Building a Child's Self Esteem [Archive]

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Umm Ahmed

4th August 2006, 09:42 PM

Building a Child's Self Esteem

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"O ye people! Worship your guardian Lord, Who created you and those before you that ye may become righteous." Quran 2:21

Family Life Question: "Children frequently express feelings of not being liked by other children and not being able to do things before making an attempt. What are some ways to encourage self-confidence in children?"

Dear Parents:
Children who are morally and spiritually conscience develop a sense of their own self-worth. Helping our children develop healthy self-esteem is one of the most important things that parents can do for them; it is the foundation of their faith and commitment to Allah. Children need to be assured that they are a special gift from Allah and they are to dedicate their talents and resources to Thy service--this gives them value, purpose and direction for life. Through every phase of a child's development, they need provisions for moral and spiritual enrichment that encourages them to truly reverence Allah and to thus value the beauty in themselves.

"We have indeed created man in the best of molds." (Quran 95:4) There is no fault in Allah's creation; to man, Allah gave the purest and best nature. Our duty is to preserve, and nurture the distinctive character that Allah has created.

Healthy feelings about oneself or high self-esteem is best started in the home, and this needs to be cultivated in our children from birth. Thankfulness for who Allah has made us to be is based primarily on how our parents or guardians view us. Children mirror others' perception of them; they measure themselves by the standards set by those shaping their lives. A child needs our unconditional love. While we may show disapproval of wrong actions, the child still needs to feel cherished. We are guided: "...truly no one despairs of Allah's soothing Mercy, except those who have no faith." (Quran 12:87) Our unconditional compassion for our children will promote and encourage their faith in Allah and instill the thinking that "I am lovable, I am confident."

Persons with healthy self-esteem are more capable of making decisions; they exhibit thankfulness for their accomplishments, are willing to take responsibility, and are better able to cope with stressful situations. They meet and feel enthusiastic about challenges. Often a student with a high IQ and low self-esteem will do poorly in school, while a child with average ability and high self-esteem will excel. The thinking that is cultivated in a person in the early years affects his entire life.

The National PTA along with the March of Dimes has developed a program called "Parenting: The Underdeveloped Skill" to help parents learn to better communicate with their children and to nurture their youngster's self-esteem. Some steps they outline include: "

1. Showing kids how to communicate their feelings, openly and honestly, is a good place for parents to start. Children need to know that even anger and fear are to be appropriately expressed rather than bottled up. Because children learn by example, parents must let their feelings be known.

2. Listening--truly listening to children is a second key to developing good self-esteem. Having parents listen not only enhances children's good feeling about themselves, it also teaches them...(to be caring).

3. Teaching how to get along with others through negotiation and compromise is important.

4. Establishing fair, consistent discipline is one of the other building blocks of good self-esteem.

5. Giving children responsibilities--tasks that are meaningful and 'do-able' and that they can be accountable for also builds self-esteem.

6. Permitting children to make decisions (even an occasional wrong one) helps them learn good judgment.

7. Keeping a sense of humor is important. It can work wonders and helps children keep perspective on what is important.

8. Treating children lovingly, with both respect and courtesy, helps children learn that they are beautiful and worthwhile people. Parents, treat them the way you yourself want to be treated." The Parenting: The Underdeveloped Skill kit is available through the Chicago office of the National PTA.

When we build a warm and friendly relationship with our children, we establish the best opportunity for imparting strong moral and spiritual values to them the key to high self-esteem.

Lex

15th July 2007, 03:37 PM

MosDef

15th July 2007, 04:02 PM

"Think not that I have come to send peace on earth, I have come not to send peace, but a sword."

Gospel of Matthew ‘Isa ibn Maryam, Jesus the son of Mary

aburasheed

15th July 2007, 04:34 PM

Hi Lex,

It's worth the time responding to a troll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll). If you're really sincere to start an intelligent discussion. You can start by giving us all your evidences for the things that you've said.

MosDef

15th July 2007, 04:38 PM

Akhee aburasheed thanks for that. Troll... i never knew that lol.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/DoNotFeedTroll.svg/150px-DoNotFeedTroll.svg.png

Dont feed the Troll :)

Internet terminology. I must catch up!

Lex

15th July 2007, 07:43 PM

Is it evidence you seek?

"And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear. But Jesus answered, 'No more of this!' And he touched the man's ear and healed him." Luke 22:50-51

"Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." Ephesians 6:17

Did Mohammad heal anyone that had been smitten by a sword? Wasn't he rather the one who was pleased to use the sword against the Jews of Banu Quraiza, for example?

Quran-33:25- “Allah turned back the unbelievers [Meccans and their allies] in a state of rage, having not won any good, and Allah spared the believers battle. Allah is, indeed, Strong and Mighty.”

Quran-33:26- “And He brought those of the People of the Book [Jewish people of Banu Qurayza] who supported them from their fortresses and cast terror into their hearts, some of them you slew (beheaded) and some you took prisoners (captive)”

Quran-33:27- “And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, and of a land which ye had not frequented (before). And Allah has power over all things.” [Merciful Allah asked Prophet Muhammad to confiscate entire properties of surrendered Jews]

Quran-8:67—“It is not fitting for an Apostle that he should have prisoners of war until He thoroughly subdued the land….” (Allah insisting Prophet to kill all the prisoners, and should not keep any surrendered prisoners alive until He (Prophet) occupied entire Arabia.”

Quran-8:17—It is not ye who Slew them; it is God; when thou threwest a handful of dust, it was not Thy act, but God’s…..” (Allah said, the killing of surrendered soldiers were done by the wish of Allah)

From: Islam Watch (http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/Muhammad-Killing-Jews-of-Banu-Quraiza-and-Khaybar.htm)

aburasheed, the rest of the evidence that you need, such as for the crucification and death of Jesus and his subsequent resurrection is in the 4 gospels. It naturally would not be in the Qur'an, Mohammed's dictation that was recorded a good century after he spoke of his "visions" and "voices" that no one else saw or heard.

BTW, the Gospel of Barnabbas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Barnabas) won't cut it with orthodox Christianity, and the Gospel of Thomas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas)is rejected completely as so much gnostic gobbledygook. Other legends and folklorish tales are included in the Qur'an (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legends_and_the_Qur'an), though one MIGHT be tempted to believe that everything in the Qur'an is unalterably true, straight from the very mouth of Allah, as it were. Yeah, right.

Lex

15th July 2007, 07:56 PM

From http://debate.org.uk/topics/theo/qur-jes.htm

[The Jesus of the Qur'an did not die on the cross. Surah 4:157,158 says,

"And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus Son of Mary, Allah's messenger--They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! Those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain, But Allah took him up unto Himself...."

The normal explanation is that God put someone else on the cross and took Jesus to heaven. Judas is probably the most suggested person for who died in Jesus' place. No historical evidence is given. It is believed because the Qur'an states it as the truth.]

That is, it is true because Mohammad said it is true, and for NO OTHER REASON.

Umm Ahmed

15th July 2007, 07:59 PM

Your entiled to your opinion but thats all it is , If you dont believe in the Quran then thats your loss , not ours. You should now use your brain during this discussion and we pray for your guidence InshaAllaah.
Our beloved phrophet brought what all the previous phrophets brought and thats to worship one God without partners sons or holy spirits.

Battles are fought over black oil , so why should there be no battles over a religion thats worth fighting for.

Please read the story of the battle with the Jews at the following link. http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Books/SM_tsn/ch4s9.html

Suhaib Jobst

15th July 2007, 08:00 PM

Rather than attacking Islam, you should examine your own Bible:

Matthew 10:34, Isa came with the sword, not to bring peace

Luke 12:49, Isa came to cast fire upon the earth, to divide families

Luke 14:26, One can only be a disciple if they hate their family members

Luke 19:27, Isa commands his followers to smite their enemies before him

Umm Ahmed

15th July 2007, 08:02 PM

From http://debate.org.uk/topics/theo/qur-jes.htm.

Are you going to be using debates from the above site ?

: ( thats sad.

Oh and one more question, why did you decide to start a discussion on our religion, on a thread on raising a childs self esteem ?

MosDef

15th July 2007, 08:15 PM

"You shall destroy all the peoples ... showing them no pity." (7: 16)

"... All the people present there shall serve you as forced labour." (20:12)

"... You shall put all its males to the sword. You may, however, take as your booty the women, the children, the livestock, and everything in the town -- all its spoil -- and enjoy the use of the spoil of your enemy which the LORD your God gives you." (20:14-15)

"... You shall not let a soul remain alive." (20:17)

All these quotations are from the part of the Old Testament. Its not our fault you guys chop and change your holy books. What a shameful situation.

Mu'awiya

15th July 2007, 08:31 PM

Who is Mohammad that he would order the murder of Jews who refused to accept him as a prophet? Did Isa ever do such a thing, or command his followers to kill the Jews who rejected him?

Isa was a man of peace who performed many miracles of healing and deliverance from diabolical bondage, the four Christian gospels attest, while Mohammed performed no miracles at all, but his testimony is superior to Isa's!?

There were 3 tribes in Medina, the Muslims allowed them to remain there with a peace treaty as citizens of the town.

Each tribe did something which lead to treason or letting down their side of the covenant: 1) Banu Qaynuqa' - there was a Muslim woman who went to the Jewish Jewellery trading part of town, a mischievous man [a Jewish owner of the shop] went behind her while she was sitting down and placed a hook below her clothes. As soon as she got up, the hook lifted her clothes - this exposed her body. She screamed for help, a Muslim man rushed to help but he was killed by the Jews.

When the Prophet (peace be upon him) was informed, he layed siege to them. And they were ordered to leave the town. They broke their side of the covenant.

2) Banu Nadheer - The Muslims had agreed with the Jews, that if there was ever a war within Medina - both parties would support each other. The Prophet (peace be upon him) went to get some money from the Jewish party, they allowed him to rest under a tree. When he was resting, they realised it was an easy chance to murder him [you as a christian should know that they even attempted to kill Jesus (peace be upon him), and accomplished their murder of John the Baptist [Yahya] (peace be upon him) - yet you support the evil ways!?]

Angel Gabriel informed him (peace be upon him) that there was someone who had a boulder/heavy rock, ready to throw it on the Messenger of Allaah. He got up away from the tree, and walked away back to the Muslim part of Medina.

These people were expelled from Medina since they were united in trying to kill him. They broke their side of the covenant.

3) Banu Quraydha - The reason why Banu Quraydha was executed was because they commited treason, when 10,000 strong [From Quraysh, Ghattafaan etc.] were fighting the muslims (who ere about 3000 in number), the Banu Quraydha who had a treaty with the muslims in Medina broke it off at that moment in time, and were supplying the enemy while planning on killing the muslim women, children and elders.

By the will of Allaah, Allaah provided a way out for the muslims by sending a strong wind which lead to the tribes of Quraysh and Ghattafaan to leave the siege which they had started themselves around Medina. It lasted for about a month. Then who was left? It was the tribe of Banu Quraydha themselves, as they lived in Medina. They had commited treason, hence the punishment should be equal to the crime.

What happens next?

The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) asks Sa'ad ibn Mu'aadh to give judgement to the Banu Quraydha [who used to be former allies with Sa'ad ibn Mu'aadh when islaan hadn't entered Medina] - the Jews of Banu Quraydah agreed that Sa'ad could be the one to make the ruling because they felt he would be flexible with them due to the fact that they were allies in the past. However, Sa'ad ibn Mu'aadh ordered that their men be executed and their women and children be enslaved. Why? Because that was the same intention of the Banu Quraydha themselves. So the punishment is equal to the crime.

And guess what? They broke their side of the covenant.

Also please refer to these links;

Non-Muslims in the Islamic Society - their rights (http://www.load-islam.com/classified_list.php?topic_id=2&classified_id=16)

Commonly Misquoted Verses and Narrations (http://www.load-islam.com/artical_det.php?artical_id=414&section=wel_islam&subsection=Misconceptions)

The Islamic position on Slavery: A refutation of doubts (http://www.load-islam.com/artical_det.php?artical_id=815&section=wel_islam&subsection=Misconceptions)

Isa forgave his enemies from the Cross, the Christian record states, but then, Muslims don't believe that Isa was even crucified! Why not? Because Mohammad said, some 6 centuries after the fact, that it never happened, thereby making Isa and/or his biographers liars! Well then, how did Mohammed know the REAL truth? "Gabriel" told him, he said! But of course!

Muhammad (peace be upon him) never spoke a lie in his life - his enemies even recognised this. So he would never say a lie about God.

Today, such people are treated with anti-psychotic medications, and the more violent among them are locked up as dangers to themselves and others...

hm.. not really a good tactic there. If you really wna see what Islaam is, check;

http://beconvinced.com

instead. :)

And Allaah knows best.

Peace.

Lex

15th July 2007, 08:35 PM

I intended to post a reply to this thread: Why The Jews Were Cursed? (http://islamicawakening.com/viewarticle.php?articleID=636), but the Comment on this article (http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=1183) button was linked to this thread. I did not mean to "hijack" this thread, but I didn't know where else to respond.

While I happen to agree with the website owner's conclusion that the Qur'an stands or falls on the word of one man whose "revelations" were entirely his own, my interest was the quote from the Qur'an, Surah 4:157,158, cited as a response to aburasheed who demanded "all" evidence to substantiate my assertions. In the Qur'an Jesus doesn't die on the cross, but in the Gospel accounts, written 6 centuries earlier, Jesus predicted both his death on the cross and his resurrection, but of course that CAN'T be true, because Mohammad said otherwise, and he is Allah's prophet, right? It's a circular argument that proves NOTHING.

"Let us make man in out own image." Gen 1:26 is worth plumbing. God has partners? Not exactly. See John 1:1-18 (http://www.soundofgrace.com/piper2/piper2001/12-23-01.htm)

Mu'awiya

15th July 2007, 08:51 PM

Oh yeah, you said about the Miracles thing. I'll quote some Prophecies which were Prophecised over 1400 years ago by the Messenger of God, and we'll see how amazing it is that they actually took place;

Prophecies:

The Qur’an gave the news that the dead body of Pharaoh would one day be discovered.

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/1686/a02101dy2.jpg

3. In ancient Egypt, Pharaoh used to torture the Children of Israel. God sent Moses to him with the mission of inviting him to believe in One God and allow the Israelites to leave Egypt with Moses. Pharaoh refused and the struggle between them continued for a long time. However, one night Moses succeeded in marching towards the frontier with his people but Pharaoh, becoming aware of his attempt, set out to follow him. When Moses reached the Red Sea, he touched it with his staff, and a furrow opened across the sea. Pharaoh attempted to follow him, but was engulfed with his legions. While narrating this event, The Qur’an makes a very interesting prediction:

Today We shall preserve your body that you may be a sign to those after you: although most men give no heed to Our signs. (Yunus, 10.92)
The dead body of Pharaoh was later found floating on the Western shores of the Sinai peninsula. The native residents can still show you to this land, which is now known as Jabal Firawn (Hill of Pharaoh). A few miles from this hill is a hot spring called Hammam Firawn (the Bath of Pharaoh).

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While in Makka under great tortures, the Prophet predicted the future victories of Islam

2. Bukhari and Abu Dawud quote Habbab ibn Arat, who said:

Once, during the days of trouble and torture in Makka, I went to God’s Messenger, who was sitting in the shade of the Ka‘ba. I was still a slave in the hands of the Makkans then. They inflicted on me severe tortures. Unable to endure those tortures any more, I requested God’s Messenger to pray to God for help and salvation. But he turned towards me and said:

By God, previous communities had to endure more pitiless tortures. Some of them were made to lie in ditches and cut in two with saws but this did not make them forsake their faith. They were skinned alive but they never became weak against the enemy. Surely God will perfect this religion, but you display undue haste. A day will come when a woman will travel alone by herself from San’a to Hadramawt fearing nothing but wild beasts. However, you show impatience.

Habbab concluded:

By God, what God’s Messenger predicted that day, have all come true. I have personally witnessed it all.

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The amazing thing about this hadith [Prophetic saying] is that at this time, the muslims were being tortured severely simply because they said our Lord is God Alone in Makkah. They were helpless/weak, yet the Messenger of God, Muhammad (peace be upon him) was already promising that there would be people travelling in Yemen without fear of anyone besides wild beasts.

What's surprising is that Islaam wasn't even established within the city of Makkah itself, yet the Messenger of God, Muhammad (peace be upon him) had promised that it would spread all the way to Yemen! And within a few decades this was exactly the case, Islaam had settled within Yemen, aswell as Palestine, Lebanon, Jordan etc. And the companions of God's Messenger themselves witnessed the peace and justice which came through it.
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The Prophet predicted the Mongol invasion

5. The Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, predicted the Mongol invasion, saying:

The Hour will not come before you fight against a people with red faces, small, slant eyes and flat noses. They wear hairy leather boots. [Recorded in Abu Dawud]

If we look in Islamic history, many centuries after the final Messenger of God, Muhammad (peace be upon him) passed away. During the rule of the Bani Abbaas [the Abbasid Dynasty] - there was a great war against the Mongols, the Mongols who destroyed Iraq (the centry of the Islamic Empire) and caused much bloodshed. To the extent that some people thought they were the Gog and Magog! [Ya'juj wa Ma'jooj.]

The shocking thing is that after these people caused much bloodshed and killed thousands upon thousands, maybe even millions! They realised the beauty of Islaam and how it is the only true religion accepted in the sight of God, so they accepted Islaam, and submitted to God.

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The Prophet predicted the forms of government after him

"The Prophethood will last among you for as long as Allah (God) wills, then Allah would take it away. Then it will be (followed by) a Khilafah [caliphate] Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood. It will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah would take it away. Afterwards there will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes. Afterwards, there will be biting oppression, and it will last for as long as Allah wishes, then He will lift it if He wishes. Then there will be a Khilafah Rashida according to the ways of the Prophethood," then he kept silent.

[recorded in Musnad Imam Ahmad (v/273)]

We're under the underlined stage, and all the events before it have occured in our islamic history. Inshaa'Allaah (God willing) the rest of the prophecy will soon come into effect.

According to the hadith, the prophet (peace be upon him) will be followed by rightly guided caliphs (Abu Baker, Omar, Uthman and Ali) and after those caliphs will come hereditary leadership (the other Caliphs) and after that will come tyrannical rule (today) and after that will come a rightly guided caliphs yet again inshaa'Allaah. [God willing] And we hope that justice will be applied once again.

Safinah narrated that the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "The Caliphate of Prophecy will last thirty years; then Allah will give the rule of His Kingdom to whomever He wills." (narrated by Abu-Dawood). This was indeed the length of the Caliphate after the death of the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). After that, the rule of monarchies replaced the rule of the Caliphate.

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The Prophet predicted the conquest of Istanbul

13. Again, according to an authentic narration, the Prophet, upon him be peace and blessings, declared:

Surely, Constantinople (Istanbul) will be conquered (by my community); how blessed the commander who will conquer it, and how blessed his army.

He thus foretold the conquest of Istanbul by Muslims, and indicated the high spiritual rank of Sultan Mehmed, the Conqueror, and the virtuousness of his army. What he foretold took place centuries later.

Once Sultan Mehmad opened up Istanbul - he established so much justice there and removed the oppression of the Byzantinian Romans. This was done in 1453, yet the Prophecy was made around 800 years before this by God's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him.)

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The Prophet mentioned that there would be signs forewarning the approach of the last day.

a. The barefooted bedouins competing in building tall buildings. Today we find in the Arabian Peninsula, the Arabs who used to be impoverished herders of camels and sheep, are competing in building the tallest tower blocks:

http://www.tallest-building-in-the-world.com/

b. The Mosques would be like palaces. This is clearly the case, even though the Prophet ordered simplicity, the mosques have become more and more fantastic, with golden domes, marbled floors, lavish carpets and chandeliers.

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/6450/mosquefv4.jpg

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/3841/p50pi4.jpg

http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/8056/41738thebeautifulmosquekd7.jpg

c. Disappearance of trustworthiness, so much so that one would only be able to say: "I know a trustworthy person in such-and-such town."

d. The increase in killing, so that the one who kills does not know why he killed, and the one killed does not know why he was killed. I was recently sent an article from the Washington Post about the rise of gang warfare. Part of the initiation ceremony was for a new gang member(some times as young as eleven) to shoot someone. The second highest cause of death from fifteen to thirty five in the US are gun related. The massacre of civilians in the Vietnam War by American troops who had little idea why they were there, and the increase of such conflicts, is further illustration of the fulfillment of this prophecy. As are the rise of insane mass murders, of children killing children, such as Jamie Bulger.

e. The increase of the use of riba (usury/interest) so that no one will able to escape being tainted by it. This clearly the state of the world economy today.

f. The enemies of the Muslims dividing the Muslim's wealth and lands between them, the Muslims abandoning jihad, and concerning themselves only with the worldly matters. We have already mentioned this.

g. The increase of literacy.

h. The decrease of religious knowledge due to the disappearance of scholars.

i. The increase of musical instruments, and the Muslims making it lawful even though the Prophet has forbidden them.

j. The increase of sexual promiscuity, and new diseases that people had not herd of before spreading amongst them as a consequence of that. This is clear, with the arrival of AIDS, and other previously unheard of viruses.

k. Appearance of Dajjals (liars/imposters), each claiming to be a Messenger of Allah, while Muhammad is the last messenger. There are numerous examples of this, starting with Musailima, who arose in the time of the Prophet, just before his death, to more modern liars such as Elija Muhammad, founder of the Black American racist movement "The Nation of Islam", and India's pretender Gulam Ahmed of Qadian.

l. Nakedness of women while still being dressed and people copulating like donkeys in public. Obviously a direct reference to soft and hard-core pornography, which has become a dark stain on our society in recent times.

m. The drinking of wine becoming common, and the Muslims making it lawful by calling it another name.

n. Shouting in the mosques and lack of unity.

o. The worst and most ignorant will become leaders and they will be oppressors. Bill Clinton, saddam Hussain and majority of worlds Leaders are prime examples.

p. A man will obey his wife and disobey his mother, and treat his friends kindly and shun his father.

q. Men will wear silk and gold, and the making of it lawful by the Muslims even though the Prophet had forbidden it for the men of his 'Ummah (nation).

r. People will abandon the religion for a small worldly gain, and keeping to the religion will be like holding two hot coals (due to the fact that people oppose religion so much, and class those who submit themselves to God as 'extremists' or 'fundamentalists' etc.)

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The Prophecy on the Different Sects which would Arise

The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) said:

"Indeed those from before you from the People of the Book (christians and jews) divided into seventy-two groups. And, indeed, this group (Muslims) will divide into seventy-three. Seventy-two groups will be in the Hellfire and one of them will be in Paradise. And it is the Jamaa'ah (group)."(Recorded in Ahmad)

And in another narration, he (peace be upon him) said: "Everyone of them in the Hellfire, except for one group that which I and my companions are upon." (Recorded in Tirmidhi)

So those who follow the final Messenger of God, Muhammad peace be upon him and the way of his companions will be part of the saved group - since they had the best teachings and the best understanding of God's final revelation - the Qur'an.

-------------------------------------------------

Conclusion

There are much much more Prophecies, and if i have the time i hope to post more up insha Allaah [God willing.]

How is it that even though the Prophet made all these prophecies, Christian missionaries are still trying to reject the prophetic mission of Muhammad (peace be upon him). Ever since the advent of Islam, Christians have been unable to challenge the teachings of Islam, therefore they have had to try and resort to lies and distortions of the Holy Qur’an in order to support their claims. They have fabricated lies against the Prophet, claimed he was epileptic, claimed he was conspiring with Jew/Christians and some have even claimed he was the devil in disguise. We would like to ask those so-called missionaries, aren’t these the exact claims the Jews made against the prophet Jesus (pbuh). However, they seem to be in a state of ignorance fuelled by pride and prejudice, adamant of repeating the same mistakes the Jews made by refusing to open their hearts to the beauty of Islam.

As Allah/God Almighty informs us in His final testament, the Qur’an:

[I]And say: "Truth has (now) arrived, and Falsehood perished: for Falsehood is (by its nature) bound to perish." (Qur’an 17.81)

And Allah knows best!

Peace.

Lex

15th July 2007, 08:58 PM

MosDef,

You need to talk to the Jews about the "damning" texts you cite. I'm not bound by them as a Christian under a different covenant, and guess what? It was the marching orders of these same OT Jews who inspired Mohammad to deal as he did with the Banu Quraiza Jews!

Mu'awiya,

The problem, as I see it, is this. Mohammad would have been in no position to deal as he did with the Jews had he not first been led to believe that he was in fact a prophet, sent of God, and that he had any authority at all to act in God's name against those who rejected him for ANY reason.

As a Christian I know that Jesus died on the Cross, and that this was his intention as the Passover Lamb of God, to make blood atonement for sinners, something that Islam rejects.

You wrote, "Muhammad (peace be upon him) never spoke a lie in his life - his enemies even recognised this. So he would never say a lie about God."

What is it to tell a lie and no one recognizes it as a lie? The Christian Scriptures describe Satan as a liar and the father of lies. Would it be obvious to the hearer? Hell no! No one else heard what Mohammad "heard" from "Gabriel," but this much I do know. Mohammad's Gabriel and the Gabriel whose words are recorded in the Gospel of Luke (http://www.zondervanbiblesearch.com/ResultsPassage.aspx?Passage=Luke+1) flatly contradict each other. Both Gabriel's can't be telling the truth. I prefer the former, you the latter. It is entirely possible that Mohammad believed that every word that he "heard" from "Gabriel" was true, but psychosis can be like that, delusions of grandeur included.

Lex

15th July 2007, 09:12 PM

As for Mohammed's prophecies, Edgar Cayce and Nostradamus were also "prophets," as far as that goes. How amazingly accurate they were and have been! How could they know such things, even centuries in advance!? One might even think they heard directly from God...

You lament, "The increase of musical instruments, and the Muslims making it lawful even though the Prophet has forbidden them." What on earth is wrong with musical instruments? David the Jewish King and prophet played the lyre. Was he in sin? What about Bach and Beethoven (well, besides being infidels)

Lex

15th July 2007, 09:26 PM

In the interest of returning to mosque simplicity as Mohammed commanded, allow me to suggest that the Muslim authorities in Istanbul return the Hagia Sophia to the Christians from whom they took it as a spoil of war in 1453.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Aya_sofya.jpg/300px-Aya_sofya.jpg

Mu'awiya

15th July 2007, 10:41 PM

Okay then Lex, let's use your logic.

Why do you believe in Christianity? Were you alive while witnessing the miracles of Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him)? Since you weren't, then what makes you so sure that it really happened? Are there any pictures of them miracles taking place as first hand evidence?

Okay, now to the second point - since christians believe that Jesus is 'god' on earth. Do you believe that 'god dies'? Since that's the core belief within christianity right? Do you also believe that god is 'placed within a grave'? Since that is also a belief within christianity.

Believing that Jesus son of Mary is a human and a Messenger of God makes much more sense, infact - to say that god 'dies' is total blasphemy, to say that god is 'humiliated' by his own creation is blasphemy. To say that god was within a womb feeding off his mother is blasphemy.

There are verses from the Bible which state that satan came upto Jesus son of Mary, and showed him the world, maybe he would get attracted to it. Do you think that satan is capable of tempting God? Then why is it stated like that? Saying that Jesus son of Mary is a human and an honorable Messenger being tempted by the deceptive satan can however be logical. Jesus son of Mary being killed as a human can be logical, although we don't believe it. This actually shows how much love Allaah had for Jesus, that he never even had to be killed. Since he is the Messiah, and he will return near the end times.

Do you believe in the earlier mentioned points blindly? Even though they're totally illogical? You may argue that God can do anything, but God only does what befits His Majesty. He doesn't need to make the number 3 into 1, since 3 is 3 and 1 is 1. God does not die. God does not have a mother or father. God does not be born. God does not eat food and drink. Your God is 1 God. And there is none worthy of worship except Him.

He is self sufficient, He is the Ever Living, and never dies. He is the Just, and every soul which He has created will return to Him on the Day of Judgement of which there is no doubt. On that day - the truthful will benefit from their truth, but those who belied the truth, and rejected God and His Messengers' - for them, they will be punished for their evils. Those who believed in Allaah, all His Messengers' and did good - they will be rewarded in Paradise, in the Mercy of their Lord.

Peace.

abu anas

15th July 2007, 10:56 PM

Bismillaah Al-Rahmaan Al-Rahiim,

You know what... I think what im about to do next is just backfire all your silly accusations, since you don't even know your own book.

You Said:
Who is Mohammad that he would order the murder of Jews who refused to accept him as a prophet?
My Response:
Now you are most likely a christian who believes that Jesus is God ( I doubt that you are a unitarian ). Now if Jesus is God, that automatically makes him the same God of the Old Testament. So let's have a look at some Old Testament verses, shall we?

Deuteronomy 13:6-18
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; 7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth; 8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: 9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. 10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

Right.. So much for tolerance of other religions from your God-Man Jesus?

You Said:
Did Isa ever do such a thing, or command his followers to kill the Jews who rejected him?
My Response:
I'm really sorry that I have to expose more of the atrocities that your God-Man Jesus committed.. Let's go on..

Deuteronomy 2:32-37
And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have begun to give Sihon and his land before thee: begin to possess, that thou mayest inherit his land. 32 Then Sihon came out against us, he and all his people, to fight at Jahaz. 33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain. 36 From Aroer, which is by the brink of the river of Arnon, and from the city that is by the river, even unto Gilead, there was not one city too strong for us: the LORD our God delivered all unto us

So as you can see, you have no clue what you are talking about. and perhaps you can explain to us muslims why is it that your Jesus, commands the killing of children? WHAT ON EARTH DID LITTLE KIDS AND BABIES HAVE TO DO WITH THE EVILS ACTS THEIR PARENTS COMMITTED? "of every city, we left none to remain". Wow, I truly love the mercy of your Jesus.. You see, at least our beloved prophet forbade the killing of women and children during the time of war.

Oh, and this isnt the only verse where your God allows the killing of little kids during war.. let me give you a couple of more since you don't even know your own bible.

Ezekiel 9:5-7
5 As I listened, he said to the others, "Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were in front of the temple. 7 Then he said to them, "Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!" So they went out and began killing throughout the city.

You Said:
Isa was a man of peace who performed many miracles of healing and deliverance from diabolical bondage, the four Christian gospels attest, while Mohammed performed no miracles at all, but his testimony is superior to Isa's!?
My Response:
Nope, Jesus wasnt a man of peace as I have demonstrated. Now as for Jesus performing miracles.. Once again you are demonstrating how you have no knowledge of what the bible teaches.. So let me teach you,

According to the Gospel of John 13:3: Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God

Also: Gospel of John 17:6-8: 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that ALL THINGS whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me

And finally: The Book of Acts 2:22: Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

So according to your own book Jesus didn't do any miracles of his own, they were all from the Father. And according to the book of acts 2:22, GOD did them through him.. So big deal if Jesus performed any miracles.. Since they were all from the father.

As for your second statement, It's funny how you are using, "Miracles" as the criteria for prophethood.. Let's see what Jesus had to say according to your own books:

According to the Gospel of Luke 7:28: For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

So are you going to call Jesus now a liar for calling John the Baptist the greatest prophet? Can you please show me John the Baptist performed miracles? So are you going to reject John the Baptist now?

As for Muhammad(saw) performing miracles, it is quite clear that you have been educated by Shaykh-Google Dot Com. Here is a link of many miracles that Muhammed(saw) performed (Ofcourse Allah'swt gave them to him)

http://muslim-responses.com/Prophet_Muhammads_Miracles/Prophet_Muhammads_Miracles_

http://muslim-responses.com/Miracles_of_prophet_Muhammad/Miracles_of_prophet_Muhammad_

You Said:
Isa forgave his enemies from the Cross, the Christian record states, but then, Muslims don't believe that Isa was even crucified! Why not? Because Mohammad said, some 6 centuries after the fact, that it never happened, thereby making Isa and/or his biographers liars! Well then, how did Mohammed know the REAL truth? "Gabriel" told him, he said! But of course!
My Response:
Yes, the 4 biographies do contain alot of mess in them. You don't even know which verses are true and false. Do you want me to provide from your own christian sources as evidence to that?

You Said:
Today, such people are treated with anti-psychotic medications, and the more violent among them are locked up as dangers to themselves and others...
My Response:
What on earth does this statement have to do with what we were discussing? My advice to you for now is that you go read your bible properly so I won't have to humiliate you so bad.

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This concludes part 1. Let us move on to his next post

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You Said:
Is it evidence you seek?

"And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear. But Jesus answered, 'No more of this!' And he touched the man's ear and healed him." Luke 22:50-51

"Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." Ephesians 6:17

Did Mohammad heal anyone that had been smitten by a sword? Wasn't he rather the one who was pleased to use the sword against the Jews of Banu Quraiza, for example?
My Response:
One again, thank you for exposing yourself and shaykh-google. Here is an example of where Muhammad(saw) replaces Qatada's eye

Al-Bayhaqi stated, in the Dalail (The Signs), "Abu Sad al-Malini informed us quoting Abu Ahmed b. Adi, quoting Abu Yala, quoting Yahya al-Himmant, quoting Abd al-Aziz b. Sulayman b. al-Ghasil, from Asim b. Umar b. Qatada, from his father, from his grandfather Qatada b. al-Numan, that his eye was wounded at Badr and that its pupil came down on his cheekbone. They were about to slice it off, but asked the Messenger of God (SAAS) who said they should not do this. He then said a prayer for him, covering his cheek with his palm. And later you could not tell which of his eyes had been struck!"
Source: Ibn Kathirs The Life of the Prophet Muhammad, Al-sira Al-Nabawiyya, volume 2'

You Said:
Quran-33:25- “Allah turned back the unbelievers [Meccans and their allies] in a state of rage, having not won any good, and Allah spared the believers battle. Allah is, indeed, Strong and Mighty.”

Quran-33:26- “And He brought those of the People of the Book [Jewish people of Banu Qurayza] who supported them from their fortresses and cast terror into their hearts, some of them you slew (beheaded) and some you took prisoners (captive)”

Quran-33:27- “And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, and of a land which ye had not frequented (before). And Allah has power over all things.” [Merciful Allah asked Prophet Muhammad to confiscate entire properties of surrendered Jews]

Quran-8:67—“It is not fitting for an Apostle that he should have prisoners of war until He thoroughly subdued the land….” (Allah insisting Prophet to kill all the prisoners, and should not keep any surrendered prisoners alive until He (Prophet) occupied entire Arabia.”

Quran-8:17—It is not ye who Slew them; it is God; when thou threwest a handful of dust, it was not Thy act, but God’s…..” (Allah said, the killing of surrendered soldiers were done by the wish of Allah)

From: Islam Watch

My Response:
Right.. Same old "jihad this jihad that" arguments.. You can, a) go through tafsir regarding them to see how these verses are misquoted a lot www.tafsir.com b) most of these dumb allegations refuted here www.answering-christianity.com and www.muslim-responses.com c) read the verse before it and after it.

You Said:
aburasheed, the rest of the evidence that you need, such as for the crucification and death of Jesus and his subsequent resurrection is in the 4 gospels. It naturally would not be in the Qur'an, Mohammed's dictation that was recorded a good century after he spoke of his "visions" and "voices" that no one else saw or heard.
My Response:
Wow.. We can apply the same logic you are using and throw out PAUL OF TARSUS from your new testament, since he claimed to have met Jesus on his way to Damascus.. Ouch, backfiring your dumb statements sure is fun, saves me time from having to just deal with the issue instead.

You Said:
BTW, the Gospel of Barnabbas won't cut it with orthodox Christianity, and the Gospel of Thomas is rejected completely as so much gnostic gobbledygook.
My Response:
Yes, you guys throw out the books which refute your silly beliefs. Do you honestly want me to start talking about the council of Nicea?

You Said:
Other legends and folklorish tales are included in the Qur'an, though one MIGHT be tempted to believe that everything in the Qur'an is unalterably true, straight from the very mouth of Allah, as it were. Yeah, right.
My Response:
Legends and folklorish? Have you heard of Mithra? He came before Christ. Born of a virgin on December 25th, had 12 disciples, performed miracles, died and later resurrected after THREE days.. Ouch, does this story sound similar ;).

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This concludes part 2. Let us move on to his next post

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You Said:
From http://debate.org.uk/topics/theo/qur-jes.htm

[The Jesus of the Qur'an did not die on the cross. Surah 4:157,158 says,

"And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus Son of Mary, Allah's messenger--They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! Those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain, But Allah took him up unto Himself...."

The normal explanation is that God put someone else on the cross and took Jesus to heaven. Judas is probably the most suggested person for who died in Jesus' place. No historical evidence is given. It is believed because the Qur'an states it as the truth.]

That is, it is true because Mohammad said it is true, and for NO OTHER REASON.
My Response:
Wow? What kind of argument is that? I can say the same about Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul of Tarsus, etc... WEAK ARGUMENT.

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This concludes part 3.

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Lex

16th July 2007, 02:39 AM

You asked me, "Why do you believe in Christianity?" Because Jesus was merciful to sinners, the record of his life attests. Sure, I take the word of others who may have been writing from third hand knowledge about the events of Jesus' life, but that's the way of it for any historical figure. What independent sources corroborate the account? From what I've read, Mohammad's scribes didn't commit his supposed sayings to writing till 100 years or more after his death, making it very likely that anything that has been attributed to Mohammad was a pious and/or politically motivated invention, say, by legal scholars in Baghdad, for instance.

Do I believe that God dies? I believe that the Word of God became human, without surrendering divinity, and that Jesus the man could indeed be put to death, as the record states, and as he predicted would happen, and that because of his personal innocence he would rise from the grave, as he also predicted, since death could not hold him. He became sin without committing sin. 2 Corinthians 5:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+corinthians+5:21) and did so that he might taike away the sin of the world as God's Lamb (http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Lamb-of-God.html). John the Baptist described him this way.

You write, "to say that god 'dies' is total blasphemy, to say that god is 'humiliated' by his own creation is blasphemy. To say that god was within a womb feeding off his mother is blasphemy."

I didn't say that god dies, or that god is humiliated by his own creation, or that god was within a womb feeding off his mother. I agree with what Simeon said, as recorded in Luke 2

25Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, 28Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:
29"Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,
you now dismiss your servant in peace.
30For my eyes have seen your salvation,
31which you have prepared in the sight of all people,
32a light for revelation to the Gentiles
and for glory to your people Israel."

33The child's father and mother marveled at what was said about him. 34Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, 35so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too."

The sign spoken against is the Cross, a stumbling stone to Jews, idiocy to Gentiles, and blasphemy to Muslims.

Satan tempts the Word become flesh, not discerning who he is.

You don't accept the testimony that Jesus had to die because Mohammad rejected John the Baptist's testimony about him: "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29 Mohammad also rejected the Father's testimony about Jesus "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Luke 3: 21-22

Lex

16th July 2007, 02:49 AM

abu anas,

Jesus forgave sin (http://www.webcom.com/chapel/html/forgave_sin.html). Only God can forgive sin.

Speaking of tolerance of non-Muslim religions, last time I checked, it was against the law to practice Christianity in Saudi Arabia, the very heart of the Islamic nation.

You don't need to address the nicene Council, I would like you to refute the Nicene Creed, but you're only allowed to use the New Testament in making your case. That is, forget about the Gospel of Thomas. Only the Qur'an borrows from it as a "legitimate" source.

Humiliate me? You've only proven your arrogance.

Lex

16th July 2007, 03:07 AM

Regarding your miracle sources, it was enough to glean from the first link: "For this article, I shall show some miracles the prophet Muhammad performed, ending this sad lie that there are no miracles recorded in Islamic sources. Now whether Christians will agree with the sources I quote is IRRELEVENT.

Nuf said

Suhaib Jobst

16th July 2007, 04:57 AM

Peace be upon those who follow guidance,

Jesus forgave sin. Only God can forgive sin.

Jesus actually acknowledged sins can only be forgiven by God, as he carried out the will of God - John 12:49, 14:24.

Speaking of tolerance of non-Muslim religions, last time I checked, it was against the law to practice Christianity in Saudi Arabia, the very heart of the Islamic nation.

Jazirat al-Arabiyah (Arabian Peninsula) is the primary holy land for Islam. It is not representative of Muslims everywhere to mention this, as the sacred nature of this land makes it different than other lands. Furthermore, there are no indigenous Christians in Saudi Arabia. Those foreign Christians who do reside there are free to practice their religion privately, but no other religion aside from Islam can be established on a public level, which will necessarily affect the sacredness of this Islamic land.

Regarding your miracle sources, it was enough to glean from the first link.

It was not enough, for you did the same thing: Bring forward statements from web-sites we obviously disagree with. If you want an honest debate, I ask you to respond to our previous statements, when we brought evidence from the Bible to prove our case.

Rather, you ignore these statements and make no attempt to dispell any suspicions we may have concerning your agenda. Ask yourself: Do you want to express your own hostile opinions regarding Islam, or do you seek an honest debate in which we discuss issues mutually?

Umm Ahmed

16th July 2007, 10:57 AM

Lex .

Your belief is that Jesus is in fact God as you mentioned he forgave sins , so you believe that he was in the womb of Maryam and was born through the ... tract of maryam then he was a helpless new born who needed food and needed to have his nappy changed ? Is this what you ascribe to our Lord ?

Further more to the topic of sin , do you believe that your sinless? ( may God protect us from thinking we are sinless ameen) If you believe that God forgave all your sins, then you cant believe that there is going to be a judgement day ? So what do you think is the purpose of your life, here on earth ?

Lex

16th July 2007, 12:54 PM

Lex

16th July 2007, 01:18 PM

Please read this on the Incarnation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarnation_(Christianity))

In answer to your question about my sense of sin, this is what I believe:

"This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives." —1 John 1:5-10

And

“If a man say, ‘I love God.’, and hates his brother, he is a liar: For he that does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God Whom he has not seen? And He has given us this command: ‘That he who loves God love his brother.’” 1 John 4:20-21.

The purpose of my life is to know and to do the will of God, nothing more, nothing less. In the resurrection I will receive from God what I deserve, nothing more, nothing less.

Mu'awiya

16th July 2007, 02:40 PM

You asked me, "Why do you believe in Christianity?" Because Jesus was merciful to sinners,

Allaah says (translation of the meaning):

Say: 'O My servants who have transgressed against your own souls: do not despair of God's mercy,
for God forgives all sins.

It is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful.'

Qur'an (39:53)

the record of his life attests. Sure, I take the word of others who may have been writing from third hand knowledge about the events of Jesus' life, but that's the way of it for any historical figure.

Incorrect, we have the companions of God's final Messenger (peace be upon him) discussing his life authentically preserved for us.

What independent sources corroborate the account? From what I've read, Mohammad's scribes didn't commit his supposed sayings to writing till 100 years or more after his death, making it very likely that anything that has been attributed to Mohammad was a pious and/or politically motivated invention, say, by legal scholars in Baghdad, for instance.

Nope, you're wrong.

Abdullaah ibn Amr ibn al-Aas (May Allaah be pleased with him) reports that the Prophet said to him: Preserve Knowledge
Abdullaah then asked, how should it be preserved?
The Prophet replied, by writing it.

(Mustadrik Haakim; Jaami ul Bayaan)
In another report, he says, I came to the Prophet and told him, I want to narrate your ahadeeth. So, I want to take assistance of my handwriting besides my heart. Do you deem it fit for me?’
The Prophet replied, If it is my hadeeth you may seek help from your hand besides your heart. (Daarimi)
He also says: I used to write whatever I heard from the Prophet and wanted to learn it by heart. Some people of the Quraysh dissuaded me and said,
Do you write everything you hear from the Prophet, while he is a human being and sometimes he may be in anger as any other human beings may be? (Abu Dawood)
After Abdullaah ibn Amr conveyed their opinion to the Prophet, the Prophet replied by pointing to his lips and said: I swear by the One in whose hands is the soul of Muhammad: nothing comes out from these two (lips) except truth(haqq). So, do write. (Abu Dawood; Tabaqaat ibn Sa’d; Mustadrik ul Haakim)

These narrations attest that ahadeeth were written during the era of the Prophet.

I will list here the prominent compilations written in the first and second century, some written by the sahabas (the Prophet’s companions), their students (taabi’een), and the students of the taabi’een (tabaa'at-taabi'een).

The Scripts of Abu Hurairah

Hasan ibn Amr reports that once: Abu Hurairah took him to his home and showed him “many books” containing the ahadeeth of the Prophet. (Jaami’ Bayaan-ul-‘Ilm; Fath-ul-Baari)

The Script of Abdullaahi ibn Amr

Mujahid, his student, said I went to Abdullaah ibn Amr and took in hand a script placed beneath his cushion. He stopped me. I said, You never save anything from me. He replied:
This is the Saadiqah (the Script of Truth). It is what I heard from the Prophet. No other narrator intervenes between him and myself. If this script, the Book of Allaah, and wahaz (his agricultural land) are secured for me, I would never care about the rest of the world. (Jaami’ Bayaan-ul-‘Ilm)
The Script of Anas

Sa’eed ibn Hilal, one of his students, says: When we insisted upon Anas (may Allaah be pleased with him) he would bring to us some notebooks and say, These are what I have heard and written from the Prophet, after which I have presented them to the Prophet for confirmation. (Mustadrik Haakim)

The Script of Alee

Alee said: I have not written anything from the Prophet except the Qur’aan and what is contained in this script. (Saheeh Bukhaaree- Book of Jihaad)
Ibn Sa'd reports that Alee stood in the mosque and delivered a lecture then he asked the people: Who will purchase ‘knowledge’ for one dirham only?
meaning, who wants to learn ahadeeth should buy writing paper for one dirham and come to him for dictation.

It is reported that Haarith al-A’war bought some paper and came to him: So, Alee wrote for him a lot of knowledge. (Tabaqaat Ibn Sa’d)

Scripts of Jaabir

Qataadah, one of Jaabir’s students, says, I remember the script of Jaabir more than I remember Surah al-Baqarah (Qur’aan). (Tahdheeb at-Tahdheeb)

Scripts of Ibn Abbaas

Musa ibn Uqbah says: Kuraib left with us a camel load of Ibn Abbaas’s books. When Alee ibn Abdullaah ibn Abbaas would need any book from them, he wrote to Kuraib, ‘Send to me such and such books.’ He would then transcribe the book and send to him one of the two copies. (Tabaqaat Ibn Sa’d)
The pupils of Ibn Abbaas would copy these scripts and read them over to him to confirm the correctness of the copies. (Tirmidhi)

Sometimes Ibn Abbaas would narrate the ahadeeth to his pupils while they would record them. (Daarimi)

The compilations of the First Century:

1. Book of Khalid ibn Ma’dan (d. 104)
2. Books of Abu Qilabah (d. 104). He bequeathed his books to his pupil, Ayyub Saktiyan (68-131 A.H.), who paid more than ten dirhams as a fare for them being loaded on a camel.
3. The script of Hammam ibn Munabbih,
4. Books of Hasan al-Basri (21-110 A.H.)
5. Books of Muhammad al-Baqir (56-114 A.H.)
6. Books of Makhul from Syria
7. Book of Hakam ibn ‘Utaibah
8. Book of Bukair ibn Abdullaah ibn al-Ashajj (d. 117)
9. Book of Qais ibn Sa’d (d. 117). This book later belonged to Hammad ibn Salamah.
10. Book of Sulaiman al-Yashkuri
11. Al-Abwaab of Sha’bi,
12. Books of Ibn Shihaab az-Zuhri
13. Book of Abul-Aliyah
14. Book of Sa’id ibn Jubair (d. 95)
15. Books of Umar ibn ‘Abdul Aziz (61-101 A.H.)
16. Books of Mujahid ibn Jabr (d. 103)
17. Book of Raja ibn Hywah (d. 112)
18. Book of Abu Bakr ibn Muhammad ibn Amr ibn Haq
19. Book of Bashir ibn Nahik.

http://www.load-islam.com/artical_det.php?artical_id=434&section=indepth&subsection=Hadeeth

This then proves that there were many companions who writ down ahadith during the lifetime of the Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him.)

Do I believe that God dies? I believe that the Word of God became human, without surrendering divinity, and that Jesus the man could indeed be put to death, as the record states, and as he predicted would happen, and that because of his personal innocence he would rise from the grave, as he also predicted, since death could not hold him. He became sin without committing sin. 2 Corinthians 5:21 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+corinthians+5:21) and did so that he might taike away the sin of the world as God's Lamb (http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Lamb-of-God.html). John the Baptist described him this way.

This then is a sign of injustice, true? Saying that 1) Jesus dies for your sins, and guess what? Your sin is inherited off Adam?

This shows that it is an imperfect law from the beginning, to say that someone else bears the burdens and deeds of another. Do you find it fair that you should be executed for someone else's crime? Is there anyone with a sane mind who would justify this?

We as Muslims know that no soul bears the burden of another, every soul is responsible for it's ownself. So if someone does a crime - they should be punished, not anyone else. Regarding the issue of Adam and Eve, they repented for their mistake, so Allaah forgave them, since He is the Most Merciful to those who turn to Him.

2) The argument of Jesus 'being god' then falls flat on it's face, since Jesus isn't 'god' anymore. It's his 'human side.' Why can't you just believe in your own Creator and Sustainer as God Alone? Isn't that sufficient? Don't you know that the pagans and polytheists say the exact same thing about God being 'inside the creation'? Which they use to justify their idol worship, and worship of others along with our Creator and Provider - the Compassionate?

If you know it's God Alone who created you, gives you all you have, causes you to die, and will ressurect you once again - then why don't you worship Him Alone instead of having 'intercessors' between you and Him?

You write, "to say that god 'dies' is total blasphemy, to say that god is 'humiliated' by his own creation is blasphemy. To say that god was within a womb feeding off his mother is blasphemy."

I didn't say that god dies, or that god is humiliated by his own creation, or that god was within a womb feeding off his mother. I agree with what Simeon said, as recorded in Luke 2

So you believe that Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) was always human? Since you know that there is no place in the Bible whatsoever which states that Jesus asked people to worship him.

Good. :)

25Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him. 26It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ. 27Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, 28Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:
29"Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,
you now dismiss your servant in peace.
30For my eyes have seen your salvation,
31which you have prepared in the sight of all people,
32a light for revelation to the Gentiles
and for glory to your people Israel."

Aww.. :) salvation can refer to the Lord of the Children of Israel having Mercy upon the believers also. Since it seems from them verses that Simeone was praising God Almighty, which is a good thing.

33The child's father and mother marveled at what was said about him. 34Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, 35so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too."

I agree with that verse, because Jesus son of Mary - the Messiah is the truth. There were many Jews who rejected him, and there are many Jews who still reject him today. So indeed he will cause the falling and rising of many in Israel. And we totally agree - he faced a heavy opposition from the Jews. They said evil about him and his mother, yet they had no right to do so.

The sign spoken against is the Cross, a stumbling stone to Jews, idiocy to Gentiles, and blasphemy to Muslims.

Satan tempts the Word become flesh, not discerning who he is.

Is there any proof to state that the verse is referring to that at all? Or is that your opinion?

You don't accept the testimony that Jesus had to die because Mohammad rejected John the Baptist's testimony about him: "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" John 1:29 Mohammad also rejected the Father's testimony about Jesus "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Luke 3: 21-22

We don't believe that God has children, since God doesn't have a partner.

There are verses in the bible which state that God has 'many children' - some claim that Jesus is the 'begotten son' but there are also many others who are titled the 'begotten son' - but then it's claimed that the B in Begotten refers to Jesus (since the capital letter defines that its 'godly'.) Yet we see that there were no capital letters in the semitic languages at all, and still aren't.

Nor do we believe that any soul bears the burden of another. Since that is injustice. Every soul bears its own good and evil. And your God is One God, the One who gave you life, the One who gives you all you have, the One who will cause you to die, and the One who will ressurect you and us all, to judge us on all we did in this life. Then those who worshipped God Alone, believing in His Messengers' - they will have a great reward, whereas those who associated others as partners with Him will be punished in hell for their disbelief and arrogance against the truth.

Suhaib Jobst

16th July 2007, 03:44 PM

"He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me." John 14:24

"For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak." John 12:49

Both of these verses demonstrate clearly Jesus was sent by the Father, and he was not the Father himself. I took the liberty of highlighting the relevant parts.

As the Word of God incarnate, sent to reveal God, Jesus would only do and say what he had been commanded to do and say, but it is also recorded in John 8:11 that Jesus forgave a woman caught in the act of adultery, even though the law of Moses commanded that she be stoned. What does that tell you?

The Prophets have wisdom which is akin to inspiration, they know what will be best in the greater scheme of things, due to the revelation they receive. The Qur'an legislates certain punishments, but there's also a verse which says Allah (Azza wa-Jall) forgives that which is less than Shirk (associating partners with Him), so your statement is compatible with our own beliefs.

"...which will necessarily affect the sacredness of this Islamic land." So, to publicly practice Christianity on the Arabian peninsula would pollute the land?

It wouldn't pollute the land, and we do not regard non-Muslims as "unclean". Islam is not only a matter of personal belief, but our Faith has three parts, which also includes a public expression of our beliefs (i.e. actions of the limbs).

Arabia is founded upon a spiritual idea that only the One God deserves to be worshipped and all acts of worship directed towards other than Him are forbidden. We do not make the exception at Christians who invoke Jesus: Those familiar with Mecca and Medina know all acts of Shirk are forbidden, even those directed towards Muhammad (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam).

My agenda? I began wondering after 9/11 why many in the "Islamic nation" would like to see me dead. "Death to America!!!" the crowds shriek, and that means me, an "infidel" and a "crusader." Is the motivation for such rage in the Qur'an? Why yes, it is, I discovered. Could it be that true Muslims see it as their duty to deal with me just as the Jews dealt with the inhabitants of Canaan? Could it be that Osama bin Laden was right? YOU TELL ME.

I would like you to search within yourself and ask yourself: Would people who are willing to have a fair debate, who allow you a platform for your ideas that are admittingly hostile to everything we hold sacred....would we possess some deep-seated, pathological desire to see you dead?

Browse this forum and you will see constant condemnation of killing unarmed innocents and non-combatants. There are multiple threads just on the covenant many Muslims have with the non-Muslim country where they live, and the view expressed is that it is forbidden to break such covenants by attacking these countries or its citizens.

The "evidences" you brought forward cannot be divorced from their political context. But they most certainly should be viewed from the standpoint of politics, not religion. Ask yourself: Why does the actions of the U.S. government cause such hostility and reactions around the world?

Lex

16th July 2007, 03:50 PM

Umm Ahmed

16th July 2007, 03:55 PM

In answer to your question about my sense of sin, this is what I believe:

"This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives." —1 John 1:5-10

But in post 21 you said "Jesus forgave sin. Only God can forgive sin". and in the above your saying your belief is that Jesus is the son of God so how can he forgive sin ?

“If a man say, ‘I love God.’, and hates his brother, he is a liar: For he that does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God Whom he has not seen? And He has given us this command: ‘That he who loves God love his brother.’” 1 John 4:20-21.

We say if someone blasphemes against our Lord then we hate him for that which he does, but still hope and pray for his guidence , we love for his sake and we hate for his sake , and there is no one more deserving of this than the allmighty the all wise the watcher over us .

The purpose of my life is to know and to do the will of God, nothing more, nothing less. In the resurrection I will receive from God what I deserve, nothing more, nothing less.

We also do the will of God, but know that we will be held responsible for our choices . On the day of judgement we know what we have or havent done, its all recorded , then there are two abodes heaven or hell . What will be the abode of the one who ascribed sons to the creator who says be and his will , will be done.

Mu'awiya

16th July 2007, 03:56 PM

"So you believe that Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) was always human? Since you know that there is no place in the Bible whatsoever which states that Jesus asked people to worship him."

I'm glad you agree. :)

Agreed that Jesus did not ask people to worship him, but when it WAS offered, he didn't refuse it. Example: When Thomas said to Jesus after his resurrection from the dead, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28)

I remember once there was a little child who once saw a rat, she was amazed and screamed "Oh my God!"

She wasn't referring to the rat as God, rather she mentioned God out of amazement.

Jesus didn't correct the "blasphemy." Unless the author of John was lying or grossly misinformed, this is a clear example that Jesus saw himself as more than a mere prophet.

Use logic of the Previous Prophets Lex, weren't they all humans who called to the worship of God Alone, this was the exact same call of Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him.)

Elsewhere he claimed an identity with God, saying of himself, "Before Abraham was, I am," (John 8:58) that so outraged his enemies that they sought his immediate death for blasphemy, but his time had not arrived so he escaped their clutches. That charge would surface later at his illegal trial.

But why didn't he directly say "I'm god" if he really meant it? Doesn't God make His message clear to mankind instead of allowing them to run around in confusion?

Someone can say that "before Noah i was" and then state that they were in the genes of Adam, since everyone comes from the lineage of Adam, and only later from his lineage comes Noah.

That's all I have time for now.

This is an interesting discussion, and i hope you don't be put off. :) Thanks for your time.

Peace.

Lex

16th July 2007, 05:19 PM

I wrote, "The sign spoken against is the Cross, a stumbling stone to Jews, idiocy to Gentiles, and blasphemy to Muslims.

You asked, "Is there any proof to state that the verse is referring to that at all? Or is that your opinion?"

It is from Paul, in 1 Corinthians 1:23: “But we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling-block, and to the Greeks foolishness.” I added the “blasphemy to Muslims” line based on what I’ve been reading in this thread.

"She wasn't referring to the rat as God, rather she mentioned God out of amazement." Please, you can do better than that.

"But why didn't he directly say 'I'm god' if he really meant it? Doesn't God make His message clear to mankind instead of allowing them to run around in confusion?"

Why in Mark's Gospel would Jesus order the people that he cured to keep quiet about it? (Not that they heeded his advice, which actually made it more difficult for him) Again, why wouldn't he allow the people to make him King after he'd fed the multitudes with a few fish and loaves? Elsewhere John wrote that Jesus was hesitant to reveal who he was because he knew what was lurking in man's heart, all manner of uncleanness, and he didn't need their approval in any case. He had a different goal: his own death on a cross to satisfy divine justice on our behalf. Why? Because we could not.

Salvation is God's GIFT. It is nothing that we merit by good works, and this is the fundamental, bedrock Christian belief. Only a perfectly innocent man could accomplish this, for man's sake, which is why God assumed a human form, to die in our place. THIS is love, it seems to me. When we deserved nothing but damnation because of our sins, God in human form satisfied this debt so that we could then be free to love God in return as we ought.

"For him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Corinthians 5:21

Mu'awiya

16th July 2007, 06:33 PM

Thanks for your response.

From your response, we see that Jesus son of Mary never said that he was 'god' because he 'knew what was in the peoples hearts.' (according to your views?) If this is the case - couldn't he control their hearts to actually make them more positive so they do accept it?

Since this area causes a great deal of confusion among many different people, i think that God would make it apparent that He really is God if He wanted to convey it to His creation. i.e. a verse from the Qur'an;

Lo! this, your religion, is one religion, and I am your Lord, so worship Me.

[Qur'an 21: 92]

We see from that verse (translation of its meaning) that God clearly says that I am your Lord, so worship Me. I can even believe that there are similar verses in the OT, with a similar meaning. And i can believe that Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) called people to the exact same message of worshipping God alone.

So we have to really question whether Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him) stayed quiet because 1) he thought peoples hearts weren't ready to accept it - although he could 'change their hearts', if one was to claim that he is 'divine'. 2) he wasn't God at all, rather he was a Messenger of God - we agree he called to the worship of God - yet he never called to the worship of his own self.

[I know you may say that there were moments when his disciples 'worshiped' him - yet one has to define what the worship is in context in order to understand whether it really was worship or not.]

Thanks for your time.

Peace.

Lex

16th July 2007, 07:58 PM

You wrote, "If this is the case - couldn't he control their hearts to actually make them more positive so they do accept it?"

Is it love if it isn't freely given? Do you not believe in free will? There should be no compulsion in religion.

Jesus scandalized the crowd and his disciples when he revealed the teaching of the Eucharist. "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you," he said in John 6. Many left his company, since it was against Jewish law to drink blood, but Jesus didn't try to convince them that he was speaking metaphorically and should not be understood literally. He meant exactly what he said, I believe, and furthermore, that it broke his heart to see many leave his company, because he would NOT compel them to stay. They of their own free wills decided to leave, and that is both the beauty and the horror of human freedom, that we can choose to forsake the truth to serve a lie instead and God will honor that choice.

The mystery of iniquity is that the truth can be presented to someone and it will only confirm them in wickedness. This is what the OT passages about God hardening Pharoah's heart mean, I believe. Truth was presented by Moses, but the encounter with truth only confirmed Pharoah's malicious intent.

Mu'awiya

16th July 2007, 09:08 PM

Yes, i agree that there is no compulsion in religion. But we're questioning why Jesus never 'guided' their hearts since he was supposedly divine according to christians. Of course he loved them, and he never wanted them to go to hell for eternity.

I know that many Prophets prayed to God to guide people, and this may have been the case for Jesus also, and this makes total sense if we are to see that Jesus is a servant and Messenger of God. But to say that he is 'god' and not guiding the people makes you question the claim. Seeing the part of Moses to harden the heart of Pharoah makes sense also, since Pharoah was stubborn and arrogant. But we see that Moses wasn't God, which then further supports our argument that Jesus was also a Messenger of God, and many of his people rejected him similarly.

Honestly, all i want you to do is see the whole scenarios you read throughout Jesus's life, and since he never said he was God, and since he never said to people to worship him, then why not try to see it through that view and see the results?

Also, since you're a sincere guy, ask God, your Creator and Sustainer to guide you, me, and us all upon the truth (with no intermedarries attatched.) I will do the same, and since you're such a nice guy, maybe God will guide us all upon the truth if we are sincere. :)

Peace.

Lex

17th July 2007, 01:56 AM

Mu'awiya wrote, "Honestly, all i want you to do is see the whole scenarios you read throughout Jesus's life, and since he never said he was God, and since he never said to people to worship him, then why not try to see it through that view and see the results?"

Perhaps if I'd been born into a Muslim family in a predominantly Muslim culture, I'd be a Muslim like you, but I was born into a Christian culture and was raised that way. One thing that most Christians do every Christmas is go to Church where they'd hear from the pulpit the nativity account from the Gospel of Luke, Ch. 1. It goes like this:

In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, "Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you."
Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end."

"How will this be," Mary asked the angel, "since I am a virgin?"

The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God. Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. For nothing is impossible with God."

"I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her. (Luke 1:26-38)

Mu'awiya, all I want you to do is see that Gabriel's words to Mary about her miraculously conceived son form the foundation of what Christians believe about Jesus of Nazareth.

To you is not only impossible that God could have a Son, it is blasphemous to even suggest it. Why? Because Mohammad regarded it as a blasphemous "partnership" of some sort, and he said that he received his revelations about what is and is not blasphemous from Gabriel, yes, the very same angel Gabriel who spoke to Mary in Luke's Gospel.

You see then why I have trouble accepting the Qur'anic version of things regarding Jesus of Nazareth? It makes not only the author of Luke a liar or a dupe; it throws out nearly the entire New Testament! It is easier, far easier for me to believe that Mohammad was himself duped by a lying spirit whose primary goal was to discredit Christianity by posing as the angel "Gabriel" and attacking Christian doctrine, beginning with the Incarnation (God can't have a son in Islam), and the Vicarious Atonement (no man can die for another's sins in Islam) Without a death, there can be no resurrection, no Easter, and as Paul wrote: "And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable." 1 Cor. 15:17-19

Too bad for Christianity, since according to Mohammad, some 6 centuries after the fact, Isa didn't die on the Cross after all! The supposed death of Jesus was mere "conjecture," he dictated, as though Jesus had not said on numerous occasions (Mk. 9:31-32; Mk. 10: 32-34; Luke 9:22; Matt. 16:21) that he would be put to death by the Jewish authorities, and rise again on the third day, so even Jesus becomes a liar in the New Testament because Mohammad knew better c/o "Gabriel!"

Why wouldn't hell want to discredit Christianity? Jesus rose from the dead, as he said he would, meaning that the offering of his life as a blood atonement for sin was accepted by God, meaning not only that our freedom from the power of sin and death had been secured, but so had the promise of eternal life in Christ if we would but accept this offering of pardon as God's gift. It's a beautiful thing, Mu'awiya, but Mohammad/Gabriel would have none of it! Why do you suppose that is?

My guess is that Mohammad/Gabriel was jealous of the fact that redemption should depend on a JEW, people that he despised already because they rejected him as a false prophet.

Perhaps you missed my post where I mentioned that I began to post in this thread in response to the IslamicAwakening topic: "Why the Jews Were Cursed." What a hellish and self-serving bunch of crap, I thought. Why would anyone want to make such an argument? I needed to post that Christians don't regard the Jews as cursed. They don't even think in those terms, but rather see the Jews as beloved of God, if somewhat blind, as Paul himself noted as a mystery of God's wisdom, (Romans 9) that the Jews would reject the Messiah so that grace might come to the Gentiles, and then return to the Jews at the end. That is the Christian take on it, but if counting the ways that Jews are cursed is what occupies Islamic thought, good God, may I NEVER become a Muslim!

One last quote, a real gem:
November 23, 1937 Saudi Arabia's King Ibn Saud told British Colonel H.R.P. Dickson: "Our hatred for the Jews dates from God's condemnation of them for their persecution and rejection of Isa (Jesus) and their subsequent rejection of His chosen Prophet."

Jesus forgave his murderers from the Cross, the Christian record states, (Luke 23:34) yet Ibn Saud the Muslim spoke of hatred of Jews as the acceptable attitude of heart for their sins of rejecting both Isa AND Mohammad, something that the Qur'an taught him to do, so go ahead and protest all you like, Mu'awiya, about Allah's boundless mercy, even toward Jews (provided that they become Muslim, right?)

It appears to me now that Islam PREFERS hatred to love, so thank you for your appeal to me to be honest, Mu'awiya. My honest resolve is to remain a Christian and to pray for your deliverence from Islamic bondage to hatred and all of the "divinely" just ways that such culturally and spiritually ingrained hatred toward non-Muslims manifests itself in your thoughts, words, and deeds.

Umm Ahmed

17th July 2007, 05:09 AM

We are not all born muslims on these forums , and Islaam is also the fastest growing religion in the world . Islaam is bondage to God in such as our whole way of life from buisness to fasting we do everything for his sake alone.

Islaam does not prefer hate over love , they are both balanced God says my mercy prevails over my wrath , Islaam teaches us not to harm trees we were tree huggers long before anyone else heh. we cant say "uff" to our parents and the phrophet said " the best of you are those who are the best to their wifes" .

I mentioned before that we hate for Allaah's sake we hate those who blaspheme who says he has a son or a partner or worship statues we deplore that with all our heart. But we love for others what we love for ourselves so call on others to embrace Islaam the final message from God.

Lex

17th July 2007, 10:54 AM

Have you ever met a statue worshipper?

BTW, I don't hate you for hating me.

Umm Ahmed

17th July 2007, 11:12 AM

Catholics worship mary in a statue form , you can go to any catholic school and see as they come into the dinner hall they bow down , and cross themselves .
I've also see women feed their little Budha statue in its own little corner.

I dont hate you in the way you think I hate you , if I hate you I would be saying "leave and dont come back, rot in Hell and all that "
I wish for you what I wish for myself and thats Islaam.
I hate what your upon though , that you could think God has a son or that God walked the earth as Jesus because that creates images and thoughts that are beyond what God is to me .

Lex

17th July 2007, 12:25 PM

I searched "images in Islam" and here's (http://muttaqun.com/pictures.html) what I found:

The Noble Qur'an - Al-A'raf 7:148

And the people of Moses made in his absence, out of their ornaments, the image of a calf (for worship). It had a sound (as if it was mooing). Did they not see that it could neither speak to them nor guide them to the way? They took it for worship and they were Zalimun (wrong-doers).

The Noble Qur'an - Al-Anbiyâ 21:51-54

51. And indeed We bestowed aforetime on Ibrâhim (Abraham) his (portion of) guidance, and We were Well-Acquainted with him (as to his Belief in the Oneness of Allâh, etc.).

52. When he said to his father and his people: "What are these images, to which you are devoted?"

53. They said:"We found our fathers worshipping them."

54. He said: "Indeed you and your fathers have been in manifest error."

Hadith - Bukhari 3:428, Narrated Said bin Abu Al-Hasan

While I was with Ibn 'Abbas a man came and said, "O father of 'Abbas! My sustenance is from my manual profession and I make these pictures." Ibn 'Abbas said, "I will tell you only what I heard from Allah's Apostle . I heard him saying, 'Whoever makes a picture will be punished by Allah till he puts life in it, and he will never be able to put life in it.' " Hearing this, that man heaved a sigh and his face turned pale. Ibn 'Abbas said to him, "What a pity! If you insist on making pictures I advise you to make pictures of trees and any other unanimated objects."

Hadith -Bukhari 4:47, Narrated 'Aisha

I stuffed for the Prophet a pillow decorated with pictures (of animals) which looked like a Namruqa (i.e. a small cushion). He came and stood among the people with excitement apparent on his face. I said, "O Allah's Apostle! What is wrong?" He said, "What is this pillow?" I said, "I have prepared this pillow for you, so that you may recline on it." He said, "Don't you know that angels do not enter a house wherein there are pictures; and whoever makes a picture will be punished on the Day of Resurrection and will be asked to give life to (what he has created)?"

Hadith - Bukhari 4:448, Narrated Abu Talha

I heard Allah's Apostle saying; "Angels (of Mercy) do not enter a house wherein there is a dog or a picture of a living creature (a human being or an animal)."

Hadith -Bukhari 5:338, Narrated Ibn Abbas

Abu Talha, a companion of Allah's Apostle and one of those who fought at Badr together with Allah's Apostle told me that Allah's Apostle said. "Angels do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture." He meant the images of creatures that have souls.

Hadith - Muslim, Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib

AbulHayyaj al-Asadi told that Ali ibn AbuTalib said to him: Should I not send you on the same mission as Allah's Messenger sent me? Do not leave an image without obliterating it, or a high grave without levelling it. This hadith has been reported by Habib with the same chain of transmitters and he said: (do not leave) a picture without obliterating it.

Hadith - Muslim, narrated Maymunah

One morning Allah's Messenger was silent with grief. Maymunah said: Allah's Messenger, I find a change in your mood today. Allah's Messenger said: Gabriel had promised me that he would meet me last night, but he did not meet me. By Allah, he never broke his promises; and Allah's Messenger spent the day in this sad (mood). Then it occurred to him that there had been a puppy under their cot. He gave an order and it was turned out. He then took some water in his hand and sprinkled it on the place. When it was evening Gabriel met him and he said to him: You promised me that you would meet me the previous night. He said: Yes, but we do not enter a house in which there is a dog or a picture. So the very next morning he commanded the dogs to be killed. He announced that the dog kept for the orchards should also be killed, but he spared the dog used for the protection of extensive fields (or big gardens).

Hadith - Bukhari 8:151, Narrated 'Aisha

I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet , and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

Hadith - Abu Dawud, Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin

When the Apostle of Allah arrived after the expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar (the narrator is doubtful), the draught raised an end of a curtain which was hung in front of her store-room, revealing some dolls which belonged to her. He asked: What is this? She replied: My dolls. Among them he saw a horse with wings made of rags, and asked: What is this I see among them? She replied: A horse. He asked: What is this that it has on it? She replied: Two wings. He asked: A horse with two wings? She replied: Have you not heard that Solomon had horses with wings? She said: Thereupon the Apostle of Allah laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth.

Hadith - Sahih Bukhari 2.425, Narrated Aisha, r.a.

When the Prophet became ill, some of his wives talked about a church which they had seen in Ethiopia and it was called Mariya. Um Salma and Um Habiba had been to Ethiopia, and both of them narrated its (the Church's) beauty and the pictures it contained. The Prophet raised his head and said, "Those are the people who, whenever a pious man dies amongst them, make a place of worship at his grave and then they make those pictures in it. Those are the worst creatures in the Sight of Allah."

Hadith - At-Tirmidhi

"On the Day of Resurrection a neck will stretch forth from Hell; it will have two eyes to see, two ears to hear, and a tongue to speak. It will say, "I have been appointed to take care of three types of people: every arrogant tyrant, every person who called on some deity other than Allaah (swt) and those who made pictures" [at-Tirmidhi stated that this hadith was saheeh - at-Takhweef min an-Naar, p.179, See also Jaami' al-Usool, 10/518, the editor said its isnaad is hasan]

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Related Articles: Q & A: Tasweer

Related Book: "The Islamic Ruling concerning Tasweer" - Learn the ruling on Two & Three Dimensional Images, Drawings, Paintings, Photography and Sculptures. One of the most in-depth English translations which deals with this topic. It is a large compilation of various opposing views from prominent Sheikhs, presenting their Quran and Sunnah proofs for your determination in understanding this serious matter.

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Action Items for the Muttaqun:

Take down that picture of Martin Luther King.

Remove all pictures of animals and people from your walls, destroy any idol statues.

If you have a job where your boss insists that you decorate, such as is often required for teachers, decorate with ribbons, colored cotton, and other creative decorations, but do not succumb to hanging up images.

Take down that calendar with pictures of 'cute, cuddly' animals on it.

Allow your child to play with dolls if you so desire. Keep in mind that the dolls during the Prophet's time were simple "rag" or "sock" dolls without animated human features or intricate 'life-like' detail.

Do not hang up your child's pictures of animals, people, or anything worshipable, and don't let the schools do it with your children, either. Limit drawing to educational purposes.

Do not mix images and religion. Allah, subhana watala, sees all intentions.

Remember... Allah, subhana watala, sees everything we do!

__________________________________________________ _______________

Umm Ahmed, I trust that you are absolutely faithful to what Allah's apostle commands regarding images!

Read this if you will: Do Catholics Worship Statues? (http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp)

Umm Ahmed

17th July 2007, 12:45 PM

Yeah I dont have pictures and things in my home except for scenery or abstract or shapes my kids drawings are also on the fridge door , mountains and buses and what not.
Islamic art is very nice also http://www.google.com/search?q=Islamic+art+&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8
I dont have photos of people on my walls either , its so much nice to visit them dont you think ?
As for the catholic website thats not true they need to start educating their members better , I have seen with my own eyes catholics praying to Mary for help and saying it too , "Oh mother of God help us in our need" and I have seen a few bow to the picture of the pope.

Mu'awiya

17th July 2007, 03:00 PM

Perhaps if I'd been born into a Muslim family in a predominantly Muslim culture, I'd be a Muslim like you, but I was born into a Christian culture and was raised that way. One thing that most Christians do every Christmas is go to Church where they'd hear from the pulpit the nativity account from the Gospel of Luke, Ch. 1. It goes like this:

Thankyou for your response, i'll address all the points insha Allaah (God willing) while keeping in mind what we discussed earlier on in the thread.

In regard to what you said about the virgin Mary, Allaah says in the Qur'an (translation of the meaning):

And [mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah has chosen you and purified you and chosen you above the women of the worlds.

O Mary, be devoutly obedient to your Lord and prostrate and bow with those who bow [in prayer]."

That is from the news of the unseen which We reveal to you, [O Muْammad]. And you were not with them when they cast their pens as to which of them should be responsible for Mary. Nor were you with them when they disputed.

[And mention] when the angels said, "O Mary, indeed Allah gives you good tidings of a word from Him, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary - distinguished in this world and the Hereafter and among those brought near [to Allah ].

He will speak to the people in the cradle and in maturity and will be of the righteous."

She said, "My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?" [The angel] said, "Such is Allah ; He creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is.

And He will teach him writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel

And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah . And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah . And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.

And [I have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me.

Indeed, Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. That is the straight path."

But when Jesus felt [persistence in] disbelief from them, he said, "Who are my supporters for [the cause of] Allah ?" The disciples said," We are supporters for Allah . We have believed in Allah and testify that we are Muslims [submitting to Him].

Our Lord, we have believed in what You revealed and have followed the messenger Jesus, so register us among the witnesses [to truth]."

And the disbelievers planned, but Allah planned. And Allah is the best of planners.

[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.

And as for those who disbelieved, I will punish them with a severe punishment in this world and the Hereafter, and they will have no helpers."

But as for those who believed and did righteous deeds, He will give them in full their rewards, and Allah does not like the wrongdoers.

This is what We recite to you, [O Muْammad], of [Our] verses and the precise [and wise] message.

Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was.

The truth is from your Lord, so do not be among the doubters.

[Qur'an 3: 42-60]

Mu'awiya, all I want you to do is see that Gabriel's words to Mary about her miraculously conceived son form the foundation of what Christians believe about Jesus of Nazareth.

Thankyou, i have clarified it from Qur'an also as you can see above.

I was just having a discussion with someone from an earlier thread;

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showpost.php?p=40024&postcount=40

From the discussion we had, there was no chance that Muhammad (peace be upon him) could copy from the Bible.

1) He was illiterate.

2) There were no Christians within Makkah nor Madinah.

3) There were no copies of the Bible in arabic, yet alone it being within the Arabian Peninsula at that time.

4) If somehow Muhammad (peace be upon him) got some info from Christians [i don't know how but anyway] - his enemies would figure that out and use that against him. However, none even made that claim.

So we have to question, who did Muhammad (peace be upon him) get this information from? It couldn't have been from anyone besides Allaah. If you disagree, you'll have to bring evidence please.

To you is not only impossible that God could have a Son, it is blasphemous to even suggest it. Why? Because Mohammad regarded it as a blasphemous "partnership" of some sort, and he said that he received his revelations about what is and is not blasphemous from Gabriel, yes, the very same angel Gabriel who spoke to Mary in Luke's Gospel.

So we see that the idea of polytheism already takes place, and the pattern of ALL the previous Prophets of God calling to His worship Alone is rejected?

Did you know that there are many polytheists and idol worshippers who state that God is 'incarnated' into humans or their stone idols. Is this really justified?

You've got one of two options:

1) You accept that Christianity is a polytheistic faith, and unlike the ways of the previous Prophets of God.

2) You reject that and say that God sends us a message which doesn't make sense at all. I.e. that 3 = 1. Which i believe isn't Godly, since God makes His message clear to mankind. That He is Alone worthy of worship.

You see then why I have trouble accepting the Qur'anic version of things regarding Jesus of Nazareth? It makes not only the author of Luke a liar or a dupe; it throws out nearly the entire New Testament!

You know that Catholics and Protestants have two different bibles right? Which one's the correct one? How do we know it's reliable if Christians themselves can't unite on a common ground?

It is easier, far easier for me to believe that Mohammad was himself duped by a lying spirit whose primary goal was to discredit Christianity by posing as the angel "Gabriel" and attacking Christian doctrine, beginning with the Incarnation (God can't have a son in Islam), and the Vicarious Atonement (no man can die for another's sins in Islam) Without a death, there can be no resurrection, no Easter, and as Paul wrote:

Muhammad (peace be upon him) never even had access to Christians, why would he want to discredit them? When he was living a perfectly normal life before the revelations? Infact, this was the way of the people of old to label the Prophets 'bewitched' or 'possessed' or 'magicians.' Are you using the same tactics as the pagans of old to say that the Prophet has lied? The same way as the Jews who insulted Jesus and claimed he was using magic?

Secondly, do you believe that God has children? If everyone is God's 'child' - then why does He punish those who disbelieve in His revelations in the hellfire for eternity? Surely if God had 'children' - He wouldn't do it forever.

The issue of bearing someone elses deeds is unjust, and God isn't unjust. You shouldn't go to jail for what bob stole from the bank.

Too bad for Christianity, since according to Mohammad, some 6 centuries after the fact, Isa didn't die on the Cross after all! The supposed death of Jesus was mere "conjecture," he dictated, as though Jesus had not said on numerous occasions (Mk. 9:31-32; Mk. 10: 32-34; Luke 9:22; Matt. 16:21) that he would be put to death by the Jewish authorities, and rise again on the third day, so even Jesus becomes a liar in the New Testament because Mohammad knew better c/o "Gabriel!"

So let's get this straight, Jesus 'was god' for a little while. When he 'died' - he wasn't 'god' anymore? Therefore the 2nd part of the trinity died, 'a part of god died'? Is that logical?

Why wouldn't hell want to discredit Christianity? Jesus rose from the dead, as he said he would, meaning that the offering of his life as a blood atonement for sin was accepted by God, meaning not only that our freedom from the power of sin and death had been secured, but so had the promise of eternal life in Christ if we would but accept this offering of pardon as God's gift. It's a beautiful thing, Mu'awiya, but Mohammad/Gabriel would have none of it! Why do you suppose that is?

I suppose that is because it's unjust. So even the mass murderers can go to Paradise, or the Eternal Kingdom? And Jesus suffers for their crimes? Does that mean anyone can say 'i believe' and then do whatever he wants, mass rapes, massacres, kill anyone he wishes, and then be rewarded in the end?

My guess is that Mohammad/Gabriel was jealous of the fact that redemption should depend on a JEW, people that he despised already because they rejected him as a false prophet.

You think? Do you have any proof for that, or do i need to bring to you the proofs again for why the jews were expelled from Medina? From what i did mention, did it seem that the Jews hated him, or did it seem like he had a just peace treaty with them?

Each tribe did something which lead to treason or letting down their side of the covenant:

1) Banu Qaynuqa' - there was a Muslim woman who went to the Jewish Jewellery trading part of town, a mischievous man [a Jewish owner of the shop] went behind her while she was sitting down and placed a hook below her clothes. As soon as she got up, the hook lifted her clothes - this exposed her body. She screamed for help, a Muslim man rushed to help but he was killed by the Jews.

When the Prophet (peace be upon him) was informed, he layed siege to them. And they were ordered to leave the town. They broke their side of the covenant.

2) Banu Nadheer - The Muslims had agreed with the Jews, that if there was ever a war within Medina - both parties would support each other. The Prophet (peace be upon him) went to get some money from the Jewish party, they allowed him to rest under a tree. When he was resting, they realised it was an easy chance to murder him [you as a christian should know that they even attempted to kill Jesus (peace be upon him), and accomplished their murder of John the Baptist [Yahya] (peace be upon him) - yet you support the evil ways!?]

Angel Gabriel informed him (peace be upon him) that there was someone who had a boulder/heavy rock, ready to throw it on the Messenger of Allaah. He got up away from the tree, and walked away back to the Muslim part of Medina.

These people were expelled from Medina since they were united in trying to kill him. They broke their side of the covenant.

3) Banu Quraydha - The reason why Banu Quraydha was executed was because they commited treason, when 10,000 strong [From Quraysh, Ghattafaan etc.] were fighting the muslims (who ere about 3000 in number), the Banu Quraydha who had a treaty with the muslims in Medina broke it off at that moment in time, and were supplying the enemy while planning on killing the muslim women, children and elders.

By the will of Allaah, Allaah provided a way out for the muslims by sending a strong wind which lead to the tribes of Quraysh and Ghattafaan to leave the siege which they had started themselves around Medina. It lasted for about a month. Then who was left? It was the tribe of Banu Quraydha themselves, as they lived in Medina. They had commited treason, hence the punishment should be equal to the crime.

What happens next?

The Messenger of Allaah (peace be upon him) asks Sa'ad ibn Mu'aadh to give judgement to the Banu Quraydha [who used to be former allies with Sa'ad ibn Mu'aadh when islaan hadn't entered Medina] - the Jews of Banu Quraydah agreed that Sa'ad could be the one to make the ruling because they felt he would be flexible with them due to the fact that they were allies in the past. However, Sa'ad ibn Mu'aadh ordered that their men be executed and their women and children be e