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Salahudin
22nd March 2007, 04:07 PM
The Miracle of the Qur'an

The Qur'an is the expression revealed to our master Muhammad (saw) with what indicates of its meanings. So the Qur'an is the wording (lafz) and meaning (ma'na) together. The meaning on its own is not called Qur'an. And the wording cannot possibly have any meaning because the basis of composing expressions is to indicate a certain/specific meaning. That is why the Qur'an has been described by a description of its wording. Thus, Allah (swt) said about it that it is in Arabic when He said:

'Verily, We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an'.[12:2]
And He (swt) said:
'A Book whereof the Verses are explained in detail;- A Qur'an in Arabic'.[41:3]

And He (swt) said:
'An Arabic Qur'an, without any crookedness'.[39:28] 'We have revealed unto you (O Muhammad[saw]) a Qur'an in Arabic.'[42:7] We verily, have made it a Qur'an in Arabic.'[43:3]

Arabic is a description of the Qur'an's wording/expression and not a description of its meanings, because its meanings are human meanings and not Arabic meanings. They are for humankind and not for the Arabs only. As for His saying:

'And thus have We sent it down (the Qur'an) down to be an Arabic judgment (hukman 'arabiyyan)'.[13:37] It means that the wisdom has been translated in the tongue of the Arabs and not that it is an arabic wisdom. So the word 'Arabic' is a description of its expression and not anything else. It wording is not to be described except only as Arabic. It has no other designation other than arabic, whether literally or metaphorically. That is why it is not correct to say that the writing of some of its meanings in another language is Qur'an. The Arabic language of the Qur'an is definite/indisputable; it is arabic in wording only. The Qur'an is the miracle of the Prophet Muhammad (saw). Even though there are other miracles of the Prophet (saw) which took place at his hands different to that of the Qur'an, as mentioned in the Qur'an itself and the sahih works on the Sunnah, though he (saw) did not challenge the people with them. On the contrary, the challenge was only with the Qur'an. That is why we say that the Qur'an was the miracle of the Prophet Muhammad (saw) with which his Messengership has been proven ever since the Qur'an was revealed, until the Day of Judgment. The Qur'an made the Arabs incapable of bringing something like it, and it challenged them to bring something like it. He (swt) said in His challenge to them:

'And if you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down to Our slave, then produce a sura of the like thereof and call your witnesses besides Allah, if you are truthful.'[2:23]
And He (swt) said:

'Say:"Bring then a sura like unto it, and call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah, if you are truthful'.[10:38]'Or they say,"He (the Prophet) forged it (Qur'an). Say: "Bring you then ten forged suras like unto it, and call whomsoever you can, other than Allah (to your help), if you speak the truth'.[11:13]
His challenge to them reached the point where He (swt) told them that you will not be able to bring something like it. He (swt) said:

'Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they helped one another'.[17:88]

So those addressed by the Qur'an were unable to being something like the Qur'an.. This inability to meet the challenge has been proven via recurrent reports (mutawatir). History has no knowledge of, and nor has anybody narrated a report, that they (the Quraysh) did bring somethung like it.

This challenge is not specific to those who were addressed; rather it is an open challenge until the day of Judgment. Because the consideration is for the generality of the wording (lafz) and not the specificity of the cause (sabab). So the Qur'an challenges the whole of mankind since it was revealed and until the Day of Judgment to bring something like it. That is why the Qur'an is not a miracle for the Arabs who lived in the days of the Messenger (saw) only, and nor is it for only the Arabs in all time and place, rather it is a miracle for the whole of mankind. In this regard there is no difference between one tribe and another because he address is to the whole of mankind. He (swt) said:

'We have not sent you (O Muhammad [saw]), except to all of mankind'.[34:28]
And because the verses of the challenge are general ('amma), they say:

'And call upon whomsoever you can, besides Allah'.[10:38]
It includes the whole of mankind, because the Qur'an informs us of the inability of mankind and jinn. He (swt) said:

'Say: "If the mankind and the jinns were together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof'.[17:88]

The Arab's inibility to bring like that of this Qur'an, and all the people's inability to bring something like it is a matter intrinsic/inherent in the Qur'an itself. The Arabs, when they used to listen to the Qur'an, they approached it and they were taken by the magic of its eloquence until al-Walid b. al-Mughira, who had heard the Prophet (saw) reciting the Qur'an, said to the people: By Allah! There is not a man amongst you who is more well-versed in poetry than me, or has more knowledge of its poetic meter (rajazihi) or qasida [ancient Arabic poem with rigid tripartite structure] than me!. I swear! In the saying that he says there is a sweetness and beauty (halaawa) and in it there is grace and elegance (talaawa). At its highest it is fresh green and leafy and at its lowest it is copious and abundant (with rain). Verily it is the highest and nothing is higher than it'. Even though this al-Walid did not believe and persisted with his kufr. So the aspects of the miracle are from the nature of the Qur'an itself because those who have heard it and those who will hear it until the Day of Judgment are baffled and bewildered by the power of its effect and force of its eloquence by merely just listening to it, even if it is just one sentence:


'And whose is the kingdom this day?'.[40:16]

'On the Day of Resurrection the whole of the earth will be grasped by His Hand'.[39:67]

'If you fear treachery from any people throw back (their covenant) to them (so as to be) on equal terms'.[8:58]

'O mankind! Fear your Lord and be dutiful to Him! Verily, the earthquake of the Hour (of Judgement) is a terrible thing. The Day you shall see it, every nursing mother will forget her nursling, and every pregnant one will drop her load, and you shall see mankind as in a drunken state, yet they will not be drunken, but severe will be the Torment of Allah'.[22:1] And thus an ayah or ayaat of the Qur'an would be recited. Its words, style and purpose completely engrosses the feelings a human being and seizes them.

The miracle of the Qur'an is most evident in in its fluency/purity, eloquence and its elevation to an astonishing level. This manifetst itself in the miracilous style of the Qur'an. Its style has clarity (wuduh), force (quwwah) and beauty (jamal) which makes the human being incapable of achieving it. Style (uslub): is the arrangement of meanings in coordinated words. Or the manner of expression to envision meanings with lingusitic expressions. And the clarity of style comes from the prominence of the meanings intended to be expressed in the phrase with which they are expressed:

'And those who disbelieve say:"Listen not to this Qur'an, and make noise in the midst of its (recitation) that you may overcome'.[41:26]
The force (quwwah) of the style is represented by the choice of words which give the meaning that is consonant with the meaning. Thus, the delicate meaning is expressed with the delicate word, and the eloquent/lucid meaning is expressed with the eloquent/lucid word and the odd/strange meaning is expressed with the odd/strange word and so on and so forth...

'And they will be given to drink there a cup (of wine) mixed with Zanjabil (ginger, etc), and a spring there, called Salsabil'.[76:17-18]

'Truly, Hell is a place of ambush, a dwelling place for the Taghun (Those who transgress the limits set by Allah). They will abide therein for ages'.[78:21-23]

'That indeed is a division most unfair'.[53:22]

'Verily, the harshest of all voices is the voice (braying) of the ass'.[31:19]

As for the stylistic beauty (jamaal), this is to be found in the choice of the most pure and fitting expressions in the meaning one intends to express. And by selecting words and meanings which are together with these pure and fitting meanings in a sentence or sentences:

'Perhaps (often) will those who disbelieve wish that they were Muslims. Leave them to eat and enjoy, and let them be preoccupied with (false) hope. They will come to know.'[15:2-3]

The one who examines the Qur'an will find a lofty elevation with which the style of the Qur'an is characterized in terms of its clarity, force and beauty. Listen to the clarity, force and beauty:

'And among men is he who disputes about Allah, without knowledge or guidance, or a Book giving light (from Allah,- Bending his neck in pride, and leading (others) too (far) astray from the Path of Allah'.[22:8-9]

'These two opponents (believers and disbelievers) dispute with each other about their Lord; then as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling water will be poured down over their heads. With it will melt or vanish away what is within their bellies, as well as their skins. And for them are hooked rods of iron (to punish them). Every time they seek to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be driven back therein, and (it will be) said to them: "Taste the torment of burning"'.[22:19-22]

'O mankind! A similitude has been coined, so listen to it (carefully): Verily! Those on whom you call besides Allah, cannot create (even) a fly, even though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly snatched away a thing from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought'.[22:73]

The Qur'an is a special genre/style (tiraz) of expression. Its word arrangement (nazm) is not according to the method of metrical and rhythmic poetry (as-shi'r al-mawzun al-muqaffa) and nor is it according to the method of free prose (an-nathr al-mursal). And nor is it on the method of an-nathr al-mujdawij (has dual resemblance to rhymed and free prose) or rhymed prose. It is a method, which stands on its own, the Arabs did not have any acquaintance or knowledge of it before.

The Arabs, due to the extraordinary effect the Qur'an had on them, did not know from which angle it had reached this level of incapacitation (i'jaz). So they started to say:

'This is indeed clear magic'.[10:76]

And they began to say that it is the word of a poet and that he is a soothsayer. That is why Allah (swt) replied to them. He (swt) said:

'It is not the word of a poet, little is that you believe! Nor is it the word of a soothsayer, little is that you remember!'.[69:41-42]

The fact that the Qur'an is of a special genre/style and a unique structure is clear in every respect. So while you find the Qur'an saying:

'(Allah) will disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of a believing people'.[9:14]

And it says:

'By no means shall you attain piety (al-birr) unless you spend (in Allah's Cause) of that which you love'.[3:92]
Which is prose that is close to poetry, for if the two verses were arranged then they would be two verses/lines of poetry in the following manner:

( put in Arabic)

However they are not poetry, but rather a type of prose, which is unique. At a time when you find the Qur'an saying this type of prose, you find it saying:
'By the heaven, and at-Tariq (the night-comer, i.e. the bright star); and what will make you to know what at-Tariq (night-comer) is? (It is) the star of piercing brightness; There is no human being but has a protector over him (or her). So let man see from what he is created! He is created from a water gushing forth - . Proceeding from between the back-bone and the ribs'.[86:1-7]

Which is prose, and far from poetry in every respect. You also find it saying:

'We sent no Messenger, but to be obeyed by Allah's leave'.[4:64]

'If they (hypocrites), when they had been unjust to themselves, had come to you (Muhammad [saw]) and begged Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had begged forgiveness for them: indeed, they would have found Allah All-Forgiving, Most Merciful'.[4:64]

'But no, by your Lord, they can have no iman, until they make you the judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept them with full submission.'[4:65] So it lengthens the passage and style (nafas) in prose.

You find it saying:

'And by the sun and its brightness; And by the moon as it follows the sun; And by the day as it shows up (the sun's) brightness; And by the night as it conceals it (the sun)'.[91:1-4] It shortens the passage and style (nafas) in prose. Even though both are prose from passage to passage. Whilst you will find it innovating in free prose, thus it will be free in speech. So it says:

'O Messenger! Let not those who hurry to fall into disbelief grieve you, of such who say: "We belive" with their mouths but their hearts have no faith. And of the Jews are men who listen much and eagerly to lies - listen to others who have not come to you. They change the words from their places; they say, "If you are given this, take it, but if you are not given this, then beware!" And whomsoever Allah wants put in fitna (error), you can do nothing for him against Allah. Those are the ones whose hearts Allah does not want to purify; for them there is a disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a great torment'.[5:41]

You will find it innovating in rhymed prose, thus it will speak in rhymed prose. So it says:

'O you (Muhammad [saw]) enveloped (in garments)! Arise and warn! And your Lord (Allah) magnify! And your garments purify! And keep away from ar-rujz (the idols)! And give not a thing in order to have more (or consider not your deeds of Allah's obedience as a favour to Allah). And be patient for the sake of your Lord'.[74:1-7]


You will find it superior in ijdiwaj (prose which resembles rhymed or free prose) so it says:
'The mutual rivalry for piling up of worldly things diverts you. Until you visit the graves. Nay! You shall come to know! Again, Nay! You shall come to know! Nay! If you knew with a sure knowledge. Verily, you shall see blazing fire!'.[102:1-6]

You will find it lengthening the izdiwaj, so it will say:

'Be cursed (the disbelieving) man! How ungrateful he is! From what thing did He create him? From nutfa (semen) He created them, and then set him due proportion; Then He makes the Path easy for him; Then He causes him to die, and puts him in a grave; Then, when it is His Will, He will resurrect him (again). Nay, but (man) has not done what He commanded him. Then let man look at his food. That We pour forth water in abundance, and We split he earth in clefts, and We cause therein the grain to grow. And grapes and clover plants (green fodder for the cattle). And olives and date-palms. And gardens, dense with many trees. And fruits and Abba (herbage etc)'.[80:17-31]

Whilst proceeding on a certain rhymed prose it will move to another type of rhymed prose. So while proceeding in rhymed prose in the following:

'Then, when the Trumpet is sounded; Truly, that Day will be Hard Day. Fra from easy for the disbelievers'.[74:8-10]

It will abandon it in the verse immediately after it, so it says:

'Leave Me Alone (to deal) with whom I created Alone (ie al-walid b. al-Mughira al-Makhzumi)! And then granted him resources in abundance. And children to be by his side! And made life smooth and comfortable for him! After all that he desires - that I should give more; Nay! Verily, he has been stubborn and opposing Our Ayat (signs/proofs). I shall oblige him to face a severe torment!'.[74:11-17]

Then it will move from this rhymed prose to another type in the verse that immediately follows it, so it says:

'Verily, he thought and plotted; So let him be cursed, how he plotted! Then he thought; Then he frowned and he looked in bad tempered way; Then he turned back and he was proud'.[74:18-23]

In this manner examine the whole Qur'an, you will not find it adhering to anything from the style of the Arabs in terms of poetry or prose in their various types, and nor does it resemble any saying from the sayings of the Arabs or any saying from humankind.

Then you will indeed find its style is clear, forceful and beautiful which renders meanings in a manner of expression which depicts the meanings in the most accurate of depictions. When the meaning is delicate you find it saying:

'Verily, for the Muttaqun (Godfearing), there will be a success (Paradise);Gardens and grape yards. And maidens of equal age. And a full cup (of wine)'.[78-31-34] using delicate words and soft, flowing sentences.

And when the meaning is pure/eloquent it says:

'Truly, Hell is a place of ambush, a dwelling place for the Taghun (Those who transgress the limits set by Allah). They will abide therein for age, nothing cool shall they taste therein, nor any drink. Except boiling water, and dirty wound discharges. An exact recompense (according to their evil crimes)'.[78:21-26] using grand words and pure sentences. And when the meaning is pleasant it brings a pleasant words, so it says:

'And he raised his parents to the throne and they fell down before him prostrate'.[12:100]

And when the meaning is objectionable it comes with the appropriate word for this meaning, so it says:

'Is it for you the males and for Him the females? That indeed is a division most unfair'.[53:22] And it says:

'And lower your voice. Verily, the harshest of all voices is the voice (braying) of the ass'.[31:19]

The rendering of meaning had been accompanied with this manner of expression which depicts the meanings, giving attention to words which have the sound/tones which moves the soul, when imagining them, towards these meanings and their comprehension. That is why it used to evoke in the listener who comprehends, due to the depth of its meanings and the eloquence of its expression, a tremendous humility until some of the Arab thinkers who were well versed in eloquence almost prostrated before it despite their disbelief and obstinacy.

Then, indeed the one who scrutinises the words of the Qur'an and its sentences will find that the Qur'an gives attention to, when placing letters together, the sounds that come out from their places of articulation. So the letters close to each other in articulation are placed close to each other in a word or sentence. And when there is a distance between the places of articulation, they are separated with a letter, which eliminates the strangeness of the transition. And at the same time it makes a letter pleasant in articulation and light on the ears to be repeated like the refrain in music. It does not say 'kal ba'iq a-mudfiq' but 'kasayyib'. And nor does it say 'al-hu'khu'' but 'sundusu khudrin'. And when it is necessary to use letters which are placed distanced from each other in a meaning which befits it and nothing else gives that meaning like the word 'deeza'. There is no point in using the word 'zalima' or 'ja'ira' in its place even though the meaning is one. In additon to this precision in usage, the letter which makes .......is clearly found in verses with some frequency. The Verse of the Throne (ayatul kursiyy) for example has the letter lam repeated in it 23 times in a pleasant manner which has an impact on the hearing such that it makes people prick up their ears and want to hear more.

In this manner, you will find that the Qur'an is a special genre. And you will find it reveals all of its meanings in the expression that befits it, in the words around it and the meanings with it. You will not find that lacking in any of its verses. Its incapacitation (i'jaz) is clear in its style in terms of being a special genre of speech which does not resemble any speech of human beings or vise versa, and in terms of the application of meanings in words and sentences which befit them and in terms of the effect/impression of the words on the hearing of the one who comprehends its eloquence and looks deeply into its meanings, so he becomes humble to the point of almost prostrating to it. And the effect it has on the hearing of the one who does not comprehend that, the ring and sound of these words captivate him and hold him spellbound in an incapacitating manner to which the listener humbles himself by force even though he may not understand its meanings. Therefore, it is a miracle, which will remain a miracle until the Final Hour.

Taken from Shaksiya Volume 1 Hizb ut Tahrir (authored by Taquideen an-nabhani (rahim Allah).

abu imaan an-nepalee
22nd March 2007, 04:57 PM
http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=3377

Husain
23rd March 2007, 08:08 AM
To make it short: Who said Alif-Laam-Meem?

- Husain.

Salahudin
23rd March 2007, 12:12 PM
Again I ask my, 'salafi' brothers not to overstep the limitations set by Allah (swt). Muhammed (saw) said,"Ponder over the creatures of Allah and do not ponder over the Being of Allah, lest it destroys you."

Like I said no-one denies Alif Laam, Meem is in the Quran...but then to speculate about letters and sounds is to to try to Perceive the Being of Allah (swt) which is prohibited....why not leave it at Quran is the Speech of Allah (swt)..that He (swt) chose to reveal to us...why delve into something which is beyond the senses?

Abuz Zubair
23rd March 2007, 12:39 PM
Again I ask my, 'salafi' brothers not to overstep the limitations set by Allah (swt). Muhammed (saw) said,"Ponder over the creatures of Allah and do not ponder over the Being of Allah, lest it destroys you."

Like I said no-one denies Alif Laam, Meem is in the Quran...but then to speculate about letters and sounds is to to try to Perceive the Being of Allah (swt) which is prohibited....why not leave it at Quran is the Speech of Allah (swt)..that He (swt) chose to reveal to us...why delve into something which is beyond the senses?
This is outrageous....

You guys are the ones to ponder too deeply about Allah that you dictate that Allah must not speak with letters and sound, even though NONE of that is stated in ANY of the divine scriptures, let alone the Quran.

And when we challenge your rational absurdity, you ironically claim that you do not want to think too deeply about Allah?!

Rather, you do not want to think too deeply about the rational garbage that you have been indoctrinated with. As Ibn Hajar said, people of Kalam are the most staunchest and ignorant of all muqallids, and you, dear brother, are a shining example of that.

Go to some remote village in Pakistan and ask any ignorant and illiterate Muslim WHO said Alif-Laam-Meem, and he would tell you: Allah! Because something as basic as this does not require deep thinking into Allah's being... this is common knowledge, which you are denying due to your obstinacy.

Imagine this dialogue between a HT and Christian:

HT: Bible is not God's word because it has many discrepancies.

Christian: And neither is the Quran, because your God does not speak with Words.

Lastly, brother Salahudin, your obstinacy does not help your cause or that of your party. Open mindedness is what attracts your so-called 'contacts'. This is why I like many of the leading HTs because we can have fair and balanced conversation about issues. But I cannot stand bigots. I really can't.

jinnzaman
23rd March 2007, 05:49 PM
To make it short: Who said Alif-Laam-Meem?

- Husain.

Who heard Alif-Lam-Meem directly from Allah (subhana wa ta'a'ala) as the sound entered their ears and, more importantly, whats the daleel for this and is this daleel conclusive?

Is speaking with sound an attribute of creation or the Creator? Is seeing by light an attribute of the creation or the Creator?

Husain
23rd March 2007, 06:01 PM
Who heard Alif-Lam-Meem directly from Allah (subhana wa ta'a'ala) as the sound entered their ears and, more importantly, whats the daleel for this and is this daleel conclusive?

Is speaking with sound an attribute of creation or the Creator? Is seeing by light an attribute of the creation or the Creator?
Still you are unable to answer such a simple question...

- Husain.

Salahudin
23rd March 2007, 06:43 PM
This is outrageous....

You guys are the ones to ponder too deeply about Allah that you dictate that Allah must not speak with letters and sound, even though NONE of that is stated in ANY of the divine scriptures, let alone the Quran.

And when we challenge your rational absurdity, you ironically claim that you do not want to think too deeply about Allah?!

Rather, you do not want to think too deeply about the rational garbage that you have been indoctrinated with. As Ibn Hajar said, people of Kalam are the most staunchest and ignorant of all muqallids, and you, dear brother, are a shining example of that.

Go to some remote village in Pakistan and ask any ignorant and illiterate Muslim WHO said Alif-Laam-Meem, and he would tell you: Allah! Because something as basic as this does not require deep thinking into Allah's being... this is common knowledge, which you are denying due to your obstinacy.

Imagine this dialogue between a HT and Christian:

HT: Bible is not God's word because it has many discrepancies.

Christian: And neither is the Quran, because your God does not speak with Words.

Lastly, brother Salahudin, your obstinacy does not help your cause or that of your party. Open mindedness is what attracts your so-called 'contacts'. This is why I like many of the leading HTs because we can have fair and balanced conversation about issues. But I cannot stand bigots. I really can't.

abu-zubair, why is it that you have to 'make things up' about the Party?
Please read the 'attributes of Allah' posting and then try to appreciate why people like you are making the same mistake as the Mutazillah in using your mind to delve into the prohibited..why delve into Allah (swt) attributes and risk anthropomorphism?
We use the ration to perceive Allah's existence NOT his Being! Appreciate the difference.

Muhammed (saw) said,"Ponder over the creatures of Allah and do not ponder over the Being of Allah, lest it destroys you."

asharee_salafi
23rd March 2007, 06:56 PM
Abuz Zubair.

Nice replies bro, but I just don't know which HT members you are talking about...I woud liKe to meet them!

Salahudeen.

You keep making a proper toerag out of yourself, stop while you have a chance, expand your horizons.

Make statements such as who said Alif Lam Meem is not delving into Allah's nature, what an absurd thing to say!

So again,

Who said Alif Lam Meem

Salahudin
23rd March 2007, 07:05 PM
READ CAREFULLY!

From Shaksiya Vloume 1

"For example, logically it is said that: the Quran is the speech of Allah; it is made up of letters which are arranged and sequenced in existence, and every speech which is made up of letters which are arranged and sequenced in existence is recent. The conclusion is that the Quran is recent and created. This syllogizing of premises has lead to a conclusion which in inaccessible to the senses; so the intellect is incapable of discussing it or judging it. Therefore, it is a hypothetical unrealistic judgement, apart from being one of the issues which the intellect has been prohibited from discussing. This is because a discussion of the attributes of Allah is a discussion of his entity, and in no way is it permissible to discuss the entity of Allah. Yet, it is possible to reach via the same logic to a conclusion contradictory to this one. Thus it would be said that: the Quran is the speech of Allah and it is one of its attributes, and any thing deemed an attribute of Allah is eternal; the conclusion is that the Quran is eternal and not created. Thus, contradiction in logic is evident in one and the same proposition. Likewise, in many logical propositions that are resultant from the syllogizing of comprehensibles on comprehensibles, a logician reaches conclusions which are utterly contradictory and utterly bizarre...."

Salahudin
23rd March 2007, 07:28 PM
Abuz Zubair.

Nice replies bro, but I just don't know which HT members you are talking about...I woud liKe to meet them!

Salahudeen.

You keep making a proper toerag out of yourself, stop while you have a chance, expand your horizons.

Make statements such as who said Alif Lam Meem is not delving into Allah's nature, what an absurd thing to say!

So again,

Who said Alif Lam Meem

What do you mean 'said'? and what does 'said' mean when talking about Allah (swt)?
Has the Quran got letters...sure it has...Allah (swt) revealed the Quran..we know it is His (swt) speech because of the miraculous nature of Quran...we call it speech because it conforms to the conventions of what is speech..words and meanings!

asharee_salafi
23rd March 2007, 08:12 PM
Thanks for that, now answer the question.

You have a habit of running away from questions, esp by abu Imaan.
And when you do answer , you don't answer the point.

You know very well, that if Allah speaks with letters, then this would contradict the HT SOAS/greek methodology of proving God, because everything that has a beginning is created....but in this instance it isn't. i.e Allah speaks with letters but its not created, its emergent.

So you admit, that its words....but are those words composed of letters and sounds?

Also, who said Alif Lam Meem?? WAS IT ALLAH?!

Salahudeen, if you don't know, then why are you arguing for? What is the pride in you that you dont ask questions to those that can answer...so if you feel something is tashbih, then make your intentions clear, and ask a question,
Both me and you are laymans, so we can't really debate--- but only learn.

And this is something you need to do, for instance, who are your scholars in the party? in fact, who is the amir of your party....as you can see , it looks quite bleek for you.

In fact I know how isolated you must feel, you have so many doubts, and the only way you can repel them is just be changing the topic, twisnting things, or your typical move run away. Furthermore, you must be tired of giving halaqah's ( if your a mushraf) and you must be tired of your mushraf, you probably know he is a fraudster, you probbaly are so lost in the Deen, you have no where to turn, apart from the hearsay on HT2 forums, but you think that you have no choice, after all 'how else will I acheive my fard?!'

( its okay bro, you don't have to admit it, both I and abu Imaan understand, aswell as others here)

I think your questions would be better adressed if you

1. Actually understood what was being talked about.
2. Ask for sincerity, you have actions of someone who is a sick heart.

It actually quite sadening to see you disgraced like this.

jus some random thoughts.

Skillganon
23rd March 2007, 09:15 PM
READ CAREFULLY!

From Shaksiya Vloume 1

"For example, logically it is said that: the Quran is the speech of Allah; it is made up of letters which are arranged and sequenced in existence, and every speech which is made up of letters which are arranged and sequenced in existence is recent. The conclusion is that the Quran is recent and created. This syllogizing of premises has lead to a conclusion which in inaccessible to the senses; so the intellect is incapable of discussing it or judging it. Therefore, it is a hypothetical unrealistic judgement, apart from being one of the issues which the intellect has been prohibited from discussing. This is because a discussion of the attributes of Allah is a discussion of his entity, and in no way is it permissible to discuss the entity of Allah. Yet, it is possible to reach via the same logic to a conclusion contradictory to this one. Thus it would be said that: the Quran is the speech of Allah and it is one of its attributes, and any thing deemed an attribute of Allah is eternal; the conclusion is that the Quran is eternal and not created. Thus, contradiction in logic is evident in one and the same proposition. Likewise, in many logical propositions that are resultant from the syllogizing of comprehensibles on comprehensibles, a logician reaches conclusions which are utterly contradictory and utterly bizarre...."

Assalamu alaikum wr wb

Well than it is more rational to abandon these theoritical speculation and affirm what is clear in the Quran and the hadith that Allah spoke with word and sound.

It is, of course, essential to keep in mind that the Speech of Allaah does not resemble that of His creation, and therefore it is impermissible to ask how Allaah speaks, for Allaah says, "There is nothing similar to Him, and He is the All-Hearer, All-Seer"(42:11)

Further "expression" is an ambigous term but if you mean it is the word Allah spoke, than you are in agreement.

Wassalam

I suggest people abandon such argument as it creates more fitnah and does no good.

jinnzaman
24th March 2007, 12:27 AM
The reason why sound is an inherent aspect of speech is because created things communicate primarily through the use of a body organ which utilizes sound patterns.

Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) is free from such needs. Regardless if He wills sound into existence, it is not a necessary component of His essence.

The speech which contains sound is not divine; it is not part of Allah's dhat. It is external. Hence the Ashari postulation.

Skillganon
24th March 2007, 09:56 AM
The reason why sound is an inherent aspect of speech is because created things communicate primarily through the use of a body organ which utilizes sound patterns.

Here is the thing your analogy is with created thing and Allah(swt) is not created.

Here is the dictionary defenition of speech:

1. the faculty or power of speaking; oral communication; ability to express one's thoughts and emotions by speech sounds and gesture: Losing her speech made her feel isolated from humanity.

Remember Allah(swt) does not resemblance his creation. Bearing that in mind Allah(swt) his speech words by sound does not resemblance his creation.
Neither it constitute Allah having a bodily( organ) to speak.

Does Allah(swt) need a brain to have knowledge?
Does he need a brain(bodily organ) to have a will?


Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) is free from such needs. Regardless if He wills sound into existence, it is not a necessary component of His essence.

So when one use the expression (ast stated in the opening thread) than let's see the dictionary definition:

1. the act of expressing or setting forth in words: the free expression of political opinions.
2. a particular word, phrase, or form of words: old-fashioned expressions.
3. the manner or form in which a thing is expressed in words; wording; phrasing: delicacy of expression.
4. the power of expressing in words: joy beyond expression.
5. indication of feeling, spirit, character, etc., as on the face, in the voice, or in artistic execution: the lyric expression embodied in his poetry.
6. a look or intonation expressing personal reaction, feeling, etc.: a shocked expression.
7. the quality or power of expressing an attitude, emotion, etc.: a face that lacks expression; to read with expression.


You see from all this definition by one's false logic, it will constitute Allah(swt) of having body organs, as this cannot be done without any bodily organs,limbs e.t.c.

The only thing here one has to conclude is that allah(swt) never spoke, never expressed himself in anyway.
Thus all the revelation e.t.c was not from Allah(swt). When you do that than remember:

Allaah says, "I will burn him in the Hell-Fire" (74:26) to him who said, "This (the Qur`aan) is nothing but the words of a mortal" (74:25)

The speech which contains sound is not divine; it is not part of Allah's dhat. It is external. Hence the Ashari postulation.

Now you realized the flaw of your argument. Now one can happily affirm that Allah "spoke" with sound and It is, of course, essential to keep in mind that the Speech of Allaah does not resemble that of His creation, bearing in mind Allaah says, "There is nothing similar to Him, and He is the All-Hearer, All-Seer"(42:11)


Don't forget:

The Prophet (e) also said in reference to the Qur`aan,

"The superiority of the kalaam of Allaah over all other kalaam is (like) the superiority of Allaah over His Creation." [1]


reference:

[1] Shaykh Abû Ammâr Yasir al-Qadhî,The Qur'aan as the Kalaam of Allaah .

abu imaan an-nepalee
24th March 2007, 11:03 AM
Again I ask my, 'salafi' brothers not to overstep the limitations set by Allah (swt). Muhammed (saw) said,"Ponder over the creatures of Allah and do not ponder over the Being of Allah, lest it destroys you."

Like I said no-one denies Alif Laam, Meem is in the Quran...but then to speculate about letters and sounds is to to try to Perceive the Being of Allah (swt) which is prohibited....why not leave it at Quran is the Speech of Allah (swt)..that He (swt) chose to reveal to us...why delve into something which is beyond the senses?


then


What do you mean 'said'? and what does 'said' mean when talking about Allah (swt)?
Has the Quran got letters...sure it has...Allah (swt) revealed the Quran..we know it is His (swt) speech because of the miraculous nature of Quran...we call it speech because it conforms to the conventions of what is speech..words and meanings!


hmmmmm!

asharee_salafi
24th March 2007, 04:44 PM
Salahudeen,

Is saying that Allah is merciful, or that he is living, stepping over the mark?

Abuz Zubair
24th March 2007, 09:27 PM
abu-zubair, why is it that you have to 'make things up' about the Party?
Please read the 'attributes of Allah' posting and then try to appreciate why people like you are making the same mistake as the Mutazillah in using your mind to delve into the prohibited..why delve into Allah (swt) attributes and risk anthropomorphism?
We use the ration to perceive Allah's existence NOT his Being! Appreciate the difference.

Muhammed (saw) said,"Ponder over the creatures of Allah and do not ponder over the Being of Allah, lest it destroys you."

What am I making up?

I asked you a simple question: Who said Alif-Lam-Mim... Your failure to respond to this question suggests that someone other than Allah said Alif-Lam-Mim. And if this is your belief, then please inform us, who spoke the Quran, if not Allah?

You said you use ration to perceive Allah's existence, and not His being, they why do you feel that you must negate sound and letters from Allah? This is when Allah literally affirms for us that He called out to Musa, and that every single word and letter in the Quran is literally His Speech?

Be consistent.

If you only use ration to perceive God exists, they do not go a step beyond it. But you guys seem to be go miles beyond it, and then censure us for the same, when we object to your somewhat blasphemous contemplation on Allah's being!

jinnzaman
25th March 2007, 07:51 AM
What am I making up?

I asked you a simple question: Who said Alif-Lam-Mim... Your failure to respond to this question suggests that someone other than Allah said Alif-Lam-Mim. And if this is your belief, then please inform us, who spoke the Quran, if not Allah?

You said you use ration to perceive Allah's existence, and not His being, they why do you feel that you must negate sound and letters from Allah? This is when Allah literally affirms for us that He called out to Musa, and that every single word and letter in the Quran is literally His Speech?

Be consistent.

If you only use ration to perceive God exists, they do not go a step beyond it. But you guys seem to be go miles beyond it, and then censure us for the same, when we object to your somewhat blasphemous contemplation on Allah's being!

Again, my question to you is: who heard the sound of Alif Laam Meem with their ears.

With regards to the definition of speech, your definition is based upon sensory perception. If humans lacked the organ for producing sound, they would still be able to speak. Speech is not intrinsically related to sound. Animals can communicate with or without sound. If you are going to say that the term 'speech' contains within it the implicit assumption that it has sound, then you have to accept the other implication, which is that sound is produced from the body organ, which we as Muslims deny for Allah (subhana wa ta'ala).

Your definition of 'speech' is based on the creation whereas the Ashari definition is based on the Creator with an emphasis on the dissimilarity to the Creation because this befits His majesty and we do not delve into the howness.

Husain
25th March 2007, 10:53 AM
Again, my question to you is: who heard the sound of Alif Laam Meem with their ears.
What's that got to do with the topic? If one asks who said this and that, it is irrelevant whether or not somebody else heard it with his ears.

Speech is not intrinsically related to sound. Animals can communicate with or without sound.
Your second sentence contains the answer already. Yes, animals communicate with and without sounds, but this is NOT called speaking. Ants organize their roads by laying out scents, yet have you ever heard somebody saying ants talk to each other? They communicate, but they do definitely not speak.

If you are going to say that the term 'speech' contains within it the implicit assumption that it has sound, then you have to accept the other implication, which is that sound is produced from the body organ, which we as Muslims deny for Allah (subhana wa ta'ala).
And your denial is not based on what Allaah and His messenger said, but on what Greek philosophers said. You could use the same logic for denying hearing, seeing and even knowledge for Allaah, as for us human beings hearing requires ears, seeing requires eyes and knowledge requires a brain.

Your definition of 'speech' is based on the creation whereas the Ashari definition is based on the Creator with an emphasis on the dissimilarity to the Creation because this befits His majesty and we do not delve into the howness.
We all agree that the Creator is different from His creation. But what's that got to do with the Creator speaking without sounds is probably know to you alone.

- Husain.

Abuz Zubair
25th March 2007, 11:53 AM
Sorry brother jinnzaman, I was actually addressing brother Salah al-Din... Although, I wouldn't mind discussing with you if we go back to the thread we started long time ago on the same topic?