What can a person do if.. [Archive]

Abdullah al-Shishani

20th January 2007, 07:21 PM

Hi,

I have a question to the board.

Me and some friends has discussed what to do if we want to convert away from Islam, either into another religion, or beeing an atheist.

best regards
Mika

When you are becoming a muslim, you are getting into a contract of a kind. You take on the responsibility of obeying God, according to your ability, on at least the 5 pillars, and God takes it upon Himself to Grant you Paradise, to Forgive your shortcomings, to Guide you according to your own striving to be guided. Since this is not a simple contract which is to do with some sum of money, or some goods, and since this contract is between a human and the Creator of all that Exists, breaking the contract, will entail proportional fines. In an Islamic country, a person that openly becomes an apostate, is given a few days to think over, and if he is stubborn, he is to be executed. Now, in reality, this takes place very rarely, just as the stoning of the formerly married adulterers, because for this to take place, there have to be 4 witnesses who had witnessed the act of immorality. In fact, there is not a single recorded case of this happing in Islamic history.

By the way, I think this is the same in christianity and judaism. Similarly, today in europe, if you dont believe in holocaust, or if you doubt the numbers, it is a crime for which you could be imprisoned.

Umm Ahmed

20th January 2007, 11:23 PM

Abu Faaris As-Sumalee

21st January 2007, 12:47 AM

Hi Mika , can you tell us if you are a muslim or not ?

Thanks

:D .........

mika

23rd January 2007, 11:21 PM

Umm Ahmed

24th January 2007, 06:19 AM

Hi Mika .

If one was to leave Islam as Abdullah as shishani pointed out there is a punishment for that , wither your in a muslim country or not , the punishment remains the same and on top of that you will be earning Allaahs anger so your not safe at all.
64:7, "The Unbelievers think that they will not be raised up (for Judgement). Say: 'Yea, by my Lord, Ye shall surely be Raised up: then shall ye Be told (the truth) of All that ye did. And that is easy for Allah.'"

Islam teaches that a newborn has an innate ability to know and believe in his creator, and to understand good and evil. Muhammad (pbuh) stated: "Every child is born with the believing nature...it is his parents who make him into a Jew or a Christian." There is to be no force used to convert a non-believer to Islam. The Qur'ãn, , prohibits the use of compulsion to force a person or a society to accept Islam."Let there be no compulsion in the religion: Surely the Right Path is clearly distinct from the crooked path." Al Baqarah, 2:256.

However, once a person freely "enters into the fold of Islam, the rules change." The word "Islaam" means "submission to the will of God." The Qur'ãn says that: "No believing man and no believing woman has a choice in their own affairs when Allaah and His Messenger have decided on an issue." (33:36)On the issue of apostasy, "Islaam clearly says: No! You cannot become an apostate.It is the most abhorrent of sins
Islam is the only religion Allaah accepts from His slaves and the only religion He ordered His slaves to follow.

'Abd al-Kareem

24th January 2007, 12:19 PM

Assalamu 'alaikum

I'm sorry to hear that. But know this: Once you leave Islam, there is no coming back. Even if you spend the rest of your life fighting for the sake of Allah and die on that path, it will not be accepted of you.
So think it over before you make any rash decisions. And get new friends.

morbius

24th January 2007, 01:25 PM

Dear Abdullah as-Shishani,

Thank you very much for your answer.
As I read you answer, in a Islamic contry, there would proberly be consequences by turning away from Islam, but in europe (from where I live) it can be safe to convert away from Islam it, is that correct?
The reason that I ask is that I see that Christians here in Europe can convert away from christianity, if they want, and we really start to symphasize with that view on religion, meaning that people have to make its own choise in life without beeing forced by others, do you agree?
Freedom of religion is one of the cornerstones of our European society. Everyone is allowed to choose his religion based his own personal choice.

If you want to change your religion, it is perfectly legal here. However, such choice should not be made without careful consideration. And I would advise anyone against changing religion before he/she reaches maturity.

mika

24th January 2007, 05:02 PM

Dear Umm-Ahmed,

Thank you very much for your answer.

In the meantime, I do not quit understand what you are saying:

Quote: wither your in a muslim country or not , the punishment remains the same and on top of that you will be earning Allaahs anger so your not safe at all.

What do you mean by that I understand that a person will be earning Allaahs anger, but what additional punishment can be expected?

Also, as Morbious writes, freedom of religion is very important in Europe, don't you think that this thinking should be adapted by Muslims living outside the Muslim world?

Best regards
Mika

Umm Ahmed

24th January 2007, 09:21 PM

What I meant is that the punishment remains the same even if your in a non muslim country , just that its not carried out . Abdullah as-Shishani already stated that the person has to be executed and in your post numbered 3 you also stated that you know there would be consequences.

I have already stated in my previous post what the stand is on freedom of religion , no one is to be forced to become a muslim , but leaving the fold of Islam is apostacy is a major sin. The muslim world is the whole of this earth we cant ignore parts of our faith because we are the minority , though in reality we dont have the authority to implement the sharia in certain areas .

mika

24th January 2007, 11:29 PM

Dear Umm-Ahmed,

Thank you very much for your answer.

Please correct me, but from what I hear you say is that if somebody want to convert away from Islam, into another religion, in Europe, the punisment will come from Allah alone, after this life, but no punishment will be carried out by humans since since this will be ileagal in Europe? Is that correct?

Sorry for all my questions, I just want to be sure that I understand this fully?

Best regards
Mika

Abuz Zubair

25th January 2007, 01:12 AM

but no punishment will be carried out by humans since since this will be ileagal in Europe? Is that correct?

You are right, because the citizens in Europe fall beyond Islamic jurisdictions.

We need to understand a few things about the nature of Islam before understanding capital punishments for certain crimes such as apostasy.

Firstly, Islam is not just a religion. It is also a powerful political movement, which still maintains its control over a huge population of the world.

Secondly, even if there isn't an Islamic state, the Muslims are also considered a part of one global nation, merely on the basis of their faith.

Thirdly, apostasy from Islam is considered a capital offence, tantamount to treason in many Western countries.

The objections people raise to this is supposedly lack of religious freedom.

However, what we often fail to realise is that there is no hard and fast rule defining what exactly religion is or isn't, or what exactly 'freedom' is, let alone what it means when 'religion' is placed next to 'freedom'.

For instance, many would like to describe Islam as a religion, which it is, but as the term is understood, they fail to see the strong political side of Islam. On the other hand, secularism is conveniently defined as a political thought, whereas if we see its effects on religious minorities in France and Turkey, secularism emerges as a new theocracy, for it behaves in exactly the same way, even if it is not a 'religion' (in a narrowly defined word)

Freedom is another example, where we are all now familiar with the vagueness of the term. In fact, our history for the past few centuries has always been that of Western freedom infringing on Eastern freedom.

The vagueness is multiplied when we place 'religion' next to 'freedom'.

However, the fact we should all acknowledge that 'religious freedom' is a relative term, in the sense that what I may regard to be 'religious freedom', you may regard to be bordering anarchy. Also, I do not believe there is nation on planet earth that believes in absolute religious freedom. Everyone would confess that there is a limit to this freedom.

There is also religious freedom in Islam, in the sense that people can continue to remain on their religion and practise it as they please. As a matter of fact, religious minorities in an Islamic state are even allowed to have their own judicial system. None is allowed to force a Jewish man to become a Christian or a Muslim.

There are certain religious freedoms that are not allowed, such as blasphemy, or for a Muslim to change his religion. From the wisdoms behind this law is that a) when a person becomes a Muslim, he only does so after he is theologically and ideologically convinced of Islam, and b) to prevent the enemies from infiltrating the ranks, knowing the secrets of the state, etc, and then reverting back to the previous religion in enmity to Islam. Hence, an apostate is deemed as a threat to the state.

The point to note here is that this ruling does not apply to the children of the apostate, and they can remain as non-Muslims just like their father, without facing any punishment. This is because their status is known and they are not at all a threat to the state.

This is where Islam draws the line in terms of religious freedom.

Some Western countries have their own blasphemy laws where this 'freedom' is not tolerated, whilst some countries, ironically, do not have laws against denial of God, but they do have laws against denial of Holocaust! This is deemed absurd by many nations in the world, just as you may regard some of our laws absurd.

And may be this is where relativism plays its part.

abu imaan an-nepalee

25th January 2007, 01:51 AM

in countries which claim "civility" like the U.S. there are still crimes which are punishable by death.

This being the case, why does it seem a shock to people if another way of life also subscribed to such methods as punishment? (i.e. death)

mika

25th January 2007, 02:04 PM

Dear Abuz Zubair

Thank you very much for your long and detailed answer.

From what I see from your answer, it is not allowed, according to Islam, to convert away from Islam.

On the other hand, in Europe or the US, it IS allowed by the government and the constitution, to change religion and political stand point as you want, basically because these issues are considered as a personal choice.

Because of these constitutional rights in Europe and US, you should not fear any punishment by any goverment or humans (family, friends, people or other people) , and you should not feel threatened by any human being for converting away from Islam, do you agree about that?

Best regards
Mika’’’’

Aburafay

25th January 2007, 04:21 PM

Tell me, what worries you more. Worldly punishment, which is momentary, or the punishment in the Hereafter, which is eternal?

The maximum punishment for an apostate in this world is to be killed. The punishment in the Hereafter is Hell, to eternity. In Hell the inhabitants will be the food for the fire, and they will not burn as in this world. They will burn, be brought back to unburnt state, burnt again, then brought back. It will be perpetual. It is stated that onnly the skin will be burnt. A scientist in Germany has recently confirmed that burning of the skin is the most painful.

Think.

mika

25th January 2007, 08:22 PM

Abuz Zubair

26th January 2007, 01:26 AM

Because of these constitutional rights in Europe and US, you should not fear any punishment by any goverment or humans (family, friends, people or other people) , and you should not feel threatened by any human being for converting away from Islam, do you agree about that?

I thought I had explained myself.

As I said, Islam does not allow the Muslims to carry out punishments themselves, so yes, in that sense a person has nothing to fear in the West for leaving Islam, and indeed, some do, but the vast majority do not leave after having found Islam.

Also, this only applies to 'leaving Islam'. As for 'practising Islam' in many Western countries, including the UK, then yes it is difficult. The practising people are not persecuted by the government, but they are haunted by the press and shouted at by the public. Many Muslim women do not feel safe going out shopping in their own local area.

mika

26th January 2007, 07:59 AM

Dear Abuz Zubair,

Thank you very much for your answer.

It is now clear to me and everybody else that a muslim who want to leave Islam, has nothing to fear in the west, that is very nice to hear, and I think tha it is very important to know for all muslim people in the west, that you are free to change religion, if you want.

In the meantime, it seems to me that muslims that really convert away from Islam are treated very hard by fellow muslims, they are beeing abandonded by the family, their muslim friends cut them off, and they are seen as treators.

Don't you agree that it is your own personal choise if you want to stay as muslim, or if you want to convert away from Islam, and that friends, family and others should respect your choise withous abandon yor or threaten you?, in the end, this must be a case only between you and Allah :)

Best regards
Mika

Aburafay

26th January 2007, 08:59 AM

Hi Aburafay,

I agree that the kind of punishment that you describe her, with repeatable burning of the skin......does not sound very nice, but on the other hand, are you really sure that an "apostate" will be treated like that?
I wounder where this is stated?

Are you really sure that this will not be the punishment awaiting an apostate? I know it will be, but does that make any difference to you? If it does, we can quote ayahs for you, but if it is going to fall on deaf ears, it is an exercise in futility.

As I see the problem, it is this kind of threats, that actually make one strongly considering convert away from Islam.

Therefore, do readeres in this forum really think that threats of punishment , burnt skin.....are the right way to go?, or should it instead be a personal choise if you want to do in life, including converting away from Islam, or other religions?

It is not meant to be a threat. It is the norm. When a person commits an error, mistake, crime, etc. he\she is always warned of the consequences. Did you not face this when you were a small child and disobeyed your parents, refused to do homework? Or, when you grew up and started doing things that were against the law or against the society? Doesn't your god (the western society) have such laws? Doesn't it penalise transgressors? So what is different in your being told that transgression against the dictates of your Creator will earn you Hell, where you will stay for ever, and be subjected to painful punishments?

As regards your comment about being rejected by family and friends, what else do you expect? Do you want them to throw parties to celebrate your leaving light and going into darkness?

abu khattab

26th January 2007, 09:06 AM

Dear Mika:

Your issue about "free choice", is at question because;

1- To say that a person has free choice in all aspects of life is incorrect, because, a person who "wishes" to commit corruption in life and cause harm to either himself or fellow humans - would we say, its okay for him to do that because he has freedom of choice? NO.

2- if you wish to revert away from islam, is this your freedom of choice or can i stop you? YES, i can stop you, HOW and WHY?

A) stop you because you are going to commit an action by which you will be harming yourself. Obviously, your faith in unseen is not strong, and you do not know the concequencies of your actions, but, we know, as our faith in unseen is stronger (PLS: im not purifying myself, or making myself more pure than you), just like a mother when she tells her son something, the child doesnt understands the logic or reason, but finds out afterwards. Exactly for this reason, you do not know the gravness of this action, so we all wish you stop you by educating you.

b) from the basic pillars of islam, we ENJOIN GOOD AND FORBID evil, and to commit blamesphamy is the WORSE CORRUPTION a person can commit on the face of earth. So, i can stop you by advising you and not see my FELLOW MUSLIM HARMING HIM/HER SELF and remain silent.

c) you are obviously unaware of the fruits and bounties of islam which is causing you to think or make you do this action. Why are, 4 billion people muslims? surely if islam had nothing to offer, then why are they still muslims? GO and SEARCH! read about it, from BOOKS not ACTIONS OF PEOPLE!

d) if you wish to convert into another religion, ask yourself, what it has to offer, IS IT BETTER THAN THE RELIGION I WAS UPON. BUT BETTER IN WHAT?

1) better in its conviction that it is the true religion, and BY ALLAH, the ONE who has created you mika, name us ONE SINGLE "RELIGION" apart from islam and we will show you its corruption. Example:

Christianity: A religion named after a prophet (Jesus) called "christians". They worship a "Man" God. The same "man" never asked to be worshiped but they raised him to the status of God!....would you ever consider a man to be your creator?

A point to consider: Why are people converting to islam from other faiths in large amounts? Okay, maybe some so called "muslims" have also converted but, wallahi, look at the difference:

All those who converted from other faiths to islam were either,
1" Preachers, Rabbies, strong worshippers, authors, scientists, doctors etc etc

All those who converted from islam to other faiths:
ALL WERE LAYMEN, not A SINGLE FROM:
1" our scholars, or doctors, or those who have insight in islam have ONCE COVERTED to other faiths. Name us ONE MAJOR figure in islam who converted to other faith, BUT WE HAVE PLENTLY TO GIVE THEM.

I hope, wallahi, that this made you to think about your action cos we have care for you, so please, ask those who have converted to islam, or visit local mosques and ask them what is bothering you.

Salama 3aliekum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakaatuhu

mika

26th January 2007, 05:20 PM

Dear Aburafay and abu khattab,

Thank you for your long answers to me.

First I will respond to Aburafay:

Are you really sure that this will not be the punishment awaiting an apostate? I know it will be, but does that make any difference to you? If it does, we can quote ayahs for you, but if it is going to fall on deaf ears, it is an exercise in futility.

In such questions, Aburafay, there are only one thing to say, I can never prove that i will never be punished, on the other hand you (or anybody else, can never prove that I will actually be punished.. you see.. and because something is written someware Coran, bible, ect, the hole idear about punishment is therefore a matter of belife, and not facts!

It is not meant to be a threat. It is the norm. When a person commits an error, mistake, crime, etc. he\she is always warned of the consequences.

To this I can only say that you, or any other person, are not in position to "warn" me, this issue is between me and God!
To "warn" me or anybody else by telling us that our skin vill be burned off in hell if you convert from Islam I certainly consider as a thread Aburafay.
By the way, a person who want to convert from Islam do not commits an error, mistake, crime... actually he does not harm anybody, so what is the problem?

Here is my responds to abu khattab:

To say that a person has free choice in all aspects of life is incorrect, because, a person who "wishes" to commit corruption in life and cause harm to either himself or fellow humans - would we say, its okay for him to do that because he has freedom of choice? NO.

But I am not harming anybody, either myself, or fellow humans, so yes my friend, it is a persons own choise if he wants to leave Islam, and therefore YES, we will say this is a part of his free choise.

With regards to if you, or other human beeing have shall have the right, to stop a person that want to convert away from Islam I must say that you are actually putting yourself in place of Good!
This is, in the end, ONLY a matter between the person that wants to convert, and then God, and that is how it should be.
As soon as human beeing begin to act on the behave of God, and tell other what to do on behave of God, thats where the problems begin, remember that, and if this simple rule were followed, we would have much less problems in the world.
So yes, converting away from Islam, or any ther religion, is a personal issue that no other human beeing should interfeer into.

All those who converted from other faiths to islam were either,
1" Preachers, Rabbies, strong worshippers, authors, scientists, doctors etc etc

All those who converted from islam to other faiths:
ALL WERE LAYMEN, not A SINGLE FROM:
1" our scholars, or doctors, or those who have insight in islam have ONCE COVERTED to other faiths. Name us ONE MAJOR figure in islam who converted to other faith, BUT WE HAVE PLENTLY TO GIVE THEM.

abu khattab, the above statement are taken out of the blue, in relaty either me or you will ever know if there has been scholars, or doctors between those which has converted over time.

So therefor, my friends, do not judge your fellow human beeings so hard if they want to convet away from Islam, remember it still the same nice guy or girl, as the day before, the judgment shall come from God (if there is any) and not from you.
I that way the world will be a much nicher place to be :)

BR
Mika

Umm Ahmed

26th January 2007, 08:04 PM

Hi Mika

You mentioned in your answer to Aburafay that you doubt whats in the Quran or Bible , but then go on to mention God , for the sake of clarity could you say where your beliefs are taken from ?

If one was to leave Islam what would they then be going to ? from believing that God is the one who needs no partners to being split into three ? Or to be what they are without the name a muslim ie. being a muslim is not cool in Europe.

Aburafay

26th January 2007, 09:42 PM

Dear Aburafay

In such questions, Aburafay, there are only one thing to say, I can never prove that i will never be punished, on the other hand you (or anybody else, can never prove that I will actually be punished.. you see.. and because something is written someware Coran, bible, ect, the hole idear about punishment is therefore a matter of belife, and not facts!

Sister Umm-Ahmed has asked you a question about your beliefs. I will go further by asking you, whether you have any beliefs. Personally, I think you don't, and you are already out of the fold of Islam, if you were ever in it.

To this I can only say that you, or any other person, are not in position to "warn" me, this issue is between me and God!
To "warn" me or anybody else by telling us that our skin vill be burned off in hell if you convert from Islam I certainly consider as a thread Aburafay.
By the way, a person who want to convert from Islam do not commits an error, mistake, crime... actually he does not harm anybody, so what is the problem?

Can you tell us why nobody is in a position to warn you against the dangers of what you intend to do? Did you not come on a discussion forum and ask? Once you ask a question, every member entitled to write in the forum has the right to reply from what he/she knows.

Yes, the person who leaves Islam does not commit an error, muistake or crime. Those were just examples. He/she commits the biggest sin of rejection (kufr). No problem. You asked, and I replied. May be somebody may benefit from what I wrote as it is true, from my limited knowledge.

abu khattab

26th January 2007, 11:41 PM

Salama 3aliekum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuhu

I would totally agree with Aburafy, i personally do not consider you a muslim too after what you said about your doubt in the existance of God itself. So, YES, do not burden yourself with converting, you were never a muslim in the first place.

As for "who knows if we will be punished or not"...this is a silly question. We have examples in FRONT OF OUR EYES to prove that GOD does punish people:

1- Firawn (Pharoah/ Ramsis)..his entire story is mentioned in quran, a book which you doubt told us 1450 yrs ago about him

2- People of Noah and his ship. This was ALSO told to us 1450 yrs ago, and the ships exact location was located USING VERSES FROM QURAN.
(consider this for a miracle)

3- People of Elephant. 50 yrs before the birth of prophet muhammed, was revealed onto him

these are just fewwwwww examples. The quran is FILLED with stories of people of past who were punished when they disobeyed, and their traces are STILL FOUND as a reminder to mankind, but mankind as Allah says is BLIND, DUMB AND DEAF. So, poor you who "ever" did once prounced the testification of faith:

"I bear witness that there is no one worthy to be worshipped except for Allah and Muhammed is His slave and messenger"

But, you never had a convincing faith in God in the first place. Like i said, you have to be dumb and deaf to turn away from islam and from the book of Allah (quran).

You really mentioned a SILLY argument again. Which nation does not Boost when they get a 1up on their rivals. What is the job of historians? either you do not read history or again you wish to be as Allah says "They are like donkies, carrying books on their backs (but do not benefit from it)"..

Tell us a single name from the history where a "scholar" or a person well versed in islam, converted to another religion?

Anyway, the fact that you wish to turn away from islam proves that God didnt see good in you to give you the honour of islam...but you still have time.

Wa salama 3aliekum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh

Abuz Zubair

27th January 2007, 12:11 AM

and I think tha it is very important to know for all muslim people in the west, that you are free to change religion, if you want.

You don't have to tell them anything. They already know. There is nothing preventing them from changing their religion either. In fact, the talk in the city is not of changing one's religion, it is about more and more sleeping Muslims waking up and practising Islam, which is referred to by the Home Office as 'radicalisation'.

The fact that you think that Muslims do not know of the freedoms available to them in the West, such as to change one's religion, only shows that you are more than slightly out of touch.

In the meantime, it seems to me that muslims that really convert away from Islam are treated very hard by fellow muslims, they are beeing abandonded by the family, their muslim friends cut them off, and they are seen as treators.

How can you dictate to anyone who they should love or hate, being a secularist and liberal? And wasn't I right when I earlier said that even secularism is a religion for behaving worse than theocracies?

Many practising Catholic families, nay, communities, would abandon those who have sex outside marriage, not to mention apostasy. Whereas in Islam, even if a person falls into sins, he is supported and helped by his family and his community.

It is like asking why would a socialist hate a nazi, or vice versa? Why would the Tories hate the lib dems? In fact, why is love and hate allowed for all citizens of the European countries, but the Muslims? If it is normal for people from various religions and political background to love and hate based on the ideology they feel strongly attached to, why pick on Islam and Muslims?

But for the record, your questions are very hypothetical. I for one haven't heard of many people leave Islam in decades.

To everyone else, please don't be so gullible and use some sense. Mika is not a Muslim, and never was a Muslim. My hunch is (and this is only a hunch), that he is either inquisitive about the so-called Islamic-extremism, or he is one of the tabloid journalists, lying in wait for anyone to make a stupid statement, which he can then use to run a smear campaign and earn a bit of living.

Mika, do not be offended if this is not true at all, but in the current climate of religious persecution faced by Muslims in the West, I am sure you would excuse me ;)

ibn 'abd al-jabbaar

27th January 2007, 10:13 AM

as-salaamu 'alaikum

To everyone else, please don't be so gullible and use some sense. Mika is not a Muslim, and never was a Muslim.

absolutely. i have never known of a person who would post on a forum saying "hey guys! me and my friends want to leave islam! how do we do it?!?"

it is, of course, a pretext for stimulating discussion, and IMHO a fabricated pretext.

mika

28th January 2007, 06:56 PM

Dear all,

I am sorry that it took some time for me to respond.

I see that participates in this thread has asked me if I am muslim, christian or belive in another religion.
Dur to personal reasons, I prefer to keep that for myself, it is a personel thing that I want to keep for myself, and actually, that is exately how I think that all people in the world should relate to belife.
Actually it is a supprise to me that everybody are so curious at what belive I have.

To Abuz Zubair, don't worrie, I am not journalist, and I am not trying to fool anybody into any kind of trick with my questions, what I am interrested i, is to try to understand how and why so many people within Islam, especially if you are grown up in the West, can not accept that a religion is a PERSONAL issue, that should be respected, and if a person wants to leave, let her, or him do it and respect it, and love the person, as you did before.
That is what I am interrested in understand, and that is the reason for my first mail here in this thread.

Unfortunately, until now, I have not seen any sign of understanding that the choise of religion is a personal choise that everybody shall respect, or am I wrong?

So again, because it is still not clear for me :), if my friend, my son, my daughter comes to me and tell me that he/she do not want to be a muslim anymore, I shall say to her/him:

I am very sorry to hear that, but I respect your choise.

Do you agree about that?

best regards

Mika

Abu_Abdillah2000

30th January 2007, 09:31 AM

So again, because it is still not clear for me , if my friend, my son, my daughter comes to me and tell me that he/she do not want to be a muslim anymore, I shall say to her/him:

I am very sorry to hear that, but I respect your choise.

Why would you, personally, be sorry about someone leaving Islam? You seem to be pretty keen on the idea of Muslims leaving Islam, and you have also quite clearly indicated in other posts and threads that you believe there are other ways of life better than Islam. So why on earth would you be "sorry" to hear that someone left Islam?

I think you are just an obstinate trouble maker who likes to argue. It seems that your own beliefs are so shaky and infirm that you feel you need to constantly open up the doors to debate controversial issues, in order to try and prove to yourself that you are "right".

mika

30th January 2007, 07:00 PM

Dear Abu_Abdillah2000,

The word "sorry" in my example, were meant to be seen from a Muslim point of view, and if you were still a believer, I would think that you would be sorry to hear that you son or daughter, would like to leave Islam, that's why I use the word "sorry"

Abu_Abdillah2000 to argue that I am a trouble maker, just because i ask questions that are not official "legal" to ask, just makes it even more important to ask the question, don't you see?
Asking question is the most important thing that you can do, because it open the eyes of people, both at the person that ask, and at the person that answer.
To state that I am a troublemaker because I ask how to leave Islam, and what the consequences should be if you do, is a very simple question, but what really strikes me is the FEAR, that seems to be associated with this issue, that is sad, and for me it really says something the nature of Islam.

Best regards
Mika

abu khattab

30th January 2007, 07:42 PM

Mika,

You really contradicted yourself their. According to you, religion is "personal" issue right? so no one should have any "feelings" towards someone choosing to accept any religion he/she wishes to adopt? However, you just, if your children, family, etc etc would come to you and tell you that they have choosen islam, your response would be:

"im sorry" ... so you would feel some remorse. Same thing, having knowing the benefit of something, when one leaves it, the others should feel sad for that individual, and thats how i feel for you..."SAD"....

your situation is just sad, you know the light and you want Darkness, full of hopeless!

SAD!

mika

31st January 2007, 01:43 PM

Hi abu khattab,

This is not a contradiction at all, I fully ynderstand the one can feel really sorry for what another person do, simply because one will think that is is a wrong decission and you care for that person.

Therefore it is fully OK to say that you are sorry, what is NOT acceptable, in my oppinion, is to force, threaten, abandon the individiul from the family, or even excute.....!!! people because a person want to leave Islam, that is the big problem don't you agree?.

What do you think is right to do if your son, daughter, friend wants to leave Islam?

suhail

31st January 2007, 04:15 PM

The problem with you mika is that you dont understand the value of Islam in a muslims mind. Secondly abandoning someone from the family is because the person in question has discard the most important thing on which that family is based on. For a muslim Islams comes first before everything else and thus if someone devalues it then the muslim has no other choice but to leave that person. Yes we feel sorry for that person. Nobody is saying that we dont feel bad if somebody does that. By the way as Abuz zubair stated this discussion is hypothetical and fruitless as i have not seen any person with my eyes leaving Islam.

Regarding why to execute him then Abuz Zubair has given you the answer to that. Why you keep questioning after that is whats called trouble making. You wanted an answer we gave you one. The problem is that no we are not afraid of your question but because we gave the answer to the question you have asked.

Regarding what if this happens and that happens, then we will talk about it when that happens? It is worthless to discuss such hypothetical things.

mika

31st January 2007, 06:11 PM

Dear Suhail,

Thank you very much, I think that you answer is the clearest answer I have got yet:

For a Muslim Islams comes first before everything else and thus if someone devalues it then the Muslim has no other choice but to leave that person

I am sure that you are right, and that actually says everything about Islam...meaning that in reality Islam also comes before life (you said everything), meaning that Muslims are willing to offer their own children in the name of Islam....:cry: :cry: don't you really see that all this, in the end, is a matter of an ideology (Islam) that are constantly afraid of loosing it's power, and therefore needs to threat and punish, to keep in power?
My dear friends, how can you give your life to that..? can't you see that something went terrible wrong..

suhail

31st January 2007, 08:48 PM

"I am sure that you are right, and that actually says everything about Islam...meaning that in reality Islam also comes before life (you said everything), meaning that Muslims are willing to offer their own children in the name of Islam.... don't you really see that all this, in the end, is a matter of an ideology (Islam) that are constantly afraid of loosing it's power, and therefore needs to threat and punish, to keep in power?
My dear friends, how can you give your life to that..? can't you see that something went terrible wrong.."

Mika, you really dont understand do you? What does this phrase mean "Muslims are willing to offer their own children in the name of Islam"? Did i say that? No i didnt. And what does that mean anyway. Really I think you need to work on your english first because your sentences dont make any sense. They are just that a hodgepodge of words. So please attend some english classes first so that when you write something it is something that is coherent.

"My dear friends, how can you give your life to that..? can't you see that something went terrible wrong.."

We didnt gave our life to that. We live according to Islam. Yes to your surprise we live a happy life. I think you would be shocked to hear that because in your little dream muslims are either stupid maniacs or dont enjoy there lives. Yes something went terribly wrong but not with us . Its you who have gone terribly wrong. And dont worry when that wrongness will strike you all your dreams are gonna collapse like a house of cards. So worry about yourself matey. Dont worry about us.

I guess this will end here mika because i really dont want to discuss with a person who is delusional like you. Let me be truthful that i think you are not just delusional but according to you what you follow is the correct way while others who have a different view are stupid. I think 1.5 billion people and increasing are either maniacs or fool according to your standard. I would rather trust them rather than a tinpot like you. Go and get some sleep.

Suhail

mika

1st February 2007, 12:32 AM

Dear Suhail and anybody else reading this thread,

Thank you for your answer.
I am sorry that my English in my last email was not very good, on the other hand, it seems that you understood what I meant anyway, and that is the most important, isn’t it?:)

I think you would be shocked to hear that because in your little dream muslins are either stupid maniacs or dont enjoy there lives.

No Suhail, I am not shocked at all, I my self have muslin friends, and I frequently go on business trips to the middle east visiting many muslin countries.
When I visit these countries, I have only met kindness and respect (no one have criticized my English...before) so I have no personal issues with muslin people. In the meantime the kindness and respect I meet in these countries in NOT due to Islam, but due to common politeness from where we certainly could learn something in the west!

My main issue is not people, my main issue is the ideology of ISLAM, and the way this religion are being practised with regards to for example what we just discussed (leaving Islam).

Another example of Islams way of intolerance is if a Muslim girl wants to marry a none muslin man, and the man do not want to convert to Islam, then we got the problem.....again, punishment, threats ect.

What do you think suhail (and anybody else that read this) shall a muslim girl be allowed to marry a non muslin man, in other words, a mixed-religion marriages?, or should she be PUNISHED and kicked out of the family if she wanted to do that?

I would rather trust them rather than a tinpot like you. Go and get some sleep.

I see that for both Mobius and myself, people in this forum tend to be insulting, and go for the person, when they run out of arguments, that is a shame ;)

I wish you a good night sleep Suhail,

Best regards
Mika

suhail

1st February 2007, 04:32 PM

Dear Mika,

I was not being insulting to you but showing you the mirror. Morbius and you have the same problem because you want to see the whole world behave like you. As soon as you start seeing people different from yourself you choke from the shock.

Another thing you need to understand is that for me and my fellow muslim brothers and sisters Islam is a divine religion. Our creator has given this religion to us and this is the way of life we choose. It is more sacred to us then anything else. So when you come here and start slandering Islam and Muslims dont you think we will be offended. I am refereing to slandering is because you and morbius dont talk with proofs but some hypothetical issues. Now as i have said that for the muslims the faith is that Islam is a deen of Allah so if my son or daughter want to marry a non muslim i would not like it and yes i will be angry and devastated. And now how i behave with a person like that is not your issue.

I will end here mika because i am not sure i want to keep up with this discussion. You are not here to find out the truth or learn something but just to insult and throw garbage at us. I would rather do something better with my time rather than banging head with a wall.

Suhail

mika

1st February 2007, 05:48 PM

Hi Suhail,

Thanks for your email,

So when you come here and start slandering Islam and Muslims don’t you think we will be offended.

As I said before, I am not going for the people, but I am big time, questioning and criticizing Islam.
Questioning and criticizing was also very unpopular in Europe 200-300 years ago, when Christianity behaved in the same way, that Islam does today, but today we are happy that we got out of the dark.

I would rather do something better with my time rather than banging head with a wall.

Actually Suhail, I feel exactly the same ;) , take care, I hope you will doubt just a little bit now and then....

BR
Mika

Umm Ahmed

1st February 2007, 05:55 PM

Mika as has been told to you so many times Islam is the fastest growing religion , can you tell us how we are in the dark ? please keep it simple with facts and not your opinion.

mika

2nd February 2007, 04:18 PM

Hi Umm-Ahmed,

I think that most of the conversation in this forum is based oppinions and not facts.

I do not regard the Islamic rules as facts, either the Quran or Bible, these books just represent some man-made rules that were made many years ago.

You could ask if can prove that, and the answer is no..on the other you or anybody cannot prove the oppersite.

So in my mind, people that defend for example sharia and stoning of woman...live in the dark....remember, we are in 2007, and not in year 1500..:)

BR
Mika

suhail

2nd February 2007, 04:27 PM

The stereotype fits better on you mika. You are the one who are asking questions on hypothetical cases. You dont have any proof to bring against quran so its not even worth debating with you. Really how can a person debate with someone who has no knowledge of the topic but only have some sarcastic comments and hate in his heart. Morbius atleast come up with some hodgepodge but on the otherhand you only have hate based comments and nothing else . If you would have been sincere it would have helped you but you are past that. I hope you see light some day before its too late.

Suhail

Umm Ahmed

2nd February 2007, 06:54 PM

Thats not true everything around us suggests that there is a creator . A creator would not leave us without some guidence, thats a fact.

What do you think should happen to someone who is married with a wife and children , then goes and commits adultery and opens her and her family to the risk of aids ect ? Dont you think there should be a punishment that stops this that will make anyone think twice before doing it ? stoning would soon nip that in the bud.

Umm Farouk

14th February 2007, 12:19 PM

Mika it seems u are not lookin for answers but rather u are trying to misguide people, bear in mind u will not succeed. :D

mika

14th February 2007, 09:45 PM

Umm Ahmed

14th February 2007, 09:58 PM

Hi Umm-Ahmed

No, everything around us does not necessarily suggests that there is a creator, but we like the idea that there should be one.

In my opinion that is because mankind has always sought answers for everything, and it is good to try to find explanations for why and how things are, that brought us to the stage where we are today. That is what we call science.

What is NOT good is if we, just because there is some things we cannot cope with, or do not understand yet, explain it by means of some kind of divine power.

Simply realize that there is things we cannot explain right now, but later on an explanation (and not Jesus or Allah, ect) will be found, so simple is that.

With regards to adultery and aids, that is not very nice, agree, but a lot of adultery is done, without aids comes in the picture, so it is not an argument that we should stone people just because of somebody commits adultery.
Adultery is a personal issue between two people, society or Allah has no business there.

NO Umm-Ahmed stoning is and will ALWAYS belong to middle age again you focus too much on punishment, punishment, punishment, and that is Islam in a nutshell.

To billyj:

Guiding or misguiding, it depends of the eyes that sees it.

BR
Mika

Again Mika guess work , and hit and miss type of thinking , you must spend a lot of time staring at the ceiling thinking up new ideas .
Adultery is never ever between two people Mika it destroys whole families and communities as well , you might not think so because you dont know what it is like to live in a close knit community. Your not looking at the issues properlly all your doing is skiming the surface .

Islam is not all about punishment either but then your not interested in that side are you Mika , you just say eeny meeny minniy moe and pick something and then never bother to read about it , then babble on giving us your baseless opinions .

abu khattab

15th February 2007, 12:23 AM

Mika:
Did you ever do maths? i guess you didn't pass!

Explain formula: {0 = 1} OR {Somthing having power of =0= CREATED =1=}

No one in modern science or maths imagine or belive that something having the power of ZERO can create something..or having the power of ONE..this is beyond stupidity!

Or in other words...a creation is without a creator....NO sane person could EVER imagine A SINLE ATOM in this world has been its own creator..rather its been created by someone...

Example, a car..no one can imagine it to form by it ownself...so how about this complex universe and this human beings which you see everyday...

Allah says: "And in yourself there are signs...dont you ponder"

So, Allah is that "ONE" who created everything else...he's the ONE with the power of ONE to create 2, 3, 4, 5 so on...

and bfore you ask that pathetic question i will answer it..

Bfore Allah was "0"..and before "1" is ZERO...i-e something with ZERO power and ZERO existance..ALLAH is the ONE..and will remain...

I hope you enjoyed nursery level maths!