Another thread on... guess what?

[Umm]

Totally agree with not dismissing their past efforts. However, that does not mean that we should underestimate the seriousness of the misdirection that they are leading the masses to.

Well, I too, believe we are here to stay... as I have said in other threads, that those who expect the Muslims to mass-migrate to somewhere else are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Although, this is where we split, as one may argue. I believe in asserting our identity and rights as much as possible, just as the gov. seeks to dilute our identity and rights as much as possible. Hence, according to my vision we require activism, confidence, independence, assertiveness, courage and bravery, in order to save us from erosion.

Pre-9/11, that might have happened. After, this is like believing in Santa. Why do you need mass migration of 650+ million Muslims, when the majority of those are probably not even praying? The majority of which would happily leave their deen to keep the privilige of being a British Muslim?

What is the percentage of practicing Muslims, who would need to make a hijrah in order to be able to wear the full hijaab (including niqaab), have a beard and not be passed over when promotions are up etc? You are talking about less than 1%. And hijrah for them is possible.

It isn't nice walking down a shopping aisle and having small children sworn at, just because the local news has "terror arrests" on the front pages. And even though this might happen once in a blue moon, the fact is, even young children are seen differently, because they are Muslims. What do we say? "Oh no, little Abdullah. It isn't because you are a Muslim. Don't we have British passports and the same rights as everyone else in this country?"

We as Muslims have not contributed anything to the UK society of a tangible benefit, so why would the public [bar a few] fight for our rights? They know that our way of life is alien to theirs and both sides are at loggerheads. It is like flogging a dead horse, trying to set a permanent base here.

The Bosnians Muslims, why were they slaughtered? They were barely any different from the Serbs, but even that wasn't enough to save them.

[Ibn_Anas]

I agree sister Umm......

[thefitrah]

You are talking about less than 1%. And hijrah for them is possible.

as shaykh yasir qadhi touched upon yesterday at the Islamic Centre in whitechappel (paraphrashed):

"those muslims who are committed to their deen should be the ones who stay in the land of the kuffar and spread the deen, and establish a strong presence of practicing active muslims.

those who are neglectful of Islam are the ones who need to get out and move to somewhere where evil is not so open and easily indulged into.

hijrah for the western muslims:impractable and impossible.

[Umm]

I disagree. When Muslim sisters will be forced to cast aside their niqaabs eventually, even though they might consider wearing it waajib, then what?

When Islamic schools and madrasahs become 100% government controlled, so our children are taught that homosexuality is normal, then what?

When we are foced to abandon our religion, what position will we all be in to make da'wah?

And where and when do you draw the line?

[S1ave0fA11ah]

I agree fully with Umm on that point of mass immigration - it aint happening because the Muslims, for whatever reasons (e.g. ignorance, love of luxury/dunya) love life in the West over other lands. There are what - 1.6 million UK Muslims?. OK I would guess at least 75% (maximum 90%) don't pray 5 times daily - perhaps lots go to Jummah prayers, maybe some pray some prayers. LOADS of brothers/sisters have: drug issues, girl/boyfriends, crimes (I heard that Asians are the MOST in jails in proportion to their race in the UK) etc. How many brothers have beards? - very few. How many sisters do you see wearing tight-fitting jeans, loads of make-up/plucked eyebrows and to "piously" cover it all up a little scarf on their heads? - lots. They expose their beauty to all and sundry when Allah COMMANDS the believing women to have 'hijab' and close the doorways to Zina i.e. modesty in general not modesty in comparison to kuffar standards!.

OK now the 25% (or 10%?) who DO pray 5 times a day - how many are ahlus-sunnah? - few. They comprose: sufis, ahmadis, brailwees, tableeghis, shia etc. - a lot (and I'm NOT making outright takfeer here on EACH AND EVERY ONE) - are not much different from the kuffar e.g. ahmadis or shia. Anyway point is they LOVE it and are here to stay. Not all are in this boat - some have no choice of moving and have to stay or some other need (dawah etc.).


We as Muslims have not contributed anything to the UK society of a tangible benefit, so why would the public [bar a few] fight for our rights? They know that our way of life is alien to theirs and both sides are at loggerheads. It is like flogging a dead horse, trying to set a permanent base here.

That point I disagree on. We've contributed LOADS - in fact, in my opinion, too much. Take our lack of boozing for example. Were not the waves of drunken chavs vandelising property and mugging old folk in this society where crime is ever-increasing. Has a practising brother ever mugged an old lady?! - I mean regular like with a thowb and beard wielding a knife??!!?. A sister in full hijaab/niqaab doing prostituion?!?!. Naaah mate. Alcohol related crimes are sky high (I heard something like 50% of all crimes are alcohol related) and they cost a mamouth amount too in terms of money and lives emotionally ruined. Were not the ones selling dope or cocaine etc. Were not getting a teenage girl pregnant and then running off and getting her teenage friend pregnant and the running off again and again. The contribution of tangible benefit is huge - what is lacking is the recognition/acknowledgement of it which is THOROUGHLY unjust. Thats because Muslims are treated like 10th grade citizens (i.e. at best fanatics, at worst terrorists) - stats proove it; worst housing areas, jobs, medical and so on. At the core though its because they are jealous of the goodness we are upon = Islam and they want to remove it from us and make us like them, fair means or foul. Nothing solves the alcohol/drugs issues, racism etc. like Islam - no wonder its the world's fastest growing religion. Where your flogging a dead horse is trying to change these places - not the permanent base bit - it won't happen for milleniums according to Sh. Al-Albaani (rahimuallah).

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

as shaykh yasir qadhi touched upon yesterday at the Islamic Centre in whitechappel (paraphrashed):

"those muslims who are committed to their deen should be the ones who stay in the land of the kuffar and spread the deen, and establish a strong presence of practicing active muslims.

those who are neglectful of Islam are the ones who need to get out and move to somewhere where evil is not so open and easily indulged into.

hijrah for the western muslims:impractable and impossible.

i disagree with the ustad,

Many people suffer different things, I don't see the muslim communities as being strong enough here to help deal with eachothers issues that is why we are either too individual or too hizbified i.e. we deal with matters based upn hizbiyyah like helping out only those in our group,party association etc.

That has led many people to have to deal with matters themselves and they may have had to assess the situation and concluded that hijrah is better than staying where they are.

The fact that hijrah is limited to handfuls of people right now I don't see the comment about these muhajirs deen as productive.

I will also point out that not every comunity is the same and yes we should try and build them up here so we can deal with problems here, as I don't foresee a mass migration neither, however try telling those muslims who have been severly attacked for their deen that they are doing hijrah because they are not commited enough to their deen.

wa ALLAHU A'am

[S1ave0fA11ah]

as shaykh yasir qadhi touched upon yesterday at the Islamic Centre in whitechappel (paraphrashed):

"those muslims who are committed to their deen should be the ones who stay in the land of the kuffar and spread the deen, and establish a strong presence of practicing active muslims.

those who are neglectful of Islam are the ones who need to get out and move to somewhere where evil is not so open and easily indulged into.

hijrah for the western muslims:impractable and impossible.

Yeah I agreee with Abu Imaan's points. As for what Yasir Qadhi said above - I think people are comitted to their deen but weak due to oppression. My point is you HAVE to be committed to your deen else you will be 'eaten up' and hence I believe those 2 catagories are sort of inaccurate. If he was referrring to Daees then yes they bring benefit residing here and are allowed to do so. The types of people who should reside in the West are specific - explained by people with knowledge much greater than Yasir Qadhi (all due respect) such as Shaikh Ibn-Uthaymeen (rahimuallah) - which I'm sure Yasir would be the first to affirm, so Insh'Allah no probs there. Where I have an issue is in all and sundry becomming 'overnight daees' and justifying there residence. They seem to be of the worst of Muslims and cause much problems when speaking without ilm because quite frankly they have not studied anywhere in any quantity to make themselves strong enough.

As for your last comment : "hijrah for the western muslims:impractable and impossible". Well please show some proof for this statement. I agree it is VERY difficult i.e. impractical as you say. Impossible? - thats another level as some people (albeit very few) have already probably done it e.g. dual-nationals going back to their lands of origin etc.

[thefitrah]

I disagree. When Muslim sisters will be forced to cast aside their niqaabs eventually, even though they might consider wearing it waajib, then what?

well this is a reality in many muslim lands anyway (tunisia, turkey etc).

Hijrah is made to a place where one can practice their Deen more efficiently

I agree with brother Abu Iman that the practibility and choice of Hijrah is relative to the individual whehter they are practicing or not.

. dual-nationals going back to their lands of origin etc.

well the reality is that most Muslims in the west are born and raised in this country

this is the place they call home

western Muslims are a unique product of their enviroment-their mentality, behaviour is all due to their being raised in the west

Yasir Qadhi also asked the audience rhetorically, where they would have been preferred to been born-'back home' or where they were born i.e West.

he himself admitted that he is grateful that he was born in the west due to the mentality. take the best of the culture (which is due to the pre-renaissance influence Muslims had on europe) and leave the ever prevalent filth.