Abuz Zubayr - joining police force..

[al-hanafi]

salam alaykum akhi

related to the voting issue in some ways ... i was wondering if you or your shuyukh consider joining the police force in muslim or non muslim countries to equal major shirk

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

really and truly. is this 'ilm un-nafian? if we so seek to know the ahkam regarding this then seek it from those who you trust in deen. why post a thread? sorry brother if i seem a bit forthright

wa ALLAHU Musta'an

[waziri]

Salam


Well he probably trusts Brother Abu Zubair in matters of deen hence the question being addressed to the brother.

wasalam

[gag order]

if you join the police force you will be asked/ordered to assist where your familiarity with muslims will be of operational value.

[waziri]

So in other words the police will get you to do their dirty work for them when it comes to dealing with muslims.Ie "you speak to these people Abdul they might trust you"

[gag order]

and if no muslims are available its a case of 'you speak to these people sanjay, you look like them'

there are many 'career paths' open to muslims in the force, just like in the army. consider jabron hasmi who was killed in afghanistan its no coincidence that he was in 'intelligence corp'. troops are normally transferred to this corp on account of skills or knowledge likely to benefit the gathering, analysing and advising on tackling the 'enemy'

he may have been involved in torturing mujahideen/civilians in order to extract information, for the war on terorr the army has expanded the role of linguists (opmi/L) to include what they call 'human intelligence' if they can handle it the role is subject to aptitude for such work

[al-hanafi]

really and truly. is this 'ilm un-nafian? if we so seek to know the ahkam regarding this then seek it from those who you trust in deen. why post a thread? sorry brother if i seem a bit forthright

wa ALLAHU Musta'an

this is an important contemporary issue especially in the current climate in the West with the drive to recruit more muslims in to the police force - this is far more important in practical terms than endless (useless) kalam debates.

the question is, is it major shirk to join the police force or are there conditions attached as in the case with voting such that it need not necessarily be shirk?

[Abdullah al-Shishani]

Shaykh ul Islam spoke about this but I can not find his fatwas in english concerning this. It would be helpful if someone could cite them.

[Umm]

Next people will be asking if a Muslim can still make sujood to Iblees and remain in the fold of Islaam.

[abu dujanah]

rightly said sister.
any excuse for shirk nowadays, wether it be ebnefit or harm etc........just look at voting, one of the biggest shirk of 2day giving the sole right of Allah to man,to creation. but these things are not known by necessity.
isnt joining police in non muslim lands kufr akbar, but they have excuse of ignorance.

[Um Abdullah M.]

Muslims don't speak out of ignorance

if u have knowledge on the issue then speak, if u don't> keep silent.

['Abd al-Kareem]

Next people will be asking if a Muslim can still make sujood to Iblees and remain in the fold of Islaam.
Assalamu 'alaikum

loool

[Abuz Zubair]

JK sister Asma for the reminder...

1) The question is genuine and of serious nature

2) Not everything in Islam revolves around Iman and Kufr, just as not every issue of hukm bi ghayri ma anzalAllah revolves around Tawheed and Shirk.

3) If you think you are a faqih to be able to answer such questions, then go ahead and ruin your hereafter. If you have some humbleness, then it is always best to keep quite about issues you have no knowledge of.

4) Some of the scholars allowed one to join the Police, while others did not, because it may involve enforcing laws that are contrary to Islam and in a police force, you have to put your duty above your religion and conviction.

5) I do not know of a scholar who regarded it to be an act of apostasy...

6) Not joining the police does not mean we cannot co-operate with them and work together against drugs and other such crimes to make our society a better place.

Allahu Alam

[al-hanafi]

jazakallah khair akhi

would the same apply to joining the army?

that is particularly relevant in view of some muslims calling for the beheading of muslims who have done so.

[gag order]

you have to put your duty above your religion and conviction.

such as refusing to pray jumuah salat whilst standing outside the masjid distributing anti terror leaflets with a kafir colleague.



there are many 'career paths' open to muslims in the force, just like in the army. consider jabron hasmi who was killed in afghanistan its no coincidence that he was in 'intelligence corp'. troops are normally transferred to this corp on account of skills or knowledge likely to benefit the gathering, analysing and advising on tackling the 'enemy'

he may have been involved in torturing mujahideen/civilians in order to extract information, for the war on terorr the army has expanded the role of linguists (opmi/L) to include what they call 'human intelligence' if they can handle it the role is subject to aptitude for such work.

had he been caught by the enemy on the battlefield (which is in afghanistan and not in the UK) then beheading him is a possibility, they would kill him as an apostate.

[al-hanafi]

but it is not necessary that the Muslim take part in such activities is it? He can take consientious objector status can he not? would he still be kafir for just joining the army? and what about non-combatant roles? or is his conscription into the army enough to declare him a murtad?

[gag order]

if you join the army for money thinking that you can get away with conscientous objector status when called to fight think again!

it is rarely issued and is a very long process in the meantime you could be serving in iraq and afghanistan while your request is bieng handled.

most american objectors for example simply go AWOL to canada this is becos they know they will be refused and will suffer the consequences.

secondly non-combatant roles such as various types of specialists are often killed or die fighting against the 'enemy' just consider the role of jabron hashmi.

any non-combatant role to keep the frontline trooper fighting fit, it is as if he has fought. such support includes the typical roles such as medic, transport, mechanic, and even chef!


http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=2935 more about the pros and cons of bieng a PIG but mostly cons!

[Abuz Zubair]

Imam al-Shafi'i discussed this in al-Umm. He concluded that he would rather that the Muslims do not join any military campaign involving Kafirs and Kafirs, unless necessity dictates otherwise. Primarily because when a Muslim engages in a military struggle, he must abide by the Sharia, and there is no chance of that if he were to be under a non-Muslim military administration. For instance, if the enemy wants to pay the jizya, it would be incumbent upon the Muslims to stop fighting, but his non-Muslim commanders would not be happy with that.

With respect to fighting along side the Kuffar against Muslims then that is apostasy by agreement.

[Umm Ahmed]

Going back to women in the police force, there is a need for them within the muslim comunity , domestic violence , rape or any other situation it would be better to have a muslimah to talk to rather than some kaffir man or woman.

[gag order]

the police view would be that any kafir wpc would be sufficient, defeating the purpose of an otherwise excellent suggestion

[al-hanafi]

With respect to fighting along side the Kuffar against Muslims then that is apostasy by agreement.

salam alykum

thankyou for your replies akhi

what is your view of the saudi army that fought against the iraqis in gulf war I?

[Intoodeep]

Imam al-Shafi'i discussed this in al-Umm. He concluded that he would rather that the Muslims do not join any military campaign involving Kafirs and Kafirs, unless necessity dictates otherwise. Primarily because when a Muslim engages in a military struggle, he must abide by the Sharia, and there is no chance of that if he were to be under a non-Muslim military administration. For instance, if the enemy wants to pay the jizya, it would be incumbent upon the Muslims to stop fighting, but his non-Muslim commanders would not be happy with that.

Is this the same place where he gives example of Nagashi? If so can you give me a reference for this?

[Brother_Mujahid]

salam alykum

thankyou for your replies akhi

what is your view of the saudi army that fought against the iraqis in gulf war I?

The Saudi army didn't actually fight, the Americans did almost all of the fighting. Furthermore, the war was theoritically, fought against the Ba'ath party, which are viewed as apostates and renegades from the religion. I'm not justifiying the Gulf War or the Saudi role in it, but it isn't as you portray it.

[Abdullah al-Shishani]

The Saudi army didn't actually fight, the Americans did almost all of the fighting. Furthermore, the war was theoritically, fought against the Ba'ath party, which are viewed as apostates and renegades from the religion. I'm not justifiying the Gulf War or the Saudi role in it, but it isn't as you portray it.

yes the ulama made takfir of Saddam didnt they? Whats funny or sad really, is that Saudis took upon themselves all the costs for that war. US gave them a bill of over 100 billion dollars and they've payed it or are still paying. SubhanAllah...

[abu dujanah]

to join the police force or army is kufr and to help them to kill and arrest muslims is kufr akbar.

lets not foget that our first obligation is to reject taghut, what is taghut ?
"anything worshipped,obeyed or followed besides Allah" and what did Ibn Abbas say taghut is, he said "taghut are the ones who makes the laws"
so we must reject and keep distant from taghut let alone now to go and help them uphold their law wether it agrees with shariah or not, are they amir mu'mineen? no! so why we gonna help them uphold law and order.

ibn taimyah (rha) said, be aware that there is no way for a kafir to create mischief in this world, except with the assistance of the muslims to help him, in order to be his bodyguard, or assitant to uphold those law
and no ruler could be there without supporters- army, security, whatever u wish to call them

hud:113." And incline not toward those who do wrong, lest the Fire should touch you, and you have no protectors other than Allâh, nor you would then be helped"

even to incline towards thema little bit.

and most of the ulema of the salaf used to say that the assistance of the taghut, and even those who prepare the ink for the pen, or those who prepare for the rulers a pen, even those who wash their clothes, from his assistants, and their wives

they are those whom the ayah mentioned and co-operation in other than the good deed is that of the bad one, which islam condemns and islam praises those who arbitrate to the shariah all the time

Allah described firauwn and his army as one body. and they were all punished.
so what about tony blair,george bush or the apostate rulers and those who join them wether their external army or their internal army(police).

mm (saw) said clearly,
i am free frm any muslim who is resident among the mushrikeen, let alone the one who supports them
so to sit among hte kuffar is forbidden, let alone fight with them and work for them

remember my dear muslims that our urpose in life is to worship Allah with the tawheed and to establish his deen.
so if we join the army of taghut then what manhaj are we upon? not that of the salaf.
remember the words of Allah when he says"those who believe fight for the sake of Allah and those who disbelieve fight for the sake of taghut"
and keep this inmind and inshallah we all meet Allah with rejecting the taghut and singling out Allah alone with the tawheed.Ameen!

[Intoodeep]

The Saudi army didn't actually fight, the Americans did almost all of the fighting. Furthermore, the war was theoritically, fought against the Ba'ath party, which are viewed as apostates and renegades from the religion. I'm not justifiying the Gulf War or the Saudi role in it, but it isn't as you portray it.

They did fight. Its well-known that they went in with the US troops however i remember reading US troops in news reports afterwards laughing at how unbrave the Saudis were and that they would sometimes mop up some areas but make it look like some of their arab allies did something (when they didnt).
Bro, So what if the Baathist regime is kufr, are you extrapolating that to include the entire Iraqi army etc! if that isnt a takfiri mentality what is?
I wish some Iraqis were here to defend themselves from this craziness. A million Iraqi children died from sanctions and maybe a million more iraqis have died from the 2 gulf wars.

[abu khattab]

question: who said to keep peace in land, by helping in a "common" value shared by both muslims and non-muslims is kufr?

[abu khattab]

mm (saw) said clearly,
i am free frm any muslim who is resident among the mushrikeen"

This hadith was before migration to madinah...

[Abuz Zubair]

to join the police force or army is kufr and to help them to kill and arrest muslims is kufr akbar.

Don't you ever wonder if al-Shafi'i according to your reckless view of the deen is guilty of kufr? Or at least jahil of what is or is not kufr?

Sometimes I wonder, how dare these youngster approach Sharia as if they are born with all the innate knowledge of it.

I have advised you, dear bro Abu Durrah, you seem to be very young, yet very fixed in your views you have been spoon fed by those who conned you. You make these huge claims about Sharia, etc, and yet you haven't read a single fiqh book, the smallest of which is probably 50 pages? Aren't ought to feel embarrassed airing our unfounded opinions about Allah's religion without knowledge? Don't you realise that you are often guilty of something worse than Shirk? namely, speaking about Allah without knowledge?

Have a read of this:
A Warning to the Spurious Mufti and the Careless Mustafti (http://www.islamicawakening.com/viewarticle.php?articleID=1168&)

Of course, with an open mind.

[gag order]

i only mentioned the "army" becos it was peripheral to the view i was expressing.

[al-hanafi]

The Saudi army didn't actually fight, the Americans did almost all of the fighting. Furthermore, the war was theoritically, fought against the Ba'ath party, which are viewed as apostates and renegades from the religion. I'm not justifiying the Gulf War or the Saudi role in it, but it isn't as you portray it.


the Saudis did definitely fight. also, the Iraqi govt was controlled by Ba'athists - it does not follow necessarily that every member of the Iraqi army is a Ba'athist and a kafir by default does it? so actually, i think it isn't as you portray it brother.

akhi abuz-zubayr if you could provide the arabi of imam shafi'is statement it would be helpful

[Umm Ahmed]

All the Gulf forces participated in expelling Iraq from Kuwait, but none crossed the border into Iraq.

[Abuz Zubair]

And what exactly is wrong with fighting against the invading Iraqi Army in the Gulf War? Bin Ladin offered his help to fight along side the Saudis against Saddam, didn't he?

[Brother_Mujahid]

They did fight. Its well-known that they went in with the US troops however i remember reading US troops in news reports afterwards laughing at how unbrave the Saudis were and that they would sometimes mop up some areas but make it look like some of their arab allies did something (when they didnt).
Bro, So what if the Baathist regime is kufr, are you extrapolating that to include the entire Iraqi army etc! if that isnt a takfiri mentality what is?
I wish some Iraqis were here to defend themselves from this craziness. A million Iraqi children died from sanctions and maybe a million more iraqis have died from the 2 gulf wars.

Nice how you create strawmen arguements and accuse me of making takfeer of the entire Iraqi army, when I never said anything of the sort. How cynical some people have become. I spoke of the Ba'ath party as being apostates and renegades, am I wrong in that?

As for the fighting of the Saudis during the time, well you confirmed what I said. They were a show force and nothing more.

You are very disingenious in trying to claim that I make takfeer of the entire Iraqi army, and by implying that I approve of either Gulf War and the sanctions of the 1990's. Are you really that morally and intellectally bankrupt?

[abudurrah]

Don't you ever wonder if al-Shafi'i according to your reckless view of the deen is guilty of kufr? Or at least jahil of what is or is not kufr?

Sometimes I wonder, how dare these youngster approach Sharia as if they are born with all the innate knowledge of it.

I have advised you, dear bro Abu Durrah, you seem to be very young, yet very fixed in your views you have been spoon fed by those who conned you. You make these huge claims about Sharia, etc, and yet you haven't read a single fiqh book, the smallest of which is probably 50 pages? Aren't ought to feel embarrassed airing our unfounded opinions about Allah's religion without knowledge? Don't you realise that you are often guilty of something worse than Shirk? namely, speaking about Allah without knowledge?

Have a read of this:

A Warning to the Spurious Mufti and the Careless Mustafti (http://www.islamicawakening.com/viewarticle.php?articleID=1168&)

Of course, with an open mind.



i havent even posted on this thread till now and youve already started accusing me of this and that

i hope this is a mix up

[Abuz Zubair]

I am so sorry, dear brother...

I misread abu dujana to be abu durrah... my sincere apologies :eek:

[Umm]

I just wanted to clarify my earlier statement regarding prostrating to Iblees that I am not making a fatwa and saying that it is major kufr to join the police, but rather it is major stupidity. The same police force that arrests your Muslim brothers, humiliates them and terrorises their families, why would anyone want to join them?

The only Muslims who join the police are those with a typical south asian inferiority complex of needing to be more British than the British themselves.

Of course, if working as part of the police force means that one hands over a Muslim brother than this is not a small matter, but rather one of major kufr.

The police are inherently racist. Even non-Muslim Black policemen get hassled and treated as dirt by their collegues.

[abu dujanah]

assalamu alaykum warahmatullahi wabarrakatu dear brother abu zubair.

May Allah guide both you and me and the rest of the muslims on the straight path. Ameen!

may Allah have mercy upon you and me my dear brother.

as a muslim, before we start to throw big accusations around we need tp verify things inshallah.

Allah says in the quran if you do not know ask those who know(ulemas),
so its not a matter where im just speaking from my opinion.
I have asked about this issue with scholars who i consider to be from aswj and not con artists.
people who have more ilm than me and you put together .may Allah increase our ilm which is beneficial, Ameen!

ppl who Allah have given them that ilm and understanding of that ilm, so therefore before you just quote anything from imaam shafi'i (rahimullah) and your understanding, ask the scholars its understanding, and they will give you the understanding of the salaf and they will apply it to reality. and that is the beauty of the deen.

becareful who you accuse dear brother in Islam, be careful of claiming i havnt read any single fiqh book and becareful when you do not know me and if i am young or old person,
for the one who fears Allah much will hold his tongue before speaking bad about his fellow muslim brother.
And may Allah make us of those who fear him much.Ameen!

many people talk this and that and yet they dont know their foundations of the deen manely the tawheed which is why we was created for, and this is not accusing you of anything but it is a general statement.
as one alim (rahimullah) would say to study the tawheed is more important than studying fiqh and we must study it with a greater importance.

anyway i see that people in this forum needs to fear Allah much including myself and if we are here typing up any message then we need to always remember Allah and fear Him much and hold our tongues against one another, for verily it might be a small thing we say or do which enters us into the hellfire (may Allah protect us,Ameen!).
jzkallah for the advise and the link for the article on giving fatwas brother abu zubair,
may Allah reward you and make you of those that will be of the inhabitants of Paradise. Ameen!

assalamu alaykum warahmatyullahi wabarrakatu

[Husain]

becareful who you accuse dear brother in Islam, be careful of claiming i havnt read any single fiqh book
Well, have you finished a fiqh book cover to cover? If so, which one and wíth whom?

- Husain.

[Abuz Zubair]

Which scholar has told you that to merely join the police force is Kufr?

[Brother_Mujahid]

Which scholar has told you that to merely join the police force is Kufr?

'Omar Bakri is the only person I know of who makes that claim, however his scholarly credentials are questionable at best.

[gag order]

is there some concievable way that it may somehow lead to kufr?