Hijrah - Time to Pack? Sh Haitham Al-Haddad 15th March

[fbreza]

http://www.igsoc.org.uk/images/Hijrah3.jpg

[McMood]

as-salamu'alaykum

I kinda find this event quite amusing regarding all the debates we have had over the years on this topic. And then again, not to pre-empt the lecture, but the title does say "is it time to pack your bags and leave?" which can imply a number of things. What I believe it implies, and I may be wrong, is that those who advise about making hijrah are allegedly saying we must all pick up and leave on the next flight out of the country or we are sinning! This is largely what the "Anti-Hijrah Brigade" level at those who even speak about the pros of hijrah, time and time again. And frankly its quite sad if this is repeated again...

Firstly many who are pro-Hijrah do not say one must take the next flight out or anything as drastic as that for everyone of the 1 million muslims in UK. Just like we do not say that everyone in the UK who has not performed Hajj and is able to must travel on Hajj this year on the first available flight.

Plus the accusation at those who have made hijrah or are planning hijrah, as people who are running away from the da'wah or their obligations to the Muslim community and Islam in the UK is a wholly pathetic one, as every individual has his/her personal issues.

And I personally have seen brothers who are leaders of da'wah organisations who after working long hours at work all week, have hardly any time to give da'wah in an effective manner and these are "practising" Muslims, so what of the Muslims who are not as keen on the deen, they should stay and do their 9-5, give more taxes to the UK govt., store more assets in the UK making it even more stronger (while its government walks hand in hand with America and its latest Crusade), while their children and families are drowning in the fitn of western life with its secularist, capitalist ideals being driven into their souls. Even some of our du'aat have diametrically changed their opinions and stances once 9/11 occured, so now what of the general average Abdullah (who would rather be called by his nick Abe or AB rather than be fingered out as a Muslim)? Those who say hijrah is not practical well I know many people who have made hijrah and shown it IS practical and I know many people who made hijrah to other lands seeking economic gains leaving their family, their security, their obligations? I am sure it was not practical for a few hundred people to defeat an army of a few thousand as happened many a time in the history of Islamic warfare - so practicality doesn't really cut it in this debate.

I hope the event doesn't repeat all the above again but something more constructive.

was-salamu'alaykum

[SAINT GEORGE OF ARABIA]

both call for hijra and daawa are just escape from shafaat ul uzhma.

we all well know we are living in a land where were not supposed to be in......
but we are already here,
what do we do?

some wants to run away and call it hijra
some even come up with a more lame excuse for daawa, listen to them!! you will laugh, they compare uk to indonesia.... who told you that uk will be become islamic like indonesia one day just by giving them leaflet?

khalid bin waleed only needed few thousands but muslims are in their millions everywhere.

we are all sinning, admit it you can run away and call yourself muhajeer or have a daawa table on the street corner taking insults from rude kafirs thinking you are being patient.

dont think you can fool Allah ( surah ibrahim verse 42)

it's easy to admit your weakness Allah is merciful, lying and pretending sinks you more into nifaaq.

even the archbishop gave you clues a couple of weeks ago but you want to cut and run.....what a shame?

[Abuz Zubair]

McMood, if you guys believe that Hijra is wajib, then the implication of this is that whoever has the money for a plane ticket for pakistan should simply pack his bags and leave.

If you put further conditions, then you need proofs for that.

[SAINT GEORGE OF ARABIA]

where would you go ya akhi?

in the muslim world, they have satelite tv with everything
they even think you are stupid for leaving the west.
for me, you can only move to seek knowledge for few years then come back


and have plenty of imaan coz you gonna need it

[McMood]

as-salamu'alaykum

As you know there have been many discussions on this topic over the last few years. I believe we came to a conclusion and I believe it was made very clear on what the position of the people who recommend others to make hijrah, although again and again that position is distorted by the anti-hijrah brigade.

I think someone should set up a stall outside the event, selling suitcases (good quality ones), have a advisor on where one can go, have an information pack of usueful numbers and contact of cheap exporters of extra luggage, even sell airline tickets at the stall.....cos that's obviously what the Pro-Hijrah brigade are telling every Muslim in UK to do.

How much you reckon, al-Ansar will charge for a stall?

:D

was-salamu'alaykum
McMood

[Abuz Zubair]

As you know there have been many discussions on this topic over the last few years. I believe we came to a conclusion and I believe it was made very clear on what the position of the people who recommend others to make hijrah, although again and again that position is distorted by the anti-hijrah brigade.


Well, then please clarify your position for us yourself, again... Last time what I remember from you is that Hijra is wajib on anyone who has the means to make hijra. This was your statement.

Now, tell us all, what does it mean exactly to 'have the means', i.e. what are the conditions, with daleel.

Thank you very much :)

[Abu Nussrah]

having "means for hijrah" does NOT mean one has 1000 dollars or pounds in his pocket ready for an airline ticket. What will you do when you get to your destination? I love it when brothers living in the west telling others living in the west to make hijrah while they themselves don't even have a job or just go to college. It's one thing to have a big family back home where you have land and money in your pocket and another thing if your white or arab and wants to go to pakistan. I have seen brothers who left the west to live in arab countries and come back within a year because they couldent support themselves or their families. So what if one is married? Or has children? I really think that if one can secure a job and shelter in a muslim country but chooses to live here in the west then i believe that muslim needs to rethink his excuse. But for those who are banned from going back to their countries, where can they go?

Rather then talk about the obligation of hirah, muslims should make contacts and establish a network for those who want to make hijrah so they can provide them housing and jobs. When the muhajireen went to medinah, the ansar gave them their wives and shelter! you think muslims today will do the same if you go back to your land?

If a brother just graduted college or has a good job that he can save,m then he should save as much as he can while doing research and searching for a place where can he can live there safely and securely. Sometimes, these arab countries are more fitnah then living in UK or U.S. But for some, listening to the adhan is more important then speaking the haqq and exposing the murtad leaders which is very hard to do living there.

Sometimes the west is more islamic then some muslim countries. I rather choose to live somewhere where you say things in a smart manner then live like a dog always scared for the mukhabaraat.

[Abuz Zubair]

having "means for hijrah" does NOT mean one has 1000 dollars or pounds in his pocket ready for an airline ticket.

Ok, but according to the proofs the pro-Hijra camp uses to oblige the Muslims to make hijra, and further impute sinfulness on those who don't, all you need for hijra is al-zad and al-rahila... journey's provision and transport. If you have that, hijra is wajib, and if you do not perform hijra you are sinful.

This makes hijra wajib on perhaps 99% of the Muslim population in England.

Now, if these brothers want to add further conditions to lessen the aforementioned percentage, then let us hear them and the proofs.

[McMood]

as-salamu'alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

To keep this short as frankly I personally see no point having another long drawn out discussion.

1. Br. Abu Nusrah - To clarify your point about jobless, college students. That really bears no significance on the issue anyway. For example, Hajj is an obligation on the jobless, college student, just as it is on the high flying executive who works in the square mile. Although whether they are able to do it is another matter.

Although, yes, I agree with you, we should forge contacts and make it easier and more possible for the movement of Muslims, their families, their minds, their wealth and their expertise to Muslim lands. Yes, these are very useful points to be discussed, but to even discuss that is tantamount to backwardness as a "new time" has come where the "old principles" of Islam are now no longer applicable and Hijrah is now an obsolete concept to be mocked at due to its difficulty and "impracticableness".

Obvious restrictions on certain Muslims are not being discussed or disputed here, just those who are able to.

Plus to clarify my personal situation and those around me - we are not jobless, nor are we college students - most if not all of us have either bachelor degrees, masters with honours, had posts as senior managers or the like whilst in the UK, most of us have families and children, and most of us do not have monetary and physical support of family in these lands we have migrated to. Yes, we have migrated - don't you just love that? We moved to have a better atmosphere for ourselves and for our families, an atmosphere which is on the whole much more Islamic and at least many of the practises are rooted in Islamic concepts; a place where the adhan is heard on the streets from every corner five times a day; a place where our women can go out and shop and socialise without fear of a drunk or a racist hounding them at midday in broad day light! (let alone after sunset); a place when one needs to go to the hospital there is no awkward moment or explanation needed when trying to get treated by someone of the same gender; of course not everything is so easy and comfortable and you do get the odd racially orientated treatment but on the whole on the matters which count most it is much better than the UK - note: The ability to line up and wait in a queue is not a matter which counts "most" compared to the multitude of billboards and advertisements which poison ourselves and our children's minds with nudity, secularism and capitalism.

The average Muslim today is not one who is fighting on the front line, nor is he actively in the da'wah - so for the vast majority of Muslims in the UK living in a much more Islamic environment is much more important than his obligation to da'wah and "activism". Most are struggling to pray five times a day and are ashamed of openly displaying their Islam!

The reality is that those in fear of the mukhabaraat are not in the same boat as the vast majority of Muslims. The vast majority of Muslims in the UK and Muslim lands are not in prisons or are facing prison. We are talking about the majority not the select few who obviously have different factors which effect their decisions - but often it does seem as if it is these people (the vocal few) who apply their personal situations on the general masses.

2. Abu Zubair - "sigh". That's all I have to say.

wa'alaykum as salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu
McMood

[Abu Nussrah]

Hajj is fard when one has the means, which means he or she has the money and health to perform the act. How can one buy a ticket to saudi when he or she does not have the means to stay for that long period? If thats the case, then everyone will go since the ticket is cheap but what makes hajj 4,000 dollars? Its the shelter, food , transportation etc... But if having just enough to get a ticket, then their will also be about 8 million muslins in the U.S who will have to make hijrah too.

I am not "anti-hijrah" but reality is reality and we are not in the old days where u pack camels and depend on the muslim neighbors to give u shelter for 3 days and so on. Probably half of us here in this forum wont even reach our destination without the government following us and keeping an eye on us.

But bro mcmood, let's not forget the filth that is sprawling in muslim countries. When every home has a satellite dish that will pick up everything without filtration, where a music store is in every block blasting love songs and singing about intimacy, where drugs is rampant and alcohol is legal! like in algeria, morraco etc... then what is the diff? The only diff. i see is the adhan, which some places in america do have 5 times a day. This is what the neo-salafees fail to realize. Sometimes the kuffar will treat you better then some muslims these days.

[fbreza]

http://www.igsoc.org.uk/images/Hijrah3.jpg

Just to remind everyone - inshallah the talk is this saturday.

It would be excellent if all shades of opinion were present to make this a fruitful exploration of the topic.

was'salaam

[McMood]

as-salamu'alaykum wa rahmatullah,
Dear Br.Nusrah,

The comparison of Hajj was based on the fact that you still call to Hajj even if you are in a very poor African state, where the majority of Muslims are not able to make Hajj. I am not saying Hajj is like Hijrah, in that, yes, you only stay these days in Saudi Arabia for a short few weeks whereas Hijrah is a much more long term affair. The point was the "da'wah" to the issue and the "da'wah" against it. Would you go to that poor African state and tell the Muslims there, "It is ridiculous for you to think of going on Hajj! You have a family and nation to build! There is no Hajj in this day for you people because it is impractical and detrimental to the future of the Muslims in this land." No, you would not - I hope. Hajj is still an obligation, a goal to these people when they are able.

Yes, you do get satellite TV and other filth coming into Muslim lands. Even, at the time of the Prophet salallahu alayhe wa salam, there were prostitutes in Madinah. The reality though was that the environment for the "general, average" Muslim was always better living in a Muslim land.

If we want to concentrate on the vice of a society, I don't think there would be much disagreement that the stench of the vice is strongest where it is emanating from and that is generally the Western media and its various machinations.

If we want to concentrate on the "Islam" of a people, well as once Shk. Anwar al-Awlaki mentioned in a lecture about a man who named all of his sons Muhammad, Muhammad I, II, III, IV etc, all because of his love of Rasullalah salallahu alayhe wa salam. It may be that the love is often just skin deep, in all but name, the sunnah often comes second - but from a positive perspective and something certainly to build on - at least they love him, at least they love Islam - 'they' being the Muslim masses.

In the West, they do not love him, they depict him and Islam in cartoons, headlines, films, books as a truly evil individual and cult. And when one is surrounded by the many who have this belief, whether that's due to ignorance or indoctrination or just peer pressure, it takes a very special person to stand proud and oppose it, with his physical strength, his tongue or even just hating it in the heart. Not every Muslim in the west is that special person, in fact 99.99% in my opinion are not that "special". The majority would rather cower away, not out of just cowardliness but more perhaps out of self-preservation and having a "simple", non-confrontational life even if that means side stepping a few principles in our faith. That is the unfortunate reality.

If it is the case, and its a BIG "if" in my opinion, that over half of the members of this board would be hounded by the government in UK and abroad in the places they went - then that's an indicator that the people on this forum are not the "average/general" Muslim in the UK or in the Muslim lands. As the average Muslim is not on the MI5's watch list or on a Muslim countries Mukhabaraat list. And so the views and actions of many of the people then on this forum are not reflective of the general masses, the majority, of Muslims, who are not active "dangers" to the establishment. Plus, as I mentioned a person who has these issues then perhaps the ruling is different in his/her case - we are talking though of the general masses not specific elements.

As I said, I agree with you wholly, that the ways and means of Muslims migrating and then sustaining that migration need to be researched and prepared. We as Muslims from the West have inherited many tools which we can certainly utilise and bring immense benefit not only with our minds, but with our wealth and experience to our brethren in Muslim lands.

Our brethren in Muslim lands have systematically, over the last century plus, been deprived of an "Islamic" education/ethos which during the golden era of Muslim science and discovery was the cause of much of their achievements and advancements. If you really wish to effect change in the Muslims, whether that be politically, religiously, scientifically, educationally and anything "-ally" then don't you think that is a more important goal in Muslim lands than for a small percentile living in the West - there is a stark difference in imortance in those who are politically astranged and targetted in the West fighting for a few important "Sharii'" rights of the handful of Muslims living there and those who are politically astranged and targetted in Muslim lands trying to return the Muslims to its former glory. That is just my opinion.

My only qualm is that to hold this opinion is now deemed ridiculous and impractical by a vocal few. What is more disturbing is that the actual opinion which has been the "standard" opinion for near 1400 years is now made to look ridiculous, backward, impractical for today's new Islam, with new challenges as in today's time we have an unprecedented number of Muslims living away from Muslim lands. An unprecedented time and an unprecedented new set of rules it seems for Islam and its followers.

[Abu Nussrah]

we cant blame those muslims who have some negative thought over hijrah because they see themselves leaving a fairly secure lifestyle (as an average muslim) with laws that can help them if they act smart and watch what they say and so, to a land where no rules exist. To a land where a cop can pull you over, spit at your face and your wife's and take your money and you cant do a damn thing about it. Thats what makes muslims leave such lands unfortunately. But thanks to our beloved rulers and their scholars who are protecting them by selling fatwas, the muslims cant do nothing about it because it's fitnah brother!

I myself, as an algerian, will NEVER go back to my country to live because i know i will live like a dog there. Here in the U.S, alhamduillah the dawah we did and the chaos we caused was beautiful to me, having doing dawah with ITS. So for me to live in a land where i cant even speak in the streets and forbid the munkar or expose the gov's relationship with the west, what kind of lifestyle is that? Is hearing Adhan more important then that? I wont leave my home to another land where i cant practice what im practicing now. This is what Hijrah is. Leaving for the sake of Allah (swt) to be a better slave to him not a an arab fart. In algeria, they are even scared to talk about such things in their homes! So forget about masjids and having halaqas about cuurent sitautions, which thanks again to the gov. scholars is bidah to talk about your ummah's status.

But for now, i dont see any suitbale place to take my family and have a better islamic life then where im living now, which is sad. Unless ofcourse we build that communication bridge with our fellow muslims overseas, then we can make our own small communities where we can live according to our beliefs and minhaj.

But as for my opinion, which is nothing compared to others, if one can get a good and secure job there, and shuts his mouth then he will live a better life then here in the west. It all depends on the persons priorities.

[Abuz Zubair]

2. Abu Zubair - "sigh". That's all I have to say.

I expected a bit more from you, just for the benefit of those you are trying to encourage to make hijra.

You are the one advocating an opinion here. Could you now please clarify, when exactly Hijra becomes wajib on a person? Could you please mention all the conditions and their respective proofs?

I want to know, is it wajib for a person to go back to Pakistan if he had the money for the plane ticket? Is there anything else needed for Hijra to be wajib on him? If so, what is it?

[nobody]

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showpost.php?p=58931&postcount=1

Residence in the land of the unbelievers has two necessary conditions to it:

(a) The resident is secure about his deen in the sense that he has knowledge

(‘ilm), faith (imaan), and a strong resolve such that he can be confident that he will remain firm on his deen, cautious against deviation and misguidance, and he will conceal enmity for the unbelievers and have animosity towards them, far from turning towards and showing affection as turning towards them and loving them goes against Imaan as Allah says:

"Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). Allah will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah. Truly it is the Party of Allah that will achieve felicity." al-Mujadilah 22 " O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust. Those in whose hearts is a disease - thou seest how eagerly they run about amongst them, saying: "We do fear lest a change of fortune bring us disaster." Ah! perhaps Allah will give (thee) victory, or a decision according to His will. Then will they repent of the thoughts which they secretly harboured in their hearts." 5: 51, 52

And it is confirmed in an authentic hadith that the Prophet said, "Whoever loves a people will be one of them, and a man will be with the one he loves."

Loving the enemies of Allah is one of the greatest dangers for a Muslim since loving them necessitates conforming with and following them, or at least not stopping them, that is why the Prophet said, "A man will be with whom he loves."is this a universal condition ? i.e applicable to 1)the muslims immigrating from muslim lands to kaafir lands and 2)the muslims born and brought up in kaafir lands, or applicable to (1) only.

if it is applicable to both groups then what is the ruling regarding those muslims who are born in kaafir lands, live there and do not fulfill this condition ?

[McMood]

as-salamu'alaykum wa rahmatullah

Br. Nusrah - true things like that happen in Muslim countries. It is not the general though and its an exagerration to say its the case. If it is that bad there, then there are plenty of Muslim localities which are not like that - to say there are no places, would imply that the following ayah has no basis:

" They (angels) say: "Was not the earth of Allah spacious enough for you to emigrate therein?" " Chapter 4: 97

There is of course places to go in Muslim lands. No one is saying one should move to Dubai, Jumeirah resort where life is exactly like that in the West, but there are other places even in the UAE which are better for Muslim families to move to - although there are better countries in general one can go to altogether.

You might be giving da'wah in your area, walhamdullilah, keep it up and may Allah make it fruitful for you and protect you, your family and children from the fitn around you at the same time. Amin. My point was not directed to those few active people, it is the majority who are not and just live in the west due to financial reasons in general. The reality is, there are even reports on the BBC on how the native British people are migrating from the west for a "better" life for themselves, family and children.

AbuZubair - I don't think your comments warrant a reply. I waited for a response that never came from you on a mailing list, you refused to reply when in a group discussion and said you would reply by email. That email never came - I think I made myself quite clear on my stance and my opinions and frankly at the end of the discussion, you inadvertently agreed on what I and the others were saying all along. I only replied to this post, purely because the leaflet was quite obviously, in my opinion, a ridicule of those who recommend people to make hijrah and live amongst Muslims.

As Shaykh Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips said at a private dinner engagement, with Shaykh Haitham himself present (paraphrased): "Since I became Muslim and moved to the lands of the Muslims, I have never once returned back (to live)..."

Note the Shaykh has a large family masha'Allah, and despite the struggles he has faced as he is moved from country to country in the Middle east, he values the importance of Hijrah for the Muslim community.

We asked him the following day, "We have a problem when organising events we find it hard to get volunteers who can dedicate their time, what do you suggest we can do?" He replied (paraphrased): "Well that is the advantage when Muslims live together in communities and in neighbourhoods, where their neighbours are all Muslims. You only need to go next door to recruit help in various projects. The problem in living in sparse communities far apart is that Muslim projects are much harder"

Anyone who knows the Shaykh, knows he gives plenty of da'wah in the west and has converted many thousands to Islam (Masha'Allah), in fact a reason why some people attribute to why he was moved from one Muslim country to another. Allahu Alam.

In fact I personally visited a da'wah centre here in the Middle east, in which the last ten years this centre alone had over 7000 shahaadahs! They have a few hundred of those centres in that country. Whilst living in the UK and working at a da'wah centre, we never experienced such a number. What was most amazing was this centres' facilities, the after support - the whole package was there. In my opinion, one of the reasons for such a large conversion rate was that Non-Muslims were really seeing Islam being lived. Why is there so many more converts here than in the UK? Allahu Alam. Da'wah isn't just restricted to non-Muslim lands and frankly I find da'wah being the excuse used by most Muslims not to move, as most are not like the Shaykh Haithams and the like who spend all their free time and even work time giving da'wah in the West. Most leave da'wah as a part-time hobby, after they have recovered from the rigours of a strenuous 9-5 7 day working regime, associated with working life in the west. Who can blame them, they have mouths to feed, exorbitant rents to pay, taxes which eat up over 50% of their income, exploding fuel bills etc?

Allahu Alam

was-salamu'alaykum
Mahmud

[Abuz Zubair]

AbuZubair - I don't think your comments warrant a reply. I waited for a response that never came from you on a mailing list, you refused to reply when in a group discussion and said you would reply by email. That email never came - I think I made myself quite clear on my stance and my opinions and frankly at the end of the discussion, you inadvertently agreed on what I and the others were saying all along. I only replied to this post, purely because the leaflet was quite obviously, in my opinion, a ridicule of those who recommend people to make hijrah and live amongst Muslims.

So what if I didn't reply? I am not even on that useless 'discussion' list any more. I begged myself to be removed, but you guys love me so much that you refused to comply. So finally, I had to configure my Outlook such that it permenantly deletes all emails from that list. But so what if I didn't reply then? I was busy, and then perhaps, forgot?

And I am asking you now, please clarify your opinion, and the Shara'i basis for it. Why are you so hesitant in answering a simple and straightforward question? It isn't as if YOU do not have the time right now. You seem to be replying to everyone else. I am sure you can reply to my questions, for everyone else's benefit.

So fadeelat al-Shaykh...

I want to know, is it wajib for a person to go back to Pakistan if he had the money for a plane ticket? Is there anything else needed for Hijra to be wajib on him? If so, what is it?

Well? :)

[McMood]

Anyway! Neither am I on that mailing list any more too. It doesn't change the fact that you didn't reply to that mailing list or in fact to the people who you were discussing with. I am not starting a whole discussion on it again not to get a reply from you once again let alone be reminded of how everyone who made hijrah were referred to as vegetables etc.

Perhaps AbuZ, you can write a well researched balanced piece on the whole issue of Hijrah from its rulings, to its application over the centuries along with all the fatawa of the scholars specifically regarding the west and the UK. I am not qualified to do so, as you are. Jazakallah Khayr.

On a funnier note:
Isn't it ironic that a talk, most likely against, Hijrah is done in Masjid al-ANSAR?

[Abuz Zubair]

Anyway! Neither am I on that mailing list any more too. It doesn't change the fact that you didn't reply to that mailing list or in fact to the people who you were discussing with

So what?! How does that prevent you from answering my simple and straightforward question? Why are you avoiding it and instead going on a tangent about stuff that people here are completely clueless about? Why do the people here need to know about a certain mailing list? Why do they even need to know about the content of a private email I sent to you guys in response to your stupid comments? Why do people need to know how you shamelessly forward those private emails to your colleagues saying, 'hey... look what AZ is saying now!' Why even go in to who I refer to as vegitables or cabbages? (and that isn't anything hidden, I have used the term on these very forums quite a few times!)

Now, I am more interested in the discussion itself, and not useless hearsay. I think imputing ithm and fisq on those who refuse to migrate is greater than branding a bunch of useless Salafis as cabbages which they have always been.

Now, answer my question:

I want to know, is it wajib for a person to go back to Pakistan if he had the money for a plane ticket? Is there anything else needed for Hijra to be wajib on him? If so, what is it?

[hearandobey]

bro fbreza, can you pls upload the video inshallah? jazakallahu khayran.

[McMood]

For some reason my post did not get added. Allahu alam what happened there.

So, to cut it short: AbuZubair, I will not answer just as you never answered before. Plus I think we know the manner of da'wah and debate which is done on this discussion board by yourself in particular. You can be quite harsh and quite vociferous to say the least when addressing someone of an opposing opinion. It is that "Birmimgham/Brixton" style of Da'wah which you so fight against that really is little different from theirs, filled with emotional rhetoric to go alongside with the ilmi discussion, albeit theirs is more emotional rhetoric repeating monotonously as if they are a broken LP. So I do not see any benefit in restarting that discussion and especially in the confrontational manner that you wish to discuss it with, as your questions are just loaded ready for you to get the answer that you are looking for.

So, I repeat, as you are much more qualified. I would appreciate your time and effort in compiling a piece on Hijrah, its rulings over time, within classical fiqh, the various narrations and how the muhadithoon have debated their authenticity etc. and even how you may believe the situation has changed to allow for a new understanding, if that is the case. I think this would be more beneficial - no loaded questions, no "yes,no" requests, no leading you to say "hijrah is actually quite practical and hence not ridiculous", etc etc. You can do it in whatever light that you want and we can read that and ask questions if need be,

Jazakallah Khayr
McMood

[Abuz Zubair]

So, to cut it short: AbuZubair, I will not answer just as you never answered before. Plus I think we know the manner of da'wah and debate which is done on this discussion board by yourself in particular. You can be quite harsh and quite vociferous to say the least when addressing someone of an opposing opinion.

LOL! What did I say here?

All I asked was this:

McMood, if you guys believe that Hijra is wajib, then the implication of this is that whoever has the money for a plane ticket for pakistan should simply pack his bags and leave.

If you put further conditions, then you need proofs for that.

Did you notice any attack? Any emotionalism? Any harshness?

It was a simple and straightforward, objective and emotionless question. You are the one who mentioned a certain list, and a certain email, and the word 'vegetables', etc, etc... I further replied back and said I am not interested in petty issues such as these. I want to speak about the main issue at hand, i.e the ruling of Hijra and the conditions for it, etc.

You can't just refuse to discuss with me, due to my harshness towards your friend, Uncle Tom, in a different thread. Unless, of course, you don't know the answers to my question, and you think you are stuffed. :)

Otherwise, please answer my question, 'Allamat al-Shaykh:

I want to know, is it wajib for a person to go back to Pakistan if he had the money for a plane ticket? Is there anything else needed for Hijra to be wajib on him? If so, what is it?

[Salahadeen]

Can someone please tape record the lecture and put it on You Tube? Are there any plans for this?

[fbreza]

as-salamu alaykum,

Just in the middle of editing the talk. Inshallah once finished it will be uploaded onto youtube

was'salaam

[hifdh]

keep us updated, many many many people are looking forward to this, jazaakallah for your efforts

[fbreza]

This is the first part. Inshallah I will posting them up as I edit them.

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[Nooristan]

fbreza,jzk .................

[fbreza]

Part 2 - Hijrah - Sh. Haitham Al-Haddad

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[fbreza]

Part 3 - Hijrah - Sh. Haitham Al-Haddad

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[McMood]

as-salamu'alaykum

Without getting personal, as I do not know who you are emotionally charging as Uncle Tom and then further implying I am his avid supporter. I believe the ball is in your court and an article from yourself would be appreciated.

was-salamu'alaykum
McMood

[Abuz Zubair]

as-salamu'alaykum

Without getting personal, as I do not know who you are emotionally charging as Uncle Tom and then further implying I am his avid supporter. I believe the ball is in your court and an article from yourself would be appreciated.

was-salamu'alaykum
McMood
Just answer the question... or at least let us know whether or not you even know the answer... :)

[McMood]

Enlighten me and all of us, as I do not know the answer.

Its not a wonder that even Shaykh Haitham was quite damning about your discussion board and the manner of your debates and discussions, as was said to yourself directly over some dinner in front of a few others. I would have thought after your learnings you would have calmed down and been more fruitful than confrontational.

If you have not got the time to write a piece then please say so, or if you believe there is no benefit, then refrain from commenting further. But as you seem so eager to drive this discussion with your series of loaded questions then please just do us all a favour and save the long winded discussion and tell us your whole perspective and research on the topic of Hijrah.

So please lets not keep replaying the "track", I am not responding to your question whether I know or do not know, assume I do not know as this is more correct. Now, if you want, you can do as I have requested or forget the discussion altogether.

Jazakallah Khayr
McMood

[Abuz Zubair]

Enlighten me and all of us, as I do not know the answer.Thank you very much for being honest, finally!

It is still disappointing that you didn't know the answer to the question, because you are the one obliging Hijra on ANYONE who has the means to perform Hijra, otherwise he is sinful.

And when you are asked what do you mean by 'having the means', you are silent, and further say, you do not know! Yet, you still claim Hijra is wajib on all those who have the means AND that it does not apply to most of the people in England, as they do not have the means.

So if you do not know what 'having the means' means, how can you suggest that most people in the UK DO NOT have the means, and therefore it is wajib on them to make hijra? *mind boggling*

[McMood]

Hilarious.

Frankly your ranting and raving just dilutes anything substantial you generally have to say. As usual you didn't achieve much except "put words in others mouths", refer to them in a derogatory manner throughout and then topped it off with a sprinkling, sorry, dollop of sarcasm. Anyone would say you could be the Gordon Ramsay of du'aat!

Let's try again - will you write a piece on Hijrah, not one saying what the "pro-Hijrah" are saying in 'your opinion', but what you have to say about Hijrah along with the research you have on the matter?

Jazakallah Khayr
McMood

Note: Please stop dissecting my comments and providing your own sharh. There is much I could have stopped upon in your own comments, yet for the sake of getting something "substantial" on the matter at hand and not diverting down a totally different personal tract I just ignored much of it.

[Abuz Zubair]

Note: Please stop dissecting my comments and providing your own sharh. There is much I could have stopped upon in your own comments, yet for the sake of getting something "substantial" on the matter at hand and not diverting down a totally different personal tract I just ignored much of it.

What are you talking about Mahmud?!

Give me ONE example in this thread where I dissected your comments and provided my own Sharh.

Tell me, how could you have stopped upon in this repeated question from me to you:

I want to know, is it wajib for a person to go back to Pakistan if he had the money for a plane ticket? Is there anything else needed for Hijra to be wajib on him? If so, what is it?

How much?

And for the sake of getting something substantial out of this discussion, you mention my harshness on the forums, even though I showed no harshness towards you.

You mentioned that I called some people vegetables in some personal email which you circulated around the world. What had that got to do with this thread or whatever I have said to you here?

And now you are the one to have sunk so low as to publicise that Shaykh Haytham made damning comments about my discussions as it was, supposedly, said to me directly over a dinner where you were present. What has this got to do with the discussion at hand? Who were you kidding when you said, 'There is much I could have stopped upon in your own comments, yet for the sake of getting something "substantial" on the matter at hand and not diverting down a totally different personal tract I just ignored much of it.'

I can reply to every single personal stuff you have mentioned here, but I don't think my person is worth a defence, and hence, here I am, constantly bring your attention to the issue at hand, whilst you go on a tangent mentioning personal stuff about me.

Now, again...

You had said the following in your public email:

Hijrah is an individual matter specific to every person. (i.e it's a dynamic situation, some people must leave, some people should leave and some people should stay)
Hijrah is mustahabb as according to the majority of scholars - in asl.
Hijrah becomes wajib (i.e they need to "try" to find a way to migrate, whether they succeed in that or not their intention must be for that) for those who cannot practice their deen.
Hijrah is NOT RIDICULOUS and NOT IMPRACTICAL as you and your camp claim. Our point was that the people can leave much easier now than when they initially came as they have more in the "bank". But we recognise there are other problems like visa restrictions etc. etc. but it certainly is not ridiculous and its not impractical. NOW here is the fine line, each person should be "encouraged" not discouraged to make hijrah to protect and preserve their deen. Let alone ridiculed and told they are vegetables?!!!


Now, #1 you agreed with the fatwa of lajna that if you cannot hear the adhan hijra is wajib on you.

#2 here you state that if they find the way, they must make hijra.

Now, I hope so far I have not distorted your opinion. Tell me if I have.

If I haven't, then here comes the next obvious question.

Can you please tell me what exactly you mean by 'finding way'?

Thank you very much.

[fbreza]

Part 4 - Hijrah - Sh. Haitham Al-Haddad

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[Abuz Zubair]

fbreza, JK for the videos, but you are taking a long time putting them all up! Each video you put up ends after ten minutes and we all have to desperately wait for the next!

...to be continued...

Move your limbs, mate!

[fbreza]

Part 5 - Hijrah- Sh Haitham Al-Haddad

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All good things come to those who wait :)

[fbreza]

Part 6 - Hijrah - Haitham Al-Haddad

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[Niqaabis]

just when it was getting interesting it cuts :(

jazaak Allaahu khairan for taking out time to upload them

[Abu Abdur-Rahman]

akhie mcmood are you serious or are you going to turn around and say you didnt really have an argument but was just trying to get abu az-zubair to insult you. this forum gets 10/10 for craziness.

[fbreza]

Part 7 - Hijrah - Sh. Haitham Al-Haddad

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Part 8 - Hijrah - Sh. Haitham Al-Haddad

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[fbreza]

Part 9 - Hijrah - Sh. Haitham Al-Haddad


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[Abuz Zubair]

Part 7 - Hijrah - Sh. Haitham Al-Haddad

It says this video is no longer available.

[fbreza]

Part 7:

Not sure what has happened. I'll have to try and re-render that part of the vid -it was working honest!!

was'salaam

[fbreza]

just tried playing part 7 again on youtube and its working now!!
Not sure why it did that.

Part 9 - Hijrah - Sh. Haitham Al-Haddad

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Part 10 - Hijrah - Sh. Haitham Al-Haddad

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Just one more to go inshallah!!!

[fbreza]

Part 11 - Hijrah - Sh. Haitham Al-Haddad

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The end

[fbreza]

To watch all the videos together (so you don't have to scroll through the thread):

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or visit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZM4YV6L4QE&feature=PlayList&p=018AD680C0A2F38E&index=0&playnext=1


Was'salaam

ps if you would like to support the activities of masjid ansar please think about setting up a direct debit by downloading a direct debit form by clicking here:
http://www.masjidansar.com/iy/pages/directdebit.pdf.

www.masjidansar.com

[Abuz Zubair]

JK for uploading the videos... nice work!

But why end with ya man yara? What has that got to do with the topic?

[fbreza]

JK for uploading the videos... nice work!

But why end with ya man yara? What has that got to do with the topic?

Has nothing to do with the topic just a standard credit roll with the vids we produce. V.tired now - need a bit of kip before work!!

[Niqaabis]

Jazaak Alalahu khairan

Maa shaa Allaah, he raised some valid points that we as muslims in the west should try to apply

I recommend everyone to listen to this lecture

may Allaah reward the sheikh and al-Ansar from bringing us this lecture aameen

[Navaid Aziz]

As salaam 'alaikum,

Anyone willing to type up some detailed notes on the lecture?

Ahsana Allahu ilaikum

[Niqaabis]

wa 'alaikum as salaam

I will inshaa Allaah

I'll post them up in a couple of hours

[Navaid Aziz]

wa 'alaikum as salaam

I will inshaa Allaah

I'll post them up in a couple of hours

Jazaakillahu khairan! Excellent!

[Abu Ikrimah]

You can't just refuse to discuss with me, due to my harshness towards your friend Uncle Tom ...



Careful, else you'll end up in another pdf.

[Niqaabis]

Sorry its late :o
please see attachment

[hkrespect]

Sorry its late :o
please see attachmentJazaakillahu khairan

[Nu7]

Maasha'Allah I benefitted a great deal from the lecture. May Allah (swt) reward the Shaykh and those who published it, Amin.

Really made me reconsider alot of stuff... And generally think about many of the issues that we face in the west.

[Navaid Aziz]

Sorry its late
please see attachment

Jazaakillahu khairan wa ahsana Allahu ilaiki.

A job well done, maa shallah.

[fbreza]

As-salamu Alaykum,

if anyone wishes to place the youtube player for the hijrah seminar on their web site the code is in the attached file inshallah:

[NAveed]

What is the summary of his talks?

[hshad]

What happened to part 11 (the last part)? Why is it not up anymore?

[fbreza]

Part 11 is still there, inshallah

www.youtube.com/fbreza

[Asda]

Just watched this talk in its entireity. Now, I have always held the view that leaving non-Muslim countries for Muslim ones is very much a personal and subjective issue. For those who are adamant on leaving will do so or pave the way(s?) at least. Conversely, those who want to stay for reasons such as da'wah, family, businesses, children's education etc will no doubt do so as well. Each camp has their 'proofs' and we all make our beds and have to lie in them.

Now, the danger I see is trying to derive principles of the religion without direct guidance from scholars (albeit from students of these scholars). Nobody is able to look at this objectively, least of all myself. So when the Shaikh (hereon referred to as HH) says that this is his attempt to answer this issue from a practical angle, then one can easily leave his 'advices'...

On to the talk. I was quite disappointed at the incoherency of HH's points of view. He mainly ranted on about the odd disadvantage(s) of the middle east and the asian subcontinent. His main gripe with the Gulf and the K of SA was the issue of citizenship.

What really brought out the spade (to dig his own grave!) was when he starting talking about the benefits of living near a masjid! About how it is good to be amongst Muslims, have a sort of 'community' feeling. The final nail in the coffin had to be his recommendation to spend at least some weeks, maybe months in an Arab country!?! Where our children can learn Arabic or at least become accustomed to listening to the language, to living amongst Muslim people, to hear the adhan etc!!

These are surely good reasons for people to migrate permanently. Wanting to reside in the (say) Gulf region can't be so 'head in the clouds' can it? OK, citizenship and duration of stay can't be guaranteed and we never know what is around the corner, but where is our sense of tawakkul? Though I do take the viewpoint that our prophet did make certain conditions clear when moving to Madinah...

I think the problems arise when other people's personal situations get enforced onto the general people, or in fact, just other people. Then proofs/evidences get asked for and then a theory is sought to be brought out of this mixture of personal experiences, circumstances - thereby biasing their understandings of ayat and ahadeeth.

It seemed quite poorly planned (but fairly well executed)...almost reactionary due to a relatively recent 'exodus' of UK Muslims to the East. It would be interesting to see if he does a talk on why he's against migration (which he mentions right at the end)...