Respect to elders

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

Sayyidina Abu Musa al-Ashari RA is reported to have said,
Respect for Allah includes respect for an old muslim and respect for one who carries the Qur'an (in his heart, that is , he who memorised it) who does not exaggerate (while reciting it) and does not keep himself away from it and respect for a just man of high office (all these are included in showing respect to Allah ).
(Abu Dawood)

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

It is narrated by Sayydina Amr bin Shuayb on the authority of his father who narrated on the authority of Abdullah bin al-Aas RA said,
He does not belong to us who is not merciful to our youngsters and respectful to our elders.

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

Hadhrat Abu Musa Ashari (Radi Allah Anho) relates that the Holy Prophet, Hadhrat Muhammad-ur Rasulullaah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam), said,
Respect for a grey haired Muslim is a part of respect for Allah.
(Abu Dawood)

[I_Am_A_Hermit]

Nice thread masha'Allah.

We need more stuff about 'respect' and 'good manners'.

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

Hazarat Anas (R.A.) relates that the Prophet (Peace be upon him) said,
For a youth who respects and old man, because of his age, Allah appoints people who shall respect the young man in his old age.

I could not find a source for this. Could anyone comment on authenticity of this please? JAK.

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 164:

Narrated Rafi bin Khadij and Sahl bin Abu Hathma:

'Abdullah bin Sahl and Muhaiyisa bin Mas'ud went to Khaibar and they dispersed in the gardens of the date-palm trees. 'Abdullah bin Sahl was murdered. Then 'Abdur-Rahman bin Sahl, Huwaiyisa and Muhaiyisa, the two sons of Mas'ud, came to the Prophet and spoke about the case of their (murdered) friend. 'Abdur-Rahman who was the youngest of them all, started talking. The Prophet said, "Let the older (among you) speak first." So they spoke about the case of their (murdered) friend. The Prophet said, "Will fifty of you take an oath whereby you will have the right to receive the blood money of your murdered man," (or said, "..your companion"). They said, "O Allah's Apostle! The murder was a thing we did not witness." The Prophet said, "Then the Jews will release you from the oath, if fifty of them (the Jews) should take an oath to contradict your claim." They said, "O Allah's Apostle! They are disbelievers (and they will take a false oath)." Then Allah's Apostle himself paid the blood money to them.

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 74, Number 252e:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The younger person should greet the older one, and the walking person should greet the sitting one, and the small number of persons should greet the large number of persons."

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

Sahih Muslim Book 029, Number 5648

Abdullah b. 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:
I saw in a dream that I was using miswak and the two persons contended to get it from me, the one being older than the other one. I gave the miswak to the younger one. It was said to me to give that to the older one and I gave it to the older one.

[Abu wakee]

Masha Allah it's all good to mention these hadiths. But dude why are you being so ****about people giving you respect. Do you want some attention?

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

Brother Abu wakee, please try not to use Western bad words in your speech. I understand that you are living in the West, that is why you are copying their speech.

Also, please do not question the intention of the poster of ahadith, just take the wisdom of it, comment on authenticity or add Islamic knowledge you found on yourself.

I started this thread because I have noticed a lack of respect to elders in this forum.

If you do not respect elders now, next generation will respect you even less when you will be my age.

[Umm Ahmed]

These are from the book Adab Al Mufrad by Immam Bukhari

163. The excellence of the older person

353. Abu Hurayra reported that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Anyone who does not show mercy to our children nor acknowledge the right of our old people is not one of us."

354. 'Abdullah ibn 'Amr ibn al-'As reported that it reached him that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Anyone who does not show mercy to our children nor acknowledge the right of our old people is not one of us."





164. Respect for the Old

357. Al-Ash'ari said, "Part of respect for Allah is to show respect to an old Muslim and to someone who knows the Qur'an, as long as he does not go to excess in it nor turn away from it, and to respect a just ruler."



165. The old person should be the first to speak and ask

359. Rafi' ibn Khudayj and Sahl ibn Abi Hathama reported that 'Abdullah ibn Sahl and Muhayyisa ibn Mas'ud came to Khaybar and parted when they were among the palm trees. 'Abdullah ibn Sahl was murdered. 'Abdu'r-Rahman ibn Sahl and Huwayyisa and Muhayyisa, the sons of Mas'ud came to the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and spoke to him about their (murdered) companion. 'Abdu'r-Rahman, the youngest of those present, began to speak, but the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Let the oldest speak first." (or "Exalt the eldest.") They spoke about their companion and the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, asked, "Will fifty of you take an oath that you are entitled to the blood-money of your murdered man?" They replied, "Messenger of Allah, this is something which we did not see." He said, "Then will the Jews exonerate themselves by the oaths of fifty of them?" They protested, "Messenger of Allah, they are unbelievers!" So the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, himself paid his blood money."

166. When an older person does not speak, can the youngest speak then?

360. Ibn 'Umar said, "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'Tell me which tree is like the Muslim? It gives fruits at all times by the permission of its Lord and its leaves do not fall.' It occurred to me that it was the palm tree, but I did not want to speak as Abu Bakr and 'Umar, may Allah be pleased with them, were both present. When they did not speak, the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'It is the palm tree.' When I left with my father, I said, 'Father, I thought that it was the palm,.' He asked, 'What kept you from saying that? If you had said so, I would have preferred that to such-and-such.' I said, 'What kept me from doing so was that I did not see you or Abu Bakr speak, so I did not like to speak out.'"

167. Making the old leaders

361. Hakim ibn Qays ibn 'Asim reported that then his father was dying. he enjoined his sons: "Fear Allah and make the oldest among you your leaders. When people make the oldest among them their leaders, they follow their fathers. When they make the youngest among them their leaders, that lowers them in the sight of their peers. You must have wealth and use it well. It is an impetus for the generous and it will make you independent of critics. Beware of asking people. It is a man's last source of earning. When I die, do not wail. There was no wailing for the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace. When I die, bury me in land where the Bakr ibn Wa'il will not know where I am died. I used to waylay on the roads in the time of the Jahiliyya."

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

Jizakum Allahu khairan, sister.

I have a request to you. Could you please select the sayings from your comment that have not been mentioned before in this thread and post them separately?

It will make it easier for people to add tafsir, authenticity comments, reference comments on each hadith if they were posted separately.

Jizakum Allahu khairan.

[suhail]

The topic itself is incomplete in my opinion. Respect to elders is from the manners from the muslim and so is being lenient and respectful to the young. Respect is not limited to the elders but to the young people too. Prophet(SAW) respected the young among the sahabah as much as he respected the old sahabah. Respect is given to where it is due.

Sometime people make a big deal about not getting respect while they on the other hand disrespect everybody they disagree with. Also respect is something which Allah(SWT) grants his servant and is a favor from Allah(SWT). Rather than demanding respect we should try to give respect to others and pray to Allah(SWT) to forgive our faults.

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

The topic itself is incomplete in my opinion.

Every topic is a subtopic of a wider topic. There is general lack of respect to each other and there is disrespect for elders.

There is mutuality in relation between people and there is asymmetry because of their different social status.

Some aspect of relationships between elders and young are mutual, and some are not.

This thread is about respect of elders that comes solely from the age as it is clear from the ahadith.

There is one hadith mentioned in this thread that mentions mutual relationship between young and old and there is asymmetry (compassion/respect) in it.

Brother, please understand the difference between young and old. I understand where this all-egalitarian attitude comes from (Western culture), but this is not Muslim culture.

May I ask you, how old are you, if you do not mind? I assume that the question is relevant given the subject of the thread.

[Abuz Zubair]

If I may make just one comment: Respect is not demanded. It is gained.

[Umm Ahmed]

Jizakum Allahu khairan, sister.

I have a request to you. Could you please select the sayings from your comment that have not been mentioned before in this thread and post them separately?

It will make it easier for people to add tafsir, authenticity comments, reference comments on each hadith if they were posted separately.

Jizakum Allahu khairan.

Waiyaak ameen , They can quote the one hadith by editing out the others.

[Nooristan]

nice thread,I learned something new,jzk...

[suhail]

Lol brother have some youngster really disrespected you that bad. I am pretty old to have seen my younger brother and sister getting married. So believe me i know what are you suggesting.

Respect is something which you cannot force people to have. It is gained by your own deeds and by Allah's will.

Regarding the western culture comment please brother you need to know that a lot of the people of this forum know that difference. Prophet(SAW) gave respect where it was due. He respected the young among the sahabah as much as the old sahabah. You just have to open the seerah and read it.

Respect is given where it is due. You have to earn respect not order people to respect you.

[AnonyMousey]

I think that everyone deserves to be treated with at least some measure of respect from the get-go... and after that, it will increase or decrease based on your own attitude, mannerisms, etc.

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

If I may make just one comment: Respect is not demanded. It is gained.

That is not the respect this thread is about. Ahadith does not speak about that. Ahadith here implied unconditional respect.

Respect can and should be demanded. In real life and in a less rotten country than any Western country a young person would be beaten for disrespect to elders.

Respect is taught. Older people teach young, not vice versa (there are exceptions but they prove the rule).

Thus, your comment is irrelevant. I would expect from you to comment more on the authenticity of the ahadith given that you indicated many times to your knowledge of Arabic and Deen.

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

I think that everyone deserves to be treated with at least some measure of respect from the get-go... and after that, it will increase or decrease based on your own attitude, mannerisms, etc.

That is true. But this thread is not about that. It's about additional respect to elders.

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

Lol brother have some youngster really disrespected you that bad. I am pretty old to have seen my younger brother and sister getting married. So believe me i know what are you suggesting.

That is not an answer. Please give at least 10 years time span.

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

Lol

THAT is already disrespectful. Laughing at person in his face is very rude.

[AnonyMousey]

That is true. But this thread is not about that. It's about additional respect to elders.

Yes, I definitely agree that elders deserve greater respect from youth... however, I do think that it also depends on the elders' attitudes - it's part of human nature that if someone does not deal with you in a decent manner, your attitude towards them (and subsequently your respect for them), will change and decrease.

Perhaps it's not so much a question of the respect we must have for our elders (which is indisputable), but rather how we show that respect and how we should act with them. We should keep in mind that respect can be interpreted differently by different people from different cultures, and "respectable behaviour" also differs.
For example, some might think that for a youth to speak in the presence of an elder on a certain subject (or any subject at all), is a sign of impudence and disrespect. Others don't see it that way, and indeed encourage their youth to speak out and express themselves in adult company (the advantage to this being that it increases their self-esteem and self-confidence but also that the adults can correct them when necessary).

[AnonyMousey]

THAT is already disrespectful. Laughing at person in his face is very rude.

This just proves my last point: you interpreted the "lol" as being disrespectful and rude; yet others here would take it in stride and not be bothered by it, because it's a common part of our communication.

[abu_ibrahim]

Did you get treated badly by a young person in the past? Perhaps you got slapped around by a youngster before? What is it with you and age? I can see that you seem to use age when you cannot convince people of your opinions.

[suhail]

So than i should stop laughing even if you make a joke. And yeah what is it with the age thing. I dont understand. I respect my elders but i disagree with them on tons of things.

They do not have any problems with me arguing with them on things or laughing at there arguments because thats the part of the discussion. I dont mean any disrespect to them. May be you take things too seriously

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

Yes, I definitely agree that elders deserve greater respect from youth... however, I do think that it also depends on the elders' attitudes - it's part of human nature that if someone does not deal with you in a decent manner, your attitude towards them (and subsequently your respect for them), will change and decrease.

Perhaps it's not so much a question of the respect we must have for our elders (which is indisputable), but rather how we show that respect and how we should act with them. We should keep in mind that respect can be interpreted differently by different people from different cultures, and "respectable behaviour" also differs.
For example, some might think that for a youth to speak in the presence of an elder on a certain subject (or any subject at all), is a sign of impudence and disrespect. Others don't see it that way, and indeed encourage their youth to speak out and express themselves in adult company (the advantage to this being that it increases their self-esteem and self-confidence but also that the adults can correct them when necessary).

The differences between cultures you are talking about are negligable compared to a disrespectful way of youngsters talking here.

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

This just proves my last point: you interpreted the "lol" as being disrespectful and rude; yet others here would take it in stride and not be bothered by it, because it's a common part of our communication.

In this case the difference is between Jahilia of Western upbringing and elementary decent behavior.

Many things are upside down here. Older people in their 30s using youth language. Since when?

Since when older people imitate youth? That is similar to the signs of the Last Days when many things will be upside down.

You do not see it as rude, because you are already soaked in it, blinded by day to day interaction on the Web with the culture that are alien to Muslims.

When older person like myself comes to it he sees it.

Trust me, I am on the Internet since the times when nobody mixed Web with Internet simply because at that time there was no Web. I participated in internet discussions when there were only mailing lists (about 20 years now).

It was much better then when academics of natural sciences were communicated with each other on the Bitnet. That guaranteed some level of decency of communication between people.

Nowadays it is just flooded with the lowest common denominator.

Make no mistake, islamicawakening is one the furthest from that denominator, but it's still affected by it.

Imitate people older than you rather than younger than you.

Do not accept something just because everyone is doing it. That is not a Muslim behavior. Muslims should be opposite to that. If Kuffaar are inventing lols and rotflols then we should be the opposite of it, we should run from it like from fire, don't you know that? That's Sunnah.

Please. Clean yourself for the sake of your Akheera. Do not defend the bubble-speak. Do not imitate Kuffaar.

I have no interest in seeking respect from you. I have established employment, I have steady flow Rizq, I have highest education degree from one of the most respected colleges in the world, I have recognition of my scientific peers. I am set, trust me. I have enough respect in real life.

I am forced to go to the internet in search of Islamic knowledge because of lack of it in real life around me. That's why I am here where people are juggling Islamic terminology and dozens of names of scholars with ease.

The anger in reaction to disrespect is normal way of reacting. It's up to us to transform the anger into something useful. That is why this thread.

[I_Am_A_Hermit]

In this case the difference is between Jahilia of Western upbringing and elementary decent behavior.

Many things are upside down here. Older people in their 30s using youth language. Since when?

Since when older people imitate youth? That is similar to the signs of the Last Days when many things will be upside down.

You do not see it as rude, because you are already soaked in it, blinded by day to day interaction on the Web with the culture that are alien to Muslims.

When older person like myself comes to it he sees it.


I had never thought of it like that before. ^

JZK.

[seeker_of_knowledge]

If I may make just one comment: Respect is not demanded. It is gained.

Says it all, short and sweet.

[waziri]

Asalamualaykum,


Akhi Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari, nuff respek to you my big brother.


wasalam

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

nuff respek

What's this? Sarcasm?

[Abu Maysara]

a real disturbing thread, from first to last post

[Um Ismail]

This is actually a very beneficial thread masha'Allah, wa jazakom Allahu khayran.

However, if you allow me to add brother, how is one exactly supposed to know on a forum like this who is of what age? Maybe there should be a thread where people can tell their age for this reason if they so choose to. I definitely agree that there is a certain type of respect that must be given solely due to the age differences, i.e. the young respecting the old. But I also believe that, when looking into the Seerah of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam specifically, one can see how he treated both young and old, and all respected him not only because he is the Messenger of Allah, but also because of how he treated the people. He never demanded respect, he earned it through his beautiful speech when adressing people, even those who wronged him, he earned it through his good manners which were the best of manners, he earned it through his mercy towards people, young and old, through his ability to overlook and forgive, his ability to correct the people in such a way that they would love to be corrected by him, not feel irritated, disrespected, lectured etc. And this is why people loved to be in his company and never felt bothered nor disrespected masha'Allah. So this is Sunnah as well, to show mercy, to forgive, to overlook, to preach in a beautiful manner, to assume the best of people, etc. So the old teach the young as a general rule, however if our elders are unable to show mercy, unable to overlook, forgive, be soft etc, and only know how to scold us for every little mistake, if they don't let us speak at all solely because of our age, then most likely we will flee from them instead of seek to be in their company and love to benefit from their wisdom, Allahu A'lam. Personally I have always preferred to be in the company of my elders as opposed to youth, it comes so natural alhamdulillah however surely this is because of how they treat me, that I love to be around them and benefit from them.

I hope you do not feel like I am lecturing you as it is not my intention at all akhi al karim, I just felt this is relevant to the thread and also to what I see happen in other threads, so my apologies if I came across rude or disrespectful.

All in all, a very beneficial thread and a good reminder masha'Allah.

[waziri]

What's this? Sarcasm?

Asalamulaykum,


Akhi you being from the U.S is probably the reason why you didnt understand what I said (or thought I was being sarcastic)

"Nuff respek" = Enough Respect, alot of youngsters over here say Nuff respek and thats why I said it like that, not that Im a youngster.

Anyway

No disrespect big bro

[Mustafa al-Muhaajir]

This is a freakin forum, you can't expect people to treat you as others do in real-life. Especially when the 'elder' acts alot more immature than the youngsters.
That's just my two cents.

['Abd al-Kareem]

Just something to ponder about brothers and sisters:
If we were told to respect the elders, then why is it that "Respect is not demanded. It is gained"?

Meaning if everyone had to gain his own respect, (i.e. everyone starts off equally regardless of age etc.) then we wouldn't have been told specifically to respect elders. They'd be just like the youngsters then. Everyone work your way to earning people's respect, whether you have a white beard or no beard.

But I think the fact that someone is older demands a bit of respect just for that reason alone. At the very least in the way we address them. At the very least. If you disagree, fine. If you completely reject the elder's opinion and you make it known, fine. If you feel the elder is completely wrong, fine. But at the very least do not ridicule him.

And brother waziri, I remember the thread about you being called uncle, so you no longer have the right to say 'nuff respek' anymore lol. I only have one thing to say to you uncle: nuff respek! (smile)

[Abuz Zubair]

jund al-islam, it involves a bit of both... respecting someone due to seniority in age AND because the person actually deserves respect. Often it is the case that a person despite of being senior loses all his rights to respect by behaving in unpleasant ways.

Usually, if a person is mature, he comes across as mature in his writings and he ends up getting respect from all. Likewise, if a person comes across as immature and then demands respect for being a senior, he becomes the subject of ridicule. This is natural.

[waziri]

And brother waziri, I remember the thread about you being called uncle, so you no longer have the right to say 'nuff respek' anymore lol. I only have one thing to say to you uncle: nuff respek! (smile)

True say True say ;)

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

This is actually a very beneficial thread masha'Allah, wa jazakom Allahu khayran.

However, if you allow me to add brother, how is one exactly supposed to know on a forum like this who is of what age? Maybe there should be a thread where people can tell their age for this reason if they so choose to. I definitely agree that there is a certain type of respect that must be given solely due to the age differences, i.e. the young respecting the old. But I also believe that, when looking into the Seerah of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam specifically, one can see how he treated both young and old, and all respected him not only because he is the Messenger of Allah, but also because of how he treated the people. He never demanded respect, he earned it through his beautiful speech when adressing people, even those who wronged him, he earned it through his good manners which were the best of manners, he earned it through his mercy towards people, young and old, through his ability to overlook and forgive, his ability to correct the people in such a way that they would love to be corrected by him, not feel irritated, disrespected, lectured etc. And this is why people loved to be in his company and never felt bothered nor disrespected masha'Allah. So this is Sunnah as well, to show mercy, to forgive, to overlook, to preach in a beautiful manner, to assume the best of people, etc. So the old teach the young as a general rule, however if our elders are unable to show mercy, unable to overlook, forgive, be soft etc, and only know how to scold us for every little mistake, if they don't let us speak at all solely because of our age, then most likely we will flee from them instead of seek to be in their company and love to benefit from their wisdom, Allahu A'lam. Personally I have always preferred to be in the company of my elders as opposed to youth, it comes so natural alhamdulillah however surely this is because of how they treat me, that I love to be around them and benefit from them.

I hope you do not feel like I am lecturing you as it is not my intention at all akhi al karim, I just felt this is relevant to the thread and also to what I see happen in other threads, so my apologies if I came across rude or disrespectful.

All in all, a very beneficial thread and a good reminder masha'Allah.

As for you nasiha, I know there are older people attending this forum, but they are more modest (or more busy) than me. So, unfortunately, you are stuck w/ me for now (and jund-al-islam, who is superior than me in soft speech and manners).

PS. I do not remember you being rude. Please forgive me as well if was rude to you.

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

Asalamulaykum,


Akhi you being from the U.S is probably the reason why you didnt understand what I said (or thought I was being sarcastic)

"Nuff respek" = Enough Respect, alot of youngsters over here say Nuff respek and thats why I said it like that, not that Im a youngster.

Anyway

No disrespect big bro

I know what nuff respek is, and being from US only facilitates this.

One of the purposes of changing the style of the speech in the middle of it is to lower its significance, to make a joke of it.

"Nuff respek" cannot be part of respectful speech, unless ebonics is a native language of the speaker. Respectful speech to elders cannot be jokeful. Youth cannot initiate jokes w/ elders, but elders can.

Please do not take it personally, I am using this opportunity to educate.

There are many ways of connecting generations - the bond that is eroding w/ so called "progress", but very few of them are right. We have to look what was the major way connecting youth and old in the times of Salaaf. How it was done. It is part of Islam. How Sahaba connected to Tabi'een, how Tabi'een connected to Tabi-tabi'een. Was it done by joking of youth to elders, making fun?

Elders have a weight of experience, of life on their shoulders which is heavier that the load of youth. They have more sins, more responsibilities, so they are not taking life as lightly as youth.


Elders can easily connect to the youth without youth "teaching" them, they can easily talk their language and they can understand youth, because they have been there, have done that. They did the same mistakes, the sins the same sins.

Youth cannot connect to elders, they only have take the expericence, the wisdom of elders as it is and learn from that.

We all are in the deep snow of darkness in the endless field, trying to go step into step behind people who are ahead, the people who made those steps and are warning us to take only those that do not lead to the water under the ice. They are old and wet, those people, shivering, tired and grouchy, they are too cautious to move fast, but they keep going and going until those behind them find their frozen bodies and fresh virgin shiny cold-blue surface of snow ahead.

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

This is a freakin forum, you can't expect people to treat you as others do in real-life. Especially when the 'elder' acts alot more immature than the youngsters.
That's just my two cents.


Sorry, brother, I cannot waste time on reading your comments anymore. To "ignore list".

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

behaving in unpleasant ways.

That's what old people do. That is what your parents will do more and more with age.

Young man, people are not getting more pleasant with age. Please do understand that.

That is why additional respect for nothing.

I am quick in judgments and I do not have energy to carefully explain why your (including you personally) mistakes are so obvious, so I cut the corners and call you (not you personally) an idiot. The least you can do is to be silent, the best is to wish me Ajr from Allah for my warning to you.

[Umm Ahmed]

That's what old people do. That is what your parents will do more and more with age.

Young man, people are not getting more pleasant with age. Please do understand that.

That is why additional respect for nothing.

I am quick in judgments and I do not have energy to carefully explain why your (including you personally) mistakes are so obvious, so I cut the corners and call you (not you personally) an idiot. The least you can do is to be silent, the best is to wish me Ajr from Allah for my warning to you.


Some men turn into grumpy old men , but thats usually in their late sixties not in their forties . and it usually stems from depression at lost youth ect, and muslims should take that grey hair in their hair as a reminder that time is running out and we should hasten to sort ourselves out.
I thought with age came maturity and a time to let things slide of one's back.

[Nu7]

Akhi (or 3ammi) Abu Abdallah, you are only 40 years old. I think Abu Zubair is maybe in his late 30's.

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

usually in their late sixties not in their forties

It's not years, it's mileage

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

Akhi (or 3ammi) Abu Abdallah, you are only 40 years old. I think Abu Zubair is maybe in his late 30's.

I am not forty, I am over forty, and by that I do not mean days over, or months over. And everyone 2 years younger is a youngster :-)

[Umm Ahmed]

It's not years, it's mileage


Had a rough road maybe. I can't recall but did you say you were a revert?

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

Had a rough road maybe. I can't recall but did you say you were a revert?


I am not a revert, but I was non-practicing for long time (I grew up in a communist country)

[Abuz Zubair]

al-Bughari, it seems you are the biggest kid here. And all the ill treatment you receive from the 'youngsters' online, and most definitely offline, is something you attract yourself. You make matters worse for yourself. You've been told previously that your tactics are only firing back on you. You seem to have some sort of weird infatuation with being older than the rest and everyone else licking your boots for supposedly being an elder. If your own younger siblings or children didn't give you the respect you deserve, it doesn't mean you have to come here and take it out on us.

I am still advising you, the more you carry on like this the more respect you lose as an 'elder'. And if you don't like the people here, you are more than welcome to join a forum with ppl your own age. At least then you won't have to live with this complex all the time. No one is forcing you give us kids company.

Thank you very much.

[Salahadeen]

If I may make just one comment: Respect is not demanded. It is gained.

Darn modernists and their egalitarian ways of thinking!

(I'm kidding by the way.)

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

al-Bughari, it seems you are the biggest kid here. And all the ill treatment you receive from the 'youngsters' online, and most definitely offline, is something you attract yourself. You make matters worse for yourself. You've been told previously that your tactics are only firing back on you. You seem to have some sort of weird infatuation with being older than the rest and everyone else licking your boots for supposedly being an elder. If your own younger siblings or children didn't give you the respect you deserve, it doesn't mean you have to come here and take it out on us.

I am still advising you, the more you carry on like this the more respect you lose as an 'elder'. And if you don't like the people here, you are more than welcome to join a forum with ppl your own age. At least then you won't have to live with this complex all the time. No one is forcing you give us kids company.

Thank you very much.

You seem to be not reading what I write. I told you before that I am teaching you manners for your own good. I am just a litmus test. You, personally you, have a problem with your manners and for some reason you have this weird notion that Muslims online can behave differently from their behavior in real life.

You are not getting this. This is for you, not for me. Instead of using this thread for input on the matter from Qur'an, Sunnah or scholars you supposedly know, you stubbornly chose to attack me for bringing the subject up.

You have a lot of arrogance in you that stem partly from the popularity of this forum.

But you have to know that the popularity of these forums, sadly, is not based on the knowledge per/hour (though I have to give a credit to it - it's a second factor after the main factor), but main factor is the tolerance for all kind of deviant behavior you have here: your tolerance for music, anasheeds, juvenile nonsense, trash talk, lols, etc, abusive language, pretend militancy, all kind of superficial things attracting all kind of people, good or bad to this kind of places.

There are a lot of people, including young people on these forums who like myself are attracted to this forum by bits, by leads to Islamic knowledge here and there, but they are getting spoiled by the lower common denominator standard the forums are getting to with your style of moderation.

Somebody should have told you all this long time ago.

As far as for your nasiha, as soon as I find a better place to get some knowledge, I will live. I have low patience in digging through piles of nonsense in my day job.

But so far you are stuck with me. Unless, of course, you use your superpowers (laa hawla wa laa quwwata ille biLlah) as an administrator.

[Abuz Zubair]

But so far you are stuck with me. Unless, of course, you use your superpowers (laa hawla wa laa quwwata ille biLlah) as an administrator.

LOL! And you consider yourself over 40! With age comes maturity and self-respect, or so I thought! :)

[waziri]

"Nuff respek" cannot be part of respectful speech, unless ebonics is a native language of the speaker.


Ebonics = African American U.S. English that is distinct from standard U.S. English.

Actually big bro the term nuff respek is not african american u.s english,I believe its a term made popular by british immigrants from Jamaica.It has now been adopted by the wider population of second and third generation immigrants to a certain extent aswell as by some white youth.

Anyhow that aside I think if you treat those younger than you as mature adults they will show respect in return(Please note Im not saying that you have spoken to anyone in an inappropriate way)


I have friends who are older than me and have always found that they never mind me joking with them,infact they actually like it,I myself would never object to someone younger having a joke with me either.

I think when your laid back about things like that it earns respect.


Khair if you've been offended by something I said








you need to take a chill pill man :p




wasalam

[Skillganon]

It is not really the case that people respect Abuz Zubair for his manners, or that he is popular as you make out him to be.

I personally take what is good from him, and do not hesitate to criticise him where he is lacking.

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

LOL! And you consider yourself over 40! With age comes maturity and self-respect, or so I thought! :)

I am ready to introduce enough of my identity (all of my kunya of public name is real, btw) in private message to you, if you are willing to reciprocate by agreeing to do it publicly here in this thread. Just say yes or no here, and we continue our talk in private.

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

Ebonics = African American U.S. English that is distinct from standard U.S. English.

Actually big bro the term nuff respek is not african american u.s english,I believe its a term made popular by british immigrants from Jamaica.It has now been adopted by the wider population of second and third generation immigrants to a certain extent aswell as by some white youth.


That is not relevant here unless you speak this way normally.

Anyhow that aside I think if you treat those younger than you as mature adults they will show respect in return(Please note Im not saying that you have spoken to anyone in an inappropriate way)


THis has been mulled ad nausea already, why are you starting again? Why don't you use the opportunity of this thread to learn yourself how to treat elders or even better contribute to it from what you have learned?

Do you understand that this thread is not devoted to me? Otherwise it would be called something like "Respect to moi, the sunshine of this forum, Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari", would not it?

Is it really so hard to get that instead of getting your fingers busy only to say something irrelevant?


I have friends who are older than me and have always found that they never mind me joking with them, in fact they actually like it,I myself would never object to someone younger having a joke with me either.


Friends, akhi, the key word is "friend". Another key word is "never mind". This is not a community of friends. Like in the masjid not all people are friends, they say salaams and go their own way.

Did I ask you fraternize with me?


I think when your laid back about things like that it earns respect.


There are also different ways of teaching manners, even more effective: like beating people up with sticks, or using guns.

Khair if you've been offended by something I said

I guess, you do not realize it, but your whole attitude is offensive, all this jargon, "chill pill" this, suggesting "lay back" that.

Forgive me for my wrong guess. Your nickname implies that you are from Waziristan, so you cannot be a revert. Did you grow up in UK? I would not imagine people who grew up in a Muslim family in Waziristan talking the way you talk. In MUST be influence of the Western upbringing.

Let me tell you, akhi, if this true, this Western influence is NOTHING but bad, very bad. 100% bad. There is absolutely no good in West in terms of ahlaq (with may be very few exceptions that cannot play here, on forums).

I suggest you stop talking like young and start talking like older people: talk straight, do not use jargon, use simple plain vanilla English.

Do not cling to younger age, try to behave like old. Your energy of the youth won't go anywhere and you won't get gray hair earlier than Allah will decree because of your more mature talk. Do not be afraid to look more mature than you are.

Now if you understand me, please do not reply. Just listen to it. I am not trying to dominate you or denigrate you or show you your place. None of that. Trust me, it is better for you.

[Nu7]

This is not about young vs. old. People are different, if brother Waziri and others have a certain way of interacting with others then I don't think it has anything to do with their age.

Akhi, you're whole attitude towards others is degrading and you come across as someone who is arrogant and has very little respect for others. This has nothing to do with your age or you being more "mature", it is just the way you are.

Many people in your age-group behave differently than you do. They are not as uptight as you, so joking, laughing etc has nothing to do with maturity. Also, there is something wrong with your whole understanding of what it means to be an elderly or a youngster. In your world a 60 year old would look down on a 58 year old because the latter would be a "youngster" according to the former. Does that not sound ridiculous to you? So if I were a 39 year old brother with 3 children I would still be a "youngster" according to you.

I was with you when this was all about you vs. a bunch of young brothers who were old enough to be your sons, but now you're taking this a bit too far. I mean, now you're demanding that people in your age-group treat you as an uncle or something just because you happen to be a few years older than them. That is extremely ridiculous.

Maasha Allah..

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

This is not about young vs. old.

No, it is. Read the subject of this thread.

People are different, if brother Waziri and others have a certain way of interacting with others then I don't think it has anything to do with their age.

"People are different" is an attitude of a Western modernist, because very few of people differences cannot be described as black and white.

Akhi, you're whole attitude towards others is degrading and you come across as someone who is arrogant and has very little respect for others.

You are wrong, because you notice only my criticism. I did not criticize everybody, I criticize quite specific people, so please do not generalize on my attitude. And the people I criticize needs to be literally "de-graded" of the grade they assigned to themselves. People I criticize need more humility.

I expressed my humility on this forum several times. I spoke jokingly about myself, but all reaction I have got from Abuz Zubair is the label "LOL, no self-respect".

This has nothing to do with your age or you being more "mature", it is just the way you are. You are getting it wrong. How old are you?

Many people in your age-group behave differently than you do. They are not as uptight as you, so joking, laughing etc has nothing to do with maturity.

You do not know me. You are arrogant enough to make assumptions about me. The fact that I do not joke about "look at this stupid Rafidha" or "lol sex and the ummah, like a virgin, look ma, two idiotic pop-culture references in one thread subject!!!" does not mean that I do not joke at all. So please stop with your pretentious extrapolations.

How old are you?

Also, there is something wrong with your whole understanding of what it means to be an elderly or a youngster. In your world a 60 year old would look down on a 58 year old because the latter would be a "youngster" according to the former.

Did you see a smiley on THAT sentence? You who just two sentences ago implied that you are "getting" humor?

Does that not sound ridiculous to you?
No, but I see how _you_ sound ridiculous.

So if I were a 39 year old brother with 3 children I would still be a "youngster" according to you.

Yes, he will be if he will be "lolling" and using stupid teenager jargon all the time.

I was with you when this was all about you vs. a bunch of young brothers who were old enough to be your sons, but now you're taking this a bit too far.

Please, do not take 2 years differences _very_ seriously. In some cases it would matter, in some cases it is not. It is the combination of my difference of age with Abuz Zubair and his obnoxious style.


I mean, now you're demanding that people in your age-group treat you as an uncle or something just because you happen to be a few years older than them. That is extremely ridiculous.

Only to a Westernized people.

[Nu7]

No, it is. Read the subject of this thread.


I am talking about your whole attitude.


"People are different" is an attitude of a Western modernist, because very few of people differences cannot be described as black and white.


That's bs and you know it, people are different and that is a fact of life. Peoples sense of humor differs. Some people are lazy, others are more active and so on... What the hell does stating a simple fact have to do with being a "western modernist"??

You are wrong, because you notice only my criticism. I did not criticize everybody, I criticize quite specific people, so please do not generalize on my attitude. And the people I criticize needs to be literally "de-graded" of the grade they assigned to themselves. People I criticize need more humility.

I expressed my humility on this forum several times. I spoke jokingly about myself, but all reaction I have got from Abuz Zubair is the label "LOL, no self-respect".

Akhi, you were being rude even to those who did not disrespect you in any way shape or form.


You are getting it wrong. How old are you?

Maybe I am, Allahu A3lam, but that is how it seems to me. Why do you want to know my age, akhi?

You do not know me. You are arrogant enough to make assumptions about me. The fact that I do not joke about "look at this stupid Rafidha" or "lol sex and the ummah, like a virgin, look ma, two idiotic pop-culture references in one thread subject!!!" does not mean that I do not joke at all. So please stop with your pretentious extrapolations.


Please stop exaggerating, nobody is asking you to act like an 18 year old. Just don't knock people over the head for being different (of course within the Guidelines of Shari'ah). If you see something which you think is inappropriate then you are welcome to speak up against it (like you did in the sex thread), but if someone speaks in a way that you dislike for personal reasons then just ignore it. You can't expect every person on earth to think like you, regardless of age.

How old are you?

53. :)

Did you see a smiley on THAT sentence? You who just two sentences ago implied that you are "getting" humor?

I am not at all referring to that one sentence. By the way, some would say that the use of smileys is immature. Just trying to demonstrate how people have different perceptions.


No, but I see how _you_ sound ridiculous.


I am sorry to hear that.


Yes, he will be if he will be "lolling" and using stupid teenager jargon all the time.

So it is not really just about age then, it's about how one presents himself, right? :)

Which means I don't have to respect an elderly person if he is immature and/or immoral, right? (I am not referring to you, akhi).

['Abd al-Kareem]

jund al-islam, it involves a bit of both... respecting someone due to seniority in age AND because the person actually deserves respect. Often it is the case that a person despite of being senior loses all his rights to respect by behaving in unpleasant ways.

Does he actually lose all his rights to respect, as in we are no longer required to respect him and we won't be accountable for that? Or do you mean that in practice that is what generally happens?

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

I am talking about your whole attitude.

I have a very valid reason in my every reply. I do not have any respect to modernist, feminist, and I have zero tolerance for Westernization. That is true. So it is not the attitude. It is one of the valid reactions to evil.

Give me examples

That's bs and you know it, people are different and that is a fact of life.

You did not understand what I said and you started to use curse words. Again, how old are you?

Second. I did not say people are not different. I said "people are different" is a Western attitude. People say that as if it explains a little bit the essence. I explained the essence. Read again what I said.


Peoples sense of humor differs.

It differs on the level "Getting that joke" "not getting that joke". Write it down and put it in your dormitory room:

NEVER USE PERSONAL JOKES WITH STRANGERS

If you do that you will be one step closer to be a pious Muslim.

What the hell does stating a simple fact have to do with being a "western modernist"??

You are not even noticing it. Do you know any Sahaba swearing by "Hell"? What is wrong with you, brother? That is what I am talking about. You may think of yourself as a hardcore Salafi, but you are not. It did not go beyond your skin if you allow yourself to use such a language.

I am not at all referring to that one sentence. By the way, some would say that the use of smileys is immature. Just trying to demonstrate how people have different perceptions.

You do not see a difference between LOL and smiley? Do you really think I chose "lol" as an example of bad language because it is abbreviated? That is what smiley is - an abreviation. LOL is "laughing out loud" and mostly it is used on this forums to denigrate the opponent. It is like laughing in the face of somebody. You do not do it in real life, do you? You do not laugh elders in the face, do you?


So it is not really just about age then, it's about how one presents himself, right? :)

Did you see a clause in the ahadith above? Did you see any condition on respecting elders? If you see an elder person urinating in his pants because he cannot hold it anymore would you put a finger on him and "LOL"? Would you laugh at an older person who is limping in a funny way? You would try your best to hold your laughter. Let me tell you. It is even easier at the forums. Laugh as much as you want, elder person does not see you, just do not embarass yourself by showing everybody how immature are you by sharing your juvenile giggly reaction (I did not mean you personally in this paragraph) with the whole world wide web?

Which means I don't have to respect an elderly person if he is immature and/or immoral, right? (I am not referring to you, akhi).

It is your judgment of an older person and you are judging an older person without possibly fully understanding why this person is this way.

You do not have to respect, but you have to at least fake it. That is what manners are: you are not showing every single emotion that crossed your brain.

The respect for elders is absolute, it has no preconditions, no clauses, like respect to your mother or father.

Please put it in writing and post it on your dorm wall.

[Nu7]

I can honestly say that I would never have guessed you to be 40+ had you not told me. Think about that for a minute, and maybe then you will see why people treat you the way they do. How can I take your lecture about manners seriously when you display some of the worst manners on this forum? You should fear arrogance and falling into hypocrisy instead of trying to "discipline" these socalled youngsters. That is a genuine advice.

Nevermind this discussion anyway, may Allah blesss you akhi.

[abu_ibrahim]

I can honestly say that I would never have guessed you to be 40+ had you not told me. Think about that for a minute, and maybe then you will see why people treat you the way they do. How can I take your lecture about manners seriously when you display some of the worst manners on this forum? You should fear arrogance and falling into hypocrisy instead of trying to "discipline" these socalled youngsters. That is a genuine advice.

Nevermind this discussion anyway, may Allah blesss you akhi.

The only person he would listen to is someone older than him. Some people have a complex over colour, class, but he has one over age.

[Salahadeen]

Just something to ponder about brothers and sisters:
If we were told to respect the elders, then why is it that "Respect is not demanded. It is gained"?

Meaning if everyone had to gain his own respect, (i.e. everyone starts off equally regardless of age etc.) then we wouldn't have been told specifically to respect elders. They'd be just like the youngsters then. Everyone work your way to earning people's respect, whether you have a white beard or no beard.

But I think the fact that someone is older demands a bit of respect just for that reason alone. At the very least in the way we address them. At the very least. If you disagree, fine. If you completely reject the elder's opinion and you make it known, fine. If you feel the elder is completely wrong, fine. But at the very least do not ridicule him.


A most excellent post, masha-Allah.

[Salahadeen]

Abu Abdullah al-Bughari, I don't know if my endorsement will benefit you or harm you (since most people hate me on this forum), but I really think you are a valuable addition to this forum. I enjoy all your posts, masha-Allah.

['Abd al-Kareem]

Abu Abdullah al-Bughari, I don't know if my endorsement will benefit you or harm you (since most people hate me on this forum), but I really think you are a valuable addition to this forum.
I second that.

[Abuz Zubair]

Does he actually lose all his rights to respect, as in we are no longer required to respect him and we won't be accountable for that? Or do you mean that in practice that is what generally happens?
Both...

Respect is also divisible. For instance, if a senior is a well known fasiq, then it is permissible to backbite him and this can only happen when he loses respect, despite of seniority. Kufr is also something due to which one ends up losing respect, such that he may even be killed by his own children on the battlefield.

Respect can also be lost if a person refuses to acknowledge the Prophet's words, 'he is not of us who doesn't respect the elders and doesn't show mercy to youngsters.' There are many ways of losing respect. Being an elder doesn't at all entitle a person to ultimate unconditional respect.

al-Bughari has done quite enough to lose respect that he is so desperately trying to gain. Bullies, for example, are respected out of fear and not love. al-Bulghari thinks he can bully people into giving him respect.

Keep trying, mate.

[suhail]

There is double speak and hypocrisy from some of the forum members when it comes to treating Brother Abdullah. Just see Salahadeen telling everywhere how wonderful Brother Abdullah is while not looking at the fact that the same person he is praising for manners is disrespecting tons of people around. He disrespects anybody in sight he does not agree too while if somebody responds back he will tout his age as if that makes him immune to insults while he throws insults all over the forums.

Look into mirror before you throw stones at others Brother Abdullah. You can cry foul as much as you want but you are one of the most insulting poster on this forum who thinks he is the best.

[Abuz Zubair]

There is double speak and hypocrisy from some of the forum members when it comes to treating Brother Abdullah. Just see Salahadeen telling everywhere how wonderful Brother Abdullah is while not looking at the fact that the same person he is praising for manners is disrespecting tons of people around.

Just wait till he asks Salahadeen's age :)

[suhail]

I agree. It is the duty of the muslim to respect his elders and being merciful/kind to the youth. But when you are on an internet forum people do not know what is your age. You are a internet poster thats what you are. Nobody can make sure who the other side is unless you know the person personally. I can also feign my age and say i am 77. Is there a way you can verify my age? No you cant and thus all this age thing is a hoax on the forum.

When you are on the forum the respect comes from what are you saying on the forum. You can drum respect all you want but it wont get any attention unless you live by what you are preaching. That means that you show the same respect to others on the forum as you think is right.

On one hand you call to respecting forum members who are elders which there is no way to verify while you keep on insulting the other forum members just by saying they are young and should keep in line.

Internet forums are different then real life because of the anonymous identity so please stop comparing the two as if they are one and the same. On internel forums respect is earned by how you behave on the forums not by shouting respect respect. If you insult a poster wait to be insulted because thats how it works. You like it or not that is the case.

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

This thread will benefit from moving what is from comment 15 and up to somewhere else.

[Abu Abdallah al-Bulghari]

he is so desperately trying to gain

You are liar.

[AbdulMatin]

Salam alaikum

It is a shame that a thread on respecting elders has descended to this.

May Allah remove the ill feeling between brothers

I want to point out one thing - that internet forum interaction strips away our shame, if we are not careful

This comes from the sense of anonymity we get from sitting behind screens interacting

People have no sense of what the other is feeling, intending

So it requires that everyone overlooks the shortcomings of others even more than normal, and that each does their best to have good opinions of the other. Truly internet usage with adab requires more discipline than normal

This is demanded of us in Islam, as is respect and love for our brothers, as is shame in front of our elders, and modesty

wasalam

[Salahadeen]

Respect on this forum is not through age, but through rep points. So Abu Zubayr is at the top.

[Salahadeen]

Just see Salahadeen telling everywhere how wonderful Brother Abdullah is while not looking at the fact that the same person he is praising for manners is disrespecting tons of people around.

Actually, immediately after I posted that, I posted in another thread about how brother al-bughari was being too harsh. I didn't notice his harsher posts until recently. I've noticed a change in his posts...

I think that this forum brings out the worst in people. So you will have a really nice guy join this forum, and then get attacked from a bunch of members who follow the same ideology, etc...and then that person just becomes real defensive and aggressive.

This forum turns people into monsters.

[Mustafa al-Muhaajir]

So you will have a really nice guy join this forum, and then get attacked from a bunch of members who follow the same ideology, etc...and then that person just becomes real defensive and aggressive.
Hmm ...

[Abu_Talha]

It is not really the case that people respect Abuz Zubair for his manners, or that he is popular as you make out him to be.

I personally take what is good from him, and do not hesitate to criticise him where he is lacking.

LOL yeah I wouldn't say Akhi Abuz Zubair's manners were his strongest points (not that I don't respect the brother, mashallah his knowledge is very beneficial).

[Abu_Talha]

I think that this forum brings out the worst in people.

It only brings out what you release. Most people here are following pretty much the same 'ideology' with differences here and there, none of which should be cause of such stupid divisions and childish name calling that I've seen on the forum.

Seriously, on this forum, all it takes is Person A to disagree with Person B, before Person B starts a rant on idiots and liars and Person A pitches in with fool and munafiq, and both are still quoting from the Qur'an and the Hadeeth.

It's shameful how even the eldest or the most knowledgeable amongst us doesn't have enough tact or wisdom to be able to differ without turning nasty (I'm talking about brothers here, sisters I've noticed to be much better).

Maybe we all need to grow up, the 'elders' included. This is a bloody forum, get over it (bloody is not a swear word in Australia, so GET OVER IT!)

[I_Am_A_Hermit]

It only brings out what you release. Most people here are following pretty much the same 'ideology' with differences here and there, none of which should be cause of such stupid divisions and childish name calling that I've seen on the forum.

Seriously, on this forum, all it takes is Person A to disagree with Person B, before Person B starts a rant on idiots and liars and Person A pitches in with fool and munafiq, and both are still quoting from the Qur'an and the Hadeeth.

It's shameful how even the eldest or the most knowledgeable amongst us doesn't have enough tact or wisdom to be able to differ without turning nasty (I'm talking about brothers here, sisters I've noticed to be much better).
Maybe we all need to grow up, the 'elders' included. This is a bloody forum, get over it (bloody is not a swear word in Australia, so GET OVER IT!)

Well said.

[William Wurkmun Fosterr]

Respect is not a gift that we should reserve for any age or demographic. Respect, by its nature, is meant to be given as liberally as possible to all without exception. No one is afforded too much respect. "What goes around comes around." It is the person who respects that is given respect and in this light we should all be desperate to give respect.:)