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Madarijas-Salikeen
1st January 2007, 09:41 PM
Chapter 23
Part 3
The people of Tajheel

The Categories of Deviant people concerning the belief in Allaah and the last day

3. The people of Tajheel (the accusation of others as being jahl or ignorant): many of them try to associate themselves with the sunnah and the followers of the salaf.

The reality of the methodology is that whatever the Prophet salalahu alayhi wa salam has come with of the texts about Allaah's attributes they are mere unknown, incomprehensibe words. No one knows their meanings, not even the Prophet salalahu alayhi wa salam himself. He related many ahadeeth of the attributes yet he did not know their meanings!

On top of this, they also say that there is no place for the intellect when dealing with the attributes of Allaah. This statement of theirs means taht the Prophet salalahu alayhi wa salam nor his companions nor the imaams of the salaf had any intelectual knowledge and no revealed knowledge regarding this matter. this is from the most ridiculous of statements.

Their way in dealing with the attributes is to accept only their wordsings while believing their meanings are completely unknown. Some of them oppose one another saying that they are to be accepted upon their apparent meanings, yet along with a different interpretation that no one knows except Allah. this is an obvious contradiction, for if what is really intended is some other interpretation known only to Allaah, different from the apparent meaning of the text , then how could one accept them upon their apparent meaning?

Regarding teh way of these people, the sahykh (ibn taymiyah) rahimullah said in his book , al aql wal naql vol.1 page 121

"It is clear taht the statement of those who believe the meanigns are completely unknown- those who claim they follow the sunnah and the salaf it is one of the most evil statements of all the people of innovation and deviance."

The bogus proof these people (who say the meaning of the texts are unknown) use is the pause that most of the salaf make after the statement 'except Allaah' while reciting the ayah

"As for those in whose hearts is deviation, they follow that which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation (That suits them). ANd no one knwos its interepetation except Allah- and those firm in knoweldge say "we believe in it. All of it is from our Lord" (3:7)

(The point being made here is based on the fact that some of the salaf explained that the ayah could also be read as,
and no one knows its interpretation except Allah and those firm in knowledge. They say..." (indicating that Allah knows the interpretation as well as those firm in knowledge)

They make it clear themselves the erroenousness of this proof due to two reasons:

Firstly: they assert taht the aayaat of the attributes are from the unspecific texts.

Secondly: they also assert that the interpretation mentioned int eh ayah is changing the word's apparent meaning to a different meaning that contradcits it. The result is that all of the aayaat dealing with the attributes have meanings that contradict their APPARENT ONES and no one knows them except Allah.

Refuting this group is by the following points

First, we ask them what they mean by unspecific by which they refer to all of the ayaat of the attribnutes. do they mean the meaning is unspecific and hidden or do they mean that the actuality of HOW the attributes are is unspecific?

If they mean the first meaning- which is in fact what they mean then the ayaat of the attributes are not from this type because their meanings are clear and apparent. If what they were to mean is the second meaning, then it is true that the ayaat are of this type. this is because no one knows the ACTUALITY of the attributes and how they are except Allah. This being said, it is not correct to refer to the ayaat of the attributes as being unspecific as mentioned in teh ayah above. rather, the previously mentioned details must be kept in mind.

Second, by them saying that the interpretation mentioned in the ayah is changing the wrods apparent meaning to a different meaning that CONTRADICTS it; it is not correct. this si a new definition to interpetation as mentioned int eh ayah. neither the arabs in general, nor the sahabah among whom the Quran was revealed in THEIR LANGUAGE knew this to be the intended meaning. On the contrary what was well known to them is that this interpreatation could have two meanings.


1- what is meant is the explanation, and the itnerpretation in this way was known to those possessing strong knowledge, such as ibn abbas who said ("I am one of those firm in knowledge who know its interpretation ) tafseer ibn katheer 1\348

Upon this meaning, many of the salaf paused reciting after, except Allah and those firm in knowledge- from the previous ayah.

2. what also could be meant is the ACTUALITY of something and its end result or outcome. upon this meaning, the interpreation of what Allah has informed us about himself, and regardingt he last day is not actually known to us. the interpretation int his way is the actuality and HOW HIS attributes and the last day reallya re- this is unknown to us as imaam malik and others have said regarding the istiwaa and otehr such issues. upon this meaning, most of the salaf hold the pause in the recitation of the aforementioned ayah to be, "and no one knows its interpretation except Allah"

The third point in refuting these poeple is that Allah revaeled the Quran for it to be pondered over. He encouraged us to reflect upon it in entirety , making no exception with thee ayaat of the attributes. the encouragement to reflect upon it means that it is possible to arrive at its intended meanings; otherwise, it would be meaningless to reflect upon it. POndering upon something means to gain more than empty speech the speech of Allah and His Messenger salalahu alayhi wa salam are far above this. The encourragement is to reflect upon all of it with no exceptions. THis shows that the aayaat of the attributes have real meanings and it is possible to reach them by reflecting upon them. the closest of people in the understanding of the meanings are the PRophet salalahua layhi wa salam and His sahabah. The quran was revealed in their language and they were the first people to refelect upon it, especially upont he most important part of the religion knowing allah and his attributes.

Aboo abdur rahman as salamee said Those who used to read the quran upon uthmaan ibn afaan , abdullah ibn masood, and otehrs narrated to us that wheneve they used to learn the ayaat from the Prophet salalahu alayhi wa salam theyw ould not move on past them until they learnt them and what they contained of knowledge and action we learned the quran knowledge and action at the same time.

qadri
1st January 2007, 10:57 PM
Jahmi influenced propagandists should memorize the following text:

Al-Haafidh Taqee ud-Deen Abu Muhammad Abdul-Ghaniyy al-Maqdisee (d. 600H) - may Allaah have mercy upon him - said: "And know - may Allaah have mercy upon you - that Islaam and its people are attacked and destroyed by three groupings:

1) A group who reject the ahaadeeth pertaining to the Attributes of Allaah and who reject their narrators. They are more harmful to Islaam and its adherents than the Disbelievers.

2) A group who speak with the authenticity of these ahaadeeth and accept them, but they perform Ta'weel (figurative interpolation) of them. They are mightier in their harm than the first group.

3) And the third group, those who avoid the above two sayings, and begin - as they claim - to purify Allaah from all imperfections (tanzeeh) - but in fact they are liars, and this leads them to the very same above two sayings. So they are more harmful than the first two groups."

.....read more here : http://www.allaahuakbar.net/individual_callers/nuh_ha_mim/a_reply_to_a_jahmee.htm ....

inshallah, after reading then " Ahlus Sunnah" , "aMuslim4Life", "Faqir", "Abul Hasan", "Abu Hasan", "Salman" and their likes can visit this site: http://www.beconvinced.com/
and inshallah you will be convinced of the Sunni Islam.

Madarijas-Salikeen
1st January 2007, 11:07 PM
Akhi im not ashari, why is it you keep thinking that? I made it pretty clear. I was just showing views from ashari, maturidi, and salafi views im finding truth myself searching. im not yet convinced fully of anyside .

Madarijas-Salikeen
1st January 2007, 11:13 PM
By the way your suggesting im upon kufr, (though no where i have ever indicated such ) this shows you have some ideology of the khawarij and Akhi I would beat the hell out of you. You would be so lightheaded you would spin in circles like a sufi

abu-usaama
1st January 2007, 11:20 PM
qadri akhi,

this post that brother ahlul sunnah posted is a post from a book by ibn uthaymeen rahimahullah. The chapter is supposed to refute the people who believe in 'tafwidh al ma'ana'. I dont see anything wrong with the post.

Simply because someone is confused u shouldnt accuse him of kufr if thats what was meant. and if thats not what was meant then forgive me inshallah.

Abu-Usaama

qadri
1st January 2007, 11:43 PM
sorry abuusamah & ahlus sunnah what-ever-who-ever , these tricks and games are old ones. Posting under different nicks but with the same propaganda -- sometimes posting sunni material to deceive the readers, etc etc.. won't work here.


Because in reality we cannot come up with a meaning that we affirm because we cant say we affirm a hand with flesh bone fingers nerves etc..

so what is the hand we affirm? Arent we forced to make tafwid


in short, i don't know which Sunni Scholar said that Jahmis were Sunni Muslims.

Was it Zahid al-Kawthari al-Ashari (Imam of Keller, Kabbani, GF Haddad,) who said Jahmis are Muslims ?
or was it Abdullah Habashi al-Ashari ?

I wonder who declared Jahmis to be Sunni Muslims ?!

does this sound familiar

Na'am akhi i just dont know how to respond to one who says that if we affirm hand for Allah then what exactly is the hand that we affirm for Allah . They ask us this and then belittle us by saying that we dont know what hand we are ascribing to allah so therefore we must make tafweed manawiyah

qadri
1st January 2007, 11:50 PM
the only ones confused or unable to answer on sifat al-yadd are the Jahmis and their brethren in faith like the Kullabi Asharites / Maturidi Barelwis / Qadiyanis / Mutazilites...

Sunnis know the answer.. the answer is quite clear...

why is ahlus sunnah & co (aMuslim4life etc..) are having hard time understanding ?

Does this remind you of how the Jahmis and Mutazilites (Kullabi Asharites) used to debate and argue with Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah in the past.

Now, Jahmites have returned back but with a slightly different name. They call themselves Asharis or Maturidis.


The Aqida of real Asharites like Baqillani / ibn Asakir / ibn Furak / Shahrastani is totally different then the likes of Nuh Keller / Kawthari / Kabbani / Abdullah al-Habashi / Gulam Ahmad Qadiyani / Ahmed Rida Khan Barelwi / Saeed Fudah / Hasan Ali Saqqaf / etc etc

Madarijas-Salikeen
2nd January 2007, 12:22 AM
why am i having a hard time understanding? Because it is a big fitnah divided even amongst the ulama of ahlus sunnah. The likes of big scholars of classical times. Shaykh ul islam nawawi (he was known as shaykh ul islam) ibn hajr asqalani, adh dhahabi and others but when im confused you make takfir on me.

Such adab perhaps you learned that from abu khadijah

Madarijas-Salikeen
3rd January 2007, 07:47 PM
Qadri this is what i believe

Stated al-khateeb baghdaadee d.463h said, " So the basic principle (asl) is that speech about the attributes is speech about the essence (dhaat) of Allah, so it follows it in that and takes it as a model of example. So when it is known that the affirmation of the Lord of the worlds, the mighty and majestic, is affirmation of existence, then likewise, affirmation of His attributes is only an affirmation of existence, not an affirmation of limitation (tahdeed) and modality (takyeef). So when we say, "Allah has a hand, hearing and seeing,' then these are only attributes that Allah has affirmed for Himself. And we do not say that the meaning of Hand is POWER, nor do we say that the meaning of hearing and Seeing is knowledge. And we do not say that THESE are bodily limbs and tools to perform actions. Rather, we say that it is obligatory to affirm them, but to make tawqeef (stopping at the text of the book and the sunnah) of what is mentioned concerning them." Refer to Dhammut-Ta'weel no.15 of ibn qudamah and al uluww p.185 of adh-Dhahabi)

Just like aqidah tahawiyah that Allah is not made up of limbs and that His Yad is not His Qudra or His Nimah (just like fiqh al akbar affirms)

AbuNaim
29th October 2008, 09:20 PM
Mawlana Ashraf Ali Thanawi said in his furu-ul-iman;

-------------------------------
Admonition No.1

It should be known that as Allah Ta’ala is unique and unparalleled in His Essence, so is He unparaelled and unique in His Attributes. Therefore, it is very dangerous to talk about His Attributes by using imagination and specify their different states and causations. In this regard the Aqaids (Beliefs) of majority of common muslims are safe as they believe in the Sifaat (Attributes) of Allah Ta’ala in general and do not bother to go in their finer details. Sahabah al-kiram and Salaaf as saliheen (radiallahu anhum) also used to believe in the same way. Later on, when innovators [Ahle-bidat] those who incorporated new things in Islam, which were not in Islam increased in number, Scholastic philosophy (ilm-e-kalam) came in to being. At this stage people talked more about the attributes of Allah which in turn led to carelessness in the law suits and other Ahkaam of Shari’ah.

For instances, Allah Ta’ala says in Qur’an:

“The Most Gracious is Firmly Established on the Throne”

Now to try to make inquiries about the word “Istawa”, what is meant by it? and what are its different interpretations? Is really a job of great courage when one does not know the reality of one’s own attributes, how can he know the attributes of the Creator (of all worlds).

One should, simply believe that whatever has been said [by Allah and His Messenger, Rasulullah salalahu alayhi wa salam] is the absolute reality and that His “Istawa” will be like His essence, His existence (As His existence, essence is unique and unparalleled and impossible to appreciate in this world, as is His essence unique, so is His “Istawa” also unique, unparalleled and impossible to appreciate as it is). What is the need to make inquiries about it when it is neitehr our entrusted duty nor will we be asked about it. Of course, one should certainly believe that “Istawa” will not be like our “Istawa”, as Allah Ta’ala says:

“There is nothing whatsoever like Him”

Now question remains that how is this “Istawa”, one is not to argue about it. It should be left to Allah.

Similarly, in a Hadith it is narrated:

“Our cherisher (Allah Ta’ala) descends towards the sky, which is immediately above the world, every night.”

Now one will start thinking what is meant by this descent (nazool) (as Allah Ta’ala is everywhere with His Knowledge) how does it take place? The purpose of Rasulullah salalahu alayhi wa salam in informing the Ummat about this is first to make the people to engage in thikr and ibadaat of Allah Ta’ala with eagerness and fervour and presence of mind during this time. One should try to do the same during this time (in which Allah Ta’ala makes descent towards the Asman-e-Dunya), otherwise one will waste his whole life and will never be able to know the reality of things

“No one knows this realty.

Everyone is dying without knowing it”

Allah Ta’ala says:

“But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not entirely clear, seeking discord and searching for it interpretation.” (3:7)

Abu Ikrimah
29th October 2008, 09:27 PM
Akhi I would beat the hell out of you.

Let's not forget that we are all brothers and sisters here.

BTW, this does not mean that I condone the fact that the brother is accusing you of kufr, as I certainly don't.

May Allah forgive us all.

Madarijas-Salikeen
29th October 2008, 10:47 PM
Yes brother I am sorry. I have been working on leaving anger and focusing on being present in the face of agravation. Jazakallah khayr

Adeel
30th October 2008, 08:16 PM
Abu Naim,

What is the name of the book of Thanvi on Kalam?

Abu Ikrimah
30th October 2008, 08:42 PM
Yes brother I am sorry. I have been working on leaving anger and focusing on being present in the face of agravation. Jazakallah khayr

wa iyyaak!

No need to apologise, inshallah - and no harm done.

AbuNaim
30th October 2008, 11:10 PM
Abu Naim,

What is the name of the book of Thanvi on Kalam?


Which kalaam book?

Madarijas-Salikeen
30th October 2008, 11:15 PM
as salamu alaykum,

I think he means Furu ul iman

Adeel
30th October 2008, 11:19 PM
Which kalaam book?

I meant Ilmul kalam.

AbuNaim
30th October 2008, 11:35 PM
I meant Ilmul kalam.

I dont whether he has a book on that although he has more than 1000 works...

abu imaan an-nepalee
31st October 2008, 09:29 AM
^I think the brother was actually referring to the book furu al-Imaan as a book of 'ilm al-kalaam? :)

AbuNaim
31st October 2008, 10:27 AM
^I think the brother was actually referring to the book furu al-Imaan as a book of 'ilm al-kalaam? :)

Here is it:

http://www.onlineislamicstore.com/b1875.html

http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/islamicbookstore-com_2026_2114557718

Madarijas-Salikeen
31st October 2008, 11:19 AM
as salaamu alaykum,

yes and that book furu ul iman is not about kalam. It just mentions briefly about attributes. Interesting to note how he states that Istiwa is like Allah's essence. This is what we believe. Istiwa is unlike the creation :) that is our creed.

wasalaam