Qur'an is uncreated - what does this mean?

[abuzakarya]

As-salamu alaykum. I know that Ahl as-Sunnah wa'l Jama'ah say the Qur'an is the uncreated speech of Allah but what does that actually mean? What is meant by the opposite i.e. the Qur'an is created and why is this kufr? Why is this kufr and not bid'ah? :? Jazakallah khayr.

[Abuz Zubair]

as-Salaamu 'Alaikum,

Good question! This is something we will be discussing in detail in our online lessons in Aqeeda - when they start (and pray that it's soon!).

Mu'tazila's philosophy is that actions are not eternal, because when a person performs an action, that means that action did not exist before and it came into being later on. They say that since Allah is eternal, he cannot have a non-eternal attribute, and therefore, they negate that Allah performs actions and movements, and from them His Speech.

They then felt the need to satisfy the Quran readers, by responding to numerous explicit verses that mention Quran being the 'speech of Allah' (Kalam Allah). So they said: Fine! Quran is the speech of Allah as Allah says in His Book, however, it is not his eternal attribute, rather Allah created a separate entity called 'the speech' and that is how he revealed the Quran, the created speech of Allah, or so they claim.

Our response to them is that it is a nonsensical, irrational and illogical claim that speech is independent of the speaker and completely separate. Because speech, as an attribute must be an attribute of something tangible, like colours are attributes, but they cannot exist on their own as separate entities, they must be attributes of something tangible. Similarly, speech cannot exist on its own, rather it is spoken by the speaker. And this boils down to the question of 'is the object and its attributes two separate entities? Or are they one and the same?' And a simple answer to this question is, that to distinguish between the object and its attributes as two separate entities is limited to ones imagination only, which has no real existence outside of our minds.

To believe that Quran is created is regarded to be Kufr as it entails the denial of explicit verses of the Quran that affirm the Speech of Allah in its various forms, from the Quran, to Allah speaking to Prophets etc.

But more on that during our online lessons, pray that they start soon!

wasalam

[asharee_salafi]

Assalaamulekum,

the asharis and the muatazilah say that the quraan is an expression of the kalam of allah since how can the quran be eternal if it is in piecemeal parts with one letter coming after the other.

but, what i would like to ask is this, when i was hizb ut tahrir we learned that things that were limited were created,

an example is this universe, one evidence of it being finite is that , events that have already come about have happend, if the universe was eternal then, everything would of come about by now. for instance why am i typing now? and not a long time ago, if the universe was eternal,

but what about Allah? why has allah chosen to account some people on a certain day, why has he spoken to people on a set day,in a finite time?

( i hope you get what im saying!?)

[ali]

all of this (not what you all are saying) is from ilmu-kalaam. Innovated rhetoric fo the jahmiyah and the m'utazila.

I though that hizbu tahrir deviated in matter of manhaj and only one matter on aqeeda (khabrul-ahaad) but i never thought that they spoke of this. It seems that they have adopted the way of the mutakalimoon (philosiphers)

[asharee_salafi]

Assalaamulekum,

ALI! subhanAllah, no it is not just ahad narrations we differ with them upon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

for instance they ALLOW the folllowing opinions;

Man creates his own actions

iman doesnt go up and down

iman is just beleif without action and without tongue

isa,mahdi, punishment from the grave, the sirrat all are DISBELEIVABLE.

that Allah wont be seen

that Allahs attriButes are figurative

the above they will deny, i know, bcos when i was in HT we used to deny it by 'smoothing it out' for instance they will say we dont 'adopt' on the beleifs i.e its not something their party has a posistion upon, but this is decpetive, since the FACT that they deem permissible those beliefs and within the realms of a 'difference of opinion' is enough for them to be labled deviant!

notice i said they 'ALLOW' there members to hold such opinions.

[ali]

na'am ur right akhee i forgot.

also can u tell me why u name ur self ashari salafi