Christians worship "Moon god"???!!

[Sawtul Islam]

Assalamo 'alaykom


We know that some misinformed Christians think, and often accuse Muslims of worshipping a "moon god", and their only "evidence" is that some Muslims use the moon as a symbol.

Obviously the Qur'an forbids the worship of both the Sun and the Moon, as well as anything else besides Him:

"Among His Signs are the Night and the Day and the sun and moon. Prostrate not to the Sun and the Moon but Prostrate to Allah Who created them if it is Him ye wish to serve." (Qur'an 41:37)

So what about the moon symbols we keep seeing everywhere?

Well the Moon was not originally an Islamic symbol and was not used as such until a few hundred years after the death of the Prophet (saw). In fact some Muslims (I think during the time of the Ottomons) simply adobted the symbol from non-Muslims.

But here's where it gets interesting... Muslims actually seem to have taken this symbol from CHRISTIANS!!!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/85/Constantinople-Banner.svg/504px-Constantinople-Banner.svg.png

From Wikipedia:

In 670 BC, the citizens of Byzantium made the crescent moon as their state symbol, after an important victory. Byzantium was the first governing state to use the crescent moon as its national symbol. In 330 AD Constantine I added the Virgin Mary's star to the flag. Byzantium would then also be the first attested nation or empire to use the combination of the crescent moon and star together as an emblem.

The crescent moon and star was not completely abandoned by the Christian world after the fall of Constantinople. To date the official flag of the Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem is a labarum of white, a church building with two towers, and on either side of the arms, at the top, are the outline in black of a crescent moon facing center and a star with rays


Before the Christians the moon symbol was used by some pagans, including moon worshippers. Many years after Muslims conquered Byzantium some Muslims thought it's a good idea to use the symbol since Muslims used the lunar calendar, and gradually its use became more and more popular.


So anyways, before the Christians accuse Muslims of worshipping the moon they should accuse themselves of such since they used the symbol long before Muslims.

As the Bible says:
Judge not lest thee be judged.

[morbius]

Yes, moon and star was a symbol of Constantinople and yes, Turks accepted it as their symbol over time and yes, thanks to the Turkish domination over the Islamic world moon and star eventually became the symbol of Islam.

And yes, Allah used to be moon god in the days of Arab paganism, before Muhammad “transformed” him into God of Jews and Christians. Cult of Allah is very old, even Aristotle in his chronicles mentions that Arabs above all their gods worship most god of the moon and goddess of the sun, whose children are stars.

[asharee_salafi]

Morbious, what are you talking about! Lets see that quote from aristotle then. No one asserted that the pre Islamic arabs worshippe dthe moon, and even if they did, read surah Ibraheem of the Qu'ran, whereby God says the moon is created and hence you worship the creator....the sillyness of these arguemnts only makes Islaam stronger!

[Sawtul Islam]

And yes, Allah used to be moon god in the days of Arab paganism, before Muhammad “transformed” him into God of Jews and Christians. Cult of Allah is very old, even Aristotle in his chronicles mentions that Arabs above all their gods worship most god of the moon and goddess of the sun, whose children are stars.

Show me your evidence.

I have heard others saying things like this and when I did some research on it I found that those who make such accusations confuse the word ILAH with the word ALLAH.

ILAH simply means "god", while ALLAH is THE GOD. In the Shahadah we say "There is no ILAH except ALLAH".

So the "moon god" was a false ILAH, same as the "sun god" and others, but there is no evidence that they were ever called ALLAH.


Also even if we assume that the pagan Arabs worshipped a "moon god" and called him "Allah", it still doesn't prove anything because the pagan Arabs had corrupted the religion of Ishamael/Isma'il.

Isma'il/Ishmael had the same religion as Ibrahim/Abraham, so he worshipped the same God as Abraham and the Israelites/Jews. Over time the religion of Ishamel was corrupted by the Arabs, same way that the religion of Isaac was corrupted by the Israelites and the religion of Jesus corrupted by the Romans.

So even if we assume that before Islam some Arabs called the Moon "Allah", it would simply mean that they altered the religion of Ishamel in the same way the Roman Catholics associate the Sun with God. In other words, just because the Roman Catholics paint a Sun around Jesus whom they believe is God and draw portraits of him in the form of pagan "sun gods" doesnt mean that Jesus himself was a "Sun God".

But of course there is no evidence (as far as I know) that the Arabs called the Moon "Allah", and even if they did it wouldn't mean anything if you think about it.

Another example: English speaking Catholics use the word GOD for Jesus and English speaking Muslims use the same word for Allah. By your logic that would "prove" that Muslims worship Jesus!!

In the end it's not the name but the attributes that matter the most. Muslims worship a God who does not rest, is not weakened, is all powerful and all knowing and nothing is like Him. If your idea of God is other than such a being then you may actually be worshipping a Demon/Jinn who is created.

[Nu7]

Morbius is an ignoramus who keeps repeating the same bs over and over again eventhough he has been refuted a million times.

[gag order]

Show me your evidence.

I have heard others saying things like this and when I did some research on it I found that those who make such accusations confuse the word ILAH with the word ALLAH.

ILAH simply means "god", while ALLAH is THE GOD. In the Shahadah we say "There is no ILAH except ALLAH".

So the "moon god" was a false ILAH, same as the "sun god" and others, but there is no evidence that they were ever called ALLAH.


Also even if we assume that the pagan Arabs worshipped a "moon god" and called him "Allah", it still doesn't prove anything because the pagan Arabs had corrupted the religion of Ishamael/Isma'il.

Isma'il/Ishmael had the same religion as Ibrahim/Abraham, so he worshipped the same God as Abraham and the Israelites/Jews. Over time the religion of Ishamel was corrupted by the Arabs, same way that the religion of Isaac was corrupted by the Israelites and the religion of Jesus corrupted by the Romans.

So even if we assume that before Islam some Arabs called the Moon "Allah", it would simply mean that they altered the religion of Ishamel in the same way the Roman Catholics associate the Sun with God. In other words, just because the Roman Catholics paint a Sun around Jesus whom they believe is God and draw portraits of him in the form of pagan "sun gods" doesnt mean that Jesus himself was a "Sun God".

But of course there is no evidence (as far as I know) that the Arabs called the Moon "Allah", and even if they did it wouldn't mean anything if you think about it.

Another example: English speaking Catholics use the word GOD for Jesus and English speaking Muslims use the same word for Allah. By your logic that would "prove" that Muslims worship Jesus!!

In the end it's not the name but the attributes that matter the most. Muslims worship a God who does not rest, is not weakened, is all powerful and all knowing and nothing is like Him. If your idea of God is other than such a being then you may actually be worshipping a Demon/Jinn who is created.jk
your research on this topic has benfitted me greatly....

[manZERO]

Yes, moon and star was a symbol of Constantinople and yes, Turks accepted it as their symbol over time and yes, thanks to the Turkish domination over the Islamic world moon and star eventually became the symbol of Islam.

And yes, Allah used to be moon god in the days of Arab paganism, before Muhammad “transformed” him into God of Jews and Christians. Cult of Allah is very old, even Aristotle in his chronicles mentions that Arabs above all their gods worship most god of the moon and goddess of the sun, whose children are stars.

pagans worshipped yhwh and thought he had a female consort.
in the ot the jews leave yhwh for baal because they think baal answers prayers better than yhwh.the flesh god you worship is cut from the same cloth you find in greek paganism.jews and muslims concept of God is radically different from christian concept of God.there is abundant evidence that jews before Islam considered ALLAH to be the God who deserves to be worshipped.if the jews thought "muhammad 'transformed' him into the god of the jews and christians" why do jewish translations of the torah render elohim as Allah? wouldn't that be sacreligious ?

your research on this topic has benfitted me greatly....


you might want to do further research at

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/hubal.html

Is Hubal The Same As Allah?

M S M Saifullah & ʿAbdullah David

and

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/rhmnn.html

Rahmānān (RHMNN) - An Ancient South Arabian Moon God?

M S M Saifullah & ‘Abdullah David

[aboo ayaat al hindee]

allaah is the name of the one and only true god, the creator of all that is in existence. the arabs did worship allaah the true god way before the qur'an had been revealed. they were haneef and muslim, years later a man introduced idol worship to them, this is why they still revered the kabaa and hajj because they claimed to follow the religion of ibraheem and ismail. the arabs were like any other nation who intially worshipped allaah but later generations began to introduce new gods and practices which lead them away from tawheed.

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

pagans worshipped yhwh and thought he had a female consort.
in the ot the jews leave yhwh for baal because they think baal answers prayers better than yhwh.the flesh god you worship is cut from the same cloth you find in greek paganism.jews and muslims concept of God is radically different from christian concept of God.there is abundant evidence that jews before Islam considered ALLAH to be the God who deserves to be worshipped.and why jewish translation of torah and Qur'an render ALLAH as Elohim?





you might want to do further research at

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/hubal.html

Is Hubal The Same As Allah?

M S M Saifullah & ʿAbdullah David

and

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/rhmnn.html

Rahmānān (RHMNN) - An Ancient South Arabian Moon God?

M S M Saifullah & ‘Abdullah David

Also see this thorough scholarly discussion of the moon-god myth:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/moongod.html

[manZERO]

We know that some misinformed Christians think, and often accuse Muslims of worshipping a "moon god", and their only "evidence" is that some Muslims use the moon as a symbol.

they accuse us of worshipping a "mood god" but don't see the fact that the members that make up thier god CONVERSE with each other like the hindu gods and incarnate like the hindu gods.it is not blasphemy for a christian to believe that jesus incarnated in the form of a woman.

[Um Ismail]

I'm sure Morbius will come up with "evidence", they always do.Who is better at distortion then the Christians!

However, this so called evidence is a bunch of made up you know what. This is what the Christians tend to base their conclusions on- a bunch of tales, little reasoning and distortion with no end. I think I read up on this rubbish a long time ago, there were supposedly some "archeological" findings and what not (not that anyone has seen it other then those who make the claim of course), and this has been refuted a thousand times.

On more point, isn't the moon of female gender in the arabic language? I'm not sure, I think I read that somewhere. If so, what sense does the rubbish Morbius just bothered us with make? Besides Allah clearly telling us in the Qur'an that the moon is from His creation, and it is clear in the Qur'an that the creation is not to be worshipped!

With this "logic", the Arab Christians are not believers since their word for God is also Allah! In their Bible!!!

I can't believe this rubbish, but guidance is a blessing from Allah, He guides whom He wills and leaves astray those who don't care to take heed.

[Nu7]

I bet you he won't even bother to click on any of the links that have been posted.

[Um Ismail]

Yeah, he knows it all already...........not.

This guy is just not consistent when you look at all the threads he posted in. On one hand he tries to come across as objective, perhaps even open to new information, yet here he insults Allah and knows he insults Muslims with that too. I think that is the whole purpose of his comment to be honest.

A wolf disguised as a lamb.

[morbius]

Show me your evidence.

I have read this some time ago in Aristotle’s work “Barbarian Customs” (saved only in fragments) which he wrote based on testimonies of Macedonian soldiers who fought in Asia with Alexander the great. I’m trying to find the exact quote on the internet to show you, but Google keeps spamming me with hundreds of sites on Aristotelian influence on Arab philosophy. I will find it eventually.
So the "moon god" was a false ILAH, same as the "sun god" and others, but there is no evidence that they were ever called ALLAH.
I don’t know enough about Arabian history to be able to claim that Arabs called their moon good Allah, but it does make sense to me. I’ve read before an article on Arabian influence on ancient Greek civilization and among the Arabic gods that Greek adopted into their religion seems to be moon god Apollo, Hellenized version of Arabic god Allah.
From original Al-lah > Αποαλλα > Απολλο
In the end it's not the name but the attributes that matter the most.
Of course. I can’t see why we are even arguing over this.
What is clear and what we should be able to agree on is that god Allah did exist in Arabian paganism. Was he moon god, sun god or earth god is of little importance.

[morbius]

Morbius is an ignoramus who keeps repeating the same bs over and over again eventhough he has been refuted a million times.

This is about 10th time you do this. I have a debate with people here, they give me serious answers on serious questions and then you jump in with a “morbius is stupid” one-liner.
If you don’t have anything beneficial to say, it would be better for all if you just wouldn’t say anything.

[Nu7]

This is about 10th time you do this. I have a debate with people here, they give me serious answers on serious questions and then you jump in with a “morbius is stupid” one-liner.
If you don’t have anything beneficial to say, it would be better for all if you just wouldn’t say anything.

I think I am speaking for most of the members when I say that you are an ignoramus who is in no way interested in a serious, honest debate.

You make stupid claims like "Allah is the moon God", without providing any proof whatsoever, and when people refute you, you either crawl back to your hole or you persist in blaspheming against Allah, 'Azza wa Jal.

Case in point:


I don’t know enough about Arabian history to be able to claim that Arabs called their moon good Allah, but it does make sense to me.

1. You admit that you have absolutely no knowledge about Arabian history, yet you still claim to know for a fact that Arabs had a moon God named "Allah".

2. You have no proof, other than that it "makes sense to you".

Who in their right mind would even debate with you?? You deserve what you get, and you get what you deserve. Unless you change your ways and humble yourself of course.

[morbius]

On more point, isn't the moon of female gender in the arabic language? I'm not sure, I think I read that somewhere. If so, what sense does the rubbish Morbius just bothered us with make?

Well isn’t the moon in our language in masculine gender, yet our ancestors believed in goddess of the moon?
With this "logic", the Arab Christians are not believers since their word for God is also Allah! In their Bible!!!
What does it matter how you call God? In Christianity God doesn’t have a name, you can call him Suzan if you want.
This guy is just not consistent when you look at all the threads he posted in. On one hand he tries to come across as objective, perhaps even open to new information, yet here he insults Allah and knows he insults Muslims with that too.
I’m actually trying my best not to offend you, but you people are just so easily offended that I can’t avoid it if I want to discuss religion with you.

[Abd al-Haqq Marshall]

Allah. Eloah. Elohim. El.

Learn Semitic linguistics.

[morbius]

Who in their right mind would even debate with you??
Ok, than don’t debate with me. Since you are obviously so smart, just leave us stupid people to have our debate in peace.

[Nu7]

Ok, than don’t debate with me. Since you are obviously so smart, just leave us stupid people to have our debate in peace.

And I won't, just don't complain when I mock you from time to time.

[Brother_Mujahid]

Morbius, you once again have demonstrated your severe degree of intellectual dishonesty. Anything to get a jab at Islam. Of course the Arab pagans believed in Allah, this can be openly found mentioned in the Qur'an. They recognized Allah as the supreme deity and creator of the universe, but they worshiped lesser invented deities in association with him (al-Lat, al-'Uzza, Hubal, etc). If Allah was the name for some pagan moon god, then why was this challenge never raised by the Jews, who were quick to find anything to attack the Prophet of Allah (s.a.w) and Islam with? If Allah is the name of a pagan moon god, then why is this the same name for God used by Arabic speaking Jews and Christians? This whole "moon god" foolishness is the invention of right-wing Christian missionaries who wished to divert attention away from their own pagan beliefs, such as worshiping a man and their belief in 3-in-1 gods.

[Suhaib Jobst]

In Christianity God doesn’t have a name, you can call him Suzan if you want.

This is the first time I have ever read this assertion. Even the Bible censures in the harshest language those who, like you, play with the names by which He is known (Deuteronomy 5:11). Is the Name of the God not Holy (Leviticus 22:32)? Is His Name not sanctified (Matthew 6:9)? The Bible proclaims that God is One and must be called upon with the Names He chose for Himself (Joel 2:32, Romans 10:13).

The Old Testament refers to Yahweh (Deuteronomy 6:5). This has been rendered into Greek as kyrios (Lord), such as in the English translation (Mark 12:29). There is another verse where Moses (alaihi sallam) inquired as to His Name and the response was "I am what I am" (Exodus 3:14).

However, the Bible contradicts itself on this point. Another verse claims that it was revealed to Moses (Exodus 6:3), while yet another says it was known since the time of Enoch (Genesis 4:26).

The Holy Qur'an is clear on this matter, just as it is clear on all others, clarifying the inconsistencies which exist in the previous, adulterated books. Hence the Name that was revealed to Moses (alaihi sallam) was 'Allah' (see Qur'an, 20:14, 28:30). So this brings us to the origins of the name Allah:

"The name's origin can be traced back to the earliest Semitic writings in which the word for god was Il or El, the latter being an Old Testament synonym for Yahweh" (The New Encyclopedia Britannica, 1990 ed., vol. 1, p. 276).

This is also the context used throughout the New Testament, where the Absolute Unity of the One God is made clear and that Jesus (alaihi sallam) is His Prophet. It is interesting that even in the alleged verse used to support the idea of crucifixion (or, crucifiction), the name used is 'Eli, Eli' (Matthew 27:46). So it becomes clear that your assertion has no proof even in the distorted Bible, that you are playing with words whereas the One God is far beyond comparing Him with the human beings, such as what you do.

[manZERO]

seems to be moon god Apollo, Hellenized version of Arabic god Allah.
From original Al-lah > Αποαλλα > Απολλο

i don't understand what you are talking about. what connection are you trying to make? what etymological connection does the noun ALLAH have with
Αποαλλα?

[Um Ismail]

Well isn’t the moon in our language in masculine gender, yet our ancestors believed in goddess of the moon?

Whose ancestors? Not mine.

What does it matter how you call God? In Christianity God doesn’t have a name, you can call him Suzan if you want.

You're supposed to, even as a Christian, to call on God with the names He chose for Himself, according to what the Bible teaches. It would be considered blasphemy in Christianity to refer to God as Suzan!

I’m actually trying my best not to offend you, but you people are just so easily offended that I can’t avoid it if I want to discuss religion with you.

If you really are trying your best then we appreciate that and excuse you for that. Look, I do not agree even with Muslims who, when debating with Christians, do so by way of insult. What kind of a person would I be to go to a room full of Christians and then offend their god and beliefs? If I can't debate with them with evidences in a polite manner, then it is better for me to abstain in the first place. Allah Himself orders us in fact to not argue with them and speak in a way that is best. So I don't agree with Muslims either who insult other peoples' beliefs yet can't even provide any evidences for their stance.
And of course we would be insulted Morbius, we take God seriously, and there is a way to discuss Islam, Christianity or any other religion for that matter that is better.
I don't have a problem with you trying to discuss and debate with us and no one here is forcing you to accept our belief, but the least you can do is provide evidencec for what you say, then maybe even the insults would be overlooked and evidence would be discussed. I mean would you accept anyone to adopt your beliefs on any issue, not just religion, by merely telling them "ok I know it doesn't make sense to you and I don't have evidence but it makes sense to me"?
But note that I do know that what you say is backed with some 'evidence' and I know you did not merely make it up (others did), but again, please try and provide at least a little bit of it in the future, so that we may know what exactly you're talking about.

So I advise myself and others to excuse you for the 'slips' since you are not a Muslim to begin with, but I also ask you to overlook our anger and feeling offended at times when you come at us like this.

[morbius]

And I won't, just don't complain when I mock you from time to time.

Mocking people is a major sin in Christianity and Islam also discourages it.
Mohammad said: “Whoever is kind to His creatures, God is kind to him; therefore be kind to man on earth, whether good or bad; and being kind to the bad, is to withhold him from badness, thus in heaven you will be treated kindly.”.

How does your kind of behavior benefit you or people around you?

[morbius]

Morbius, you once again have demonstrated your severe degree of intellectual dishonesty. Anything to get a jab at Islam. Of course the Arab pagans believed in Allah, this can be openly found mentioned in the Qur'an. They recognized Allah as the supreme deity and creator of the universe, but they worshiped lesser invented deities in association with him (al-Lat, al-'Uzza, Hubal, etc). If Allah was the name for some pagan moon god, then why was this challenge never raised by the Jews, who were quick to find anything to attack the Prophet of Allah (s.a.w) and Islam with? If Allah is the name of a pagan moon god, then why is this the same name for God used by Arabic speaking Jews and Christians? This whole "moon god" foolishness is the invention of right-wing Christian missionaries who wished to divert attention away from their own pagan beliefs, such as worshiping a man and their belief in 3-in-1 gods.

Why am I dishonest?
You yourself say that Allah was the supreme deity of the pagan Arabs. Old histories say that Arabs worhip moon-god above others, so is it dishonest to conclude that Allah was probably this moon god? Even OT speaks of moon-god worshipers and warns Jews against accepting their cult (Deut. 4:19;17:3; II Kings. 21:3,5; 23:5; Jer. 8:2; 19:13; Zeph. 1:5, etc.)

Take a look at this statue unearthed in Hazor (in Israeli occupied territories).
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/wp-content/upload/hazorfigure.jpg

It is probably a statue of a priest. Now look at the croissant moon on his chest and his gaze towards the sky and tell me, who do you think he’s praying to?

[Nu7]

Mocking people is a major sin in Christianity and Islam also discourages it.
Mohammad said: “Whoever is kind to His creatures, God is kind to him; therefore be kind to man on earth, whether good or bad; and being kind to the bad, is to withhold him from badness, thus in heaven you will be treated kindly.”.

How does your kind of behavior benefit you or people around you?

"My kind of behaviour" is only directed towards those who show no respect for others. Now stop being a hypocrit and admit that your only purpose of being here is to mock islam and muslims instead of crying when you are treated with no respect. You're not here to learn or educate yourself on islam, you're here to "refute", insult and belittle.

If you want respect, humble yourself and come with evidence next time you have something to say about islam. "Probably", "it makes sense to me" and "maybe" is absolutely worthless.

Have you even bothered to read any of the material that has been provided by the brothers and sisters?

[morbius]

This is the first time I have ever read this assertion. Even the Bible censures in the harshest language those who, like you, play with the names by which He is known (Deuteronomy 5:11).

Deuteronomy 5:11 says:
'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD will not leave him unpunished who takes His name in vain.”

First you need to understand that Jews in common day speech for god used words such as Adonai (Lord) or Elohim. Name Yahweh (meaning “He is”) was not to be uttered except in few special occasions, such as curtain ceremonies and situations when one’s life was in emanate danger. Using name Yahweh without a great need was a major sin, while cursing God by using name Yahweh was one of the three stoning offences in Judaism.
Monty Paytons have a hilarious sketch in which guy is to be stoned for saying: “Wife, Jehova himself would be happy with the dinner you cooked”. :)
The Bible proclaims that God is One and must be called upon with the Names He chose for Himself (Joel 2:32, Romans 10:13).
Joel 2:32
And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the LORD Will be delivered; For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem There will be those who escape, As the LORD has said, Even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So, as you can see for yourself, those verses do not say what you claim.

Suhaib, in Christianity God is nameless, he has no need for a human attribute such as a name. That’s why we call Him names such as the Lord, or just plain simply God. If you want to call Him Allah, it is fine too. And there is nothing wrong with name Suzan, a good friend of mine is called Suzan.

[Brother_Mujahid]

Why am I dishonest?

Come now morbius, we both know the answer to that question.

You yourself say that Allah was the supreme deity of the pagan Arabs.

I said they recognized him as the supreme power and creator of the universe, in the same way that the ancient Greek and Romans (see the Timaeus of Plato) recognized that there was a supreme deity who created the universe. The problem that both of the groups had were that instead of devoting their worship solely to God\Allah, they invented lesser deities to worship.

Old histories say that Arabs worhip moon-god above others, so is it dishonest to conclude that Allah was probably this moon god?

Yes it is, and you know that.

Even OT speaks of moon-god worshipers and warns Jews against accepting their cult (Deut. 4:19;17:3; II Kings. 21:3,5; 23:5; Jer. 8:2; 19:13; Zeph. 1:5, etc.)

Yes, and?

Take a look at this statue unearthed in Hazor (in Israeli occupied territories).
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/wp-content/upload/hazorfigure.jpg

It is probably a statue of a priest. Now look at the croissant moon on his chest and his gaze towards the sky and tell me, who do you think he’s praying to?

Again, the relevance?

[manZERO]

Even OT speaks of moon-god worshipers and warns Jews against accepting their cult (Deut. 4:19;17:3; II Kings. 21:3,5; 23:5; Jer. 8:2; 19:13; Zeph. 1:5, etc.)




Take a look at this statue unearthed in Hazor (in Israeli occupied territories).


It is probably a statue of a priest. Now look at the croissant moon on his chest and his gaze towards the sky and tell me, who do you think he’s praying to?

those occupied territories onces belonged to cananites and palestinian jews.i assume the priest is calling out to YHWH.how are the occupied territories part of arabia? i told you before that pagans worshipped yhwh of the ot. why don't you make a connection with jewish wall wailing and pagan wall wailing?


Suhaib, in Christianity God is nameless, he has no need for a human attribute such as a name.

but the 3rd bit of trinity called the "son" could only forgive men by becoming a man.in the forgiveness plan, the son commited suicide.

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

Why am I dishonest?
You yourself say that Allah was the supreme deity of the pagan Arabs. Old histories say that Arabs worhip moon-god above others, so is it dishonest to conclude that Allah was probably this moon god? Even OT speaks of moon-god worshipers and warns Jews against accepting their cult (Deut. 4:19;17:3; II Kings. 21:3,5; 23:5; Jer. 8:2; 19:13; Zeph. 1:5, etc.)

Take a look at this statue unearthed in Hazor (in Israeli occupied territories).
http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/wp-content/upload/hazorfigure.jpg

It is probably a statue of a priest. Now look at the croissant moon on his chest and his gaze towards the sky and tell me, who do you think he’s praying to?


Have you read the links provided? (i.e. http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/moongod.html)

[morbius]

i don't understand what you are talking about. what connection are you trying to make? what etymological connection does the noun ALLAH have with
Αποαλλα?

“Apo” is a prefix mening “from”. Apollo literarily means “from Allah”.
Greeks used to buy silk, incense and spices from the Arab merchants, in the process influencing each other in the fields such as religion, alphabet and mathematics.

[Um Ismail]

When he saw the moon rising up, he said: "This is my lord." But when it set, he said: "Unless my Lord guides me, I shall surely be among the erring people." (Al-An'am 6:77)

(He is the) Cleaver of the daybreak. He has appointed the night for resting, and the sun and the moon for reckoning. Such is the measuring of the All*Mighty, the All*Knowing. (Al-An'am 6:96)

Indeed your Lord is Allâh, Who created the heavens and the earth in Six Days, and then He Istawâ (rose over) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty). He brings the night as a cover over the day, seeking it rapidly, and (He created) the sun, the moon, the stars subjected to His Command. Surely, His is the Creation and Commandment. Blessed be Allâh, the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists)! (Al-A'raf 7:54)


It is He Who made the sun a shining thing and the moon as a light and measured out its (their) stages, that you might know the number of years and the reckoning. Allâh did not create this but in truth. He explains the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail for people who have knowledge. (Yunus 10:5)

Allâh is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that you can see. Then, He Istawâ (rose above) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty). He has subjected the sun and the moon (to continue going round)! Each running (its course) for a term appointed. He regulates all affairs, explaining the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) in detail, that you may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord. (Ra'd 13:2)

And He has made the sun and the moon, both constantly pursuing their courses, to be of service to you; and He has made the night and the day, to be of service to you. (Ibrahim 14:33)

And He has subjected to you the night and the day, the sun and the moon; and the stars are subjected by His Command. Surely, in this are proofs for people who understand. (An-Nahl 16:12)

And He it is Who has created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit floating. (Al-Anbiya 21:33)

See you not that to Allâh prostrates whoever is in the heavens and whoever is on the earth, and the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and Ad-Dawâb (moving living creatures, beasts, etc.), and many of mankind? But there are many (men) on whom the punishment is justified. And whomsoever Allâh disgraces, none can honour him. Verily! Allâh does what He wills. (Al-Hajj 22:18)

If you were to ask them: "Who has created the heavens and the earth and subjected the sun and the moon?" They will surely reply: "Allâh." How then are they deviating (as polytheists and disbelievers)? (Al-'Ankabut 29:61)

See you not (O Muhammad SAW) that Allâh merges the night into the day (i.e. the decrease in the hours of the night are added in the hours of the day), and merges the day into the night (i.e. the decrease in the hours of day are added in the hours of night), and has subjected the sun and the moon, each running its course for a term appointed; and that Allâh is All*Aware of what you do. (Luqman 31:29)

He merges the night into the day (i.e. the decrease in the hours of the night are added to the hours of the day), and He merges the day into the night (i.e. the decrease in the hours of the day are added to the hours of the night). And He has subjected the sun and the moon, each runs its course for a term appointed. Such is Allâh your Lord; His is the kingdom. And those, whom you invoke or call upon instead of Him, own not even a Qitmîr (the thin membrane over the date*stone). (Fatir 35:13)


And the moon, We have measured for it mansions (to traverse) till it returns like the old dried curved date stalk. (Ya-Sin 36:39)

It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit. (Ya-Sin 36:40)


He has created the heavens and the earth with truth. He makes the night to go in the day and makes the day to go in the night. And He has subjected the sun and the moon. Each running (on a fixed course) for an appointed term. Verily, He is the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving. (Az-Zumar 39:5)


And from among His Signs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Prostrate not to the sun nor to the moon, but prostrate to Allâh Who created them, if you (really) worship Him. (Fussilat 41:37)


Can any sane person after all this still believe that Allah was formerly a moon-god and Muslims adopted this into their religion? The Qur'an itself refutes such blasphemy, and it does not matter at this point in all honesty what or whom the pagan arabs worshipped.

Morbius, what I think you don't understand is that the pagan arabs before islam came did in fact believe in One God as the creator of all, and they did in fact believe that he is to be worshipped. HOWEVER, they used to make idol -gods for whom they believed that they would intercede for them to Allah. In fact, they did not believe that they are worshipping the idols, they used to say "we do not worship them, they are only our intercessors", however Allah indeed called it worshipping of false gods who cannot bring any good or repel any harm. This type of idol worship is not peculiar to the arab pagans alone, it goes back to the times of Nuh (Noah) alayhi salam. Same as the Christians today who believe in God the Father and say Isa alayhi salam is the right hand of God and that he is the son of God, and some even say "we don't worship Jesus, we only go to God through him as there is no other way to get to God the Father but through Jesus, and Jesus himself said that". As if their blasphemy wasn't enough, they slander Isa alayhi salam also. So yeah, basically, the arab pagans believed in Allah as the Lord and Creator, however they appointed intercessors believing they can bring good or repel harm. And if Allah, praise be to Him and far is He above what is ascribed to Him, was indeed a moon-god, the supreme deity, and Muhammad this false Prophet that you non-Muslims claim, don't you then think that he would have abolished all other gods and kept the moon-god without going through the trouble of changing his concept, don't you think he would have said 'worship the moon and the moon only, that is your god"! Far is he from what is ascribed to him!

[morbius]

Whose ancestors? Not mine.

You are of Turkish blood? I naturally assumed that you are of Slavic origin.
You're supposed to, even as a Christian, to call on God with the names He chose for Himself, according to what the Bible teaches. It would be considered blasphemy in Christianity to refer to God as Suzan!
Like I’ve already explain, that is not true.
If you really are trying your best then we appreciate that and excuse you for that. Look, I do not agree even with Muslims who, when debating with Christians, do so by way of insult. What kind of a person would I be to go to a room full of Christians and then offend their god and beliefs? If I can't debate with them with evidences in a polite manner, then it is better for me to abstain in the first place. Allah Himself orders us in fact to not argue with them and speak in a way that is best. So I don't agree with Muslims either who insult other peoples' beliefs yet can't even provide any evidences for their stance.
And of course we would be insulted Morbius, we take God seriously, and there is a way to discuss Islam, Christianity or any other religion for that matter that is better.
I don't have a problem with you trying to discuss and debate with us and no one here is forcing you to accept our belief, but the least you can do is provide evidencec for what you say, then maybe even the insults would be overlooked and evidence would be discussed. I mean would you accept anyone to adopt your beliefs on any issue, not just religion, by merely telling them "ok I know it doesn't make sense to you and I don't have evidence but it makes sense to me"?
But note that I do know that what you say is backed with some 'evidence' and I know you did not merely make it up (others did), but again, please try and provide at least a little bit of it in the future, so that we may know what exactly you're talking about.

So I advise myself and others to excuse you for the 'slips' since you are not a Muslim to begin with, but I also ask you to overlook our anger and feeling offended at times when you come at us like this.
I’ve been debating with Muslims both in real life and on the net and I can say this much – it’s incredible pain in the butt. The arrogance and stubbornness of a lot of Muslims in arguing is so big that it makes trying to explain them something obvious is as pleasurable as banging my head against the wall. I would so gladly just give up, but I know how necessary it is that we communicate and try to understand each other. We should try to be the change that we want to see in the world, as Gandhi said.

First of all, if you say to a Muslim here anything negative about Islam, it has the same effect as if you told him that you had sex with his wife. Muslims here are so horribly emo and what’s worse, often suffer from the lack of manners.
I used to be active on a inter-religious discussing forum and things there would usually go like this – someone would ask a question, others would offer their opinion, conversation would go on in the atmosphere of understanding and mutual respect. And then usually a Muslim would appear and say something like: “No, you are all stupid, Islam says it’s like this, your evidence is stupid, now convert, you won’t convert because you are all stupid, I’m so much better than you because I’m Muslim, you all stick together because you are unbelievers and work for Shaitan...” and so on.

During my time here I’ve but up a lot of evidence, but nothing can make a man see what he don’t want to see. Now, there are honorable exceptions, there are people here who really know their facts and know how to debate, but most of the time people were simply selling me bullshit. We discussed a hadith in which Mohammad condones slave woman for drinking his urine and a guy here tries to convince me that it’s perfectly healthy to drink pee. And I don’t even want to remember of what people tried to convince me in the debate on Aisha.

Then there is of course there was quite a lot of the usual bending of facts, illogical conclusions, tampered translations of religious books offered as evidence, works of scientists so famous that their mothers never heard of them… In the end guys here tap each other on the shoulder and say: “Look how refuted you, morbius!” Shame really… It would be great if there was a Muslim forum where people would not debate as if their life depended on it, where people would simply express their opinion, rather than trying to impose it on others. But I have high hopes for this place, maybe one day it can evolve into something we can all be proud of.

[Um Ismail]

You are of Turkish blood? I naturally assumed that you are of Slavic origin.

Yes I am of turkish blood (not saying it boastfully), the whole side of my dad's family actually is, as unbelievable as that may sound. On my moms side the slavic origin is stronger though, Allah knows best. You know how there are even a few last names that are completely "un-slavic"? I have one of those. But not that lineage matters much of course, just clarifying.

Like I’ve already explain, that is not true.

I don't know, but it would be highly unlikely or even unheard of amongst the christian scholars and priests to say such a thing about God, to call Him by a name of His creation, chosen by His creation? This statement holds no weight in light of the Bible, I'm afraid.

I’ve been debating with Muslims both in real life and on the net and I can say this much – it’s incredible pain in the butt. The arrogance and stubbornness of a lot of Muslims in arguing is so big that it makes trying to explain them something obvious is as pleasurable as banging my head against the wall. I would so gladly just give up, but I know how necessary it is that we communicate and try to understand each other. We should try to be the change that we want to see in the world, as Gandhi said.

First of all, if you say to a Muslim here anything negative about Islam, it has the same effect as if you told him that you had sex with his wife. Muslims here are so horribly emo and what’s worse, often suffer from the lack of manners.
I used to be active on a inter-religious discussing forum and things there would usually go like this – someone would ask a question, others would offer their opinion, conversation would go on in the atmosphere of understanding and mutual respect. And then usually a Muslim would appear and say something like: “No, you are all stupid, Islam says it’s like this, your evidence is stupid, now convert, you won’t convert because you are all stupid, I’m so much better than you because I’m Muslim, you all stick together because you are unbelievers and work for Shaitan...” and so on.

During my time here I’ve but up a lot of evidence, but nothing can make a man see what he don’t want to see. Now, there are honorable exceptions, there are people here who really know their facts and know how to debate, but most of the time people were simply selling me bullshit. We discussed a hadith in which Mohammad condones slave woman for drinking his urine and a guy here tries to convince me that it’s perfectly healthy to drink pee. And I don’t even want to remember of what people tried to convince me in the debate on Aisha.

Then there is of course there was quite a lot of the usual bending of facts, illogical conclusions, tampered translations of religious books offered as evidence, works of scientists so famous that their mothers never heard of them… In the end guys here tap each other on the shoulder and say: “Look how refuted you, morbius!” Shame really… It would be great if there was a Muslim forum where people would not debate as if their life depended on it, where people would simply express their opinion, rather than trying to impose it on others. But I have high hopes for this place, maybe one day it can evolve into something we can all be proud of.

I won't debate all this much as there are indeed Muslims whose first priority is not to teach but to argue, refute, etc, often without any knowledge on their part either. This however does not say anything of Islam, as Islam is against such behaviour and it is also impermissible to speak about Allah without knowledge. You should also keep in mind that most Muslims are laymen, probably not even well versed in the arabic language (the whom you've interacted with) let alone firm in knowledge or wisdom, as one is insufficient without the other in debating with people. Also I do think and I'm sure you can admit it, if but to yourself, that your way of engaging in a debate comes across as you mocking us and purposely trying to irritate us and make us believe we are uneducated and don't even know whom or what we worship. You don't say it and I don't know if any of this is truly your intention but I'm just saying it comes across that way. I've experienced the same from the Christians when I would try to debate their religion regardless of how respectful I tried and thought to be. But I do make it clear that we Muslims should be above that as Allah wants us to be examples to others, not the other way around. Some people are patient, some aren't, some easily get offended and are very suspicious and some aren't, on this forum there are members of both sides, so the least you can do is acknowledge is that there are those who are well mannered and patient for the most part. If you want a place where you can ask your questions in a polite manner and receive the same in return I suggest you visit the english Multaqa, the link is in Abu Maryam PK's signature. Plus a number of members there are quite knowledgeable masha'Allah and well mannered (not that there are any here guys). It is quite different from this forum in forum policy at the very least and there are members here who can attest to that.

As for the evidence you presented, I'm sorry but the one I saw (the picture of the stone idol), I just don't see the relevance. What did you think of the ayat I presented to you, out of curiosity, are they not proof enough?

Oh, and by the way, have you noticed our member William and the contents of his posts? I've yet to see someone insult him or behave towards him the way they do towards you, although he says many things that are considered blasphemy in Islam. Yet most people here can see, even behind the screen, that he is genuine and well naturated, it just comes out of his posts somehow, so most people don't even bother ganging up on him for the things he says. Please think about it.

[Um Ismail]

By the way, I glanced at this briefly and it seems to say there isn't really any evidence for what you're saying, take a look please:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_mythology

[morbius]

I don't know, but it would be highly unlikely or even unheard of amongst the christian scholars and priests to say such a thing about God, to call Him by a name of His creation, chosen by His creation? This statement holds no weight in light of the Bible, I'm afraid.

Well, I can’t guarantee it’s the same for all flavors of Christianity, but in Orthodoxy God has no name, so whichever name we use for Him, it is a human given name.
Also I do think and I'm sure you can admit it, if but to yourself, that your way of engaging in a debate comes across as you mocking us and purposely trying to irritate us and make us believe we are uneducated and don't even know whom or what we worship. You don't say it and I don't know if any of this is truly your intention but I'm just saying it comes across that way.
Well, I have been told when I was younger that I do sometimes give the appearance of arrogance. I’ve worked hard since than to try to correct that flaw in my character, but it appears that I still have some work to do. Thank you for bringing it up to my attention.
If you want a place where you can ask your questions in a polite manner and receive the same in return I suggest you visit the english Multaqa, the link is in Abu Maryam PK's signature. It is completely different from this forum and there are members here who can attest to that.
Thank you, I will give it a look.
As for the evidence you presented, I'm sorry but the one I saw (the picture of the stone idol), I just don't see the relevance. What did you think of the ayat I presented to you, out of curiosity, are they not proof enough?
It seems very compelling.
The problem is that I can’t see what are we actually arguing about since it’s quite logical that Allah was for pagan Arabs at the same time both creator of the world and god of the moon. We are most probably both right.
Moon symbolism is very much present in Islam, for instance the story of Muhammad splitting the moon, significance given to lunar eclipse, or Ramadan lasting exactly one moon phase, starting and ending with croissant moon, etc.
Oh, and by the way, have you noticed our member William and the contents of his posts? I've yet to see someone insult him or behave towards him the way they do towards you, although he says many things that are considered blasphemy in Islam. Yet most people here can see, even behind the screen, that he is genuine and well naturated, it just comes out of his posts somehow, so most people don't even bother ganging up on him for the things he says. Please think about it.
Hating William would be like kicking a small puppy, not many people can do it. And with all the respect I have for William, I think that it is better that we speak on serious matters, even if it angers some people.

By the way, I glanced at this briefly and it seems to say there isn't really any evidence for what you're saying, take a look please:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_mythology
Take a look at mithology of suthern Slavs.
http://sr.wikipedia.org/sr-el/Корисник:Велики
Čislobog - boginja meseca

[Nu7]

But I have high hopes for this place, maybe one day it can evolve into something we can all be proud of.

Look at how arrogant you are, if we don't take your bs then there has to be something wrong with us and/or the forum. It can never be you because you're always oh-so-right. Get over yourself dude.

Like I said, you're not here to debate, you're here to "teach" and "refute" which in itself is very insulting since you basically have very little knowledge about islam. Do you honestly think that we have never heard of these silly theories?? Do you think that you're presenting some ground-breaking evidence or something? You're just parroting the same bs that's been refuted a million times over and over, and if you had any decency you would have found the answers that you need by doing a simple google search.

If you were the least bit honest you would've gone through the evidence that has been presented to you in this thread, yet you choose to ignore all of it.

You want us to swallow some stupid theory that is based on what you and a few orientalists think without even presenting any strong evidence to back it up, I'm sorry to hurt your feelings but you have to be pretty stupid to expect that you will be treated with respect.

You're by far the most arrogant and most ill-mannered christian I have ever come across online. You have this "know it all" mentality when the truth is that members on this site have educated you on your own religion on more than one occasion. When people don't agree with you, it is because they are "not intelligent enough" or because there is something wrong with them.

Work on your manners and humble yourself if you really want people to treat you with respect. If you can't, then atleast be a man and stop crying.

[Um Ismail]

Well, I can’t guarantee it’s the same for all flavors of Christianity, but in Orthodoxy God has no name, so whichever name we use for Him, it is a human given name.

Wouldn't you agree that the existence of a name, or non existence of such for that matter, is crucial to the very concept of God, the very concept of one's belief, and as such must be derived from the textual evidence, in your case the Bible? After all, God is not 'nameless' in the Bible. Doesn't this raise the question, if no such names in the Bible exist, how did the 'other flavors' of Christianity come up with the ones they use? By the same token, if such names or titles (as quite a number of Christians, even the Jews, distinguish between names and titles of God) do not trace back to the Bible does it mean that you can address God like you would any "Huso and Haso", or "Grgo and Mato" (lighthearted humor)? I use these questions to get to the core of your logical thinking, you may or may not choose to answer them of course.

In Islam, we do not use whichever human given name we wish to use, since God gave us no authority to do so, and this would be as if we are appointing a god for ourselves! In fact, He says to call on Him on His most beautiful names and attributes. So how is 'Suzan' beffiting of His Majesty? I know you're not a Muslim and do not believe as we do, but even in your religion I do not understand how you can think that 'Suzan' is a befitting name? Again, these are argumentative questions with no intent to offend or belittle.

Well, I have been told when I was younger that I do sometimes give the appearance of arrogance. I’ve worked hard since than to try to correct that flaw in my character, but it appears that I still have some work to do. Thank you for bringing it up to my attention.

We all have flaws/shortcomings which we must work on. It is good that you at least acknowledged the possibility and you are most welcome Morbius!
Just try to work on your approach a bit, especially on such sensitive issues.


It seems very compelling.

Very compelling as in, very compelling evidence contrary to the assertion of Allah= moon-god?

The problem is that I can’t see what are we actually arguing about since it’s quite logical that Allah was for pagan Arabs at the same time both creator of the world and god of the moon.

I don't think we are arguing, at least not you and I, we are discussing, although I warn you I am far from expert in the field.

Actually it is not logical at all, Morbius, if your assertion is that Allah was a 'moon-god'. It is common knowledge actually, even amongst the non-Muslim theologians, that

1.the pagan Arabs worshipped many idols. This much I believe we agree on.

It is also common knowledge amongst them, (save a few wannabi theologians),as well as Muslims, that

2.Allah was always viewed by them as the Creator of all that is in existence, the supreme God. I think we agree on this as well as there is nothing to suggest otherwise.

Please let me know if you understand and agree that

3. The pagan Arabs viewed those idols as their intercessors with Allah, sacrificed to them, celebrated them, and believed they can bring good and repel harm.

So their belief in God, not some 'moon-god' but God the Creator and acknowledging Him as such was of no avail to them since they ascribed partners to Him in worship.

Also, note that there is a difference between saying 'god of the moon' and 'moon-god'. Yes, Allah is indeed God of the moon, just as well as he is God of the sun, heavens, earth and everything in existence, since He created all of it. But saying 'moon-god' is a different implication altogether.

Again, it would not be logical, when you look at all the verses I showed you, that this was some 'moon-god' who now all of a sudden wants to refute himself as being only the creation of Allah! Better yet, since the claim is that Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam is the author of the Qur'an, can one seriously believe that anyone would have believed him had he said "Hey, by the way, the moon-god you worshipped yesterday has now refuted himself and wants you to believe that there is a higher god then him"! So I don't understand your assertion to be frank. If I want to learn about Christianity I go to it's sources, same as everything else.

We are most probably both right.

This cannot be, unless we both agree that Allah/God that the pagan Arabs believed in is the Allah of the Qur'an and not just another idol that they worshipped, however supreme.

Moon symbolism is very much present in Islam, for instance the story of Muhammad splitting the moon,

This was but a miracle, something which Allah strengthened all His Prophets with. Or can one think that Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam was calling to the worship of a "moon-god" only to split him in half and show the people that he is more powerful than this 'moon-god'? They would have probably worshipped Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam instead!

significance given to lunar eclipse,

Could you be more specific what exactly you are referring to?

or Ramadan lasting exactly one moon phase, starting and ending with croissant moon, etc.

Any other month is measured in the same way, according to the lunar calendar. Muslims were not alone in using the lunar calendar. What then would one say of the solar calendar? Sun was worshipped too, wasn't it?

Ramadan has special significance because in this month the Qur'an was revealed and it is the month of fasting, in short.

Hating William would be like kicking a small puppy, not many people can do it. And with all the respect I have for William, I think that it is better that we speak on serious matters, even if it angers some people.

It is not about hating either you or him. I mentioned him for the sake of comparison of approach. You don't see him getting attacked the way you are attacked. I mean, if you were to say some of the things he says, you'd give up on this forum altogether.


Take a look at mithology of suthern Slavs.
http://sr.wikipedia.org/sr-el/Корисник:Велики
Čislobog - boginja meseca

Thank you, I will look at it God willing as soon as I find the time.

[Sawtul Islam]

Even OT speaks of moon-god worshipers and warns Jews against accepting their cult (Deut. 4:19;17:3; II Kings. 21:3,5; 23:5; Jer. 8:2; 19:13; Zeph. 1:5, etc.)

Take a look at this statue unearthed in Hazor (in Israeli occupied territories).
.


Ehhhh.... you say a statue of a "moon god" was found in Israel... now how does that "prove" that the Arabs worshipped it when it was in Israel???

You are not making any sense.


As I explained earlier on page 1 of this thread, even if we accept the baseless assumption that the Arabs worshipped a "moon god" and called it "Allah", it would not make any difference since we already know their religion was corrupted.

Arab Christians called Jesus "Allah", so does that mean that when Prophet Mohammad (saw) came later and mentioned "Allah" he meant Jesus???

Do you see how faulty your logic is?

So even if you had some real evidence to back up your claims it still wouldn't mean anything.

[Um Ismail]

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/moongod.html

[Um Ismail]

I found someting else, have you read this before, and is it one of the evidences you speak of,Morbius (http://www.dhushara.com/book/orsin/orsin3.htm)?

[morbius]

Wouldn't you agree that the existence of a name, or non existence of such for that matter, is crucial to the very concept of God, the very concept of one's belief, and as such must be derived from the textual evidence, in your case the Bible?

In the Bible Jesus indeed refers to god by word Elohim (which was one of Jewish words for God and from which comes Arabian word Allah). But mostly he just informally calls him daddy (Abba).
Doesn't this raise the question, if no such names in the Bible exist, how did the 'other flavors' of Christianity come up with the ones they use?
Most also simply call Him God, but I know that some sects still use the name Jehovah, which is Romanized from Jewish original Yahweh. English word “god” comes from Germanic root “gut”, meaning “good one”. Our “bog” comes from Persian “bogha” meaning “the one that gives light”.
By the same token, if such names or titles (as quite a number of Christians, even the Jews, distinguish between names and titles of God) do not trace back to the Bible does it mean that you can address God like you would any "Huso and Haso", or "Grgo and Mato" (lighthearted humor)?
Lord’s prayer that Jesus gave to us begins with “Our father…”. Most say it is best to address God like you address your own father.
In Islam, we do not use whichever human given name we wish to use, since God gave us no authority to do so, and this would be as if we are appointing a god for ourselves!
One interesting question comes to me. Does this mean you are sinning for using the Arabized version of God’s name instead of Jewish original?
In fact, He says to call on Him on His most beautiful names and attributes. So how is 'Suzan' beffiting of His Majesty?
What’s wrong with Suzan? Suzan is a beautiful name, it means “lily”.
I don't think we are arguing, at least not you and I, we are discussing, although I warn you I am far from expert in the field.

Actually it is not logical at all, Morbius, if your assertion is that Allah was a 'moon-god'. It is common knowledge actually, even amongst the non-Muslim theologians, that

1.the pagan Arabs worshipped many idols. This much I believe we agree on.

It is also common knowledge amongst them, (save a few wannabi theologians),as well as Muslims, that

2.Allah was always viewed by them as the Creator of all that is in existence, the supreme God. I think we agree on this as well as there is nothing to suggest otherwise.

Please let me know if you understand and agree that
3. The pagan Arabs viewed those idols as their intercessors with Allah, sacrificed to them, celebrated them, and believed they can bring good and repel harm.
.
No arguments from me until here.

However, I’m having some problems with stuff further on, such as:
So their belief in God, not some 'moon-god' but God the Creator and acknowledging Him as such was of no avail to them since they ascribed partners to Him in worship.
Muslims will not for the life of them admit that pre-Muhammad Arabs viewed those deities as lesser gods, insisting they were just “idols”. So many times I was bashed with “they were not viewed as gods, they were just idols!” People prayed to them, sacrificed to them, ascribed them powers and expected help from them, all semantics aside, that’s pretty much my definition of gods.
Better yet, since the claim is that Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam is the author of the Qur'an, can one seriously believe that anyone would have believed him had he said "Hey, by the way, the moon-god you worshipped yesterday has now refuted himself and wants you to believe that there is a higher god then him"!
Nope, but I can quite easily believe Muhamad saying to Arabs something like: “People, Allah is not just a moon-god, but he is the One God that Christians and Jews believe in.”
Better yet, since the claim is that Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam is the author of the Qur'an, can one seriously believe that anyone would have believed him had he said "Hey, by the way, the moon-god you worshipped yesterday has now refuted himself and wants you to believe that there is a higher god then him"!
You would first need to explain me what exactly is the difference between the two.
It is not about hating either you or him. I mentioned him for the sake of comparison of approach. You don't see him getting attacked the way you are attacked. I mean, if you were to say some of the things he says, you'd give up on this forum altogether.
William basically comes here and says: “I love you all!!” He is a very sweat person, but he doesn’t really get involved in arguments or defend his views, which I do.
Most people who know me consider me a good man. I try to be honest and fair, help people whenever I can, which is what good Christians are supposed to do. Even on this forum I helped people with technical questions and I’ve made a screensaver for the forum members.
However, I am not sweet. Unfortunately, it just isn’t in my nature.
I found someting else, have you read this before, and is it one of the evidences you speak of,Morbius?
No, I’ve never seen this before. Thanks, it will make an interesting read.

[Um Ismail]

Stay tuned, I will reply to this God willing I just don't have the time today.

[morbius]

Stay tuned, I will reply to this God willing I just don't have the time today.

Take your time. I too am very busy.

[TN_Cat]

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sources/Allah/moongod.html

an enlightening read

[manZERO]

It seems very compelling.
The problem is that I can’t see what are we actually arguing about since it’s quite logical that Allah was for pagan Arabs at the same time both creator of the world and god of the moon. We are most probably both right.
Moon symbolism is very much present in Islam, for instance the story of Muhammad splitting the moon, significance given to lunar eclipse, or Ramadan lasting exactly one moon phase, starting and ending with croissant moon, etc.

Judaism and the Moon

It is interesting to note that the Jews also adopt the lunar calendar to mark their holy festivals. The Jewish religious calendar, of Babylonian origin, consists of 12 lunar months, amounting to about 354 days. Six times in a 19-year cycle a 13th month is added to adjust the calendar to the solar year. The day is reckoned from sunset to sunset.1

The moon also plays an important role in a symbolic comparison with the Jewish nation. We reproduce below an article written by Rabbi Avrohom Berger that states as such.



http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/wp-content/upload/jewmoon.jpg

The article above would clearly refute the nonsense that Islam based its calendar on the moon because it was a religion of the moon god, for if Islam was really the religion of the moon god, what is the religion of the Jews who used (and still use) the lunar calendar and constantly analogises itself to the moon? In fact, a Jewish site confirmed the above by stating:

The Jewish Nation has been likened to the moon. Our history, cyclical in nature, waxes and wanes like the moon through its cycle hidden at times, but always reemerging to full blossom.2

Condemning the Jewish religion as “moon worship” based on the “logic” (or rather, the lack of it!) of the Christian missionaries would, however, lead to serious implications that could undermine their own faith, as Jesus (P) was a learned Rabbi and faithful Jew himself. However, they have no qualms condemning Islam for using the lunar calendar. Such double standards are not alien to Christian thought, after all the end justifies the means, just as (St.) Paul did the same.


1 http://www.webear.com/reliengl.htm#*top4
2 http://www.judaism.com/calendar2000/backgroud.htm

[Um Ismail]

I have little time so I will not respond to comments which in my opinion are quite irreleveant to the matter at hand.

One interesting question comes to me. Does this mean you are sinning for using the Arabized version of God’s name instead of Jewish original?

No, one is not sinning for saying God, Gott, Bog in place of Allah, taken they all refer to the one God, the Creator. But if one by saying "God" intends Isa as, moon, sun, idols, etc, than this is the greatest sin of all. The arabic 'Allah' is unique in a sense that it can not be made into plural, and had the last revelation (The Qur'an) been in any other language other then arabic we would call him accordingly, yet Allah in His Wisdom chose to raise the last Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam from amongst the Arabs.

"Allah" is a word that existed in the arabic language, how can you say it is an "arabized version instead of Jewish original"? Also, what language did Adam as, Nuh as, Ibrahim as, etc speak?


No arguments from me until here.

However, I’m having some problems with stuff further on, such as:

Muslims will not for the life of them admit that pre-Muhammad Arabs viewed those deities as lesser gods, insisting they were just “idols”. So many times I was bashed with “they were not viewed as gods, they were just idols!” People prayed to them, sacrificed to them, ascribed them powers and expected help from them, all semantics aside, that’s pretty much my definition of gods.

Morbius, I'm not sure if you are failing to realise something intentionally or not!

Allah Himself says in the Qur'an that the pagans took the idols for their gods and thus He did not accept their mere belief that He as a Creator is above those self-appointed gods! Yes, people prayed to them, sacrificed to them, etc, and that is by definition considered worship and no one here disagrees with that. The point is that the excuse of the PAGAN ARABS was that "these are only our intercessors" although they took them as gods! So yes through their worship of the idols they made them into 'gods'! Same as catholic "saints", virgin Mary, etc, people do not say "these are our gods", they view them as intercessors, however this itself is viewed as worship because they are attributing certain powers to them that only God has and directing prayers to them that only God can answer. Same goes for Isa as, Christians worship him in the sense that they are directing prayers to him.

Nope, but I can quite easily believe Muhamad saying to Arabs something like: “People, Allah is not just a moon-god, but he is the One God that Christians and Jews believe in.”

So what are we discussing then? Proofs? Individual thinking, assumptions and conclusions, which are based on.....intellect, logic? I don't see a point in discussion with someone who speaks of "I can quite easily believe such and such" without presenting evidence for such beliefs. I can quite easily believe that the sky is green if I so choose to, it does not make it true however.


William basically comes here and says: “I love you all!!” He is a very sweat person, but he doesn’t really get involved in arguments or defend his views, which I do.

Actually he does 'defend' his views yet the manner in which he does so differs from yours. And no people here are not nice to him merely because he says "I love you all". Muslims here are not nice to each other a lot of the time although many of us would die for one another if it came to that. Anyway, not worth discussing.


However, I am not sweet. Unfortunately, it just isn’t in my nature.

No one is asking you to be 'sweet'.

Anyway, did you read anything from the link I posted and do you have any comments about it?

[Um Ismail]

Better yet, since the claim is that Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam is the author of the Qur'an, can one seriously believe that anyone would have believed him had he said "Hey, by the way, the moon-god you worshipped yesterday has now refuted himself and wants you to believe that there is a higher god then him"!

You would first need to explain me what exactly is the difference between the two.

If you choose to ignore everything the Muslims have said so far, what is left there for me to explain? You would first need to explain/prove that the two are one and the same, so far you've offered only your personal conclusions and poor 'evidence' that has been dealt with in the past by Muslims more knowledgeable then me. And I still want to ask you, does your conclusion mean that the Arab Christians past and present are worshipping a 'moon-god' due to their use of the word 'Allah'? It is strange that you do not see the difference, I'm afraid. Anyone can say "this is god" of anything and everything, does that mean that particular person is 'god' in truth? Of course not. So even if an Arab of past and present points to something or someone and says "this is Allah" it wouldn't make it true likewise. So EVEN IF there were pagan Arabs who referred to the "moon-god" as "Allah"= The God, not 'a' god, it would not be any more true. I think it is clear from the Qur'an and Sunnah the nature of God that the Muslims worship, and it is clear that it was not and is not some 'used to be moon-god'.
And according to the Bible, doesn't it say that Isa as supposedly said to the people something like 'all of you are gods'? What was the word he used for gods in this verse?

[Salahadeen]

Morbius, your utter stupidity has caused me to come back from my hiatus.

You don't even know about your own religion Christianity, so how can we expect you to know about Islam? (Remember your embarrassment when you claimed that so-and-so were not prophets in Christianity, and we humiliated you by showing how they were?) But the problem is not your ignorance as much as it is your arrogance. You don't know about your own religion, yet you are mouthing off on other religions.

You claim that "Allah" was a moon god and that Muhammad [s] changed him to a transcendent God. Let's test your hypothesis!

1. We know that Christian Arabs refer to God as "Allah", and even their Bibles say "Allah"!

2. We know that this was the case during the lifetime of the Prophet [s].

3. In fact, EVEN BEFORE THE PROPHET [s] WAS ALIVE, there were Jews and Christians in Arabia who used to call their God as "Allah".

4. So the question is: were these Jews and Christians worshiping the moon god?

5. When the Prophet [s] was born, he [s] called the people to worship Allah, the same god as the one worshiped by the Jews and Christians, the same one Who was referred to as "ALLAH" by Jewish and Christian Arabs. So how could he have changed the belief from a moon god to a transcendent god, unless you are saying that this is what the Jews and Christians did?