Errors in holly Quran [Archive]

Abu Faaris As-Sumalee

23rd November 2006, 09:47 PM

you morbius are by far one of the most stupid and most twisted christians i have ever encounterd, who's only reason for posting is to misguide people.

I started to write a reply to each and everyone of your stupid points, and while i was doing that i found you and your zionistic christians to be extreme liars, with no understanding of islam. To be rearanging verses to make them seem like contradictions,and i was amazed by your complete and utter ignorance of the arabic language and just overal retardiness on the level of your president.How sad for people who claim to be upon the truth, that they have to lie inorder to bring people to that truth.

While i was writing up the refutation i saw some of your points as fermilular ,and i rememberd that there was a website wich destroyed these claims before ,and low and behold it is still up. so i encourage anyone who was stupid enough to be fooled by all of that balderdash , to go to this site wich answers all of the rubish that these fanatic angelics come with.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/thetruth.htm#answers

May Allah reward the brothers that had the patience to reply to all the bile that comes from these enemys of jesus(peace be upon him).

...and morbius, please dont flatter yourself by thinking that i posted this so you could go on it and learn the truth. No, i know your kind ,and i know you and searching for the truth dont go together.

Noorah

24th November 2006, 01:34 PM

the list is by ignorants have havent found mistakes in the Quran but rather were too dumb to actually understand the Quran

morbius

24th November 2006, 04:54 PM

al-gharib

24th November 2006, 05:28 PM

Abu Faaris, if only you knew how far from the truth your conclusions are.

I will check the link you have left, but I would like someone here to check something for me. I have downloaded Quran from this link and I need someone to see if it is truly the official English translation of Quran:
http://www.al-sunnah.com/download/QuranPikhtal.pdf

are you looking at english translatio nofthe quran? quran has criterai one ofthem is it has to be in arabic uthmani scripture..
hence as a muslim we all have to learn to readarabic in order to read the quran.. and arabic has many meaning for one word.. and every1 agrees its veryh ard to translate arabic into other langauges so they take best possible menaing..
if you can find mistake in arabic quran then let us know..
also what you mean by mistake.. meaning its notright.. how do you know its a msitake wha tare you comparinf it with?

morbius

24th November 2006, 08:56 PM

I’m doing some checking on explanations given by Mishaal ibn Abdullah (link above) and I see that proving any of these errors conclusively is going to be much harder than I thought.
It seems that old Arab is unbelievably complicated language where everything can have several meanings. And Mishaal in many places instead of explaining the mater is rather trying to confuse the mater. Plus, my version of Quran usually offers different translations than the one that finder of the mistakes used.

But I think we could start with this:

What did the God made man from:

Was it cloth [96:1-2]?
Was it water [21:30, 24:45, 25:54]?
Was it clay for pottery [15:26]?
Was it dust [3:59, 30:20, 35:11]?

There are also mentioning that man was created of fluid and earth, but what is clay if not earth and what is water if not fluid, so I think those can be safely discarded. Mishaal does offer an explanation to this, but I’m not satisfied with it. I think this is worth a discussion, if you agree.

Abuz Zubair

24th November 2006, 09:43 PM

Morbius, knowing that you do not know Arabic, I am surprised that you come up with something which is so crystal clear in English, and yet you want to deliberately make it into a contradiction - in Arabic, while you do not even know the language...

Was it cloth [96:1-2]?
CLOTH?!

What English translation have you been using, matey?! A cloth?!

May be you mean a clot, and this refers to the early stages of a foetus in the womb.

Was it water This refers to semen. Ma' al-Rajul - Man's water, literal refers to semen. Go to any Arab on the street and ask him: 'hal anta min ma' abik', and see what he says! (dont try it btw, cuz it means: Are you really from your father's water, i.e. semen?)

Was it clay for pottery [15:26]?Pottery?!

This is getting more hilarious! The clay refers to the intial creation of Man, i.e. Adam.

Was it dust [3:59, 30:20, 35:11]?
Dust/Sand mixed with water it becomes clay.

This is something so obvious, you do not even need to know Arabic to understand this!

This only shows that the problem is either with your intellect, that you couldn't grasp something as simple as that, OR

The problem is with your heart, that you are simply averse to anything non-European, non-white, non-Christian. And if latter is the case, then surely you are not psychologically fit to have an honest discussion.

OR; you took this information from an anti-Islamic website, who presented this information with such deceit that you thought it was a contradiction. In this case I would suggest you read the Quran yourself, from the beginning till the end and make up your own conclusions instead of relying on anti-islamic sources. You would not learn anything positive about Islam or Muslims there, and your thinking will always be biased.

Logic lover

24th November 2006, 10:47 PM

Human beings have been/are created from a combination of substances (like dust, water, semen etc) and in stages. We are also made of Iron, Carbon and so on.

Mentioning one of these substances to the exclusion of others does not necessitate a contradiction, as long as there is no exclusion cause in a particular statement. This is the basic logical point.

morbius

25th November 2006, 02:24 PM

Logic lover, that is a very thin explanation and I’m pretty sure it’s not what Muhamed had in mind.
Shouldn’t we find it at least a little bit strange that Quran says nothing about creation of man from the monkey?
Instead, it supports that childish story about Adam and Eve. (Does your version also have apple and snake like ours?)

abu imaan an-nepalee

25th November 2006, 02:34 PM

Logic lover, that is a very thin explanation and I’m pretty sure it’s not what Muhamed had in mind.

ok, you tell us then

Shouldn’t we find it at least a little bit strange that Quran says nothing about creation of man from the monkey?

why?

gag order

25th November 2006, 07:05 PM

Shouldn’t we find it at least a little bit strange that Quran says nothing about creation of man from the monkey?

what morbius meant was

Shouldn’t we find it at least a little bit strange that Quran says nothing about the evolution of man from the apes?

you are an ignoramous even in secular knowledge as well ?

morbius

25th November 2006, 08:10 PM

This refers to semen. Ma' al-Rajul - Man's water, literal refers to semen.
Trust me, you do not want to go down this path of explaining because you’ll shoot yourself in the foot. Quran teaches that babies are made from mixing “man water” that comes from a place close to his backbone and “female water” that comes from her chest, if I remember correctly. This is not how babies are made, Mac.

Logic lover

25th November 2006, 08:37 PM

I will be pleased if you could answer the post of brother Abu Iman An-Nepalee.
One can be brief, if necessary. It is not illogical to reply in brief, if that is thought to be enough.

It will be interesting to know how you manage to know the mind of our beloved Muhammad, peace be upon him. Also please provide the reference (of the Quranic verse) regarding male and female 'water' so that a response may be prepared by a Muslim, God willing.

Please confirm that you do not believe in the Biblical version on the creation of human beings.

ibn 'abd al-jabbaar

25th November 2006, 08:54 PM

“man water” that comes from a place close to his backbone

the positioning of the primordial testis (i.e. actual origin of the testes) in the posterior abdominal wall (seventh week of embryological development), which then descends down through the inguinal canal, does indeed seem to be in a place "close to his backbone".

and “female water” that comes from her chest, if I remember correctly.

can you provide a reference for this?

Abu Khalid 2

25th November 2006, 10:43 PM

Asalaamu Alaikum brothers. I recently joined and that's why I am new, lol, sorry. I just had some comments to make on this topic by the brother morbius.

Morbius, as much as misdirected you are, first of all, with all due respect, you seem to ignore common things and expect to be told that water is made of H20. Secondly, your language, Quote:

Shouldn’t we find it at least a little bit strange that Quran says nothing about creation of man from the monkey?

...sounds like some sort of childish response to an extent and if you are looking for jokes, please refrain from wasting people's time. However, if you do seek answers, take the initiative and a brother will always help you out. The theory of evolution is unfounded, not supported by scientific evidence (mind you, I'm not wasting people's time here and i dare you to come up with any sort of evidence), fossil records do not support it, Darwin himself did not believe in it by the time of his death, scientists have refuted it (if you want a list, please feel free to ask for them), and it remains a THEORY in case you have not realised. The Qur'an mentions facts and laws, miracles and man's right way of life e.t.c. For example, the Qur'an mentioned that the waters of rivers and oceans (seas) do not mix. They meet, cross and each returns to its path. How did Muhammad know this 1400 years + before. Secondly, this was proved by modern day geologists with the help of handy cameras below water! Did you even know this fact? If you did good. If you didn't, shows why you're relying on unfounded criticisms, looking at so called negative aspects of the Qur'an, which do not exist by the way, and thirdly, furthermore the reason why you should take the brothers' advice and read the Glorious book from cover to cover.

Since the Qur'an mentions only facts, you therefore expected it to mention an unfounded theory, which by the way, was developed 1400 years later...which way are you thinking exactly brother. or do you think we edit our book and corrupt it thus the same way the christians unfortunately did, and so did the jews and every other holy scripture in this world. Fact! I dare you to challenge it.

On the theory of evolution, evolution does not account for the formation of DNA. Do you know that DNA has to be present for the formation of RNA and that RNA has to be present for the formation of DNA. thus scientists have agreed that for them to exist today as they are, it is not possible for any one of them to have existed without or before the other and they both have to have come into existence at the same time, at the same place! How? want me to spell it out for you, CREATION! The theory of evolution does not account for subjects such as the Cambrian Explosion (the geologically sudden appearance in the fossil record of the ancestors of familiar animals, starting about 542 million years ago (Mya)), and biological complexity. I would just like to quote three things from Harun Yahya briefly, "Francis Crick, for instance, one of the scientists who revealed the helix shape of DNA admitted in the face of the findings regarding DNA that the origin of life indicated a miracle:

An honest man, armed with all the knowledge available to us now, could only state that in some sense, the origin of life appears at the moment to be almost a miracle, so many are the conditions which would have had to have been satisfied to get it going. (1)

Based on his calculations, Led Adleman of the University of Southern California in Los Angeles has stated that one gram of DNA can store as much information as a trillion compact discs. (2) Gene Myers, a scientist employed on the Human Genome Project, has said the following in the face of the miraculous arrangements he witnessed:

"What really astounds me is the architecture of life… The system is extremely complex. It's like it was designed… There's a huge intelligence there." (3)"...end Harun Yahya.

Physical laws such as the first and second laws of thermodynamics further demolish the theory. And on embryonic development, all scientists, those that have looked into the matter and the Qur'an at the same time state that it is impossible that the Prophet would have known in such detail about a process that they had to struggle for 1400 years to discover, adding that the Qur'an is indeed a miracle and was revealed. brother, all answers are available to you, Insha-Allah. But you must be serious and forthcoming, there is indeed no time to waste. I cannot even call the above the tip of the ice-berg. What the brothers alone can tell you is like comparing the earth to Arcturus, the biggest star in the northern hemisphere. The Qur'an is therefore the word of God, revealed by God and unto his noble messenger, Muhammad (Sallahu Alayhi Wasalaam). It is error free 100%, and you are not the first brother, people have been trying for 1400 years, including the jews and the vatican, who by the way failed in the wonderful simplest challenge in the Qur'an. Allah says that if you doubt it (the Qur'an) as being from non-other than him, than produce a single chapter like it, the shortest of which is surah Al-Kawthar by the way. The vatican and every human who's ever tried it have failed miserably in the attempt. So come forth, be serious (in which case you'll end up believing Insha-Allah by the way) or back off or (if you're really stubborn) keep challenging until you're simply tired. Wa Qual Jaa'al Haqu wa Zahagal baatil, Inal Baatila Kaana Zahuuqa. Oh, and dear brothers and sisters in islam, so for making this really long being my first post. Jazkumullahu Kairan. Asalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuhu.

morbius

25th November 2006, 10:52 PM

ok, you tell us then

I personally think Muhamed meant to say that God made man from mud (earth + water), as biblical legend claims.

morbius

25th November 2006, 10:53 PM

what morbius meant was

Shouldn’t we find it at least a little bit strange that Quran says nothing about the evolution of man from the apes?

You may put it that way, too. But I don’t believe that it is adoption to the habitat that creates new species (as Darwin claimed) because we know today that characteristics acquired during life are not passed to the offspring by genes. Instead, I feel that it’s God who causes positive changes in the gene pool, creating new forms of life. But science may one day prove me wrong on this, we’ll see.

morbius

26th November 2006, 01:36 AM

Abu Khalid 2, thank you for your lengthy post and your willingness to contribute here.

I would like to point to you couple of of things:

1. Simple organisms do not have DNA. For instance, virus only has RNA. Prions don’t even have any kind of genetic material, but than again, it is hard to call prions living organisms anyway.

2. Water of the river and water of the sea might not mix because of the difference in density caused by different temperatures and quantity of minerals in water. But eventually, salt will migrate, temperatures will even up and waters will mix. There is no miracle in that.

3. Maybe you have heard that project of mapping human genome was successfully completed last year, it was in all the media. Now we know about every gene in human body and it will one day help us understand how every one of them works.
This project also gave some very conclusive information – human shares between 98,2% and 98,6% of gene material with Gorilla and Chimpanzee, our closest animal cousins. There is now no doubt in my mind that all primates had a common ancestor.

4. I believe that God created man, but not by sculpting it out of mud, as primitive minds have thought.

5. I’ve seen on many places this argument that Quran is so perfect that nothing like it can be created, but I don’t understand what is meant by it. To me, it looks very much like our Christian Bible. In what way is it perfect?

morbius

26th November 2006, 01:37 AM

the positioning of the primordial testis (i.e. actual origin of the testes) in the posterior abdominal wall (seventh week of embryological development), which then descends down through the inguinal canal, does indeed seem to be in a place "close to his backbone".

But sperm cells are not created in this primordial testis, are they? Testis descends at about 3 years of age.
I’ve seen explanations that this “place” that creates “man water” is actually prostate, gland which secretes some of sperm fluid, but I wouldn’t say it’s near the backbone really. It is placed bellow the blather, frontal to the rectum.

can you provide a reference for this?
I’m very sorry, but I don’t have it. Maybe you could use one of the online Qurans, just use a “search” option to look for “female water” or something like that. I’m pretty sure I remembered this part correctly, but I wouldn’t swear to it.

morbius

26th November 2006, 02:07 AM

Actually, testis descends in the 7th month of life inside the womb. Sorry, sorry, sorry…

Abu Khalid 2

27th November 2006, 01:14 AM

Asalaamu Alaikum ya ikhwan.

Dear morbius, this is not a refutation chamber but your points, with al due respect, have no basis at all. Insha-Allah, I'll reply to them in the order you put them,

1. Simple organisms do not have DNA. For instance, virus only has RNA.

Are you trying to misquote me the same way you are trying to misquote the Qur'an. I said, On the theory of evolution, evolution does not account for the formation of DNA.

Now where does that tie in with your claim that i said all living things are made of DNA? Where did you get that? I talked about evolution, as you can see above and the fact that it DOES NOT account for the formation of DNA!

2. You also said, Water of the river and water of the sea might not mix because of the difference in density caused by different temperatures and quantity of minerals in water... There is no miracle in that.

Yes there is a miracle in that.
a.) in the fact that the Qur'an mentioned it 1400 years ago when there was no way of knowing this and furthermore, as you aid me with your knowledge of density e.t.c. The prophet didn't research on this did he? So are you trying to tell me that the prophet knew that, the density of seawater is between 1020 and 1030 kg·m-3, and that the maximum density of pure water at a pressure of one standard atmosphere is 999.861kg/m3 and that this occurs at a temperature of about 3.98 °C? Not even including the densities of rivers!
b.) in the claim that the Qur'an is not divine. God is trying to show you, for let alone your accusations, to make matters worse (for you), Muhammad (sallahu alayhi wasalam) was illiterate! Then you can go on and further argue that he wrote the Qur'an! That's the miracle of it.

3.) I did talk about the human genome project in my text! Did you overlook it? And the quotes I had there on what the scientists felt, for example the quote from Gene Myers? And that it is further away from what you claim? "Wa Qul Jaa'al haqu wa Zahaqqal baatil, Inal Baatila kaana Zahuuqaa." I provided even quotes and references to support my claim, while you only talk. And I am challenging you once again, quote your scientists and for every one you bring. I will bring you three's quotes against what you claim if God willing I am alive. . I can even include the references! Furthermore, when you were asked to provide references for some of the other things you claimed, you did not have any, despite the brothers having asked for it. for example your claim on female water. For we know our Qur'an brother! Don't try to make us look like fools. Furthermore, you went to the extent of asking teh brothers to look for it themselves when you are the one who made teh claim and who was seeking the answers and after they challenged you for it. You said, I’m very sorry, but I don’t have it. Maybe you could use one of the online Qurans, just use a “search” option to look for “female water” or something like that.

Want me to quote the brothers' challenge as well? Feel free to ask for it.

4.) I will not even respond to this, after saying all that I have said, it's like repeating myself. You are entitled to your beliefs. For the very same wise, almighty Allah, who created man from clay, also said, "There is no compulsion in religion." So have your beliefs brother morbius. But remember, Islam came to abolish falsehood, so if you're trying to make it prevail, you're in the wrong place. And we have come forth with the arguments and the supporting references and prepositions but you come with but unfounded claims. i don't think you have ever watched any Zakir Naik debates have you? Not that this is a debate but a mere exchange of knowledge and the destruction of falsehood and all that supports it and all that it stands on.

5.) You said, I’ve seen on many places this argument that Quran is so perfect that nothing like it can be created, but I don’t understand what is meant by it. To me, it looks very much like our Christian Bible. In what way is it perfect?

Here we go again. Oh boy! Did you even read the last quarter of my post? ...Actually I think not, judging form even your first misquotation above (no. 1). I am not going to repeat myself all over again. Plus add this to what the brothers have already mentioned to you. And just like the typical kufaar you ignore the established points once they are made clear to you. This is in direct response to no. 5 itself, for example the embryonic development of a child! I remeber you arguing about that and after I commented on it, like as if you finally comprehended, you backed off and didn't mention it. if you're going to bring it all back again, I'd be most welcome to provide all the references that I can provide. Mind you, the references I'm giving you are form your own "western scholars" apparently, giving me the upper hand. If you staid with your western scholars, which you have not provided any proof of yet, though there are plenty, and I provided sayings and evidences form our own shaikhs, we would be at par, each with his own. but I am quoting your own western sources for you, even though you manipulate the media and portray what is not in existence, and we show that it is NOT like that! I humbly, kindly welcome you to these challenges with all that you have.

However brother, it seems you are only wasting people's time from the fact that you're asking people to do stuff that you should be doing, with all due respect, and have unfounded claims and keep repeating things therefore, even though they have been established, look at my last post for example, and teh questions you asked regarding them, no.4 including things that even the brothers explained to you. I therefore see this as a continued waste of time and i asked you if you were serious regarding this matter in my last post and it seems you're not. may Allah help you, and us, and guide you and us to the straight path. Ameen. Insha-Allah, you shall see.

Jazakumullahu Kairan,

Asalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakaatuhu.

ibn 'abd al-jabbaar

27th November 2006, 01:37 AM

this is a little off topic but..

Simple organisms do not have DNA. For instance, virus only has RNA.

are you sure you are a medical professional? simple organisms, like general microflora, do have DNA. a number of viruses also have DNA as their genetic material, both ss and ds.

Abu Khalid 2

27th November 2006, 01:46 AM

wow, an even bigger blow to your intentions to becloud people. Alhamdulillah. As I said again, Wa Qul Jaa'al Haqu Wa Zahaqqal Baatil, Inal Baatila kaan Zahuuqaa. Alhamdulillah.

morbius

27th November 2006, 07:07 PM

are you sure you are a medical professional? simple organisms, like general microflora, do have DNA. a number of viruses also have DNA as their genetic material, both ss and ds.
Yes, some viruses do have DNA, even double-stranded DNA like higher animals and plants. I should have said “most viruses have only RNA”. Thanks for correcting me.
Do keep in mind that I do not claim to know the whole truth, only God knows that. As any other man, I do make mistakes, but instead of clinging to my side of the story as most people do by reflex, I admit my mistakes and try to learn from others. They say that when European scholars brought to China their books on physics based on Newton’s laws, Chinese physicists have gathered, examined those books, discussed their content, and then tore up everything that they’ve written for over a millennium and accepted this new knowledge as basics for their science.

BTW, genetics of viruses is a lot more in the field of biology than medicine.

morbius

27th November 2006, 07:09 PM

This is in response to Abu Khalid 2, but for others to read as well:

I now see that I made a mistake by not telling you my views at the beginning of the thread, but I didn’t think it was necessary back then. But I believe it’s better to explain some of it now.

I think that Quran was inspired by God (that’s why I refer to it as holly Quran), but not really dictated by God. God likes to stay hidden from men, and He doesn’t even say everything to his prophets. So all of the prophets have added some things to complete the picture, and that’s how mistakes in the holly books were made. I don’t think that Muhamed meant any evil by things he added to Quran, I believe he only had the best of intentions, wanting to create what he believed was a perfect society. Of course, things he added were influenced by his personal beliefs and Arabic traditions.
It is not my intention to convert you, or make you forsake Islam. I just want to show you that Quran indeed has man-made mistakes and therefore some of teachings in it should not be accepted blindly. There are mistakes inside Quran, as well as there are truths outside of it. And I’ll try to quote more of both in the future.

Now, let’s go back to the subject.

Would anyone else like to provide some better explanation how exactly “man water” is created near the backbone?
Am I correct to assume that Quran says that man is made from mud?
Would teaching that man is made from ape be against Quran?
Does anyone want to provide some other opinion on creation of man?

Abuz Zubair

27th November 2006, 07:13 PM

I think that Quran was inspired by God (that’s why I refer to it as holly Quran), but not really dictated by God.Morbius, are you an Ash'arite by any chance? I am asking because your belief seems strikingly similar to the Ash'arites :)

y-mughal

27th November 2006, 08:21 PM

Morbius, are you an Ash'arite by any chance? I am asking because your belief seems strikingly similar to the Ash'arites :)

man......that was so funny that out of shock I couldn't laugh....lol.

Abu Khalid 2

27th November 2006, 09:11 PM

Dumbfounded again! Ok, this is really it. Does anyone see the points I mentioned in the previous post further proved by morbius. Indeed Allah is great! And I’ll try to quote more of both in the future.

Coz he knows he doesn't have a single thing against the Qur'an. WE CHALLENGED HIM! He knows he is lying, and I am saying this point blank. Dare dare dare, come with your quotes, the verses, where are they. This is no quarrel, but you really seek to waste people's time as I said by repeating the same things over and over again. Dude, are you joking. We know every verse in the Qur'an, and by heart. You hardly know your own book, even one by the way, of which there are tens of versions and you come to challenge us in the Qur'an, how sweet. Would teaching that man is made from ape be against Quran?
Did I not write nearly 400 words on the issue! man where is this guy coming from. I am not annoyed morbius by the way, just ashamed. Ashamed at your discussions! lol.

morbius

28th November 2006, 06:26 PM

Morbius, are you an Ash'arite by any chance? I am asking because your belief seems strikingly similar to the Ash'arites :)
Never heard of them, but now that you mentioned it, I’ll check out what they preach. :)

Abu Khalid 2, I’ve made a mistake because I claimed things based on my memory and now I can’t go throw the whole Quran looking for exact verses. But trust me, I will not repeat such a mistake.

Anyway, any more comments on origin of man, or do we move on?

morbius

1st December 2006, 11:39 AM

Alright, let’s move on.

In Quran, to drink wine is a great sin [2:219] and wine is handiwork of Satan [5:90].
But if so, why is there wine in Heaven [47:15 and 83:25]?

Umm Ahmed

1st December 2006, 01:10 PM

Wine that is given in heaven will not intoxicate , nor lead to hangovers.

Every sane person knows the evils we do while under the influence so thats why its forbidden here.

morbius

1st December 2006, 05:34 PM

So, you mean to tell me that in heaven they serve wine without alchohol, if I understood you correctly?

Logic lover

1st December 2006, 06:10 PM

moribus:

The wine that will be served in Paradise is not like the wine in this world. Same goes for every other bounty in Paradise. Allah has informed us about the bounties for us to get encouragement to do good deeds.

Our body and mind will be different in Paradise, so there is not much point of saying that wine in Paradise may be free of Alcohol. Our body will be able to endure things which are not possible in this world. For example, the people of Paradise will be able to see Allah (only to suit His Majesty), but our eyesight in this world is not able to see Allah (and there is nothing like Allah).

Allah knows best.

morbius

2nd December 2006, 03:26 PM

Alright, let’s say that this heavenly wine is completely different then earthly, but what will people in hell eat?
Sura 88:6 says they will eat only dhari, which is supposed to be some sort of bitter thorny fruit, if I’m not mistaking.
But, sura 69:36 mentions they will eat only filth (in some other translations pus)
Then again, sura 37 mentions they will eat fruit of something called “tree of Zaqqam” which crop is like “heads of devils”.
Sorry if I misunderstood any of this, but so it says in this Quran I have.

Logic lover

3rd December 2006, 09:42 PM

As far as I understand the exclusive names of the food of the people of hellfire are of the same type, with different names.

For example when one says I am from America, it is also understood to mean USA.

The Quran (parts of the Words of Allah) has been revealed in Arabic as we know. The translations or its like are not Quran. It is very important to remember this fact.

Allah knows best.

Umm Ahmed

4th December 2006, 05:56 AM

Dhari , filth, thorny fruit, are all filth , filth that will tear their insides out and cause them to hold their intestines in their hands.

morbius

4th December 2006, 01:15 PM

Alright, first two can be combined, so we can say that they eat filthy dhari. But what is this “tree of Zaqqam”?

I used Google images service to find out how this “dhari” looks, but I found nothing. Could it be something that doesn’t grow in this world?

Logic lover

4th December 2006, 01:45 PM

There is no evidence that Zaqqum is unlike what has been stated by Allah in the other relvant ayats. So, one may not come to the conclusion that the ayats about the food of the people of hellfire are inconsistent.

For example: if it is said that John has been on carbohydrate diet for 2 weeks now, whilst on another occasion, if it is said to someone else about John that he has been on the potatoe diet for 2 weeks - there is no inconsistency in the name and nature of both of the statements about John's diet.

What needs to be borne in mind is that the description given may not be comparable with the physical laws (set by Allah) of the world we know.

morbius

4th December 2006, 03:03 PM

First, let me just say that you will have a great future in politics, should you ever decide to go down that path, Logic lover.

Yes, your argument is valid if this Zaqqum tree indeed bares these “dhari”. But I don’t know what Zaqqum tree really is, nor do I know what dhari looks like. I need more clarification on this.

BTW, I too feel that these small maters like what people in Hell eat are trivial and unimportant. I would much rather discuss logical contradictions in Quran (such as why would angels need wings or why would God send us something stupid like a stone), but problem is that one could always say: “Well, that’s God’s will”. The only way that I can prove anything is to hunt for these small contradictions in the text of Quran.

Umm Ahmed

4th December 2006, 04:33 PM

gag order

4th December 2006, 08:17 PM

BTW, I too feel that these small maters like what people in Hell eat are trivial and unimportant.
then why did you bring it up in the first place?

I would much rather discuss logical contradictions in Quran (such as why would angels need wings or why would God send us something stupid like a stone)
qoute the verse you are referring to

morbius

4th December 2006, 11:34 PM

What people eat in Hell is relevant. Our basic instinct is , we know there is good and bad, reward and punishment knowing that we will eat things that makes us vomit out our innards will keep many of us on the straight and narrow . The rewards of paradise are also mentioned for those of us working hard in this life .
I myself very much doubt that there is heaven or hell, but I still try to always do good because I believe that a good deed is a reward by itself. However, I do understand that many people will do good only if afraid of the punishment, so I understand the necessity of hell in the holly books.
But if there really is hell, it’s pretty sure that people there don’t get to eat ice cream. It doesn’t really matter is it pus or thorny fruit, it’s definitely not something nice.

And does anyone here know what dhari and Zaqqum are?

Why do angels need wings ? why did we not have wings ? these are questions just popping out of your mind , we all get them .we dont delve into matters that we dont know about .
Which stone are you talking about ? stones in the brooks ? mountains ?

I don’t know is it smart to begin discussing this. I’m afraid that discussion will go the way it went when I mentioned origin of man. And like I’ve said, nothing can be proven by such discussions, because if something is illogical, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not true.

But alright, I’ll bounce these questions of you and see what do you think about them.

1. Why would angels need wings? Heaviest bird that flies is albatross, it can weight as much as 18 kg and have a wing span of 2.5 meters. Heavier birds than albatross do not fly, they could simply not generate enough lift force with their wings.
So, if angles are man size and approximately the same weight, there is no way they could fly using wings. So, they must be able to fly by divine power of God. But if so, why would they need useless wings?

2. Stone I was mentioning is a stone in Kaaba. Why would God send a stone? Does He feel we do not have enough rocks down here as it is?

Umm Ahmed

5th December 2006, 08:09 AM

The question was hypothetical , I was showing that we cant delve into the unseen our tiny minds cant comprehend all of this and I am glad you agree.

Muslims are reminded constantly that we are supposed to be unified , to go to the Masjid for the five prayers that keeps us in touch with our neighbours, then on a friday we go to the biggest masjid which then unites us with more muslims, then at eids we go to pray in a place where many surrounding villages and towns come , and finally we go to Hajj to unite with thousands and thousands of muslims. All of the muslims all over the world turn and face the kaabah its what unites us .
It is a stone but its the corner stone of the Kaabah .
Your final comment about God , ..* shakes head*.. why do europeans when ever they are in a debate about religion they always head for athiesim thats clutching at air .
Look out your window and at the perfection of how this earth runs, no big bang could make this.
Go to http://www.harunyahya.com/ and read how he has refuted all of this .

Logic lover

5th December 2006, 09:33 AM

From our discussions so far, it appears that you believe in God.

God knows the whole truth, not you or any of His creation -

Quote from post 20:

''Do keep in mind that I do not claim to know the whole truth, only God knows that.''

I think, we should start from this point and stop using our intellect and logic exclusively to understand the truth as much as we need to know (because we would not know the whole truth as it is for Allah only). Therefore, statement like:

''I feel that it’s God who causes positive changes in the gene pool, creating new forms of life'' quote from post 20 - is merely speculative by its nature as an intelligent person may not be confident about something purely one his feelings.

Now, to know the truth as much as we need to know, we need to look at what God has revealed to us - the last of which is the Quran. The Quran is from the literal Words of Allah as the Quran testifies this fact. You have stated in post 28:

''I think that Quran was inspired by God (that’s why I refer to it as holly Quran), but not really dictated by God.'' unquote.

Again, it is not very logical to accept Quran as a divine source and not accepting the nature of this book as the book testifies it (which is from the 'Words of Allah' and not inspired words as you suggest).

So, if we agree on the authenticiy of the Quran, perhaps you may not state the following -

Post 28:

''I just want to show you that Quran indeed has man-made mistakes and therefore some of teachings in it should not be accepted blindly.'' Unquote.

The Muslims believe in the 100 per cent authenticity of the Quran as from the literal Words of Allah and free from any mistakes and contradictions. Your approach to finding the so-called mistakes -

Post 42:
''I would much rather discuss logical contradictions in Quran (such as why would angels need wings or why would God send us something stupid like a stone), but problem is that one could always say: “Well, that’s God’s will”. The only way that I can prove anything is to hunt for these small contradictions in the text of Quran.'' Unquote.

You would like to present yourself as a logical person, yet what you have stated in the above quote is illogical. You would not find any logical contradiction by knowing the reason for any creation or part of the creation. If one is really searching for the necessary truth, one needs to be more objective.

Now in the above quote -

What are you pointing out - 'man-made' mistakes or accepting the truth stated in the Quran and God's plan of creation but rejecting the logic of such creation?

So, please go ahead with what you have agreed so far and use these criteria to find out the truth as we need to know, God willing.

Awaiting your response.

gag order

5th December 2006, 11:01 AM

I would much rather discuss logical contradictions in Quran (such as why would angels need wings or why would God send us something stupid like a stone)
how do you know its a 'contradiction' when you cant even point us to where this 'contradiction' is?

So, if angles are man size and approximately the same weight, there is no way they could fly using wings.
speculation based on your presumptions perhaps influenced by christian or muslim miniatures?

Heavier birds than albatross do not fly, they could simply not generate enough lift force with their wings.
yet these heavier birds still have wings perhaps that is a contradiction in evolution?

if there really is a contradiction in the quran surely you can qoute the verse?

Umm Ahmed

5th December 2006, 11:33 AM

Morbius watch this .

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-8808303938670837698&q=ghamdi

morbius

5th December 2006, 05:42 PM

Muslims are reminded constantly that we are supposed to be unified , to go to the Masjid for the five prayers that keeps us in touch with our neighbours, then on a friday we go to the biggest masjid which then unites us with more muslims, then at eids we go to pray in a place where many surrounding villages and towns come , and finally we go to Hajj to unite with thousands and thousands of muslims. All of the muslims all over the world turn and face the kaabah its what unites us .
I’ve lived under communism, so I can tell you from experience that “unity” can often mean “slavery”. When it comes to religion, I am more in favor of diversity then unity. We should all be unified around ideas such as justice, tolerance and human rights, while everyone should perceive and serve God as he or she sees fit.
Muslims should be very careful not to become mindless cannon fodder that follow orders of their leaders without question. This goes for every other religious group, too.

It is a stone but its the corner stone of the Kaabah .
Alright, but again, why stone? Why not some artifact that clearly shows people that it’s God-made? Why not something like tablets with 10 commandments that He gave to Moses? Why a common stone?
Please, do not take this as an offense, but the most probable scenario about Kaaba stone is this:
Pair of Arabs had a hallucination of the stone falling from the sky while on opium or some funny mushrooms. They brought the stone to Mecca where local superstitious folks built a shrine to it. Later, when Muhamed realized that people of Mecca will not accept Islam if he rejects Kaaba, he decided to incorporate it into his religion.

Look out your window and at the perfection of how this earth runs, no big bang could make this.
There was a big bang (or something similar to it), there is no reasonable doubt about that any more. Big bang theory in it’s today’s form was created by physicist Steven Hawking, but it was clear that Universe was created by expansion the very day that Doppler discovered red-shift in the light of distant stars.

Go to http://www.harunyahya.com/ and read how he has refuted all of this .
Nothing very special here. Though I commend him on his hard work, still this guy’s explanations are outdated and refuted earlier.
For instance, he argues in favor of this verse: His command when He desires a thing is just to say to it, “Be!” and it is. (Qur’an, 36: 82)
To me, this is just plain ridiculous. Anyone with even the smallest knowledge in the field of micro-biology knows how incredibly complex are the structures and processes that go on in every living cell. It takes God millions of years to create a new design (using an old one as a premise) and the fossils clearly prove that. It took Him literally billions of years before He created a creature that He thought He should give higher intelligence to.

morbius

5th December 2006, 05:43 PM

God knows the whole truth, not you or any of His creation
Exactly, I agree with you here 100%.
No child of His knows the whole truth, not even His prophets.

I think, we should start from this point and stop using our intellect and logic exclusively to understand the truth as much as we need to know (because we would not know the whole truth as it is for Allah only). Therefore, statement like:

''I feel that it’s God who causes positive changes in the gene pool, creating new forms of life'' quote from post 20 - is merely speculative by its nature as an intelligent person may not be confident about something purely one his feelings.
Yes, again you are right. You should regard that statement of mine only as an educated guess, not what I feel is absolute truth.

Now, to know the truth as much as we need to know, we need to look at what God has revealed to us - the last of which is the Quran. The Quran is from the literal Words of Allah as the Quran testifies this fact.
Yes, we should look at Quran for guidance for it contains the message of God. However, do remember that God delivered that message through Muhamed and that I believe that Muhamed was adding parts to that message (in the best of intentions, of course). When Muhamed would realize that part that he added was in controversy to what God said, he would strike it out, claiming that verse came from Satan (satanic verses). So we must be careful about messages in Quran as well as other Christian and Jewish holly books, for they were all written by people, not God. Parts of those books that are the same are almost certainly God’s words, but we should be careful about parts that differ.

You would like to present yourself as a logical person, yet what you have stated in the above quote is illogical.
Problem is that English is not my native language and sometimes it is hard for me to find the right words to express myself. Apparently, you should not understand my words too literally, just like the words of Quran.
When I said “logical mistakes in Quran” I meant “parts that contradict our Earthly everyday logic”.

If one is really searching for the necessary truth, one needs to be more objective.
I do try to be as objective and impartial as possible. The point of this thread is to make people realize that Quran doesn’t contain the whole truth. That I believe will be the first step that will send you on the way of finding looking for whole truth. It is in the nature of every human to look for truth, God made us that way with a purpose.
So, I would much rather have you realize some of the “logical” mistakes of the Quran. But if that is impossible, small contradictions in the book will have to do.

Always a pleasure to argue with you, Logic lover.

morbius

5th December 2006, 05:45 PM

how do you know its a 'contradiction' when you cant even point us to where this 'contradiction' is?
Why, do you not know that angels have wings in Quran?

speculation based on your presumptions perhaps influenced by christian or muslim miniatures?
Something like that, yes.

yet these heavier birds still have wings perhaps that is a contradiction in evolution?
Although they can’t use those wings to fly, they still have uses for them. For example, they can be used to help with descending, to look bigger and more dangerous to predators, to help with keeping the balance while running and making sharp turns (which is problem for us bipeds), etc. Some non-flying birds, such as Kiwi, have only rudimentary wings that are almost gone.

gag order

5th December 2006, 07:58 PM

Why, do you not know that angels have wings in Quran?
lets try again:

I would much rather discuss logical contradictions in Quran (such as why would angels need wings
how do you know its a 'contradiction' when you cant even point us to where this 'contradiction' is?

if there really is a contradiction in the quran surely you can qoute the verse you are referring to?

we are waiting....................................

morbius

5th December 2006, 10:33 PM

if there really is a contradiction in the quran surely you can qoute the verse you are referring to?

we are waiting....................................
Beguining of Sura 35 goes:
Praise be to Allah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, who appointeth the angels messengers having wings two,
three and four. He multiplieth in creation what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.

I told you, I will not repeat a mistake of saying something out of Quran if I don’t know exactly where it is. So, instead of trying to catch me make such error again, maybe you could be more productive to this topic and try to explain why do angels have useless wings.

And while you’re at it, explain me why angel Gabriel has 600 wings [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 455] when angels have only 2, 3 or 4.
And how big this angel must have been when 600 wings were attached to his body!

suhail

5th December 2006, 10:56 PM

I dont even understand what is ur problem with angels having wings. What is the problem in that? What are you trying to say?

Suhail

suhail

5th December 2006, 11:02 PM

Another problem with you morbius is that u are trying to understand everything from a mind which considers every hypothesis , theories given by scientists as facts which they are not. Secondly you are considering God to be like you and the fact clearly shows up when u put up these questions. This is your first problem and thus you cant comprehend that when GOD says "Be" it happens. Secondly u are going to on putting up the scientific hypothesis and theories which are not facts for your kind information. So please before we explain anything to you , it is you who have to clear your mind first of all your preconcieved notions.

Suhail

gag order

6th December 2006, 01:55 AM

and i told you at the beginning of this thread to quote the verse you are having trouble with.

So, if angles are man size and approximately the same weight, there is no way they could fly using wings.
2(pairs) 3(pairs) or 4(pairs) more than enough to generate lift dont you think? the answer was in the verse itself. and besides angels are a light based life form and are not necassarily the same size and mass of carbon based life forms such as ourselves.

a contradiction is when one verse seemingly contradicts another on the same topic so wheres the contradiction? or are you just comparing this verse to christian cerubim artwork or even a fairy of european folklore? if so then thats hardly a 'logical contradiction'

And while you’re at it, explain me why angel Gabriel has 600 wings [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Number 455] when angels have only 2, 3 or 4.
He (allah) multiplieth in creation what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things. again the answer was in the verse you quoted.

Umm Ahmed

6th December 2006, 03:43 AM

I’ve lived under communism, so I can tell you from experience that “unity” can often mean “slavery”. When it comes to religion, I am more in favor of diversity then unity. We should all be unified around ideas such as justice, tolerance and human rights, while everyone should perceive and serve God as he or she sees fit.
Muslims should be very careful not to become mindless cannon fodder that follow orders of their leaders without question. This goes for every other religious group, too.

Yes slavery to our Lord and there is nothing sweeter.
Islam is a complete way of life and justice, tolerance and human rights fall under its umbrella .
As muslims we only blindly follow Islam after the faith has been established and prooven. There are muslims who are blind followers of men may Allaah guide them to something better ameen

Alright, but again, why stone? Why not some artifact that clearly shows people that it’s God-made? Why not something like tablets with 10 commandments that He gave to Moses? Why a common stone?
Please, do not take this as an offense, but the most probable scenario about Kaaba stone is this:
Pair of Arabs had a hallucination of the stone falling from the sky while on opium or some funny mushrooms. They brought the stone to Mecca where local superstitious folks built a shrine to it. Later, when Muhamed realized that people of Mecca will not accept Islam if he rejects Kaaba, he decided to incorporate it into his religion..

A stone to use as the corner stone of where millions will postrate towards , I dont see anything wrong in that .
Phrophet Ibraheem he rebuilt the kabaa , Phrophet Mohammed knew the significance of the Kabba hence his keeping himself aloof from what went on in and around the Kaabah before Islam ( see page 81 in the sealed nectar )

And when We made the House a pilgrimage for men and a (place of) security, and: Appoint for yourselves a place of prayer on the standing-place of Abraham. And We enjoined Abraham and Ishmael saying: Purify My House for those who visit (it) and those who abide (in it) for devotion and those who bow down (and) those who prostrate themselves. And when Abraham said: My Lord, make it a secure town and provide its people with fruits, such of them as believe in Allah and the last day. He said: And whoever disbelieves, I will grant him enjoyment for a short while, then I will drive him to the chastisement of the fire; and it is an evil destination. And when Abraham and Ishmael raised the foundations of the House: Our Lord! Accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing: Our Lord! And make us both submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful. Our Lord! And raise up in them a Messenger from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise. (Holy Qur'an 2:125-129)

There was a big bang (or something similar to it), there is no reasonable doubt about that any more. Big bang theory in it’s today’s form was created by physicist Steven Hawking, but it was clear that Universe was created by expansion the very day that Doppler discovered red-shift in the light of distant stars...

Nothing comes from nothing , some big bang created this ? come on! the stars spread out in perfection and the moon and sun each with a set course.

Nothing very special here. Though I commend him on his hard work, still this guy’s explanations are outdated and refuted earlier.
For instance, he argues in favor of this verse: His command when He desires a thing is just to say to it, “Be!” and it is. (Qur’an, 36: 82)
To me, this is just plain ridiculous. Anyone with even the smallest knowledge in the field of micro-biology knows how incredibly complex are the structures and processes that go on in every living cell. It takes God millions of years to create a new design (using an old one as a premise) and the fossils clearly prove that. It took Him literally billions of years before He created a creature that He thought He should give higher intelligence to.

You dont think Jesus's conception was from be and it is ? we cant limit Gods power , again your using your limited mind to understand the unseen .

morbius

6th December 2006, 05:11 PM

I dont even understand what is ur problem with angels having wings. What is the problem in that? What are you trying to say?

Please, do not just troll into this thread. If you want to participate, kindly read all that was posted before. There you will find an answer to these questions.

This is your first problem and thus you cant comprehend that when GOD says "Be" it happens.
Suhail, you are not paying attention. Every cell in your body is full of incredibly complex nano-machines, which shows how carefully God works on His designs.
If new creatures become when He just says “Be!” then why would it take Him billions of years to create more complex life forms? I hope that you are not saying that we kufr forged all those fossils of extinct animals just to fool you.

Secondly u are going to on putting up the scientific hypothesis and theories which are not facts for your kind information.
One of the main reason why theory of evolution is still “theory” and not a “fact” is strong objection from the various religious groups. But if evidence speak strongly in favor of the theory, I see no reason not to at least take it under consideration.
But here is a fact:
Man’s ancestor was a monkey and genetic research clearly proves it (I wrote about this few pages ago). If you think that this is not a fact, then prove it wrong.

Suhail, you really need to be more open-minded if you want to seriously contribute here.

morbius

6th December 2006, 05:12 PM

and besides angels are a light based life form and are not necassarily the same size and mass of carbon based life forms such as ourselves.

You have accepted physical explanation of angels. Very interesting.

So, angels are a light-based life form, not carbon based. This opens a whole world of questions.

What is the power source of angels (or what do they eat, if you prefer)? How can they stand still when light exists only when it is moving (and it’s moving at extremely high speeds, up to 300 000 km per second)? How can they create sound to address people? How do their bodily processes work?
And again, since mass of light is so small that it easily escapes Earth’s gravity, why would angels need wings?

morbius

6th December 2006, 05:13 PM

Yes slavery to our Lord and there is nothing sweeter.
There are two problems with this statement:
1. How do you know that you indeed follow God’s words and not words of those who speak in His name?
2. Why would God need slaves?

A stone to use as the corner stone of where millions will postrate towards , I dont see anything wrong in that .
Phrophet Ibraheem he rebuilt the kabaa , Phrophet Mohammed knew the significance of the Kabba hence his keeping himself aloof from what went on in and around the Kaabah before Islam ( see page 81 in the sealed nectar )
You are missing the point here.
Let me put it this way. Why wouldn’t he send to Earth some divine artifact that couldn’t be made by man. That way, I would just need to take one look at to realize that it is indeed God made and that way everybody in the whole would know that there is God. Instead, we get a common rock.
Then again, it may contain some message in it. Maybe we should chemically analyze it to see if there is something unusual about it. But I’m ready to bet that it’s just a regular peace of granite, found by some Arabs who knows where.

Nothing comes from nothing , some big bang created this ? come on! the stars spread out in perfection and the moon and sun each with a set course.
Do not just quote verses, but think instead.
Universe was created out of singularity long time ago. Proof of this is that Universe still expands, which is a proven fact.
Stars are not spread out in perfect order, they are grouped together in galaxies by gravity. Between galaxies are large areas of empty space (well, not completely empty, but I don’t want to confuse you). Telescopes told us all this.
Course of the Sun, Earth and Moon is also set by the gravity.

we cant limit Gods power , again your using your limited mind to understand the unseen .
This limited intelect we have is a gift from God. I’m pretty sure that God is pleased when we discover more about the nature of the world He created. The more we know, the more we will be able to appreciate His hard work.
Who are we to tell God that He couldn’t have made us from apes, but that He must have made us from clay? Who are we to tell Him that He must have angels with wings because Quran says so? God does things as He wants and it’s up to us to determine His will to the best of our abilities.

suhail

6th December 2006, 05:28 PM

I dont think its worthwhile to discuss with morbius on this topic.

1) There is something called faith morbius and that is what makes the difference. You dont have faith and thus u are not a muslim , I have faith and i do see things differently then you.

2) Do you know what does Islam means?

3) God sent us stone. Why? It was his wish. You think he should have sent something else, well your thoughts are just that your thoughts and it makes no difference what you think he should have sent. He wanted to test the humans that do they obey.

"But I’m ready to bet that it’s just a regular peace of granite, found by some Arabs who knows where."

Arent you getting a bit more insulting with every post you make morbius?

4)

"Do not just quote verses, but think instead.
Universe was created out of singularity long time ago. Proof of this is that Universe still expands, which is a proven fact.
Stars are not spread out in perfect order, they are grouped together in galaxies by gravity. Between galaxies are large areas of empty space (well, not completely empty, but I don’t want to confuse you). Telescopes told us all this.
Course of the Sun, Earth and Moon is also set by the gravity."

I dont even know what to say about this. You act like a complete moron when you think that we muslims dont know anything about science. Please dont act like an idiot.

5)

"This limited intelect we have is a gift from God. I’m pretty sure that God is pleased when we discover more about the nature of the world He created. The more we know, the more we will be able to appreciate His hard work.
Who are we to tell God that He couldn’t have made us from apes, but that He must have made us from clay? Who are we to tell Him that He must have angels with wings because Quran says so? God does things as He wants and it’s up to us to determine His will to the best of our abilities."

This is more ranting and nothing else morbius. You are getting idiotic with every post. You have already decided that you are on the truth. So why debate and waste people time which is precious.

Brothers and sisters it isnt worth it to discuss this because with every new post morbius is getting more and more idiotic.

Suhail
Suhail

Logic lover

6th December 2006, 09:33 PM

What you are coming up with has got no relation with logical contradiction. You are questioning the worthiness of some of the creation of Allah and aspects of our religion. So, you have contradicted your parameter set by yourself.

I am not surprised by your approach, for it is common from those who claim themselves to the Christian. They approach the Muslims with such useless arguments when they fail to question the validity of the Christian theology and even if they question some of it, they still accept most of it. Take yourself for example:

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=2193&page=5

''I am orthodox''

''About Jesus being son of God… You shouldn’t think of son in the biological sense of the word. More like that Jesus was a manifestation of God in human flesh. Many believe that part of God came to this world in the form of Jesus so He could understand us better and see the world through human eyes. ''

''This will probably sound weird to you, but Christian is not allowed to hate anybody. True Christian must not hate any of God’s children, even his enemies.''

''Hindu gods went through cycles of death and rebirth. Jesus was part god part human. He carried in him a piece of God that exists today.''

''It’s hard to tell. I think that part of God that was in Jesus was dormant while Jesus was growing up. You see, God gave warnings to his parents about what child they are about to receive, but when Jesus was born, He was just an ordinary kid, there were no signs of greatness on him. As Jesus was growing God in him was probably seeing what he was seeing, feeling what he was feeling, but Jesus wasn’t aware of Him until He decided to join minds with Jesus''

''I don’t think that Jesus was a God’s son in a biological sense of the word. God doesn’t even have a corporal body, He lives in all things. '' Unquote.

You are prepared to accept the above without asking the reasonableness and logic of such theology, yet you are asking about the validity of the wings of the Angels and the physics of the Black Stone. How sad Moribus! Fear God you believe in (then again, in Christianity - fearing God, is not practiced).

Look at your statements as quoted, think as a sensible person. You will come to know that it is easy to accept the Black Stone as a valid object. However, it is stupid, idiotic and mad-manlike to make the above statements by a person who asking about the wings of the Angels.

Are you a child of 'God', same as Jesus?

Does God live in you? If so, what is the difference between your state and that of Prophet Jesus?

When you say you are Orthodox - do you really conform to their doctrine? If not, why do you go about making such claim?

It would have been better, had you been holding your ground. But, you slide onto all sorts of territory.

morbius

6th December 2006, 10:15 PM

There is something called faith morbius and that is what makes the difference. You dont have faith and thus u are not a muslim , I have faith and i do see things differently then you.

Yes, I perfectly understand concept of faith, but faith can not change reality, Suhail.
For instance, only a few years ago Sheikh Baaz in Saudi Arabia issued a fatwa that any one who said the Earth is round is Kafir. But even if all the Muslims in all the world believed with all their harts that Earth is flat, it would still not make Earth flat. Earth would still be round because God has made it round. Do you understand me now?

God sent us stone. Why? It was his wish. You think he should have sent something else, well your thoughts are just that your thoughts and it makes no difference what you think he should have sent. He wanted to test the humans that do they obey.
If God would appear in your sleep and tell you that from now on He wants you to crawl on your belly instead of walking, what would you do when you wake up? Would you crawl for the rest of your life, or would you wonder if everything was just a dream and consult about it with someone?
Then why do you find it strange that I have second thoughts whether that stone was really sent by God, since it makes so little sense?

I dont even know what to say about this. You act like a complete moron when you think that we muslims dont know anything about science. Please dont act like an idiot.
How would I know if Umm-Ahmed knows these things? It is a duty of every person to fight ignorance as much as he can.

You have already decided that you are on the truth. So why debate and waste people time which is precious.
Ah, but if you look carefully, you will find many places where I have used the words “I don’t know” on this forum. On the other hand, Muslims here never said that they don’t know something when arguing with me. Too many of you feel confidant that you know everything because it says so in the book. I could give you the best books on surgery to read, but it still would not make you a surgeon. Knowledge can not be obtained from books alone.

I am sorry you do not have the necessary patience required for theological discussions, Suhail. I wish you all the best.

morbius

7th December 2006, 01:51 AM

What you are coming up with has got no relation with logical contradiction. You are questioning the worthiness of some of the creation of Allah and aspects of our religion. So, you have contradicted your parameter set by yourself.

I see your problem Logic lover. You are probably used to arguing with specific groups, and when a men comes that doesn’t confirm to all the rules of one specific group, you are little lost.

Maybe I should explain to you my religious background. I was raised as an orthodox Christian, but in my teens as I was learning more about science, I naturally discovered that many biblical stories make no sense. I rejected it all, became atheist, thinking that there is no God. But later, it was what I was finding out through life that made me realize that there indeed is a God. Some of the greatest physicists and biologists of 20th century were believers, their discoveries made them believe.
Although I realized there is God, stories such as Adam and Eve still made no sense and they collided with strong scientific facts, so it’s logical to conclude they must not be true. There are many Christian scholars who still waste their time trying to find ways to justify all the childlish stories in the Bible, but that’s like trying to patch up a damn that that is obviously going to crumble under pressure.
Some time ago I was watching some Christian TV show that was trying to scientifically explain that there really was a great flood and that the story of Noah is true. I never had a better laugh in my life then I had then.

Unfortunately, Islam also has some of those ridiculous claims, many of them it directly incorporated from Christianity. Now, I’m not saying that Bible should be discarded and neither should be Quran. All I’m saying is that neither of them should be accepted as absolute truth. We should carefully meditate on them and find parts that are no longer compatible with facts that we have today. It’s pretty safe to say that both books do not contain only words of God, but also parts that were added by Jesus’ students, or by Muhamed, respectively. Those added parts made sense back in the old days, but today people simply know more then primitive people’s minds in the days of Jesus and Muhamed knew. I think that it’s probably sin to make people believe in something that is not a whole truth without making efforts to fix it.

When you say you are Orthodox - do you really conform to their doctrine? If not, why do you go about making such claim?
Yes, I say that I am orthodox Christian, mostly in respect to my ancestors who were Orthodox. But I also said that I believe in one God and that Muhamed was his prophet, so doesn’t it technically make me Muslim? :)
We all must before anything believe in finding the TRUTH, for truth is what God is.

Look at your statements as quoted, think as a sensible person. You will come to know that it is easy to accept the Black Stone as a valid object.
Notice that I don’t state that God didn’t send the stone. I just said that it is illogical and I don’t know why would God do something illogical.

Does God live in you? If so, what is the difference between your state and that of Prophet Jesus?
I don’t know for sure, but I think it’s possible that God lives in all of us. Jesus was much more in touch with God in Him, that’s for sure. But he never in the whole Bible said for himself that he is “son of God”. He never put himself above other people, which I think is a good example for all of us to follow.

gag order

7th December 2006, 02:34 AM

Umm Ahmed

7th December 2006, 03:21 AM

Unfortunately, Islam also has some of those ridiculous claims, many of them it directly incorporated from Christianity.

Your now making ridiculous claims bring the proof for what your saying here.

Now, I’m not saying that Bible should be discarded and neither should be Quran. All I’m saying is that neither of them should be accepted as absolute truth. We should carefully meditate on them and find parts that are no longer compatible with facts that we have today.

The Bible has been changed to suit mans needs starting with Paul. The Quran has not been changed its been memorized since the time of the phrophet and still being memorised by hundreds of thousands of muslims all over the world .
Quran will always be compatible with todays world , to say otherwise means our lord has left something out and far is he from that . Hqw do you think our scholars have dealt with the issues of test tube babies, and organ transplants.

It’s pretty safe to say that both books do not contain only words of God, but also parts that were added by Jesus’ students, or by Muhamed, respectively. Those added parts made sense back in the old days, but today people simply know more then primitive people’s minds in the days of Jesus and Muhamed knew. I think that it’s probably sin to make people believe in something that is not a whole truth without making efforts to fix it.

The Quran is from Allaah, its his words, the Phrophet gave us his sunnah (traditions) and we follow that as well .
You keep limiting God ,and your not God to say something is a sin.
I can see that your rambling on this, because you want to only cling on to what you have been brought up with , which is a secular veiw on everything . Dont delve into the unseen and then try to explain it away with your logic and science.
Quran explains science !!

Logic lover

7th December 2006, 10:42 AM

Meaning of Quran 68:9 - ''They wish that you should compromise with them, so they (too) would compromise with you.''

Moribus wrote:

''Now, I’m not saying that Bible should be discarded and neither should be Quran. All I’m saying is that neither of them should be accepted as absolute truth. We should carefully meditate on them and find parts that are no longer compatible with facts that we have today.''

What you are asking for, shall not happen. For, the value of the words of our Lord is infinite and our life is given away to please our Lord, though it does not add or take away anything from His Majesty. Compromising in our religion is without a doubt out of the question.

We know that you have doubts about your religion unlike us. You are prepared to use your intelligent brain to use logic in your religion whereas we are going use the tool of submission. This is our way.If you do think that you have got something to offer in terms of intellect, by all means use it against us and see how you come up. This is not just to you but to all forms of human and devil ideologies.

Allah is Great.

morbius

7th December 2006, 06:54 PM

perhaps you thought we muslims did not know anything besides our religion?but to your dismay we corrected you on numerous occasions even in secular knowledge. the topic is 'errors in the holy quran' after exposing your incoherent argument against wings i would like to confront you as to why the stone in the kaaba is an error in the holy quran? you can start by pointing us to the relevant verse.

Well, it seems to me that you are unable to provide me with answers regarding angels, but I’ll drop that subject if you don’t want to pursue it.
Instead, we can talk about stone in Kaaba. Like I said before, I’m not arguing there is an error in Quran regarding the stone, I am arguing that stone was probably not sent by God, for it makes very little logic. As I said before, God would probably send us something better then a stone, something that would clearly say: “This is God’s work.”
For instance, during morning sermon in the Church of Nativity in Jerusalem every Great Saturday (day after the Jesus’ crucifixion) candles in the hands of the gathered believers light up by themselves. They spontaneously burst into flames and their fire doesn’t even burn the human skin if you put your hand in it. I haven’t seen this with my own eyes, but I’ve seen a recording on TV. Once you see something like that even if you are skeptic, it tells you right away that divine miracle has taken place.
And on the other hand, there is Kaaba, with black stone that allegedly came from the sky. If one has a skeptical mind, he would take one look at the rock and say something like: “Yeah, sure, a rock. That certainly makes me believe in God.”

Do you understand what I mean?

Universe was created out of singularity long time ago. Proof of this is that Universe still expands, which is a proven fact. a fact that was revealed by allah in the quran 1400 years ago! may be you prefer to discuss scientific trends in the quran? if so then by all means proceed.
I would love to discuss on this subject. Could you give me more examples of scientific knowledge in Quran, together with quotes?

we shall see if science is really your strenght, since you got off to a bad start by thinking that man evolved from monkeys when you really meant to say man evolved from apes. you dont even know the fundamental principles of the theory of evolutuion yet you would have us believe that somehow you are well grounded in 'science' ???
In my language word “majmun” means both monkey and ape. I sometimes do not make difference between those two words in English.

morbius

7th December 2006, 06:55 PM

Your now making ridiculous claims bring the proof for what your saying here.
I’m saying that Islam has incorporated many of the childish stories from Christianity, which again took them from Judaism, which excepted them from the myths of the ancient Egypt and Babylon. One of those stories is a story about the flood of the world. We can discuss it, if you want.

Quran will always be compatible with todays world , to say otherwise means our lord has left something out and far is he from that . Hqw do you think our scholars have dealt with the issues of test tube babies, and organ transplants.
Quran is already incompatible with today’s world and I think that that it will become more and more obvious as our knowledge of this world grows. Christianity and Judaism in their original form are also incompatible with today’s world, that’s why our people have embraced secularism. That way, religion is only a question of the hart and it doesn’t affect the matters of the state. Secularism brought great advances in science and other fields of human development, so I strongly believe that such solution is for the best.

The Quran is from Allaah, its his words, the Phrophet gave us his sunnah (traditions) and we follow that as well.
And again I ask you, if Muhamed spoke only what God told him, how come he told satanic verses which he later revoked?

I can see that your rambling on this, because you want to only cling on to what you have been brought up with , which is a secular veiw on everything .
I’ve already told you, I went from religion to atheism, and then back to religion. Does that sound like a man who “cling on to what you have been brought up with”?

Quran explains science !!
Please explain what do you mean by this since you don’t accept scientifical explanations I’ve been offering.

morbius

7th December 2006, 06:57 PM

What you are asking for, shall not happen. For, the value of the words of our Lord is infinite and our life is given away to please our Lord, though it does not add or take away anything from His Majesty. Compromising in our religion is without a doubt out of the question.

We know that you have doubts about your religion unlike us. You are prepared to use your intelligent brain to use logic in your religion whereas we are going use the tool of submission. This is our way.If you do think that you have got something to offer in terms of intellect, by all means use it against us and see how you come up. This is not just to you but to all forms of human and devil ideologies.

When prophet Muhamed was dictating Quran, he added many parts to God’s words to make them practical in the real world. Thanks to him, you got a religion that was much more complete and practical then Christianity.
But times have been changing and knowledge of men grew. I think that you should fallow the wisdom of prophet Muhamed and make your religion practical again.

Do not think that I do not respect your discipline or your submission to the God, because I do admire you for it. But you should also keep in mind that there is a very fine line between “discipline” and “stubbornness”.

Islam has become impractical for the modern world. Take for instance matter of Jihad that you have been kind enough to give me explanations about. (these are just my thoughts on the matter, I don’t know if they are true at all)
Muhamed knew that Arabs of those days were very aggressive, so he instated Jihad to use their strength to spread Islam instead of pointlessly killing each other.
But in the modern world wars are no longer fought with swords. Israel has about 40 thermonuclear war heads (they claim much more) which are quite enough to wipe out entire Arab nation.
So, should Arabs insist on Jihad and exterminate themselves that way, or should they somewhat change doctrine of Jihad?

aaa

7th December 2006, 06:57 PM

5. I’ve seen on many places this argument that Quran is so perfect that nothing like it can be created, but I don’t understand what is meant by it. To me, it looks very much like our Christian Bible. In what way is it perfect?

.هذا الكذاب يحاول المقارنة بين كلام الله وأكاذيب كتبهم المزيفة, وهو لا يفهم اللغة العربية لكي يحكم على آيات القرآن أصلا. فشتان ما بين كتاب الله الذي فيه هدى للمتقين والإنجيل المزور الذي فيه ضلال مبين. وشتان ما بين الموحدين والمشركين، و لا مقارنة بين هذا وذاك

http://islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/25/25_63.gif

morbius

7th December 2006, 06:58 PM

And will someone please answer me this:
Why would loving and merciful God want people to be His slaves?

morbius

7th December 2006, 07:00 PM

.هذا الكذاب يحاول المقارنة بين كلام الله وأكاذيب كتبهم المزيفة, وهو لا يفهم اللغة العربية لكي يحكم على آيات القرآن أصلا. فشتان ما بين كتاب الله الذي فيه هدى للمتقين والإنجيل المزور الذي فيه ضلال مبين. وشتان ما بين الموحدين والمشركين، و لا مقارنة بين هذا وذاك

http://islamicity.com/mosque/arabicscript/Ayat/25/25_63.gif
Well, that sure explains everything.:p :rolleyes:

Umm Ahmed

7th December 2006, 09:03 PM

And will someone please answer me this:
Why would loving and merciful God want people to be His slaves?

Slaves in as total submission to him , dont you think that obeying his every command is in our own intrest ? only when we truly obey Allaah and worship him as he asks us, then we obtain the sweetness of faith .

gag order

7th December 2006, 09:20 PM

Well, it seems to me that you are unable to provide me with answers regarding angels, but I’ll drop that subject if you don’t want to pursue it.
Instead, we can talk about stone in Kaaba. Like I said before, I’m not arguing there is an error in Quran regarding the stone,
i have already answered you but seeing that you did not reply i thought may be you were ready to move on so i decided to remind you that this topic is about (supposed) 'errors in the holy quran' therefore if you cant find a reference to the stone in the quran then leave it since it would be beyond the scope of this thread.

I would love to discuss on this subject. Could you give me more examples of scientific knowledge in Quran, together with quotes?
we can discuss it here on the relevant thread.
http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=696&highlight=science (http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=696&highlight=science)

Umm Ahmed

7th December 2006, 09:34 PM

Quran is already incompatible with today’s world and I think that that it will become more and more obvious as our knowledge of this world grows. Christianity and Judaism in their original form are also incompatible with today’s world, that’s why our people have embraced secularism.

Tell me how the Quran in your opinion is not compatible today and please not the sword over nuclear weapons theory ..both are weapons both kill . So please enlighten us .

That way, religion is only a question of the hart and it doesn’t affect the matters of the state. Secularism brought great advances in science and other fields of human development, so I strongly believe that such solution is for the best.
Thats your opinion, as I have stated before islam is a complete way of life , I'd rather follow the one who created me than any "ism's" you want to bring.

And again I ask you, if Muhamed spoke only what God told him, how come he told satanic verses which he later revoked?

Why did he revoke it ? who do you think told the Phrophet to revoke it.

I’ve already told you, I went from religion to atheism, and then back to religion. Does that sound like a man who “cling on to what you have been brought up with”?
Your all over the place, I dont know what you claim to be, you dont hold beliefs that say you went back to religion you speak about Allaah like its a joke .
Please explain what do you mean by this since you don’t accept scientifical explanations I’ve been offering.
Read the Quran with the translation and footnotes .

morbius

8th December 2006, 01:10 AM

Slaves in as total submission to him , dont you think that obeying his every command is in our own intrest ? only when we truly obey Allaah and worship him as he asks us, then we obtain the sweetness of faith .
You are missing the point. The question wasn’t why do you feel that you should serve God, but infact why does God want you to be His slave?

Do you think that God perhaps suffers from vanity or insecurity, so He needs us to tell Him how great and mighty He is all the time?
Or do you think that God is incompetent, so He needs us to do His work for Him?

morbius

8th December 2006, 01:12 AM

Tell me how the Quran in your opinion is not compatible today and please not the sword over nuclear weapons theory ..both are weapons both kill . So please enlighten us .

Instead of pointing out my ideas of clashes between Islamic religious traditions and modern world, how about we take one long look at reality around us?
All Muslim countries are poor. Only exception are the countries that lay on oil, but what will happen in about 30 years when oil runs out? What will remain of UAE when your oil driven economy crumbles to dust?
We prosper, while you stagnate. If your ways were better, wouldn’t God reward you with prosperity?
Install Google Earth (virtual globe made with satellite pictures) and take a look at Sinai peninsula. Even from space, you can crearly see where border between Israel and Egypt lies. On one side it is green garden, on the other side – desert!

Thats your opinion, as I have stated before islam is a complete way of life , I'd rather follow the one who created me than any "ism's" you want to bring.
Of course, only you can chose what beliefs will you follow, but I told you before, in my country there are 300 000 Muslims who are mostly secular and I don’t think they are any less dear to God because of it.

Why did he revoke it ? who do you think told the Phrophet to revoke it.
I think he would revoke them when he would realize he made a mistake. But it’s possible that God told him to revoke them. Either way, it doesn’t change the fact that Mohamed on some occasions put in Quran words that were not from God. If we really want to be suspicious, we could claim that entire Quran was made of satanic verses. Who could say that satan wasn’t fooling Muhamed the whole time?

Your all over the place, I dont know what you claim to be, you dont hold beliefs that say you went back to religion you speak about Allaah like its a joke .
Sense of humor was also a God’s gift to us, so God must want us to use it. Jesus was laughing on at least one place in the Bible, so it’s safe to say that joking and laughter is something pleasant to God. So, if God too has a sense of humor, I’m sure He likes a good joke, even at his own expense.

morbius

8th December 2006, 01:23 AM

i have already answered you but seeing that you did not reply i thought may be you were ready to move on
It seems that last answer regarding angels was mine.
http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showpost.php?p=11849&postcount=60
You probably missed it.

Umm Ahmed

8th December 2006, 06:30 AM

Instead of pointing out my ideas of clashes between Islamic religious traditions and modern world, how about we take one long look at reality around us?
All Muslim countries are poor. Only exception are the countries that lay on oil, but what will happen in about 30 years when oil runs out? What will remain of UAE when your oil driven economy crumbles to dust?
We prosper, while you stagnate. If your ways were better, wouldn’t God reward you with prosperity?
Install Google Earth (virtual globe made with satellite pictures) and take a look at Sinai peninsula. Even from space, you can crearly see where border between Israel and Egypt lies. On one side it is green garden, on the other side – desert!.

I see you opted not to answer my question, never mind ,

Moving on to the above, as for the UAE , its allready diversifing please go to google and do a proper search on the free zones . Again you delve into the unseen and are predicting what will happen in 30 years , we used to think Russia was some grand super power how quickly that image sunk . ( please no debate about russia here )
Rich Arab states bolster up a lot of the western economies ,mainly through the tactics of fear, "you give us this contract we will protect you from Iran"
Why is the west in Iraq and Afghanistan ? do you think its for democracy ? thats a joke its for the money .
Muslim countries are the same as any country in the west they have the resources but are allready stuck in debt from the world banks that they cant find their feet and even if they could , you can be sure the Blair and the Bushes of this world will be in there stifling them or taking them for every penny.
You dont judge who gets Gods mercy your not God !!! I dont know what world your living in, but the people of the west are pretty miserable they kill themselves and drown their thoughts in the befuzzled world of booze and drugs , trying to get away from their miserable lives.
Your just a poor person, and I pity you otherwise I wouldnt waste my time with you all you keep bringing is your opinions nothing else . THINK if you cant bring proof for something then its wrong !!!

Of course, only you can chose what beliefs will you follow, but I told you before, in my country there are 300 000 Muslims who are mostly secular and I don’t think they are any less dear to God because of it.

Secularity takes you away from your religion , going away from the fundementals of your religion earns Allaah's wrath pure and simple . Your "I think" holds no weight when it comes to Allaah's will.

I think he would revoke them when he would realize he made a mistake. But it’s possible that God told him to revoke them. Either way, it doesn’t change the fact that Mohamed on some occasions put in Quran words that were not from God. If we really want to be suspicious, we could claim that entire Quran was made of satanic verses. Who could say that satan wasn’t fooling Muhamed the whole time?.

Give us this fact that your mentioning come on , We are a nation of proofs.
bring us the fact if your truthful.

Sense of humor was also a God’s gift to us, so God must want us to use it. Jesus was laughing on at least one place in the Bible, so it’s safe to say that joking and laughter is something pleasant to God. So, if God too has a sense of humor, I’m sure He likes a good joke, even at his own expense.

We too have a sense of humor and our phrophet did as well as long as it was a truthful joke . A smile is an act of charity in Islam . But a joke at God's expense I wouldn't go there .

Forgot about the green grass . The Jews that live in Israel, most of them are from Europe, they want to make it as close to what they are used to isn't it.

Umm Ahmed

8th December 2006, 06:32 AM

You are missing the point. The question wasn’t why do you feel that you should serve God, but infact why does God want you to be His slave?

Do you think that God perhaps suffers from vanity or insecurity, so He needs us to tell Him how great and mighty He is all the time?
Or do you think that God is incompetent, so He needs us to do His work for Him?

Round and round we go , where it will stop I'll never know .

God does not need us we need him , its in our own intrest to be his slave , when we stand in prayer right hand clasps the other , our head down looking towards the floor , total submission to the lord.

gag order

8th December 2006, 08:33 AM

What is the power source of angels (or what do they eat, if you prefer)? How can they stand still when light exists only when it is moving (and it’s moving at extremely high speeds, up to 300 000 km per second)? How can they create sound to address people? How do their bodily processes work?
And again, since mass of light is so small that it easily escapes Earth’s gravity, why would angels need wings?

widening the debate is not a reply! try again.

to use your own reasoning against you, which you used for birds , perhaps these wings are for maneverability. and besides light can be subject to gravity!

Round and round we go , where it will stop I'll never know
i know what you mean, he has failed miserably to produce to us an error in the quran. but only exposed the errors in his understanding of it. now he is clutching at straws talking about oil and green grass.

morbius

8th December 2006, 01:57 PM

Round and round we go , where it will stop I'll never know .

God does not need us we need him , its in our own intrest to be his slave , when we stand in prayer right hand clasps the other , our head down looking towards the floor , total submission to the lord.
Is my English really that bad that you can’t understand me?
I’m asking why God would want you as a slave and you keep answering that you want to be his slave. I’m asking about God’s motives, and you are answering with your motives. If you don’t know God’s reasons for wanting slaves, just say so. I don’t know God’s reasons for many things.

Also, you mention that God doesn’t need us, but then why did he make us?

morbius

8th December 2006, 01:58 PM

widening the debate is not a reply! try again.
Let’s see, I was giving you all these arguments how physics of angels is all wrong, how they are too heavy to create enough lift with their wings, and then you go and knock all those arguments out of my hands by saying that angels are not made of carbon, but of light instead. Alright then, do explain all the implication of such an answer.

So far, you’ve only menaged to come up with this:
well to use your own reasoning against you, which you used for birds , perhaps these wings are for maneverability.
But how could a wing of light be used to steer, since steering must include some sort of interaction with surroundings? Besides, light travels in a straight line through homogenous matter (such as air) so how would angels steer, since they are made of light?

and besides light can be subject to gravity!
Light has mass and therefore is subject to gravity. However, Earth’s puny gravity presents no challenge for light. It takes huge gravity of black holes to stop light from escaping.

i know what you mean, he has failed miserably to produce to us an error in the quran. but only exposed the errors in his understanding of it. now he is clutching at straws talking about oil and green grass.
We can always go back to hunting for places where Quran says two different things about the same event or something. But these places where Quran clashes with the real world are much more interesting and much more important, don’t you think?

aburasheed

8th December 2006, 02:19 PM

And will someone please answer me this:
Why would loving and merciful God want people to be His slaves?

Morbius, you can ask questions unrelated to "Errors in the Holy Quran" here (http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?p=12017#post12017)

Thank you

Umm Ahmed

8th December 2006, 05:14 PM

Is my English really that bad that you can’t understand me?
I’m asking why God would want you as a slave and you keep answering that you want to be his slave. I’m asking about God’s motives, and you are answering with your motives. If you don’t know God’s reasons for wanting slaves, just say so. I don’t know God’s reasons for many things.

Also, you mention that God doesn’t need us, but then why did he make us?

Of course I dont know Gods reasons for every single thing!!! but you keep pushing me to look into somewhere I dont wish to go, So I try to explain things an other way to soften your heart !!!!

God says in the Quran he created us to worship him . For me thats it . You want logic that your brain can get round .
I passed that stage a long time ago, faith entered my heart after knowing that the Quran is the final message to mankind, and that Phrophet Mohammed is his messenger .
Since you have not brought anything to proove other wise , you now need to embrace Islam and stop being so stubborn.

gag order

8th December 2006, 09:37 PM

We can always go back to hunting for places where Quran says two different things about the same event or something.
actually you left that becos your arguments were defeated when you couldnt show us any contradictions. but you are welcome to try.

But these places where Quran clashes with the real world are much more interesting and much more important, don’t you think?
i can see why its interesting to you since you are free to make wild assumptions and speculate to your hearts content!

Besides, light travels in a straight line through homogenous matter
obviously you havent heard of refraction but just pretend to know physics.

since mass of light is so small that it easily escapes Earth’s gravity
not entirely true, and after i corrected you, you said
Light has mass and therefore is subject to gravity.

morbius

8th December 2006, 11:57 PM

Of course I dont know Gods reasons for every single thing!!! but you keep pushing me to look into somewhere I dont wish to go, So I try to explain things an other way to soften your heart !!!!

Now you truly understand my intentions. Like I told you before, I’m not here to convert you, I’m here simply to make you think. When I find something in the holly books that I don’t understand, that creates a doubt in my mind. I then try to find explanation for that doubt, looking both into scientific and religious books.
You instead of looking for answer just avoid getting into doubt. You avoid asking or answering questions that might lead you to doubt.

God says in the Quran he created us to worship him .
But such answer implies that God is vane or insecure and we both know in our harts that He can not be like that. So, this answer is either wrong or I’m not interpreting it correctly. Can someone help me with this?

I passed that stage a long time ago, faith entered my heart after knowing that the Quran is the final message to mankind, and that Phrophet Mohammed is his messenger .
Do not think that I don’t understand or don’t respect that.

Since you have not brought anything to proove other wise , you now need to embrace Islam and stop being so stubborn.
Sorry, but I could never accept religion that doesn’t allow me to think freely or asks me to be a slave.
And it’s now clear to me that I could give you million proofs that I am right, you would simply sweep them out of your mind, not allowing them to create a doubt. *Sigh* Why do I bother?

Umm Ahmed

9th December 2006, 06:22 AM

Now you truly understand my intentions. Like I told you before, I’m not here to convert you, I’m here simply to make you think. When I find something in the holly books that I don’t understand, that creates a doubt in my mind. I then try to find explanation for that doubt, looking both into scientific and religious books.
You instead of looking for answer just avoid getting into doubt. You avoid asking or answering questions that might lead you to doubt.?

There are answers in the Quran for what I need to know , but your going into matters that no man can really answer they can conjecture as to what happens ect , but its not the truth.
I prefer to stick with what God and his phrophets have explained , rather than any man bringing his opinions.

But such answer implies that God is vane or insecure and we both know in our harts that He can not be like that. So, this answer is either wrong or I’m not interpreting it correctly. Can someone help me with this?

Allaah has many attributes, vain and insecure is not on the list , those are weakness's Allah has no weakness.
Worship benefits us we are the ones who need it , after prayer the feeling you get is something unique.
I read somewhere that they likened the prayer to bathing oneself in a stream five times a day imagine how clean you would be doing that five times everyday. Allaah has made this prayer obligatory on us for our own benefit .

Sorry, but I could never accept religion that doesn’t allow me to think freely or asks me to be a slave.
And it’s now clear to me that I could give you million proofs that I am right, you would simply sweep them out of your mind, not allowing them to create a doubt. *Sigh* Why do I bother?

I am not free yes why do you think that is ? When I decide to go lets say outside (free will) I then think I have to cover properly , I have to lower my gaze , I am aware of Allaah. I learned this from Quran and the Sunna (phrophetic traditions)

When I cook I make sure the meat is halal, that it is clean , that the kitchen is clean ect all of these things benefit me . Again I learned this from Quran and the Sunna (phrophetic traditions)
You want to be a slave to whom? yourself ? ourselfs will go fornicate outside of marriage get stds aids unwed mothers , children without fathers , abortion , does any of that benefit you ?

Something goes wrong with your PC . do you say "I will fix it I know all about it ?" no you go to a technician , so to live my life properlly who should I follow ? my self or the one who created me ?

*Sigh* Why do I bother?

You havent bothered thats the problem , give us one proof then we can go from there .

Tauheed

9th December 2006, 11:45 AM

And if you (Arab pagans, Jews, and Christians) are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down (i.e. the Quran) to Our slave (Muhammad Peace be upon him), then produce a Soorah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses (supporters and helpers) besides Allah, if you are truthful. Al-Baqara 2:23

Many wars have been fought against the Muslims throughout history and this is continuing today. Why is there need to fight us, all the non-Muslims need to do is produce a chapter like the Qur’an and you have won. The Muslims will be no more.

But this will not happen as Allah all mighty says: ‘Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Quran, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another." Al-Isra 17:88

Meet the challenge if you feel that Islam is a false religion Morbius and you can get all the help you want, many have tried and failed Alhumdu’lilla.

gag order

9th December 2006, 07:50 PM

Sorry, but I could never accept religion that doesn’t allow me to think freely
or allow your mind to wander into unfimiliar territory?

When I find something in the holly books that I don’t understand, that creates a doubt in my mind.
they are your doubts and your conjecture, not ours. you cant even put together a coherent argument let alone find an 'error', heres an example of your inconsistency:

in reply to 'God says in the Quran he created us to worship him '

you said:

But such answer implies that God is vane or insecure and we both know in our harts that He can not be like that.
yet you have no problems accepting that your man-god died on the cross when he didnt want to die and according to christiandom, your man-god allegedly said 'worship me'

when it is said that we are the slaves of allah perhaps it will help you understand if we use a more appropriate word such us 'servant'. we serve His purpose, we obey his injunctions therefore we are servants. the word slave is used synonymously similar to the way a muslim would use the word 'god' and 'allah' to refer to the same bieng.

morbius

10th December 2006, 01:15 AM

I dont know what world your living in, but the people of the west are pretty miserable they kill themselves and drown their thoughts in the befuzzled world of booze and drugs , trying to get away from their miserable lives.
Now, how did I miss this post of yours? It was right on top of a last page.

Actually, people around me are pretty happy. I just came back from a night out on the town (thank God for Saturday nights) and I feel super. We listened to music, had a few beers, laughed, did all the things that make life great. I don’t really know why do you keep saying that we’re all miserable, womanizers, drug addicts and alcoholics. I mean, I could understand that coming from some Arab who never saw west world, but you know better, yet you push stereotypes.
If path of Islam makes you happy, that’s all right by me. But to be honest, you seem very bitter and unhappy to me.

Secularity takes you away from your religion
Nope. It just makes religion personal thing, as it should be.
History has proven on many occasions that priests should not be allowed to rule, they are very bad at it.

Give us this fact that your mentioning come on , We are a nation of proofs.
bring us the fact if your truthful.
What’s the use of bringing evidence if your mind is not open to accept it (and you already confirmed that it isn’t, for you don’t let yourself doubt)? So far, all the problematic issues with Quran and Islam I’ve brought up have either been ignored or answered with really poor answers that make sense only to you.
I ask wht tree of Zaqum is and I get no reply.
I ask why is there wine in heaven and I get answer that it is some special wine.
List goes on…

Forgot about the green grass . The Jews that live in Israel, most of them are from Europe, they want to make it as close to what they are used to isn't it.
That was an example of how more secular societies are more industrious and scientific.
Contrary to non-theistic religions of the Orient, our western monotheistic religions were always very suspicious towards the science, always fearing that it will come up with answers contrary to their holly books, as it usually did.
Catholic Church burned Giordano Bruno, scientist that claimed that Earth revolves around the Sun, and not the other way around. It took Catholic Church 500 years to acknowledge that the world is round. But it took them only about 25 years to acknowledge the Big Bang. Well, it seems that even rigid Catholicism is learning and who would think that’s possible?

You want to be a slave to whom? yourself ? ourselfs will go fornicate outside of marriage get stds aids unwed mothers , children without fathers , abortion , does any of that benefit you ?
I do not want to be slave at all. I really can not understand people with such slave mentalities.
It’s really simple: slavery is wrong. And why would a just and merciful God want something that’s wrong?
One more question to enter your mind, and then be swept away before its truth is allowed to create doubt in you.