Tawassul Through the Dead Discussion Thread (and for links to other threads)...

[aboosafar]

As salamu 'alaykum,
This thread is for a discussion on tawassul through the dead, from the prophet (s.a.w.s.) and others from the ambiya' and awliya'.

I'm am very convinced about this topic from all the Quranic aayah pertaining to making du'a' to Allah alone and the hadith "ad Du'a' huwal 'ibadah" and "ad Du'aa' huwa mukh al 'ibadah" and the countless ayah pertaining to it, but I want to hear both sides of the story on this topic as well in a consise general manner with their views and their evidences so I can make sure I haven't been biased in my approach.

I'd also like to see if some distinguish between tawassul with an nabi and tawassul with other than him from the anbiya' and awliya'.

Same thing, only post url's and links if they are not to much to digest and fall under the abovementioned guidelines (consise, general explanations of each side with their evidences without arguing and going off on a tangent etc.).

Please, knowledgable salafi's and traditional sunni's particapate here.

Allah yajzeekumul khair.

[Um Abdullah M.]

do u mean tawassul that is asking the dead to make duaa for u?

like going to the grave of the Prophets salalahu alayhi wa salam and saying "ya rasullallah ask Allah to forgive my sins"
so u are asking Allah through the rasul (sallallahu alayhi wa sallam), making the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam an intermediater

correct?

[aboosafar]

Na'am, that's what I mean.

And I would also like to know about du'aa' through the awliya'.

[waziri]

Asalamualaykum

My understanding of tawassul is that one asks Allah by the status of the prophet(saw)ie "Ya Allah please accept my dua for the sake of the prophet(saw)". So the one being asked is Allah alone.

This is where I think alot of confusion arises because if someone says tawassul is permisssible it would need to be clarified as to what is actually meant by the term "tawassul".As we can see different people have different understandings of what tawassul is.

I think (and please correct me if im wrong)that when the ulema say tawassul through the prophet(saw) is permissible they mean the tawassul I have described above.

wasalam

[Um Abdullah M.]

Sufis believe that tawassul by asking dead to make duaa to Allah for them is permissable.
ask them yourself and see what they say.

[Break The Cross]

I hope we will stick with Qur'an and Sunnah when this is being discussed and not opinions of people.

[joefso]

yes, but i read that suffis say that they are not dead but alife?

[Um Abdullah M.]

the Prophets are alive, but not the awliya.
and they do tawassul to both.
also, the life of the Prophets alayhem assalam after their death is different then their life in this world before their death.
still that is not evidance for permissability.

[joefso]

the Prophets are alive, but not the awliya.
and they do tawassul to both.
also, the life of the Prophets alayhem assalam after their death is different then their life in this world before their death.
still that is not evidance for permissability.

how is their life different? I read that their life is in the grave, is that the only difference? And do you regard doing tassawul through prophets because of that not premissible?

[Um Abdullah M.]

to understand what I mean by that
check here:
The Life of the Prophets (http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=26117&ln=eng)

and here:
http://aqeedah.wordpress.com/2006/11/01/prophets-being-alive-in-the-grave/

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

as-salaamu 'alaikum

hope this (http://istigatha.wordpress.com/tag/istigatha-tawassul/) helps insha Allah

[Um Abdullah M.]

akhi aboosafar

also listen to lecture by shaikh Abdur Rahman Dimashqiyah, I listened to first tape and it is mostly about this issue.

u will find it here:
http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=2619

It is in English

[asifkhan]

Kinds of Tawassul

Question:
I have been discussing the subject of using "waseela" while supplicating to Allah (swt) with some Muslims, and have come to know that there are quite different opinions about fact whether the use of "waseela" in duaa is halaal or haraam. Could you please provide me with some information about this subject, some ayaat from the Holy Qur'an or authentic ahaadeeth? With the term "use of waseela" I mean asking via the agency of someone, fx "I ask You (O Allah) to grant me forgiveness via the agency of Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him and his household)" or via the agency of other Prophets (Peace be upon them), saints or other pious Muslims.

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.

What is meant by tawassul and waseelah is four things:

the kind of tawassul without which faith cannot be complete, which is seeking to reach Allaah (tawassul) by believing in Him and His Messengers, and obeying Him and His Messenger, This is what is meant in the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Do your duty to Allaah and fear Him. Seek the means of approach to Him…”

[al-Maa’idah 5:35]

This includes seeking to approach Allaah through His Names and Attributes, or by doing acts of obedience and worship by which one seeks to approach Allaah, and so on.

Seeking to approach Allaah by asking His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) to make du’a’ for one during his lifetime, and the believers asking one another to make du’aa’ for one another. This follows on from the first type and is encouraged.

Seeking to approach Allaah by virtue of the status and virtues of some created being, such as saying, “O Allaah, I ask You by virtue of Your Prophet” and so on. This is allowed by some of the ‘ulama’, but this opinion is da’eef (weak). The correct view is that it is definitely haraam, because there can be no tawassul in du’aa’ except by virtue of the Names and Attributes of Allaah.

Tawassul as it is understood by many of the Muslims of later times, which is calling on the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and seeking his help (or seeking the help of the dead and so-called awliya’). This is a form of major shirk, because calling on or seeking help from anyone other than Allaah with regard to something that that only Allaah is able to do is a kind of worship, and directing worship to anyone or anything other than Allaah is major shirk. And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

ONE OTHER RELEVANT POINT:

Shaykh al-Albaani (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

It is essential to note that we believe it is permissible to seek blessing from the relics of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and we do not denounce it, contrary to what our opponents think, but this seeking of blessing is subject to certain conditions, including the following:

Correct faith that is acceptable to Allaah. If a person is not a Muslim who believes sincerely in Islam, Allaah will never grant him any good by his seeking blessing in this manner.

It is also stipulated that the one who wants to seek blessing have found one of the genuine relics of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

We know that relics such as his garments, hair, etc. have been lost and it is not possible for anyone to prove with certainty that any of them exist.

[joefso]

to understand what I mean by that
check here:
The Life of the Prophets (http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=26117&ln=eng)

and here:
http://aqeedah.wordpress.com/2006/11/01/prophets-being-alive-in-the-grave/

interesting, however, I noticed the whole funding of that article is based upon:


When they were asked to classify the soul, whether it is a substance which exists by itself, or an accident which subsists in a substance and does not exist by itself; they opted for the soul being an accident, just as life is also an accident in a human body. They said that the qualities of a living being depend on the soul, which is an accident. Hence, when this accident, i.e. the soul, disappears, all the qualities of life also disappear.

Could someone show me some daliel so I can accept this? (b.t.w nice weblog! Is it yours?)

Further, the posted islam-qa.com site, why isn't this backedup by clasical tafsir like Tabari, Qurtubi or Jalalin? Could someone show me the tafsir of the explained verses?

wasalaam

[suhail]

When they were asked to classify the soul, whether it is a substance which exists by itself, or an accident which subsists in a substance and does not exist by itself; they opted for the soul being an accident, just as life is also an accident in a human body. They said that the qualities of a living being depend on the soul, which is an accident. Hence, when this accident, i.e. the soul, disappears, all the qualities of life also disappear.


What the heck does this mean? From where did you get this crazy stuff.

Suhail

[joefso]

from Asmaa

[Um Abdullah M.]

interesting, however, I noticed the whole funding of that article is based upon:


Could someone show me some daliel so I can accept this? (b.t.w nice weblog! Is it yours?)

no, the blog is not mine.
and the owner of the blog was explaining the reason why the ones who say (the prophets are alive in the sense of the wordlly life) after their death say that, explaining their reasoning, which is wrong, that is what I understood, and I think the owner of the blog is a member in this forum if I am not mistaken.
if he is, maybe he can answer ur question regarding this.

Further, the posted islam-qa.com site, why isn't this backedup by clasical tafsir like Tabari, Qurtubi or Jalalin? Could someone show me the tafsir of the explained verses?

wasalaam

akhi, have u seen in every fatwa scholars mentioning tafsir of every ayah they quote?
some ayat are obvious.
also, regarding the issue of their souls being out of their bodies, and their bodies are in grave, while their souls are not inside the grave with their body, it is the correct belief.
some say
"what about the hadith where the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam saw Musa alayhi assalam praying at or in his grave, also in night of mi'raj he saw the Prophets in their bodies".
the answer is found in the explanation of the hadith in both fath al-Bari (explanation of sahih al-BUkhari) by Imam Ibn Hajar rahimahu Allah, and in the explanation of sahih Muslim by Imam an-Nawawi rahimahu Allah.
the explanation is that Allah gave their souls an image, and that it is not their real bodies which are in their graves.

[waziri]

Can someone please explain this hadith?



From the Sahabi Malik al-Dar:

The people suffered a drought in `Umar's khilafa, whereupon a man came to the grave of the Prophet sallAllahu `alayhi wa- Alihi wa-Sallam and said: "Messenger of Allah! Ask for rain for your Community, for verily they have but perished." After this the Prophet appeared to him in a dream and told him: "Go to `Umar and give him my greeting, then tell him that they will be watered. Tell him: Be clever!" The man went and told `Umar. The latter wept and said: "My Lord! I spare no effort except in what escapes my power."

Ibn Kathir cites it thus from al-Bayhaqi's Dala'il al-Nubuwwa (7:47) in al-Bidaya wal-Nihaya (Ma`arif ed. 7:91-92=Dar Ihya' al-Turath ed. 7:105) saying: "isnaduhu sahih" and he also declares its chain sound (isnaduhu jayyidun qawi) in his Jami` al-Masanid (1:223) in Musnad `Umar. Ibn Abi Shayba cites it (6:352=12:31-32) with a sound (sahih) chain as confirmed by Ibn Hajar who says: "rawa Ibn Abi Shayba bi'isnadin sahih" and cites the hadith in Fath al-Bari, Book of Istisqa ch. 3 (1989 ed. 2:629-630=1959 ed. 2:495) as well as in al-Isaba (6:164 §8350=3:484) where he says that Ibn Abi Khaythama cited it. It is also thus narrated by al-Khalili in al-Irshad (1:313- 314) and Ibn `Abd al-Barr in al-Isti`ab (2:464=3:1149).

Al-Albani attempted to weaken this report in his Tawassul (p. 120) but was refuted in the lengthy analysis given by Mamduh in Raf` al-Minara (p. 262-278), which refutes other similar attempts cf. Ibn Baz's marginalia on Fath al-Bari, Abu Bakr al-Jaza'iri's tract Wa-Ja'u Yarkudun, Hammad al-Ansari's articles "al-Mafhum al-Sahih lil-Tawassul" also titled "Tuhfat al-Qari fil-Radd `ala al-Ghumari," and other such literature.

Ibn Hajar identifies the man who visited and saw the Prophet upon him peace, in his dream as the Companion Bilal ibn al- Harith, counting this hadith among the reasons for al- Bukhari's naming of the chapter "The people's request to their leader for rain if they suffer drought" in his Sahih, book of Istisqa'.

[joefso]

no, the blog is not mine.
and the owner of the blog was explaining the reason why the ones who say (the prophets are alive in the sense of the wordlly life) after their death say that, explaining their reasoning, which is wrong, that is what I understood, and I think the owner of the blog is a member in this forum if I am not mistaken.
if he is, maybe he can answer ur question regarding this.


Yes, InshAllaah. We can't exept anything without proper daliel.


akhi, have u seen in every fatwa scholars mentioning tafsir of every ayah they quote?
some ayat are obvious.
also, regarding the issue of their souls being out of their bodies, and their bodies are in grave, while their souls are not inside the grave with their body, it is the correct belief.
some say
"what about the hadith where the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam saw Musa alayhi assalam praying at or in his grave, also in night of mi'raj he saw the Prophets in their bodies".
the answer is found in the explanation of the hadith in both fath al-Bari (explanation of sahih al-BUkhari) by Imam Ibn Hajar rahimahu Allah, and in the explanation of sahih Muslim by Imam an-Nawawi rahimahu Allah.
the explanation is that Allah gave their souls an image, and that it is not their real bodies which are in their graves.

The reasons why I don't like interpreting according to fatwa, is that for example we could take this aya also in the same sense:

033.006
YUSUFALI: The Prophet is closer to the Believers than their own selves, and his wives are their mothers. Blood-relations among each other have closer personal ties, in the Decree of Allah. Than (the Brotherhood of) Believers and Muhajirs: nevertheless do ye what is just to your closest friends: such is the writing in the Decree (of Allah).

And if I would say, you have to take this 'literally' cause why would Allaah give shaytaan more power then his own last and final messenger? Shaytaan can be in our blood and can be ominipresent! So not our Prophet peace be uponhim? Regarding that ayat, we can't say, no, that's just for that time, cause that would mean quran is outdated(stagfirullah). So it's verry important to objectivly research every daleil before you accept it, even if our own fathers say otherwise.

You see if we interpret in this way, we would actupon our religion this way, who knows where we end!!

So the point is, why don't they complete the whole story, they do fatwa and quran as daliela, is it so hard to show some tafsir for them?


This is just my opinion and I would like to have all four clasical tafsirs on these ayats, used by the pro-tassawul ppl and the anti-tassawul ppl. And comments on the ahadith by people of the salaf, like Imam Nawawi or if possible the four Imams of Fiqh.. (that's fair, right?)

[Um Abdullah M.]

here is a thread on the aqeedah of Ash'aris regarding life of the Prophets
http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=935

[joefso]

hmm interesting, but what about the verses that the sufis use, something that we may not consieder everyone dead if they are slain in path of Allaah? I don't see any tafsir on that?


And what comments of ahadith did scholars of the salaf give on the saying of abu bakr? Cause as I understand it, the prophet did die but his soul was brought back.... i mean, how many times do ppl arround the world send blessings upon the prophet? must be like in every minute....... anyway, i'm going to do some more research if someone could show me opionon of imam nawawi of tafsir of ibn abas or any or the other calsical tafsir, on the verses used by the ppl who claim muhammad peace be upon him are alife and ppl who claim he is dead(both of their evidence needs to be exeamend)?

[joefso]

oh yes I think I remember where I read it....

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1681&CATE=108

here it says suyuti said it also.... hmm....

[Abuz Zubair]

http://aqeedah.wordpress.com/2006/11/01/prophets-being-alive-in-the-grave/

This should sort out the issue for you, inshaaAllah..

Let meknow if it doesn't

[joefso]

http://aqeedah.wordpress.com/2006/11/01/prophets-being-alive-in-the-grave/

This should sort out the issue for you, inshaaAllah..

Let meknow if it doesn't


Yes could you INshAllaah show some daliel on:

When they were asked to classify the soul, whether it is a substance which exists by itself, or an accident which subsists in a substance and does not exist by itself; they opted for the soul being an accident, just as life is also an accident in a human body. They said that the qualities of a living being depend on the soul, which is an accident. Hence, when this accident, i.e. the soul, disappears, all the qualities of life also disappear.

[Abuz Zubair]

Dalil for what exactly? This is not my argument. I am only relating the Ash'ari doctrine

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

Dalil for what exactly? This is not my argument. I am only relating the Ash'ari doctrine


lol! dats funny!

[joefso]

Dalil for what exactly? This is not my argument. I am only relating the Ash'ari doctrine

Regarding the classification of the source, etc... ?:rolleyes:

[Abuz Zubair]

Regarding the classification of the source, etc... ?:rolleyes:
sorry... what source?

[joefso]

When they were asked to classify the soul, whether it is a substance which exists by itself, or an accident which subsists in a substance and does not exist by itself; they opted for the soul being an accident, just as life is also an accident in a human body. They said that the qualities of a living being depend on the soul, which is an accident. Hence, when this accident, i.e. the soul, disappears, all the qualities of life also disappear.

I assume it's the suffis who say this, so, where can I find their sayings or classifcations on the soul. Or better? How can I verify they said this?

[mizbah]

One brother send me this ibaarath saying that ibn hajr says that the report(a majhool visiting prophet(peace be upon hom )'s grave during the time of Umar(r) is an evidence for seeking help from the dead .
Is there such a satatement from ibn hajr in the ibaarath ???

باب سُؤَالِ النَّاسِ الْإِمَامَ الِاسْتِسْقَاءَ إِذَا قَحَطُوا قوله: (باب سؤال الناس الإمام الاستسقاء إذا قحطوا) قال ابن رشيد: لو أدخل تحت هذه الترجمة حديث ابن مسعود الذي قبله لكان أوضح مما ذكر، انتهى، ويظهر لي أنه لما كان من سأل قد يكون مسلما وقد يكون مشركا وقد يكون من الفريقين، وكان في حديث ابن مسعود المذكور أن الذي سأل قد يكون مشركا، ناسب أن يذكر في الذي بعده ما يدل على ما إذا كان الطلب من الفريقين كما سأبينه، ولذلك ذكر لفظ الترجمة عاما لقوله " سؤال الناس " وذلك أن المصنف أورد في هذا الباب تمثل ابن عمر بشعر أبي طالب وقول أنس " إن عمر كان إذا قحطوا استسقى بالعباس " وقد اعترضه الإسماعيلي فقال: حديث ابن عمر خارج عن الترجمة، إذ ليس فيه أن أحدا سأله أن يستسقى له ولا في قصة العباس التي أوردها أيضا، وأجاب ابن المنير عن حديث ابن عمر بأن المناسبة تؤخذ من قوله فيه " يستسقى الغمام " لأن فاعله محذوف وهم الناس، وعن حديث أنس بأن في قول عمر" كنا نتوسل إليك بنبيك " دلالة على أن للإمام مدخلا في الاستسقاء، وتعقب بأنه لا يلزم من كون فاعل " يستسقى " هو الناس أن يكونوا سألوا الإمام أن يستسقى لهم كما في الترجمة، وكذا ليس في قول عمر أنهم كانوا يتوسلون به دلالة على أنهم سألوه أن يستسقى لهم، إذ يحتمل أن يكونوا في الحالين طلبوا السقيا من الله مستشفعين به صلى الله عليه وسلم، وقال ابن رشيد: يحتمل أن يكون أراد بالترجمة الاستدلال بطريق الأولى لأنهم إذا كانوا يسألون الله به فيسقيهم فأحرى أن يقدموه للسؤال، انتهى، وهو حسن ويمكن أن يكون أراد من حديث ابن عمر سياق الطريق الثانية عنه، وأن يبين أن الطريق الأولى مختصرة منها، وذلك أن لفظ الثانية " ربما ذكرت قول الشاعر وأنا أنظر إلى وجه النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم يستسقى فدل ذلك على أنه هو الذي باشر الطلب صلى الله عليه وسلم، وأن ابن عمر أشار إلى قصة وقعت في الإسلام حضرها هو لا مجرد ما دل عليه شعر أبي طالب، وقد علم من بقية الأحاديث أنه صلى الله عليه وسلم إنما استسقى إجابة لسؤال من سأله في ذلك كما في حديث ابن مسعود الماضي وفي حديث أنس الآتي وغيرهما من الأحاديث، وأوضح من ذلك ما أخرجه البيهقي في " الدلائل " من رواية مسلم الملائي عن أنس قال " جاء رجل أعرابي إلى النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال: يا رسول الله، أتيناك وما لنا بعير يئط، ولا صبي يغط، ثم أنشده شعرا يقول فيه: وليس لنـا إلا إليك فرارنا وأين فرار الناس إلا إلى الرسل فقام يجر رداءه حتى صعد المنبر فقال " اللهم اسقنا " الحديث وفيه " ثم قال صلى الله عليه وسلم: لو كان أبو طالب حيا لقرت عيناه، من ينشدنا قوله فقام علي فقال: يا رسول الله، كأنك أردت قوله " وأبيض يستسقى الغمام بوجهه " الأبيات، فظهرت بذلك مناسبة حديث ابن عمر للترجمة، وإسناد حديث أنس وإن كان فيه ضعف لكنه يصلح للمتابعة، وقد ذكره ابن هشام في زوائده في السيرة تعليقا عمن يثق به، وقوله "يئط " بفتح أوله وكسر الهمزة وكذا " يغط " بالمعجمة، والأطيط صوت البعير المثقل، والغطيط صوت النائم كذلك، وكني بذلك عن شدة الجوع، لأنهما إنما يقعان غالبا عند الشبع، وأما حديث أنس عن عمر فأشار به أيضا إلى ما ورد في بعض طرقه، وهو عند الإسماعيلي من رواية محمد بن المثنى عن الأنصاري بإسناد البخاري إلى أنس قال " كانوا إذا قحطوا على عهد النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم استسقوا به، فيستسقى لهم فيسقون فلما كان في إمارة عمر " فذكر الحديث، وقد أشار إلى ذلك الإسماعيلي فقال: هذا الذي رويته يحتمل المعنى الذي ترجمه، بخلاف ما أورده هو: قلت: وليس ذلك بمبتدع، لما عرف بالاستقراء من عادته من الاكتفاء بالإشارة إلى ما ورد في بعض طرق الحديث الذي يورده، وقد روى عبد الرزاق من حديث ابن عباس " أن عمر استسقى بالمصلى، فقال للعباس: قم فأستسق، فقام العباس " فذكر الحديث، فتبين بهذا أن في القصة المذكورة أن العباس كان مسئولا وأنه ينزل منزلة الإمام إذا أمره الإمام بذلك، وروى ابن أبي شيبة بإسناد صحيح من رواية أبي صالح السمان عن مالك الداري - وكان خازن عمر - قال " أصاب الناس قحط في زمن عمر فجاء رجل إلى قبر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم صلى الله عليه وسلم فقال: يا رسول الله استسق لأمتك فإنهم قد هلكوا، فأتى الرجل في المنام فقيل له: ائت عمر " الحديث، وقد روى سيف في الفتوح أن الذي رأى المنام المذكور هو بلال بن الحارث المزني أحد الصحابة، وظهر بهذا كله مناسبة الترجمة لأصل هذه القصة أيضا والله الموفق. (فتح الباري
)

[abu hafs]

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=2242

“And they worship besides Allâh things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allâh." Say: "Do you inform Allâh of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?" Glorified and Exalted be He above all that which they associate as partners with Him!”[10:18]

Imaam Razi said in his tafseer

“They(the polytheists) made these idols in the likeness of their prophets and elders. and they claimed that when they busy themselves with worship of these statues ,the elders will become their intercessors with Allah .Similar to them in this time are the actions of many people who busy themselves with glorification of graves of the elders(/great men) with the belief that when they glorify their graves(of the righteous) they will be their intercessors with Allah"[Tafseerul Kabeer]


{ وَيَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ مَا لاَ يَضُرُّهُمْ وَلاَ يَنفَعُهُمْ وَيَقُولُونَ هَـٰؤُلاۤءِ شُفَعَاؤُنَا عِندَ ٱللَّهِ قُلْ أَتُنَبِّئُونَ ٱللَّهَ بِمَا لاَ يَعْلَمُ فِي ٱلسَّمَاوَاتِ وَلاَ فِي ٱلأَرْضِ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ }

ورابعها: أنهم وضعوا هذه الأصنام والأوثان على صور أنبيائهم وأكابرهم، وزعموا أنهم متى اشتغلوا بعبادة هذه التماثيل، فإن أولئك الأكابر تكون شفعاء لهم عند الله تعالى، ونظيره في هذا الزمان اشتغال كثير من الخلق بتعظيم قبور الأكابر، على اعتقاد أنهم إذا عظموا قبورهم فإنهم يكونون شفعاء لهم عند الله.

I realise that the above is not exactly tawassul , but its closely related and a similar controversial topic in the "debate" ....

[joefso]

I don't know Imam Razi, who is he?

I used altafsir.com:


* تفسير Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs
Recite Verse
Open in new window
Go to quran page
{ وَيَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ مَا لاَ يَضُرُّهُمْ وَلاَ يَنفَعُهُمْ وَيَقُولُونَ هَـٰؤُلاۤءِ شُفَعَاؤُنَا عِندَ ٱللَّهِ قُلْ أَتُنَبِّئُونَ ٱللَّهَ بِمَا لاَ يَعْلَمُ فِي ٱلسَّمَاوَاتِ وَلاَ فِي ٱلأَرْضِ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ }

(They worship) i.e. the disbelievers of Mecca (beside Allah that which neither hurteth them) in this life or in the Hereafter, if they did not worship it, (nor profiteth them) in this life or in the Hereafter if they worshipped it, (and they say: These) i.e. these idols (are our intercessors) which will intercede for us (with Allah. Say) to them, O Muhammad: (Would ye inform Allah of (something) that He knoweth not in the heavens or in the earth) i.e. He knows there does not exist a god who hurts and benefits except Him? (Praised be He) He exalted Himself far above having a son or partner (and high exalted above) and absolves Himself from (all that ye associate (with Him)) of idols!



* تفسير Tafsir al-Jalalayn
Recite Verse
Open in new window
Go to quran page
{ وَيَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ مَا لاَ يَضُرُّهُمْ وَلاَ يَنفَعُهُمْ وَيَقُولُونَ هَـٰؤُلاۤءِ شُفَعَاؤُنَا عِندَ ٱللَّهِ قُلْ أَتُنَبِّئُونَ ٱللَّهَ بِمَا لاَ يَعْلَمُ فِي ٱلسَّمَاوَاتِ وَلاَ فِي ٱلأَرْضِ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ }

And they worship, besides God, that is, other than Him, that which can neither hurt them, should they not worship it, nor profit them, if they do worship it - and these are the idols; and they say, of them: 'These are our intercessors with God.' Say, to them: 'Would you tell, would you inform, God of what He does not know in the heavens or in the earth?' (the interrogative is meant as a disavowal), for if He had a partner, He [Himself] would know it, since nothing can be hidden from Him. Glory be to Him!, in [affirmation of] His transcendence, and High be He exalted above what they associate! with Him.


This is interesting, however, can we regard `'dead'` people as idols?

[joefso]

are there any online English tafsir of qurtubi or tabari available?

[joefso]

brother abu hafs why does it say Wahhabi beneath your nick?

[Abuz Zubair]

I got this from Sharh of nuniyya of Ibn al-Qayyim by Ibn 'Isa al-Najdi. Jawharat al-Tawheed states that they regard the soul to be a body and not an accident. However, Ibn al-Qayyim states in Kitab al-Ruh that al-Baqillani and his followers from the Ash'aris regarded the soul to be an accident.

[Abuz Zubair]

One brother send me this ibaarath saying that ibn hajr says that the report(a majhool visiting prophet(peace be upon hom )'s grave during the time of Umar(r) is an evidence for seeking help from the dead .
The brother most probably does not know Arabic, let alone science of hadeeth, not to mention tawheed which is why he said to you what he said.

Ibn Hajar, in the quote you provided, never states that this is an evidence for seeking help from the dead. How could he, when this is the deen of the pagans?!

The paragraph above is reconciling the chapter heading with the narration al-Bukhari mentions because some said that the narration does not correspond with the chapter heading. So Ibn Hajar is proving that the origin of the narration clearly corresponds with the chapter, and to that end he brings many narrations about people asking the Imam to make dua for rain.

Amongst the narrations he mentions is the hadeeth of Malik al-Dar and he says concerning it:

وروى ابن أبي شيبة بإسناد صحيح من رواية أبي صالح السمان عن مالك الداري - وكان خازن عمر - قال

"Ibn Abi Shayba narrated with Sahih chain from the narration of Abu Salih b. al-Siman, via Malik al-Dari (which should be Malik al-Dar) - who was the treasurer of 'Umar - who said:"

So here, Ibn Hajar declares the chain to be Sahih upto Abu Salih, excluding Malik al-Dar about whom he says: he was 'umar's treasurer, without saying anything about him in terms of Jarh or Ta'dil.

So this indicates strength of the report from Ibn Abi Shayba to Abu Salih, but weakness thereafter due to the Jahala of Malik al-Dar and the person to see the dream (i.e. 2 majhuls)

He then says:

، وقد روى سيف في الفتوح أن الذي رأى المنام المذكور هو بلال بن الحارث المزني أحد الصحابة

"Sayf narrated in al-Futuh that the one mentioned who saw the dream was Bilal b. al-Harith al-Muzani, one of the Companions"

Even here, Ibn Hajar does not comment, either negatively or positively, on whether or not Sayf's narration is correct.

In fact, Ibn Hajar himself in his Taqrib declares Sayf b. 'Umar to be weak (dha'if), and Shu'ayb al-Arna'ut corrects Ibn hajar and says: in fact he is matruk, and not just dha'if. Ibn Hibban even went as far as saying he was accused of zandaqa!

So the bottom line is, Ibn Hajar does not declare te whole incident to be authentic. Rather, he only considers the chain up to Abu Salih to be Sahih.

[abu hafs]

I used altafsir.com

So did I ,


however, can we regard `'dead'` people as idols?

Yes, ofcourse , nobody worships the idols themselves , they worship what it represents. Idols have a story behind them and all of them were great men who led pious lives and shaytan caused them to exxagerate in their praise for the dead and consequently led them to worship them.



I don't know Imam Razi, who is he?

He was one of the greatest asha'ri theologians ....they refer to him as Sheikhul Islam and sometimes Mujaddid.

<!-- / icon and title --> <!-- message --> brother abu hafs why does it say Wahhabi beneath your nick?

just for laughs .

[joefso]

I got this from Sharh of nuniyya of Ibn al-Qayyim by Ibn 'Isa al-Najdi. Jawharat al-Tawheed states that they regard the soul to be a body and not an accident. However, Ibn al-Qayyim states in Kitab al-Ruh that al-Baqillani and his followers from the Ash'aris regarded the soul to be an accident.

Can you show me daliel?

[joefso]

So did I ,
I didn't notice any other tafsirs other then the two I posted.


Yes, ofcourse , nobody worships the idols themselves , they worship what it represents. Idols have a story behind them and all of them were great men who led pious lives and shaytan caused them to exxagerate in their praise for the dead and consequently led them to worship them.

Well I can see a difference. A idol is a, graven image, god (a material effigy that is worshipped) "thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image"; "money was his god". So can I assume that it is that from this point of view a idol is worshiped themself?

However in Islamic context(ofcourse) I can distignuish one person who is slain in path of Allaah and one person who is dead(kafir dead). One who can hear and who can't.

Qatadah reported that Anas ibn Malik said, "The Prophet, peace be upon him, said, 'When a human is laid in his grave and his companions return and he hears their footsteps, two angels will come to him and make him sit and ask him, "What did you say about this man, Muhammad, may peace be upon him?" He will say, "I testify that he is Allah's servant and His Messenger." Then it will be said to him, "Look at your place in Hell-Fire. Allah has exchanged for you a place in Paradise instead of it".' The Prophet, peace be upon him, added, 'The dead person will see both his places. As for a non-believer or a hypocrite, he will respond to the angels, "I do not know, but I used to say what the people used to say ! " It will be said to him, "Neither did you know nor did you seek guidance from those who had knowledge." Then he will be hit with an iron hammer between his two ears, and he will cry and that cry will be heard by all except human beings and jinns'." (Bukhari and Muslim)

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/law/fiqhussunnah/fus4_63.html

However I'm unable verify formyself, perhaps you could?



He was one of the greatest asha'ri theologians ....they refer to him as Sheikhul Islam and sometimes Mujaddid.

I see


just for laughs .

[abu hafs]

I didn't notice any other tafsirs other then the two I posted.

I quoted from the arabic section.I saw the translation of the quote in another book i have , i verified it from the site, since the site is praised by sunnipath people


Well I can see a difference. A idol is a, graven image, god (a material effigy that is worshipped

A graven image of what exactly ..a pious man , not just any man but one who is known to be close to god or having some divine attributes at the least .
It doesnt matter whether u call it a god , wali , qutub ,abdal ,sufi or anything else . What matters is that the the actions done and the attributes attributed to them are the same .

One example i could give us is hindus worship idols ...and some of them who strive in worship and meditation of god are believed to have visions where the god represented by the idols comes to them and grants them what they were seeking or something like that ... the point to understand is that when krishna is worshipped ,they worship him because he was such and such man with noble qualities so NO , u cant assume that
they worship the stone .


However in Islamic context(ofcourse) I can distignuish one person who is slain in path of Allaah and one person who is dead(kafir dead). One who can hear and who can't.

This is actually something the salaf disagreed over ...but they never disagreed on the fact that u could ask the dead for something simply because nothing like that is narrated from them and its not found in any early fiqh books .


However I'm unable verify formyself, perhaps you could?

What exactly ?

[joefso]

I quoted from the arabic section.I saw the translation of the quote in another book i have , i verified it from the site, since the site is praised by sunnipath people


I use sunnipath to now and then, but who are these sunnipath people, are they active on the forum here?


A graven image of what exactly ..a pious man , not just any man but one who is known to be close to god or having some divine attributes at the least .
It doesnt matter whether u call it a god , wali , qutub ,abdal ,sufi or anything else . What matters is that the the actions done and the attributes attributed to them are the same .

So this is shirk(?):

Sahih al-Bukhari Hadith: 5.59
Narrated Anas:

Whenever there was drought, 'Umar bin Al-Khattab used to ask Allah for
rain through Al-'Abbas bin 'Abdul Muttalib, saying, "O Allah! We used
^^^^^^^
to request our Prophet to ask You for rain, and You would give us. Now
we request the uncle of our Prophet to ask You for rain, so give us
rain." And they would be given rain."

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/5.html


One example i could give us is hindus worship idols ...and some of them who strive in worship and meditation of god are believed to have visions where the god represented by the idols comes to them and grants them what they were seeking or something like that ... the point to understand is that when krishna is worshipped ,they worship him because he was such and such man with noble qualities so NO , u cant assume that they worship the stone .

Don't hindu's believe that krishna is god, incarnated? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krishna


This is actually something the salaf disagreed over ...but they never disagreed on the fact that u could ask the dead for something simply because nothing like that is narrated from them and its not found in any early fiqh books .


perhaps we could get a definition who is dead and who is not? I mean I noticed that salafis say they are dead and suffis(or sunni, what they say they are) say their alife, because they are slain in path of Allaah.


What exactly ?


ps: djazak Allaah for sharing such information.

Wa'alaykoem assalaamu

[knowrass]

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter6b/5.html



al-islam.org is a shii'a website.

[joefso]

al-islam.org is a shii'a website.

i see, but they quote sahih bukhari, is the quote forged?

*edit*

another flavor is found on http://www.livingislam.org/o/twua_e.html . Seems that shia borrowed and edited stuff here and there.

[joefso]

brother zubair, perhaps you didn't find time yet to respond to my message, InshAllaah you will.

[abu hafs]

Bro iam a bit busy..hows the quote from Bukhari proof at all ..Its asking a person to make du'a for you while he is able to do it . how is it even shirk .Why would u think we consider it shirk?
I could even quote that as evidence against what u are trying to prove because the hadith clearly states "O Allah! We used to request our Prophet to ask You for rain..", "used to" or in arabic "Inna Kunna" is clearly past tense , it is something they did in the past and they donot do it any more ...what does that tell u ?

[Abuz Zubair]

brother joesfo, sorry I didn't understand your question

[joefso]

Bro iam a bit busy..hows the quote from Bukhari proof at all ..Its asking a person to make du'a for you while he is able to do it . how is it even shirk .Why would u think we consider it shirk?
I could even quote that as evidence against what u are trying to prove because the hadith clearly states "O Allah! We used to request our Prophet to ask You for rain..", "used to" or in arabic "Inna Kunna" is clearly past tense , it is something they did in the past and they donot do it any more ...what does that tell u ?

If you look at the livingislam page you see:

"O Allah! We would use our Prophet as a means to You and You then sent us rain; now we use our Prophet's uncle as a means to You, therefore send us rain!"

Narrated from Anas by al-Bukhari in his Sahih.

“Whoever understands from this that `Umar only used al-`Abbas as his means and not the Messenger of Allah, upon him peace, because al-`Abbas is alive and the Messenger of Allah is dead – that person’s understanding is dead.” (Al-Maliki)

Al-Suyuti mentions the context of this event in his Tarikh al-Khulafa' (Beirut, 1992 Ahmad Fares ed. p. 140):

"In the year 17 `Umar enlarged the Prophetic mosque. That year there was a drought in the Hijaz. It was named the Year of Cinders (`am al-ramada). `Umar prayed for rain for the people by means of al-`Abbas. Ibn Sa`d narrated from [the Sahabi] Niyar al-Aslami that when `Umar came came out to pray for rain, he came out wearing the cloaks (burd) of the Messenger of Allah, upon him blessings and peace. Ibn `Awn narrated that `Umar took al-`Abbas's hand and raised it up, saying, 'O Allah, we seek a means to You with the uncle of Your Prophet to ask that You drive away from us the drought and water us with rain'...."

...

[abu hafs]

“Whoever understands from this that `Umar only used al-`Abbas as his means and not the Messenger of Allah, upon him peace, because al-`Abbas is alive and the Messenger of Allah is dead – that person’s understanding is dead.” (Al-Maliki)


Whos this " Al-Maliki" ..do u know ?
Hes not some early maliki scholar ...but some one who passed away less than 10 years ago and he was extensively refuted by many scholars .. I could quote Ibn Taymiyya / Albani and say Maliki's understanding is baatil , but does that prove ANYTHING. ...NOTHING ..same as ur quote.


The hadith clearly states " Inna Kunna Natawassalu.." which translates as " We USED TO SEEK tawassul ...." what more do u need to show that the sahaba made a difference ?

The next quote from Suyuti again proves NOTHING , Yes Ahlul Bait have a special status in Islam , the righteous ones among them are among the best of Muslims and nothing more.

[Um Abdullah M.]

taken from a post in sunnforum regarding translation of hadith in sahih Bukhari regarding tawwasul by al-Abbas

---------------------------------------------------------
===========================

The person who wrote this must have not read the sharh of this hadith, and he only depended on the words of the hadith itself, and doesn't know the full story of what happened.

Dr. Muhsin Khan doesn't translate the words of the hadith however one understands it, he looks at the sharh of the hadith then translates it so his translation would be correct.

same with the translation of the meaning of the Quran, he looks at the tafsir before translating it.

now lets look at ur accusation, if it is correct or wrong.

Once when there was a severe drought, Hadhrat Umar (radhiyallahu anhu), the then Khalifah, supplicated to Allah Ta’ala by the Waseelah of Hadhrat Abbaas (radhiyallahu anhu), the paternal uncle of Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam). Narrating this fact, Hadhrat Anas (radhiyallahu anhu) said:
“When it used to be drought, then Umar Bin Khattaab (radhiyallahu anhu) would supplicate for rain through the medium of Abbaas Bin Abdul Muttalib (radhiyallahuanhu). He would say,
“O Allah! Verily, we used to invoke the waseelah of our Nabi to You and You bestowed rain to us. (Now) we invoke you by virtue of the uncle of our Nabi. Therefore, bestow rain to us.” He (Anas) said: Then rain was bestowed to them.” (Bukhaari)

This Hadith recorded by Imaam Bukhaari (rahmatullah alayh) state with clarity that Hadhrat Umar (radhiyallahu anhu) would supplicate to Allah Ta’ala through the medium (waseelah) of Hadhrat Abbaas (radhiyallahu anhu). Besides this Hadith, there are many other narrations which confirm the validity of waseelah.

However, the misguided Salafis have attempted to circumvent this authentic Hadith by presenting an erroneous translation. Mr.Mohsin Khan the Salafi who translated Bukhaari Shareef into English, committed errors in both the translation of the Hadih and its commentary. Translating the Hadith, he states:

“(Narrated Anas—radhiyallahu anhu): Whenever drought threatened them, Umar bin Al-Khattab (radhiyallaahu anhu) used to ask Al-Abbas bin Abdul Muttalib (radhiyallahu anhu) to invoke Allah for rain. He used to say: “O Allah! We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain, and You would bless us with rain, and now we ask his uncle to invoke You for rain. O Allah!Bless us with rain. And so it would rain.” (Page 285, Vol. 1 Dr.M.Muhsin Khan’s translation of Bukhaari Shareef)

This translation is incorrect. Nowhere in this Hadith is it mentioned, “Used to ask”. In this particular Hadith Hadhrat Umar (radhiyallahu anhu) did not ‘ask’ Hadhrat Abbaas (radhiyallahu anhu) to ‘invoke Allah for rain’. He (Umar), himself made the dua for rain, hence he clearly supplicated: “O Allah! Through the (waseelah) of the uncle of our Nabi, bestow rain to us.”
Also, Hadhrat Umar (radhiyallahu anhu) did not say: “We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain.” This translation is completely wrong. The Hadith states with great clarity that Hadhrat Umar (radhiyallahu anhu) said: “We would through the medium of our Nabi supplicate to You…”

The Salafis have conveniently mis-translated this Hadith in their attempt to refute the validity of the concept of Waseelah. This is a blatantly baseless and deceptive way to squeeze out evidence for the baseless claim that Waseelah is shirk.


lets see the Arabic text of the hadith in sahih al-Bukhari rahimahu Allah:
نْ أَنَسٍ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ
أَنَّ عُمَرَ بْنَ الْخَطَّابِ كَانَ إِذَا قَحَطُوا اسْتَسْقَى بِالْعَبَّاسِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الْمُطَّلِبِ فَقَالَ اللَّهُمَّ إِنَّا كُنَّا نَتَوَسَّلُ إِلَيْكَ بِنَبِيِّنَا صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فَتَسْقِينَا وَإِنَّا نَتَوَسَّلُ إِلَيْكَ بِعَمِّ نَبِيِّنَا فَاسْقِنَا قَالَ فَيُسْقَوْنَ

now the word "tawassul" can have different meanings, it could be by his dhat or jah, or it could be by his supplication.
how do we know which one?
through evidance either from another hadith which gives more detail on the story or through the understanding of the Salaf, through reading what is said in the sharh (explanation) of the hadith.

Lets see what Imam Ibn Hajar rahimahu Allah said in his sharh of sahih al-Bukhari (Fath al-Bari) regarding this hadith:وَقَدْ بَيَّنَ الزُّبَيْر بْن بَكَّار فِي الْأَنْسَاب صِفَة مَا دَعَا بِهِ الْعَبَّاس فِي هَذِهِ الْوَاقِعَة وَالْوَقْت الَّذِي وَقَعَ فِيهِ ذَلِكَ ، فَأَخْرَجَ بِإِسْنَادٍ لَهُ أَنَّ الْعَبَّاس لَمَّا اِسْتَسْقَى بِهِ عُمَر قَالَ " اللَّهُمَّ إِنَّهُ لَمْ يَنْزِل بَلَاء إِلَّا بِذَنْبٍ ، وَلَمْ يُكْشَف إِلَّا بِتَوْبَةٍ ، وَقَدْ تَوَجَّهَ الْقَوْم بِي إِلَيْك لِمَكَانِي مِنْ نَبِيّك ، وَهَذِهِ أَيْدِينَا إِلَيْك بِالذُّنُوبِ وَنَوَاصِينَا إِلَيْك بِالتَّوْبَةِ فَاسْقِنَا الْغَيْث . فَأَرْخَتْ السَّمَاء مِثْل الْجِبَال حَتَّى أَخْصَبَتْ الْأَرْض ، وَعَاشَ النَّاس "

and az-Zubair bin Bakkar showed in the ansab the description of the duaa of al-Abbas in this incident and the time in which that happened.
He narrated with his isnad that al Abbas, when Umar did istisqa' through him, said: "Oh Allah, no trial has come down except by a sin, and it is not removed except with a tawbah (repentance), and the people have turned to you through me for my place/status in regards to your Prophets, and these are our hands .... (not sure how to translate the rest of the hadith, maybe someone can help in translation here).

This is evidance that al-Abbas did duaa in this incident, and their istisqa' was through the duaa of al-Abbas radiyallahu anhu.


He also said in the begining of that chapter :
وَهُوَ عِنْد الْإِسْمَاعِيلِيّ مِنْ رِوَايَة مُحَمَّد بْن الْمُثَنَّى عَنْ الْأَنْصَارِيّ بِإِسْنَادِ الْبُخَارِيّ إِلَى أَنَس قَالَ " كَانُوا إِذَا قَحَطُوا عَلَى عَهْد النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ اِسْتَسْقَوْا بِهِ ، فَيَسْتَسْقِي لَهُمْ فَيُسْقَوْنَ فَلَمَّا كَانَ فِي إِمَارَة عُمَر " فَذَكَرَ الْحَدِيث .
......................
وَقَدْ رَوَى عَبْد الرَّزَّاق مِنْ حَدِيث اِبْن عَبَّاس " أَنَّ عُمَر اِسْتَسْقَى بِالْمُصَلَّى ، فَقَالَ لِلْعَبَّاسِ : قُمْ فَاسْتَسْقِ ،
فَقَامَ الْعَبَّاس " فَذَكَرَ الْحَدِيث ، فَتَبَيَّنَ بِهَذَا أَنَّ فِي الْقِصَّة الْمَذْكُورَة أَنَّ الْعَبَّاس كَانَ مَسْئُولًا وَأَنَّهُ يُنَزَّل مَنْزِلَة الْإِمَام إِذَا أَمَرَهُ الْإِمَام بِذَلِكَ

and it is with al-Islamaili from the narration of Muhammad bin alMuthanna 'an al-Ansari with the isnad of al-bukhari to Anas, (Anas) said: "Whenever drought befell them in the time of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, they did istisqa' through him, so he would do istisqa' from them, and they get rain, and when it was the rule of Umar.." then he mentioned the hadith.
...............................
and Abd ar-Razzaq narrated from the hadith of Ibn Abbas: " Umar made istisqa in the musalla , so he (Umar) said to al-Abbas (radiyallahu anhum): get up and do istisqa', so al-Abbas (radiyallahu anhu) got up.." and he mentioned the hadith...

we can see from this that Prophet Muhammd sallallahu alayhi wa sallam used to do istisqa' for them by his duaa.
and that Umar radiyallahu anhu during his khilafah, in this incident, he asked al-Abbas radiyallahu anhu to do istisqa' for them.



and the muhaddith Muhammad Anwar shah kashmiri said in his sharh of this hadith in sahih al-Bukhari (faidul Bari):

قوله: (اللهُمَّ أَنَّا كُنَّا نَتَوَسَّلُ إليك بِنَبِيِّنَا صلى الله عليه وسلّم ليس فيه التوسلُ المعهودُ الذي يكون بالغائب حتى قد لايكون به شعورٌ أصلا، بل فيه توسُّلُ السَّلف، وهو أن يُقَدِّم رجلا وذا وجاهةٍ عند الله تعالى ويأمرَه أن يدعو لهم، ثم يحيل عليه في دعائه، كما فُعل بالعبَّاس رضي الله عنه عَمِّ النبيِّ صلى الله عليه وسلّم ولو كان فيه توسُّلُ المتأخرين لما احتاجوا إلى إِذْهَاب العبّاس رضي الله عنه معهم، ولكفى لهم التوسُّل بنبيهم بعد وفاتِه أيضًا، أو بالعباس رضي الله عنه مع عدمِ شهوده معهم.

His saying: (Oh Allah we used to do tawassul through our Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam) doesn't mean the tawassul that is known that is by the abscent, and no feeling might even be with it, but in it is the tawassul of the Salaf, which is to bring forward a man with a wajaha 'endallah (not sure how to translate it) and to order him to make duaa for them (then he mentions him in his duaa?? maybe someone can help me translate this part) like was done with al-Abbas radiyallahu anhu, the uncle of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, and if it included the tawassul of the later ones (the khalaf) , they wouldnt' have needed to let al Abbas go with them, and it would have been enough for them to do tawassul through their Prophet after his death also, or through al-Abbas radiyallahu anhu with him not being present with them.


all of this is evidance that the accuser's translation is wrong, and that his accusation of Dr Muhsin Khan's translation is false.
and that he needs to study the sharh of the hadiths before accusing others of making wrong translations.
and making a wrong translation himself.

==================================
------------------------------------------------------------------

[justabro]

on a hunch, i checked out Umdat al-Qari and this is what I found:

مطابقته للترجمة في قول عمر إنا كنا نتوسل إليك بنبينا إلى آخره بيانه أنهم كانوا إذا استسقوا كانوا يستسقون بالنبي في حياته وبعده استسقى عمر بمن معه بالعباس عم النبي فجعلوه كالإمام الذي يسأل فيه لأنه كان أمس الناس بالنبي وأقربهم إليه رحما فأراد عمر أن يصلها ليتصل بها إلى من كان يأمر بصلة الأرحام وعن كعب الأحبار أن بني إسرائيل كانوا إذا قحطوا استسقوا بأهل بيت نبيهم وزعم ابن قدامة أن ذلك كان عام الرمادة وذكر ابن سعد وغيره أن عام الرمادة كان سنة ثماني عشرة وكان ابتداؤه مصدر الحاج منها ودام تسعة أشهر والرمادة بفتح الراء وتخفيف الميم سمي العام بها لما حصل من شدة الجدب فاغبرت الأرض من عدم المطر وذكر سيف في ( كتاب الردة ) عن أبي سلمة كان أبو بكر الصديق إذا بعث جندا إلى أهل الردة خرج ليشيعهم وخرج بالعباس معه قال يا عباس استنصر وأنا أؤمن فإني أرجو أن لا يخيب دعوتك لمكانك من نبي الله وذكر الإمام أبو القاسم ابن عساكر في ( كتاب الاستسقاء ) من حديث إبراهيم بن محمد عن حسين بن عبد الله عن عكرمة عن ابن عباس أن العباس قال ذلك اليوم اللهم إن عندك سحابا وإن عندك ماء فانشر السحاب ثم أنزل منه الماء ثم أنزله علينا واشدد به الأصل وأطل به الفرع وأدر به الضرع اللهم شفعنا إليك عمن لا منطق له من بهايمنا وأنعامنا اللهم إسقنا سقيا وادعة بالغة طبقا مجيبا اللهم لا نرغب إلا إليك وحدك لا شريك لك اللهم إنا نشكوا أليك سغب كل ساغب وعدم كل عادم وجوع كل جائع وعري كل عار
وخوف كل خائف وفي حديث أبي صالح فلما صعد عمر ومعه العباس المنبر قال عمر رضي الله تعالى عنه اللهم إنا توجهنا إليك بعم نبيك وصنو أبيه فاسقنا الغيث ولا تجعلنا من القانطين ثم قال قل يا أبا الفضل فقال العباس اللهم لم ينزل بلاء إلا بذنب ولم يكشف إلا بتوبة وقد توجه بي القوم إليك لمكاني من نبيك وهذه أيدينا إليك بالذنوب ونواصينا بالتوبة فاسقنا الغيث قال فأرخت السماء شآبيب مثل الجبال حتى أخصبت الأرض وعاش الناس

He also interprets it as al-Abbas making du'a. He supports that with a narration that Abu Bakr used to ask al-Abbas to make du'a for victory when sending out armies and saying Amin to his dua's. Finally, he mentions that ibn Asakir has reported the actual du'a made by Abbas and its a lengthy one.

I thought I should go ahead and mention this as this is one of the other most important commentaries on bukhari besides Fath al-Bari and so it just adds strength to the case for Dr. Muhsin Khan.

[Abu_Abdallah]

I think the issue is about Ibn Hajar's stance concerning these matters. We all agree that the Hadith of Malik al-Dar is weak. And I guess we all agree how the 'Abbas-tradition should be understood correctly, insha'Allah. Even if one adds to it the 'explanatory' narrations from the likes of Zubayr b. Bakkar and others - which are by the way very weak according to 'Amr Abd al-Mun'im Salim's Takrij of all these narrations (in Hadam al-Manara).

Sister Asmaa, I will come back on what Kindu and others stated about the Hafidh - Insha'Allah

[joefso]

Whos this " Al-Maliki" ..do u know ?
Hes not some early maliki scholar ...but some one who passed away less than 10 years ago and he was extensively refuted by many scholars .. I could quote Ibn Taymiyya / Albani and say Maliki's understanding is baatil , but does that prove ANYTHING. ...NOTHING ..same as ur quote.


I don't know them nor do I dare to speak ill of any scholar. i havn't spend my whole life dedicated to Al-Islam.


The hadith clearly states " Inna Kunna Natawassalu.." which translates as " We USED TO SEEK tawassul ...." what more do u need to show that the sahaba made a difference ?

I don't know Arabic, but I can read English brother, I read for example to:



Tawassul of `Umar
through al-`Abbas
(Allah be pleased with them)

As-Salamu `alaykum:
How do the contemporary Hanafi scholars explain the hadeeth recorded in Sahih Al-Bukhari according to which Khalifah Umar (Allah be pleased with him) asked Ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him) to ask Allah for rain on behalf of the Muslim community and not the Prophet Muhammad MHMD at his grave. The Khalifah said that they USED to ask the Prophet Muhammad MHMD to ask Allah and now they ask his uncle instead.

Before turning to the question and its questionable premises some preliminary remarks are in order.

First of all, `Umar asked al-`Abbas ibn `Abd al-Muttalib, not his son `Abd Allah ibn `Abbas. What was posted recently on the Hanbali forum is a mistake which I pointed out to the author.

Second, the terminology of the Khalifa's request, Allah be well-pleased with him, is as follows:

"O Allah! We would use our Prophet as a means to You and You then sent us rain; now we use our Prophet's uncle as a means to You, therefore send us rain!"

Narrated from Anas by al-Bukhari in his Sahih.

“Whoever understands from this that `Umar only used al-`Abbas as his means and not the Messenger of Allah, upon him peace, because al-`Abbas is alive and the Messenger of Allah is dead – that person’s understanding is dead.” (Al-Maliki)

Al-Suyuti mentions the context of this event in his Tarikh al-Khulafa' (Beirut, 1992 Ahmad Fares ed. p. 140):

"In the year 17 `Umar enlarged the Prophetic mosque. That year there was a drought in the Hijaz. It was named the Year of Cinders (`am al-ramada). `Umar prayed for rain for the people by means of al-`Abbas. Ibn Sa`d narrated from [the Sahabi] Niyar al-Aslami that when `Umar came came out to pray for rain, he came out wearing the cloaks (burd) of the Messenger of Allah, upon him blessings and peace. Ibn `Awn narrated that `Umar took al-`Abbas's hand and raised it up, saying, 'O Allah, we seek a means to You with the uncle of Your Prophet to ask that You drive away from us the drought and water us with rain'...."

Now, the event of the tawassul of Sayyiduna `Umar through al-`Abbas shows the following:

[1] Nowhere in the hadith is there any indication that there was no tawassul through the Prophet MHMD upon him peace, in the time of `Umar. Such a view is an inference or an extrapolation that is not based on explicit evidence.

[2] On the contrary, `Umar implicitly made tawassul through the Prophet MHMD upon him peace, at that very time, by wearing his blessed cloaks as he came out for the prayer for rain as mentioned in the report by Ibn Sa`d. In Sahih Muslim Asma' says that she inherited the mantle of the Prophet from her sister `A'isha and that they used it to seek a cure for people.

[3] The use of the Prophet's uncle illustrates that tawassul is essentially through the Prophet MHMD upon him peace, as the importance of al-`Abbas in this respect is only in his relationship to the Prophet as `Umar himself states with the words "the uncle of Your Prophet" in al-Bukhari's version already mentioned; "the status of al-`Abbas in relation to your Prophet" in al-Lalika'i's version; and as al-`Abbas states:

"O Allah, truly no tribulation descends except because of sins, nor is lifted except upon repentence. The people have turned to you by means of me BECAUSE OF MY POSITION IN RELATION TO YOUR PROPHET, and here are our hands [raised up] towards you - despite our sins - and our forelocks in repentence, so send down water for us and PRESERVE YOUR PROPHET IN THE PERSON OF HIS UNCLE." Whereupon the sky let down water as thick as ropes and the people came over to al-`Abbas passing their hands over him and saying to him: “Congratulations to you, irrigator of the two Sanctuaries!” Whereupon `Umar said, “He/This is, by Allah, the means to Allah and the place of nearness to Him!”

Cited from al-Zubayr ibn Bakkar's narration in al-Ansab by Ibn Hajar in Fath al-Bari (2:497).

So the tawassul continues to be solely through the Prophet MHMD despite appearances to the contrary, for he is the ultimate recourse of human beings seeking nearness to Allah as he himself taught the blind man (“Say, ‘O Muhammad, I turn with you to Allah…’”) and as several Sahaba explicitly said, such as in the following reports:

(a) Report of the Bedouin who said to the Holy Prophet MHMD:

We have come to you when even our virgins' milk is dry, and the mother worries for her own life over her child's, The child lets down his arms sitting still For hunger, a hunger unstilled and uninterrupted. We have nothing left from what our people eat Except bitter colocynth and camel-wool mixed with blood. And we have none but you to flee to, for where can people flee except to the Messengers?

Then the Prophet MHMD - upon him peace - stood up and he was dragging his garment. He climbed up the pulpit and said: "O Allah, send us water...." whereupon rain fell abundantly. Then the Prophet MHMD upon him peace said: "If Abu Talib were alive he would have liked to see this. Who will recite for us what he said?" Hearing this, `Ali stood up and said: "O Messenger of Allah, I think you mean his saying:

A fair-skinned one by whose face rainclouds are sought, A caretaker for the orphans and protector of widows. With him the clan of Hashim seek refuge from calamities, For they possess in him immense favor and grace...."

Narrated by al-Bayhaqi in Dala'il al-Nubuwwa (6:141) cf. Ibn Kathir, al-Bidaya wal-Nihaya (6:90-91) and Ibn Hajar, Fath al-Bari (1989 ed. 2:629).

(b) Report of Sawad ibn Qarib al-Sadusi who declaimed:

etc...




The next quote from Suyuti again proves NOTHING , Yes Ahlul Bait have a special status in Islam , the righteous ones among them are among the best of Muslims and nothing more.


Well I find suyuti verry good, I don' understand how it proofs nothing, does anyone here claim he is better then Suyuti? I mean, whom of us would make mistake sooner he or us?

Anyway brother, your blessed with Arabic, I'm not. Alhamdoeliah.

[Um Abdullah M.]

Joefso
did u even read my post?

also it was still by the duaa of al-Abbas, not by his dhat or jah.
and yes it was because of his relation to the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam that he was choosen, but it was still by his duaa and he was alive.

reread my post and see the comment by shaikh al-kashmiri in his sharh of sahih al-Bukhari.

[joefso]

Dr Muhsin Khan's I don't know him, I know suyuti. Nowhere do I see that the article is written/translated by Dr Muhsin Khan.

wa'alaykoem assalaamu

[Um Abdullah M.]

whose talking about Dr Muhsin khan
I brought what Imam Ibn Hajar rahimahu Allah mentioned in his sharh
and I brought a quote by shaikh Kashmiri from his sharh of sahih al-Bukhari regarding this hadith.



if u read the whole post u will see that.

[justabro]

I think the issue is about Ibn Hajar's stance concerning these matters. We all agree that the Hadith of Malik al-Dar is weak. And I guess we all agree how the 'Abbas-tradition should be understood correctly, insha'Allah.

agreed, but sister asmaa brought up their claim that the "salafi" translation of muhsin khan for this hadith is a distortion, one of their constant refrains about salafis is their many distortions. if you repeat a lie enough times, it becomes true.

For example, in his glossary of terms: http://www.abc.se/~m9783/n/sg_e.html#74 Haddad states the following

Khawârij,sing. Khârijî: "Separatists," Those of Ahl al-Bid`a who, in any day and age, fight against the caliph and/or against the mainstream Ulema of the Muslims and their commonality by force of arms and/or recourse to anathema which includes falsely declaring others "disbelievers" (takfîr), "pagans" (tashrîk), "misguided" (tad.lîl), "innovators" (tabdî`), "pantheists" (ittih.âdî, h.ulûlî), "grave-worshippers" (qubûrî), "cultists" (t.uruqî), and so forth. Modern Khawârij include the Wahhâbiyya (as stated by Ibn `âbidîn, al-S.âwî, Abû Zahra, etc.) and their myriad modernist offshoots and hybrid grouplets and parties East and West - many purportedly Sunni - including certain professed S.ûfis, as well as the Râfid.a. Modern Khawârij, unlike the early ones, all permit lying, forgery, and book-tampering in the furtherance of their causes.

[Um Abdullah M.]

hadith of Malik ad-Dar is an evidance against their kind of tawassul, and it seems to me the al Hafidh Ibn Hajar rahimahu Allah believed it to be an evidance for asking the Imam to do istisqa' for people, and not evidance for asking the Prophet after his death to do du'aa to Allah for rain.
that shows the fiqh of Imam Ibn hajar rahimahu Allah.

[joefso]

asma i can't read arabic.... so I can't confirm... but did you read the article to? And where do you get these books from? And why does suyuti get's ignored? b.t.w

the article says:

Cited from al-Zubayr ibn Bakkar's narration in al-Ansab by Ibn Hajar in Fath al-Bari (2:497).

So the tawassul continues to be solely through the Prophet MHMD despite appearances to the contrary, for he is the ultimate recourse of human beings seeking nearness to Allah as he himself taught the blind man (“Say, ‘O Muhammad, I turn with you to Allah…’”) and as several Sahaba explicitly said, such as in the following reports:

...... http://www.livingislam.org/o/twua_e.html

[Um Abdullah M.]

asma i can't read arabic.... so I can't confirm... but did you read the article to? And where do you get these books from? And why does suyuti get's ignored? b.t.w

the article says:

why don't u use the same excuse for the translation u got for Imam as-suyuti's quote?
u can't read arabic so how did u verify that he said what is in the article u posted?

the arabic text for the quotes by ibn Hajar and kashmiri are posted for the members who know arabic to verify it, if they see anything wrong with the translation they speak up.

and the incident that was quoted by as-suyuti does not go against what we said, because al abbas could have done the duaa then after that Umar radiyallhu anhu raise his hand ..etc.

=====================================

also in the article u posted:

"O Allah, truly no tribulation descends except because of sins, nor is lifted except upon repentence. The people have turned to you by means of me BECAUSE OF MY POSITION IN RELATION TO YOUR PROPHET, and here are our hands [raised up] towards you - despite our sins - and our forelocks in repentence, so send down water for us and PRESERVE YOUR PROPHET IN THE PERSON OF HIS UNCLE." Whereupon the sky let down water as thick as ropes and the people came over to al-`Abbas passing their hands over him and saying to him: “Congratulations to you, irrigator of the two Sanctuaries!” Whereupon `Umar said, “He/This is, by Allah, the means to Allah and the place of nearness to Him!”

Cited from al-Zubayr ibn Bakkar's narration in al-Ansab by Ibn Hajar in Fath al-Bari (2:497).

I checked fath al-Bari that I have and I did not see the part in BOLD that is in the article.

here is what I found

وَقَدْ بَيَّنَ الزُّبَيْر بْن بَكَّار فِي الْأَنْسَاب صِفَة مَا دَعَا بِهِ الْعَبَّاس فِي هَذِهِ الْوَاقِعَة وَالْوَقْت الَّذِي وَقَعَ فِيهِ ذَلِكَ ، فَأَخْرَجَ بِإِسْنَادٍ لَهُ أَنَّ الْعَبَّاس لَمَّا اِسْتَسْقَى بِهِ عُمَر قَالَ " اللَّهُمَّ إِنَّهُ لَمْ يَنْزِل بَلَاء إِلَّا بِذَنْبٍ ، وَلَمْ يُكْشَف إِلَّا بِتَوْبَةٍ ، وَقَدْ تَوَجَّهَ الْقَوْم بِي إِلَيْك لِمَكَانِي مِنْ نَبِيّك ، وَهَذِهِ أَيْدِينَا إِلَيْك بِالذُّنُوبِ وَنَوَاصِينَا إِلَيْك بِالتَّوْبَةِ فَاسْقِنَا الْغَيْث . فَأَرْخَتْ السَّمَاء مِثْل الْجِبَال حَتَّى أَخْصَبَتْ الْأَرْض ، وَعَاشَ النَّاس "

[joefso]

I can't say It's true nor can I say it's false.

[abubakr]

Asalamu alaykum

I read somewhere that gf haddad cited the bold words from sharh usul itiqad of imam lalaikee.

[Um Abdullah M.]

Asalamu alaykum

I read somewhere that gf haddad cited the bold words from sharh usul itiqad of imam lalaikee.

I found some narrations about the incident of tawassul by al Abbas but none of them were what was quoted in that article.

[pseudonym]

Bismillah-ar-Rahman-ar-Raheem,

A0A,

A very interesting thread indeed.

Something to ponder for us all:

There is no might nor power save with Allah(swt), every muslim on earth believes this. However does Allah(swt) do his work through causes ?

When a person is ill, they go to the doctor and maybe get some pills, they then take the pills and eventually get better (Insha-Allah). Was it the doctor, the pills or aything else that would have cured a person,, or is it simply that Allah(swt) uses these means to interact with us.

The Prophets(a.s) are definately a means, and certainly not an independent power.

It is also interesting to note that people who wouldn't visit the grave of a great personailty are in reaity farther away from 'There is no might nor power save with Allah(swt)'.... after all if you truly believed in this you would be able to visit any great person and never fear worshipping them or something like that.

I would be interested in your thoughts.

Pseudonym

[abubakr]

Asalamu alaykum

Akhi pseudonym the reasoning you used is the very argument the grave worshippers use to ask dead saints and prophets. perhaps akhi abu zubair can elaborate further

[pseudonym]

Bismillah-ar-Rahman-ar-Raheem,

Aoa,

No-one should accuse others of things like grave worshipping, tawassul is a fact in Islam, and ayatul kursi clearly states that intercession is given by Allah(swt) to whosoever he chooses.

So, please re-read my initial e-mail again carefully and also be clear that you may be asked to prove your claim that people were grave worshipping one day.

Was salaamu alaikum

Pseudonym

[abubakr]

Asalamu alaykum

Akhi just go to pakistan, India and some arab countries and you will find out the reality of grave worshipping. For example people call upon dead saints for help such as "Ya shaykh Jilani give me success in my exams etc". Even though they believe that the saints help through the permission of Allah this is still shirk as this is no different to the ancient mushrikeen who believed exactly the same. They believed Allah was the sole creator and lord and he controlled everything. Yet their shirk occured in worship. the famous hadith in Tirmidhi states dua is worship! There are also many quranic proofs which identify dua as worship.

I recommend you read Sheikh Yasir Qadhi's book "Critical study of shirk" . This is an excellent book which explains the belief of the pagans of old and shows how the modern day pagans are no diferent in fact they are worse.

Also please refer to the following links:

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showpost.php?p=5724&postcount=2

http://talk.islamicnetwork.com/showpost.php?p=100626&postcount=79

[Abu Dharr Al Kashmiri]

Bismillah

Alhumdulillah wa salaatu wa salaamu ala rasulillah, wa ba'd

Asalaam'alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh'

I have seen - recently- the people make du'a to saints in their graves, they enter the masajids and instead of praying 2 rak'ah tahiyyitul masjid they go to make du'a to their 'awliyah', they certainly don't make the du'a of entering a graveyard from the sunnah...they rub their hands on their eyes after touching the grave of the dead person and rub their bodies and eat apples and oranges as tabarruk - blessed fruits - rub oils and soil on their bodies near the graves, again these people claim they do no worship these graves...These shrines are so brightly decorated, shiny green cloth and tinsel and birthday decorations and roses and what not. 4-5ft tall structure over the graves in marble etc etc......standing in front of the graves with sooo much khushoo whereas they do not pray salaah or stand with any humility and fear in front of the Lord of the Worlds....Wal Iyadhoubillah.

Indeed the shayateen gain mastery when ignorance is widespread....

If you have eczema the grave has the cure, if you have no child, the grave has a cure, if you are poor the grave has a cure, Na'uzubillah min zaalik..... Seems like theses people combine a lot of religions into one...Astagfirullah. What deen is this?!

...wa la hawla wa la Quwatta illa Billah

[abuadam]

salaam aleikoem,

I'm a new here but I have a question about tawassul.
is this Hadith a sahih one or not and does it aprove tawassul in this manner.

May ALLAH increase our knowledge.
سؤال الناس الإمام الاستسقاء إذا قحطوا الجمعة صحيح البخاري


</B>‏ ‏حدثنا ‏ ‏الحسن بن محمد ‏ ‏قال حدثنا ‏ ‏محمد بن عبد الله الأنصاري ‏ ‏قال حدثني ‏ ‏أبي عبد الله بن المثنى ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏ثمامة بن عبد الله بن أنس ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏أنس بن مالك ‏ ‏أن ‏ ‏عمر بن الخطاب ‏ ‏رضي الله عنه ‏
‏كان إذا قحطوا استسقى ‏ ‏بالعباس بن عبد المطلب ‏ ‏فقال اللهم ‏ ‏إنا كنا نتوسل إليك بنبينا فتسقينا وإنا نتوسل إليك بعم نبينا فاسقنا قال فيسقون ‏

فتح الباري بشرح صحيح البخاري


‏
‏قوله : ( حدثني الحسن بن محمد ) ‏
‏هو الزعفراني والأنصاري شيخه يروي عنه البخاري كثيرا وربما أدخل بينهما واسطة كهذا الموضع , ووهم من زعم أن البخاري أخرج هذا الحديث عن الأنصاري نفسه . ‏

‏قوله : ( أن عمر بن الخطاب كان إذا قحطوا ) ‏
‏بضم القاف وكسر المهملة أي أصابهم القحط , وقد بين الزبير بن بكار في الأنساب صفة ما دعا به العباس في هذه الواقعة والوقت الذي وقع فيه ذلك , فأخرج بإسناد له أن العباس لما استسقى به عمر قال " اللهم إنه لم ينزل بلاء إلا بذنب , ولم يكشف إلا بتوبة , وقد توجه القوم بي إليك لمكاني من نبيك , وهذه أيدينا إليك بالذنوب ونواصينا إليك بالتوبة فاسقنا الغيث . فأرخت السماء مثل الجبال حتى أخصبت الأرض , وعاش الناس " وأخرج أيضا من طريق داود عن عطاء عن زيد بن أسلم عن ابن عمر قال " استسقى عمر بن الخطاب عام الرمادة بالعباس بن عبد المطلب " فذكر الحديث وفيه " فخطب الناس عمر فقال : إن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم كان يرى للعباس ما يرى الولد للوالد , فاقتدوا أيها الناس برسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم في عمه العباس واتخذوه وسيلة إلى الله " وفيه " فما برحوا حتى سقاهم الله " وأخرجه البلاذري من طريق هشام بن سعد عن زيد بن أسلم فقال " عن أبيه " بدل ابن عمر , فيحتمل أن يكون لزيد فيه شيخان , وذكر ابن سعد وغيره أن عام الرمادة كان سنة ثمان عشرة , وكان ابتداؤه مصدر الحاج منها ودام تسعة أشهر , والرمادة بفتح الراء وتخفيف الميم , سمي العام بها لما حصل من شدة الجدب فاغبرت الأرض جدا من عدم المطر , وقد تقدم من رواية الإسماعيلي رفع حديث أنس المذكور في قصة عمر والعباس , وكذلك أخرجه ابن حبان في صحيحه من طريق محمد بن المثنى بالإسناد المذكور . ويستفاد من قصة العباس استحباب الاستشفاع بأهل الخير والصلاح وأهل بيت النبوة , وفيه فضل العباس وفضل عمر لتواضعه للعباس ومعرفته بحقه . ‏

Salaam aleikoem

[ibnislam]

Assalaamu alaykum,

Some of the people say that Ibn Khuzaymah went to the grave of Ali ar-Rida (the Shia Imaam), and they use that story to show the authenticity of making trips to graves for the purpose of tawassul.

Any comments to the veracity of this story and what it implies?

Ma'assalaam,
Ibn Islam

P.S. If you quote in Arabic, please make it in a font that that is large enough to read without squinting my eyes and scrunching my nose. Jazaakumullahu khayran.

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

also ibn kathir qoutes a story similar of someone going to grave of nabi salalahu alayhi wa salam

Imam nawawi rahimullah said tawasul through the dead is position of the shafiiyah

[Um Abdullah M.]

also ibn kathir qoutes a story similar of someone going to grave of nabi salalahu alayhi wa salam

Imam nawawi rahimullah said tawasul through the dead is position of the shafiiyah

what do u mean by "tawassul by the dead"?
do you mean making tawassul by the "dhat" and "jah" of the dead"
or tawassul by asking them to make duaa to Allah for them ?

you have to be more clear, also, reference please.

[Abuz Zubair]

Dear brother...

Refer to this thread:

All about Istighatha, Istishfa', and Tawassul, etc... (http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=3306)

If there is anything unanswered in the thread, then please free to ask.