Imam Ahmad made takfir of al Ma'moun?

[Break The Cross]

salam, I found this on the net and the heading said Imam Ahmad made takfir of al Ma'moun but i dont know what it says lol:

It was written in the "As-Sunnah" book by al-Khallaal (5/95):


Quote:
أخبرني أحمد بن محمد بن مطر قال حدثنا أبو طالب قال ، قلت لأبي عبد الله : إنهم مرّوا بطرسوس بقبر رجل ، فقال أهل طرسوس : الكافر لا رحمه الله ، فقال أبو عبد الله : نعم فلا رحمه الله ، هذا الذي أسس هذا وجاء بهذا .


It was mentioned in the "Tareekh Baghdad" (The History of Baghdad) (3/285):


Quote:
سأل أحدهم أحمد بن حنبل عمّن يقول إنّ القرآن مخلوق ، فقال : كافر . قال : فابن دؤاد ؟ قال كافر بالله العظيم



Quote:
قال الشيخ مجد الدين ابن تيمية رحمه الله : " الصحيح أن كل بدعة كفرنا فيها الداعية فإنا نفسق المقلد فيها ، كمن يقول بخلق القرآن وأن علم الله مخلوق ، أو أن أسماء الله مخلوقة ، أو أنه لا يرى في الآخرة ، أو يسب الصحابة تديناً ، أو يقول أن الإيمان مجرد الاعتقاد وما أشبه ذلك ، فمن كان في شيء من هذه البدع يدعو إليه ويناظر عليه فهو محكوم بكفره ، نص أحمد على ذلك في مواضع)

[islamic@rebel]

wassalam.this is my understanding, and i have misunderstood myself before.


I said to Imam Ahmad: They went to Tarsus to a grave of a man and the people of tarsus said: The kaafir has no mercy of Allah upon him. Imam Ahmad said: Yes, there is no rahmat of Allah upon him. This is the man that founded this and came with this.

Imam Ahmad was asked by one of them about one who says that the Qur’an is created. He answered: Kaafir. They ask: What about Ibn Du’ad? Imam Ahmad said: Kaafir in Allah.


Ibnu Taymiyah (the grandfather) said: The correct opinion is we make takfir of the callers to bid’ah and merely considers the people who blindly follows them faasiqs. Like those who say about the createdness of the qur’an and that the knowledge of Allah is created. Or those who say Allah’s names are created, or those who say that Allah will not be seen in the Akhirah, or those who curse the Sahabah religiously or those who say that iman is merely belief and whatever like that. Whomsoever has any part in this bid’ah and calls towards it and debates for it then he is ruled as being a kaafir. Ahmad said this in many places.

is al-ma'mun the guy in the grave in tarsus and he is the one that founded this movement/idea(?)

what is clear is he made takfir of ibnu du'ad

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

As-sallamu 'alaikum

Interesting you brought this up, because it has been going through my thoughts because a brother a couple of years ago who had the book mentioned this to me. So jazakALLAHU Khairan for that.

BTW what is the reference for ibn taymiyyah(grandfather)(rh)'s quote? barakALLAHU feek!

Takfeer of ibn da'ud? interesting especially when abu zahra the major 'ash'ari after al-kawthari said he was right and imaam ahmad(rh) was wrong!

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=2212

may ALLAH Ta'ala save us from the mu'tazilah and their allies in their belief in His-Subhanahu's book! Ameen!

[Abu_Abdallah]

salam, I found this on the net and the heading said Imam Ahmad made takfir of al Ma'moun but i dont know what it says lol:

It was written in the "As-Sunnah" book by al-Khallaal (5/95):


Quote:
أخبرني أحمد بن محمد بن مطر قال حدثنا أبو طالب قال ، قلت لأبي عبد الله : إنهم مرّوا بطرسوس بقبر رجل ، فقال أهل طرسوس : الكافر لا رحمه الله ، فقال أبو عبد الله : نعم فلا رحمه الله ، هذا الذي أسس هذا وجاء بهذا .


It was mentioned in the "Tareekh Baghdad" (The History of Baghdad) (3/285):


Quote:
سأل أحدهم أحمد بن حنبل عمّن يقول إنّ القرآن مخلوق ، فقال : كافر . قال : فابن دؤاد ؟ قال كافر بالله العظيم



Quote:
قال الشيخ مجد الدين ابن تيمية رحمه الله : " الصحيح أن كل بدعة كفرنا فيها الداعية فإنا نفسق المقلد فيها ، كمن يقول بخلق القرآن وأن علم الله مخلوق ، أو أن أسماء الله مخلوقة ، أو أنه لا يرى في الآخرة ، أو يسب الصحابة تديناً ، أو يقول أن الإيمان مجرد الاعتقاد وما أشبه ذلك ، فمن كان في شيء من هذه البدع يدعو إليه ويناظر عليه فهو محكوم بكفره ، نص أحمد على ذلك في مواضع)

Imam Ahmad b. Hanbal made general Takfir of those who say the Qur'an is created, just like he make general Takfir of those who deny the vision, te Attributes etc.

He made also specific Takfir of several individuals like the above mentioned Ibn Abi Du'ad, Jahm b. Safwan, Bishr b. Ghiyat al-Marisi and several other figures.

As far as I known, he did not make Takfir of any Caliph: not al-Ma'mun - the one referred too - nor any other. Indeed, he never saw al-Ma'mun during the Mihna so the above referred statement is not a real Takfir. Yes, he would consider him a Kafir for else he would not say 'No mercy upon him', for every Muslims deserves the Rahma of Allah and it is forbidden to ask for Rahma to an unbeliever by agreement of the scholars. So if he says 'No Rahma upon him' he would consider the dead man a Kafir or died as a Kafir.

But the above narration from Imam Ahmad is probably strange (gharîb), as the first transmitter, who is Thiqa, Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Matar narrates according to al-Khallal himself part of Masâ'il which contain Gharâ'ib.

And Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah explains all this about Imam Ahmad and his comrades (like Ishaq b. Rahawayh, Zuhayr b. Harb, al-Bukhari etc). He criticizes some of his fellow Hanbalites about making fast Takfir about individuals when they share Kufr and a general declaration of Takfir (like many of the Mu'tazilah who all say: the Qur'an is created, about which the Imams all said: Whosoever says that is an Kafir); Takfir Mutlaq is not a free gateway to declare an individual a Kafir (i.e. Takfir mu'in).

Shaykh al-Islam then explains that Imam Ahmad when questioned during the Mihna and thereafter pardoned all of the individuals who had a hand in it, in particular the Caliphs. He prayed for the Caliphs, he aksed forgiveness for them, he even opposed rebellion according to a report when requested. This he did all after being jailed, beaten, questioned etc. Indeed, they even called to clear cut Kufr, imprisoning people for it and other public things which are worse than beating an Imam of the Muslims. But he still did not call the individuals Kuffar, as some think.

Yes, he did call a few - as mentioned above and who were involved in the Mihna - such as Ibn Abi Du'ad. Indeed, if you read the Mihna-journals wherein the conversations are mentioned you'll see that he said about an individual 'You became a Kafir bi'llah!' - I believe Ibn Abi Du'ad himself; but he only said that after he brought him the proofs, making his case. The same counts for every other individual; if the proofs have been brought, clear and decisive, and still yet he obstinently refuses then he may be declared an Kafir as individual. This is how things works.

Shaykh al-Islam said also somewhere:

"And it has been reported from Ahmad what indicates that he made Takfir a people individually. But as for being mentioned from him concerning the issue two narrations, that's questionable. Or one can carry the case in detail and one says: Whoever he made Takfir over individually, then the evidence has been brought that there's found in him the conditions for the Takfir, and the obstructions that prevent from not making Takfir of him individually have disappeared. For the disappearence of that is his right. This is so, with expressing his saying of Takfir in a general way"

And I dont think that al-Ma'mun, who called to Kufr worse than many Umara' after him in history, deserved to be called a Kafir, yet. For if that was the case, I think the Imams would have not feared him or his successors, just like they didn't feared the Inquisitors and other individuals whom some of them were called Kuffar individually as is well-known.

wa-Allahu A'lam.

[Abuz Zubair]

He was making dua for al-mu'tasim, whilst he was the one who lashed him the worst