Abuz Zubair, what happend to the unity of HT?

[asharee_salafi]

Salaams Abuz zubair,

You might be aware of this slanderous documentary on channel 4, I think I will actually complain against it, the amount of cuts in it were ludicrous.

But one thing I would like to ask you is this :

why has HT kept silent in all this and not defended the sunnis, despite our sectarian diffrences with them? why is there no 'Dr Imran Waheed says....' with regards to that documentary?

See what I mean now about HT just looking after their own group, you might be falling in the same kind of jimas camp, how far has as unity benefitted with people like hamaza yusuf, have they fulfilled the conditions of unity? in time sof unity, why havent they stopped attacking the hanbalite creed?

[sultanmuradII]

You can comment on their discussion forum where the following thread has started regarding the Ch4 Dispatches programme:

http://www.hizbuttahrir.org/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=4749#4749

[Abu Faaris As-Sumalee]

Im sorry habibi, but i clicked on the link you provided and read a post by a guy called ABDUL-'ALI, so are you sure its the right website ?, maybe you linked me to one of those interfaith sites.

[Husain]

Im sorry habibi, but i clicked on the link you provided and read a post by a guy called ABDUL-'ALI, so are you sure its the right website ?, maybe you linked me to one of those interfaith sites.
I didn't get it. What's your point?

- Husain.

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

that is the site of the real ht, not HTB.

I emailed HTB but no response yet.


Also remember a discussion thread is different to a joint public radd to show unity to protect muslims and more fundamentally agreed upon matters of the deen!

abdul-ali is a brother from the site, I think he might mean 'ala? i.e. 'abdal-'ala?
wa ALLAHU Musta'an

[Shaghuri]

erm, al-Ali is one of Allahs names: Wa Huwa al-Ali al-Adhim. If the brothers name was slave of Ali, it would be Abd Ali without the alif lam

[ibnYaseen]

Alhamdulilah, the silence of HTB can speak volumes. Many muslims defended, or at the least sympathised, with HT when they were attacked in the national media. HT certainly exerted full effort, energy, blood, sweat and tears to defend their precious hizb. This time, ISLAM, has been attacked; the words of RasoolAllah (saw) and ayat of the Qur'aan.

And the HT have remained silent.

Alhamdulilah, their inaction should illustrate much for us about their hizb.

[Abu Faaris As-Sumalee]

abdul-ali is a brother from the site, I think he might mean 'ala? i.e. 'abdal-'ala?


Barakallahu feeka , that explains it.

So i guess none of you have ever been to north yemen, right ?.

Asalamu 'Alaykum wa rahmatullah

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

Alhamdulilah, the silence of HTB can speak volumes. Many muslims defended, or at the least sympathised, with HT when they were attacked in the national media. HT certainly exerted full effort, energy, blood, sweat and tears to defend their precious hizb. This time, ISLAM, has been attacked; the words of RasoolAllah (saw) and ayat of the Qur'aan.

And the HT have remained silent.

Alhamdulilah, their inaction should illustrate much for us about their hizb.


inside me I am split.

One half wants ht and other groups who are in the media boasting their stuff to come together and defend Islam as a show of unity for the muslims regardless of their "group loyalties" rather for the loyalty of Islam. This would really change my preception of HT,mpacuk, etc if they did that

The other half doesn't want them to say anything because it would then show the salafis and others just how one dimensional their call for unity is and so must set about taking the forefront of the affairs of muslims and not get bogged-down with another group's agenda for "unity" rather go about setting out true unity.

how many people spoke in favor for htb to support them even with the differences! it isn't about payback rather it is about practising what you preach!

I prefer the first half but I fear second is the reality but that still has some benefits for the true salafi da'wah innsha'ALLAH

Wa ALLAHU A'lam

[abuzakarya]

As-salamu alaykum. Brother Abuz Zubair, you probably won't have had the misfortune of seeing this appalling Channel 4 programme but I think if you did, bro, I think you might be wanting to retract that statement of yours from our Hijrah discussion that the UK is the best place in the world to practise Islam! One of the local imams in South London also just got kicked out this week after an article appeared in the Daily Mail that he criticised Tony Blair in his khutbahs. So who are the vegetables now? He (the sacked imam) had also been in an HT major South London event as a speaker - where are HT now in his hour of need? Where is the "unity"? This deception has now become apparent - at least that has now come out as one positive thing. Insha'allah, due to the pressure being applied on HT, they might finally reciprocate the support the likes of Sheikh Haytham gave them when they were in trouble but don't hold your breath.

[Abuz Zubair]

SubhanAllah... brothers seek refuge in Allah from cowardice, pessimism and defeated mentality. Weak personalities never achieve anything for themselves let alone others.

Things are getting bad in the UK? Of course they are! They are supposed to get bad! This is how our ancestors made history, and this is how we will make history, too.

What do you think Islam is about? A bed of roses?!

As for HTs not taking the initiative in the recent fiasco, why should they? When HTs are under fire, they take the initiative because they are organised enough to do so and they have the resources. The Salafis, you cannot even get them into a team of four people to work on a project! And of course, they are supposed to take the initiative to defend themselves, and during the process, if they approach HT, I guarantee that they would stick up for you. This HAS happened in the past which has further increased my respect for them.

People need to leave the internet world for a bit and mix with the grassroot active people more and see what various people are really about.

[AbuAhmad]

I hear a lot about exteremism in the UK. Then I hear the preachers and they say things that no Muslim would say or even believe in. I really do think these are fake Muslims hired by the british government to give Islam a bad name.

Why can't Muslims there expose the hyprocrites first? Modernists aren't the only hypocrities (who suck as pretending to be Muslims) but also people who learn a few Quranic verses here and there, crash rallies, and threaten the kuffar with explicit statements and these people stay out of jails!

While those who utter statements that are hardly offending to kuffar such as detailing Muslim belief on Jihad etc, then these people are tried as threats to National security and they end up in jails, get deported, and tortured overseas.

So why are some British exteremists personalities outside jails? I wonder... Maybe you brothers there can start suing these hyprocrities.

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

i would say that if a people call for unity with others and they say this is the need of the time, then whoever it is,HTB, mpacuk, salafies, etc have that duty to be consistent.

What is highlighted by many muslims now, in light of the dispatches programme is that it is evident that only when a group - and i don't only mean htb but everyone - see benefit for themselves will they seek to work on "unifying to defend Islam against the latest media onslaught",if that benefit is not appparent then forget it.

This is the biggest shame. People cannot under estimate the impact of this programme on the preception of Islam. I have just finished a long discussion with my family trying to clear up the rubbish they showed i.e. the way the conveniently edited things to mean another.

So this is why it makes it so sad that groups like HTB do not help take a stand, or the salafis approach HTB and other groups to work together on this. Brother Abu Usamah did a video response and it was good maasha'ALLAH, however It would be more productive for the muslims to come together to deal with this and bring forth the concepts discussed in the programme in their true context and then let us engage with the British community in dialougue discussion and debate.


Yes it is about how a group can organise itself. It is about how a particular group organises themselves for themselves,but should we not be trying to organise for the sake of Islam and the muslims, and this would obviously involve us disregarding the differences we have with eachother and coming forth in eachother's defence. Such an act should be a natural reaction and not be required for people to approach another to defend them, especially when they carry certain clout in the media i.e. are well known.

And was this not the reaction of the ummah when HTB were threatened with proscribement?

Was this not the response by muslims when Newsnight recently did a rubbish programme on ht and criminality links?


Infact isn't this the sadest fact of it all? That indeed it is the ummah that are the ones who are not hesitant and HTB are hesitant.

Saying this, HTB are not obliged to say anything, but for Islam to be shown in such a way and for one not to feel obliged, then that one should not feel obliged to try and lead the muslims and seek to take the lead in protecting the deen against such attacks.

And we are not worthy of protecting and leading ourselves if we also do not seek to defend muslims we disagree with like htb, mpacuk, alm etc in exactly the same way

wa ALLAHU a'lam

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

as-salaamu 'alaikum

in case this hasn't been posted before, here is a response from shaykh yaasir qadhi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwx7S8ugFcs)

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

as-salaamu 'alaikum

in case this hasn't been posted before, here is a response from shaykh yaasir qadhi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwx7S8ugFcs)

walaikum as-salaam

jazakALLAHU Khairan bro

been looking for that!

[asharee_salafi]

I hate to sound rude to you abuz zubair, but sometimes this logic with regards to HT really baffles me,

okay, salafees are disorganized, but brother, it seems you want to complain more rather then do anything about it? and why not sort some salfee issues out liek writing an article on salafiyyah?

the point has not been anwered, ht have NOT replied to any accusations put forth to the above mentioned, why not?
your claim that they have to be approached first is bizzarre! is their is unity pact i.e you scrath my back i will scratch yours, then ht don;t have to be asked, and besides which they have been asked upon their silence and they have not replie dat all! ( clearly they don't want to look extreme or side with any salafi because of the wahabi element)

besides, their help to ahl sunnah is full of conditions , theyw ould make it an ht event, a way to make their group look good and recruit salafees,
we should be setting them the conditions, not the otherw ay round, conditions of unity must be fulfilled, unfortuantely, people have used emotion rather then good ration in these issues
as for the few time swhne they have stuck up for sunnis, then yes, maybe that has been teh case, and i think i might know whom yourtalking bout, BUT you fail to understand this, certain times they have commented, its only been on individuals or are perceived not to be extreme, thats why they would give some words about that individual / (S) , and this again is your failure tos ee that ht dont want to be regarded as an extremeist group, rather they want to NOW be known as moderates, along with their voting U turns

[Brother_Mujahid]

Well to the credit of MPACUK, they did attempt to help Abu Usamah adh-Dhahabi by giving him a chance to answer the charges against him. As for Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain, well hopefully they will come out and say something, but I am not holding my breath.

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

i think that even if we really despise the actions of certain groups like htb only taknig care of themselves under the false notion of "unity" the situation is so grave that we should discuss with them sincerely in way where they will understand the importance that when they were being threatened with proscribement, they argued it was actually to silence Islam and they were the "excuse" the goverment used for this. So they argued that if we as a community did not stand againt this then it was us all being proscribed. And they did not need to tell us this.

Yet how about now? We should look at it in the same light. And that is why maybe I think the approach of "hah! caught you out" though it can be appealing to all of us who know what HT are about when it comes to unity (i.e. they are in it for themselves) to show the masses it should be of concern to us all of just how this "unity" thing is with muslims in the U.K.

Alhamdulillah some of the discussions we can have with muslims and non-muslims can be fruitful in dispelling propaganda,and the videos can help with clarification are good maasha'ALLAH

I think abuz zubair did highlight another good point about how organised (or disorganised) the salafis are. However we know some salafis would consider others as mubtadi'een and have already made bara' from anyone other than themselves. So we can't be surprised.

So lets us discuss what can we do? far enough the HTB point is made and to be honest it serves as a warning for the salafis and others that on one side, 'ash'aris like abdul-hakim murad can appear on a programme which blatantly attacks and mis-represents Islam all because of his hate for "wahabis" and the salafis.

And we have HTB who don't want to act according to what they preach and only will call for unity if they feel proscribement is nearing them or newsnight or another media outlet do some dodgy investigative journalism on them.

Ok, so now it seems we have MCB and MPACUK who helped out, alhamdulillah. So now what else can the salafis do to organise themselves to aide in dispelling this and any future propaganda and work towards representing and presenting the correct Islam to muslims and non-muslims?

lets us now try and focus on this and related issues, and leave htb and sufi "wish we were muslim" council to their own devices.

wa ALLAHU Musta'an

[Abuz Zubair]

Well said, Abu Iman...

One of the things we should remember is that the reason we have so many arguments and disagreements is because we do not engage in any fruitful Islamic work.

For if we were to actually go out of our way, take the initiative and liaise with people from different backgrounds, in an effort to bring about change, our opinions about many people will change, especially those who we have hardly interacted with on a higher level.

[jinnzaman]

If a Sufi or Ashari/Maturidi scholar had been attacked, would any of you have defended him?

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

If a Sufi or Ashari/Maturidi scholar had been attacked, would any of you have defended him?

most definitely especially if they are attacking Islam in the process! Hasn't this been done before? We do not let our differences interfere with other aspects of brotherhood. We may not agree, or even like eachother but does that mean we feed eachother to the dogs?

You will be surprised at how many salafis work together with 'ash'aris and maturidis here in U.K., however I would say more of the deobandi type maturidis, than 'ash'aris. Wa ALLAHU A'lam

But the 'ash'ari "shaykh" abdul-hakim murad doesn't care. He saw it fit to go on a programme which attacked agreed upon issues and try to fan the fire by attaking "wahabis" basically protraying what these "wahabis" were saying as tantamount to "fundamentalism from saudi" a'udhubillahi min dhalik!

watch the programme on the links, if the points raised were not distorted or you disagree with them from the 'ash'ari maturidi side then tell us why. personally this is an attack on islam fanning Islamaphobia in the U.K. and those so-called "muslims" who partook in it should be ashamed for their political nievety.

wa ALLAHU Musta'an

anyway on a side note I see this:



By attacking Shariah, Cameron plays cheap politics with community relations

London, UK, January 29 2007 – In a speech today in the Lozells area of Birmingham, the Conservative leader David Cameron, said that "those who seek a Sharia state, or special treatment and a separate law for British Muslims are, in many ways, the mirror image of the BNP." In his speech, Cameron postulated that there were five barriers dividing society - uncontrolled immigration, extremism, multiculturalism, poverty and "educational apartheid".
His speech was made on the same day that the Policy Exchange thinktank suggested support for Shariah law, Islamic schools and wearing the veil was much stronger among younger Muslims in Britain, than amongst their parents. The Policy Exchange report also reported that there has been a "rapid rise in Islamic fundamentalism amongst the younger generation".

Commenting on this, Dr Imran Waheed, media representative of Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain, said, "David Cameron is guilty of scaremongering when he claims that there are Muslims advocating Shariah law in Britain or demanding 'special treatment'. Like Blair, he speaks at length of community cohesion without mentioning the damage caused to community relations by the colonialist interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan which he supports. It appears that both Blair and Cameron want to play cheap politics with community relations rather than accept the real grievances of millions opposed to Western colonialism in the Muslim world."

"The increased adherence to Islam by Muslims in Britain and their desire to see the Shariah implemented in the Muslim world through the return of the Caliphate are not evidence of a 'rapid rise of fundamentalism' but reflect the tide of global Islamic resurgence which rejects the imperialist era of Western backed dictators and brutal occupation in the Muslim world. Labelling this resurgence, which will reclaim the political destiny of the Muslim world, as a threat to community relations is consistent with the British Government's desire to equate the widely shared aspiration for the Shariah and the Caliphate in the Muslim world with 'radicalisation' or 'terrorism'."

http://www.hizb.org.uk/hizb/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=889&Itemid=112

on a personal note I know shabab are disgusted with the programme, but as a political entity they are not concerned about attacks on Islam in the general sense especially when it involves "wahabis" thus their silence on the despatches programme. Let all those who care for a sincere for of unity take note and beware.

And know the believer does not get bitten from the same hole twice!

wa ALLAHU Musta'an!

[Abuz Zubair]

I wonder if anyone has spoken with any of the HT leadership about this?

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

i emailed them and another brother contacted the main guy in his area to do something together. but no response for me and the other bro couldn't do anything in the name of htb

[Abuz Zubair]

You don't live that far from one particular leading HT... why don't you approach him and see what he says ?;)

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

hey you! ;)

You know what bro, I think it should be first upon those who were directly attacked to see this as a wake up call and start the band of unity. And then when the salafis have done that HTB, MPACUK, i guess can work with the salafis in a more constructive way. innsha'ALLAH.

And also there are so many other things like the new policy exchange paper out check: http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=2818
that the dispatches programme is just one of many things. It not forgotten but it not exactly priority now.

I think though the situation was a wake up call for all. 1-The salafis need to sort it out, and 2-The HTB and others etc who seek "unity" need to seek this without agendas or turning a blind eye

wa ALLAHU A'lam

[abuzakarya]

As-salamu alaykum. Some of you are missing the point. HT claim to stand for Muslim unity regardless of sect, madhab, etc. If this were true, they would defend the likes of Abu Usaamah, Sheikh Suhaib and others whom Dispatches attacked. The fact that they did not respond on their websites or to emails sent to them shows that they are actually completely deceiving the Muslims. The point is not that anyone needs HT's help to defend themselves - actually they've done that most effectively already - the point is that HT claims about calling for unity are nothing but deception and they are actually leading Muslims down a path of destruction whereby they will take leadership of the British Muslims.

The sad thing is that brother Abuz Zubair, you have become infatuated with HT's supposed organisational skills because you have no inside information about them. If only you knew their internal feuds and hatred and chaos, you would not be so complimentary about them. The real issue though is that you have no right to talk about how things are in the UK because you don't even live here. You have no idea what it is like to be here right now and yet you see fit to comment on the situation. Brothers like myself are a lot older than you and we have been down all the roads you think will lead us to salvation in the West. If we were to follow your stream of thought, HT will appoint an amir over the UK Muslims and you will be the first to pledge your allegiance. Then they will stab you in the back like they have stabbed others who have disagreed with them and stood in their way. The Islam that will emerge from your vision is one which is confused and diluted and you will look back and hold your head in your hands and rue the day you did not listen to those with more experience than you.

What we really need is a public debate amongst Muslims on these issues. It is easy for you to publish articles on your website but you need to be questioned about your vision for Islam in the West. Perhaps your wake-up call will come when you come back and you find yourself harrassed by the UK's secret police teams, your phone tapped and watched at every step, people throwing coins and spitting at your wife and children. Things are now worse here for Muslims than they were for the Muslims in the days of the Ba'athi-style mukhabaraat in Muslim countries. We cannot engage or reach out as you believe sitting in the comfort of a Muslim country. This is not the time to allow HT and the deviant sects to have the upper hand. By all means stand together with the Muslims of all persuasions but this silence (or worse, praise) about HT will spell the end for pure Islam in the UK. Maybe we can talk after you've had a cavity search at Heathrow airport - that's assuming you don't go staright to jail when you come back!