Tawasul

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

http://seekingilm.com/archives/24#more-24

Is there any response to this jazakallah khayr

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

Also what about the hadith of the man in need who wanted to speak to uthman ibn affan radiallahu anhu he was instructed to do tawasul.

And is it shirk to say O Allah i turn to you through the Prophet Muhammed salalahu alayhi wa salam

[waziri]

As our respected brother abu Zubair is away Ill take the liberty of posting his answer about tawasull which he answered some time ago.

"as-salaamu 'alaikum,

Tawassul - by asking Allah directly, through the status of the Prophet - is a fiqhi issue of difference as mentioned previously. There are more pressing issues with respect to the Sufis Ash'aris that we must deal with, for amongst these Sufis are those who actually call upon other than Allah. This is the very Shirk which the pre-Islamic pagans were guilty of and the Quran frequently condenms in non-explicit terms. This issue is more important.

Besides, all the ahadeeth which they use to support their fiqhi argument are either weak, or out of context. But again, that can be discussed in an academic discussion.

Ibn Taymiyya was not the first one to believe the illegality of this type of tawassul. He has been preceded by al-'Izz b. 'Abd al-Salam and before him Abu Hanifa.

The qiyas of the madhab of the three Imams (excluding Ibn Hanbal) suggests that tawassul through someone's right not be allowed. Hence, not one narration from the three Imams about the permissiblity of tawassul. The narration about al-Shafi'i is a lie, and its authentication by al-Kawthari the heretic is not surprising at all. Only a person of hawa like him can weaken the thiqat like Abdullah b. Imam Ahmad and the narrators of Bukhari and Muslim, yet strengthen weak and fabricating narrators to support his quburi fanaticism.

Even though the issue is if ikhtilaf, it is this bias research that is a crime against Islam, which should not be described as anything less than A CRIME."

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

Salamu alaykum


isnt ash shawkani though speaking against the interpretation of these ayahs that were interpreted the same way as Imaam Muhammad ibn abdul wahab in his kashf ush shubuhaat?

[waziri]

Im not sure about your question bro but here is another reply which abu Zubair gave concerning tawassul.(I hope the brother doesnt mind me using his replys)

"as-Salaamu 'Alaikum,

The Hanbalis are divided over the issue of Tawassul through the Prophet - SallAllahu 'alaihi wa-sallam, primarily because Imam Ahmad said to al-Marrudhi (his closest student), "One should make Tawassul through the Prophet".

Referring to all the books of Fiqh (nearly) by the Hanbalis who came after Ibn Taymiyah, one notices that when they mention this issue, they immediately follow it up with the opinion and understanding of Ibn Taymiyah on this issue.

Ibn Taymiyah says that in light of the fact that Ahmad allowed one to swear an oath by the Prophet, he also allowed one to make Tawassul through him. The other narration from Ahmad forbids one from swearing an oath by the Prophet, and hence, it could be extracted from this narration the prohibition of making Tawassul through the Prophet as well.

The reason why Imam Ahmad allowed one to swear an oath by the Prophet, is because the Prophet SallAllahu 'Alahi wa-sallam is twin-half of the testimony of faith, so the one swearing by the Prophet is as if he is swearing by Allah. Hence, he allowed it, and said that the one breaks such oath must make Kaffarah. This is why Imam Ahmad restricted the permissibility of Tawassul as well as oath by the Prophet SallAllahu 'aliahi wa-sallam only.

According to the other narration, however, such is not the case, and likewise, one may not make Tawassul through the Prophet.

However, one may make Tawassul through his love for the Prophet, etc…

Having said that, one should remember – as Sheikh Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab said – that this issue is an issue of khilaf (legitimate difference of opinion) and one may not condemn another for doing, or not doing Tawassul through the Prophets and the righteous people.

This should also highlight to us how misunderstood Sheikh Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab amongst those who claim to love him, not to mention his enemies!

And as bro Abu Ilyas said, this issue has nothing to do with Tawheed and Shirk.

wasalam"

Also brother abu Zubair added

"Marrudhi is the devout student of Imam Ahmad and it is to him that Imam Ahmad wrote in his Manasik: 'One should make Tawassul through the Prophet', and the book is authentically attributed to him. In fact, I know of no scholar to doubt in its authenticity. Sh Bakr Abu Zaid also affirms it in his Madkhal.

If there was any doubt in its authenticity, no doubt Ibn Taymiyah would have pointed it out, for it is not from the character of ibn Taymiyah to quote such a narration and not criticise it at all, espacially in his book on Tawassul where he did a very thorough research on the topic."

wasalam

[Um Abdullah M.]

Also what about the hadith of the man in need who wanted to speak to uthman ibn affan radiallahu anhu he was instructed to do tawasul.

And is it shirk to say O Allah i turn to you through the Prophet Muhammed salalahu alayhi wa salam

just a correction
it was Uthman Ibn Hunaif (or Hanif) (radiyallahu anhu) not sure which way it is pronounced in Arabic.

It was not Uthman bin Affan radiyallahu anhu

[Abuz Zubair]

It is actually 'Uthman b. 'Affan.

'Uthman b. Hunayf is the narrator who told the man in need, how to get his need fulfilled from 'Uthman b. 'Affan.

[mizbah]

Assalamualaykum ,

What about the authenticity of this athar of man in need ???

rgds

[Abuz Zubair]

disputed... but as far as I remember, it was weak... but even if it was authentic, it is merely a statement of a sahabi whose speciality was not knowledge, and the fact that he contradicted the practise of 'umar and the rest of the companions, of asking the living person to pray for one. Besides, the story does not portray 'uthman b. 'affan in good light.

[Abdullah al-Shishani]

It is actually 'Uthman b. 'Affan.

'Uthman b. Hunayf is the narrator who told the man in need, how to get his need fulfilled from 'Uthman b. 'Affan.

By the way who is Uthman b. Hunayf, does anyone know how much time he had spent with the Prophet (s.a.w.), because according to the definition of some great tabiee, (i think Said ibn Masayib) a sahabi is the one who had spent, if I remember correctly, three years with the Prophet (saw), unlike what we think today.

[Abuz Zubair]

The correct and the most famous opinion amongst the traditionists is that a Sahabi is the one who met the Prophet, being a Muslim, and died on Islam.

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

what the daleel used for that bro?

jzk

[Umm Ahmed]

By the way who is Uthman b. Hunayf, does anyone know how much time he had spent with the Prophet (s.a.w.), because according to the definition of some great tabiee, (i think Saad ibn Masayr) a sahabi is the one who had spent, if I remember correctly, three years with the Prophet (saw), unlike what we think today.

Do you have that definition please ?

[Um Abdullah M.]

It is actually 'Uthman b. 'Affan.

'Uthman b. Hunayf is the narrator who told the man in need, how to get his need fulfilled from 'Uthman b. 'Affan.

thanks for correcting me
I thought he meant the narrator.

[Abdullah al-Shishani]

Do you have that definition please ?

Some tabiee had a different opinion from the majority. For example a tabiee Said ibn al Musayib, thought that a sahabi is the one who had been a companion of the Prophet (s.a.w.) at least for 1 year. And in another narration from Said ibn Masayib he had said that the time of companionship should be 3 years. The asl is what Abuz Zubair said, however, according to this salafi talib ul ilm from whose lecture I mention all this, the bit "and died on this" is not needed, because all sahaba died on this, except Isa (as), who is alive and will come back. And he mentions the books of Imam Dhahabi, where he states that ISa (as) is a sahabi of Rasulullah, and he saw him and prayed behind him.

In any case Sahaba (ra) are without a doubt the greatest muslims and the best generation, however, they are not all the same, and have different status as we know, for example those who took part in Badr, those who gave bayat under the tree etc., and even then, they were humans and sometimes made mistakes, as we know, for example some sahabi (ra) during the Hilafa of Umar (ra) I think, thought that wine is halal for them, based on wrong understanding of an ayat. The only person we follow blindly absolutely, is Rasuloollah (saw).

[Abuz Zubair]

what the daleel used for that bro?

jzk
How dare you ask for dalil, you salafi! (only jokin)

As far as I remember this is the understanding of the word in the language 'suhba', i.e. to accompany someone, so whoever accompanied the Prophet, being a Muslim and died upon Islam is a Sahabi. The scholars, I think, use another textual proof for this where the Prophet said to his companions: 'you are my companions', which they used to suggest that a companion is one who accompanies the Prophet, even if it be for a moment.

Some tabiee had a different opinion from the majority. For example a tabiee Said ibn al Musayib, thought that a sahabi is the one who had been a companion of the Prophet (s.a.w.) at least for 1 year
The narration from Sa'id b. Musayyib in this respect is weak.

according to this salafi talib ul ilm from whose lecture I mention all this, the bit "and died on this" is not needed, because all sahaba died on thisNot true. Some 'Sahaba' left Islam whilst the Prophet was alive and died on Kufr. Some Sahaba left Islam whilst the Prophet was alive, but re-embraced it during his life. Others left Islam after the Prophet's death, during the wars of apostasy, and some of them died on kufr whilst others re-embraced.

[Umm Ahmed]

Baraak Allaah feekum

[juwairiyah]

Assalamo'alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh

Some 'Sahaba' left Islam whilst the Prophet was alive and died on Kufr. Some Sahaba left Islam whilst the Prophet was alive, but re-embraced it during his life. Others left Islam after the Prophet's death, during the wars of apostasy, and some of them died on kufr whilst others re-embraced

who r they bro

[abusufyaan]

Abuz Zubair, does al-Haafidh Ibn Hajr (rahimahullaah) include all of these categories that you mentioned in his work al-Isaabah?

[Um Abdullah M.]

Assalamo'alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh

who r they bro

sister, an example of

Some 'Sahaba' left Islam whilst the Prophet was alive and died on Kufr

is Ubaidallah Ibn Jahsh, who was the first husband of Um Habibah (Ramla bint Abi Sufyan) radiyallahu anha, her first husband Ubaidallah became a Muslim in Makkah before Hijrah, then they made hijrah to Habasha (Abesnia) and there her husband became a Christian and died upon kufr.
Then the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam married her radiyallahu anha.

so Ubaidallah bin Jahsh would be an example of that.

[juwairiyah]

Assalamo'alaykum Warahmatullah Wabarakatuh

JazakAllahukhair sis Asmaa

[Abuz Zubair]

who r they bro
From those who left Islam whilst the Prophet was alive: Ibn Khatal (and 'ubayd Allah b. Jahsh, as pointed out, according to many reports)

From those who left Islam but re-embraced while the Prophet was alive: 'Abdullah b. Abi Sarh.

From those who left Islam but re-embraced after the Prophet's death: Qurra b. Hubayra.

Abuz Zubair, does al-Haafidh Ibn Hajr (rahimahullaah) include all of these categories that you mentioned in his work al-Isaabah?
Not sure... But he does list Qurra b. Hubayra.

[juwairiyah]

Assalamo'alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh

jazakAllahukhair bro

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

The hadith (of man in need) is rigorously authenticated sahih, as tabarani explicitly states in his al-mu'jam al-saghir. Also shaykh shuayb arnaut, who after examining the isnaad agreed that it was rigorously authenticated sahih as tabarani indicated. It was also confirmed by the moroccan hadith specialist sheikh abdullah muhammad ghimari. Note that haythami and mundhiri had exdxplicitly concurred with tabarani on its being rigorously authenticated sahih.


Akhi abu zubayr im not saying in challenge i was just like to know if there is a reply from other muhaditheen. Also akhi it just shows that uthman ibn affan radiallahu anhu was busy but at the end it shows he took care of the mans need and told him he can come back whenever he needs something.

So it doesnt belittle uthman radiallahu anhu.

Also akhi do we judge people like ash shawkani to be upon shirk for allowing tawassul via the Prophet salalahua layhi wa salam?



I remember that many times the so called traditional islam say that 'what salafis want us to believe is that our forefathers were upon a wrong path, that is why the salafis dont pray in accordance to the four madhahib and that is why they deny the aqidah of the majority of the ulama of islam'

[Break The Cross]

Is Shaykh Al Albanis book on Tawassul good?

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

salamu alaykum

I was reading some of it today. I find it to be a good book. If you read and ponder over each paragraph some of the arguments presented by the noble shaykh rahimullah are very good.

[Abu Hafsa]

Any chance of posting a link for Shaykh Albanis book on tawassul, i want to read it. May Allah bless you.

[Break The Cross]

Any chance of posting a link for Shaykh Albanis book on tawassul, i want to read it. May Allah bless you.

This is in pdf http://www.calgaryislam.com/imembers/pdf/manhaj/15.pdf

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

salamu alaykum

akhi abu zubayr would one be regarded as a kafir if one makes tawasul according to that hadith? Like go to the grave of the nabi salalahu alayhi wa salam and say O ALlah i turn to you through your Messenger salalahu alayhi wa salam , and then mention the need and ask the nabi salalahu alayhiw a salam to make dua for one.

and also from ones home saying Ya Allaah i turn to you in repentence through your prophet salalahu alayhiwa salam, O muhammad make dua for me. THen mention my need.

Is this kufr akbar?

If so then do we regard the ulama who allowed this to be upon kufr akbar?

Jazakallah khayr

[Abuz Zubair]

akhi abu zubayr would one be regarded as a kafir if one makes tawasul according to that hadith? Like go to the grave of the nabi salalahu alayhi wa salam and say O ALlah i turn to you through your Messenger salalahu alayhi wa salam , and then mention the need and ask the nabi salalahu alayhiw a salam to make dua for one.

Dear brother, please understand what exactly is Shirk and what is not Shirk at all but a bid'a, or merely a fiqhi difference of opinion.

It is elementary knowledge amongst Muslims that we pray to Allah alone. Anyone who prays to other than Allah is NOT a Muslim at all. This much, I think we would agree with.

Now, please tell me, a person praying to Allah saying: O Allah! Please accept my prayers by the right of your beloved Prophet!

Now, who is he praying to? If he is only praying to Allah, why on earth would it be Shirk?

But, if a person prays to other than Allah and says: 'O Prophet! Grant me refuge! forgive my sins!' Tell me, would this person, who is clearly praying to other than Allah, be considered a Muslim or a Mushrik?