Who are the true salafeeyoon??

[abu-musa_al-leeby]

الحمد لله رب العالمين، والصلاة والسلام على أشرف الأنبياء والمرسلين، وعلى آله وصحبه، ومن اهتدى بهديه إلى يوم الدين، وبعد :


1-ALLAHU TA'ALA SAYS (what translated means)
(AND LIKEWISE WE HAVE MADE YOU ALL A BALANCED NATION SO THAT YOU MAYBE A WITNESS AGAINST THE PEOPLE AND THAT THE MESSENGER THE WILL BE A WITNESS AGAINST YOU)
2-AND IT HAS BEEN ATTRIBUTED TO THE MESSNEGR OF ALLAH 9ALAIHISALAM)THAT HE SAID"THE BEST OF AFFAIRS ARE THE BALANCED OF IT"
I advise all the brothers and sisters to read the chapter in shaykhul-islaam ibnu-taymiyah's essay entitled -'AQEEDATUL-WAASITIYAH"
where ibnu taymiyah talks about the middleway and how ahlusunnah are upon a balanced path between the astary groups of this ummah the same way the religion of islaam is a middleway amongst
man-made religions(whether their usool be from allah or not)
Read the chapter my brothers and sisters and contemplate whats happening nowadays where people are now realizing that the salafee da'wah is the true da'wah of the messengers and prophets('alihimisalam)
but what we find is that 2 groups have claimed for themselves salvation and victory and that all others that call themselves salafeeyoon are not upon the haqq unless they join there jama'aah.

the first group bussies itself with declaring people innovators for the slightest mistake and in issues of ijtihaad and because they have no usool or guidelines in declaring one to be a mubtadi' they started to declare each other mubtadi'ah!!!At first it was 'abdurahmaan abdulkhaliq and then abullah a-ssabt and then 'ar;oor and then al-maghrawee and then al-ma'ribee and then the one who was behind all the tajreeh was majrooh himself!!! and they test people on whether fulaan or 'illaan is a mubtadi' or not and if you shrug your shoulder and say "i dont know then you arent really a true salafee or your not clear or other terms of tajreeh which they use.So they made the entire deen warning against the innovator(sometimes the one theyARE warning from is more salafee than they are) and they have used the cover of teaching the people the sunnah and warning them from innovations to declare people innovators.

the second group are the extemists in takfeer that declare all those who dont declare fahd to be kaafir a murji' or upon the usool of the murji'aa and these people are so jaahil even in their speciality(takfeer) so if you believe that judging by the secular law is kufr akbar but you refrain from calling a specifc ruler a kafir they consider this irjaa'!! and little do they know that the issue of declaring a mu'ayin to be kaafir isnt an issue of 'aqeedah but rather it is an issue of fiqh!masaakeen!
They consider shaikh ibn baz to be a kaafir and act like they respect him to fool their new followers because frankly who is going to sit with anyone that considers the 'ulamaa of the salafee da'wah to be a kuffar??
for example one of their 'ulamaa who calls himself abdulaadir abdul-azeez
(which is a fake name by the way) says"

ونحن نرى في زماننا هذا الحكام المرتدين في شتى البلدان قد اصطنع كل منهم طائفة من المشايخ هو يخلع عليهم الألقاب الفضفاضة - كأصحاب الفضيلة والسماحة - تلبيساً على العامة لترويج باطلهم، وهم يخلعون عليه خِلعة الإيمان والشرعية الإسلامية تضليلا للعامة، فهؤلاء المشايخ وأمثالهم لاشك في كفرهم وردتهم، لقوله تعالى: {وَمَنْ يَتَوَلَّهُمْ مِنْكُمْ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْهُمْ}، ولرضاهم بالكفر، ولعدم تكفيرهم للحكام الكافرين الذين دَلّ الدليل على كفرهم، قال عبد الله بن المبارك رحمه الله:
وهل أفسَدَ الدينَ إلا الملوك ُ وأحبارُ سوء ٍ ورهبانُها) اهـ [ ]. ) الجامع في طلب العلم الشريف.

"and we see in our time apostate rulers in many countries manufacture groups of mashyikh and he gives them these big titles like "their eminnce or the honourable ones"to deceive the general masses to spread their baatil and in exchange these mashayikh give the rulers titles of imaan and that there governments are islamically legitimate to deceive the general masses
so these mashyikh and their likes there should be no doubt in their kufr and apostasy"


so this is as clear as the sun on who he is referring to and this khaarijee didnt even make an excepion!!!!! for his kalaam is 'aam for all the 'ulamaa in all the lands that have positons in the government.
and these 2 methodologies can be seen in the western world on 2 main forums

****-talafitalk
and islamic world forum-khawaarijj world forum

so beware my brothers and sisters and traverse the middleway that allah has bestowed upon us.
WASSALAMU ALAIKUM

[MosDef]

Give us the daleel for the takfeer of Ibn Baz or stop the drivel.

Tell us also ONLY GROUP or Commander of Mujahideen that this "middle" group supports? Physically and Financially - Just one to start with.

No blanket "we support palestine" statements please - Or is it Tasfiyah/Tarbiyah first?

Let me guess - the middle group resides on AhYa.Org Forum? Mwahaha.

Stop blowing your own trumpet.

Death to the Tawagheet!

Feesabeelillah

[Mansoor Ali]

I have heard these neo-Khawaarij shaytaans make takfeer of Imaam ibn Baaz. Their justification for doing takfeer of him is saying that he allowed half a million American soldiers into Saudi Arabia. These people don't admit that ibn Baaz knew about Israel and America being together but he also believed that people's lives were in danger in Saudi Arabia.

Such people call themselves Muslims and they make takfeer of Muslim scholars.

[MosDef]

Mansoor Ali AKA Greaser,

You seem to hear and relay a lot but like your waffle about 9/11 there is not much stone-solid daleel.

The Mujahideen dont make takfeer of Ibn Baz - the guy made a mistake - he was a good scholar, May Allah have mercy on him.

But we all know it was a massive mistake to allow the dogs into Arabia. So they now must be expelled.

We all know Fahad the Pervert is a tyrant and is anti-Islam yet they hide under Kufr duna Kufr.

"and we see in our time apostate rulers in many countries manufacture groups of mashyikh and he gives them these big titles like "their eminnce or the honourable ones"to deceive the general masses to spread their baatil and in exchange these mashayikh give the rulers titles of imaan and that there governments are islamically legitimate to deceive the general masses
so these mashyikh and their likes there should be no doubt in their kufr and apostasy"

How do you know he was referring to Ibn Baz? LOL You must have got this mentality from KhAlid al Anbaari the Murji - The King Lover. The LIAR!

He could have been talking about the grand mufti Syria who supported the Ali worshipper, or the idiot from Egypt who supports the headscarf ban etc etc.

[Mansoor Ali]

Mosdef,

What does 'Greaser' mean?

You said

You seem to hear and relay a lot but like your waffle about 9/11 there is not much stone-solid daleel.

I met these neo-khawaarij shaytaans in London last year. They were trying to convince me that imaam ibn Baaz was a kaafir. When I refused to believe that he was a kaafir one of their elders told them to leave me.
So I know what I'm talking about.

As for Khaalid Al-Anbaree, I agree he wrote a book which is on the way of the Murji'a.

As for 9/11 there is no proof that Muslims carried out the attacks. Don't mention the 19 martyrs video - it is doubtful. 5 of the nineteen hijackers turned up alive in Saudi Arabia after the attacks.

Saudi Arabia's Foreign Minister Prince Saud Al-Faisal told the Arabic Press "It was proved that five of the names included in the FBI list had nothing to do with what happened."

The Telegraph obtained the first interviews with the men since they learnt that they were on the FBI's list of hijackers who died in the crashes in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania.

STILL ALIVE AFTER THE ATTACKS -
AL NAMI, AL SHEHRI, AL OMARI, AL GHAMDI, AL-MIHDHAR

There is also proof bombs brought down the World Trade Centre towers.
Learn what is happening in the world. Educate yourself about the New World Order.

[gag order]

neo - khawarij ???

bring forward a description of a khawarij and we will see to which group it fits, the mujahideen of allah or the allies of al-saud?

[Mansoor Ali]

I call them neo-khawaarij because just as the khawaarij made takfeer of Muslims these people make takfeer of Muslim scholars. I am not an ally of aali-Sa'ood.

[gag order]

br mansoor

the khawarij make takfeer on muslims who commit even the minor sins but the "neo kharijites" as you call them - they dont do that and they have never done that. so the term neo kharijites its not applicable by definition.

let me illustrate my point;

if a leader legislates that eating pork is halal then he has disbelieved in the ayah where allah says that it is haram. it is major kufr and a nullifier to reject even 1 ayah if i were to make takfeer on this leader would i be a neo kahrijite or just stating the obvious fact that the leader is a kafir?

an example of a kharijite; imagine you stepped into the masjid with your left foot first, a kharijite will be quick to make takfeer!

do not confuse the khawarij with those who make educated takfeer that is well substantiated becos the difference between the 2 is like the difference between night and day!

[abu-musa_al-leeby]

mosdef go and seek knowldege and i mean it sincerely ya akhee you really need to get your act together and start with the abc's of 'ilm before the major issues wassalam

[gag order]

ibn taymiyyah fought against the tartars and made takfir on them because of "al yaasiq" ie judging by man made laws and implementing some sharia.

today the leaders are still implementing "al yaasiq" a bit of islam and the rest man made laws, in this situation the brothers who make takfeer and fight against the rulers are they not justified since ijtihad for such circumstances already exist?

for the one who declares takfir on rulers and opposes them would the charasteristics of the khawarij apply? if yes then the tartars would have evrey right to declare ibn taymiyyah a kharijee !!!

[abu-musa_al-leeby]

as-salaamu alaikum


yes without doubt ya akhee that there is no real diffrence between the yaasiq of genghis khaan and what is being implemented in most lands today and there should be doubt that the judging by these laws is clear kufr but to start a jihaad agsinst these rulers in their lands is very difficult not to mention that the only victims would be police officers and soldiers who maybe ignorant to the fact that these governments judge by the taaghoot or that there actions are kufr and trust me when i tell you that alot of these policemen wouldnt know the nullifications of wudhoo let alone big issues like this.Bear in mind ya akhee that ibn taymiyah encited the egyptian ruler who had an army and capabilities to make jihaad.So it was an organized jihaad with an army and not a bunch of youth who shoot a police officer or kill a few tourist or blow up a tourist area and then run and hide in some apartment somewhere like was the case in egypt!!!
there must be an army and a banner before any jihaad can occur against
these rulers

wallahu a'lam

wassalam.

[gag order]

salam

i dont think the aim is to kill police or soldiers the aim is to kill kaafirs but if muslim cops and soldiers betray their own muslims and fire upon fellow muslims (jihadis) in order to protect the enemies of allah and they should expect the same back!

even the most ignorant know the principle of islam - you never kill your own kind on behalf of kaafirs so no excuse can be made for them particulalrly when these same cops and soldiers are "indoctrinated" against jihadis as part of their training - they choose to believe the orientalist/modernist nonsense fed to them by their instructors!

"and no muslim shall assaissinate a fellow muslim on behalf of a kaafir nor should he render any help to a kaafir against a fellow muslim" (the sahifa of medina) i already knew this by intuition even before i read the text. i knew this even when i was a 100% jahill years ago. so no excuse can be made for cops and soldiers particulalrly in saudi where the standard of islamic education is comparitively better and higher then any where else. i know this because i have seen saudi cops in action against barelvis in madina i was actually impressed with their knowledge of what and what is not biddah !

i will provide some evidences for your consideration that seem to justify jihadi acts of terror in saudi inshallah

[Samira]

ibn abdul Wahhaab made takfir on me in his book.
:x :x :x :x
This is very amusing, because Allah SWT told me He knows I have faith.

He clearly used verses aimed against the disbelieers against the muslims.

When asked about the Kharijites, Abdullah ibn Umar would see them as the worst of Allahs creation and say: "Verily they used verses revealed for the unbelievers against the believers."

Hallmarks of the khawarij:
*Using verses for the unbelievers against the believers
*Making takfir on Muslims.

[Abdullah]

Asalaam alaykum
Brother Gag order, I have come across brothers who say that the police men and women are kafirs and they are allowed to be targeted, especially those brothers from the Algerian region. The evidence they use are regarding upholding the laws of kufr?

Allah hu alim

[Perestroika]

He clearly used verses aimed against the disbelieers against the muslims.


This is a very serious accusation, can you provide any evidence and examples?

[gag order]

wether cops are kafir or not makes no difference consider this:

"if with the kuffar there are pious people from the best of mankind and it is not possible to fight these kuffar except by killing them ("muslims") then they are to be killed as well" said ibn taymiyyah in majmoo fatawa 28/537.

for arguments sake let us assume these algerian cops for example are muslims then "the sunnah and ijma agree that if the aggresion of a muslim aggressor cannot be stopped except by killing him then he must be killed, even if the aggression is over a fraction of a dinar" said ibn taymiyyah (ibid 28/45)

these algerian cops love to implement secularism just as the tatar cops loved to implement al yaasiq (secularism) and just as the tartar cops were labelled kaafir and killed by an islamic rebellion so to the algerian cops be killed in the so called acts of terror.

my brothers and sisters just as we are faithful to our religion so to are the cops faithful to there adopted religion of al yaasiq (secularism)

just as we are indoctrinated with quran and sunnah so to are the cops indoctrinated to hate practising believers as part of their training.

[Samira]

Yes, there is at least one verse from the Quran that he uses that begins: If you ask the DISBELIEVERS. There are numerous books refuting his takfir on ahlus sunnah, check them out. For instance, there is a verse about asking the unbelievers why they worship idols, the idolators saying because they will act as intermediaries.He then applies this verse to ahlus sunnah, to say anyone who uses pious muslims or Rasulullah (SAW) [by asking 'for their sake] as an intermediary is a mushrik. He says the dead have no sense, then he says that inanimate objects do. I don't wish to go into detail on this subject, because I'm not a scholar. What I've learnt about the khawarij is mostly from other scholars. I just think his book lacks credibilty (as in the case I mentioned above on him making takfir on me, and Allah telling me the opposite). The best thing to come from the salafis though is an article I read: Is the weatherman a fortune teller!
Grand! Great stuff, always raises a smile.:lol: Fortune teller, how are you!

[Perestroika]

There are numerous books refuting his takfir on ahlus sunnah, check them out.


Yes numerous Sufi and Habashi books saying the Wahhabies are bad without any proof. Seen them, they are for schoolchildren. :)


He then applies this verse to ahlus sunnah, to say anyone who uses pious muslims or Rasulullah (SAW) [by asking 'for their sake] as an intermediary is a mushrik.


Asking for their sake and asking them is a big difference, asking 'saints' or even Rasool Allah(SAW), is Shirk Akbar, which is as clear as 2*2. This is a new way that Sufies try to comuflage their shirk in. (saying that they ask for their sake). The only problem being that I am from a Sufi background, I know what they ask and from whom, so I won't buy this.

Moreover, can you explain how you do Salat when in the 5th Ayat of Fatiha you Say: Iyaka na`abudu wa Iyaka nastai`n?


I don't wish to go into detail on this subject, because I'm not a scholar.


I am sorry sister, but you are a vicitim of propaganda. I understand you coz once I was myself an anti-wahhabi, coz of reading the similar booklets. I am not saying that the Sheikh could not have made any mistakes, I say that this man, may Allah have mercy on him, cleaned this Deen from centuries darkness, and because he raised the banner of Tawhid, masha Allah, we can now expect the help of Allah.

[ibn abbas]

Samira is right.

ibn abdul wahab and his followers massacred and killed many sunni muslims in the Arabian peninsula, because he did takfeer of them.

Instead of the wahabies fighting and killing the English coloniolist kafirs, they started fighting the ahlul Sunna and the Ottoman Khilafa.

[ali]

samira said
ibn abdul Wahhaab made takfir on me in his book.


So how did he make takfeer of you.

[ali]

a lot of he so called jihaadi hizbis seems to blame the saud family on what happened to the revolt against the ottoman khilaafa.

what they may be ignorant of either by choice or not, is that the ones who revolted against the khilaafa uthmaaniyyah was not other than the turkish governor himself in the hijaaz.

while the turkish governor revolted then this was when Saud took the oppurtunity to take actions in their hands. Saud was not the one who revolted against the khilaafa, rather i was the turkish governor (forgot his name) who did the job.

[ali]

mosdef said "at first"The Mujahideen dont make takfeer of Ibn Baz - the guy made a mistake - he was a good scholar, May Allah have mercy on him.


yet he says this so these mashyikh and their likes there should be no doubt in their kufr and apostasy"


akhee can u explain the variance

[abu zakeeyah]

Assalam alaikum
This link might help in clearing some misconceptions in this issue
www.geocities.com/jihadfiles/7misregime.htm

[abu-musa_al-leeby]

masha'allah ya aba zubair look at what your forum has become!!!!itaqillah ya rajjul!!!!!

[asharee_salafi]

Assalaamulekum, no doubt samira is a habbashee, i can tell from the way you speak, you say that ibn abdul wahab called you a kafir?.

<EDITED>
when sheikh abdul wahab says that if such a person does such an act he becomes a kafir, he doesnt mean it to all people, he is speaking generally,

if an ignorant person asks a dead grave for something, you have to judge him as a muslim, once you give him dawah and he understand that its wrong and then continues in his act of shirk, THEN he becomes a kafir.

any ways, the habashees are the worst when it comes to takfir AND LIEING! you even lie against your own asharee brethren! on your 'talk about' website

[ali]

And this is where alot of people fall into misunderstanding the statements of the Imaams because they speak in generality nad not specifically. Imaam Abdul-Wahhab has spoken that anyone who fell into the beleifs of what you ascribe to (habashiyah) is a kaafir by way of warning the muslims not to fll inot such innovated beleifs. We also Have Imkaam malik who called someone a Mubtadi and removed him from the circle only to show to the people the seriousness of the matter and not that he performed a specific hukm on that person. And many things we find from the sunnah of our prophet salallahu alaihi wa salam who he made takfeer of generally like worship in other then allah like the habashis do and other such sects from the firqa
so if anyone were to say that someone from the likes of the imaams and like abdul-waahaab rahimahullah were peforming takfeer of them then they BETTER KNOW that the prophet has also performed takferr of them to. So they can take it specifically if they want even though it is just a warning not to fall in it.

[gag order]

it is obvious that the ottomans deserved to be removed THEY STOPPED DAWAH AND JIHAD! and fell into sufism that says there is no dawah no jihad and no sharia there is only kalam.

so just as the house of saud establish themselves by force of arms then by force of arms they will be removed and may be alqaida are the ones to do that

the topic is who are the true salafyoon ?

al qaida and if not it would be interesting to know why not

[ali]

I dont understand the concept of some people.

If tawheed is the one thing that Allah and His messenger came with and fought everything that oppossed it (shirk in all forms) then we have to jugde a people by that.

Now it is plain clear that all the islaamic countries have a taghooti rule (not by the rule of Allah). So now we must jugde them from the actions that eminate from them since the best we can do now is the taghooti regimes. I mean if their was an islamic state then there is no doubt in who should be given bayah to.

So how is it that of all the countries who many of the regimes beleives in secularism and kufr and shirk from all the government leaders and the only 1 country who actually calls to tawheed (i mean by this allows the correct aqeeda and manhaj) to be taught and implemented (even though they may not rule by Allah) how is it they they (saud) have the most heat from all the people who oppose taghooti regimes when they are the only ones who actually allow at least some of the shariah implemented in their legal system

What im saying, and I hope people can see where im coming from, is that even through rational thinking and common sense if we do not have a khilaafa and there are many Islaamic countries with kingships, and there is only one who allows tawheed and opposses shirk and the rest have a much leniant legal system bent on other than the haq, then why would we oppse that country more vehemently then the rest.
Me personally if i was on the manhaj of opposing rulers and governments, then i would focus on algeria, libya, iraq, and places like that where shi'sm is practiced, shirk and kufr roams freely there with no opposition, turkey as well. Im not saying that saudia is the khilaafa nor am i defending the false positions of why they negate alot of the sharia, but i mean if our kaleema is al-kaleematu-tahweed (la illaha ilallah), then should we fight or side with a country who is the closest one in attesting and allowing for that call (tawheed) to roam freely and oppossed the many other forms of shirk.

Can some one give me some feed back on a knowledge based discussion on this issue as im trying to find out the other perspectives and undertandings.

asalamu alaikum