How to fold the hands during qiyam in salah in the Hanbali Madhab for woman?

[AbuNaim]

As salamu aleykum,

What is the ruling on folding the hands during qiyam in salah in the Hanbali Madhab for Woman?

Was salaam

[Abu_Abdillah2000]

Same as men, right over left below the navel.

[AbuNaim]

Same as men, right over left below the navel.


Ok thank you, but can you also give a referance?

Its surprising that the salafis who claim to follow the hanbali madhab reject this.

[Abu_Abdillah2000]

Ok thank you, but can you also give a referance?

Its surprising that the salafis who claim to follow the hanbali madhab reject this.

Reference? Go and look at any hanbali fiqh book, they'll all say the same thing.

This is the position of the madhhab. However scholars within the madhhab have differed on it, and there are actually 3 narrations from Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal on where the hands should be placed:

1 - Above the navel.
2 - Below the navel.
3 - One has a choice, above or below the navel.

The only "salafis" who have a real problem with this are generally those who have little if any knowledge, and the sum total of whose "knowledge" is that they've read a few translated books by al-Albani and a handful of online fatwas.

Also, many of those same "salafis" don't claim to follow the hanbali madhhab, rather they claim that they don't need to follow a madhhab at all.

(I'm not talking here about those hanbali 'ulama who preferred the other scholarly views based on their ijtihad like Ibn Baz, Ibn 'Uthaymin etc.)

In the end, it is not a big deal either way, wallahu a'lam.

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

as salaamu alaykum

This is the problem i have with some salafis. They want you to make salah their way etc.. I love hanafi madhab (shafii madhab aswell). I have a book in which gives adilla for the hanafi way of salah and the proofs are strong. Yet a salafi would buck at some people if you pray that way. They constantly accuse the ahnaf of being weak in ahadith whereas imaam abu hanifa was a hadith scholar aswell. This is testified i believe also by dhahabi. Allaah's mercy cover them all.

[AbuNaim]

salafis did let die out the hanbali madhab

[abu hafs]

salafis did let die out the hanbali madhab
May be thats why its still used in the saudi courts up until today ....

[Abu_Abdallah]

salafis did let die out the hanbali madhab

What's your problem with Salafis, brother Abu Naim?

[Abuz Zubair]

What's your problem with Salafis, brother Abu Naim?
Just blind hate, it seems.

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

Ok thank you, but can you also give a referance?

Its surprising that the salafis who claim to follow the hanbali madhab reject this.

i pray with my hands below the navel, and others just above and some on their chest. whats the problemo mayn?

[juwairiyah]

Assalamo'alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh

But it's on the chest for men and women

[Abuz Zubair]

Assalamo'alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh

But it's on the chest for men and women
According to one opinion in the Shafi'i madhab

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

as salaamu alaykum,

thats interesting that the women hands will be the same as the man in the salah.

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

as salaamu alaykum

can someone explain how a woman does sujud and sitting between prostrations and tashahud?

[mosa]

According to one opinion in the Shafi'i madhab
Brother, which scholar's opinion? Jazakallah khair

[Ibn malik]

as salaamu alaykum,

thats interesting that the women hands will be the same as the man in the salah.
Why is it interesting, because unless we find the Prophet (s) specifying something like this shouldn't we just understand it to be a general rule on both men and women?

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

as salaamu alaykum,

can someone please answer jazakallah khayr

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

as salaamu alaykum

ibn malik its because i never heard of women praying with hands below naval.

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

anybody?please?

[Magoo]

i remember AZ mentioning that the hanbali position for womens hands is below the navel, im not sure how much this is practised anymore

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

as-salaamu alaykum,

Here is an interesting quote from Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan hafidullah

quote concerning strange manners of doing salah he says 'For instance, some of them may bow their heads while standing as if they were in a state of bowing. They may also put their hands on the upper part of the chest, under the neck, instead of putting them on the chest or under the naval as stated in the sunnah."

Taken from A Summary of Islamic Jurisprudence.

So it seems that shaykh saalih al fawzaan hafidullah believes that it is from the sunnah to place the hands directly on the chest or under the naval.

[Adeel]

Can someone quote a hadith for below the navel? I have heard from some that below the navel was also the position of the Sheikhul Islam. Can someone confirm this?

[junaid123]

Can someone quote a hadith for below the navel? I have heard from some that below the navel was also the position of the Sheikhul Islam. Can someone confirm this?

what should confirm? that the position of sheihul islam was below the navel?
for whom? for woman or man?

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

as salaamu alaykum,

There are some ahadith on placing hands below the naval, however it seems all of them have some weakness. But some Ulama say that all the ahadith with their supporting evidence reach a level of hasan. This is what was stated in fiqh al imam-key proofs of hanafi salah. I know that ibn qayyim rahimahullah in zaad al-ma'ad said hands below the naval based on the hadith of Ali ibn Abu Talib radiallahu anhu.

Ali (radhiya Allahu ‘Anhu) said,

“It is from the Sunnah that one places the right hand upon the left hand below the navel in Salaah.” Reported by Ahmad.

Imaam Mar’iee ibn Yusuf Al Hanbali states in his “Daleel At-Taalib ‘Alaal Madh-hab Mubajal Al Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal”

“And one places their right upon their left below their navel and looks to place of prostration.”

Al Bahooti states, [Below his navel] It is mustahabb (recommended) due to the statement of ‘Ali (alayhis salaam) “It is from the sunnah to place the right upon the left below the navel.” Reported by Ahmad and Abu Daawood.

Ibn Qudamah also states in his Al-Muqni’,

“Then one establishes his right hand upon the wrist of the left and places them below the navel and looks to the place of his prostration.” [Muqni’ page 28; Dār Al Kutub Al-‘Ilmiyyah]

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

It seems that if all the ahadith on placing hands on chest are weak and also the same with placing below the naval, then with the supporting evidence for each it seems like both (hands on chest and below naval) would be acceptable. Perhaps thats why Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan accepts both view.

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

Ibn al Qayyim al Jawziyyah rahimahullah in his Badai' al Fawaid, 'It is makrooh (undesirable) to place the hands on the chest in view of the narration that the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) forbade takfeer, which is to place the hands on the chest.' (Bada'i al Fawa'id, 3/73)

[AbuNaim]

as salaamu alaykum,
I know that ibn qayyim rahimahullah in zaad al-ma'ad said hands below the naval based on the hadith of Ali ibn Abu Talib radiallahu anhu.

Ali (radhiya Allahu ‘Anhu) said,

“It is from the Sunnah that one places the right hand upon the left hand below the navel in Salaah.” Reported by Ahmad.




Ibn Qayyim declared the narration from Hadrat Ali (ra) for placing under the navel - to be Sahih in his Bada'i al-Fawa'id, as did the Hanbali Hafiz: Diyaud-Din al Maqdisi in al-Mukhtara.

Ibn al-Qayyim the student of Ibn Taymiyyah writes in his Badai' al Fawaid (3/73) that Abu Talaib said:

"I asked Ahmed bin Hanbal, "Where should one place his hands when praying?" He replied, "upon the naval or below it".


Here is a scan from Bada'i al-Fawaid:

http://www1.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/34d615ede88cf140c652a76750487ee25g.jpg

The hadith is in al-Mukhtarah of al-Maqdisi. Here it is:


الأحاديث المختارة للضياء المقدسي - (ج2 / ص 386)
771 أخبرنا المبارك بن أبي المعالي ببغداد أن هبة الله أخبرهم قراءة عليه أنا الحسن بن علي أنا أحمد بن جعفر ثنا عبدالله بن أحمد ثنا محمد بن سليمان الأسدي لوين ثنا يحيى بن أبي زائدة ثنا عبدالرحمن بن إسحاق عن زياد بن زيد السوائي عن أبي جحيفة عن علي قال إن من السنة في الصلاة وضع الأكف على الأكف تحت السرة ورواه أبو معاوية عن عبدالرحمن إلا أنه قال زياد بن زياد

772 أخبرنا المؤيد بن عبدالرحيم بن الأخوة وعائشة بنت معمر بن عبدالواحد بن الفاخر أن سعيد بن أبي الرجاء الصيرفي أخبرهم قراءة عليه أنا أحمد بن محمد بن أحمد بن النعمان أنا محمد بن إبراهيم بن علي بن المقرئ أنا إسحاق بن أحمد بن نافع الخزاعي أنا ابن أبي عمر هو محمد بن يحيى العدني ثنا أبو معاوية ثنا عبدالرحمن بن إسحاق عن زياد بن زياد السوائي عن أبي جحيفة عن علي رضي الله عنه قال إن من السنة في الصلاة المكتوبة وضع الأيدي على الأيدي تحت السرة



Another athar from Ali (ra) was collected by the later Hanafi Shaykh, Ali al-Muttaqi al-Hindi (d. 975 AH) in his Kanz al-Ummal. This latter narration was collected by the Hanbali, Abu Muhammad al-Ibrahimi (d. 476 AH) and before him by the well known Imam, Ibn Shahin (d. 385 AH) of Baghdad. The narration being:

كنز العمال - للمتقي الهندي
44271- عن علي قال: ثلاثة من أخلاق الأنبياء: تعجيل الإفطار، وتأخير السحور، ووضع الأكف تحت السرة في الصلاة
(ابن شاهين وأبو محمد الإبراهيمي في كتاب الصلاة).

"Three things are from the habits of Prophethood: To hasten the breaking of the fast, to delay the Sehri (pre-fast meal) as late as possible, and to place one's right hand on top of the left hand below the navel ."

Looking at most of the printed editions of the Tamheed of Ibn Abdal Barr al-Maliki, (In one manuscript of al-Tamheed it has the ending as “al-Thunduwa” (male breast) rather than “al-Surra” (the navel) which is most likely to be as Tas-hif of a scribe, since there is a very similar narration in al-Bayhaqi’s al-Khilafiyyat that I have in manuscript format mentioning “on the navel” as reported with al-Bayhaqi’s sanad back to Uqba ibn Suhban from Imam Ali r.a.) one may see a narration from al-Athram --- Abul Walid al-Tayalisi --- Hammad ibn Salama --- Asim al-Jahdari --- Uqba ibn Suhban – who heard Imam Ali (ra) mention under the tafsir of Fasalli li-rabbika wanhar – that the hands should be placed beneath the navel. The narration in Arabic:

ذكر الأثرم قال حدثنا أبو الوليد الطيالسي قال حدثنا حماد بن سلمة عن عاصم الجحدري عن عقبة بن صهبان سمع عليا يقول في قول الله عز وجل < فصل لربك وانحر > قال وضع اليمنى على اليسرى تحت السرة


This sanad is at least Jayyid (As indicated by the late Shaykh Hamid Ibrahim Ahmed of Egypt and Muhammad Hussain al-Uqbi in their editing to al-Muhadhdhab fi Ikhtisar al-Sunan al-Kabir by al-Dhahabi, 2/13, fn, 2) and it is a very good support to the other narrations of Ali (ra) as in Sunan Abu Dawud and elsewhere via the route of Abdar Rahman ibn Ishaq al-Kufi. This narration does not seem to have been mentioned by a single Hanafi or those from other Madhhabs in their tahqiq to where the hands should be placed.

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

as salaamu alaykum,

jazakallah khayr

Hmm I sometimes place my hands on my chest and sometimes below the naval. I think it is possible that both are from the Sunnah.

[Adeel]

The hadith is in al-Mukhtarah of al-Maqdisi. Here it is:


الأحاديث المختارة للضياء المقدسي - (ج2 / ص 386)
771 أخبرنا المبارك بن أبي المعالي ببغداد أن هبة الله أخبرهم قراءة عليه أنا الحسن بن علي أنا أحمد بن جعفر ثنا عبدالله بن أحمد ثنا محمد بن سليمان الأسدي لوين ثنا يحيى بن أبي زائدة ثنا عبدالرحمن بن إسحاق عن زياد بن زيد السوائي عن أبي جحيفة عن علي قال إن من السنة في الصلاة وضع الأكف على الأكف تحت السرة ورواه أبو معاوية عن عبدالرحمن إلا أنه قال زياد بن زياد

772 أخبرنا المؤيد بن عبدالرحيم بن الأخوة وعائشة بنت معمر بن عبدالواحد بن الفاخر أن سعيد بن أبي الرجاء الصيرفي أخبرهم قراءة عليه أنا أحمد بن محمد بن أحمد بن النعمان أنا محمد بن إبراهيم بن علي بن المقرئ أنا إسحاق بن أحمد بن نافع الخزاعي أنا ابن أبي عمر هو محمد بن يحيى العدني ثنا أبو معاوية ثنا عبدالرحمن بن إسحاق عن زياد بن زياد السوائي عن أبي جحيفة عن علي رضي الله عنه قال إن من السنة في الصلاة المكتوبة وضع الأيدي على الأيدي تحت السرة

The hadith is weak. Nawawi said in Majmoo' (3/313), and also in Sharh Saheeh Muslim and elsewhere, "They (the scholars of hadeeth) agree in declaring this hadeeth weak, because it is a narration of 'Abd ar-Rahmaan ibn Ishaaq al-Waasiti, who is a da'eef (weak) narrator, as agreed upon by the Imaams of Jarh and Ta'deel.

Zayla'i said in Nasb ar-Raayah (1/314), "Bayhaqee said in al-Ma'rifah: 'Its isnaad is not firm, for it is a unique narration of 'Abd ar-Rahmaan ibn Ishaaq al-Waasiti, who is matrook (abandoned)'."



Another athar from Ali (ra) was collected by the later Hanafi Shaykh, Ali al-Muttaqi al-Hindi (d. 975 AH) in his Kanz al-Ummal. This latter narration was collected by the Hanbali, Abu Muhammad al-Ibrahimi (d. 476 AH) and before him by the well known Imam, Ibn Shahin (d. 385 AH) of Baghdad. The narration being:

كنز العمال - للمتقي الهندي
44271- عن علي قال: ثلاثة من أخلاق الأنبياء: تعجيل الإفطار، وتأخير السحور، ووضع الأكف تحت السرة في الصلاة
(ابن شاهين وأبو محمد الإبراهيمي في كتاب الصلاة).[/SIZE]

"Three things are from the habits of Prophethood: To hasten the breaking of the fast, to delay the Sehri (pre-fast meal) as late as possible, and to place one's right hand on top of the left hand below the navel ."

I only know the narration in this wording:
ثلاثة من النبوة تعجيل الإفطار وتأخير السحور ووضع اليد اليمنى على اليسرى في الصلاة
And this hadeeth has been reported by more than one of the Muhadditheen without the addition, "below the navel"! Where is the sanad of this hadith or have you borrowed it from Saqqaf who narrated it without the Sanad!


Looking at most of the printed editions of the Tamheed of Ibn Abdal Barr al-Maliki, (In one manuscript of al-Tamheed it has the ending as “al-Thunduwa” (male breast) rather than “al-Surra” (the navel) which is most likely to be as Tas-hif of a scribe, since there is a very similar narration in al-Bayhaqi’s al-Khilafiyyat that I have in manuscript format mentioning “on the navel” as reported with al-Bayhaqi’s sanad back to Uqba ibn Suhban from Imam Ali r.a.) one may see a narration from al-Athram --- Abul Walid al-Tayalisi --- Hammad ibn Salama --- Asim al-Jahdari --- Uqba ibn Suhban – who heard Imam Ali (ra) mention under the tafsir of Fasalli li-rabbika wanhar – that the hands should be placed beneath the navel. The narration in Arabic:

ذكر الأثرم قال حدثنا أبو الوليد الطيالسي قال حدثنا حماد بن سلمة عن عاصم الجحدري عن عقبة بن صهبان سمع عليا يقول في قول الله عز وجل < فصل لربك وانحر > قال وضع اليمنى على اليسرى تحت السرة


This sanad is at least Jayyid (As indicated by the late Shaykh Hamid Ibrahim Ahmed of Egypt and Muhammad Hussain al-Uqbi in their editing to al-Muhadhdhab fi Ikhtisar al-Sunan al-Kabir by al-Dhahabi, 2/13, fn, 2) and it is a very good support to the other narrations of Ali (ra) as in Sunan Abu Dawud and elsewhere via the route of Abdar Rahman ibn Ishaq al-Kufi. This narration does not seem to have been mentioned by a single Hanafi or those from other Madhhabs in their tahqiq to where the hands should be placed..

The Isnad is Mudtarib as well as the wording. Many hadith mention that wanhar means to place the hands on the chest.

And Allah knows best!

[AbuNaim]

Adeel, i see that everytime i post something you see it as a challange for a debate, my aim was not to start a debate about this issue, i just tried to show that there are more than 1 narrations from Ali (r.a.) which mentions the hands being placed below the navel.

Nawawi said in Majmoo' (3/313), and also in Sharh Saheeh Muslim and elsewhere, "They (the scholars of hadeeth) agree in declaring this hadeeth weak, because it is a narration of 'Abd ar-Rahmaan ibn Ishaaq al-Waasiti, who is a da'eef (weak) narrator, as agreed upon by the Imaams of Jarh and Ta'deel.


However,not all scholars agree and thus, commenting on this sweeping claim of Imam Nawawi, the author of Bughyah al Almaee says:

‘This is tahawwur (hastiness in decision)on the part of Nawawi as is often the case with him in such instances.'

Otherwise, Hafidh Ibn Hajar says in al Qawl al Musaddad page 35: ‘Tirmidhi has declared his (Abdul Rahman bin Ishaq’s) hadeeth to be hasan (Tirmidhi has in fact declared at least fourhadeeth to be hasan all of which contain Abdul Rahmaan bin Ishaq al Kufi. Hadeeth numbers: 741, 2052, 3462, and 3563.) (despite saying that the scholars had questioned his authenticity on account of his memory), and Hakim has classified ahadeeth transmitted through him to be saheeh. Ibn Khuzaimah has also narrated a hadeeth through him in his Saheeh although he has added that there is something in one’s heart regarding Abdul Rahmaan.’

(Bughyah al Almaee fi Takhreej al Zailaee 1/314.)

Muhaddith Dhafar Ahmad Uthmani says in his I’ilaa al Sunan,

‘No one has ever accused Abdul Rahmaan of lying, therefore he falls into the same category as Ibn Abi Layla, Ibn Lahi’ah and others. It is recorded in Tahdheeb al Tahdheeb that Bazzar said, ‘His hadeeth is not equivalent to the hadeeth of a hafidh.’ Ijli says, ‘He is weak but acceptable in hadeeth; his hadeeth can be recorded.’ These endorsements show that the hadeeth may be elevated to the rank of hasan.

(I’ilaa al Sunan 2/193.)

Beside this narration is supported by many other narrations and athaar which proves the same.

It was the most authentic view of Imam Ahmad, It was the view of Abu Hanifa, and one of the views of Imam Shafi.

And Allah knows best.

[Adeel]

Adeel, i see that everytime i post something you see it as a challange for a debate, my aim was not to start a debate about this issue, i just tried to show that there are more than 1 narrations from Ali (r.a.) which mentions the hands being placed below the navel.

Then you should have not presented something as weak as this.


However,not all scholars agree and thus, commenting on this sweeping claim of Imam Nawawi, the author of Bughyah al Almaee says:

‘This is tahawwur (hastiness in decision)on the part of Nawawi as is often the case with him in such instances.'

Otherwise, Hafidh Ibn Hajar says in al Qawl al Musaddad page 35: ‘Tirmidhi has declared his (Abdul Rahman bin Ishaq’s) hadeeth to be hasan (Tirmidhi has in fact declared at least fourhadeeth to be hasan all of which contain Abdul Rahmaan bin Ishaq al Kufi. Hadeeth numbers: 741, 2052, 3462, and 3563.) (despite saying that the scholars had questioned his authenticity on account of his memory), and Hakim has classified ahadeeth transmitted through him to be saheeh. Ibn Khuzaimah has also narrated a hadeeth through him in his Saheeh although he has added that there is something in one’s heart regarding Abdul Rahmaan.’

(Bughyah al Almaee fi Takhreej al Zailaee 1/314.)



al-Haafidh az-Zayla’i said in ‘Nasb ar-Raayah’ after mentioning this hadeeth, ‘ibn Qattaan said, "Abd ar-Rahmaan bin Ishaaq, he is ibn al-Harb Abu Shaybah al-Waasitee and ibn Hanbal and Abu Haatim said about him, "rejected in hadeeth." And ibn Ma’een said, "he is nothing." And Bukhaaree said, "there is a problem in him." And al-Bayhaqee said in ‘al-Ma’rifah’, "it’s isnaad is not authentic, And ar-Rahmaan bin Ishaaq al-Waasitee is alone in reporting it and he is abandoned." And an-Nawawee said in ‘al-Khulaasa’ and ‘Sharh Saheeh Muslim’, "and it is a hadeeth which is weak by agreement for Abd ar-Rahmaan bin Ishaaq is weak by agreement."’

Shaikh ibn al-Hammaam said in ‘at-Tahreer’, ‘when al-Bukhaaree says about someone, "there is a problem in him" then his hadeeth are not depended upon or used for support, or given any consideration.’

So your blame on Nawawi is due to your ignorance and due to your methodology to discredit anyone due to his madhab and on the other hand you were using same Nawawi to prove your position. Why this self contradiction?! Beside this Imam Nawawi has agreed with the major huffadh and the we all know Tirmidhi is muttasahil in his Ta'dil so when he has contradicted with the balanced Imams then his Ta'dil is of no value. And the same is true for Hakim. And by the way did Tirmidhi declared the Hadith Hasan or the Isnad of the hadith to be hasan?!

On the top of it, it has Idrtiraab in it and what futher points to its weakness is that contrary to it has been narrated on the authority of Hazrat Ali.


Muhaddith Dhafar Ahmad Uthmani says in his I’ilaa al Sunan,

‘No one has ever accused Abdul Rahmaan of lying, therefore he falls into the same category as Ibn Abi Layla, Ibn Lahi’ah and others. It is recorded in Tahdheeb al Tahdheeb that Bazzar said, ‘His hadeeth is not equivalent to the hadeeth of a hafidh.’ Ijli says, ‘He is weak but acceptable in hadeeth; his hadeeth can be recorded.’ These endorsements show that the hadeeth may be elevated to the rank of hasan.

(I’ilaa al Sunan 2/193.)

Despite the level of Jara'h on him and despite the other problems in hadith I wonder how he said this and then people and by the way who Dhafar Ahmad Usmani is?


It was the most authentic view of Imam Ahmad, It was the view of Abu Hanifa, and one of the views of Imam Shafi.

And Allah knows best

F9. And what about the addition you borrowed from Saqqaf I guess?!

[AbuNaim]

Ibn al Qayyim declared the hadith of Ali (r.a.) to be Sahih so did probably his teacher Ibn Taymiyyah.

The other narration of Ali (r.a.) i gave is collected by the later Hanafi Shaykh, Ali al-Muttaqi al-Hindi (d. 975 AH) in his Kanz al-Ummal. This latter narration was collected by the Hanbali, Abu Muhammad al-Ibrahimi (d. 476 AH) and before him by the well known Imam, Ibn Shahin (d. 385 AH) of Baghdad. The narration being:

كنز العمال - للمتقي الهندي
44271- عن علي قال: ثلاثة من أخلاق الأنبياء: تعجيل الإفطار، وتأخير السحور، ووضع الأكف تحت السرة في الصلاة
(ابن شاهين وأبو محمد الإبراهيمي في كتاب الصلاة).

"Three things are from the habits of Prophethood: To hasten the breaking of the fast, to delay the Sehri (pre-fast meal) as late as possible, and to place one's right hand on top of the left hand below the navel ."

The reference for this hadith from Ali (ra) is ascribed to Kitab al-Khushu fil Salah by Ibn Manda - in al-Suyuti's Jami al-Ahadith, also known as Jam al Jawami. The sanad should be in Ibn Mandah's work, you may refer to that.


A other variant of this is a narration from Anas ibn Malik (r.a.);

Anas reports that there are three aspects from the character of Nubuwwa [Prophethood]: to open fast early, to delay the suhur [pre-dawn meal], and to position the right hand over the left one beneath the navel while in salat.

Ibn Hazm al-Zahiri used this as his main proof to place the hands under the navel in his al-Muhalla. He didn't give a Sanad but he must have accepted the variant narration from Anas (ra) as per what he mentioned in the muqaddima to al-Muhalla. The style of his presentation is an indication that he believes it is Sahih and this is why later Hanafi's like Imam al-Ayni in his Sharh on Bukhari: Umdatul Qari utilized it as proof. Anyway, Anas' narration is supported by his own student’s fatwa, and he is Abu Mijlaz;

Hajjaj ibn al-Hassan relates, “Either I heard Abu Mijlaz saying or I inquired from him, ‘How should one position his hands [during prayer]?’ He replied, ‘He should place the inner portion of his right hand upon the back of the left one beneath the navel.” (Musannaf Ibn Abi Shayba 1:390)



The narration from Abu Mijlaz is Sahih, and he said to a student that one should place the hands under the navel - this is agreed upon to be present in the Musannaf of ibn Abi Shaiba. This Tabi'i met and narrated from a number of Sahaba like: Anas ibn Malik, Mu'awiya, Ibn Abbas and others."

The authors of Muheet al Burhani and Majm’a al Bahrain have narrated a marf’u hadetteh from Ibn Abbas (r.a.) with the words

“It is part of sunnah to place the right hand upon the left below the navel in salah.''

There another athar by a great Tabi; Ibrahim Nakhai;

Ibrahim al Nakhai reports that Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wa sallam would rest one of his hands on the other in salâh, humbling himself before Allâh. Imam Muhammad (the narrator of this hadeeth) says, 'He would place the palm of his right hand on his left wrist below the navel. The wrist would thus be in the middle of the palm.'

(Imam Muhammad in his Kitab al Aathaar 120.)


Ibrahim al Nakhai also says, 'He (the individual performing the prayer) should place his right hand on his left, below the navel.'

(Ibn Abi Shaibah 3939 and Imam Muhammad in his Kitab al Aathaar 121. Imam Nimawi says that its isnad is hasan)

Ahadeeth of placing hands upon the chest.

Following is an analysis of the ahadeeth often quoted for placing the hands upon the chest.

1. Sayyiduna Wail bin Hujr (ra) says, 'I prayed with the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) and he placed his right hand over his left on his chest.(Ibn Khuzaimah, 479)

Imam Nimawi says, 'It's isnad is questionable and the additional wording 'on his chest' is inauthentic and not established.'

This hadeeth has been reported by Muammal bin Ismaeel from Sufyan al Thawri from Aasim bin Kulaib from Wail bin Hujr (ra) -However it is only Muammal who reports these additional words from Sufyan al Thawri. Sufyan's other student, Abdullah bin al Waleed who also narrates this hadeeth from him does not include these words in his narration as recorded in Imam Ahmad's Musnad. (Ahmad 18392)

The other narrators who report the hadeeth together with Sufyan al Thawri from Aasim bin Kulaib have also not included these words in their narrations. Observe the following list of narrators who have al reported the same hadeeth from Aasim bin Kulaib but none of then have included the additional words reported by Muammal bin Ismaeel

• Sh'ubah, Abdul Wahid, and Zubair bin Muawiyah as in Imam Ahmad's Musnad. (Ahmad 18398, 18371 & 18397)

• Zaidah as in Imam Ahmad's Musnad, Darimi, Abu Dawood. Nasai and Baihaqi (Ahmad 18391, Darimi 1357, Abu Dawood 726, Nasai 889 and Baihaqi 2325)

• Bishr bin al Mufaddhal as in Ibn Majah, Abu Dawood and Nasai (Ibn Majah 810, Abu Dawood 726 & 957, and Nasai 1265)

• Abdullah bin Idrees as in Ibn Majah (Ibn Majah 810)

• Salam bin Saleem as in Abu Dawood Tayalisi's Musnad (Abu Dawood Tayalisi 1020)

There are many other chains for this hadeeth, however, none contain this extra wording. Thus, it is clear that this is Muammal bin Ismaeel's own erroneous addition to the hadeeth. Ibn al Qayyim al Jawziyyah also says in I'laam al Muwaqqieen, 'No one has said upon the chest apart from Muammal bin Ismaeel.’ (I'ilaam al Muwaqqieen 2/361) Therefore, as Imam Nimawi has concluded in his al Ta'leeq al Hasan, this hadeeth with the additional wording of' upon his chest' is extremely weak.

It is an accepted principle of hadeeth that if a certain authentic and reliable narrator contradicts other equally authentic or more reliable 'arrators in his wording of a hadeeth then his narration will be declared shaadh and will not be accepted. If this is the case with authentic narrators, then an irregular addition of the words 'upon the chest' cannot be accepted from a narrator who, although declared acceptable by some, errs excessively and is weak of memory like Muammal bin Ismaeel. Study the following observations of the scholars of Jarh and T'adeel about Muammal bin Ismaeel:

Abu Hatim says, 'He is sadooq, firm in sunnah, but one of many mistakes
Imam Bukhari says, 'Muammal is munkar al hadeeth (People who view Imam Bukhari as the ultimate authority in matters of Hadeeth should note his following statement: 'It is not permissible to narrate from anyone whom I have labelled munkar al hadeeth [Mizan al I'itidal. 1/119]

Dhahabi says in al Kashif, 'He is sadooq, firm in sunnah, but one of many mistakes. It was also said that he buried his books and narrated by heart and thus erred. '

Ibn Sa'd says, 'He is thiqah, though one of many mistakes.'

Yakub bin Sufyan says, 'Muammal Abu Abdul Rahman is a great sunni shaikh. I heard Sulaiman bin Harb praise him. Our shaikhs would advise us to take his hadeeth, only that his hadeeth are not like the hadeeth of his companions. At times it is obligatory upon the people of knowledge to distance themselves from his narrations as he narrates munkar ahadeeth from even his authentic teachers. This is worse for had he narrated these munkar ahadeeth from weak authorities we would have excused him.'
Saji says, 'He errs excessively. He is sadooq, but one of many mistakes. He has errors that would take too long to be mentioned.'

Muhammad bin Nasr al Marwazi says, 'If Muammal alone relates a certain narration then it becomes obligatory to pause and research the hadeeth as he had a bad memory and erred excessively (See Tahdheeb al Tahdheeb)
Hafidh Ibn Hajar has made it clear in his Fath al Bari that there is dh 'af (weakness) in Muammal bin Ismaeel's narrations from Sufyan (Fath al Bari, 9/297). The above hadeeth has this very chain of narration.

We must also bear in mind that Sayyiduna Wail Ibn Hujr(ra), the very companion who narrates this hadeeth, was a resident of Kufa, and the practice of the people of Kufa was to fasten their hands below the navel. There is nothing to suggest that he contravened this practice. Sufyan al Thawri, from whom Muammal narrates this hadeeth, is himself of the view that the hands should be placed below the navel (Ibn Qudamah in al Mughni 2/23, and others as quoted by the author of Bughyah al Almaee 1/316)

Furthermore, there is another hadeeth narrated by Sayyiduna Wail (ra) himself (quoted above) which says that he saw the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) fasten his hands below the navel.

2. Sayyiduna Hulb (ra) relates, 'I saw the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) turn from both his right and left and I also saw him place this upon his chest.' Yahya (one of the narrators) described this as being the right hand upon the left above the wrist joint. 292

The above hadeeth contains the words 'upon his chest'. This extra wording is not firmly established or confirmed, because of all the narrators who report this hadeeth from Simak, only one reports this extra wording.
Observe the following narrations of the same hadeeth without the extra wording of 'upon his chest'.

• Abu al Ahwas reports from Simak bin Harb from Qabeesah bin Hulb from his father that the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) would lead us in prayer and would clasp his left hand with his right.293

• Shareek reports from Simak from Qabeesah bin Hulb from his father who says (towards the end of a longer hadeeth), 'I saw him place one of his hands on the other and I also saw him turn once towards his right and once towards his left.'294
Wakee reports from Sufyan from Simak bin Harb from Qabeesah bin Hulb from his father who says, 'I saw the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) place his right hand upon his left in prayer and I also saw him turn away from both his right and left.'295

• Daruqutni narrates from Abdul Rahman bin Mahdi and Wakee', from Sufyan from Simak bin Harb from Qabeesah bin Hulb from his father who says, 'I saw the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) place his right hand upon his left in prayer.' (Daruqutni 1087)

The above narrations all clearly show that the wording 'upon his chest' is an unreliable addition on the part of one of the reporters and therefore this particular narration is shaadh.

Imam Nimawi adds in his al T'aleeq al Hasan (1/145):

'I have a suspicion that the wording of this hadeeth has mistakenly been changed by a writer. The correct words would appear to be "Yadhau hadhihi ala hadhihi", i.e., "he would place this hand upon this hand", and not "hadhihi ala sadrihi", i.e., "this hand upon his chest". Only this wording would be in agreement with the narrators own interpretation of the hadeeth as is stated in the narration "Yahya described this as being the right hand upon the left above the wrist joint". This would also tally with all the other narrations of this hadeeth that do not contain the wording "upon the chest", and would also explain why the following authors have not included this narration in their comprehensive books: Haithami in his Majm'a al Zawaid, Suyuti in his Jam' al Jawami, and Ali al Muttaqi in his Kanz alUmmal. And Allah knows best.'

The author of Awn al M'abud also admits that Yahya's commentary does not fit the wording of the hadeeth.

3. Taawoos narrates that The Messenger of Allah [salallahu alayhi wa sallam] used to place his right hand over his left, and then clasp them firmly on his chest during prayer. [Abu Dawood 759]

Imam Nimawi has declared this hadeeth to be weak. 299

This hadith is mursal and its isnad contains Sulaiman bin Musa who has been classified as weak by some scholars. Bukhari claims that he has munkar narrations. Nasai says that he is not strong in Hadeeth. Hafidh says in al Taqreeb, “He is a sadooq and faqeeh. There is some (leen) “weakness” in his hadeeth.” Furthermore, Abu Dawood has recorded the same narration in his Maraseel but with a different wording. Instead of “he clasped them firmly on his chest” that narration reads “he entwined the fingers of his hands on his chest. [Maraseel Abi Dawood, p85]



This hadeeth is also mursal and although mursal narrations are not readily accepted by others, the Hanafi Ulama consider them acceptable as evidence. Therefore, as some have pointed out, this narration is binding on us. However, we say that the saheeh hadith of Sayyiduna Wail bin Hujr [radiyallahu anhu] narrated by Ibn Abi Shaibah takes precedence and the ahadeeth of Sayyidina Ali (ra) and Siyyiduna Abu Hurairah (ra) are more acceptable to us because they explicitly mention the sunnah being below the navel. Tawoos’s words “he would” cannot match the words of the companions “it is sunnah”. Also as mentioned earlier the very wording of Tawoos’s hadeeth is in dispute. Moreover, Tawoos’s mursal narration is opposed to the mursal narrations of Ibrahim al Nakhai and Abu Mijlaz.



Imam Nimawi writes in Aathaar al Sunan that there are other ahadeeth about placing the hands on the chest but they are all weak. Of these he mentions the following:


4. Sayyiduna Wail ibn Hujr (ra) narrates, “I was present with the Prophet [salallahu alahyi wasalam]. He rose, went towards the masjid and entered the mihraab. He raised his hands with takbeer and then placed his right hand over his left upon his chest.” [Bayhaqi 2335]


Imam Nimawi says,

“Its isnad is extremely weak. Dhahabi has said about Muhammad bin Hujr in Mizaan that he has munkar narrations. Bukhari has said that there is a question about him. [Bukhari often uses this expression to desribe the weakness of a narrator]. Ibn al Turkmani says, “The mother of Abdul Jabbar is the mother of Yahya. I do no know her name or her details (grade of reliability).” Saeed bin Abdul Jabbar is also weak. Dhahabi quotes Nasai in his Mizaan as saying that Saeed bin Abdul Jabbar is not strong. Hafidh ibn Hajar says in Taqreeb, “Saeed bin Abdul Jabbar al Hadhrami al Kufi is weak.” [al T’aleeq al Hasan 1/145]


5. Aqabah bin Sahban reports that Sayyiduna Ali (ra) commenting on the verse [So pray unto thy Lord, and sacrifice] explained, that this means to place the right hand upon the middle of the left upon the chest. [Bayhaqi 2337]


Ibn al Turkmani says that both the sanad and the text of this narration are mudhtarib. [al Jawhar al Naqiyy 2/46]


6. Abu al Jawz reports from Sayyiduna ibn Abbas (ra) that he said of the verse [So pray unto thy Lord, and sacrifice]: This means placing the right hand upon the left in prayer, on the chest. [See fn. 305]

Imam Nimawi has declared the isnad of this narration to be weak.


He says, “Rawh bin al Musayyab is matrook [abandoned]. Ibn Hibban says that Rawh Ibn al Musayyab narrates and ascribes fabricated traditions even to reliable authorities. It is not permissible to narrate from him. Ibn Adiyy says that his narrations are not preserved.” [al T’aleeq al Hasan 1/146]


The sanad also contains a third narrator, Amr bin Malik al Nakri. Ibn al Turkmani writes of him in al Jawhar al Naqiyy saying,


“Ibn Adiyy has said that Amr al Nakri is munkar al Hadeeth even when narrating from reliable authorities. He plagiarised narration and Abu Ya’la al Mawsili declared him dhaeef.” [al Jawhar al Naqiyy 2/47]

The correct Tafseer of this verse:

Ibn Jareer al Tabari, quoting the tafseer of the ulama which he states is the most correct, writes:

“The meaning of this verse is that “Oh Porophet of Allah! Make all your prayers sincere for the sake of your Lord, whithout any share for other false gods and deities, and also make all your sacrifices solely for the sake of your Lord without any share for other idols.” [Ibn Jareer al Tabari in his Tafseer 12/724]


7. Ibn Jarir al Dhabbiyy reports from his father who said, “I saw Ali (ra) clasping his left hand with his right on the wrist, above the navel.” [Abu Dawood 757]


Imam Nimawi writes in Aathar al Sunan that the additional wording “above the navel” is not authentic and established. The same hadeeth has been narrated in al Safinah al Jaraidiyyah on the authority of Muslim bin Ibrahim, one of Bukhari’s shaykhs, in al Musannaf of Abu Bakr bin Abi Shaibah, [Ibn Abi Shaibah 3940 & 8722] and in Bukhari [in the chapters relating to actions in salah] in muallaq, abridged form. However, none of these narrations contain the extra wording “above the navel”. The only narrator to include this additional wording in the hadeeth is Abu Badr Shuja bin al Walid narrating from Abu Talut Abdus Salam bin Abi Hazim. Shuja’ has been considered reliable by some, but Abu Hatim says of him as quoted by Hafidh Ibn Hajar in his introduction [to Fath al Bari], and by Dhahabi in his Mizan that “He is weak in hadeeth; a shaykh who is not strong and therefore, his word cannot be acceptable in evidence, although he has saheeh ahadeeth from Muhammad bin Amr bin Alqamah.” Hafidh Ibn Hajar also says in his Taqreeb, “He is pious, sudooq and he has mistakes.” [al T’aleeq al Hasan 1/146]

Furthermore, above the navel does not mean “upon the chest.''

FOOTNOTES:

footnote (fn) no. 292: Ahmad 21460. Allamah Hashim Sindhi says in Dirham al Surrah p. 113 that both Simak bin Harb and Qabeesah (two of the narrators of this hadeeth) have been disparaged by some of the ulama of jarh and t'adeel.

fn. 293: Ibn Abi Shaibah 3934, Ahmad 21467, Ibn Majah 809 and Tirmidhi 252. Imam Tirmidhi adds that it is a hasan hadeeth.

fn. 294: Ahmad 21464.

fn. 295: Ahmad2146I & 21475. Daruqutni 1087. al T'aleeq al Hasan 1/145

fn. 299: al T’aleeq al Hasan 1/145. Allamah Hashim Sindhi says in Dirham al Surrah p27 that the authenticity of two of its narrators has been disputed: Sulaiman bin Musa and Haitham bin Humaid.

fn. 305: Bayhaqi 2339. Allamah Hashim says in Dirham al Surrah p28, “The hadeeth is weak on two accounts: because it is muqati’ and also because three of its narrators, Amr, Yahya and Rawh are weak. So this should be considered. Furthermore, the authors of Muheet al Burhani and Majm’a al Bahrain have narrated a marf’u hadetteh from Ibn Abbas [radiyallahu anhu] with the words “It is part of sunnah to place the right hand upon the left below the navel in salah.”


Adeel may i ask you which proofs Nawawi used for the view of his own madhab which is to fold the hands above navel and below the chest as he says it in his Sharh al-Muhadhdhab?

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

as salaamu alaykum,

I still find it odd that women place hands below naval also.

[AbuNaim]

as salaamu alaykum,

I still find it odd that women place hands below naval also.

There is unanimously ijmaa that a woman will place her hands on the chest (bossom)

See:

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showpost.php?p=116303&postcount=9

[Adeel]

Ibn al Qayyim declared the hadith of Ali (r.a.) to be Sahih so did probably his teacher Ibn Taymiyyah.

So what! Were they the Imams of Jara'h and Ta'dil! I am really tired of the double standards of you people!

The other narration of Ali (r.a.) i gave is collected by the later Hanafi Shaykh, Ali al-Muttaqi al-Hindi (d. 975 AH) in his Kanz al-Ummal. This latter narration was collected by the Hanbali, Abu Muhammad al-Ibrahimi (d. 476 AH) and before him by the well known Imam, Ibn Shahin (d. 385 AH) of Baghdad. The narration being:

كنز العمال - للمتقي الهندي
44271- عن علي قال: ثلاثة من أخلاق الأنبياء: تعجيل الإفطار، وتأخير السحور، ووضع الأكف تحت السرة في الصلاة
(ابن شاهين وأبو محمد الإبراهيمي في كتاب الصلاة).

"Three things are from the habits of Prophethood: To hasten the breaking of the fast, to delay the Sehri (pre-fast meal) as late as possible, and to place one's right hand on top of the left hand below the navel ."

The reference for this hadith from Ali (ra) is ascribed to Kitab al-Khushu fil Salah by Ibn Manda - in al-Suyuti's Jami al-Ahadith, also known as Jam al Jawami. The sanad should be in Ibn Mandah's work, you may refer to that.

Ash-Shaikh Haashim as-Sindee said in his letter, ‘Diraahim as-Surra’, ‘and from them is what az-Zaahidee mentioned in his ‘Sharh al-Qudooree’, and ibn Ameer al-Haaj and ibn Najeem mentioned in ‘al-Bahr ar-Raa’iq’, that it is reported from the Prophet (SAW), "three are from the habit of the Messengers: hastening the iftaar, delaying the suhoor, and placing the right hand upon the left below the navel in prayer." He said: I have not come across the sanad to this hadeeth except that az-Zaahidee added that it is reported by Alee bin Abu Taalib (RA) from the Prophet (SAW). But ibn Ameer al-Haaj and ibn Najeem said, "that the reporters of hadeeth do not know the wording, ‘below the navel’ from a marfoo or mawqoof narration."

Is this sufficient for you now?!

A other variant of this is a narration from Anas ibn Malik (r.a.);

Anas reports that there are three aspects from the character of Nubuwwa [Prophethood]: to open fast early, to delay the suhur [pre-dawn meal], and to position the right hand over the left one beneath the navel while in salat.[/B]

Ibn Hazm al-Zahiri used this as his main proof to place the hands under the navel in his al-Muhalla. He didn't give a Sanad but he must have accepted the variant narration from Anas (ra) as per what he mentioned in the muqaddima to al-Muhalla. The style of his presentation is an indication that he believes it is Sahih and this is why later Hanafi's like Imam al-Ayni in his Sharh on Bukhari: Umdatul Qari utilized it as proof. Anyway, Anas' narration is supported by his own student’s fatwa, and he is Abu Mijlaz;

Mubaarakfhooree(RH) said "The author of ‘ad-Durra’ said, "And as for the hadeeth of Anas, "from the manners of the Prophethood is placing the right hand upon the left below the navel" about which al-Aini said that it is reported by ibn Hazm, then it’s sanad is not known so as to look into it’s narrators and see if they are acceptable or not. And this hadeeth has been reported by more than one of the Muhadditheen without the addition, "below the navel", and an addition (to the wording of a hadeeth) is only acceptable from known and reliable narrators.’


Hajjaj ibn al-Hassan relates, “Either I heard Abu Mijlaz saying or I inquired from him, ‘How should one position his hands [during prayer]?’ He replied, ‘He should place the inner portion of his right hand upon the back of the left one beneath the navel.” (Musannaf Ibn Abi Shayba 1:390)

The narration from Abu Mijlaz is Sahih, and he said to a student that one should place the hands under the navel - this is agreed upon to be present in the Musannaf of ibn Abi Shaiba. This Tabi'i met and narrated from a number of Sahaba like: Anas ibn Malik, Mu'awiya, Ibn Abbas and others."

And here is the double standard when you reject the narration of Tawoos(RH) regarding folding hands on the chest and here you do exactly the opposite. Abu Majliz was a Tab'i and he did not said that it was the action of the companion or the Prophet(peace be upon him). As far as Ibn Abbas is concerned this his position hands to be foldd in Sala'h can be debated. As far as Anas bin Malik is concerned have you forgotten what the Kawthari in whose praise you brought narrations from Mua'llimi I don't know from where discredited Anas(RA) narrations?!

The authors of Muheet al Burhani and Majm’a al Bahrain have narrated a marf’u hadetteh from Ibn Abbas (r.a.) with the words

“It is part of sunnah to place the right hand upon the left below the navel in salah.''

If you are referring to the same narration that is the tafseer of "Wanhar" then I already posted regarding it and if not then please can you provide me with the sanad as I have never seen anyone using this narration in his proofs.

There another athar by a great Tabi; Ibrahim Nakhai;

Ibrahim al Nakhai reports that Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wa sallam would rest one of his hands on the other in salâh, humbling himself before Allâh. Imam Muhammad (the narrator of this hadeeth) says, 'He would place the palm of his right hand on his left wrist below the navel. The wrist would thus be in the middle of the palm.'

(Imam Muhammad in his Kitab al Aathaar 120.)
Ibrahim al Nakhai also says, 'He (the individual performing the prayer) should place his right hand on his left, below the navel.'

(Ibn Abi Shaibah 3939 and Imam Muhammad in his Kitab al Aathaar 121. Imam Nimawi says that its isnad is hasan)

the hadith is Mursal and therefore weak.


Adeel may i ask you which proofs Nawawi used for the view of his own madhab which is to fold the hands above navel and below the chest as he says it in his Sharh al-Muhadhdhab?

Lol! The answer to your erroneous claim and all this what you have pasted regarding hands on the chest has already been answered a lot of times and you will find this on the net! The contrary narration of Hazrat Ali(to the narration you use) proves Nawawi position. It is very apparent to me how you follow your whims and desires when you brought what you brought for nawawi and on the other thread you were reluctant to use your same kawtharite methodology. Remember on "moving the finger in tashahud" thread!

And Allah knows best!

[Adeel]

There is unanimously ijmaa that a woman will place her hands on the chest (bossom)

See:

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showpost.php?p=116303&postcount=9


Ohh really! I never knew this.

[Adeel]

Lastly, I know this issue is not like black and white.