you'll find what I'm talking about.

Do you have any sensible reply to this?

[Hamza]

AZ is harsh but he has a valid point, altho i tend to also agree with al-Athari:

Just stay away from the 'shriki' issues that they discuss, other then that they have done a lot of khayr may Allah reward them.

http://tibyan.wordpress.com/

May Allah guide all of us to that which he loves

It would be so much better if Tibyan dumped this intentional targetting of women & children nonsense document.

[AlHindi]

Surely, it is loads of ARROGANCE and JEALOUSY (imo)which leads to this gang culture

Some of these guys here are scumbags and haven't the courage to acknowledge even *some* good in their opponents.

Allah's refuge is to be sought from any status or position which makes one arrogant and full of pride.

[Abu Ma'mar]

I can't remember which article but I remember that one scholar got about 200 plus scholars from around Ash-Sham (Syria, Palestine Jordan etc) to sign that it is permissible to target all the Isrealis.


bro, are you saying that the jews occupying philistine ( plz don't call them Israelis) are civilians ?

All citizens above the legal age are enlisted in the army and must fight. All citizens can be called up to the army to fight and serve their duty at any time.

So they are all walking soldiers , men and women , as the jews are one of the few states who make women enlistment mandatory.

So thats why scholars don't have a problem with people hitting night clubs.

[Hamza]

What about the kids in these cafe's and the passers by? And what of those who are NOT called up by the Army?

[Abuz Zubair]

Akhi, what I meant was that if they were and are mistakes made by some translators - and the consensus here is that there were some mistakes or a mistake - then this may not have been deliberate falsification, and when the mistake(s), the error(s) were pointed out, those who made such a mistake or mistakes may have not changed them for a whole variety of reasons, possibly stubbornness, or lack of knowledge, or because they still felt they may have been right. Also, if one or two of those brothers have made such mistakes, why so harshly condemn all the work done by many brothers over many years, implying that all of them and all of their works should be avoided and condemned for mistakes made by one or a few?

Man... if these guys were to rewrite the entire Quran for you, you would still consider them as 'mistakes'... shame on you.

Here we have a case of people making up a hadeeth, and then making it bold, italics and underlining it, and then plastering it all over the internet world, deliberately - people who consider themselves professional enough to translate and author legal works. And after having been informed of their deliberate error, they persist on the distortion of Sharia, and you persist on defending them.

Do we need more proof that Sharia is directly under attack from your likes? Or that you are the 'jews of the ummah' distorting the texts? Shame on the lot of you.

LOL, gang culture? Now we are considered to have a "Gang" mentality because we defend a group of publishers. First of all gangs don't write books and spend time translating scholary works so I can't see the comparison or anology your tryin to give here.

Look mate, your write is so incoherent and spelling is so terrible I cannot make out half of what you are trying to say. Be brief and to the point in whatever you want to say. People don't have the time read paragraphs over paragraphs that have NOTHING to do with the original question asked.

I called this gang culture on your part because you come to the defence of each other regardless it be on truth or falsehood.

Now, for the 10th time, do you have ANYTHING *sensible* to say about this:

Their entire document on 'intentionally targeting women and children' was a shame. In the entire document they could not find a single text to justify the targeting of women and children in retribution, so they got hold of a Prophetic hadeeth where the companions asked the Prophet "should we not take their women and children is captives?" and they took the liberty to translate it as: "so shall we not kill them" (bold, italics and underline is all theirs).

And after having been corrected for over several years, they still show no remorse.

Someone tell me, why can't they now be called the yahood of the Ummah as they would like to call others? Why aren't they the zanadiqa for their rape of Sharia?

I don't want another rap which I cannot understand. Speak English, plz.

AZ is harsh but he has a valid point, altho i tend to also agree with al-Athari

harsh?

How would you have reacted to someone who deliberately distorted the texts to prove his point and remains adamant on his distortion? How would you have reacted if you had an ounce of gheera - REAL concern for the Sharia, and not just a hype which these Spice Girls online Jihadis are engulfed with?

[hussain]

Man... if these guys were to rewrite the entire Quran for you, you would still consider them as 'mistakes'

Incorrect - and something of an exaggeration based upon an assumption you have made is it not?

Here we have a case of people making up a hadeeth, and then making it bold, italics and underlining it, and then plastering it all over the internet world, deliberately

As far as I understand it, the criticisms of these brothers relate to one error in one work. There is then a generalization from this one mistake in one work to condemn everything they have done and are doing.

No one seems to have answered the simple question posed: do you and others then condemn everything they have done and are doing, or do you agree that they have done some good work?

Also, if you do condemn them generally, is that on the basis that there has been no public admission, by them, of what you and others affirm is their error in one work of theirs that you have refereed to?


And after having been informed of their deliberate error, they persist on the distortion of Sharia,

"Deliberate"? Is that not an assumption you are making? How do you know it is "deliberate"?

Perhaps it is just an error arising from lack of knowledge? Perhaps they sincerely believe it is not an error and thus there is no "deliberate distortion"?

Has anyone other than you and some brothers here on this forum pointed out this error to them, and has anyone - any of the authors of the works they have translated, for instance - criticized them or declared that they have made errors, deliberate or otherwise?

and you persist on defending them.

Because I am striving to be fair, because I am not rushing to judge them (they are after all my brothers), because I am for the moment giving them "the benefit of the doubt" and thus not calling them names or assigning them to any category, and because I do believe they have done much good work, and that applies even if there is an error in one of their works.

Is this wrong? Is this something that I a Muslim should not do?

[Yasir]

There is then a generalization from this one mistake in one work to condemn everything they have done and are doing.So despite knowing that in this case, a narration was concocted, made bold, italicised, underlined AND attributed to the Companions, and insisted upon; you have problems understanding why people aren’t being encouraged from taking other aspects of their religion from such people?

Given that they are making such calculated ‘mistakes’, should they really be taking up responsible positions of translating legal texts?وقال شيخ الإسلام ابن تيميَّة ـ رحمه الله ـ : ولا يحل لأحد أن يتكلَّم في الدين بلا علم ولا يعين من تكلَّم في الدين بلا علم ،أو أدخل في الدين ما ليس منه
مجموع الفتاوى 22/240A valuable read: http://www.saaid.net/Doat/khabab/12.htm

[Abu Ma'mar]

What about the kids in these cafe's and the passers by? And what of those who are NOT called up by the Army?

I didnt say cafe did i?

I said Night club. Any kids going to be in a nightclub?


As for those not called up then that makes no difference what so ever.

If you are in your country and you are fighting enemy soldiers that have occupied your land and that enemy has 200 soldiers a few miles away that will be called at any time to kill you and by law must serve time in an army to kill you, are they legit targets or not? of course they are.

So there is no difference at all with nightclubs and such, and if they hit the nightclub and kill like 40 people walking around at that time of night then i would say that was a very efficient hit!


But im strongly against these kind of acts as they take the focus of the oppression that is being done to the philistini people at the hands of the jews.

[Hamza]

How would you have reacted to someone who deliberately distorted the texts to prove his point and remains adamant on his distortion? How would you have reacted if you had an ounce of gheera - REAL concern for the Sharia, and not just a hype which these Spice Girls online Jihadis are engulfed with?

The problem is that when we read the works like translations of AbdAllah Azzam etc you have to agree its good work and its in short supply.

Cos most websites/translators dont want that type of heat, so credit where its due - no? I can say i dislike the document in question and strongly disagree with its message. Is that not sufficient or do we all need to label them as "jews of the ummah" before we are accepted upon the "middle path"?

I do agree that its strange they persist with this but thats for them to answer.

[hussain]

So despite knowing that in this case, a narration was concocted, made bold, italicised, underlined AND attributed to the Companions, and insisted upon; you have problems understanding why people aren’t being encouraged from taking other aspects of their religion from such people?

You affirm it was "concocted" - that is, deliberate falsification. I am just saying that such a public affirmation of their "guilt" seems to me to be an assumption, and that in this matter of intention I prefer to, for the moment, give them the benefit of the doubt, and that my own assumption is that if there is an error or mistake then it may be a "genuine mistake" (of the kind we are all prone to make from time to time) and the result of some lack of knowledge or understanding, with the person who wrote it doing so because of a sincere belief that it was correct.

I have problems understanding why some Muslims confidently and repeatedly and in public affirm that they "know" there has been some deliberate falsification of texts when all there may have been - it seems to me - is one error or one mistake in one book out of the many, many books that have been produced by these brothers over a period of many years, with no one (so far as I am aware) accusing these brothers of similar errors or mistakes in these other works.

[Saifur Rahman Al Afghani]

I don't want another rap which I cannot understand. Speak English, plz.
Haha! :D

Abuz Zubayr, they quoted in their book: "The Clarification Regarding Intentionally Targetting Women and Children", the following Hadith:

And this is further clarified by the Hadīth narrated by ‘Imrān ibn Husayn (ra), “(The tribe of) Thaqīf were allies of Banū ‘Uqayl – and Thaqīf had taken two men from amongst the Companions of the Messenger ملسو هيلع للها ىلص as prisoners. So the Companions captured a man from Banū ‘Uqayl, and they captured she-camels along with him. So the Messenger ملسو هيلع للها ىلص came to him while he was tied (in ropes), and he said, “O Muhammad!”- So the Messenger ملسو هيلع للها ىلص came near him and asked, “What is your matter?” He replied, “For what reason have you taken [i.e. captured] me and the one proceeding the pilgrims [i.e. the she-camels]?! So the Messenger يلع للها ىلصملسو ه replied, “I took you because of your (tribe’s) allies’ – Thaqīf’s - crime.”

So from the actions of the Prophet ملسو هيلع للها ىلص, we can see the following points being derived:

1. A tribe from the kuffār captured two Muslims.
2. The Companions, in return, captured a man who was from an allied tribe of the capturers.
3. The Prophet ملسو هيلع للها ىلص said, “I took you because of your (tribe’s) allies’ – Thaqīf’s - crime.”
4. It is obvious that the kāfir man was guilty of no crime himself.
5. Nor was there any action of guilt from the tribe to which he belonged, Banū ‘Uqayl.
6. The crime was of Banū Thaqīf- those who were the allies of the tribe to whom the man belonged.

Are they accusing the Prophet of punishing an innocent person? And what is the Sharh of this Hadith? How did the Mufasireen explain it? And also, is it permissible to punish innocent people for the crimes of others? Jazakallaah khayr,

Wasalaamu Alaykom Warahmatullaah,

[Salsabil]

These brothers have done great work mashaAllah, except for their mistakes obviously, may Allah reward them in both worlds.

[Abuz Zubair]

As far as I understand it, the criticisms of these brothers relate to one error in one work. There is then a generalization from this one mistake in one work to condemn everything they have done and are doing.

Yes, because if a cook is NOT a cook and still cooking for people and killing them, he must be stopped. If a person is NOT a doctor and still treating the people, he must be sent behind bars. What is more important to you? Your life or your deen?

The Salaf used to say of people in their times that some people should be locked up for giving fatwas whilst they are not capable of doing so.

These idiotic kids are not only translating, but writing legal documents for God's sake! What on earth do you think the Sharia is? Can anyone just put on his Sharia hat and do it? Don't you get it when I say that it is you guys have have extremely devalued the sharia that it has become free for all?

This mistake was the most dangerous consequence of all of this. In fact, this was of a different level altogether! This is pure distortion, and moreover, persisting on it!

If you knew of a doctor who sexually abused one of his patients, would you advise people to go to him saying: 'he just made a mistake once!'? How about if he isn't even a doctor to begin with?!

Absolutely ridiculous. People have more concern for their 'friends' than for sharia!

Amazing how this clear cut distortion is taken lightly when its by your own friends.

No one seems to have answered the simple question posed: do you and others then condemn everything they have done and are doing, or do you agree that they have done some good work?

This isn't the point. No one has the time to read through their material and hunt for mistakes. Their English is so poor you cannot even tell what they're on about. But it would be astonishing for a Muslims to have known treachery from tibyan towards of Sharia, and continue to recommend it to people.

Also, if you do condemn them generally, is that on the basis that there has been no public admission, by them, of what you and others affirm is their error in one work of theirs that you have refereed to?

Not only that, but also, I do not think they have a single kid amongst them who has studied any shara'i science altogether. If they were to go to any o the mashaykh and show them their works, I am sure their mashaykh themselves would discourage them from writing. And hence, they never feel the need to have their works supervised by absolutely anyone. They are all basically DIY Mujtahid making a Frankenstein out of Sharia.

"Deliberate"? Is that not an assumption you are making? How do you know it is "deliberate"?

If years go by after them having been informed of this possible unintentional error, it definitely turns into a deliberate one.

Perhaps it is just an error arising from lack of knowledge

Lack of knowledge?!?! Of the Arabic language?! Should they even be writing a legal document on people's lives, wealth and honour with such a low level of the knowledge of the Arabic language?!?! Are you serious?!

Has anyone other than you and some brothers here on this forum pointed out this error to them, and has anyone - any of the authors of the works they have translated, for instance - criticized them or declared that they have made errors, deliberate or otherwise?


Over and over and over and over... I met one of the brothers with them and told him specifically about this AND HE AGREED! They have visited this forum quite a few times over the past several years to read by criticisms. People who were former translators for them PM'ed me about this. Other forum members from tibyan also conveyed the message...

It has been done and dusted over and over, and you aren't the first person raising these points, dear brother.

And this is what makes these people akin to zanadiqa, by persisting in distorting the texts, knowingly.

Because I am striving to be fair, because I am not rushing to judge them

I appreciate that you are trying to be fair. But please do take note that this isn't the first thread in which I have spoken against tibyan. This topic keeps coming up every now and then and I get to repeat myself over and over.

And if people are being drawn into reading tibyan literature, perhaps we should do more to expose these people. Who knows, with hearts like these, who really is behind tibyan?

[Abuz Zubair]

The problem is that when we read the works like translations of AbdAllah Azzam etc you have to agree its good work and its in short supply.


Have you ever wondered what they feel about Abdullah Azzam in their private circles? Abdullah Azzam is nothing but a selling point for these people. They cannot produce a single person who talked as much sense as him. Bro Abu Sabaya has done many translation of his words... For me, personally, it was Abdullah Azzam's words that made me see through the agenda of these other people who used AA as a selling point to bring us to something else.

To them, AA is just an ikhwani guilty of kufr and shirk due to his views on voting and entering the parliament.

I do agree that its strange they persist with this but thats for them to answer.

And for you to answer by encouraging people to read their material, despite of knowing their distortion tactics.

[Brother_Mujahid]

For me, personally, it was Abdullah Azzam's words that made me see through the agenda of these other people who used AA as a selling point to bring us to something else.

To them, AA is just an ikhwani guilty of kufr and shirk due to his views on voting and entering the parliament.

You speak of something that I have personally witnessed first hand. Just as it was noted in the past that the followers of Rab'i al-Madkhali publicly praise bin Baz and bin Uthaymin and then privately accuse them of being weak in manhaj or being a "play thing" of the "Suroriyyah," so I have witnessed those who will pay public lip service to Sh. Abdullah Azzam, but privately accuse him of a weak manhaj for his stance on voting and other issues.

[hussain]

I met one of the brothers with them and told him specifically about this AND HE AGREED! They have visited this forum quite a few times over the past several years to read by criticisms. People who were former translators for them PM'ed me about this. Other forum members from tibyan also conveyed the message...

JazaakAllah khair Akhi for your reply and this interesting information. I appreciate and can see and understand where your anger in this matter - if anger it is - is coming from: love of the Deen, fear of Allah azza wa jal, and desire to refute those who you sincerely believe seem careless or unconcerned about misinterpreting or who, you also sincerely believe, maybe are distorting our Deen.

Who knows, with hearts like these, who really is behind tibyan?

See, this is the kind of thing I have a problem with, perhaps wrongly and perhaps rather naively. I mean jumping to conclusions and insinuating that perhaps there's something more worrying behind some brothers maybe making mistakes and persisting in their error and (perhaps) just being stubborn.

But maybe enough has been said already about this matter?

[Muntasir]

Someone asked them about this on their blog and this was their reply




Wa ‘Alaykum As-Salaam Wa Rahmatullaahi Wa Barakaatuh

Jazaak Allaah Khayran for the comment.

The “mistranslation” that they use to say that we “intentionally distort texts” was taken by the brother who compiled the book from the translation of that Hadith available in footnoted commentary in Muhsin Khan’s translation of the Qur’aan, as well as from the explanation of that particular Hadith by Abu Qataadah in his Fatwaa about killing the families of the murtaddeen in order to stop the killing of the Muslim families during the Algerian Jihaad. This Fatwaa is available in the book. If the translation of that Hadith by Muhsin Khaan and Shaykh Abu Qataadah’s understanding of it are both wrong, we have no problem taking it back.

Nevertheless, the book is 109 pages long, and there is more evidence and stronger evidences on the issue at hand than just that one Hadith. What we have seen is people wanting to nit-pick at the book without refuting the actual evidences and the multidude of opinions within it. So, if people want to refute our translation, the rest of the points need to be refuted along with the translation.

One or two other issues with translation were brought to our attention and we clarified their accuracy where we were sure of their accuracy. At any time, people are free to point out any mistakes they find in the other translations as well, so that we may clarify or correct them, otherwise this is an injustice to us and to the readers, just as it is an injustice and a lie to say that we intentionally distort and mistranslate things in order to put forward a certain view point. And if, from the 100+ translations we have done they can only point to that one thing, or even a handful of things as opposed to constant and consistent glaring translation errors for which there is no excuse, then those with a sound mind will be able to judge that this is not enough to judge our work as not credible.

And Allaah is the Source of strength.

So are people going to start accusing Muhsin Khan the translator of the Quran and Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim of intentionally misleading people also? Haha.

Those brothers at Tibyan get so many hasanaat from everyone backbiting them here and accusing them of this and that - keep it up! It's a shame they won't return the favor though.

[Naseer08]

Abu Zubair if you respect Shaykh Abdullah Azzam so much as you claim, maybe you should listen to this lecture.

http://www.fileflyer.com/view/P2lICAC

The Shaykh rahimullah explains the hukm of ruling by other than Allahs law.

After considering the Shayksh explaination and your opinion is it fair to say you consider him also Rebel, Takfiri, Dog of Jahhanam?

Last I feel there's a need to advise you, if you happen to disagree with someone you shouldn't use insults and derogatory comments. No matter how strongly you disagree.

I agree with you that women and children shouldn't be targetted under any circumstances.

The brothers at Tibyaan though aren't fabricating theiw own Islamic opinion. Theres a few late scholars who considered it permissible to kill women and children in retaliation, one of them being the late Shaykh Yusuf Al Uyeeri (Author of constants of Jihad)

As much as you disagree, the message of the publication isn't due to Tibyaan lack of integrity or fabrications. Rather it's them following a few scholars who allow targeting women and children.

It's one thing to say their wrong, most everyone here will agree with you. But it's another thing to start calling them liars, fabricators, zindiqs, and say they (tibyaan) are twisting hadith.

[Tawheedist]

May Allah reward you for the balanced words brother Naseer08. The opinion they take is definitely a minority opinion, but it was taken by some prominent scholars like Muhammad Ibn Saalih Al-Uthaymeen n Umar Abdur-Rahmaan n Hamood Al-Shuyabi, based on the gaenerality of the verses on retaliation in the Quran. If the scholar makes Ijtihaad and is right, he has two rewards, and if he is wrong, he has one reward.

[AbuUsama]

May Allah(swt) reward both of you brothers Tawheedist and Naseer08 as you said that was what they follow because they have evidence for their claim alhamdulillah but these narrow minded people do not understand anything.

[Abuz Zubair]

I mean jumping to conclusions and insinuating that perhaps there's something more worrying behind some brothers maybe making mistakes and persisting in their error and (perhaps) just being stubborn.

I am not jumping to conclusions. I am asking, and I have every basis to ask who is exactly behind them. For what sort of a Jihadi-Salafi Muslim would stoop down to the level of distortion of legal texts? Surely, only zanadiqa and hypocrites do this sort of stuff. Moreover, we know by experience that the loudest and the most zealous of all these jihadis happen to be spies. A quarter of Abu Qatada's congregation were probably spies. Baker Street was known for that, and hence, Abu Qatada's famous fiery lecture against the munafiqin. It didn't help him much since he got betrayed by one of his zealous students who turned out to be an MI5 agent. These guys are infested with such people. So I have every right to question who is behind it.

The “mistranslation” that they use to say that we “intentionally distort texts” was taken by the brother who compiled the book from the translation of that Hadith available in footnoted commentary in Muhsin Khan’s translation of the Qur’aan

First of all, here we have these wretched youngsters writing a legal paper defending a batil fiqhi ruling, for which it is assumed that they have enough knowledge of the Arabic language so as NOT to rely on secondary sources, such as The Noble Quran translation! If you know Arabic good enough to be able to write a research paper, why bother looking at the Noble Quran translation?!

Secondly, please give us the exact reference, under which Sura and which verse on which page does Muhsin Khan mention this hadeeth with the translation you have used? I would like them to substantiate their accusation against M. Khan.

Thirdly, EVEN IF this is how M. Khan translated it, he is blatantly wrong and he has made a blunder, and this isn't exactly the first translation blunder to exist in the English Noble Quran - if it even exists!. However, if the level of these guys' Arabic was really of a standard (after all they are writing a legal paper), they should have noticed this error and not relied on it as they did. But the reality is that these kids were too big for their boots to write the nonsense they wrote.

But I have a very strong feeling that they are lying upon M. Khan, until they actually show us WHERE he mistranslates the hadeeth as he does.

as well as from the explanation of that particular Hadith by Abu Qataadah in his Fatwaa about killing the families of the murtaddeen in order to stop the killing of the Muslim families during the Algerian Jihaad

THIS IS A LIE against Abu Qatada!

Firstly, his fatwa was completely in Arabic, so there was NOT any need to explain away the wording فنصيبهم.

Secondly, NO WHERE in his fatwa did he explain the wording فنصيبهم (so we take them as captives) as فنقتلهم (so we kill them).

Thirdly, he only used this hadeeth to suggest that we can attack the women and children, and take them as captives, NOT KILL THEM, in order to prevent the kuffar from killing our women and children.

These are the words of Abu Qatada that Tibyan deliberately chopped up and decided NOT to quote, because it would not support their translation: 'so we kill them':

وقد رواه البخارى فى صحيحه بألفاظ مقاربه ففى الحديث جواز اتخاذ الذرية والنساء وسيله ضغط على المشركين لتوهين أمرهم وتفريق جمعهم

The tibyan document quotes the hadeeth and chops the rest of AQ's quote off. But if you continue reading the quote, AQ says:

"al-Bukhari also narrated it in his Sahih with similar words. This hadeeth suggests the permissibility of taking the women and children as captives in order to put pressure on the mushrikin, humiliate and to disunite their ranks"

But when they deliberately lie upon the Prophet - SallAllahu 'alayhi wa-sallam, lying upon M Khan and their own beloved Shaykh Abu Qatada is NOT a big deal at all!

The rest of you masakin don't even know Arabic to tell for yourselves if something so obvious as that can be mistranslated or not. You've simply given your trust to people who have ruined their own hereafter, in hope that they will cater for yours.

This Fatwaa is available in the book

Not the full fatwa... only a cut and paste of it, because the full fatwa CLEARLY states the understanding of Abu Qatada of this hadeeth. Tibyan couldn't mention the full thing because it wouldn't fit well with 'So we kill them' distortion. Here is the full fatwa:

تبين لنا فى الباب السابق جواز قتل الذرية والنساء توصلا لقتل الكفار المقاتلين فهل يجوز قتل الذرية والنساء توصلا لإحياء المسلم ودفعا لهتك عرض المسلمة من المعلوم شرعا أن إحياء المسلم أعظم شانا من قتل الكافر فدفع المفاسد وإبطالها خير من جلب المنافع وقتل المسلم مفسده عظيمه وأما قتل الكافر فمصلحه فإذا تدافعت مصلحه قتل اسارى الكفار مع مصلحه فدائهم باسارى المسلمين وجب على المسلمين فداء الاسارى وذلك بإطلاق اسارى الكفار إذا تبين لنا هذا وعلمنا سابقا جواز قتل الذرية والنساء توصلا لقتل الرجال المقاتلة فان من باب أولى جواز قتل هذه الذرية وقتل النساء توصلا لمنع قتل المسلمين بل المجاهدين وهتك أعراض المسلمات فحقيقة المسالة أننا ان لم نستطع منع المرتدين من قتل اسارى المسلمين من مدنيين وغيرهم إلا بتهديد هؤلاء المرتدين بقتل نسائهم وأبنائهم وهو جائز إن لم يكن واجبا وكذلك إن لم نستطع منع المرتدين من انتهاك أعراض المسلمين والتلاعب بالنساء إلا تهديدهم بقتل ذريتهم ونسائهم فهو جائز ولا شك إن لم يكن واجبا إذ أن مصلحه أحياء المسلمين وحفظ أعراضهم اشد واهم من التوصل الى قتل المرتدين بتترسهم بنسائهم وأبنائهم وهى الحالة التى أجاز فيها الشرع قتل الذرية والنساء نصا كما تقدم فى حديث الصعب بن جثامه وقد جاء فى الحديث ـ كما سياتى ـ جواز الهجوم على الذرية والنساء حتى يتخذل الكفار ويتشتت أمرهم فتتوسع دائرة المعركة فتسهل هزيمتهم وذلك بجزعهم على أبنائهم ونسائهم وبتفريقهم من اجل حمايتهم ...
فقد روى الإمام البخارى فى صحيحه فى قصه الجاسوس الخزاعى الذى أرسله ليكتشف له شان قريش وهو قادم للعمرة وذلك فى قصه الحديبية واخبره أن الاحابيش جمعت له حلفائها من المقيمين حول مكة لقتاله هو وصحبه إن أصر على دخول مكة لزيارة البيت فاستشار رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أصحابه قائلا : اشيروا على , أترون أن نميل على ذرارى هؤلاء الذين أعانوهم فنصيبهم فان قعدوا قعدوا موتورين محروبين وان لم يجيئوا تكن عنقا قطعها الله أم ترون أن نؤم البيت فمن صدنا عنه قاتلناه ؟ انتهى هنا لفظ عبد الرزاق فى مصنفه .وقد رواه البخارى فى صحيحه بألفاظ مقاربه ففى الحديث جواز اتخاذ الذرية والنساء وسيله ضغط على المشركين لتوهين أمرهم وتفريق جمعهم فان النبى صلى الله عليه وسلم أراد الهجوم على النساء والذرية حتى يفرق الحلفاء من حول قريش بهذا يتبين أن ما فعلته الجماعة الاسلاميه المسلحة من تهديد ذريه ونساء المرتدين بالقتل من اجل تخفيف وطأتهم على النساء المساجين والإخوان هو عمل شرعى لا شبه فيه

If the translation of that Hadith by Muhsin Khaan and Shaykh Abu Qataadah’s understanding of it are both wrong, we have no problem taking it back.

You are liars. You have surely lied upon Abu Qatada, and are most probably lying upon M. Khan. Otherwise, show us where he mistranslates.

Nevertheless, the book is 109 pages long, and there is more evidence and stronger evidences on the issue at hand than just that one Hadith

But you still felt the need to take that one distortion of text and make it bold, italics and underlined and plaster it all over the internet! Right!

The bottom line is that in those 109 pages trash you couldn't bring ONE Legal text, from the Quran and the Sunnah, and NOT A SINGLE statement of a SINGLE classical scholar from ANY of the four madhabs, to support your opinion! So you had to invent a lie upon the Prophet. And now, to defend that lie, you have to invent more lies on M. Khan and Abu Qatada himself. A lie leads to ten lies.

So, if people want to refute our translation, the rest of the points need to be refuted along with the translation.

They have been refuted over and over and over on these forums. I just don't think your piece of trash is worth writing a whole refutation of. And whoever the author of that shameful document is, he is more than welcome to come here, register and defend his evil deeds in public. And as with everyone else, he would be given all the freedoms to fight for his case.

Abu Zubair if you respect Shaykh Abdullah Azzam so much as you claim, maybe you should listen to this lecture.

Bro... no need to give me any links... I have probably memorised all his lectures!

I know all his views about hakimiyya etc and I agree with him 100%. What makes you think that I would consider him a rebel or a takfiri or whatever? Unless you think I am some sort of a madkhali!

In fact, it is YOU, dear brother, who should listen to his lectures and read his writings on hakimiyya and entering the parliament etc, and then go back and question your figureheads WHY on earth Abdullah Azzam is not considered a mushrik!

It is not me who disparages Abdullah Azzam in private. It is you guys.

The brothers at Tibyaan though aren't fabricating theiw own Islamic opinion. Theres a few late scholars who considered it permissible to kill women and children in retaliation, one of them being the late Shaykh Yusuf Al Uyeeri (Author of constants of Jihad)

He is just a Talib al-'Ilm like many other talabat al-ilm in Saudi and elsewhere. I am not saying this in order to put him down. But when speaking about fiqh, etc... and quoting opinions, you need to know who is who. You need to know people's levels.

It's one thing to say their wrong, most everyone here will agree with you. But it's another thing to start calling them liars, fabricators, zindiqs, and say they (tibyaan) are twisting hadith.

Have the spine in yourself to call a distortion 'a distortion', especially if it is to do with the Quran and Sunnah, and especially if those guilty are your friends.

The opinion they take is definitely a minority opinion, but it was taken by some prominent scholars like Muhammad Ibn Saalih Al-Uthaymeen n Umar Abdur-Rahmaan n Hamood Al-Shuyabi, based on the gaenerality of the verses on retaliation in the Quran

Ibn Uthaymin is the only one who expressed this opinion in one of his sittings. Otherwise, this is NOT what Humud al-Shuaybi believed and certainly not what Umar Abd al-Rahman believed. You don't have anyone in this except Sh Ibn Uthaymin.

Moreover, it is a matter of consensus and hence a scholar differing with consensus later on is ignored and not accepted.

I wouldn't even consider it a minority opinion, because this was just a mistake on part of Ibn Uthaymin. If he had a handful of scholars agreeing with him, then perhaps it could be said that it is a minority opinion. But him being isolated in this, certainly does not make this opinion a minority, and certainly does not make this difference an acceptable one.

You would find a lot larger number of scholars from the salaf who believed mut'a was halal, or wine was halal, or riba was halal, or musical instruments are halal, or anal intercourse is halal. But the scholars warned against following such odd opinions, even though we had some salaf you held those opinions. The scholars considered it zandaqa to follow such shadh opinions.

This is why you guys have a lot in common with the secularists:

1) you both follow shaadh opinions

2) you both override legal texts for maslaha

No wonder many of your figureheads dump Islamism when they've had enough and become secularist sell outs... they do change sides, but essentially, they remain the same.

[Abu Abdur-Rahman]

jazak Allah khairun akhie, do you have a full translation of the fatwa you posted

also when you said Sh Yusuf was only talib ul ilm could you tell us if that is your own opinion or that of other ulema.

[Abuz Zubair]

Bro Abu Abdur-Rahman,

Why don't you find out yourself instead of relying on other people. I will tell you one thing, someone else will tell you something else. At the end, you would only believe the one you trust.

Yusuf al-'Uyayri was never known as a scholar of any kind. He is just one of the strong tullab al-'ilm. And there are many tullab al-'ilm in Saudi who happen to be from the closest students of the greatest of mashaykh. And they can easily be promoted as mashaykh, for they have a lot of knowledge... but they still remain talabat al-'ilm.

The fraud that's being done by these people with their agendas is to basically promote unknown and obscure graduates from this or that university as 'Shaykh fulan b. fulan'. The gullible and zealous younger audience in the West would fall for anything.

Again, this isn't necessarily a matter of putting people down. But only drawing attention to the fact that those who have been bigged up by certain ppl might not be as big as they were made out to be.

[Hamza]

Yusuf al-'Uyayri was never known as a scholar of any kind.

I suggest the brothers do ask other people like Anwar Aulaki etc. Although Anwar himself is not considered a scholar. Personally im tired of everyone who is active being labelled:

"not a scholar"...

So where are the scholars? At the HSBC imanah? What a joke.

[AbuUsama]

Bro Abu Abdur-Rahman,

Why don't you find out yourself instead of relying on other people. I will tell you one thing, someone else will tell you something else. At the end, you would only believe the one you trust.

Yusuf al-'Uyayri was never known as a scholar of any kind. He is just one of the strong tullab al-'ilm. And there are many tullab al-'ilm in Saudi who happen to be from the closest students of the greatest of mashaykh. And they can easily be promoted as mashaykh, for they have a lot of knowledge... but they still remain talabat al-'ilm.

The fraud that's being done by these people with their agendas is to basically promote unknown and obscure graduates from this or that university as 'Shaykh fulan b. fulan'. The gullible and zealous younger audience in the West would fall for anything.

Again, this isn't necessarily a matter of putting people down. But only drawing attention to the fact that those who have been bigged up by certain ppl might not be as big as they were made out to be.

Why are you hitting Sheykh Yusuf al-'Uyayri (rahimullah) indirectly ?


Yusuf al-'Uyayri was never known as a scholar of any kind.,

If he(rahimullah) was with the king (Alhamdulillah Allah saved him) you people would have called him THE SCHOLAR OF THE SCHOLAR. This shows how much you people love taghoot.
May Allah(swt) save us from such fithna

[Magoo]

i dont think abuz zubair attempted any attack on Yusuf Al Uyeyri (Rahimullah), he just said he was a talib ul ilm, which is not an easy title to attain in it self

stick to the topic and respond the questions asked by abu zubair as i would be interested to see you prove that your position is correct

i still dont understand why the brothers at Tibyan (allah reward them for their good work) havent retracted a clear mistake on their part

[anam]

A quarter of Abu Qatada's congregation were probably spies. Baker Street was known for that, and hence, Abu Qatada's famous fiery lecture against the munafiqin. It didn't help him much since he got betrayed by one of his zealous students who turned out to be an MI5 agent. These guys are infested with such people. So I have every right to question who is behind it.

Being betrayed or snitched on isn't a fault of Abu Qatada's or any of the rest of the brothers that use to attend baker street....many were mujahideen...real brothers working and caring for the ummah or just simply turning up for prayer ...being a Muslim ESPEACIALY a teacher would definetly not help having m15 agents as students or friends as we have seen Muslims being arrested for their speech or thoughts!
So i dont understand why degrade the brothers by saying 'these guys' as if they were a liability or a problem for the western educated Muslims or moderate scholors from the arab lands...
Of course the employes of the spies worry about Muslims who apply the Quraan and want to live and be judged by their creator ...why would they spy on some Muslim talking to kuffar about jesus or learning how to do wudu?

apart from that you have all the right in the world to know who is behind what ..not unless someone is avoiding detection by these wicked authorities and is fearing what happened to Abu Qatada for example then its not neccersary ...

fiery lectures will be missed ...jumu'ah has never been the same...and bad apples will always remain..

[Hamza]

Its like Malcolm X used to say, We would be stupid to think our enemies don't sit amongst us. Why would the spies sit among spubers of barelvis? LOL.

[Abuz Zubair]

I wasn't discussing whose fault it was that they have so many spies amongst them. I was stating a fact. A fact I can use as a basis to suspect who is really running Tibyan, especially after the top brothers behind it are now behind bars.

[Abuz Zubair]

Anyway, the thread shouldn't be steered away from the topic.

I have presented my case against them as it is. Now it is for them or their sympathisers to give an explanation, substantiate their claims, or admit that they distorted the sacred texts.

[anam]

when you dont behave in rome as the romans and you have a strong faith and followers and are working against the evil of rome in what it does in it's own home as well as abroad then its obvious there will be panic and hatred from amongst the enemies...falsehood is less attractive than the truth and many representers of the truth will be oppressed by the more powerfull opponent..and many of our ulema have been put behind bars....not by kuffar but by our own brothers in faith!

[anam]

as well as from the explanation of that particular Hadith by Abu Qataadah in his Fatwaa about killing the families of the murtaddeen in order to stop the killing of the Muslim families during the Algerian Jihaad ''

THIS IS A LIE against Abu Qatada!

Subhan Allaah

I always knew that some twisting was done to his original fatwah or was misunderstood..

it's affect was tremendous.. it split many Muslims who still find the need to refute Abu Qatada all these many years later all the while he's no longer around ..we all know this too well..

and it has helped the kuffar in demonising Islaam too:
''In July 2001, Abu Hamza sought to rebut claims that he had abandoned violent means in advancing the cause. Such claims had been raised in an article in the London based Arabic daily Al-Quds Al-Arabi newspaper by Abd Al-Hakim Diyab, an Egyptian living in London, who called upon the Egyptian authorities "to avoid putting all London fundamentalists in one basket." Diyab presented Abu Hamza as an example of an Islamist who had relinquished violence, citing Abu Hamza's call in 1997 not to obey the fatwa issued by another London fundamentalist, the Palestinian-Jordanian Abu Qatada who had called upon Muslims to kill the wives and children of Egyptian police and army officers as part of the struggle in Arab countries''

im sure on a site with abu qatada's material there is a video lecture called khilafah where the last 30 minutes is an argument all about this fatwah ..i will try and find the site...

[anam]

http://www.abokatada.110mb.com/mariat/marii.htm should be here<

also check what Abu Hamza sais in a khutba about his disagrement on this ruling...

http://www.geocities.com/sh4ri4h/khutbas.htm go to lecture ''pharoas and fatwa of killing women and children''

[anam]

The talk was good although Abu Hamza is of the view that Abu Qattada meant or said to kill and not capture ....?

He also said [back then] that the fatwah is 6 years old and everyone involved should repent...listen from 16 mins.....infact he asked Abu Qatada to repent from it [listen from 20 mins]he sounds quite harsh but fair..i dont think he is against Abu Qatada just those who exploit it [ khawrij and gia in algeria after they started acting on this fatwah]as he mentioned himself saying he has written books and done tapes about this..and as far as i knew [which wasn't much back then] they were good brothers towards eachother and i heard Abu Hamza kinda studied under Abu Qatada...anyhow the shariah is more beloved and this must manifest lest it affect our emaan ..we must also be just and concude at the truth and not favour personalities as it is a path to shirk..we only want the truth whatever it may be...make sure everyone listens to the talk by Abu Hamza!

let the thread return back to it's purpose ...

[thefitrah]

To be honest if find it just disgustingly astonishing that brothers can somehow find it within themselves to continously try to defend the blatant, obstinate adulteration of text on grounds that the brothers at tibyan may possibly have lack of knowledge, or be stubborn, or convinced as to the correctness of the opinion.

Whatever happenned to the so called 'defenders of sharia' mentality so much associated with the like of you individuals. It seems you give primacy to defending your friends over Allahs deen.

I have never heard such hogwash. If someone, after having been advised repeatedly, refuses to correct their mistake-especially as it relates to the serious matter of Shariah, we should be obliged to denounce and boycott them at the drop of a hat-quicker than a madkhali!

[y-mughal]

The talk was good although Abu Hamza is of the view that Abu Qattada meant or said to kill and not capture ....?

He also said [back then] that the fatwah is 6 years old and everyone involved should repent...listen from 16 mins.....infact he asked Abu Qatada to repent from it [listen from 20 mins]he sounds quite harsh but fair

When the original fatawa was drawn up Abu Hamza (may Allah hasten his release) was present and agreed to it and then suddenly in 2001 he went against it.

[Muntasir]

To be honest if find it just disgustingly astonishing that brothers can somehow find it within themselves to continously try to defend the blatant, obstinate adulteration of text on grounds that the brothers at tibyan may possibly have lack of knowledge, or be stubborn, or convinced as to the correctness of the opinion.

Whatever happenned to the so called 'defenders of sharia' mentality so much associated with the like of you individuals. It seems you give primacy to defending your friends over Allahs deen.

I have never heard such hogwash. If someone, after having been advised repeatedly, refuses to correct their mistake-especially as it relates to the serious matter of Shariah, we should be obliged to denounce and boycott them at the drop of a hat-quicker than a madkhali!


One instance is not a proof of anything nor can you prove the intent was to distort anything. They clarified where they got the translation from and said if it is wrong we take it back. As shown in the Abu Hamzah audio Abu Qatadah's opinion was that they are to be killed and not captured, and if people want to find the Hadith translation by Muhsin Khan let them go and look it up themselves. For real and even if they are wrong no one can dare pick apart the hearts and say the intention was this or that, because even if that hadith was thrown out of the book, there are at least 6 or 7 other Fataawah in it from other notables not least of all Sheykh Uthaymeen, supporting that opinion you are accusing them of going out of their way to prove.

I feel really bad for people who feel so desperate that they go to the level of acting like they have knowledge behind people's intentions. Sick sick sick.

And about who is running it now, well I'm a member on the forum and it's the same brother who ran it back when some of the brothers who are now in jail -including the one who compiled this particular release- were with Tibyan. And anyone on that forum can speak about his knowledge and his good manners and his justice towards disputed opinions, as well the scholars he studied with and is still in contact with. I make Allah a witness over that and I think the real fools are those who know this but choose to stay silent, or people who were with Tibyan and know the truth and the sincerity of those brothers and might even had/have a personal relationship with them and still sit by and let them be slandered in this way. Allah is behind those who defend their brothers, so woe to you woe to you woe to you.

[hussain]

To be honest if find it just disgustingly astonishing that brothers can somehow find it within themselves to continously try to defend the blatant, obstinate adulteration of text on grounds that the brothers at tibyan may possibly have lack of knowledge, or be stubborn, or convinced as to the correctness of the opinion..... If someone, after having been advised repeatedly, refuses to correct their mistake-especially as it relates to the serious matter of Shariah, we should be obliged to denounce and boycott them

I think you have maybe missed the two main points of what I was trying to explain, which are that:

(1) even if someone is "advised repeatedly" about making a mistake, they will only correct what they have been advised is a mistake if they accept the advice that it is a mistake;

(2) if they do not accept it is a mistake, they are most probably doing so because they do sincerely believe it is not a mistake. That is, we apply the Muslim rule, in respect of our brothers, of giving them "the benefit of the doubt".

Also, notice that the brothers at At-Tibyan have stated that if the particular matter under discussion here is a mistake, then they will correct it.

Furthermore, in a more recent development brother Abuz Zubair has made two interesting and relevant points, which are:

(1) that he wants those brothers to give the source for the translation of the Hadith by Muhsin Khan, which translation may or may not be in error;

(2) that if the author or authors of the Tibyan document we have been discussing had to rely on a translation by someone of a Hadith (rather than referring to and translating the original themselves and thus noticing the error if it is an error) then does this or does this not call into question the importance of the document - from the viewpoint of scholarship - that we have been discussing?

If you know Arabic good enough to be able to write a research paper, why bother looking at the Noble Quran translation?

[Ibn abd]

why dont some one try to expose abu zubair, or have they? he keeps wanting to expose everyone and take them under his wing(banner)! sounds like a dodgy dude who could do with opening his mind up to other opinions and take them on board.

[AbuUsama]

why dont some one try to expose abu zubair, or have they? he keeps wanting to expose everyone and take them under his wing(banner)! sounds like a dodgy dude who could do with opening his mind up to other opinions and take them on board.

No akhi he is being exposed by his replies

[Abu Ma'mar]

And about who is running it now, well I'm a member on the forum and it's the same brother who ran it back when some of the brothers who are now in jail -including the one who compiled this particular release- were with Tibyan. And anyone on that forum can speak about his knowledge and his good manners and his justice towards disputed opinions, as well the scholars he studied with and is still in contact with. I make Allah a witness over that and I think the real fools are those who know this but choose to stay silent, or people who were with Tibyan and know the truth and the sincerity of those brothers and might even had/have a personal relationship with them and still sit by and let them be slandered in this way. Allah is behind those who defend their brothers, so woe to you woe to you woe to you.



I didnt read all the posts in this thread, and i didnt read this book on targeting women and children but im sorry this is getting to much now.


This brother is Aboo Sulayman(now abus-saqr) from Islam world forums and Clear guidance forums.

This guy is not a Taalib al-'ilm or an 'aalim like the way your putting him out to be.

Everyone has their place.

The people who are jaahil like me who just like to listen to lectures and read a book here and there have their place.

The hobbyist people who study islam when they are not at work or school have their place.

The full time 24/7 tullaab al-'ilm who's full time job is seeking knowledge under the scholars have their place.

And the Mufti has his place.


And this brother whether you like it or not falls into the second group as a hobbyist. He was never a talmidh of any scholar.

And if having Al-'Ulwan's phone number is being " in contact with the scholars" then i think anyone who wanted his number that went to Al-Muntada probably had it, when he was doing lectures there.


Brother Wallah im not saying this to cuss that bro out or anything, as i think he's a decent bro, but the way your describing him i think is sooo misleading to other people.

Just ask him straight : have you been the full time student of any scholar or have you even graduated from an islamic uni or daar?


Again im not saying this to put the bro down, i just thought i had to say this just in case i get punished for letting people think that the ones writing these kind of books are big Tullaab or mashayikh or something.

[Naseer08]

The bottom line is that in those 109 pages trash you couldn't bring ONE Legal text, from the Quran and the Sunnah, and NOT A SINGLE statement of a SINGLE classical scholar from ANY of the four madhabs, to support your opinion! So you had to invent a lie upon the Prophet. And now, to defend that lie, you have to invent more lies on M. Khan and Abu Qatada himself.


Before you come here writing about the subject check your emotions.

And if your going to give criticism give it where it due. It’s false to say Tibyaan found no evidence to support their opinion , and then resorted to fabricating hadith. This is a very serious accusation!!

Not only this but your going into matters of the unseen claiming to know their intentions, saying they Intentionally changed the meaning of hadith. And if this wasn’t bad enough you finish off accusing them of being spies, suggesting we call them zanadiq (apostates).

I don't agree with what they wrote and I'm not here to defend their argument. Some are taking their criticism a little too far.

[Abuz Zubair]

This is what happens when you get a bunch of total jahils in a cult following, just like OBM and his followers.

Firstly; something as clear as that cannot be mistranslated, even by mistake, unless by someone does not know Arabic. The text clearly states: 'so we take them...'. For one to make it 'so we kill them' beggars belief! So to say that these guys genuinely believe فنصيبهم = so we kill them only shows that they do NOT know Arabic at all. I mean, just from the language point of view alone, this does NOT mean that! And for them to persist on their ignorance for so many years only confirms their sorry state of affairs.

Secondly; we are not discussing AQ's opinion here, which is very clearly. We are discussing AQ's explanation of the hadeeth in question since Tibyan claimed that their mistranslation is based on AQ's explanation of the hadeeth in THAT fatwa. I proved them wrong by quoting the full fatwa of AQ (which they chopped off) to show that even AQ clearly states that 'this hadeeth indicates the permissibility of taking them as captives...' I.e. contrary to their understanding, AQ explicitly stated that the hadeeth means 'taking captives' and not killing. And he cannot do anything else because he isn't some linguist magician who can dictate that 'taking captive' from now on should mean 'killing them', or that 'apples' from now on mean 'oranges', etc... This would be ridiculous. This is why it is extremely ridiculous for these ignorant youngsters to reduce this issue to a matter of misunderstanding to hide their incompetency in the Arabic language.

I mean, how can you say: 'taking captive' means 'killing them', because so and so Shaykh says so?! ridiculous!

So now, not only that we want a reference from the Noble Quran translation (where we believe they are lying, anyway) we want them to admit that:

a) they chopped off AQ's fatwa in their article
b) they lied in saying that they based their distortion on AQ's explanation

As I said, a lie leads to another lie, and a series of them lead to jahannam.

[Abuz Zubair]

Before you come here writing about the subject check your emotions.

Have a strong heart to accept honest criticisms against ppl you are biased towards.

And if your going to give criticism give it where it due. It’s false to say Tibyaan found no evidence to support their opinion , and then resorted to fabricating hadith. This is a very serious accusation!!

Then show us a single evidence they brought from a Quranic verse or a hadeeth or even a statement of a single classical scholar who said one can intentionally target women and children in retaliation. Go and trying your best to look for it, and let us know once you've found it.

Not only this but your going into matters of the unseen claiming to know their intentions, saying they Intentionally changed the meaning of hadith. And if this wasn’t bad enough you finish off accusing them of being spies, suggesting we call them zanadiq (apostates).

Keep the irja stuff to yourself, please. I didn't accuse them of zandaqa (which doesn't always mean apostasy, anyway)... I said, distortion of the texts is what the zanadiqa do.

I don't agree with what they wrote and I'm not here to defend their argument. Some are taking their criticism a little too far.

If you are not here to defend them, then plz quit defending them! :) As simple as that! You are taking a portion of Allah's wrath in arguing for those who distort His religion. If you didn't want to do that, why take part in something like that?

[Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari]

No akhi he is being exposed by his replies

Assalamu 'Alaykum,

One only has to look at this thread to see the utter biased approach he has for anyone who is defending the correct 'Aquedah. These people sit at the edge of their seats waiting for anything that can put doubt into the hearts of brothers and then they go and advertise doubts everywhere and anywhere, while at the same time being totally hypocritical when their likes fall into the same mistakes.

Abu Zubair the sad thing is you don't even see it, and your writting shows your one-sided agenda in the matter and your hate for what the brothers stand for leaks between your lines, making every post or thread you put up anything but a propper scholarly refutation.

EXAMPLE: You said when speaking about if M. Khan would have made the same mistake:

Thirdly, EVEN IF this is how M. Khan translated it, he is blatantly wrong and he has made a blunder, and this isn't exactly the first translation blunder to exist in the English Noble Quran - if it even exists!.

So....... IF M. Khan made this type of mistake then it is wrong and "he had made a blunder."

But...... IF Tibyan Pubs makes the same mistake then its

only zanadiqa and hypocrites do this sort of stuff.

Actually I like that you hold this opinion and I advise anyone to use these quotes next time Abu Zubair comes and defends his scholars for misinturpreting the texts. And actually we can go back to the old posts about "Ruling by other than Allah has revealved" to see many examples of him giving excuses here and there for his Mashaykh.

Next point:

Brother if they where to blaintantly lie against the prophet, trust me we wouldn't be defending them, actually brothers who have contact with them probley would do allot more. But when some guy on some english forum who has for many years shown his one-sided biaseness, goes and says hes found something incorrect, while on the other side you have a publishing group that has proved their trustworthyness through 100 plus books and articles, who do you expect us to believe at first. Its just like if a Madkhali came up to me and said Shaykh Abu Hamza lied upon the prophet, I'd laugh in their face. Of coarse that doesn't mean we won't give further research in the issue, but the fact of the matter is just like with a Madkhali:

"Your words hold no weight with us."

And finally you know your problem with them isn't just in this matter. You don't like any of their works. And you hate that they translated the books of Shaykh Nasir Fahd, Shaykh Al'Alwan, Shaykh Abu Qatadah, Shayh Shu'aybi etc. And you've proven that you don't agree with their opinions before they where arrested when you went a peraded their videos of them giving their Tawbah under duress. And acted like there was noway that they where coerced into saying that. Sense that article I've lost all trust in your writtings because only a fool and a person with a Madkhali aganda would hold such an opinion.

The day you go and translate a work that exposes the Kufr of fighting with the Kufar against the muslims, the day you put out a post, let alone an article or a book about the many many acts of disbelief that are being done today, then you can talk. Going and refuteing 'Aquedah is all good, but it doens't matter if you lack in the basics of Tawheed.

And if you want to attack my character saying "Rap" or whatever, then "Whatever" just because I make nasheeds doesn't mean I don't hold some knowledge in the matter. Alhamdu Allah from what I see many people have allot of knowledge but unless you have Ikhlas in the matter then it wouldn't help you at all. Even the Kafer Hazmah Yusif I'd admit has more knowledge than me and most the brothers here, but that doesn't mean that hes correct. And the same goes for you. Jizak Allah khair.

[Abuz Zubair]

Abu Ayoub,

your post does nothing to vindicate you guys. It only goes on to prove that you put Tibyan before Islam and Sharia, And Allah will deal with you as he always deals with those who distort His religion.

So....... IF M. Khan made this type of mistake then it is wrong and "he had made a blunder."

But...... IF Tibyan Pubs makes the same mistake then its
This is because M Khan is NOT trying to prove anything whilst quoting that hadeeth in his translation - that is, if he even quoted that hadeeth.

Whereas you guys are trying to prove a point and justify it, and the only basis on which you can do this is by distorting the hadeeth. After all, this was the only part of the paper you saw fit to be made into a blurb and a summary for the whole document. Don't you remember how tibyan used to link this document everywhere with a little blurb "so we kill them"?!

In light of this, if M. Khan was in the middle of proving a point and end up mistranslating, I would also call that distortion.

BUT I ASK AGAIN, AND AGAIN: PLEASE SHOW US WHERE IS THAT MISTRANSLATION? OR IS THAT ANOTHER LIE OF YOURS?

As for your accusing me of being a madkhali, etc, only shows your own idiocy. I had been defending the Sunni position of al-hukm bi ghayri ma anzalAllah long before Tibyan ever came on the seen.

It was when the debates between ourselves and the Spubs were done and dusted did a brother from Tibyan contacted me asking for my help in refuting Spubs. But then I didn't know him and therefore didn't want to join up with him in any venture, and thank God for that decision.

I grew up in the middle of this storm in London with AbuQatada, Abu Ithar, etc before even Abu Baseer came into the scene. That's when you were still rapping in your own bubble in the US.

Yes, I disagree with lots of other material Tibyan have released. But this is NOT what I am talking about. I am talking about blatant distortion of Shara'i texts, which YOU do not give a damn about. This only goes on to show that you guys don't give two hoots about Sharia, and this is why:

1) you guys never even bother to study the sharia
2) you remain ignorant of how to even implement it in your daily lives
3) you don't give two hoots if someone distorts the sharia.

So whilst the rulers on the one hand are replacing the sharia with secular laws. You on the other hand are physically distorting it.

This is when happens when you keep on barking 'taghoot this taghoot that' 24/7, until you yourself become a taghoot.

But as Allah has promised, He will secure His religion from your likes and give you what you truly deserve for playing around with His Deen.

[Abu Maysara]

Originally Posted by AbuUsama http://forums.islamicawakening.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?p=79309#post79309)
No akhi he is being exposed by his replies
Originally Posted by Abuz Zubair:
Thirdly, EVEN IF this is how M. Khan translated it, he is blatantly wrong and he has made a blunder, and this isn't exactly the first translation blunder to exist in the English Noble Quran - if it even exists!.

true indeed, he keeps on exposing his hatred towards those who hold different opinion than his, for example Tibyan, by contradicting himself ,
admitting that M. Khan made several so called blunders and on the other hand goes on to say that tibyan intentionally mistranslated their publication.

why make fun of those different "salafi" groups who keeps on refuting and insulting each others with pdf's and posting on forums, when you turn out to be of the same mentality, with a tunnel vision never seen before?

to the sincere brothers and sisters here, who take their Deen serious, keep on defending the truth and expose the people of dalaal.
go through his posts and you will find the use of a language that is filled with insults and remarks belittling those of a different opinion, that does not fit a Muslim let a lone someone running an "Islamic" forum as a head admin,
i have seen many members acting like this here, arrogant/insulting behaviour acting with a lot of false pride , kibr.
Beware of the hidden shirk if the Deen is dear to you, that is.

[Salsabil]

Its really sad to see such angry behaviour from Abuz Zubair towards brothers from Tibyan. I love it when he is attacking ahl bida etc., but why being so harsh with people of tawheed wal jihad, because of fiqhi difference I dont know. If indeed its true, that someone at Tibyan did do all this bad stuff, then should repent and change what they wrote, otherwise they should answer these questions. But since they are in prison, I dont know who will answer now... This is indeed a serious matter, for some scholars considered lying upon Prophet to be close to kufr (or even kufr maybe, dont remember). I am sure it was a mistake inshaAllah, but it would be good to clarify this.

By the way, Abuz Zubair, how many years have you been learning the deen, or arabic, and since when have you become practising?

[Abu Maysara]

This only goes on to show that you guys don't give two hoots about Sharia, and this is why:

1) you guys never even bother to study the sharia
2) you remain ignorant of how to even implement it in your daily lives
3) you don't give two hoots if someone distorts the sharia.


really dangerous statement,
the head admin of the board goes on to:
claiming to know: if they (those who opposes him) studied Shareah or not (you guys never even bother to study the sharia)
claims to know :their level of knowledge on how to practice Islam in their daily lifes (you remain ignorant of how to even implement it in your daily lives)
claims to know: their hidden intentions (you don't give two hoots if someone distorts the sharia)

what remains to be exposed?

[Abu Maysara]

Abu Zubair, you claim to posses a lot of (hidden) knowledge about the brothers who opposes you, some of it are hidden from other human beings, such as intentions and such.
can you answer, how did you obtain this knowledge ?
Is not Allah swt the Knower of what is hidden in the chest/hearts of people?

is this the practice of Islam that you accuse others of being lack of?

[Abu Sabaya]

Yes, I disagree with lots of other material Tibyan have released. But this is NOT what I am talking about. I am talking about blatant distortion of Shara'i texts, which YOU do not give a damn about.I think this pretty much sums up the whole thread.

The brother is addressing a very specific issue, and others keep trying to avoid the heat by changing the subject because they're stuck and cannot find a convincing answer to give.

[AbuUsama]

true indeed, he keeps on exposing his hatred towards those who hold different opinion than his, for example Tibyan, by contradicting himself ,
admitting that M. Khan made several so called blunders and on the other hand goes on to say that tibyan intentionally mistranslated their publication.

why make fun of those different "salafi" groups who keeps on refuting and insulting each others with pdf's and posting on forums, when you turn out to be of the same mentality, with a tunnel vision never seen before?

to the sincere brothers and sisters here, who take their Deen serious, keep on defending the truth and expose the people of dalaal.
go through his posts and you will find the use of a language that is filled with insults and remarks belittling those of a different opinion, that does not fit a Muslim let a lone someone running an "Islamic" forum as a head admin,
i have seen many members acting like this here, arrogant/insulting behaviour acting with a lot of false pride , kibr.
Beware of the hidden shirk if the Deen is dear to you, that is.






Masha Allah well said he deserves such refutation
Allahu Akbar

[Abu Maysara]

Originally Posted by Abuz Zubair http://forums.islamicawakening.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?p=79337#post79337)
Yes, I disagree with lots of other material Tibyan have released. But this is NOT what I am talking about. I am talking about blatant distortion of Shara'i texts, which YOU do not give a damn about.

I think this pretty much sums up the whole thread.

The brother is addressing a very specific issue, and others keep trying to avoid the heat by changing the subject because they're stuck and cannot find a convincing answer to give.

please get out of your tunnel vision, what do you and your mentor know about peoples hearts as to accuse them of intentionally distorting ?
but i should not get surprised, because you say:
others keep trying to avoid the heat by changing the subject because they're stuck and cannot find a convincing answer to give

seems that you know the hidden as well!

the issue at hand is exactly the one i addressed, the claim is that they intentionally falsify/distort...and the admin board claims that they know the intentions of Tibyan and as well some hidden facts about members on this board

[y-mughal]

I think this pretty much sums up the whole thread.

The brother is addressing a very specific issue, and others keep trying to avoid the heat by changing the subject because they're stuck and cannot find a convincing answer to give.

I get the impression from other posts that you were a translator and a moderator at Tibyan - please correct me If I'm wrong. If that was the case were you involved in the translation of the related piece?

[Abu Sabaya]

I get the impression from other posts that you were a translator and a moderator at Tibyan - please correct me If I'm wrong. If that was the case were you involved in the translation of the related piece?Absolutely not.

[y-mughal]

Absolutely not.

Jazak'Allah Khairan for your reply. You weren't a moderator/translator or didn't translate the related document?

[Muntasir]

No a brother in jail now may Allah free him did. Though Abu Sabayaa certainly did have enough years to express his issues with the piece but he didn't, not once at least not within the forum. And he had more than enough time to leave them for the so-called "intentional distortions" he's so passionate about now but he didn't until the guy who ran the forum (not the guy who runs Tibyan) banned him.

[Abuz Zubair]

true indeed, he keeps on exposing his hatred towards those who hold different opinion than his, for example Tibyan, by contradicting himself ,
admitting that M. Khan made several so called blunders and on the other hand goes on to say that tibyan intentionally mistranslated their publication.

As for my hate for Tibyan for their wrong actions, then that's something not hidden. It is indeed a sign of faith to hate corruption. It is only the lack of faith on your part that you cannot get yourself to call spade a spade, let alone hate a crime against Sharia.

And as for your argument that M Khan's errors are deemed as errors, whilst Tibyan errors are deemed distortion, then even that has been answered in this very thread, but things need to be repeated until they sink into thick skulls.

M. Khan may have many translation mistakes. All works are prone to error, including Tibyan.

However, with every translation error, one can see why one may have been confused during the process of translation. Yet, sometimes, the Arabic is so glaringly obvious that you simply cannot get it wrong. 'Taking captive' just does not mean, and cannot be mistaken with 'killing' ESPECIALLY with Abu Qatada's explanation of the hadeeth saying: 'this dictates the permissibility of taking captives....', which is what they translated from to begin with!

And now, they wanted to top it up with another lie, that they deliberately mistranslated it in light of Abu Qatada's understanding of the text! Whilst Abu Qatada himself does not anywhere indicate that 'taking captives' means 'killing'. Rather he considers 'taking captives' to be 'taking captives'.

Moreover, I brought this error to their attention MONTHS before they were arrested. I met one of the brothers personally and asked him specifically about this error, and guess what? We didn't even have to argue to prove that the translation is terribly wrong. HE KNEW IT! And he promised that he would raise this issue with them. He also told me that he wasn't the translator of the piece, either.

He is a good brother, may Allah release him, soon. I was having meetings with him precisely to save him from the situation he has fallen into.

So the point is that Tibyan have known about this for a LOOoooong time! People from within Tibyan have known about this. I have been shouting and screaming about it since before they went to prison, and after. Yet, nothing has been done.

Shame on the distorters of Sharia.

but why being so harsh with people of tawheed wal jihad, because of fiqhi difference I dont know.

If the matter of permissibility of distorting legal texts was a fiqhi issue, I would have been soft. But I don't think it is one.

Please, be consistent and show the same anger here which you show towards the rulers. The victim here is one: the Sharia.

claiming to know: if they (those who opposes him) studied Shareah or not (you guys never even bother to study the sharia)
claims to know :their level of knowledge on how to practice Islam in their daily lifes (you remain ignorant of how to even implement it in your daily lives)
claims to know: their hidden intentions (you don't give two hoots if someone distorts the sharia)

What's up with you guys? Whenever you are attacked the way you attack others, all of a sudden you guys turn into Murjia? Doesn't the word dhahir mean anything to you?

One doesn't have to live with you to realise your lack of knowledge of the Sharia. Your posts reflect that quite well. Not one of you has ever studied fiqh properly, and this is precisely why you end up writing nonsense like Tibyan research papers.

Your obvious and apparent lack of knowledge of the Sharia means that you cannot exactly act on it in every single issue of your daily lives.

As for you not giving two hoots about distortions... Well, that's the most obvious trait out of the three here.


Now, back to the heart of the discussion:

You have been proven to be LIARS on this very thread on account of attributing something to Abu Qatada he never said.

You're yet to be proven LIARS on account of attributing something to the Noble Quran translation something that does not actually exist.

Could you please bring us the reference from the Noble Quran so we can end this fiasco once and for all?

[Intoodeep]

if only everyone wasnt so hard-headed.

These guys should humble themselves, accept where they have been wrong and corect it. Why the ego?

We all want islaam to succeed so when people check your work, say thank you for correcting us and move on.

[Abu Sabaya]

Though Abu Sabayaa certainly did have enough years to express his issues with the piece but he didn't, not once at least not within the forum.I never bothered reading the thing, and still haven't even read it until now. I first read about all of this on here a few months ago.

the so-called "intentional distortions" he's so passionate about now but he didn't until the guy who ran the forum (not the guy who runs Tibyan) banned him.I myself never accused anyone of this.

In any case, Abuz-Zubayr is absolutely right.

[Brother_Mujahid]

The stubborn hizbiyyah of some people is quite appalling. I am reminded of those extremist murji'ah who still defend the 'irjaa of people like Khalid al-Anbari and 'Ali al-Halabi, even after it has been refuted by scholars they claim to hold in high esteem and claim are superior in knowledge.

[Um Abdullah M.]

The stubborn hizbiyyah of some people is quite appalling. I am reminded of those extremist murji'ah who still defend the 'irjaa of people like Khalid al-Anbari and 'Ali al-Halabi, even after it has been refuted by scholars they claim to hold in high esteem and claim are superior in knowledge.

I agree with you.

[Salsabil]

I have benefited both from Abuz Zubair (and his site) and from Tibyan, may Allah reward them all for their good, and forgive their mistakes. If I would see someone attacking Abuz Zubair somewhere else, I would also feel bad about it, even though I sometimes disagree with him. In this case, the matter is serious, if it is indeed as Abuz Zubair puts it. I have no clue for my arabic is very basic, but I know that Abuz Zubair can be very agressive mashaAllah, as one chap here even called him an attack "dog" of sunnis or something :) I would call him a thorn in the necks of english speaking ahl-al bida! but if its indeed as he puts it, then brothers need to repent inshaAllah!

And no need to compare these parties, who could make mistakes in their service to Tawheed, with governments who are killing Sharia and its followers completely.

[Hamza]

but if its indeed as he puts it, then brothers need to repent inshaAllah!Yea bro... thats the bottom line. Get rid of that document and clean break - holding on to this opinion is madness.

It dont make no sense from any angle to me...

[Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari]

Assalmu 'Alaykum,

For those who don't know recently there has been a big discussion about Tibyan's credibility, and there have been very serious accusations thrown against them. The worst being that they where lieing upon the Prophet SAWS. So
Alhamdu Allah after some research I went and found the Hadeeth in Saheeh Bukhari that some have claimed Tibyan misquoted and changed the meaning from "kidnap" to "kill" in some compiracy to fill their own agenda. The propblem is that the brothers who wrote this are not available to clearify the issue and defend themselves, so some people are taking advantage of this and using it to discredit the brothers. Well I hope that after this thread this whole thing will be finished with.

Okay now, in the other thread one brother said that Tibyan got their opinion from the translation of Dr. M. Khan and I so happen to have his 9 volume set of Sahih Bukhari where when I researched the issue further found something quite interesting. In the 5th volume, page 303 hadeeth number 4178, 4179 states:

و سار النبي حتى كان بغدير الأشطاط أتاه عينه قال: "إن قريشا جمعوا لك جموعا و قد جمعو لك الأحابيش و هم مقاتلوك و صادوك عن البيت و مانهوك." فقال: "أشيرو أيها الناس علي, أترون أن أميل إلى عيالهم و ذراري هؤلاء الذين يريدون أن يصدونا عن البيت؟ فإن يأتونا كان الله عز و جل قد قطع غينا من المشركين و إلا تركناهم محروبين.
قال أبو بكر: "يا رسول الله, خرجت عامدا لهذا البيت لا تريد قتل أحد و لا حرب أحد, فتوجه له فمن صدنا عنه قاتلناه" قال: "امضو على اسم الله"


Heres the translation from the book "WORD FOR WORD"

The Prophat SAWS proceeded on till he reached (a village called) Ghadir-al-Ashtat. There his spy came and said, "The Quraish have collected a great number of people against you, and they have collected against you the Ethiopians, and they will fight with you, and will stop you from entering the Ka'bah. The Prophet SAWS said:
"Oh people! Give me your opinion. Do you recommend that I should destroy the families and offspring of those who want to stop us from (going to) the Ka'bah? If they should come to us (for peace) then Allah ('Azza wa Jal) would destroy a spy from Al-Mushrikeen, or otherwise we will leave them in a miserable state.
On that Abu Bakr said: "Oh Allah's Messenger! You have come with the intention of visiting this House (i.e. the Ka'bah) and you do not want to kill or fight anybody. So proceed to it and whoever should stop us from it, we will fight him." On that the Prophet SAWS said, "Proceed on, in the Name of Allah!"
End of text...

Now one might be lead to believe that the prophet could've meant kidnap, but for the Grace of Allah Abu Bakr's testomony proved the intention of the prophet and what the prophet meant was fighing and killing not taking or kidnaping. So with that this issue cannot be considered "Lieing on the Prophet" like some claim, but is a valid opinion even shared by Dr. M. Khan who uses the term "Destroy them", now I'm not a linguist but I know english good enough to know that destroy doesn't mean to take or kidnap.

The fact is that if anything was misquoted it was only the statement of Shaykh Abu Qatadah. And some seemed to forget in the drunk rejoice of finding a "needle in a haystack" doubt, that the quote they where using wasn't a direct hadeeth nor quote from Imam Bukhari, but instead was a second hand quote from Shaykh Abu Qatadah. So when he said:

وقد رواه البخارى فى صحيحه بألفاظ مقاربه ففى الحديث جواز اتخاذ الذرية والنساء وسيله ضغط على المشركين


And it is narrated from Al-Bukhari in his Saheeh with similar wording and in the hadeeth it gave permissiblilty for "Itkhaadh" or "Taking" offspring and women by way of applying presure on the Mushrikeen
End of Quote...

This qoute cannot be taking directly, but needs to be judged by the whole quote rather than just cutting and pasteing one sentance. And its amusing that what those who claimed Tibyan was purposely cutting out only the parts that fit their desires, fell into the same accusation they threw on others. When one just looks at the following sentance it becomes as clear as day what the Shaykh truely meant.


فان النبى صلى الله عليه وسلم أراد الهجوم على النساء والذرية


So verily the Prophet SAWS meant "Al-Hajoom" on the women and children.
End of text...

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the word "Hajoom" mean to attack, fight and possibly kill? I don't think anyone with a musterd sead of arabic could deny this. But if one still has doubts in the Shaykhs meaning, read what he says next.

حتى يفرق الحلفاء من حول قريش بهذا يتبين أن ما فعلته الجماعة الاسلاميه المسلحة من تهديد ذريه ونساء المرتدين بالقتل من اجل تخفيف وطأتهم على النساء المساجين والإخوان هو عمل شرعى لا شبه فيه


(continued form the above text)
Until they split the alliance of the Quraish. And with this it clearifies that what the Islamic armed groups did from threating to kill the women and children of the Murtadeen, by lightening their pressure on the women prisoners and the brothers,and this is an act that is Islamically lawful no doubt about it.
End of text...

And if one knows the history of the armed groups that he is talking about you'll know right away that he just condoned all the actions of these armed groups, which at times consisted of just kidnapings and at other times actually exicutions. So if the Shaykh was to choose a time to clearify that he doensn't condone and or is against the targeting of women and children of the Kufar then there wasnt' any better moment than this. Rather you find him earlier saying quite the opposite, actually at times promoting the view of targeting women and children if their is an Islamic benifit.


وكذلك إن لم نستطع منع المرتدين من انتهاك أعراض المسلمين والتلاعب بالنساء إلا تهديدهم بقتل ذريتهم ونسائهم فهو جائز ولا شك إن لم يكن واجبا إذ أن مصلحه أحياء المسلمين وحفظ أعراضهم اشد واهم من التوصل الى قتل المرتدين بتترسهم بنسائهم وأبنائهم وهى الحالة التى أجاز فيها الشرع قتل الذرية والنساء نصا كما تقدم فى حديث الصعب بن جثامه


And if we can't prevent the Murtadeen from exausting the exploitation of Muslims and the manipulation of our women except with threating them with killing their children and women, then theres no doubt that it is permissible, if not obligatory. If there is a benifit in saving the lives of muslims and perserving their exposure then that is more important than even doing it to kill the Murtadeen that use their women and children as human shields. And this is a matter that is permitted in the texts about killing women and children like what was presented in the Hadeeth from As-Sa'ab bin Juthaamah (RA)

The hadeeth the shaykh is talking about is the following


وعن الصعب بن جثامة قال سئل النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم عن الذراري من المشركين ، يبيتون ، فيصيبون من نسائهم وذراريهم ؟ قال : (هم منهم ) رواه مسلم بهذا اللفظ ، ومعنى هم منهم : أي حكمهم حكم آبائهم سواء .


Narrated from As-Sa'ab bin Jathaamah the Prophet SAWS was asked about the offspring of the Mushrikoon, "Yubayitoon" (i.e. attack at night) them so some women and children are hurt in the process? So he SAWS replied: "They are from them" Muslim....

And the meaning of "They are from them" is that their ruling is the same ruling as their fathers.

And for further explination.

قال الإمام النووي رحمه الله ( وهذا الحديث الذي ذكرناه من جواز بياتهم ، وقتل النساء والصبيان في البيات : هو مذهبنا ومذهب مالك وأبي حنيفة و الجمهور ، ومعنى البيات ، يبيتون أي يغار عليهم بالليل بحيث لا يعرف الرجــــل من المرأة والصبي ) شرح النووي 7/325

وقال الإمام البهوتي من الحنابلة في الروض المربع ( ويجوز تبييت الكفار ، ورميهم بالمنجنيق ولو قتل بلا قصد صبي ونحوه ) 1/441




Imam An-Nawawi said commenting on this: "And this Hadeeth that we stated give permissibility to "Bayaat" them. And there is killing of women and children in "Bayat". And this is our Madhab (i.e. Ash-Shafi'e) and the Madhab of Maalik and Abi Haneefah and the majority. And "Bayat" means that you attack them (Mushrikeen) at night where you can't differ between male, female or child.

Imam Al-Bahooti from the Hanaabalah: "It is permissible to "Bayaat" the disbelievers, and to shoot them with catapalts and even if you kill unintentionally children and their likes.

So after what I have presented one can only conclude that the worst thing Tibyan Pubs is guilty of is misquoteing Shaykh Abu Qatadah, which is not something that would deem a person guilty of Nifaaq of Kufr. But people know that many times when translating into english arabic texts one may be tempted to just place the meaning of the word instead of putting the literal translation and then the meaning in brackets on the side. And you brothers who know arabic know this well and this isn't lieing on the prophet but is a scholarly approach to clearifying the issues. So be fair to the brothers and fear Allah and now that the truth has been presented I ask Allah to forgive all of the brothers and myself for our mistakes and to let us be just even if it is against our own selves.

Jizak Allah khair.

[Muntasir]

The point on Abu Qatadah's verdict was about if the Muslims could respond the same way to the polythiest army that was killing the Muslim families so that the army would stop their crimes, so Abu Qatadah used that hadeeth as evidence of yes

[Abuz Zubair]

Ok... this is getting really sick now, and if there is one person who deserves to be called 'the unrepentant rapist of Sharia', it can be none other than you Abu Ayoub.

Alhamdu Allah after some research I went and found the Hadeeth in Saheeh Bukhari Saheeh al-Bukhari?! Oh ignorant person, didn't you even care to read the Tibyan document yourself to see who they reference the hadeeth to?

Refer to “Musnad Ahmad” (18166), Al-Bayhaqī (9/218), An-Nasā’ī in “Al-Kubrā” (5/170), ‘Abdur-Razzāq (5/330), At-Tabarānī in “Al-Kabīr” (20/10), and similar is narrated by Al-Bukhārī (4/1531), and Ibn Abī Shaybah (7/387).You see? What they are quoting here is NOT from al-Bukhari to begin with! They are quoting from everywhere else BUT al-Bukhari! And you go along to quote from al-Bukhari to show why their translation is correct?! WOW!

The propblem is that the brothers who wrote this are not available to clearify the issue and defend themselves, so some people are taking advantage of this and using it to discreated the brothersDear liar, I have already stated to you and others before that I actually brought this issue up with them IN PERSON, AND OVER THE INTERNET BEFORE THEY WENT INSIDE! So do us all a favour and stop your nonsense.

Okay now, in the other thread one brother said that Tibyan got their opinion from the translation of Dr. M. Khan and I so happen to have his 9 volume set of Sahih BukhariYou shameless lying creature!

Look what the brother had said earlier:

The “mistranslation” that they use to say that we “intentionally distort texts” was taken by the brother who compiled the book from the translation of that Hadith available in footnoted commentary in Muhsin Khan’s translation of the Qur’aanHere we have an explicit claim that the translation was borrowed verbatim from the Noble Quran's footnote. Now, where is the translation from the noble Quran which states: 'so we kill them'?!?!

What you brought to us here is NOT from the Noble Quran, but from al-Bukhari! And even that hadeeth is different to what was quoted in the document! The hadeeth in the document describes the companions - allegedly - saying: 'so we kill them'. And the hadeeth in al-Bukhari you brought describes the Prophet himself - allegedly - saying: 'so we destroy them', so they are two different hadeeths, despite of being about the same story. And hence, Abu Qatada says: al-Bukhari has narrated something similar - AND NOT THE SAME!


فقال: "أشيرو أيها الناس علي, أترون أن أميل إلى عيالهم و ذراري هؤلاء

Do you rocommend that I should destroy the families and offspring of those...Aside from the fact that this hadeeth IS NOT even the hadeeth being quoted in the document to begin with, why on earth would you refer to the translation to seek proof therein?! The Hujja is in the words in Arabic!

And if you have an ounce of 'aql, with basic knowledge of Arabic... what does it mean when someone says أميل إليهم?!?!

ميل إلى means to incline towards something... The translator here took the liberty to use the word 'destroy'. Now, even the word destroy does not mean 'to kill'. A family can be destroyed and devastated by natural disasters, loss of close friends and relatives or even by being taken captive by the enemy!

It is your sickness that makes you 1) ignore what the Arabic says, 2) rely on bad translation, because it is closer to what you want it to be, and 3) you aren't satisfied with 'destroy' so you push the limits further to make it 'killing'. Typical of the yahood, and typical of their brothers in crime, the Tibyan folks and their sympathisers, may Allah give them what they deserve, ameen.

Surely, this is what happened here didn't it? Didn't they, Tibyan, being 'professional Sharia researchers', despite of knowing the Arabic, deliberately relied on a bad translation 'destroy', and even that they took the liberty with and changed it to "so we kill them"

لعنة الله على الكاذبين

Of course, this is only if what YOU say is true, that they relied on al-Bukhari and NOT the Noble Quran. But obviously, you are wrong, since the wording of the hadeeth they used is different to that in Bukhari, so you made a fool out of yourself here as always.

On that Abu Bakr said: "Oh Allah's Messenger! You have come with the intention of visiting this House (i.e. the Ka'bah) and you do not want to kill or fight anybody...

"...but for the Grace of Allah Abu Bakr's testomony proved the intention of the prophet and what the prophet meant was fighing and killing not taking or kidnaping..."What a jahil! Abu Bakr in this famous Hudaybiya incident is referring to the mushrikin making their way to stop the Prophet from going to the ka'ba! In reference to THAT Abu Bakr said, we haven't actually come out to fight or kill anyone! What a complete jahil! This has NOTHING AT ALL WHATSOEVER to do with the women and children of the tribes from whom it was feared that they may join the pagans to fight the Muslims and finish them off!

that the quote they where using wasn't a direct hadeeth nor quote from Imam Bukhari, but instead was a second hand quote from Shaykh Abu QatadahSilly man! Who are you talking about exactly?! Whoever on this planet thought that al-Bukhari was being quoted, except YOU, when I had clearly stated the following:

These are the words of Abu Qatada that Tibyan deliberately chopped up and decided NOT to quote, because it would not support their translation: 'so we kill them':

وقد رواه البخارى فى صحيحه بألفاظ مقاربه ففى الحديث جواز اتخاذ الذرية والنساء وسيله ضغط على المشركين لتوهين أمرهم وتفريق جمعهم