Moving to the UK - please i need ur advice!!!

[new_muslim]

Assalamu alaeikum to my brothers and sisters on this forum!!

I'm thinking of moving back to the UK - i studied there previously..however this time around it's a bit different as I'm a practising muslim now, plus I have a husband and kids...

we are considering either 2 of the cities- London or Birmingham rite now as we need sth with lots of islamic activities and opportunities to elarn for us and the children- could anyone recommend any muslim areas in those cities that have islamic centres/masaajid/muslim schools/places to go listen to lectures or halqas...

we are totally clueless so pls any sincere recommendations will be welcome..

also, i'd love to hear from sisters in those cities and where to meet /get to know practising sisters please!

Jazakallahu khairun!
Assalamu alaeikum

[sark]

Wa alaykum as salam sis!

Mashallah you're brave moving back to UK :)...

OK London, Mashalah very vibrant place to live, although there can be some parts which really tests your emaan. Depending on what you want there are different parts of London to suit peoples tastes, culture and interests. East London is populated by asians but somalians are coming up fast to take over the place! There yiu can find East London Mosque (or London Muslim Centre) which has many circles, talks and courses based there. West London has Al-Fitrah, dawah organisation. South London has Al-Muntada. North London has various active Masjids, however its not as active as the rest of London. Centre London is just manic, but you have great oppotunities to find all different cultures and Islamic studies are never to far with Regents Park Masjid, WAMY, UKIM, Utrujj, and many more.

Mashallah we are blessed with many wounderful resident sheikhs and students of knowledge.

There are many Muslim schools scatered all over, so depending if you have a need for that this may need to be looked into.

Birmingham has a brilliant feel to it, I dont know much about the names of places (only been a couple of times, and my memory is really bad!) But Birmingham has a huge asian population, and is greatly Islamicly active. When I went it felt like I was in a Muslim village. But again like everywhere else there is some parts which are quite Muslim unfriendly!

Thats a glimse, theres so much more though, Im sure others can give you much better info.

Where you moving back from?

[AbuAhmad]

What place in the UK is the least racist?

[new_muslim]

I studied in the UK previously - stayed in Manchester for about 4 years...

btw, i'm not asian, i'm a white revert so race etc doesn't matter to me at all, I just want to be in an area with lots of other practising muslims/islamic activities and centres insha Allah..

Jazakallahu khairun for your replies.

[abu_ibrahim]

east london is best place for Muslims to live.

Walthamstow, Leyton, Ilford...etc.

[Abu Ilyas]

As Salaamualaikum,

Islamically there is far more going on in London than anywhere else, it will not be very difficult to find circles and activities in London. I would recommend the activities around two Masjids in particular, namely Al Muntada Al Islami in Parsons Green which is kind of South of Central London and Masjid At Tawheed which is in Leyton, East London.

East London is significantly cheaper and has a high proportion of
Muslims.

Birmingham has a high proportion of Muslims also, there is a lot going on in terms of Islamic activities but not compared to London. There is more of a community feel to Birmingham, however it might also be less open to outsiders than London. One advantage of Birmingham is that is significantly cheaper to live in than London.

If I was in your shoes I would prob. choose London but your priorities might be different. Another factor to consider would be career prospects, almost always better job prospects in London.

If you know people in a particular city should influence your decision.

I hope you dont mind me mentioning that many Muslims are contemplating leaving the UK at the moment due to problems Muslims have been facing here and it would be wise to consult these people before you make the move.

Allah Knows Best

[sark]

assalamu alyakum

Although you are not asian sis, being overtly Muslim doesnt do wounders for you, the raise of Islamophobia is not just in the white sububs of England, its right on our doorsteps. Although we may live in cosy asian/muslim areas, we still need to travel somewhat, and even if we didnt we would eventually be affected by the islamaphobia thats sweeping the UK very much so due to the goverment and their policy.

Yes there are many people moving out of the UK. But most of us arnt, this is because the need for dawah is great and the oppotunites are never too far.

Which place is the least racist? Hmmm I dont know how to answer that question, it depends how sensitive you are to these things, like the way people have experienced islamaphobia in different ways so too can people have different experiences of rasism. My father for instance has faced alot of rasim from fellow Muslims.

But being a revert sis then I suggest that some parts of east london, or parts which have a high density of a particular culture or ethnic background would not be for you, this is because alot of east london or such areas are very cultural and they 'stick to their own kind', its unfortunate but true.

The best way for you to feel whre is best you for is to come see for yourself, home is what you make it, and everyone has their preferences. Almost everywhere you go there will be sisters nereby, you just have to find em!

[new_muslim]

Assalamu alaikum whwb and jazakallahu khairun to everyone for their posts.

I didn't actually even mention racism towards muslims or islamophobia, unfortunately that's widespread in every country within the EU,and beyond, we all are aware of it or even ve experienced it first hand ...

I do not intend to settle in the UK, I'm just going back so I can finish my studies there (1,5 years to go insha Allah!),the real destination would be somewhere in the Middle East - although we all know it's far from the Islamic state that we all wanna be a part of insha Allah.

As long as we continue living within the Kuffar and their Kufr, we are gonna feel their enmity towards us (which they no longer hide!), plus many of us will start becoming more n more like them - due to our weak imaan...may Allah protect us from it! that's the reason why Allah made Hijrah compulsory on us in certain cases and living anywhere near the Kuffar is highly discouraged in our deen..

insha Allah,i hope Allah will guide us all to what's best for us - in this world and in the hereafter.Ameen.

[Umm Ammar]

Salam alaikum Sister,

I am a white revert, too. I have been living in London for almost 5 years and I would recommend the Walthamstow, Leyton, Leytonstone area. They are locayed in the London Borough of Waltahm Forest. There are many halaqas, mosques, halal shops, etc. here and also many helpful sisters and brothers. For children there are muslim nurseries, schools, playgroups and home education as well as many facilities for muslim women e.g. swimming, gym, hairdresser, etc. A lot going on, consider coming here if you like. Any question, please ask me.

Umm Ammar

[Abuz Zubair]

Sorry everyone, but I had a question about East Londoners... I was contemplating (only) of moving to E London, but I heard from many that the Muslims in the area are very narrow-minded and cultural. Is this true?

[new_muslim]

Assalamu alaikum wh wb & jazakallahu khairun for all your replies..

insha Allah,i think i wanna try it out in E London next year and see how it goes...- i'll be leaving here in April (insha Allah) - if anyone can suggest ways of finding a place to rent there (preferably private/or whatever the cheaper option is! ;) -please do (as it'll be much easier moving if I know i've got something lined up already - i've got 2 small kids with me and it'll be difficult searching for rentals once i'm there).

Once again,a big Jazakallahu khairun to all of you.

Whoever can recommend halqas/islamic nurseries & schools /activities for sisters and kids in East London(or elsewhere in London)-please do!

Assalamu alaikum wh wb!

[Umm]

Sorry everyone, but I had a question about East Londoners... I was contemplating (only) of moving to E London, but I heard from many that the Muslims in the area are very narrow-minded and cultural. Is this true?

Not more so than anywhere else.

[Abuz Zubair]

In fact, I have heard more so than anywhere else. To the extent that some sisters would not even consider brothers from East London. I have personally come across some East Londoners with very cultural paki mentality. But I don't know if it is so widespread in E. London as some people make it out to be.

[Umm]

I can say, to be fair to the brothers of East London, that they have a quality which doesn't go down well with the West/North London sisters (not sure about South): they wear the trousers.

So many sisters I have heard of, especially from W.London, want a husband who does the housework, a large chunk of baby care, has a good salary and even then, the wives still moan. The feeling is mutual, as most brothers down here would see a W.London sister as too much headache. This is why so many of them marry late. 101 requirements, and how many of them are Islamically justified as reasons to say no to a brother?

"He has to be able to speak good Urdu to do da'wah to my parents"
"I need to visit my family every week"


Cultural as in mixing paki cultural practices with Islaam, I can't say that I have seen that here any more than other parts of London with the jaahil Muslims. With the brothers, you could say cultural in the sense that they live with inlaws usually, and yes, they wouldn't split housework or visiting both sides of the families 50/50 etc. A lot of the sisters here have marital problems, and I would say 80% come from living with inlaws.

I have lived in East London for over a decade. I would equate it to how a sister described Birmingham. Lots of Muslims everywhere, but only patches of true brotherhood. Everyone gets on with their own lives.

In response to the sister, East London can only be appreciated by someone living somewhere that there are no Islamic circles/schools/halal shops/. There are study circles, but for me, they are either too basic, or not relevant. I personally would take more benefit from listening to Sheikh Anwar's CD sets. Most things are geared towards re-marketing Islaam as being compatible with British citizenship. These kind of talks are so nauseating.

You can get looks (or comments) for wearing Niqaab or hijab, but obviously not as much as in a white-only suburb. And this is even in Leyton and Walthamstow. But then again, Walthamstow had a big terror arrest recently, so obviously relations are more strained. The day after, my son was told "*@!! off" by a middle-aged woman, when he went a few aisles away from me in the Asda. This has never happened before. He was only 6. East London is seen as overtaken by "pakis", so many kaafirs have a hatred for Islaam, despite hijab not being uncommon. A good portion however, are probably indifferent.

It isn't a bad place to live, but I wouldn't move from a Muslim country to come to the UK, but I haven't lived in one, so I would see them are better than here.

My kids take it for granted that there is always a halal chicken and chips, or a masjid nearby. They probably think the whole of England is like that!


Nurseries:
Noor-ul Islaam

Primary Schools
Al-Noor (goodmayes) or Noor-ul-Islam Primary school.
There is also Headstart (Manor Park) and Apex (Barking)

wa-salaam,
Umm.

[sark]

Assalamu alaykaum sis

huh, thats wierd a topic on moving to the UK has diverted to criteria for marriage, hmm Im not even going to start on that one.

Sis Umm, yep totally agree with the whole 'paki' taking over, but alot of he behaviour that we face is due to many stereotypes that have been set against Muslims, especially those of asian origin.

I live in an area which has changed from being majority white, then kurds, and now somali. With every culture that dominates their culture is very apparent in their everyday life, and it affects the rest of the neighbourhood. This is where 'integration' and its limits come to play. While being part of the society we got to ask ourselves what we can do for society and not what society can do for us, which has become the sterotypical label posted on every imigrant or refugee. Sorry I have digressed.

Sis new_muslim Alhamdulilah glad you'v come to a decion Inshallah there will be alot of khair in it for you.

ws

[AbuAhmad]

I have never been to the UK, is it really only dual-cultural? Pakis and Whites? Soooo many Pakis there I hear.

[AbuAhmad]

new-Muslim, try moving to N.A. It's probably less racist than UK and a whole lot less cultural due to Muslims being here from various backgrounds. BTW, are you british? Or from another European country? There are "Whites" here from other European countries too - Muslim converts or born. Basically, anyone can fit in N.A.

[morbius]

I hope you won’t mind me asking this, but I feel it’s an appropriate question.

Since Quran strongly discourages Muslims to live among Kufr, why do you keep moving into Kufr lands?

Please, do not get me wrong. I am an immigrant myself (legal), so I know all the problems of living life outside of your country. I’m hoping that all of you who want to move into UK will find yourself a good home there. May God help you settle there comfortably, I know how hard it is in the beginning.

However, I do have a problem with Muslims that live in foreign lands and have absolutely no respect for their ways and people. I find it shameful how some of the Muslims speak with complete contempt about everything Kufr, yet find it completely natural to live in Kufr lands and take Kufr money.

[Umm]

I was born here, and am hoping to leave insha'Allah once I get the chance insha'Allah.

[Umm Ahmed]

I have never been to the UK, is it really only dual-cultural? Pakis and Whites? Soooo many Pakis there I hear.

No akhi, there are so many different nationalities that call Uk home , and are muslim. MashaAllaah.

[SAINT GEORGE OF ARABIA]

I hope you won’t mind me asking this, but I feel it’s an appropriate question.

Since Quran strongly discourages Muslims to live among Kufr, why do you keep moving into Kufr lands?

Please, do not get me wrong. I am an immigrant myself (legal), so I know all the problems of living life outside of your country. I’m hoping that all of you who want to move into UK will find yourself a good home there. May God help you settle there comfortably, I know how hard it is in the beginning.

However, I do have a problem with Muslims that live in foreign lands and have absolutely no respect for their ways and people. I find it shameful how some of the Muslims speak with complete contempt about everything Kufr, yet find it completely natural to live in Kufr lands and take Kufr money.

what a childish post

[morbius]

I was born here, and am hoping to leave insha'Allah once I get the chance insha'Allah.
Have things really gotten so bad that you think you should leave?
Or do you also have some other reasons for such decision?

[Umm]

I wear the veil, and you can see that that will soon be banned, so I don't see there is much choice. That will just be the first step, until the hijab is banned too. I don't want to raise my children in a country whole population is being brain-washed by the media to hate Muslims.

[morbius]

I find it almost impossible that UK government will ever make it against the law to wear veil, except in certain cases, such as wearing it in schools or while driving.
Such law might pass in Denmark, though. Locals were not happy about their flags being burned.

Unfortunately, what goes on in the world today reflects in a bad way on common people’s mind. I fear that peaceful, law abiding Muslims in the western countries might suffer for what in no way is their fault.

[new_muslim]

Assalamu alaikum whwb,

I know it's not easy for Muslims in the UK...or anywhere else in Europe for that matter..btw where is N.A??

I'm simply going back for a couple of years insha Allah so i can finish my studies there. with the degree in my hand i'll be able to do much more in places like the middle east etc...

Umm commented on the study circles in East London and said they are very basic/pro-government etc..did anyone make the same experiences?

I'm a bit confused now as the last thing I wanna do is end up with my kids in some cultural jahilliyyah, we really need a good place for all of us - with practising muslims around (ahlul sunnah wal jamah),and things to do (beneficial lectures.halqas)...

I know it won't be perfect , it's not an islamic country, not even a majority muslim population, but I'm sure some places are better than others.

I saw a few lectures from al Muhajjiroon recently and was surprised that muslims were allowed to speak out so freely until recently.

Where do i find people like that in London? or Birmingham?
Any other recommendations??
Jazakallahu khairun!

[new_muslim]

I'm sorry but I just can't agree that muslims should be peaceful or law-abiding..
or live within the kuffar in the 1st place - cos that's exactly why we become like that and starting thinking like them, we stop differentiating haq from falsehood,we stop following the injunctions lade down by Allah - simply because our Kuffar neighbours don't like/agree with them...may Allah save us form that!

It's one thing if we say that we are under a covenant with the British government (visa etc) while living/staying in the UK - which obliges us to be law-abiding and tolerant to an extent to all the kufr that's going on, and another thing if we totally dismiss the obligations to fight the enemies of Allah,the attackers of Muslim lands and the humiliatiors of muslim people all over the world!

as I said i'm also going back for a couple of years only as i can't finish my degree elsewhere- it is not my intention to live in a place filled with fitnah and kufr, nor to raise my children there...

some of us get so comfy there,we don't even wanna leave anymore - we'll leave an islamic country (read=majority muslim population) to go and settle in the west!Auzhubillah!

[new_muslim]

Umm- have you thought of any place you could go where you'd be free of that?? (it's a sincere not a cynical question btw)..as i'm also contemplating...

[new_muslim]

i've observed the following while travelling to different places around the world...let me give u a few examples..

when I was in the UK (3yrs ago,mind u!) -i met/saw some very strong muslims (not all,obviously)- yet it was v hard in terms of displaying ur identity openly by wearing niqaab/having a beard etc (at that time very very few did!) yet i met lots of strong, educated muslims as I said...very outspoken against democracy or any other kind of kufr and shirk for that matter. I'm sure it's become more difficult for muslims there lately...for 2 reasosn: 1 - kuffaar will never ever be happy with us until we follow their ways! 2-because of muslims holding on to their beliefs and values and speaking out against the evil 9as we are commanded to by the way)...

when i stayed in Malaysia for 8 months - a muslim country u 'd think - many many moderates in either their thinking and /or practising islam. islam seen as culture by many...you'll never hear the word jihad or anybody speaking out against what's happening to us in places like chechnya/iraq etc...very western-friendly..

then in south africa - here it's tabligh versus the moderates. for sisters read = not allowed to the masjid at all (however ok to spend ur whole day at the shop) or allowed to hold the friday khutbah and read in the same hall opposite the men(moderates). very very uneducated, totally ignorant(again not all,but majority), following i don't know what to be honest...
pro-government majority and probably many anti - mujahideen...yet i've never seen so many sisters with niqaab/men with beards and cuffed trousers anywhere else!!!

so i'd definitely chose the UK to the later = having strong iman and people like that around me instead of just being dressed like a muslim...

anyone been to the middle east/africa who can tell us about their experiences (negative and positive insha Allah!)
jazakalahu khairun.

[AbuAhmad]

I know it's not easy for Muslims in the UK...or anywhere else in Europe for that matter..btw where is N.A??

NorthAmerica. Try moving to Canada. GTA has the most Muslims - and of all types. If you goto other places like Quebec, they speak French there and it's less multicultural - mostly Morrocans/Algerians and they are mostly Tabligi. Also, Canada has al-Maghrib which I don't think is offered in the UK.

[ibnYaseen]

In fact, I have heard more so than anywhere else. To the extent that some sisters would not even consider brothers from East London. I have personally come across some East Londoners with very cultural paki mentality. But I don't know if it is so widespread in E. London as some people make it out to be.

It was some brothers from East London who told me about you and this website, you're quite well-known and respected in East London.

I don't know much about East London myself, only been there a handful of times, but there IS a presence of practising brothers and sisters who are actively engaging in activities, events, da'wah, etc. The last Cage Prisoners event I went to left me with a very appreciative impression of the community there.

[Umm Ahmed]

To Umm have you moved far from the place you grew up ?
When I am in Uk I dont feel anything different in my own area where I grew up. Strangers like to ask me a lot of questions about Islam once they know that I am British , that might be because they think culturally they can approach me without steping on others toes .
I feel any large city has many problems facing it from the start not knowing your neighbour ect that you dont find in towns and villages throughout UK although you would think the Masjid would bind people together.

To New Muslim I live in the Middle East in a small village , if you know Arabic then its easy to get along here and you can attend helqas, I have seen sisters come and go and run with their children at the first bump , moving to an other country can never be easy , but I see the benefits for the children , same sex schools encourage brother and sisterhood at an early age. The safety factor and people being super helpful are other extras. If your a good trader and have something to sell then the UAE is a good place to start .
Downs being away from one's family is hard , as you dont have anyone to help when your in hospital delivering or any of the other emergencies that crop up.
There are problems everywhere you only need to do research and find the right spot for yourself Ukhti.

[Abuz Zubair]

It was some brothers from East London who told me about you and this website, you're quite well-known and respected in East London.

I don't know much about East London myself, only been there a handful of times, but there IS a presence of practising brothers and sisters who are actively engaging in activities, events, da'wah, etc. The last Cage Prisoners event I went to left me with a very appreciative impression of the community there.
Sorry dear brother if it offended you!

I know a lot of brothers from E London and they are great brothers!

I was just expressing what I have learnt from experience and from others about a general prevalent attitude even amongst practising brothers and sisters.

Sister Umm, you are right about certain sisters from West or South London wanting to be domineering, but this is also true in East London. I have lived with brothers from East London, and what I found amongst them is their attitude not only towards certain sisters in West or South of London, but their attitude towards all the sisters in the UK. They seem to look down on them, thinking that they are too westernised, college-going, bossy, independent, complaining, etc, etc. Their idea of a married life is basically to live with a female who would wash the clothes and dishes, and make nice Indian spicy food, and simply hear and obey without making a single complaint.

This is why they often do not even like to marry sisters who are knowledgeable in deen, thinking that this would make them inferior to their wives! I think they really have this complex about keeping their wives under tight control. So much so that if a husband mistakenly lets out a secret that he washed the dishes on a certain day or that he washed or mended his own clothes, he is laughed at for being 'under the thumb'!

In fact, if a brother is delayed with his friends and his wife calls just to ask 'where he is?', other brothers make him feel embarrassed. So this brother in turn goes back him and lashes out on his wife for calling him to find out why is he being delayed!

I think it has a lot to do with Paki cultural mentality of how a husband-wife relationship should be.

But again, brother abu_sa1f, I emphasise, I think E London brothers are the best bros around, but I just wanted to share an observation, and I guess, that's allowed init bruv! ;)

[ibnYaseen]

No offence taken brother.

I have only superficially met and socialised with E London brothers, be that as it may, I don't think you're far off with your observations as I have heard similar things. The problem with the cultural influences creeping in to practising couples' marraiges is, as I found, that there generally seems to be a lack of clear material available to build a correct mental structure of married life based on the Qur'aan and Sunnah. It's not too hard to come across articles here and there that briefly describe certain things, but something with more depth and relevance is certainly needed. Clear guidence on rights and responsibilities is important, so that the husband and wife both have a reference to check their thoughts, emotions and actions by.

As for the E London brother's feelings towards sisters in the West, it's disappointing to hear practising brothers have these same misconceptions. This fear of being "under the thumb" is a disease, and it needs to be addressed.

I've been up and down the country and met all sorts of brothers from many different areas (even though mainly HTs) I have to say my superficial impression of the E Londoners has been the very impressive.

Btw, brother Abuz-Zubair, I was always under the impression you live in East London, somewhere in the vicinity of Masjid at-Tawheed - in fact I went to the HHUGS event thinking I may bump in to you or something -- don't ask why lol. Any how, I noticed in a thread regarding Hijrah a brother mentioned you're not even in the UK! Me and some others were wondering where you reside at present?

[Umm]

This is why they often do not even like to marry sisters who are knowledgeable in deen, thinking that this would make them inferior to their wives! I think they really have this complex about keeping their wives under tight control. So much so that if a husband mistakenly lets out a secret that he washed the dishes on a certain day or that he washed or mended his own clothes, he is laughed at for being 'under the thumb'!

You have obviously met the local "lads"! Proving that they are NOT under the thumb is more important than proving that they are a good husband, I don't deny that.

With W.London, it isn't as much about domineering, rather about lack of appreciation of a husband who helps. This is because that help has become the norm. It is not seen as a favour, but rather as a right that has to be fulfilled. This has gone to the degree that sisters from West and South London have discouraged sisters to marry "jihadi" husbands as they are harsher etc etc. Would one rather marry their daughter to a man who is firm on his beliefs and willing to sacrifice, or look primarily for how domesticated he is?

And now in East London sisters (having heard about the W.London sisters) expect these paki-cultured men to help, and that isn't their thing, so problems arise. It reminds me of the hadith of Umar (RA)
"We, the people of Quraish used to have the upper hand over our wives, but when we came to the Ansar, we found that their women had the upper hand over their men, so our women also started learning the ways of the Ansari women."

Umm-Ahmed, I am originally from W.London , but my husband is from the East.

abu_sa1f, good point. The Cageprisoners event is a good example. Similar events in W.London and other parts raised less money, even though the brothers there generally earn more.

I think new-muslim, an area is basically what you make of it. With children, I would recommend east london for schools, or wherever in South london that Gratton primary school is. That one is free, from what I hear.

[Umm]

Also, there are halal segregated restaurants here as well as a few Muslim gyms.

[morbius]

I am curious as to how many Pakistanis in London still follow custom of marrying close relatives?
I remember there was a lot of fuss about it couple of years ago. Government started to educate people against such practices, which some of the Paki folk took like a slap to the face.

[ibnYaseen]

Also, there are halal segregated restaurants here as well as a few Muslim gyms.

Does the East London Masjid have a gym on-site? I remember hearing something about that.

[Umm]

It does. It's called Haya Fitness. There is also Al-Badr in Walthamstow, next to the huge breilwi temple.

[abu~Adil as somali]

birmingham is the islamic central of uk...) ..

[livingshaheed]

Assalamu alaikum whwb,

I know it's not easy for Muslims in the UK...or anywhere else in Europe for that matter..btw where is N.A??

I'm simply going back for a couple of years insha Allah so i can finish my studies there. with the degree in my hand i'll be able to do much more in places like the middle east etc...

Umm commented on the study circles in East London and said they are very basic/pro-government etc..did anyone make the same experiences?

I'm a bit confused now as the last thing I wanna do is end up with my kids in some cultural jahilliyyah, we really need a good place for all of us - with practising muslims around (ahlul sunnah wal jamah),and things to do (beneficial lectures.halqas)...

I know it won't be perfect , it's not an islamic country, not even a majority muslim population, but I'm sure some places are better than others.

I saw a few lectures from al Muhajjiroon recently and was surprised that muslims were allowed to speak out so freely until recently.

Where do i find people like that in London? or Birmingham?
Any other recommendations??
Jazakallahu khairun!


Ummmm...I dont think the Muhajiroon are the right type of folk to be impressed with or the type one would like to meet.

[gag order]

Their idea of a married life is basically to live with a female who would wash the clothes and dishes, and make nice Indian spicy food, and simply hear and obey without making a single complaint.

and whats wrong with that?

[Abuz Zubair]

Many things wrong with that... their wives never progress in deen, and subsequently have a bad affect on the kids... they feel used, mistreated, with no purpose more than just housemaids, rather, slaves... whereas Allahs: live with them in an honourable fashion...

[Husain]

So if we just add the progress in deen, then everything would be OK, right?

- Husain.

[gag order]

they feel used, mistreated, with no purpose more than just housemaids, rather, slaves...

the ones who feel like that just desire to be like their western counterparts.
abu are even married or have kids?

[Abuz Zubair]

We should aspire for our women folk to be like the Sahabiyyat... they were as much part of the Islamic mission as were the men. They would learn, teach, join military campaigns and make great contributions to the wider society... They weren't simply housewives...

While it may be true that some sisters are westernised, the same is true about the brothers. But the way some brothers treat their wives is appalling. Others go to Pak to get a wife, only to find them even more westernised than those in the West.

[gag order]

the way some brothers treat their wives is appalling.
if by that you mean cooking and cleaning then you are wrong, but if you mean abusing, belittling and ridiculing then i have nothing but contempt for such people.

They would learn, teach, join military campaigns and make great contributions to the wider society...
yes but not at the expense of running a home! if they can fit it in to their schedule and it doesnt conflict with their more fun priorities such as shopping and eating out and chatting rubbish on their mobeels then fine!

[Husain]

We should aspire for our women folk to be like the Sahabiyyat... they were as much part of the Islamic mission as were the men. They would learn, teach, join military campaigns and make great contributions to the wider society... They weren't simply housewives...
First of all, being a good housewife is not that 'simple'. Good housewives with proper Islamic understanding who are able to raise children filled with Imaan are in my opinion the greatest contribution to the society. And this is actually a full time job. Do you seriously want your wife to keep the house clean, raise the children, AND join a military campaign?

And what do you do with quotes like: Al-Imaam Abu Bakr ibn al-'arabee Rahimahullaah said: "I entered more than 1000 small towns and I didnt see better kids or more chaste women than the women of Naablous (a known city in Filasteen). I stayed in it a whole month and I didnt see a woman in the streets at daytime, except on friday when they came out to attend the Jum'ah prayer until the street was full of them. When the prayer had finshed and they returned to their homes and my eye didnt see any of them until next Friday." (The Book 'Ahkaam al Qur'aan' by Ibn al-'arabee Al-Maaliki)

And what about A'ishah saying that the Prophet (a.s.s.) would have prevented the women folk of her era to go to the mosques if he saw how they behave?

What about the bulk of scholars saying that women should not leave their houses unless in case of necessity?

I don't think that women spending a lot of time outside is something we should long for. There is a lot of work to be done at home and I can hardly see a majority of nowadays women up for that task alone.

- Husain.

[abu dujanah]

brother looking at the current times i would agree with what brother abu zubayr said bcos at this time when the shariah has been dismantled and the whole world is covered by oppression and kufr law, then the woman should be involved in helping to establish the islamic state as did the saahabiyat's.
meaning we should sacrifice our own desires of our wife or wives doing this and that for us, housework etc...and rather let them help in establishing the deen of Allah within the shariah though.

[Abu_Adam]

ASA,

I think Walthamstow and Leytonstone are good areas to live in.
Leyton: it depends where in Leyton, some areas aren't that nice.

WSA

[Abuz Zubair]

There is a lot more to it then women staying at home. No one disagrees that women should not be stopped from going to the mosques, or that they can go to circles of knowledge etc.

This is my dilemma, and I haven't made up my mind on this issue. I am just thinking aloud here and not suggesting anything: During my study I have often found certain historical incidents indicating that perhaps the early generations were somewhat more liberal than we are today, and I think Anwar al-Awlaqi made the same remarks, but when I first heard them I couldn't seem to agree. Now, the more I read, the more it seems that the women of that time were not as house-bound as we have them today. In a mursal hadeeth from 'ikrima, apparently, when Abu Sufyan came to Madina to restore their pact after having broken it by fighting Khuza'a, he approached 'Ali and Fatima, to make them intercede in his behalf to the Prophet (because at that time, he was not on speaking terms with Abu Sufyan). After 'Ali refused, he turned to Fatima and begged of the same. Now, if it was any of us in place of 'Ali, he would not have Fatima in the same gathering, let alone allow a stranger to speak to her. And even then, if it was me, I would rather that he asks me, and then I relate it to my wife, than to allow him to speak to her directly.

There are also other incidents that show that male-female interaction at that time was not as strict as it exists today.

Ibn Taymiyya, being an unmarried man, had a female student who was one of the famous political-social heroins of Baghdad, remembered as a big fan of Ibn Taymiyya and the commender of Good and preventer of evil. Ibn Taymiyya says in praise of her that he had many conversations with her and that she was so clever that she would understand an issue the first time Ibn Taymiyya explains it that he wouldn't find the need to repeat himself.

Then of course, there were female scholars of hadeeth who would have audible sessions of narrations for younger students like al-Dhahabi, etc... Yet, even the thought of it would make me feel very uneasy... but it happened.

In terms of fiqh, the guidelines for interaction between opposite sex is still not well defined. It is all fair and good to say brothers and sisters should not speak to each other except for necessity, or that they should not be in a room together, and that is even applied to the cousins. Yet, in the ikhtiyarat of Ibn Taymiyya, I read that it is permissible for one to enter upon his cousin, so long as they are both not alone in the room. I have also seen and hear of many Mashaykh speaking to the wives of their students without necessity, such as: how are you, how is your husband? Does he need anything? etc etc...

Then today, we have emails, letters, etc... and we lack guidelines as to the permissibility of a sister writing an email to a brother. Is it, or is it not khulwa? etc, etc, etc...

So I think there are a lot of dimensions that need answering, but I do feel when reading about the early Muslim generation is that we have become somewhat more conservative than the Salaf.

As far as the treatment of our western brothers towards women, then this is a different story.

[juwairiyah]

Assalamo'alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh

I am reading this for the first time.I know we shdnt mix with non mahrams including cousins ... akhi maybe they erred coz they were insan too

[Abuz Zubair]

Well, it is possible that Ibn Taymiyya and those before and after him erred. But it is not easy to impute error on scholars. I am not saying that free mixing is allowed. Of course it is not, in principle. But where are the lines drawn? What is or isn't allowed? Why is it allowed for a sister to email a brother for anything? Or is it? These are the questions that need answering... and I feel that some of us have already answered these questions for ourselves, albeit, not based on concrete Islamic proofs.

I am not saying what is or is not allowed. I am questioning the premise for a lot of the views we might have adopted on these issues, in light of what I have come across during my studies.

[AbuAhmad]

Abu Zubair, I don't know how you consider today's rules and regulation more strict than that of the Salaf. There is much more free-mixing nowadays than the historic narrations you have provided. It depends what type of Muslims you interact with. Perhaps, it's just a UK thing but here, I have seen woman and men all alone in mosques.

[Abuz Zubair]

I am talking about those of us who come from a Salafi background... Everyone knows Ikhwanis and others have no concept about free-mixing.

[Umm Ahmed]

Scholars and callers mention the dangers of free mixing , because of the mail and questions they receive from brothers and sisters, where lines have been crossed and thus led to serious consequences.

[juwairiyah]

Assalamo'alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh

Bro ure right there r no lines drawn and i think this is the hikmah of Allah.Had Allah said dont talk to non mahrams then we wld have been sinning whenever we opened our mouth in front of non mahrams subhanAllah life would have been so difficult.,the sahabiyats wld even greet the sahabahs ,Aisha r.a. taught behind the curtain.Everything was so clean and pure Alhamdulillah.On the contrary we also have examples where s.a.w aske dthe women to walk on the side,made another door for the women,let the women go out of the masjid before the men. These r proofs that we shd avoid free mixing as mucha s we can but at the same w ecan talk when necessary within the islamic guidelines InshaAllah and Allah Knows Best

[gag order]

the issue is not about social and political and academic heroins amongst the salaf. it is about the ordinary muslimah of today who has to run the home first and foremost and after that engage in other islamic activities so long as this does not conflict with duties upon her husband.

the purpose of marriage is not so that muslimahs can attend even more pointless halaqas or neverending circles, demos, conferences. if they want to be out and about then get a P/T job!

[Abuz Zubair]

Once again... I am NOT calling for free-mixing, nor am I giving a fatwa here... I agree with the principle of free-mixing and yes the lack of it had, does, and will lead to fitna between genders.

The only thing I am trying to highlight is that perhaps we have drawn certain lines for ourselves where the Sharia did not draw any lines at all. For instance, there are some sisters, if you were to call to speak to her husband, instead of saying: 'sorry, he's not at home at the moment, call back in an hour's time', she would simply tap on the speaker, expecting you to figure that there is no male person to answer his phone at present. Now, something like this could be a brother's preference for his wife out of his ghira... but can anyone claim that this what Sharia demands of us?

And as I earlier said: Is a sister emailing a brother, when no one can read the email except the two, considered khulwa or not? What is khulwa, and how is it exactly defined? Do we even have a fixed definition? Or do the scholars differ?

Sisters going out of the house, for instance, can a mother take her kids out for a walk for half an hour, or must she stay indoors at all times? Let's say if there is al-Maghrib or al-Kawthar course organised in the city, and the course is not all that necessary for her, should she be allowed to leave her home to attend the classes or not?

Another scenario: Is it permissible for the brothers and sisters to have an ISOC meeting and discuss various issues?

Is it permissible for the sisters in the West to attend mixed unis? (in most of the countries in the world). How about travelling in mixed tube or train?

How about sisters practising medicine, if it involves dealing with male patients?

What if a Kafir man asks a Muslim woman about Islam, is she allowed to converse with him or not?

There are hosts of other issues where there are no clear-cut guidelines. And these are the issues that need to be researched in light of the early Muslim community, in terms of what they tolerated and what they didn't.
the issue is not about social and political and academic heroins amongst the salaf. it is about the ordinary muslimah of today who has to run the home first and foremost and after that engage in other islamic activities so long as this does not conflict with duties upon her husband.

the purpose of marriage is not so that muslimahs can attend even more pointless halaqas or neverending circles, demos, conferences. if they want to be out and about then get a P/T job!

You are right. Her priority is at home. But it does not mean she cannot engage in social activities. The problem I am trying to highlight is that the brothers have become distant from the concept of zuhd and embraced extravagance, and this is why they expect too much from their wives. For instance, in Ramadan they expect her to make the most variety of dishes through out the month, in expense of her right to worship. Her entire month is spent cooking, cleaning and serving the guests at iftar parties, while men can simply go out for tarawih and benefit from their ramadan.

So the point is that we as men expect too much from their wives which makes their social contribution suffer. And I am speaking from what I have witnessed.

The bad effect of that is that if the brother is socially active, and the sister hasn't a clue about it, is not concerned about what goes on in the society, she becomes unable to relate to him regarding anything. Now, if the husband himself isn't a social person then he has nothing to worry about. But this is not what a Muslim should be.

Both, the husband and wife should have this zeal for da'wah and the betterment of the society, and they both should be involved in activities, albeit, to varying levels... but they all have to play some part.

By that I do not just mean going to talk, lectures and demos. This is a very narrow-minded view of things. I mean that they should try to set up nursery for children, go out and teach, try to educate the women in their local area, etc, etc, etc... there is a lot for them to do. But they cannot do anything if our demands overburden the sisters.

I mean, the Prophet - SallAllahu 'alayhi wa-sallam - was described as the man who would mend his own clothes and serve himself without expecting anything from his wives. But the brothers today would be too ashamed to tell their mates that they have been mending their clothes, in case other brothers mock him saying: 'hmmm... so now we know who wears the trousers at home, eh?'

I mean, do not we have an example in the Prophet? Didn't he say be nice to your wives? Didn't he used to live in a room where he wouldn't even be able to stand properly? Where are we from those husbands?

I hope my point is clear.

[justabro]

Once again... I am NOT calling for free-mixing, nor am I giving a fatwa here... I agree with the principle of free-mixing and yes the lack of it had, does, and will lead to fitna between genders.

The only thing I am trying to highlight is that perhaps we have drawn certain lines for ourselves where the Sharia did not draw any lines at all. For instance, there are some sisters, if you were to call to speak to her husband, instead of saying: 'sorry, he's not at home at the moment, call back in an hour's time', she would simply tap on the speaker, expecting you to figure that there is no male person to answer his phone at present. Now, something like this could be a brother's preference for his wife out of his ghira... but can anyone claim that this what Sharia demands of us?

To be honest, I have to admit that similar thoughts have crossed my mind. It is true that on the one hand, there are a host of texts to suppose the strictness, there are some things that seem to be a bit exaggerated at times. the Qur'an tells us about the fitnah of women's voice, and even if one accepts the position that the face is not awrah, one cannot deny that at the least, covering the face was the predominant practice of Muslim free women, otherwise, how could ibn Mas'ud have reached the conclusion that al zinah al dhahirah is the garments only. if significant numbers free muslim women were walking about with their faces uncovered in the streets of Madinah in the days of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم), I doubt ibn Mas'ud could have reached such a conclusion, nor any of the other scholars after him from the Salaf who adopted similar positions. So, certainly, some strictness is warranted and clearly justified by the explicit words of the texts not to mention their explicit texts.

or, the incident with al-Fadl and the Khath'ami girl when the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) kept turning his face away. in fact, in a wording, he even states afterwards, "I saw a shabb and shabbah who I feared would not be safe from Shaytan." (very rough translation)

just a note, if we consider this last statement, i think we can perhaps say many of those examples mentioned

However, on the other hand, we find exchanges taking place between men and women such as those mentioned by Abuz Zubayr. In the famous hadith of al-ifk, when the prophet gave his speech in defense of the innocence of A'ishah and Safwan ibn Mu'attil al-Sulami (the Sahabi accused of committing adultery of her), he said about him (a) that he knows nothing but good concerning him and (b) "he never entered upon my family except while in my company"

i think all of us are aware of just how small the hujuraat (apartments) of the Mothers of the Believers were, yet he entered with him.

With the incident you mentioned about Abu Sufyan in particular, perhaps it may be a consideration that Abu Sufyan would have been advanced in age at that time as he is said to have died somewhere around 32-34 H. His age is said to have been anywhere from 84-93. This means that at the time of the hijrah he was at least the same age as the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم), if not older.

Incidentally, in desi parlance, he would have been an "uncle." Which brings me to another issue. It is common with desis that older men ("uncles") will pat/brush the head of young girls/ladies upon greeting them. I've noticed that even with those who are ulama there (both ahle hadis and deobandis) they also practice this.

If anything, I think this speaks to how culture may color the way scholars understand texts. While I might come to accept "uncles" talking to my wife, i certainly cannot stand them trying to touch my wife. they can call her "beti" until theyre blue in the face, the practice still infuriates me.

again, i am only throwing out some random thoughts on the topic, not trying to necessarily endorse any certain position

You are right. Her priority is at home. But it does not mean she cannot engage in social activities. The problem I am trying to highlight is that the brothers have become distant from the concept of zuhd and embraced extravagance, and this is why they expect too much from their wives. For instance, in Ramadan they expect her to make the most variety of dishes through out the month, in expense of her right to worship. Her entire month is spent cooking, cleaning and serving the guests at iftar parties, while men can simply go out for tarawih and benefit from their ramadan.

So the point is that we as men expect too much from their wives which makes their social contribution suffer. And I am speaking from what I have witnessed.

The bad effect of that is that if the brother is socially active, and the sister hasn't a clue about it, is not concerned about what goes on in the society, she becomes unable to relate to him regarding anything. Now, if the husband himself isn't a social person then he has nothing to worry about. But this is not what a Muslim should be.

Both, the husband and wife should have this zeal for da'wah and the betterment of the society, and they both should be involved in activities, albeit, to varying levels... but they all have to play some part.

By that I do not just mean going to talk, lectures and demos. This is a very narrow-minded view of things. I mean that they should try to set up nursery for children, go out and teach, try to educate the women in their local area, etc, etc, etc... there is a lot for them to do. But they cannot do anything if our demands overburden the sisters.

I mean, the Prophet - SallAllahu 'alayhi wa-sallam - was described as the man who would mend his own clothes and serve himself without expecting anything from his wives. But the brothers today would be too ashamed to tell their mates that they have been mending their clothes, in case other brothers mock him saying: 'hmmm... so now we know who wears the trousers at home, eh?'

I mean, do not we have an example in the Prophet? Didn't he say be nice to your wives? Didn't he used to live in a room where he wouldn't even be able to stand properly? Where are we from those husbands?

I hope my point is clear.

This is so true... we have TOO many double standards which are absolutely unjustifiable in Islam

[Umm]

The difference is that the sahabah were balanced and consistent. In the Asian communities you have brothers and sisters who segregate amongst friends, when outside at study circles etc, yet mix in the house with their cousins, inlaws, family friends etc. The sahabah never had these double standards.

Once my husband was outside the masjid. Some old auntie had fallen on the road, in the bus lane I think, and none of the brothers would help him lift her off the road, as it would be having physical contact with a female. So instead, they form a huge crowd and panic. The auntie in turn panics even more. The kuffar were more organised dealing with the injuries after the 7/7 blasts than these brothers were with 1 auntie.

[juwairiyah]

Assalamo'alaykum WarahmatullahiW abarakatuh

The difference is that the sahabah were balanced and consistent. In the Asian communities you have brothers and sisters who segregate amongst friends, when outside at study circles etc, yet mix in the house with their cousins, inlaws, family friends etc. The sahabah never had these double standards.

true this is what i dont like too

[Abu Dharr Al Kashmiri]

Bismillah

Alhumdulillah wa salaatu wa salaamu ala ashraf al anbiya wal mursaleen,

amma ba'd

Subhaan'Allah, why would anyone want to move to the UK?! Or as a matter, not intending to move out of the UK?! Unless due to uncontrollable circumstances, even still. In these times of fitnah and confusion, we opt to take the easy options.

The true believers towards the end of times, will be around al quds, al hejaz, shaam etc. as we can see from ahadith about Al Mahdi and Isa Ibn Maryam Alayhi Salaam.

We have become intranet muslims, da'wah, jihad, Al Hisbah, Amr bil Marouf wa nahi anil munkar, over Broadband connections, yes the intranet is a good tool of information, but we definately are not equal to ones who work for the Akhira today as did the sahaba radhi'allahu anhum.

I remember last summer when i was in UAE last summer and one of the imaams of the masjid in Jumeirah, wanted to come to the UK and was enquiring about residency etc, subhaan'allah i could not and did not want to believe what he was saying. Him living in a 'muslim' country, masjid in every locality, adhaan 5 times a day, the 'muslims' in charge, the beach and sea about 3.5 minutes from the masjid, beautiful weather masha'allah, and you want to come to the UK?! Allahul Musta'aan.


Wallahu Ghalibun ala Amrih' wa la kinna akthrannaasi la ya'lamoon.

WalHamdulillahil 'Rabbil 'Aalameen

[Abuz Zubair]

The difference is that the sahabah were balanced and consistent. In the Asian communities you have brothers and sisters who segregate amongst friends, when outside at study circles etc, yet mix in the house with their cousins, inlaws, family friends etc. The sahabah never had these double standards.

Well, this is the question. Did the Sahaba have the understanding we have with respect to not mixing at all, or not even asking female cousins: 'how are you?' Ibn taymiyya said that a man can enter upon his female cousin, with the condition that there shouldn't be khulwa. He was asked specifically about entering upon a female cousin and not someone completely unrelated. So my question is, is there a difference between a cousin and someone completely strange? Or is the female cousin's ruling also applicable to all unrelated women?

Also, how about speaking to a female cousin who is 20 or 30 years older than you?

Many brothers' mothers speak to me casually and ask me how I am and my family. Should I say to them: Sorry I do not speak to strange women? Or should I ask them: can you tell me if your period has stopped so that I would know whether you are old enough that I may speak to you?!

The point I am making is the fiqhi issues are all inter-related, and when one holds an opinion, he/she has to make sure that it remains perfectly consistent with all other fiqhi opinions on similar issues. Otherwise, either the person will make everything haram on himself, or make everything halal for himself, or fall into contradictions, simply because he does not have a fiqhi maxim to relate to and be guided by.

Now, what exactly is free mixing? What happens on this forum, is it free-mixing? And why not? Again, I am not saying what is right or wrong. I am only highlighting the need for this issue to be studied because not everything here is clear cut as we may have thought, or were taught.

[WM]

Brother, you're just confusing me without need. Just ignore all women and the problem solves itself, its quite simple, really. Plus, why shouldn't women be made to stay at home- its the consensus of humanity that backs that opinion- it must be part of the fitrah. If women were not meant to stay at home, they would not have wombs...do you see what I mean?

[Umm]

What I mean is how Muslims will free-mix, not just a salaam, but talking and joking with the opposite sex in a room, just because it is in their house. Just because they are their distant cousin or family friends etc etc.

Why should cousins be made an exception of? They are non-mahram, like any other. Would brothers/sisters who salaam their cousins do so to sisters on the street? I am not saying that salaaming the opposite sex is haram, but it should be consistent. Not that a brother never salaams sisters who are strangers, but when his mother prods him and says, "She is so-and-so's beti, give her salaam", then he does so.

Yes, we have gone to an extreme in this country, due to the da'wah we were given.

For example, there are sisters who work in public places along non-mahram men in shops etc. Now, inside their homes, if the wife needs to walk through a passage where Muslim brothers are, the husband will tell everyone to turn around so that they do not see their wife who is wearing hijab anyway. What for? Do their work collegues and customers talk to the wife with their backs turned? It is just fake piety.

I have even heard sisters tell me that their husbands watch hollywood movies. Now, how do these brothers lower their gazes every 2 seconds when a 1/2 naked whore comes on and still watch the film? Yet these same brothers, when I or any veiled sister walks past, immediately look down/turn their backs until we pass. Not to say they shouldn't, but in which case is the lowering of the gaze more needed?

No doubt we have been given the wrong tarbiyyah. But how does one make a change? How many of us sisters, even if it isn't haraam, are going to go up to brothers whose wives we know and say "Assalaamu Alaikum akhee, how are you?"

I disagree with the stupidity of SP sisters tapping down the phone. And wouldn't they speak if a man from the DSS was telling them about an increase in their benefits?

The point is, what is understood by free-mixing? If I am standing outside the masjid and a brother says "Sister, could you please call my wife down? Her name is such-and-such", I wouldn't consider that free-mixing.

If, at a family gathering, sisters are wearing less hijab than outside, joking with their brother-in-laws etc, I would consider this haram.

We have seen how the ikhwaanis are so loose with eachother. Sisters phoning non-mahram brothers everyday as "platonic" friends and vice versa.

Yes, we might have gone to one extreme, and them to another, but I know which extreme, if it is so, I would rather be at in order to avoid fitnah.

[juwairiyah]

Well, this is the question. Did the Sahaba have the understanding we have with respect to not mixing at all, or not even asking female cousins: 'how are you?' Ibn taymiyya said that a man can enter upon his female cousin, with the condition that there shouldn't be khulwa. He was asked specifically about entering upon a female cousin and not someone completely unrelated. So my question is, is there a difference between a cousin and someone completely strange? Or is the female cousin's ruling also applicable to all unrelated women?

Also, how about speaking to a female cousin who is 20 or 30 years older than you?

Many brothers' mothers speak to me casually and ask me how I am and my family. Should I say to them: Sorry I do not speak to strange women? Or should I ask them: can you tell me if your period has stopped so that I would know whether you are old enough that I may speak to you?!

The point I am making is the fiqhi issues are all inter-related, and when one holds an opinion, he/she has to make sure that it remains perfectly consistent with all other fiqhi opinions on similar issues. Otherwise, either the person will make everything haram on himself, or make everything halal for himself, or fall into contradictions, simply because he does not have a fiqhi maxim to relate to and be guided by.

Now, what exactly is free mixing? What happens on this forum, is it free-mixing? And why not? Again, I am not saying what is right or wrong. I am only highlighting the need for this issue to be studied because not everything here is clear cut as we may have thought, or were taught.


Assalamo'alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh

yes i understand ur point Alhamdulillah ............
how shd a sis live in the same house with the bro in law ?i shd ask how did the sahabiyahs live in the same house with their bro in law?r there any hadeeths?

[Abuz Zubair]

Easy muhaqiq, remeber, you still need to get married!

Thank you sis Umm for your excellent post.

sis juwayriya

how shd a sis live in the same house with the bro in law ?i shd ask how did the sahabiyahs live in the same house with their bro in law?r there any hadeeths?

Well, this is the issue, because the Arabs since the olden days up until today do not believe in joint family system. They have always had the custom to provide the wife with her own shelter, even if it be one room. Some Arabs are horrified when they are told that Pakistani Muslim wives live together with their in-laws.

[gag order]

Easy muhaqiq, remeber, you still need to get married!

lol, better keep those views to yourself till after you get married lol !

[Abu Hafsa]

London is congested too much traffic, people, and parking issues... nasty !!

I would love to live on a farm, plenty of that in UK, outside london, with broadband of course. Mmmmmmmm beautiful open country air, green grass, cows, fields and Tandoori roast chickens stuffed with rice. Sorry for the diversion, Tafadul.

[AbuAhmad]

Plus, why shouldn't women be made to stay at home

If I ever had a wife and she left the house, with out telling me - I would probably divorce her.

[Abu_Adam]

If I ever had a wife ...

Hehe...

Maybe this is only making me smile... 'if you ever had a wife...' :-)

Just kidding bro :-) don't get offended.