"tawil" of Salaf?

[abubakr]

Asalamu alaykum

I was wondering whether this thread could be dedicated to refuting certain evidences used by "sunniforum" in their tawil of salaf thread.

I will start off with the follwowing:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaykhs-Pir Sahib

Hands. In the verse,

"And the sky We built with hands; verily We outspread [it]" (Qur'an 51:47),

al-Tabari ascribes the figurative explanation (ta’wil) of with hands as meaning "with power (bi quwwa)" through five chains of transmission to Ibn ‘Abbas, who died 68 years after the Hijra, Mujahid who died 104 years after the Hijra, Qatada [ibn Da‘ama] who died 118 years after the Hijra, Mansur [ibn Zadhan al-Thaqafi] who died 131 years after the Hijra, and Sufyan al-Thawri who died 161 years after the Hijra (Jami‘ al-bayan, 27.7–8). I mention these dates to show just how early they were.

Faqir has said the following regarding this narration:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=40281&postcount=19

and also:

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=40338&postcount=20

[qadri]

as salaamu 'alaikum.

Can you please produce the ISNAD and confirm that it is Sahih.

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

wa 'alaikum as-salaam



"And the sky We built with hands; verily We outspread [it]" (Qur'an 51:47),



i think it's covered generally in this thread (http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=2013)

more specifically, see:
http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?p=4457, http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?p=12138

[abubakr]

Asalamu alaykum

Jazakallah khair.

The next example of tawil is :


[quote]it is authentically related from Ibn `Abbas that he said: "His kursî is His knowledge (kursiyyuhu `ilmuhu),"21 and this is the explanation preferred by the Imams of the Salaf such as Sufyan al-Thawri, al-Bukhari, al-Tabari, al-Bayhaqi, and others.



21 Narrated marfû` from the Prophet by Sufyan al-Thawri with a sound chain according to Ibn Hajar in Fath al-Bari (1959 ed. 8:199) and al-Tabarani in al-Sunna;

and mawqûf from Ibn `Abbas by al-Tabari with three sound chains in his Tafsir (3:9-11), al-Mawardi in his Tafsir (1:908), al-Suyuti in al-Durr al-Manthur (1:327), al-Shawkani in Fath al-Qadir (1:245), and others.

Al-Tabari chooses it as the most correct explanation: "The external wording of the Qur'an indicates the correctness of the report from Ibn `Abbas that it [the kursî] is His `ilm... and the original sense of al-kursî is al-`ilm."

Also narrated in "suspended" form (mu`allaq) by al-Bukhari in his Sahih from Sa`id ibn Jubayr (Book of Tafsir, chapter on the saying of Allah Most High: {And if you go in fear, then (pray) standing or on horseback} (2:239).

Its chains are documented by Ibn Hajar in Taghliq al-Ta`liq (2/4:185-186) where he shows that Sufyan al-Thawri, `Abd al-Rahman ibn Mahdi, and Waki` narrated it marfû` from the Prophet , although in the Fath he declares the mawqûf version from Ibn `Abbas more likely.[quote]

and



[quote]Imam Tabari writes that the Companions (Allah be well pleased with them) and students of the Companions (Allah be well pleased with them) held a difference of opinion concerning the meaning of the word Kursi, which appears in this verse. Some scholars are of the opinion that no one knows the true meaning of this word apart from Allah Most High. Other scholars say that the word Kursi in this verse refers to the Knowledge of Allah Most High, meaning that His Knowledge encompasses all that is the heavens and the earth. Some of the Companions (Allah be well pleased with them) and their students (Allah be well pleased with them) have held the opinion that, the word Kursi refers to the Throne of Allah Most High. This is because another name for throne is Kursi. They also held that the Throne of Allah Most High comprises the heavens and the earth.

[Tafsir al-Tabari: Under Ayat al-Kursi. Imam al-Tabari[quote]

Could akhi Abu zuabir or other brothers please answer this. Jazakallah

[Um Abdullah M.]

why waste ur time
sufis themselves say that Salaf did not do ta'wil to sifat but did tafwid.
also, many ash'ari scholars of past themselves confirm that Salaf's madhhab in this issue is not to do ta'wil.

[aMuslimForLife]

why waste ur time
sufis themselves say that Salaf did not do ta'wil to sifat but did tafwid.
also, many ash'ari scholars of past themselves confirm that Salaf's madhhab in this issue is not to do ta'wil.

As Salaam Alaykum,

I don't know what Sufis you are talking about. But the basis for the Sufis engaging in tawil is because the Salafus Saleh did it. And it should be known that Sufis do not have their own Aqidah they follow one of the schools of Aqidah that exist, such as Ashari, Maturidi, or True Athari Aqidah. But the preferred method of the late Sufis is tafwid as indicated in Sidi Ahmad Zarruq's Principles of Spiritual Path.

The Ashari/Maturidi which includes the great hadith scholars such as al-Nawawi and others are of the opinion that the vast majority of the Salafus Saleh engaged in tafwid and a minority of the Salafus Saleh engaged in tawil. I know there is a difference of opinion between the Asharis and Salafis as to whether or not al-Nawawi was an Ashari, I consider him an Ashari. Let us just agree to disagree as to whether al-Nawawi was an Ashari or not. The Modern Day Ashari scholars regard him as a reference and what he says has weight in the Ashari school. (Refer to Imam Nawawi's Majmoo)

It seems to me that Ibn Taymiyyah did not necessarily oppose tawil in and of itself, the problem that Ibn Taymiyyah had with the tawil of the Asharis, is he felt they would make tawil of words which he felt had no basis in the Arabic language as understood by the early arabs, such as the duality of hand indicating power.

And Allah knows best.

[Abuz Zubair]

Brother AbuBakr,

this link deals in depth with the athar of Ibn 'Abbas with respect to Kursi being knowledge:

http://ahlalhdeeth.com/vb/showthread.php?p=465709


May be someone can summarise for us?

I am a bit busy nowadays, so I cannot right much. But in brief:

al-Tahawi says in his creed that the 'Arsh and the Kursi truly exist.

In its explanation, Ibn Abil-'Izz al-Hanafi says that the Kursi is other than Allah's Throne, and that it is authentically reported from Ibn 'Abbas that he said that Kursi is a footstool for Allah's Two Feet.

As for what is narrated from Ibn 'Abbas that Kursi is knowledge, then that is greatly disputed amongst the scholars. For instance, Ibn Kathir quotes this from Ibn Abbas in his tafseer, but then he remarks and says, however, what is actually established from Ibn Abbas is that Kursi is a footstool.

Ibn Abi al-'Izz al-hanafi says the same:

وقيل كرسيه علمه وينسب الى ابن عباس والمحفوظ عنه ما رواه ابن ابي شيبة كما تقدم ومن قال غير ذلك فليس له دليل إلا مجرد الظن والظاهر أنه من جراب الكلام المذموم كما قيل في العرش

al-Bayhaqi also believes in Kursi literally and rejects the athar of Ibn 'Abbas which he mentions in his al-Asma wal-Sifat.

[abubakr]

Jazakallah khair

Faqir also said:

"The Prophet's saying: "Allah smiled/laughed last night at the good deed of both of you..." which is part of a longer hadith about the Ansari who hosted a guest of the Prophet's while he himself remained hungry with his wife. Bukhari and Muslim extracted it through various chains. Al-Bukhari interpreted Allah's smile or laughter as His mercy, and he did not stop and content himself to say: "Let it pass without asking how."(3)* ((Bukhari (Tafsir Sura 59 & Manaqib al-Ansar Ch. 10 #3798)


Bayhaqi in his al-Asma' wa al-sifat related Hammad ibn Zayd's interpretation of Allah's descent to the nearest heaven, in the hadiths of descent, as His drawing near to His servants.(4)*" (Bayhaqi, al-Asma' wa al-sifat p. 456)

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=51724&postcount=4

[Abuz Zubair]

Jazakallah khair

Faqir also said:

"The Prophet's saying: "Allah smiled/laughed last night at the good deed of both of you..." which is part of a longer hadith about the Ansari who hosted a guest of the Prophet's while he himself remained hungry with his wife. Bukhari and Muslim extracted it through various chains. Al-Bukhari interpreted Allah's smile or laughter as His mercy, and he did not stop and content himself to say: "Let it pass without asking how."(3)* ((Bukhari (Tafsir Sura 59 & Manaqib al-Ansar Ch. 10 #3798)


Bayhaqi in his al-Asma' wa al-sifat related Hammad ibn Zayd's interpretation of Allah's descent to the nearest heaven, in the hadiths of descent, as His drawing near to His servants.(4)*" (Bayhaqi, al-Asma' wa al-sifat p. 456)

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=51724&postcount=4
I have dealt with this elsewhere before... al-Bayhaqi suggests that al-bukhari says that Allah laughing refers to His mercy. Ibn Hajar says in response in his Fath that he did not find this comment from al-Bukhari in ANY of the manuscripts he had in his possession.

Ibn Hajar had a huge library in his position, and in fact, he was made incharge of one of the biggest libraries of his time. He would also take great care in referring to the various manuscripts when compiling works on different topics.