Holy Horses and Shia Beliefs

[leo]

Shia horses, known as zuljinah attract people because of their decoration, makeup and bridal dress. On the contrary, when we see shia during 1-10 muharram, they don't change their clothes, they don't comb their hair. They normally remain unclean and often w/o shoes. I fail to understand the level of hypocrisy, when they take out their mourning processions on the roads, they scream, shout, weep and beat themselves like hell, but they make sure their horses are dressed up like brides as if some marriage ceremony is about to take place.


An intersting video of shia horse in London with his tail painted in red colour :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0UZx3SsDtU



Zuljinah worship :D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPo19EBbfbc&feature=related


Can ahmedjbn explain the shia beliefs regarding these holy horses?

[ahmedjbh]

sure, its nothing to do with shiasm, just like the saudi regeme doesnt represent sunnis.

I also wish they would stop and think about what they are doing, but they dont listen to me any more than they listen to the scholars who say its nothing to do with the religion.

[leo]

sure, its nothing to do with shiasm, they dont listen to me any more than they listen to the scholars who say its nothing to do with the religion.


Incorrect.

Your ayatollah Hamid Moosavi is paying his profound regards to zuljinah


http://aycu40.webshots.com/image/47679/2001309921242565564_rs.jpg

[ahmedjbh]

never heard of him.

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

caught red handed. The point is shia 'scholars' are quiet on all these issues.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

it does seem that ahmedjbh has many issues with shi'ism itself. Remember the matam thread? He said that those who believed it were uneducated shia and didnt represent shi'ism. Yet every major shia scholar apart from Khameini advocated it, as proved from their 'fatwas'.

Now he's saying something similar regarding the horse 'ritual', and again, I doubt a single shia Ayatollah has ever said it is wrong, even though ahmedjbh says it is.

Mashallah, at least you know their are many wrong things with shi'ism ahmedjbh as you have indirectly admitted by opposing and going against your scholars.

If only you applied the same rule for what is clear in the Holy Quran that opposes your marjaa, and not just practices/rituals which may upset your friends in the western world.

[Allah Diya]

Shias are perverted dogs.

[Umm]

Only Fools and Horses

[leo]

When shia find themselves trapped, they do taqiyyah and say these horses aren't holy to them, but when we ask them to show us, how many times these horses have been used for riding, the shia become speechless. No rafida can dare use them for riding purpose. Besides their use during Muharram for seeking spiritual and material benefits, these horses are taken out of their imambargahs for donations also (known as khums collection) :D

[ahmedjbh]

it does seem that ahmedjbh has many issues with shi'ism itself. Remember the matam thread? He said that those who believed it were uneducated shia and didnt represent shi'ism. Yet every major shia scholar apart from Khameini advocated it, as proved from their 'fatwas'.

Now he's saying something similar regarding the horse 'ritual', and again, I doubt a single shia Ayatollah has ever said it is wrong, even though ahmedjbh says it is.

Mashallah, at least you know their are many wrong things with shi'ism ahmedjbh as you have indirectly admitted by opposing and going against your scholars.

If only you applied the same rule for what is clear in the Holy Quran that opposes your marjaa, and not just practices/rituals which may upset your friends in the western world.


I do have many issues with some shias, but not with the religion itself.

You are incorrect as to the statement

"Yet every major shia scholar apart from Khameini advocated it, as proved from their 'fatwas'. "

I showed clearly that most if not all said it was at least undesirable. You can twist it if you like, but thats the fact.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

I do have many issues with some shias, but not with the religion itself.

You are incorrect as to the statement

"Yet every major shia scholar apart from Khameini advocated it, as proved from their 'fatwas'. "

I showed clearly that most if not all said it was at least undesirable. You can twist it if you like, but thats the fact.

they said it was best not to do it if the people i.e. non shia, do not understand it and if it gives shi'ism a bad image as a result i.e. telling their shia followers to do taqiyya.

How is this the same as 'at least undesirable'?

Your post quoting these 'fatwas' is still up on that thread for all to see.

It would be undesirable if they said it is wrong or even, dare I say it, haraam. Only one shia scholar said this. Even then, maybe he was taking the taqiyya that all the others advised to the next level.

You said you have issues with some shias. I've just proven that these include almost every major shia scholar. That would equate to shi'ism itself. That or you're just deluded:)

[ahmedjbh]

you have just assumed that they are doing taqiyah.

They were saying that if there is no danger of causing harm phyiscally or to the religion then it is ok. Hitting yourself with any sharp tool will cause harm.

However hitting your own chest with the palm of your hand wont, and therefore that is allowed.

Its all just about defining the limits, not what you claim.

Im dissapointed that you cant engage in a conversation without being so narrow minded.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

read your own post again:

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showpost.php?p=79142&postcount=26

Only khameini say blood matam is wrong. Not a single other shia scholar said it was wrong, instead they said the people i.e. non shia, will not understand it in present times.

So please stop lying ahmed jbh. Everyone can see that post above and see how you are lying.

Oh and by the way, all the major shia scholars including Al Khoi & Sistani are uneducated people who are doing wrong according to your own rule.

:)

[ahmedjbh]

These rites must be done in such a way that in addition to serving that purpose, it draws the attention of others to these lofty goals. So those actions which are not understandable and causes misunderstanding and contempt for the religion must be avoided.


Thats what Sestani says and that is also my point, Im not sure where you are getting your info from.

Hitting your back with a knife is nothing to do with islam, and does not honour Imam Husain at all. So he says there is no point.

You seem to have even lied to yourself and got to a different meaning.

[leo]

I showed clearly that most if not all said it was at least undesirable. You can twist it if you like, but thats the fact.


1.Ustad-Ul-Fuqaha Wal Mujtahiddeen Ayatullah Al Uzma Muhammad Hussain Al Gharvi An Na'eni, former chancellor Hoza-e-Ilmiya, Najaf-e-Ashraf, Iraq

"(To commemorate Hazrat Imam Hussain A.S.) There is no ambiguity in slapping the face and beating the chest to this extent that they (face and chest) become red or black but also to perform zanjeer zani on the shoulders and back is legal. But if the blood appears or comes out due to slapping and beating, it's also lawful and right."



2. Ayatullah Al Uzma Syed Abdullah Sherazi


" There is no ambiguity in the legality of sha'a'ir-e-Hussainia (seena zani, zanjeer zani, talwar zani, matam on fire) even khanjer zani is also legal. So if there is no danger of death due to these, then they are not only lawful but also inclined and superior.

Rites of Azadari of Ahle-Bayt-e-Ismat-o-Taharat (AS) are from among the most important sha'air-e-deeniya (signs of deen) and are the excellent and most prominent deeds that will provide ground for more and more reward in Aakhira (the hereafter)."



3. Ayatullah Syed Muhammad Jawad Tabatabai Tabrezi


When Ayatullah Jawad was asked about the legality of marasim-e-azadari (zanjeer zani, quma zani and talwar zani) he replied in these words:"It appears from the repetition of such type of issues and questions that enemies of Islam have got it that marasim-e-sogawari (mourning rites) of Hazrat Imam Hussain ibn-e-Abi Talib(AS), in what ever manner they are, are the more effective means for Islam's greatness, magnificence and protection.



4. Ayatullah Al-Uzma Aqae Al Haaj Syed Muhammad Sadiq Roohaani


"There is no ambiguity in seena zani and slapping on the face to this extent that they (chest and face) turned red or black and even blood comes out, similarly there is also no doubt in performing zanjeer zani on the back."



There are many other ayatollahs, ahmedjbn can read himself from shia site:-


http://www.tnfj.org.pk/azadari/coments.htm

[leo]

Coming over to shia horses again, I found some interesting pictures:-


http://aycu37.webshots.com/image/48316/2001677496921983562_rs.jpg


http://aycu26.webshots.com/image/47345/2005285240123591795_rs.jpg

http://aycu39.webshots.com/image/46798/2005353385004351473_rs.jpg

http://aycu16.webshots.com/image/48135/2000878059271363009_rs.jpg


I think its fair enough to establish now that shia faith is limited to horses only and they can't look beyond animals. I am beginning to believe that shia think everybody at karbala embraced shahadat except horses. Thats why they worship horses and expect miracles from them during Muharram days.

[leo]

Ahmedjbn I have proved that shia faith is the most disgusting religion in the world.

[leo]

If you realize the filth of rafida faith, you are most welcome to join mainstream Muslim majority.

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

You seem to have even lied to yourself and got to a different meaning.

ahmed... you conveniently continue to ignore the majority of Shi'ite scholarship which verifiably encourages it, and proclaim false statements like "I showed clearly that most if not all said it was at least undesirable."

anyone who looks at the thread (http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=10236) will see the mass of scholarly backing for the practice from your own sources, and how you disingenuously ignored its existence time after time. like you did in that thread, you now churn out series of false claims and empty rhetoric as if nobody else knows any better.

[ahmedjbh]

What you are consistently doing is picking a minority (pakistani) scholar and then claiming what ever they say represents the majority.

How many times have I said that over 90% of shias are represented by Khamenei (bans any type of self hitting as you have admited), Sestani, and fadlullah.

Yet we still see you ignoring these, and bringing the minority scholars.

Why do you do that?

[leo]

A rafida dua in which Allah Almighty and Muhammad(pbuh) are missing:-


http://aycu31.webshots.com/image/45830/2004435744664704772_rs.jpg

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

all of your comments were answered in the previous thread, to which you provided naught but silence.

How many times have I said that over 90% of shias are represented by Khamenei (bans any type of self hitting as you have admited), Sestani, and fadlullah.why don't you go to the previous thread and recall my response to this false claim of 90%:


that is an unfounded and unverified claim.

you expect me to accept that assertion (or complete absurdities like "You will never see an educated shia , or a scholar doing such things."), yet you provide absolutely no reason why i should reject Shirazi's assertion, or even Fadlallah's, that many eminent Shi'ite scholars encourage it. it's your word vs. a Grand Ayatollah's word - at least try providing some evidence for your claim like Mr. Shirazi did.you cherry-picked from fadlallah's fatwa, and tendentiously missed the part where he says that "many" scholars encourage it. guess what? that includes Sistani. the fact that you repeat this howler about Sistani discouraging it reveals that you really haven't been honest enough to look at the pages provided (yet you try to respond to them!) which relay fatawa from him such as "This is permissible, and in fact this is regarded as one of the best means of seeking nearness to Allah, since it is upholding and honouring the Sha’a’er of Allah Almighty." he also endorsed other fatawa which accepted the practice, as can be seen on the website provided.

What you are consistently doing is picking a minority (pakistani) scholar and then claiming what ever they say represents the majority.

Yet we still see you ignoring these, and bringing the minority scholars.

Why do you do that?
it's not the minority, ahmed. you know this has already been refuted. Grand Ayatollah Shirazi says (http://www.shirazi.org.uk/ashura.htm) "As with the issue of hitting the head with swords (Tatbir in Arabic or Qamah-Zani in Farsi) Imam Shirazi is not exceptional in any way to permit, and encourage, this action in Ashura. In fact ALL high-ranking ‘ULAMA and AYATOLLAHS not only have allowed this, and continue to do so, but for the entire history of the Shi'a over the past fourteen centuries, they have always encouraged this, declaring Tatbir or Qamah-Zani as very Mustahab indeed." Shirazi is an authority on Shi'ism, you are not... so don't pretend to be a spokesperson for Shi'ism. even then, at least Shirazi proves his claim by presenting a mass of Grand Ayatollahs who endorse it:

http://www.shirazi.org.uk/tatbir%20fatawa.htm
http://www.shirazi.org.uk/tatbir%20fatawa1423.htm


Al-Imam al-Sheikh Abdul Kareem al-Ha’ery (The Founder of the current Hawzah in the holy city of Qum.)
Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Sheikh Muhammad al-Araki
Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Muhammad Ridha al-Gulpaygani
Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Shahab-el-Deen al-Mar’ashi al-Najafi
Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Hassan al-Tabataba’e al-Qummi
Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Muhammad al-Waheedi
Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Mirza Jawaad al-Tabrizi
Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Muhammad Saadiq al-Rouhani
Ayatollah al-Udhma Muhammad Mahdi al-Lankaroudi
Al-Imam al-Sheikh Muhammad Hussain al-Naa’ini (The teacher of the Maraje’ of the holy city of Najaf.)
Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Mohsen al-Hakim
Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Muhammad Kaadhem al-Shari’atMadari
Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Abd-el-A’la al-Sabzewary
Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Abul-Qassim al-Kho’i (The former leader of the Hawzah of the holy city of Najaf.)
Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Seyyid Ali al-Hussaini al-Seestani (The current leader of the Hawzah of the holy city of Najaf.)
Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Sheikh Hussain al-Waheed al-Khurasani
Ayatollah al-Udhma al-Imam al-Seyyid al-Shirazi
Ayatollah al-Udhma Sayyid Sadiq Shirazi
Ayatollah al-Udhma Behjat
Ayatollah al-Udhma Abtahiand that isn't even an exhaustive list, just some of the most eminent of Grand Ayatollahs. i don't like having to copy-paste all of the above, but it seems you are far too disingenuous to look at the pages yourself.

i even gave you an extract from the very article of Fadlallah's you quoted, which again, like Shirazi's evidence, showed that there were indeed "many" scholars who legitimised it. instead of accepting that fact, you forward outright lies like "I showed clearly that most if not all said it was at least undesirable."

furthermore, Grand Ayatollah Shirazi is not a pakistani (!), it's amusing how you ignorantly proclaim falsehood after falsehood.

from his biography (http://www.shirazi.org.uk/imamshirazi.htm):


Muhammad Shirazi was born in the holy city of <st1>:place w:st="on"><st1:city w:st="on">Najaf, <st1:country-region w:st="on">Iraq</st1:country-region>, in 1347 AH (Muslim calendar), 1928 AD. He belongs to a distinguished family deeply rooted in Islamic sciences, literature and virtue. The Shirazi family has produced many great scholars and Marje's (a Marje' is the highest religious authority) as well as renowned leaders. Two of the best known leaders are Grand Ayatollah Mirza Hassan Shirazi, leader of the constitutional, also known as the "tobacco" movement in <st1:country-region w:st="on">Iran</st1:country-region>, and Grand Ayatollah Muhammad Taqi Shirazi, leader of the 1920 revolution in <st1:country-region w:st="on">Iraq</st1:country-region>, which liberated<st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1> Iraq</st1> from colonial powers. The Shirazi's father, the late Grand Ayatollah Mehdi Shirazi, has been a famous and a highly respected scholar and the Marje' of his time. He is a descendant of the holy prophet Muhammad peace be upon him.</st1:country-region></st1:city></st1>

your problem is that you obstinately ignore all of this as if it doesn't exist - and repeatedly make false claims which you then can't own up to. that certainly isn't an objective mindset.

this is a continuous habit we see from you, unfortunately, as you also ignore those uncomfortable questions posed which show how you spectacularly shoot yourself in the foot with false proclamations. you then persist in repeating false or unverified claims, as you are doing now.

[irfy4u]

http://www.binsalloom.com/1427/gallary/ghindex.htm

[zaid_ibn_ali]

Thats what Sestani says and that is also my point, Im not sure where you are getting your info from.

Hitting your back with a knife is nothing to do with islam, and does not honour Imam Husain at all. So he says there is no point.

You seem to have even lied to yourself and got to a different meaning.


What drug is this guy Ahmedjbh on? Where does Sistani say it is wrong? Again, all Sistani says is dont do it if people dont understand it. Is this not concealing your beliefs to suit the circumstances i.e. blatant taqiyya?

If I say that dont kill someone if the people dont understand it, isnt this still condoning killing, but just sayin that its not convenient to do it right now?


Wow, your blindness is astonishing ahmedjbh.

Get me one fatwa from Sistani where he says it is wrong per se. None of this 'the people wont understand it' palava.

My challenge to you:)

Only one shia scholar said it is wrong, so how is this 90% of shia?

[leo]

Taqiyyah, taqiyyah and only taqiyyah, shia have been brought up with.

[C47]

is ahmedjbh shia?

[Anikaa]

^YUP! He sure is. May Allaah guide him.

[ahmedjbh]

im going to start quoting saudi regeme scholars from now on and say that its what YOU beleive, as apparently thats how you debate.

You simply look up some random minority scholar and then tell everybody thats what they beleive.

Amazing.

[zaid_ibn_ali]

personally, I only referred to those who you quoted in your initial post! You tried to make it look like they opposed zanjeer in matm, but you clearly lied! None of them opposed it. They asked their followers not to do it if the people dont understand it. So they're not saying its wrong, rather they are saying the non-shia are ignorant so excuse them for it by not doing it near them!

These were scholars you quoted, and incude Al Khoi, Sistani, etc.

[leo]

im going to start quoting saudi regeme scholars from now on and say that its what YOU beleive, as apparently thats how you debate.


Where did you find Saudi scholars getting obsessed with horses and other animals. You can never prove your allegation :D

Why don't you admit that love for animals and expecting miracles from them is one of the fundamental beliefs of rafida religion :D

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

personally, I only referred to those who you quoted in your initial post! You tried to make it look like they opposed zanjeer in matm, but you clearly lied! None of them opposed it. They asked their followers not to do it if the people dont understand it. So they're not saying its wrong, rather they are saying the non-shia are ignorant so excuse them for it by not doing it near them!

These were scholars you quoted, and incude Al Khoi, Sistani, etc.

absolutely, yet he still has the gall to dishonestly call them a "minority" despite Shi'ite authorities stating - and proving - otherwise.

[leo]

Rafida express Love for holy horse

http://aycu09.webshots.com/image/45528/2006084902093103433_rs.jpg


Rafida gather around holy horse for fulfilment of their wishes

http://aycu34.webshots.com/image/47633/2004986271747779276_rs.jpg

[ahmedjbh]

These are sunnis, and this is ok though right?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoA8xs3Zv9Q&feature=related

[leo]

One ritual during ashura at karbala is the Kharrah Mali, or mud-rubbing, in which rafida roll in mud, dry themselves by a fire and then flagellate themselves :D

http://aycu10.webshots.com/image/48529/2001972636706343231_rs.jpg

[Abu Abdur-Rahman]

ahmedgbj what did the animals do to you guys!!!! leave them alone you zoophiles.

[leo]

A rafida kissing holy horse

http://aycu05.webshots.com/image/45804/2002445458572268790_rs.jpg


Rafida touching holy horse in order to seek spiritual benefits

http://aycu20.webshots.com/image/48659/2006105305297541313_rs.jpg

An ayatolla carrying out final inspection of holy horse

http://aycu07.webshots.com/image/48446/2003215449812870694_rs.jpg

[leo]

Lucknow Hindus and shia observe walking on fire

http://aycu16.webshots.com/image/46255/2006388640920006620_rs.jpg

LUCKNOW, India: Thousands of Hindu and shia devotees gathered here in Lucknow for the “walk on fire” ritual this Sunday ahead of Ashura.

People irrespective of any caste, creed or religion congregated at Bada Imambara (Mosque) in Lucknow to perform this rite. All emerge unscathed and ascribe the feat to the greatness of god.

“You can see that from young children to old men walk on fire without feeling any pain. So, we want to send a message that we are ready to make any kind of sacrifice for Imam Hussain,” said a shia taking part in the rite.

Guddu, a Hindu devotee, said he has been taking part in this ritual for many years.

“I never forget to perform the ritual of walking on fire irrespective of the fact wherever I am. Nor do I feel any pain,” said Guddu, who walked over fire with his one-year-old child.


http://www.jafariyanews.com/2k6_news/feb/8lucknow_aza.htm