KFC Chicken farms

[Umm Ahmed]

As salaamu 'alaykum.

How cruel is this.

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[Abuz Zubair]

Animals!!


Salahudin, I hope you lose your appetite for KFC after watching this!

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

"treated like meat machines not animals"

said the porn actress who was treated like meat not a human? maybe thats why they got here to do the video......she knows what its like? ......or maybe thats just "freedom"

[Nu7]

Imagine being a chicken in that farm.

[alghayb]

Being Vegan, I am happy to say that I do not contribute in any way whatsoever to this barbaric cruelty. Besides, I own three little chickens!

[Musta'eenah]

Subhanallah these people are soo cruel. Animals have rights too...

Alhamdulilah that we're muslims and that our meat is killed in a more humane matter.

[Um Ismail]

This made me cry....

[greenshirt]

and can you believe that they have KFC's in mecca?! i mean granted, insha allah they get their meat from other places besides inhumane slaughter houses like the one's in the video, since it has to be halal. but still!

like alghayb, i am a vegan and i have been for several years now. perhaps at one of the eid celebrations i will eat meat, but that is about it! most meat here is not halal anyways

wa salaam

[Abuz Zubair]

I really don't understand vegetarianism. Surely, we are meat eating animals and it is quite unnatural for us to survive on vegetables. Imagine, if a lion was turned into a vegetarian, or hyenas were forced to eat grass! Human vegetarianism is just so unnatural!

[Ibn Jafar]

I really don't understand vegetarianism. Surely, we are meat eating animals and it is quite unnatural for us to survive on vegetables. Imagine, if a lion was turned into a vegetarian, or hyenas were forced to eat grass! Human vegetarianism is just so unnatural!


True of course, but if one follows the overwhelming majority opinion that the average store bought meat in the West is haraam, for a convert at least, he would be like a vegetarian!

I mean you would eat meat once in a while if you are with Muslims or a Muslim restaurant, but in your day to day life you would live like a vegetarian. This might only apply to converts who live with thier family though...

But as for vegetarianism then that is not from Islam and is just extreme...

[Abuz Zubair]

I disagree, because you can always eat fish! :) Plus, the situation you describe is probably only applicable to converts in the US, because in the UK Halal meat shops are everywhere.

[alghayb]

I really don't understand vegetarianism. Surely, we are meat eating animals and it is quite unnatural for us to survive on vegetables. Imagine, if a lion was turned into a vegetarian, or hyenas were forced to eat grass! Human vegetarianism is just so unnatural!

If we were solely meat eating animals then we would not be able to survive solely on vegetables. Their is nothing unnatural about it.

I have nothng against meat eaters at all and if they want to believe it is part of the food chain as with other animals then fine. But, other animals (a lion for axample) chase, kill and eat their catch without weapons, vehicles, etc. On that rationale, then eat meat all you want but do as the lion does - chase it on foot, kill it with your bare hands and eat it uncooked. That would be more 'natural' and I would have a lot more respect then. I would like to see a 'human' tear meat from a freshly killed animal with his 'meat eating teeth'.

Also, their is eating meat and eating mass produced meat like KFC, McDonalds, etc. I see nothing natural about the meat industry in todays society, where everythiong is a conveyer belt culture and done on such a horrific massive scale. Their is eating meat and their is eating meat that has been solely reared for human consumption.

Allah tells us to be compasionate, considerate, caring and merciful to animals - I do not see eating one unnesesarily as being any of those things.

Also, eating meat in todays society is the single most disasterous aspect for climate change (http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/hot/index.php) and starvation in third world countries (http://www.viva.org.uk/pdfs/8pp_leaflet.pdf) and health problems. I mean, in the time of the Prophet things were done for nessesity and not for want. And, they were not so pumped full of chemicals then as they are now.

Take a look at Diet of Disaster (http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/hot/dietofdisaster/index.php) for a small example with its sections on:

Global Warming (http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/hot/dietofdisaster/page2.php)
Deforestation and Loss of Biodiversity (http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/hot/dietofdisaster/page3.php)
Overuse of Fresh Water (http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/hot/dietofdisaster/page4.php)
Destruction of the Oceans (http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/hot/dietofdisaster/page5.php)
Fish Farming (http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/hot/dietofdisaster/page6.php)
Pollution: Antibiotic Pollution (http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/hot/dietofdisaster/page7.php)
Chemical Pollution (http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/hot/dietofdisaster/page8.php)
Heavy Metal Pollution (http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/hot/dietofdisaster/page9.php)
Pesticide Pollution (http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/hot/dietofdisaster/page9.php)
Desertification (http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/hot/dietofdisaster/page9a.php)
Health (http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/hot/dietofdisaster/page11.php)
References (http://www.viva.org.uk/campaigns/hot/dietofdisaster/page12.php)

The Qur'an says do things but do not do them in excess or support excesses. Eating meat goes well beong that in todays society.

I went Vegan because Allah taught me sense. Even if just for one of these and not all four: Saving Animals, Saving the Planet, Saving Others, Saving Yourself HERE (http://www.viva.org.uk/goingveggie/index.html) and HERE (http://www.viva.org.uk/goingvegan/index.htm).

[Ibn Jafar]

I disagree, because you can always eat fish! :) Plus, the situation you describe is probably only applicable to converts in the US, because in the UK Halal meat shops are everywhere.

HA! Sometimes we forget that fish are animals too! IDK why fish didn't cross my mind when I was typing that post, but since I became Muslim my fish intake has increased like ten fold. It's such a mercy that we are allowed any fish from anyone...

The UK is alot different than the US. Not only is the Muslim population alot bigger (maybe not in numbers but in demographics) it is also a tiny country. The whole UK is smaller than many US states. Fortuneitly if you live in the North East US, where I live there are alot of Muslims/halaal food. But if you live most other places your lucky to find a Masjid let alone a meat shop!

[Abuz Zubair]

If we were solely meat eating animals then we would not be able to survive solely on vegetables. Their is nothing unnatural about it.So if you can survive on water and apples, you don't need vegetables, either! I mean, what kind of nonsense is this? Human race has been eating meat since the creation of Adam. This was the natural disposition of man and still is! If eating meat was so unnatural as you suggest just because we don't have lion-like teeth, Allah would have revealed, at least in ONE of his Sharias, from Adam to Muhammad, the prohibition or at least dislike for eating meat. On the other hand, when some companions came to him and said, 'We would not eat meat' he rebuked them and said, 'I eat meat' and further added, 'Whoever does not follow my Sunnah is not of me!'

We have 'id al-Adha, for God's sake, where we SLAUGHTER ANIMALS in large numbers and consume them. The Prophet s himself was a meat eater, and yes, he used to cook it and not eat it raw!

What's cooking meat got to do with us being naturally meat eaters or otherwise?! It's like saying it is unnatural for us to wear clothes because animals don't wear them! Hello?! Most civilised nations in the world cook the meat before eating it?! And even if one wants to eat meat raw there is nothing wrong with it, but in human civilisation, we cook the meat, and it doesn't make us any less meat-eaters than the lions, etc.

[abu_ibrahim]

AlGhayb,

Are you a lentil eating hippy by any chance?

[alghayb]

So if you can survive on water and apples, you don't need vegetables, either! I mean, what kind of nonsense is this? Human race has been eating meat since the creation of Adam. This was the natural disposition of man and still is! If eating meat was so unnatural as you suggest just because we don't have lion-like teeth, Allah would have revealed, at least in ONE of his Sharias, from Adam to Muhammad, the prohibition or at least dislike for eating meat. On the other hand, when some companions came to him and said, 'We would not eat meat' he rebuked them and said, 'I eat meat' and further added, 'Whoever does not follow my Sunnah is not of me!'

We have 'id al-Adha, for God's sake, where we SLAUGHTER ANIMALS in large numbers and consume them. The Prophet s himself was a meat eater, and yes, he used to cook it and not eat it raw!

What's cooking meat got to do with us being naturally meat eaters or otherwise?! It's like saying it is unnatural for us to wear clothes because animals don't wear them! Hello?! Most civilised nations in the world cook the meat before eating it?! And even if one wants to eat meat raw there is nothing wrong with it, but in human civilisation, we cook the meat, and it doesn't make us any less meat-eaters than the lions, etc.

You cannot survive on water and apples because not all of the nutriants you need to survive are their. All of them are found in vegetables in abundance. Besides, like I said, I have nothing against meat eaters, just the way it is done nowadays - it is a far cry from the time of the Prophet. And, back then it was not done on such a massive unnessesary scale which is destroying the planet and is responsible for third world starvation. I have added to my original post (http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showpost.php?p=113019&postcount=12) to explain this.

[alghayb]

AlGhayb,

Are you a lentil eating hippy by any chance?

Nope, not at all, as a Muslim I despise drugs and that is part of the hippy culture. Am I someone that looks at both sides of a story no matter how inconvenient, yes. Please see my original and updated post (http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showpost.php?p=113019&postcount=12).

Just because one is outside of the mass consumption/murder market doesn't make them a hippy.

[Ibn Jafar]

You cannot survive on water and apples because not all of the nutriants you need to survive are their. All of them are found in vegetables in abundance. Besides, like I said, I have nothing against meat eaters, just the way it is done nowadays - it is a far cry from the time of the Prophet. And, back then it was not done on such a massive unnessesary scale which is destroying the planet and is responsible for third world starvation. I have added to my original post (http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showpost.php?p=113019&postcount=12) to explain this.

So really your just opposed to the industrialized aspect of it?

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

Nope, not at all, as a Muslim I despise drugs and that is part of the hippy culture. Am I someone that looks at both sides of a story no matter how inconvenient, yes. Please see my original and updated post (http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showpost.php?p=113019&postcount=12).

Just because one is outside of the mass consumption/murder market doesn't make them a hippy.


Eating from your Zabiha on 'Eid is Sunnah. Are you rejecting it?

Slaughtering animal yourself on 'Eid is Sunnah. Are you rejecting it?

Fa bi ayyi 'alaa'i rabbikumaa tukadhdhibaaan?

[Magoo]

i didnt know muslim vegans existed till today, im not joking when i say im truly gobsmacked

[Nu7]

I think vegetarianisn mostly exists amongst the convert/revert brothers.

Coming from the Middle East or the Horn of Africa where I am from, you would be labelled a sissy for not eating meat lol.

I have to eat meat everyday. What is a meal without meat? Alhamdulillah for meat!!!

[Fajr]

I can probably understand vegetarians... but never vegans!

Can we please distinguish between the two :confused: - aren't vegans those who refuse to have anything to do with meat/animal products (i.e. no cheese, fish, soaps, cream/beauty products containing animal oils etc)?

So are you vegetarians or vegans?

[Umm]

Why forbid yourself from what Allah has made halal?
I can't stand vegetarians, and vegans are just weird. I worked with a whole stack of them b4 I was Muslim. Jaundiced, sickly-looking people. That's why Hindus are so puny, too much daal and not enough meat.

As my father says: real men...eat meat!

[alghayb]

So really your just opposed to the industrialized aspect of it?

And everything that comes from that, yes. I would think and hope, sensible people are. Look at what it is doing.

It is all very well saying the Prophet ate meat but I think he would be horrified at what is being done today - on the scale, the total unessesaryness of it on this level, the pollution, the starvation, etc, etc.

Surely, you can see this? It is not even so much a case of ethics. More comon sense. Everything is so mechanical now on a nightmare scale. It's all about money and not need. And, if that wasn't bad enough from an Islamic perspective... lives of being ended unnessesarily and needlessely at the expense of the planet and its people. All for money and personal taste.

[alghayb]

i didnt know muslim vegans existed till today, im not joking when i say im truly gobsmacked

Rafeeque Ahmed
Founder, Muslim Vegan/Vegetarian Society in the UK
59 Brey Towers,
136 Adelaide Towers,
London,
NW3 3JU;
Tel: 020 74831742

He wrote: "Islam and Vegetarianism/Veganism (http://www.viva.org.uk/vivashop/productlist.php?category=27&parent=5)"

Video interview below:

Veganism A Noble Way of Living - Episode 589, Interview with Rafeeque Ahmed (Founder, Muslim Vegan/ Vegetarian Society) , Air date: April 25, 2008 (VEG - 20080425)

<embed src="http://www.veoh.com/veohplayer.swf?permalinkId=v80914835X2ztHkB&id=anonymous&player=videodetailsembedded&videoAutoPlay=0" allowFullScreen="true" width="410" height="341" bgcolor="#FFFFFF" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer"></embed><br/><a href="http://www.veoh.com/">Online Videos by Veoh.com</a>

[WM]

Akhi, what are your shoes made out of? ;)

[ZubairT]

Subhanallah these people are soo cruel. Animals have rights too...

Alhamdulilah that we're muslims and that our meat is killed in a more humane matter.

Alhamdulillah to the manner of the slaughter, but given the amount of muslims and the amount of chicken that we eat do not at all be under the impression chickens in muslim slaughter houses are treated any better.

Take Saudi for example -

1) per capita consumption of poultry meat and products is estimated at 37.4 kg in 2005,
2) the average broiler live weight when marketed is 1.40 kg

Therefore per capita average is 26.7 chickens, which in a population of 27 million people means ... 720,900,000 chickens ... approx 2 million chickens per day. There is just no way to produce 2 million chickens per day at the cost wanted without utilising such methods unfortunately. Fact of life kind of.

Sorry for the post but it always interested me about chickens and this thread meant I did the research :)

[Ibn Jafar]

And everything that comes from that, yes. I would think and hope, sensible people are. Look at what it is doing.

It is all very well saying the Prophet ate meat but I think he would be horrified at what is being done today - on the scale, the total unessesaryness of it on this level, the pollution, the starvation, etc, etc.

Surely, you can see this? It is not even so much a case of ethics. More comon sense. Everything is so mechanical now on a nightmare scale. It's all about money and not need. And, if that wasn't bad enough from an Islamic perspective... lives of being ended unnessesarily and needlessely at the expense of the planet and its people. All for money and personal taste.


So you wouldn't be opposed to eating a lamb that was rasied and killed in a gentle manner?

[Um Ismail]

So you wouldn't be opposed to eating a lamb that was rasied and killed in a gentle manner?


Yummmmyyyyyyy....

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

Why forbid yourself from what Allah has made halal?


My thoughts exactly.

O ye who believe! make not unlawful the good things which Allah hath made lawful for you, but commit no excess: for Allah loveth not those given to excess. Eat of the things which Allah hath provided for you, lawful and good; but fear Allah, in Whom ye believe. (Al-Ma'idah 87-88)

[alghayb]

So you wouldn't be opposed to eating a lamb that was rasied and killed in a gentle manner?

Me personally, yes, as I am Vegan - not just on the weekend. But others, no, its up to them. I am not a p[reacher.

My thoughts exactly.

O ye who believe! make not unlawful the good things which Allah hath made lawful for you, but commit no excess: for Allah loveth not those given to excess. Eat of the things which Allah hath provided for you, lawful and good; but fear Allah, in Whom ye believe. (Al-Ma'idah 87-88)

"Commit no excess" - it's very hard in the West in this day and age to not do that unless you breed the animal yourself. Other than that, its a mass produced/mass slaughter industry for profit. And, because of this, no compassion is given towards the animal - which Allah expresses.

Akhi, what are your shoes made out of? ;)

http://www.vegetarian-shoes.co.uk/

[WM]

Well, you're consistent- I'll at least give you that.

[Nu7]

So let me get this straight, akhi. You gave up on meat because you dislike the fact that it is mass-produced???

So this, does nothing for you???

http://pro.corbis.com/images/GS160022.jpg?size=572&uid=%7B1227C451-2BCE-46C6-BEFB-D4E4D9DD0FB8%7D

http://www.les-expats.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/kebab.jpg

http://z.about.com/d/bbq/1/0/a/3/beef_kebab_cooked.jpg

http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/jem54/recipes%20branch/Beer%20and%20Lamb%20008.jpg

http://img2.travelblog.org/Photos/2957/12068/f/51074-Eating-shis-kebab-1.jpg


I think I'm hungry..

[Ibn Jafar]

Me personally, yes, as I am Vegan - not just on the weekend. But others, no, its up to them. I am not a p[reacher.



This is extremism.

[greenshirt]

ok, why do people care if one is a vegan/vegetarian? last time i checked, it is halal. and as long as one is not making it part of their religion, then what is the big deal!

get over yourselves! some people just do not like meat. others do not like the way meat is processed(and this is american made meat i am talking about, not halal meat.) the list goes on. but either way, just get over it! some people do not eat meat, so what! it does not make one weird, and not all vegans are skinny and unhealthy.

geesh, people on this forum cause drama out of the smallest issues! thank goodness for multaqa ahl-alhadeeth.. at least that place is not so dramatic, lol!

[Nu7]

ok, why do people care if one is a vegan/vegetarian? last time i checked, it is halal. and as long as one is not making it part of their religion, then what is the big deal!

get over yourselves! some people just do not like meat. others do not like the way meat is processed(and this is american made meat i am talking about, not halal meat.) the list goes on. but either way, just get over it! some people do not eat meat, so what! it does not make one weird, and not all vegans are skinny and unhealthy.

geesh, people on this forum cause drama out of the smallest issues! thank goodness for multaqa ahl-alhadeeth.. at least that place is not so dramatic, lol!

Take a chill pill, akhi. There is no Drama here except for your post lol.

[Abu Maryam PK]

i don't know why we on iA dispage scholars like salman al-'awdah for his new taiseer manhaj and at the same time put up videos containig ladies (alhamdolillah didnt see it, but from abu iman's post on the first page, it seems it contains an actress) and pictures of ladies, like OBL's brot D-in-law. If this is not taiseer, ibaha then i dont know what is.

[UmmAbdulMalikStorm]

I have to eat meat everyday. What is a meal without meat?

Are you serious? That's extremely unhealthy. Eating too much meat is bad news on all levels - physically, mentally and spiritually.

Correct me if im wrong, but during the time of the prophet (saw) meat was a luxury and an animal was only slaughtered to honour guests or on special occasions such as eid / births etc. And didn't Umar al khattab (ra) ban meat except for once or twice a week?

Now i love my meat, but I think eating it more than twice a week is just excessive.

Leave our veggie bros and sisters alone.

[UmmAbdulMalikStorm]

Another aspect to think about is "emotional transfer" - Some people believe that the life that an animal has led will have an impact on you; i.e.an animal that has led a miserable life, in a shed, with no light,slaughtered with sheer fright will pass on that negativity to the person who eats it. Whereas with a happy, free-range, well-cared for animal that has been slaughtered properly in a relaxed state will mean a happier person.

[Umm]

ok, why do people care if one is a vegan/vegetarian? last time i checked, it is halal. and as long as one is not making it part of their religion, then what is the big deal!

get over yourselves! some people just do not like meat. others do not like the way meat is processed(and this is american made meat i am talking about, not halal meat.) the list goes on. but either way, just get over it! some people do not eat meat, so what! it does not make one weird, and not all vegans are skinny and unhealthy.


Brother, forbidding oneself something is to make it haram, when Allah has made it halal.
Now I personally can't stand beetroot and will avoid it wherever possible, and it's halal for me to do so. That isn't the same as chastising others for eating it and persuading them that it's wrong for them to eat it.

The few veggies I know always say "I know it's halal but..."
Then comes the excuse that they just don't like the taste...
Then they will slip up and say it's cruel...

The brother has made it clear that even if the cruel conditions were absent, he still wouldn't eat meat.
And veg shoes! Didn't Zainab (RA) make a living from tanning leather?

[Um Ismail]

Another aspect to think about is "emotional transfer" - Some people believe that the life that an animal has led will have an impact on you; i.e.an animal that has led a miserable life, in a shed, with no light,slaughtered with sheer fright will pass on that negativity to the person who eats it. Whereas with a happy, free-range, well-cared for animal that has been slaughtered properly in a relaxed state will mean a happier person.

Could be some truth to this!

Last year my grandfather slaughtered a rather happy lamb, and I was soooooo happy......we had yummy meat for daaaays!! LOL

[Ibn Jafar]

Another aspect to think about is "emotional transfer" - Some people believe that the life that an animal has led will have an impact on you; i.e.an animal that has led a miserable life, in a shed, with no light,slaughtered with sheer fright will pass on that negativity to the person who eats it. Whereas with a happy, free-range, well-cared for animal that has been slaughtered properly in a relaxed state will mean a happier person.

Is this from Islam or Hinduism?

[Hamza]

Is this from Islam or Hinduism?

lol,

but yes the meat tends to taste better, and more healthy when properly handled.

[Um Ismail]

lol,

but yes the meat tends to taste better, and more healthy when properly handled.

personally, I haven't been able to tell the difference.........yet. All I know is I buy halal, but you never know these days, I've heard awful things.

[Skillganon]

Does anyone know where I can get halal KFC in london?

[Ibn Jafar]

lol,

but yes the meat tends to taste better, and more healthy when properly handled.

Taste and health are a far cry from "emotional transfer".

[greenshirt]

Brother, forbidding oneself something is to make it haram, when Allah has made it halal.
Now I personally can't stand beetroot and will avoid it wherever possible, and it's halal for me to do so. That isn't the same as chastising others for eating it and persuading them that it's wrong for them to eat it.

The few veggies I know always say "I know it's halal but..."
Then comes the excuse that they just don't like the taste...
Then they will slip up and say it's cruel...

The brother has made it clear that even if the cruel conditions were absent, he still wouldn't eat meat.
And veg shoes! Didn't Zainab (RA) make a living from tanning leather?
everyone should know that meat is halal if slaughtered in the islamic way, with just a few exceptions(pork, etc.)

i know that. i know that meat is halal and never tell anyone it is haram, because that is false.

i just dont eat meat because i am not the biggest fan. but, how is that wrong? once, the prophet(saws) was given a lizard to eat, and he wouldn't eat t because he did not like the taste. that does not mean it is haram though!

as for the other vegan brother in here.. well, i have not been keeping up with all the posts. but as long as he knows that meat is halal, that he should not stop people from eating halal meat, and that we should probably eat meat on the eid's, then i dont see what the problem is.

[Hamza]

greenshirt that sounds fair enough.

[Skillganon]

everyone should know that meat is halal if slaughtered in the islamic way, with just a few exceptions(pork, etc.)

i know that. i know that meat is halal and never tell anyone it is haram, because that is false.

i just dont eat meat because i am not the biggest fan. but, how is that wrong? once, the prophet(saws) was given a lizard to eat, and he wouldn't eat t because he did not like the taste. that does not mean it is haram though!

as for the other vegan brother in here.. well, i have not been keeping up with all the posts. but as long as he knows that meat is halal, that he should not stop people from eating halal meat, and that we should probably eat meat on the eid's, then i dont see what the problem is.

Here is a fatwa that clarifies the issue a bit. It's relevant to the topic.

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/2521/vegetarian

[waziri]

or the Horn of Africa where I am from,

wallaal Nu7 ii war, ma fiicantahay.???

[Nu7]

wallaal Nu7 ii war, ma fiicantahay.???

lol, you're not too bad.

[waziri]

Lol akhi does that say how am I ? ITS SUPPOSED TO BE HOW ARE YOU.

[Nu7]

LOL Don't worry, you got it right akhi. :D

[Magoo]

Does anyone know where I can get halal KFC in london?

edgware road one is supposed to be halal

[juwairiyah]

i don't know why we on iA dispage scholars like salman al-'awdah for his new taiseer manhaj and at the same time put up videos containig ladies (alhamdolillah didnt see it, but from abu iman's post on the first page, it seems it contains an actress) and pictures of ladies, like OBL's brot D-in-law. If this is not taiseer, ibaha then i dont know what is.

bismillah

assalamu'alaykum warahmatullah

yeah i agree .we shd avoid putting up videos that show uncovered women..but it cldnt be avoided in this case because her motive was to show the chicken farms and it was nevessary to enlighten ppl abt the way chickens are slaughtered

posting pics of men/women unnecessarily shd be avoided though

[Tauheed]

and can you believe that they have KFC's in mecca?! i mean granted, insha allah they get their meat from other places besides inhumane slaughter houses like the one's in the video, since it has to be halal. but still!

A lot of the poultry in the Arab countries comes from countries such as Brazil. Have a read of the below:

In October 2007, HMC was approached by a Global meat supplier and manufacturer to investigate and inspect on its behalf the Brazilian ‘Halal’ market. Brazil, along with Australia and New Zealand are the world’s largest exporters of meat and processed products feeding the global hunger for Halal Products. Much of these supplies head to the Middle Eastern countries including Saudi Arabia; UAE, Dubai, Oman, Qatar, Africa and Europe. This month we reveal the shocking and confidential findings of our man from his trip through the wild west of Brazil and the practices from a continent apart. Nevertheless, meat and poultry finds its way to our palates in a global world where distances have shrunk and we the Ummah consume blindly in good faith – Allah forgive us all for our lack of knowledge and shortcomings.
Travelling 12,500 miles by air and covering 1,800 miles by land, working through the night across the vast terrains of Brazil, this expose uncovers the malpractices in Brazil - one of the world’s largest suppliers of the Halal food industry. This investigation attempted access to 18 of the largest abattoirs in Brazil. According to the Brazilian Poultry Exporters Association, a staggering 718,000 tons of chicken were exported to the Middle east from January to September 2007 and 402,000 tons to the European Union during the same period. By the grace of the Almighty we gained access and enquiries were made of 11 abattoirs and the findings were unfortunately quite shocking:

• No Muslim slaughtermen at many of the sites
• No recitation of Tasmiyah (name of Allah)
• Stunning prevalent at the majority of the sites (risk of many animals being dead at the point of slaughter)
• No knowledge of Halal and its basic rules
• Mechanical slaughter used at majority of sites
To some extent, it comes as no surprise to HMC as it has consistently found malpractice in the name of Halal – the most abused brand in the world. The vegetarian society (v) is protected more than the 1400 year old Halal engrave which stands unprotected – Allah forgive us. This so-called ‘Halal’ meat then fi nds its way to our holiest of cities, self certifi ed by many scrupulous practices under the guise of Halal. The scale of the operations has even alarmed us and the many genuine organisations across the Middle East.
HMC continues to promote genuine Halal and once again the need and rigour of a continuous monitoring and inspection system is confi rmed to guarantee the provision of Halal to the Muslim Ummah – “Your Seal of Assurance”
May Allah help our campaign to uncover deceit and give us strength to fight and give the Ummah the choice they deserve, genuine pure Halal, the basic foundation we need to conduct our lives. Please support HMC in its tireless efforts “for the people and of the people”. Ameen.
The report, publication and fi ndings are confi dential. However the general fi ndings have been revealed without disclosing names, people and locations © HMC 2007

[Um Ismail]

I think while we are not obligated to research the manners of slaughter, once the knowledge comes to us we are held accountable, Allahu A'lam. I have a friend in Australia whose husband was a butcher in a place that hired many Muslim butchers to accomodate the Muslim population of the city, yet even some of those Muslim butchers besides some of them not even praying, etc, did not recite tasmiyah in addition to other nasty things they generally (Muslim and non-Muslim) did at that place which I won't mention. So my friends husband may Allah reward him resigned from the place after all the advice he has given, because he felt responsible for knowing the truth and not wanting to conceal it from the Muslim customers, may Allah reward him.

My point is these days we do not have a 100% guarantee that the 'halal label' truly means halal, but Alhamdulillah Allah did not obligate us to research especially when we assume it is slaughtered properly and by Muslims.

And I was shocked when I saw some pork products labeled "halal".

[Tauheed]

Question

What are some general principles related to Halal meat? Can we trust others' word on whether the meat is Halal?


Answer

In general, the jurists (fuqaha) mention that one can trust another’s word (Muslim or non-Muslim) that the meat has been properly Islamically slaughtered [Fatawa Hindiyya, Radd al-Muhtar].
However, when there is reason to be cautious, it is recommended to take the means to make sure that it is in fact Halal.
When there is ‘reasonable’ fear that this particular meat is possibly Haram--or when it is generally the case that meat labelled ‘Halal’ is dubious--then it would be one’s duty to make sure.

(End of Fatwa)
Keeping the above in mind, Muslims living in this country need to ponder as to which situation relates to them. The first and second situations are both out of the question, and the reason is obvious. The third situation also does not relate to us, since there is not only ‘reasonable’ fear that the meat labelled as Halal is possibly Haram. Rather, based on the research and investigation of many individuals and organisations, the current situation is even worse – that is there is ‘extreme’ fear that a particular meat labelled as Halal may be Haram.

Therefore, one must not take another’s word at face value; rather it will be one’s duty to ensure that the meat is Halal, whether individually or through an organisation that one trusts and who would give this assurance.

And Allah knows best

Mufti Muhammad Ibn Adam Al-Kawthari

[Um Ismail]

I have a question, what happens if one goes to their Muslim relatives or friends and doesn't 'know' about the meat they serve, shouldn't we say bismillah and eat in such case, just like in the hadith when rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam told the sahaba to say bismillah and eat? Some people although their relatives assure them that the meat they serve is halal, refuse to eat and the Muslim relatives/friends take great offence to this subhan'Allah. Of course no one here can give fatawa, but I'm just curious about your input on the matter.

[abumuwahid]

I have a question, what happens if one goes to their Muslim relatives or friends and doesn't 'know' about the meat they serve, shouldn't we say bismillah and eat in such case, just like in the hadith when rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam told the sahaba to say bismillah and eat? Some people although their relatives assure them that the meat they serve is halal, refuse to eat and the Muslim relatives/friends take great offence to this subhan'Allah. Of course no one here can give fatawa, but I'm just curious about your input on the matter.


The hadith that you mention refers to new Muslims and yet the Prophet(saas) said "Say Bismillah and eat it"

If this is the case about new Muslims what then about people that have grown up as Muslim.

I know that some people will not eat from their Muslim relatives who have abandoned their salat and other Islamic obligations.

Also, Um Ismail, I heard that in the Balkans, the condition of the Muslims were so bad that many used to eat pork. Is that true?

[Tauheed]

I have a question, what happens if one goes to their Muslim relatives or friends and doesn't 'know' about the meat they serve, shouldn't we say bismillah and eat in such case, just like in the hadith when rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam told the sahaba to say bismillah and eat? Some people although their relatives assure them that the meat they serve is halal, refuse to eat and the Muslim relatives/friends take great offence to this subhan'Allah. Of course no one here can give fatawa, but I'm just curious about your input on the matter.

I can't remember the explanation given for Hadith. In regards to people taking offence then no doubt this will be experienced. I equally find people take offence (in fact a lot worse) when I don't raise hands when paying condolence for a deceased to the family members.
the manner in which I view the issue of the food is that I am already a weak Muslim as it is and do not become further weakened with eating potentially Haraam food. I was reading a book on Zahibah a while back a the Scholar mentioned a few scholars that were well grounded in knowledge and he mentioned that upon examination of there lives it realized one thing they had in common was that they were very particular in regards to the consumption of Halaal food.
I am sure we are all aware of the affects of consuming Haraam.

[Um Ismail]

I don't know, I just think it could be extreme to "refuse" to eat from a Muslim relative or friend even though they assure the meat is halal bought from a muslim butcher etc. I mean unless the animal whose meat is being served is butchered right in front of our eyes each time we pay a visit how can one really "know" other than accept that their Muslim relatives/friends are not consuming haram meat and are telling the truth? I wonder what advice scholars would give in such matters.

[waziri]

subhanaAllah Ive never heard of anyone refusing to eat at their muslim friends or relatives house because they were unsure if the food was Halal or not.


I mean that would be very disrespectful,imagine you offered someone food at your home and they said "oh Im not sure what your offering is Halal so Ill take a rain check".

I would be offended :mad:


wasalam

[Um Ismail]

The hadith that you mention refers to new Muslims and yet the Prophet(saas) said "Say Bismillah and eat it"

If this is the case about new Muslims what then about people that have grown up as Muslim.


That was kind of my point akhi, if 'investigation' is not needed with the new Muslims then why would it be needed with those who grew up Muslim.
I know that some people will not eat from their Muslim relatives who have abandoned their salat and other Islamic obligations.

You know, many many "non-practising Muslims" won't pray, fast only in ramadan etc, but they will curse anyone who eats pork!!! How crazy is that?? But then again, no one really learned their religion and many imams just sought to many excuses and made people think praying is a matter of choice and such. This to the point that when a "common person" fulfilled their religious obligations, many would say "he is going to be an imam, or she will marry an imam" etc. You bring up a good point, I'd like to know the ruling in such cases.

Also, Um Ismail, I heard that in the Balkans, the condition of the Muslims were so bad that many used to eat pork. Is that true?


If you mean their religious condition yes wallah it was that bad akhi, but masha'Allah there were still a lot of good, practicing Muslims, although the majority were "Muslims at heart" as they say. But even most of those did not eat pork, as I described above. But many did and some still continue with it may Allah guide them. But if you mean economically no the condition was nowhere near that bad so this can not be their excuse at all.

[Um Ismail]

subhanaAllah Ive never heard of anyone refusing to eat at their muslim friends or relatives house because they were unsure if the food was Halal or not.


I mean that would be very disrespectful,imagine you offered someone food at your home and they said "oh Im not sure what your offering is Halal so Ill take a rain check".

I would be offended :mad:


wasalam

Assalamu alaykum

I agree akhi I wouldn't know what to do in such situation I would feel so hurt. But it does happen I know as unbelievable as it may sound, I know of such cases first hand.

[Tauheed]

With my immeadiate family they buy from a HMC certified butcher as do some of my friends, so Alhumdu lilla by informing them they are taking the precautions as well in what they eat. So I would not refuse to eat from their hoomes.

Its not that difficult as we have a organisation (HMC) that is making our life a lot easier, you can even purchase frozen foods by KQF and the like which are certified, so it is not as bad as you make it out to be Ukhti.

This action is my preference and I can't tell others to adopt the same approach if they don't want to. If one has looked into the effects of consuming potentially Haraam food and are still at ease with it, then that is there choice.

Alhumdu lilla I have caught out a few places after investigations who claimed that there chicken was non-stunned and in fact it turned out to be stunned.

I am sure you have come across many stories about Muslims deceiving Muslims.

When I tell you that I have to travel 12/13 miles to buy my meat you probably think that I am even more crazy and extreme.

Akh Wiziri, you're probably glad that you don't know me then if you would be offended. (smile)

Wiziri you're alright as you got some certified butchers in Birmingham any way.

Check out www.halalmc.org

[juwairiyah]

bismillah

assalamu'alaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh

we went through lessons in bulughul maraam and i dont remember the exact hadeeth but I did learn that we shd not be suspicious whetehr a muslim's income is halal or not ..allahualam

[Um Ismail]

With my immeadiate family they buy from a HMC certified butcher as do some of my friends, so Alhumdu lilla by informing them they are taking the precautions as well in what they eat. So I would not refuse to eat from their hoomes.

Its not that difficult as we have a organisation (HMC) that is making our life a lot easier, you can even purchase frozen foods by KQF and the like which are certified, so it is not as bad as you make it out to be Ukhti.

This action is my preference and I can't tell others to adopt the same approach if they don't want to. If one has looked into the effects of consuming potentially Haraam food and are still at ease with it, then that is there choice.

Alhumdu lilla I have caught out a few places after investigations who claimed that there chicken was non-stunned and in fact it turned out to be stunned.

I am sure you have come across many stories about Muslims deceiving Muslims.

When I tell you that I have to travel 12/13 miles to buy my meat you probably think that I am even more crazy and extreme.

Akh Wiziri, you're probably glad that you don't know me then if you would be offended. (smile)

Wiziri you're alright as you got some certified butchers in Birmingham any way.

Check out www.halalmc.org (http://www.halalmc.org)

No akhi masha'Allah I wouldn't say what you do is extreme, but how about if you go to visit a distant ( practicing) Muslim relative, or friend, and they serve you a plate of food, will you eat it or investigate first? And will you do it each time you visit them? That is what I am talking about, and I am not trying to make it out to be bad, akhi it IS this bad with some people I know. I mean it's almost like telling a Muslim "I'm not sure if you're Muslim and I suspect you are deceiving me into eating haram, your food is haram, etc" without any substantiated proof. I just wouldn't have the audacity to ask to see the label or speak to their butcher before I eat the food they offered me, for one, it is not legislated in Islam that I must do so (in fact it could be a sin), and two, because of this, I just don't believe that Allah would hold a person accountable for not having investigated first, in fact the sin would be on the one who deceived me, Allahu A'lam.

Sister Juwairiyah I heard/read (can't remember which) the same thing, something to the extent that the basic principle is that the food of a Muslim is halal in itself. In this case of course unless a proof exists to show otherwise, so just as you said.

NOTE TO ALL: I don't see this as arguing or debating, I think we are having a good and healthy discussion here and that is the tone I am speaking in.

[Tauheed]

No akhi masha'Allah I wouldn't say what you do is extreme, but how about if you go to visit a distant ( practicing) Muslim relative, or friend, and they serve you a plate of food, will you eat it or investigate first? And will you do it each time you visit them? That is what I am talking about, and I am not trying to make it out to be bad, akhi it IS this bad with some people I know. I mean it's almost like telling a Muslim "I'm not sure if you're Muslim and I suspect you are deceiving me into eating haram, your food is haram, etc" without any substantiated proof. I just wouldn't have the audacity to ask to see the label or speak to their butcher before I eat the food they offered me, for one, it is not legislated in Islam that I must do so (in fact it could be a sin), and two, because of this, I just don't believe that Allah would hold a person accountable for not having investigated first, in fact the sin would be on the one who deceived me, Allahu A'lam.

Sister Juwairiyah I heard/read (can't remember which) the same thing, something to the extent that the basic principle is that the food of a Muslim is halal in itself. In this case of course unless a proof exists to show otherwise, so just as you said.

NOTE TO ALL: I don't see this as arguing or debating, I think we are having a good and healthy discussion here and that is the tone I am speaking in.

I just happen to visit some relatives of the nature you mentioned a couple of weeks ago. I just called them up before and explained the situation and we had vegetables and some lentils.

I think what sister Juwariyah is stating is an all together different subject.

There is no sin involved in what I am doing as I have confirmed my actions with a Mufti.

You need to consider that it is a known fact that some Muslims are selling Haraam in the name of Halaal to other Muslims and in addition to this the amount of stunned meat that is going around is unbelievable. These people are just interested in making money they don’t care about anything else.

I think enough is said, I don’t look down upon any other Muslims as only Allah all mighty knows my faults. I just do what I can, and what others do is their prerogative. I can just inform others of the reality around us.

Allah knows best.

[Um Ismail]

I just happen to visit some relatives of the nature you mentioned a couple of weeks ago. I just called them up before and explained the situation and we had vegetables and some lentils.

I think what sister Juwariyah is stating is an all together different subject.

There is no sin involved in what I am doing as I have confirmed my actions with a Mufti.

You need to consider that it is a known fact that some Muslims are selling Haraam in the name of Halaal to other Muslims and in addition to this the amount of stunned meat that is going around is unbelievable. These people are just interested in making money they don’t care about anything else.

I think enough is said, I don’t look down upon any other Muslims as only Allah all mighty knows my faults. I just do what I can, and what others do is their prerogative. I can just inform others of the reality around us.

Allah knows best.

Alhamdulillah I don't object to your approach akhi. At least you called them up and informed them ahead of time masha'Allah. I think we're talking about two different situations in a way, and I don't think what you do involves a sin, Allahu A'lam.

And you're right, such treachery is sadly widespread nowadays, Muslims knowingly selling haram meat.

[Tauheed]

"and I don't think what you do involves a sin"

Sorry had just clarify a point. The Mufti said that if one was not to eat at someones house in this reality it would NOT be a sin. So if someone turned up at a relatives house and was presented meat and he refused then he is not sinful.

[Um Ismail]

"and I don't think what you do involves a sin"

Sorry had just clarify a point. The Mufti said that if one was not to eat at someones house in this reality it would NOT be a sin. So if someone turned up at a relatives house and was presented meat and he refused then he is not sinful.

Jazakom Allah khayr. But I was not talking about not eating being a sin, I am talking about an unjust suspicion being a sin. Allahu A'lam.

[AbuBakr Jazairi]

La hawla wa la qowata ila bi ALLAH!!!

What was that man! can anybody tell them there is something called mercy!

Astaghfiro ALLAH