The Hadith of The Young Man (Imam Ahmad’s grading on the hadith)

[aMuslimForLife]

The hadith which likens Allah to a Man (Imam Ahmad’s grading on the hadith)[/b]

ISNAD: Hammad b. Salaama < Qatada < 'Ikrimah < IBN 'ABBAS.

The Messenger of God said: "I saw my Lord under the form of a young man beardless (amrad) with curly hair (ga'd) and clothed in a green costume."

My question: Did Imam Ahmad consider this narration to be authentic?

The reason I ask is because, according to Wesley Williams from the Nation of Islam who is at the University of Michigan working on his PHD in Islamic Studies, says that while Imam Ahmad condemned the narration of Umm Tufayl. Wesley Willaims states, “Ibn Hanbal not only acknowledged the soundness of this report (1) he made its belief obligatory. (Wesley William cites as proof Ibn Hanbali Aqidah V [Kitab Sunna])”

The full article by Wesley Williams can be found at

http://www.theblackgod.com/IJMESNew.pdf

Also, another question concerning the narration by Umm Tufayl. Wesley Williams states concerning this narration that Imam Ahmad condemned the isnad (chain of transmission) and not the matn (text). Can it be assumed that Imam Ahmad condemnation of the isnad, does not necessarily mean, condemnation of the matn (text).

Al Bayhaqi, considered the both hadiths to be fabricated, Wesley William says, Al Bayhaqi condemned the narration because he was an Ashari and wasn’t be honest regarding isnad or the matn because it contradicted the beliefs of the Asharis.

So what is the official Hanbali position on these hadiths and did Imam Ahmad consider either one of them to be authentic????

(1) (referring to the report by Ibn Abbas cited above)

[SZaman]

The hadith which likens Allah to a Man (Imam Ahmad’s grading on the hadith)[/b]

ISNAD: Hammad b. Salaama < Qatada < 'Ikrimah < IBN 'ABBAS.

The Messenger of God said: "I saw my Lord under the form of a young man beardless (amrad) with curly hair (ga'd) and clothed in a green costume."

My question: Did Imam Ahmad consider this narration to be authentic?

The reason I ask is because, according to Wesley Williams from the Nation of Islam who is at the University of Michigan working on his PHD in Islamic Studies, says that while Imam Ahmad condemned the narration of Umm Tufayl. Wesley Willaims states, “Ibn Hanbal not only acknowledged the soundness of this report he made its belief obligatory. (Wesley William cites as proof Ibn Hanbali Aqidah V [Kitab Sunna])”

The full article by Wesley Williams can be found at

http://www.theblackgod.com/IJMESNew.pdf

Also, another question concerning the narration by Umm Tufayl. Wesley Williams states concerning this narration that Imam Ahmad condemned the isnad (chain of transmission) and not the matn (text). Can it be assumed that Imam Ahmad condemnation of the isnad, does not necessarily mean, condemnation of the matn (text).

Al Bayhaqi, considered the both hadiths to be fabricated, Wesley William says, Al Bayhaqi condemned the narration because he was an Ashari and wasn’t be honest regarding isnad or the matn because it contradicted the beliefs of the Asharis.

So what is the official Hanbali position on these hadiths and did Imam Ahmad consider either one of them to be authentic????

as-salamu `alaykum,

I have Kitab as-Sunnah and I skimmed through the link you gave. I found that either what Wesley says is in Kitab as-Sunnah is not actually there or there is some serious misrepresentation and/or manipulation of what is there. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to detail this all right now, so hopefully brother Abuz-Zubayr will tackle that, insha' Allah. I suspect the question was for him anyways. One example:

He cites a fabricated report about the ru'ya of Allah as a Shab (young man) specifically which has in its defective isnad "from Qatada from `Ikrima from Ibn `Abbas". This is just a PIECE of the defective isnad. Then he quotes Imam Ahmad speaking of the ru'ya of Allah on the Day of Judgement in general with the same chain of transmission minus the defect! The Hadith of the Amrad/Ja`d vision of Allah is nowhere to be found in Kitab as-Sunnah. It actually says the Antichrist is Aj`ad! Scary!

Imam Ahmad (radi Allahu `anhu) was not a mujassim, nor did he make any type of tajsim obligatory in belief. I'm not sure how safe it is to read such material as the link you posted even if its for the sake of learning about the ways of the innovators in order to refute them, w-Allahu A`lam.

[danish al hyderabadee]

I belief I read a discussion of this in George Makdisi's Ibn Aqil.....Allahu 'Alim

[AbuAhmad]

Akhee why are you reading material from Nation of Unbelievers? Let alone giving their readings a second thought?

[aMuslimForLife]

Akhee why are you reading material from Nation of Unbelievers? Let alone giving their readings a second thought?

Well a good friend of mine use to be Sunni, and converted to The Nation of Islam because of Mr. Wesley Williams writings. Why anyone would be convinced by his writings is beyond me, because he doesn't even faithfully follow the doctrine of Nation of Islam and he is trying to tell us Sunnis we are wrong. Anyway I had a long conversation with him concerning this issue. So I am trying to find answers to these questions, in hopes that it will help him.

And to be honest, I don't care if he would become Salafi, as along as he returns back to Islam. Because if you die on kufr than there is no hope for you, especially if you left Islam.

I hope that makes.

[Umm Ahmed]

Go back with your friend to the basics of Islam . What is unconvincing to you can mislead others , you try your best with him.

[Abuz Zubair]

Ok, I read the section on hadith al-shab from the link and here are my comments:

1) The hadeeth about Allah being a ‘young, beardless man’ is not authentic according to Imam Ahmad, and the ‘illa given by the Imam was the jahala of two narrators. Williams claims that the ruling was merely on the chain and not the text because he affirmed the text. Did he affirm the text stating Allah is a young man and beardless? This is what we’ll discuss in the following points.

2) Williams claims that Imam Ahmad not only acknowledged the authenticity of this report, but actually obliged one to believe in it in his Usul al-Sunnah. This assumption is wrong because in Usul al-Sunnah he refers to three chains that we must believe in, one of them mentioned in his Musnad (Qatada -> ‘Ikrima -> Ibn ‘Abbas), and another one in al-Tirmidhi, and neither of these narrations mentioning anything about Allah being a young beardless man. All they affirm is that the Prophet saw Allah. Another interesting thing to note is that Imam Ahmad never stated that the Prophet saw Allah with his eyes. In fact, there are other narrations from Imam Ahmad that the Prophet only saw Allah with his heart.

3) Williams at least acknowledges that the hadeeth is in abridged form, and he correctly references the abridged form to musnad and k. al-sunnah of ‘Abdullah. However, the abridged form only contains the wording: I saw my Lord; and it does not mentioning anything about Allah being ja’d amrad, which he claims, Ahmad obliged us to believe in! He even mentions Ibn Kathir’s opinion that the hadeeth is an abridgement of the Prophet’s dream, and it has nothing to do with the hadeeth of ja’d amrad.

4) Williams then mentions that a full report has been mentioned by al-Tabarani which mentions Allah has a young man. However, the sanad looks extremely spurious as it seems to have been terribly mixed up, and furthermore, ‘Abdullah’s own chains as mentioned in his K. Sunnah are quite small and unlike the chain mentioned by al-Tabari, neither does ‘Abdullah – ever – cite ja’d amrad in any of the reports he cites. The mistake here seems to be from al-Tabarani.

5) As for al-Marrudhi asking Imam Ahmad about such ahadeeth, then yes it is reported in Tabaqat but with a chain containing narrators I do not know. Secondly, even though the questioner (al-Marrudhi) mentions shaab amrad ja’d, Imam Ahmad in reply does not say anything more than : ‘I saw my Lord’.

6) The last narration he cites from Tabaqat via ‘Abd al-Samad b. Yahya in which Shadhan enquires Imam Ahmad whether or not he should report such narrations; then this incident has been mentioned twice in Tabaqat, once without the wording ja’d amrad, as well as with the wording ja’d amrad, whereas the incident only happened once, indicating that the second mention of the same incident with the wording ja’d amrad is dubious.

7) Williams then mentions Ibn ‘Aqil’s apparent agreement that Imam Ahmad deemed such reports as authentic, but that is not true, for i) Ibn ‘Aqil himself was not all clued up about reports, ii) He has no proof that Imam Ahmad specifically allowed such narrations to be narrated, and iii) he is only making his contention for the sake of argument, that even if Imam Ahmad said: report such narrations, he meant one may report it, while interpreting it allegorically, a doctrine Ibn ‘Aqil supported due to his early Mu’tazilism.

The conclusion of all this is:

1) Imam Ahmad not once does he mention the hadeeth of ja’d amrad in any of his works. The only narration he mentions is ‘I saw my Lord’, and ends there.

2) The report saying ‘I saw my Lord’ is an abridgement of another report where the Prophet saw Allah in His dream in the best of forms (ahsan sura) and this does not mention anything about ja’d amrad. This is what Imam Ahmad obliges us to believe in.

3) Similarly, his son never reported the wording ja’d amrad in any of his writings, and like his father, he did not go beyond: I saw my Lord.

Lastly, we already know that Imam Ahmad declared the hadeeth to be munkar, and the statement is applicable to the narrators as well as the text, which is why Imam Ahmad, not once, narrates this text in any of his works.

Wallahu Alam

[aMuslimForLife]

Jazakullah Khairan Ya Abuz Zubair.

[Abuz Zubair]

5) As for al-Marrudhi asking Imam Ahmad about such ahadeeth, then yes it is reported in Tabaqat but with a chain containing narrators I do not know. Secondly, even though the questioner (al-Marrudhi) mentions shaab amrad ja’d, Imam Ahmad in reply does not say anything more than : ‘I saw my Lord’.
I asked one of my teachers today about the hadeeth of young man, and he astonished me with his response.

He said that the Prophet only saw a dream in which He saw Allah as a young beardless man. And since it was only a dream, that which is seen in a dream does not resemble the reality. This is why vast majority of the scholars hold that it is possible for one to see Allah in a dream, yet, the image he sees, does not resemble Allah.

Amazing response, as I never thought along those lines!

Not to mention that Sufi works are crammed full of boastful narrations about Allah's vision in one's dreams!

[stani]

as far as i am aware, and we covered this in a circle not long ago, it is possible to see ALLAH in a dream and the form of ALLAH will vary to the level of ones emaan, as the rasool saw said 'i saw my lord in the best of forms' (my wording) as he had the highest level of emaan he saw ALLAH in the best of forms.

however this seeing of ALLAH is not of ALLAH himself but it is the veil of ALLAH and this proven by Quran and Sunnah as we know no one will see or has seen ALLAH in this phase of life.

and ALLAH knows best

[AbuAhmad]

http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=14096&ln=eng

[aMuslimForLife]

I asked one of my teachers today about the hadeeth of young man, and he astonished me with his response.

He said that the Prophet only saw a dream in which He saw Allah as a young beardless man. And since it was only a dream, that which is seen in a dream does not resemble the reality. This is why vast majority of the scholars hold that it is possible for one to see Allah in a dream, yet, the image he sees, does not resemble Allah.

Amazing response, as I never thought along those lines!

Not to mention that Sufi works are crammed full of boastful narrations about Allah's vision in one's dreams!


So here is the next question;

If we assume the hadith is acceptable, I personally do not.

Wesley Williams says, "'Although it is probable that the imam understood at least one of two reported apparance as a vision, this is no way diminishes the force of the theophany or sighting. When asked about the visions, the imam replied, "yes he asw Him in reality (raahu haqq) for the visions of the prophets are real." The Imam even claimed to have seen God during his sleep."

Wesley provides his references in the article itself.

How do you reply to that the Prophet's dreams are real???

[Abdullah al-Shishani]

there are many instances when the prophet (saw) interpreted his dreams. If by real we would mean that the dreams are exactly the same as reality, he wouldn't interpret them, imho.

[Abuz Zubair]

Precise and concise response by brother al-Shishani, there!

Yusuf saw the his parents and brothers prostrating to him, but he only saw them as stars, the moon and the sun.

The person's vision of Allah, according to some, is an accordance with the type of faith they have in Him. The better the faith, the better the vision. However, what one sees in the vision is a representative of Allah, and not Allah Himself.

Is the dream true? Of course it is. But it is just that, a dream.

[Abu_Abdallah]

Precise and concise response by brother al-Shishani, there!

Yusuf saw the his parents and brothers prostrating to him, but he only saw them as stars, the moon and the sun.

The person's vision of Allah, according to some, is an accordance with the type of faith they have in Him. The better the faith, the better the vision. However, what one sees in the vision is a representative of Allah, and not Allah Himself.

Is the dream true? Of course it is. But it is just that, a dream.

That may brings us to what Ibn Taymiyyah always emphasized against the Falasifah and Ahl al-Kalam: mental imaginations, thoughts etc. are not external realities, as many philosophers thought. Only things that exist independant and within the existence are real things. What is in our mind is just a mental thing, not the thing itself or exactly as it is. All things that are abstracts of our mind are nor real matters, but just matters that explain or suppose to represent what is real. He continually stresses that, as many other scholars (incl. some philosophers of old) mentioned that. So dreams and other mental things can not be identified what one see or knows that exist in the real world.

[ALAMIN]

Salaam

Brother Abu Zubayr did you recieve my e-mail? regarding a dialogue on the hadith al-shabb, and Imam Ahmad? Inshallah let me know!

salaam
al-amin

[Abuz Zubair]

JK brother Sharif Abu Ja'far for highlight this. This has been one of the pitfalls of the philosophers and their followers from the Mu'tazila and the Ash'aris, that they consider concepts as external realities, such that they describe Allah with merely an absolute existence devoid of any qualities.

al-Amin, no I didn't receive any email. You can always pm me if you like.

[ALAMIN]

ASA Abuz Zubair

I sent you another message via private message if you do not get this one then I will post it in public forum. inshallah you will get it.

JZK