Building an Idol of Allah

[jinnzaman]

Is building an idol of Allah, mentally or physically a form of shirk?
Or is it merely kufr?

When the Pagan Arabs worshipped Allah along with other idols, did they actually worship a physical idol that they made? Would worshipping an idol of Allah alone, without worshipping other idols, constitute shirk?

What if, when one is engaging in ibadah such as salah, one conceptualizes Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) in one's mind in the form of an idol? In other words, one is not directing one's salah towards a physical idol of Allah, but in their mind, they have directed their worship of Allah in the form of a mental image of an idol that they imagine to be Allah?

[Abuz Zubair]

there are certain things that are simply from the unseen, and even if a human brain tries to conceptualise them, it fails.

For instance, we have been told what we will get in paradise from Allah's bounties - by name - and therefore, we understand and know what we will be given by Allah in Paradise. Yet, those named things in this world do not share anything with the things in paradise, except names, as Ibn 'Abbas said. We still conceptualise these things, because we cannot help but that, knowing that what we conceptualise is nothing like what we'll get.

For instance, we have been told about the soul, and we know it exists, it moves, it is grabbed, etc. We also conceptualise the soul, knowing that it is not how we imagined.

So if this is the case with the creation, then how about the creator?

Similarly, we know that Allah may be seen in the dream, but what is actually seen is not what Allah looks like. This is why the image of Allah one gets in his dream, differs in accordance with the level of the faith in the heart of the dreamer.

In any case, a human mind naturally cannot worship something without having some level of conceptualisation taking place in his mind, whether he likes it or not. Even the most deviant of all negators of Allah's attributes would not deny that.

This is because primarily, the brain refuses to recognise the existence of anything without any attributes what so ever.

Lastly, the pre-Islamic Arabs did not use to worship Allah in an idol form. Nor were they condemned because they made an idol out of Allah. They were condemned because they worshipped other than Allah.

[jinnzaman]

So its not kufr or shirk to conceptualize Allah (subhana wa ta'ala), even if one is an act of worship?

[Abuz Zubair]

So its not kufr or shirk to conceptualize Allah (subhana wa ta'ala), even if one is an act of worship?

Again, depends what you mean by that.

If you mean by conceptualisation the ideas that we get in our minds which we cannot help, then of course that is not kufr.

But if you mean by that, intentionally forcing your mind to conceptualise Him the way you presume Him to be, then that is surely misguidance, and could even be Kufr.

[jinnzaman]

How can one conceptualize Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) in any other way besides visually? If one visualizes Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) in an act of ibadah, isn't this clearly kufr and possibly shirk?

After all, idol worshippers say that they do not worship the idol, but merely the form that is physically manifested in the idol? Whether they worship the physical idol or the form of a being, it is still shirk?

So is it not shirk to engage in an act of ibadah with a visualization of Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) since you've associated a false image with Allah (subhana wa ta'ala)?

[Abuz Zubair]

How can one conceptualize Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) in any other way besides visually? If one visualizes Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) in an act of ibadah, isn't this clearly kufr and possibly shirk? I have answered this in the posts above. It would be fruitful if we were to move on from there instead of going round in circles, with all due respect? :)

After all, idol worshippers say that they do not worship the idol, but merely the form that is physically manifested in the idol? Whether they worship the physical idol or the form of a being, it is still shirk?

It is Shirk simply because they worshipped other than Allah. Not because they made Allah into an idol. In fact, they never made Allah into an idol to my knowledge, and if you know to the contrary then please enlighten my with proofs.

I advise you to study Seera in depth and disover the Shirk of the pagans to be able to discern what Islam exactly fought against. The more we forget jahiliyya, the more we forget the purpose of Islam.

So is it not shirk to engage in an act of ibadah with a visualization of Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) since you've associated a false image with Allah (subhana wa ta'ala)? What deen is that from, dear bro? Shirk is not because one associates a false image to God. Shirk is to worship other than God. This much is the basics of Islam. Worshipping Allah alone is the crux of Islam. The pagans were fought because they worshipped other than God, and not because they carved out statues for God. They carved out statues for their own dead righteous men, whom they thought would intercede for them with God on their behalf. So none of the pagans believed the idols represent Allah's image.

[sunnih]

Again, depends what you mean by that.

If you mean by conceptualisation the ideas that we get in our minds which we cannot help, then of course that is not kufr.

But if you mean by that, intentionally forcing your mind to conceptualise Him the way you presume Him to be, then that is surely misguidance, and could even be Kufr.

I say: Enough proof for such is the hadith that explains the doubtful things that come to our minds and one is not at rest with such. The prophet not only did not call this shirk but the evident iman.

[abubakr]

Asalamu alaykum

akhi could you plz give the reference for that hadith.

jazakallah khair

[sunnih]

Asalamu alaykum

akhi could you plz give the reference for that hadith.

jazakallah khair

Akhi I will mention a few ahadith on this matter.

1) Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “Some of the companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said to him, ‘We find in ourselves thoughts that are too terrible to speak of.’ He said, ‘Are you really suffering from that?’ They said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘That is a clear sign of faith.’” (Narrated by Muslim).

2) It was narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with them both) that a man came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said, “I think thoughts to myself, which I would rather be burnt to a cinder than speak of them.” The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Praise be to Allaah, Who has reduced all his [the Shaytaan’s] plots to mere whispers.” (Narrated by Abu Dawood).

3) It was narrated in al-Saheehayn, also from Abu Hurayrah, that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “The Shaytaan comes to one of you and says, ‘Who created such and such? Who created such and such?’ until he says, ‘Who created your Lord?!’ If that happens to any of you, let him seek refuge with Allaah and put a stop to these thoughts.”

4) The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Allaah will forgive my ummah for any insinuating whispers that may cross their minds, so long as they do not act upon it or speak of it.” (Agreed upon).

I hope it helps ahki. Wa salam alaikum akhi.

[WM]

Jinnzaman, correct me if I'm wrong, but the way to deal with such thoughts about Allah is to ignore them. If the rulers had done their job, they would have suppressed all this Greek stuff. Censorship and execution do a world of good... ;)

[gag order]

After all, idol worshippers say that they do not worship the idol, but merely the form that is physically manifested in the idol?

this is what apologetic idolaters say when cornered, even the quraysh claimed this but despite the fact allah and the rasool still declared it shirk.

to imagine allah as an idol is a path that previous generations had tread that degenerated into idolatry.

[Umm Ahmed]

This reminds me of an incident in a buddhists hair salon , I had to take my son to have his hair cut , not realising that the little statue in the corner with sweets and fruit around it was the persons God , till my son reached out to take a sweet, she looked mad with the scissors in her hand saying thats my Gods food , all I said was let it eat it then and left.
May Allaah guide them ameen.

[joefso]

This reminds me of an incident in a buddhists hair salon , I had to take my son to have his hair cut , not realising that the little statue in the corner with sweets and fruit around it was the persons God , till my son reached out to take a sweet, she looked mad with the scissors in her hand saying thats my Gods food , all I said was let it eat it then and left.
May Allaah guide them ameen.

amien

lol, this brings back old memories. I know people who did/do this in my country of organ. They left food with the idols, and the next day when they came the food was almost(sometimes completely gone).

So, one day a person investigated and slept there, and in the evening he saw mouse, eating that food, he told it to everybody, but none would believe.

[gag order]

its important to remove the wrappers, idols dont like wrappers cant stress that enough!