Question for HT NAQIFEEN VERSION 2

[asharee_salafi]

Salaam

Salahudeen, you in totality about 3 members in the whole of south london, when I talked with them, they didn't know whom their emir is.

Can you please clarify who leads HT version 2? Abu rishta? Pls enlighten us.
Also, whoma re the scholars you refer to in the party, obviously, everything you type, is with your own hands, no copy and pastes, and it seems you are on the way of being a mujtahid yourself, so pls tell me , whom are your scholars because I would liek to have a q-a with them,

Thanks

[Salahudin]

Salaam

Salahudeen, you in totality about 3 members in the whole of south london, when I talked with them, they didn't know whom their emir is.

Can you please clarify who leads HT version 2? Abu rishta? Pls enlighten us.
Also, whoma re the scholars you refer to in the party, obviously, everything you type, is with your own hands, no copy and pastes, and it seems you are on the way of being a mujtahid yourself, so pls tell me , whom are your scholars because I would liek to have a q-a with them,

Thanks

Ws,

Why are you fascinated with the number of members or the Amir of the Party?
You know one can look at the Ikhwaan or Tabligh who claim to have hundreds if not thousands of the members but is that a criteria of correctness? The answer is no.

Also you continue to slander unshamedly. What sort of muslim are you? Not a god fearing one by the impression I get but lets not make this personal.

The Amir exists and is chosen by the members and their representatives. His name, eyes colour, height, length of beard is unimportant since his selection is to fulfill the obligation of having an Amir in place as stipulated by Shara. Since the Party does not revolve around personalities but is led by the Islamic Idea (Aqeeda) then the Party existence is not dependant on the existence of its leaders. Hence the Amir's personality is unimportant except to say that the one chosen is deemed the most capable by the members to lead.
The Party takes its opinions and thoughts from within the Party and from outside the Party as long as they conform with the Partys critieria and regulations i.e the Party takes its opinions from scholars and thinkers affiliated with the Party and not affiliated with the Party.

Any questions you have can be addressed through the appropriate channels and not through childish mannerisms. The Party members which include the scholars are subject to arrest and persecution for just being members in some countries and you want to have a q&A with them!

Why do you think we have the Q&A or the leaflets and booklets etc?

[gag order]

just answer his question for god sake.

do you have a leader or not?

and who are the scholars that preceed you?

[Salahudin]

just answer his question for god sake.

do you have a leader or not?

and who are the scholars that preceed you?

Whats the matter, can't you read english?

[gag order]

'whats the matter, cant you read english?'

well obviously i can thats why your replying to me. this must be an extension of your deviant aqeeda

'we trust that he can understand english but we dont believe it with certainty'

[Ummatun Wasata]

Whats the matter, can't you read english?

Characteristics of a cult, keep everything hidden, lets hear it sally “oh what ever leads to a fard is a fard” “so we must hide our leaders out of fear that our failed coup attempt of HT group can survive”. :p

[Abu Nihla]

Amongst the first scholars of HT was Sh. Taqi-u-Deen Nabhani rahimahullah, Also there was Abu Hassan Ali Hassan rahimahullah in Sudan. The present are secretive as a security condition just like Hamas in Gaza and al-Qaida in Iraq said they will give only Kun’ya names of their leaders and keep the real identities secret in future to avoid target assassinations. It’s proven that HT members are subject to arrest and imprisonment in the Middle East and Asia. In my country I don’t even have info on the rest of the members.

It’s called not taking chances, so I ask, is it unislamic?

[Abu Nihla]

About Q and A, with the mannerism you have which scholar will talk to you? Islam asks for evidences and not for names of scholars and in-fact when we reach that level we ask people of knowledge and not biased individuals who imposes their ideologies on the Muslims and brands everyone who differs with them as Shi’a, Khawarij or Rafidha.

All what you can ask can and has been answered by HT. Your questions even an 11Yr Old HT who has been cultured by HT fundamentals can answer, why waste time?

[Ummatun Wasata]

About Q and A, with the mannerism you have which scholar will talk to you? Islam asks for evidences and not for names of scholars and in-fact when we reach that level we ask people of knowledge and not biased individuals who imposes their ideologies on the Muslims and brands everyone who differs with them as Shi’a, Khawarij or Rafidha.

All what you can ask can and has been answered by HT. Your questions even an 11Yr Old HT who has been cultured by HT fundamentals can answer, why waste time?


What scholars do have they can't even be verified. Even with An-Nabahani some of your members say he was Mujtahid Mutlaq and some say otherwise that he is not.

When you take from a particular scholar one of the reasons is trust, how can you trust someone when you don't know him or his credentials? Even if you just presented an Ijtihad would I take it? If that is the case Blair could get one of his stooges to write up something to mess up the Muslims.

Why was it that people were referred to particular sahabahs for certain rulings? As they were versed in certain areas more than others i.e. credible in particular fields.....
Wake-up you want to awake the sleeping giant when you can’t even awake yourself?

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

Amongst the first scholars of HT was Sh. Taqi-u-Deen Nabhani rahimahullah, Also there was Abu Hassan Ali Hassan rahimahullah in Sudan. The present are secretive as a security condition just like Hamas in Gaza and al-Qaida in Iraq said they will give only Kun’ya names of their leaders and keep the real identities secret in future to avoid target assassinations. It’s proven that HT members are subject to arrest and imprisonment in the Middle East and Asia. In my country I don’t even have info on the rest of the members.

It’s called not taking chances, so I ask, is it unislamic?

abu'l hassan(rh) from sudan was extreamly embarrased when someone claimed he was mujtahid and he denied it!

So who are the scholars of today?

also Abu Nihla the question was for salahudeen's ht not your one, and abu'l hassan would not be considered ht by salahudin

also you mention its not about taking chance?

no its about being a scholar!

How can a group of people hide from what a scholar would inevitabley have to face (especially if they claim "ijtihad") yet they find it wasy to curse and slander people for example like 'umar 'abdur-rahman by claiming he is a ci.a. agent amongst others (like abudullah azzam) and call people goverment scholars while they themselves hide and even worse have a group which is infested with ignorance of the basics of the deen?

What would our situation be if Imaam Ahmad(rh) stayed quiet and hid? or Shaykul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah(rh) these are true schilars, death is an inevitable reality for the scholars who face the tawagheet with the truth, and there is no need to hide from that.

a scholar should lead by example not hide away and let those who are none-the-wiser deal with the work that they are not capable of....that is why you end up with people thinking they are mujtahid and giving talks and not even being able to relate the ahadith of Rasul(saw) correctly when they say "laa yumini ahadakum hatta yuhibu li-akhihee maa yuhibu li-nafsiha"!?!?!?!?!? which translates "None of you truely believe until he loves for his brother what he loves for herself!?!?!?! astagfirullah! the Rasul(saw) never spoke like this! And you know who chaired the talk? The Leader of the U.K. So what situation are they in when one who claims ijtihad can't diffrentiate between male and female gender and the leader is not even competent enough to recognise this simple mistake amongst others which was picked out by a brother with elementary level arabic!

ALLAHU Musta'an!

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

Whats the matter, can't you read english?


For us to accept what you post us as being from people of knowledge (like the many 'scholars you claim) they should be indentified to us, the fact that you recognise that fact by confirming he is a muslim shows you recognise there is some criteria to accepting 'ilm.

can we take from people we don't know? who are unqualified? No the size of his beard, hair color, eyes etc are not what is being asked, what is being asked is where you attain your knowledge as a group from, and how can we confirm that you actually have a leader who can be considered trustworthy? i.e. there should be something tangible here, not just your word for it, as we can't take your word for a majhul when we haven't even see affirmation that you know the majhul!

[asharee_salafi]

Ws,

Why are you fascinated with the number of members or the Amir of the Party?
You know one can look at the Ikhwaan or Tabligh who claim to have hundreds if not thousands of the members but is that a criteria of correctness? The answer is no.

I never said that this implied correctness, I was not asking about the members, I was asking about whom the amir is.


Also you continue to slander unshamedly. What sort of muslim are you? Not a god fearing one by the impression I get but lets not make this personal.

Hang on, I'm not God fearing because I asked whom the emir of your party was.
And I suppose you are God fearing, with all your slanderous copy and pastes.


The Amir exists and is chosen by the members and their representatives.

Whats the muttawatir proof he exists? Whom choose him, in fact....who is he?!

His name, eyes colour, height, length of beard is unimportant Shara.

......His favourite food, his favourite colour, his colour boxer shorts....I could go on. But salahudeen I asked simply whom the emir was, not anything else.



Any questions you have can be addressed through the appropriate channels and not through childish mannerisms.

I want to meet with your scholars, pls PM me contact details, surely as a party you must have scholars in this country....but I have a feeling like HT 1, that you don't have any.

The Party members which include the scholars are subject to arrest and persecution for just being members in some countries and you want to have a q&A with them!

Give me the names of those whom have been persecuted, I dare you to mention any scholar whom has been arrested.

Why do you think we have the Q&A or the leaflets and booklets etc?

because you have no scholars what so ever, you hardly have any members in your party that even know the language of the Qur'an, by having Q-A's from no author, you can easily cheat yourselves and others and say that this comes from the mujtahideen of the party"

WS

P.S....Salahudeen........who's the emir ?

[Salahudin]

For us to accept what you post us as being from people of knowledge (like the many 'scholars you claim) they should be indentified to us, the fact that you recognise that fact by confirming he is a muslim shows you recognise there is some criteria to accepting 'ilm.

can we take from people we don't know? who are unqualified? No the size of his beard, hair color, eyes etc are not what is being asked, what is being asked is where you attain your knowledge as a group from, and how can we confirm that you actually have a leader who can be considered trustworthy? i.e. there should be something tangible here, not just your word for it, as we can't take your word for a majhul when we haven't even see affirmation that you know the majhul!

The evidences were presented i.e if you dispute in a matter refer it to Alllah (swt) and His messenger....period...i.e. refer it to Quran and Sunnah.
So this thing about knowing the persons name and trying to authenticate his 'level of ilm' has nothing to do with trustworthiness ( i already told you that a muslim is trutworthy in origin unless there is something about him that makes him suspect).
Also you seem to forget the hadith of Muhammed (saw) obligating the muslim to convey a fiqh even if it was to someone more of a faqhi than the conveyer or to spread even one word of al Quran or Allah (swt) ordering us to go to people of knowledge (not necessarily scholars) if you do not know and there are plenty more examples like this...
As for my knowledge this is attained from wider than the Party since Islam and obligations on the muslim extend beyond the Partys work.
As you know the Party is a specific group engaged in a specific activity.

Even if I gave you a name. like Abdullah ibn Muhammed, then what can you authenticate?

Do you think the Party is going to expose its people just so some 'salafis' in some obscure part of of the UK can get off at it?

So a muslims word isn't good enough for you? Tell me if this stance is consistence with Sharia?

[suhail]

Brother Salahuddin,

The guy is asking simple question and Abu Imaan is right that how can we verify that you are taking knowledge from a trustworthy source and propogating amongst us.

No it is not enough for person to be just a muslim layman and giving out fatwas and we accept his understanding and fiqh. You seem to come out with your own criteria of accepting knowledge. Any Tom, Dick and Harry can come up to give his own view while he does not even know a word of arabic.

If just taking the word of muslim is ok without verification then why is there a need of grading the hadith. Everything is sahih because a muslim said it. So according to you we take our deen from every muslim whatever his qualification is. Or does qualification doesnt make a difference to you?

Really a strange postion you have Salahuddin which atleast i havent read or listened.

Jazakallah Khair
Suhail

[Salahudin]

Your mistaken dear brother.
How do you verify someone is knowledgable in any field; through his work or his name?
Was Abu Hanifa (ra), Al Shafi (ra) or Nabhani(ra) knowledgable because of their names or because it was evidenced by their work?
What do we judge ; their work or their names?
Was Einstein knowledgable in Physics etc because of his name or because of his work?
Did those who never saw, heard, spoke to Abu Hanifa (ra) ,Al Shafi (ra) etc doubt their knowledge because they didn't meet them or was it through their work and their students work, that people were able to judge their knowledge and understanding?
Example:
If I was a learned man in Tafsir but for one reason or other I hadn't heard of Ibn Kathir (ra) or Tabari (ra) but came across their work; do you think I should reject it or better still, I ask a few other people and they inform me that these people were muslims do I still reject it?

The issue is not as you describe it because anyone can convey from Islam if he is convinced of it. The soundness of what he or she maybe conveying will be determined by the strength of his/her arguement not by knowing his/her name!

[Ummatun Wasata]

Your mistaken dear brother.
How do you verify someone is knowledgable in any field; through his work or his name?
Was Abu Hanifa (ra), Al Shafi (ra) or Nabhani(ra) knowledgable because of their names or because it was evidenced by their work?
What do we judge ; their work or their names?
Was Einstein knowledgable in Physics etc because of his name or because of his work?
Did those who never saw, heard, spoke to Abu Hanifa (ra) ,Al Shafi (ra) etc doubt their knowledge because they didn't meet them or was it through their work and their students work, that people were able to judge their knowledge and understanding?
Example:
If I was a learned man in Tafsir but for one reason or other I hadn't heard of Ibn Kathir (ra) or Tabari (ra) but came across their work; do you think I should reject it or better still, I ask a few other people and they inform me that these people were muslims do I still reject it?

The issue is not as you describe it because anyone can convey from Islam if he is convinced of it. The soundness of what he or she maybe conveying will be determined by the strength of his/her arguement not by knowing his/her name!


Subhan'Allah, it's not just about the name on it's own. The name is to verify the individual, about his credentials, who has he been given permission by who is he recognised by who has he studied with etc. The likes of Imam Abu Hanifah are verified, scholars even wrote biographies on them they have Isnaad etc they can be trusted.

With your argument anyone could come along and as long he made sense you accept it even if he isn’t a scholar. So someone can come a stretch one Hukm to another reality if he convinced you.

How appropriate is this line of thinking and one can give you any waffle, anyone can become a scholar. Just read Kamali's usul ul-Fiqh and Bidayat al-Mujtahid and hey presto self made scholar. Isn’t that right Salahu-HT?:eek:

[gag order]

With your argument anyone could come along, and as long as he made sense to you, you accept it

especially anonymous spies with the alias 'hemphner' who may or may not exist!

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

salahudin, let me ask you, if the muslims is trustworthy unless there is reason to doubt, then if a practising brother with whom you have got no need for suspicion told you your leader is infact an agent of the west and when you asked him for information and proof and he told you 'trust me' , would you accept it?

Also please re-read brother suhail's and jund-ullah's points.

And as was mentioned, you put abu hanifah(ra) as an example?

His existence as well as much of his ahkam is tawatur! that is why there are different grading of the narrations from him(ra)

Also what is verified is that we could take knowledge from him, and that he is from the scholars of ahl sunnah!

You say we judge upon the work they produce? A layperson is not capable of analysing ijtihad, if he was then he would be a mujtahid, the point here is he needs to be able to first know whether or not the source from which he is taking this knowledge from is trustworthy or not.

And in that we mean does the person have the capability of doing what he does? is he trained adequetly?

If we used the basis that every muslim is trustworthy then a layperson who dishes out fatawah would be trustworthy no? Why would we need to question if he is qualified, etc?

As for suspicion? You think that your 'amir' does not arise suspicion? when he expects people to accept what he is saying is correct and not to worry about where it came from?

Ajeeb!

[Salahudin]

Nepalee,

I thought you would as an ex-member, appreciate that the Party is not a Mutjahid or a Madhab but a Political Party whose ideology is Islam.

The Amir is not the sole author, nor the one who defines the Party. In fact the Amir might not write anything fiqhi at all because the PArty is not dependant on one individual for this.

I told you also, that the Party takes its opinions from both within and outside the Party as long as these conform with the Party's method of Adoption i.e its Regulations and Rules that serve as a filter ensuring only the pure and crystallised ideas are incorporated.

That is why the question of the Amir is irrelevant and an administrative issue. I apologise if my examples failed to make you see that.

We are not a cult who depend on personalties. As you know we removed the late Abdul Qadeem Zallum as Amir even though he was one of the founding members. Or that we lost many shabab in the 50's when we stated Nasser of Egypt was a CIA agent (many just couldn't accept this in light of Nassers anti western rhetoric and pro Arab speeches)

We have mechanisms in place to avoid the AQZ scenario from repeating itself again, insha'allah. Again this is an administrative issue that does not need to be made public.

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

Nepalee,

I thought you would as an ex-member, appreciate that the Party is not a Mutjahid or a Madhab but a Political Party whose ideology is Islam.

The Amir is not the sole author, nor the one who defines the Party. In fact the Amir might not write anything fiqhi at all because the PArty is not dependant on one individual for this.

I told you also, that the Party takes its opinions from both within and outside the Party as long as these conform with the Party's method of Adoption i.e its Regulations and Rules that serve as a filter ensuring only the pure and crystallised ideas are incorporated.

That is why the question of the Amir is irrelevant and an administrative issue. I apologise if my examples failed to make you see that.

We are not a cult who depend on personalties. As you know we removed the late Abdul Qadeem Zallum as Amir even though he was one of the founding members. Or that we lost many shabab in the 50's when we stated Nasser of Egypt was a CIA agent (many just couldn't accept this in light of Nassers anti western rhetoric and pro Arab speeches)

We have mechanisms in place to avoid the AQZ scenario from repeating itself again, insha'allah. Again this is an administrative issue that does not need to be made public.

The Hizb claims not to bea madhhab however it claims to make "ijtihad" from the 'usul of a mujtahid mutlaq! And follow his ahkam in the majority of matters!

The amir of course if not the only one, however his position is the adoption so he should ahve some 'competancy' to shift through the so-called 'ijtihadat' the Hizb's 'scholars churn out.

It is also his final say what is desseminated amongst the masses for them to accept!

So with this in mind we ask who is it asking us to accept this?

as for my point:



salahudin, let me ask you, if the muslims is trustworthy unless there is reason to doubt, then if a practising brother with whom you have got no need for suspicion told you your leader is infact an agent of the west and when you asked him for information and proof and he told you 'trust me' , would you accept it?

please answer it.

jazakALLAHU Khairan

[sultanmuradII]

Do you abu iman consider a muslim in essence trustworthy unless their is reason to doubt?

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

Do you abu iman consider a muslim in essence trustworthy unless their is reason to doubt?


this is the basic rule. However there would also ente in some poitns, such as if there is a need to verify something he/she says then their proof is required.

[Abu Hafsa]

who cares about HT and who its leaders are ?? Learn the deen, its aqeedah and its shariah from the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah on that which is based upon the book and the sunnah, and implement that and its most important issues via dawah and jihad... HT will only deviate people from the correct understanding of Islaam especially from Tawheed and its implementation...

[sultanmuradII]

as for my point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by abu imaan an-nepalee
salahudin, let me ask you, if the muslims is trustworthy unless there is reason to doubt, then if a practising brother with whom you have got no need for suspicion told you your leader is infact an agent of the west and when you asked him for information and proof and he told you 'trust me' , would you accept it?

please answer it.


this is the basic rule. However there would also ente in some poitns, such as if there is a need to verify something he/she says then their proof is required.

You answered the question you posed to salahudin, yourself.

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

You answered the question you posed to salahudin, yourself.

you think so?

so what about the shubuhat?

[Salahudin]

jazakALLAHU Khairan

The Party is established to establish the Khilafah...this is its work. The thought and method to establish the state have been already outlined by the Party i.e Nabhani(ra) in his capacity as the first cell outlined this vision/ itjihad and put forward his arguments and evidences...people joined the Party thereafter and continued this work.....
The Party does from time to time issue Fiqhi material when it deems the ummah is in need of it but the Partys work is to convince the ummah to live by Islam under the State and carry Islam to the world via Jihad and dawa...this in essence means to re-ignite Islam in the people including tackling the declined thoughts and false propaganda spread by the enemies of Islam...

When the Party adopts its opinions it takes them from scholars within the Party and outside as long as they conform the Partys principles of adoption.

The Amir is competent to adopt and best suited to lead the Party in his capacity as Amir.

As for someone calling him an agent then this an accusation and Islam demands the one who makes it to furnish his proof othewise such a person would be guilty of slander and slur and this is a crime in Islam.

This is what you failed to differentiate between. Accusation based on whim and being a witness to something i.e the existence of the Amir via the transmission of many trust worthy shabab who have met him.

As for verifying his credentials..we don't need your verification as it is evident that your understanding is blurred by hatred and a cultish desire to inflict harm on the Party.

[gag order]

salahuddin your words and objectives are commendable but its fair to say that the existing framework needs to be crowned with the traditionalist aqeeda?

[Ummatun Wasata]

The Party is established to establish the Khilafah...this is its work. The thought and method to establish the state have been already outlined by the Party i.e Nabhani(ra) in his capacity as the first cell outlined this vision/ itjihad and put forward his arguments and evidences...people joined the Party thereafter and continued this work....
Just want to clarify something here. Nabhani is the party in the above paragraph, right?

The Party does from time to time issue Fiqhi material when it deems the ummah is in need of it but the Partys work is to convince the ummah to live by Islam under the State and carry Islam to the world via Jihad and dawa...this in essence means to re-ignite Islam in the people including tackling the declined thoughts and false propaganda spread by the enemies of Islam... Nabhani is dead, so who is the party now and is issuing Fiqhi material?

When the Party adopts its opinions it takes them from scholars within the Party and outside as long as they conform the Partys principles of adoption.

The Amir is competent to adopt and best suited to lead the Party in his capacity as Amir.Again who is the party and I take it is not the Amir as he is leading the party.

Await your reply insha'Allah

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

The Party is established to establish the Khilafah...this is its work. The thought and method to establish the state have been already outlined by the Party i.e Nabhani(ra) in his capacity as the first cell outlined this vision/ itjihad and put forward his arguments and evidences...people joined the Party thereafter and continued this work.....
The Party does from time to time issue Fiqhi material when it deems the ummah is in need of it but the Partys work is to convince the ummah to live by Islam under the State and carry Islam to the world via Jihad and dawa...this in essence means to re-ignite Islam in the people including tackling the declined thoughts and false propaganda spread by the enemies of Islam...

When the Party adopts its opinions it takes them from scholars within the Party and outside as long as they conform the Partys principles of adoption.

The Amir is competent to adopt and best suited to lead the Party in his capacity as Amir.

As for someone calling him an agent then this an accusation and Islam demands the one who makes it to furnish his proof othewise such a person would be guilty of slander and slur and this is a crime in Islam.

This is what you failed to differentiate between. Accusation based on whim and being a witness to something i.e the existence of the Amir via the transmission of many trust worthy shabab who have met him.

As for verifying his credentials..we don't need your verification as it is evident that your understanding is blurred by hatred and a cultish desire to inflict harm on the Party.

the party is not going to establish khilafah because it is upon the way of the mu'tazilah and not upon the methodology of Nabuwwah(saw)

I'm not in a cult, rather the one who follows the unknown is more deserving of that status......you (Hizb-ul-Sheesha)

the issue of the agent is this. You only trust the shabab because they are shabab, nothing else (hizbiyyah) now because you have no other way of verifying who your amir is or if he even exists (because if it ain't tawatur you can't be sure can you mate!) you are the one who can't decisively negate that he might be an agent. You have no fist hand information for this. Now if you don't have this information, how do you expect the ummah to accept a party run by someone unknown to them and even the members of the party? this my friend is the real elements of a cult which is going to self-destruct with more power struggles ove the "thought"....probably over who gets to smoke the sheesha first....

Accusatons based upon a whim? How many members of HT have been at the top and then gone on to work with the kuffar?

you menton accussations basd upon a whim.....but your conviction your amir is who he is, is also the same.....no one has accussed anyone of anything (i.e. being an agent) rather the ability to dispell it is hard for the shabab and harder for the ummah.

anyway thanks for your 2p's worth....now there are other threads to answer to ....so don't run away just yet

jund-ullah hit it on the spot. The Party i.e. Nabhani(ALLAH Forgive him) is dead now. and now who is the party?

[sultanmuradII]

you think so?

so what about the shubuhat?

Ofcourse I think so, that is why I said so.

Also the what-hat? I don't speak arabic (working on it, but it's not easy for me).

"Hizb-ul-Sheesha" what is that?

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

Ofcourse I think so, that is why I said so.

Also the what-hat? I don't speak arabic (working on it, but it's not easy for me).

"Hizb-ul-Sheesha" what is that?

Shubuhat = suspicions, doubts

Hizb-ul-Sheesha - The party of hubbly bubbly