Ibn Qudama's rebuttal of Ash'aris [Archive]

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Abuz Zubair

29th March 2005, 04:19 AM

as-Salaamu 'Alaikum,

I just finished reading a book by the great Hanbali Imam Ibn Qudamah al-Maqdisi (d. 620AH) where he describes his debate with the Ash'aris of his time, over the issue of Quran being the literal word of Allah.

The Sunnis from the four schools of Fiqh regard the Quran to be the literal word of Allah, including every single Surah it contains, begining with al-Fatiha and ending with al-Nas, along with every letter.

Ash'aris on the other hand, believe that Allah's Speech is without voice or letters, and that His Speech is indivisible and eternal, like Allah's knowledge. On this basis, they say that the words and letters that our Quran is composed of are created and not the words of Allah. In other words, the speech that exists in the Mushaf is created, as the Mu'tazila's believe. As for who actually spoke those words and letters, some of them say it was Jibril, while others say that the words are of Muhammad SallAllahu 'alaihi wa-sallam.

The following are some of the quotes from Ibn Qudama's rebuttal I really enjoyed:

"Some of our [Hanbali] companions often ask us about the debate that took place between me and some of the heretics (i.e. Ash'aris)"
Ash'aris claim that the Speech of Allah - the Quran - is one whole entity which is indivisible, for anything eternal must be indivisible, as they claim. Ibn Qudamah responds to this saying, that their belief implies, that the Torah, the Bible and the Quran are all the same, and the one who memorises a verse has memorised the whole Quran, and that Allah's prohibitions are the same as what he permits, etc.
Ash'aris say that if Allah speaks with sound and letters, it implies that Allah has a tongue, a throat and lungs, since this is the only way one may speak. Ibn Qudamah says, the stones and trees of Makkah would say Salam to the Prophet - SallAllahu 'alaihi wasallam without any of that, and likewise ones hands will bear witness against him on the day of judgement, without the need of any tongue or throat etc. Moreover, by the same token, they should also deny that Allah is all hearing and seeing, as one cannot hear except through air waves hitting the air-drums, nor can one see except through lights hitting the retina.
Ibn Qudamah says that Ash'aris belief implies that for one to recite the Quran in his Salah, in fact renders his Salah null and void, because the Quran is actually the speech of Jibril, as they claim.
He says: "There is no dispute amongst all the Muslims that anyone who rejects a verse from the Quran, or a word, which is agreed upon, or even a letter which is agreed upon, is a Kafir... Whereas al-Ash'ari rejects the entire Quran and says: none of that is the Quran, rather it is the speech of Jibril"
He says: "What is amazing is that they are not bold enough to manifest their belief in public, nor do they explicitly state it except when they are alone. Even if they were the rulers, or governors of countries, and you were to attribute this belief to them, they would detest it and condemn it, and become obstinate. They would only pretend to honour the Quran respect the Mushaf, and stand up upon seeing it, whereas when they are alone they say: There is nothing in it but paper and ink, what else is there in it? And this is from the actions of Zanadiqah”
One of them said to Ibn Qudamah: I affirm that this Mushaf is actually the Quran, but it is not the eternal Quran, to which Ibn Qudamah replied: ‘So, do we have two Qurans?! … Some of our [Hanbali] companions said: ‘You (the Ash’aris) are the rulers and the governors over Islamic countries, so what prevents you from making your belief manifest to the common folk?
He said: ‘We do not know of a sect from the heretics who hide their beliefs, and who are not bold enough to manifest them, except the Zanadiqah and the Ash’aris.’
He said: ‘His belief (i.e. al-Ash’ari’s) is similar to that of the Mu’tazilah without doubt, except that al-Ash’ari wants to deceive. So he states his belief which appears to be agreeing with the beliefs of the people of truth. He then gives an explanation to his belief with a Mu’tazili twist.
He says: ‘The reality of the Ash’ari doctrine is that there is no God in the heavens, nor is there a Quran on this earth, and nor is Muhammad a messenger of God’. Ibn Fuwarrak was killed by the great ruler Ibn Subuktakin for claiming that the Prophet SallAllahu ‘alaihi wa-sallam was only a messenger when he was alive, and he isn’t a messenger anymore after his death.
He says: ‘What is amazing is that their leader (i.e. Abul-Hasan al-Ash’ari) who established their beliefs was a man not known for his religion or piety, nor was he known for any of the Sacred sciences. In fact, he belongs to no science except the science of blameworthy Kalam. All the while they acknowledge that he spent 40 years adhering to Mu’tazili doctrine, and then pretended to have retracted from it, however, nothing could be seen from him after his repentance except this Bid’ah.’I guess, these highlights from this great Hanbali Imam prove that the Sunnis have been traditionally in opposition to the Ash’aris and regarded them to be heretics; as it also proves that Imam Ibn Qudamah, the great Hanbali scholar was a staunch enemy of the Ash’aris.

This also refutes the claim of some pseudo-Hanbalis who claim that Ibn Qudamah was lenient or accommodating towards the Ash’aris, since he used to share ‘Aqidah books with Salah al-Din al-Ayyubi – apparently.

As a final note, not everyone who attaches the title ‘al-Hanbali’ to his name or Kunya or founds some ‘Hanbali Text Society’ becomes a Hanbali. So beware of impostors!

29th March 2005, 04:17 PM

As-salamu 'alaykum,

Here I am!******* Anyways, have you heard what the so-called 'Hanbali Text Society' (Jahmi anti-salafi one guy sitting behind a keyboard society) say about salafis?******* I warn you beforehand; its pretty stupid:

The Salafiyyah as an organisation has many beliefs, but we are mainly interested in those that are in clear contravention of what Muslim Orthodoxy have believed in the major areas that border on salvation and other crucial doctrines:

a. Salafiyyah does not share the belief with Muslim Orthodoxy in that Allah is above matter and not resembling His Creation in any manner. Allah is implicitly held (and in some cases explicitly) by Salafi theologians to be an exalted man sitting on a large chair. His Attributes are all literal according to the language and how we know and understand them. Therefore to the Salafis, the Lord sits, stands climbs up and climbs down, etc and is the same as a human being.

b. The Prophet Muhammad is not primordial, but only a mere man and the last prophet. Muhammad ibn `Abdul Wahhaab denied most of his prophetic miracles.

c. Prophets are not completely infallible (this tenet is held implicitly) and in fact the Prophet Muhammad was led astray at one point by Shaitan (this tenet is expressed explicitly).

d. Denial of the miracles of the saints and sometimes of some of the prophets.

e. Salvation is by deeds and the believer enters the Paradise because of his deeds and not due to Grace and the Mercy of Allah.

f. Following the Four Orthodox schools is blind following at the least and at the most is major shirk that will eject the perpetrator out of Islam and into apostasy.

g. Salafi theologians believe themselves able to extract laws and make rulings directly from the Qur’an and the Sunna, placing themselves on the same level as the Four Great Imaams.

h. Swearing by other than Allah is major shirk that will eject the perpetrator out of Islam and into apostasy (the Orthodox state that while it is a sin, it is not enough to lead to apostasy).

i. Visiting the graves to seek the barakah (bounty) of the saints is shirk that can eject one out of Islam and into apostasy.

j. Making du`aa to Allah using the barakah of the prophets or saints is major shirk that will eject the perpetrator out of Islam and into apostasy.

k. Calling on the angels for help when one is in distress is major shirk that will eject the perpetrator out of Islam and into apostasy (in fact, this action was done by the Mother of Ismaa`il, Hajar and there are many other instances).

l. Using the Qu’ran or the Names of Allah to heal people or as a pendant is major shirk that will eject the perpetrator out of Islam and into apostasy. The government of Saudi Arabia, which is run by the Salafi cult, has executed perpetrators of this ‘crime.’

m. Most Muslims are idol worshippers and have gone back into the Pre-Islamic Age of Ignorance before the Prophet Muhammad came to preach unto them.

n. The Prophet Muhammad cannot be seen in a dream by Muslims now and the ahaadith about his being seen in a dream in his actual form can only be interpreted to mean his companions who knew how he appeared.

o. There is only a small faction of the Muslims that is entering the Paradise.

p. Salvation is by actions and not by faith alone.

q. Some elements of the Salafiyyah organisation have actually went to the extreme of proclaiming Muhammad ibn `Abdul Wahhaab as a prophet. This statement was insinuated by Muhammad ibn `Abdul Wahhaab himself one more than two occasions and recorded of his followers on three other occasions.

r. Those that disagree with them are either astray or kuffar.

s. The prophets, saints and martyrs are dead in their graves and do not hear.

t. Although having a form of godliness, Salafiyyah rejects by implication many things of the unseen. An example would be the espousing of the belief in angels, but when any report comes of a sighting of them, they say that angels cannot be seen and that it must have been a demon.

u. Whoever will not label him or herself specifically with the title ‘Salafi’ will fall under divine judgement.

v. Salafiyyah has an emphasis on the negative aspects of the law, for example, what not to do, what to abstain from, what to avoid. However, the positive laws Salafis are very ignorant of and many are not aware of the peace and joy that can be found in Islam. It is for this reason that many Salafis have either returned to their former religion, if they converted, or abandoned Salafism and became born again Christians.

Abuz Zubair

29th March 2005, 07:55 PM

As-Salaamu ‘Alaikum

Here I am!******* Anyways, have you heard what the so-called 'Hanbali Text Society' (Jahmi anti-salafi one guy sitting behind a keyboard society) say about salafis?******* I warn you beforehand; its pretty stupid:
Misconceptions are of two main types; i) misconceptions that are based on misunderstanding of arguments and statements of one’s opponent, and ii) misconceptions based on pure lies. The first type is where one is required to clarify the misconceptions in paragraphs, where as the second type requires no comment – except ‘A BIG LIE’. Unfortunately, Abu Ja’far ‘al-Hanbali’s’ misconceptions are based on pure lies which require no academic discussion.

However, there are two important points to acknowledge here:
1) The deep and blind-hatred hatred these people have for the Sunnis, such that they resort to fabricating lies – knowingly.
2)******* Their Sufism, instead of improving them spiritually, corrupts them beyond limit, such that lying and fabricating becomes an integral part of their religion. In fact, what is their lying in comparison to grave-worshipping?

The following are my comments in brief:
The Salafiyyah as an organisation has many beliefs, but we are mainly interested in those that are in clear contravention of what Muslim Orthodoxy have believed in the major areas that border on salvation and other crucial doctrines: 

Salafiyah is no organisation with a body, membership or a leader. Salafiyah is none other than Hanbaliyah upon the creed of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, his direct students and companions and all those who adhered to the creed of Imam Ahmad from the scholars of the four schools.

a. Salafiyyah does not share the belief with Muslim Orthodoxy in that Allah is above matter and not resembling His Creation in any manner.
Not only that Hanbalis believe that Allah is above matter – they believe that Allah is above the entire creation which Ash’ari heretics deny.
Allah is implicitly held (and in some cases explicitly) by Salafi theologians to be an exalted man sitting on a large chair.
A BIG LIE. Hanbalis believe in what Allah says in His Book: ‘The Most Merciful rose over the throne’, which the Ash’ari heretics deny, because their lord is paralysed and cannot move, like an idol.
His Attributes are all literal according to the language and how we know and understand them.
This is because the Abu Hanifa, Malik, al-Shafi’i and Ahmad held the same approach, that we believe in the texts as they have been narrated to us, without negating or altering their meaning. This was also the position of al-Ash’ari with respect to Allah’s hands, eyes.
Therefore to the Salafis, the Lord sits, stands climbs up and climbs down, etc and is the same as a human being.
There is no narration from the Prophet – SallAllahu ‘alaihi wa-sallam – alleging that Allah sits (except very weak or fabricated), for if there was we would believe it, because we believe in the Messenger of Allah. Unlike the Ash’aris who implicitly accuse the Prophet and His companions of not understanding Allah, for the lord of the Ash’aris cannot move, where as the Lord of Muhammad – SallAllahu ‘alaihi wa-sallam – rose over the throne and descends to the lowest heaven at the last third of the night to forgive the sinners. This is while maintaining that Allah’s attributes are not like that of His creation’s, for there is none like unto Him.
b. The Prophet Muhammad is not primordial, but only a mere man and the last prophet. Muhammad ibn `Abdul Wahhaab denied most of his prophetic miracles.
None of the Sunni scholars ever believed that the Prophet – SallAllahu ‘alaihi wasallam was primordial. There was no difference between the Prophet – SallAllahu ‘alaihi wa-sallam and the rest of the Prophets. They were all born and created at the of their conception. The Prophet did not precede the other Prophet’s in creation, rather He is the last Prophet as agreed upon by all the Sunnis.

As for Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhab denying the miracles of the Prophet – again – A BIG LIE.

c. Prophets are not completely infallible (this tenet is held implicitly) and in fact the Prophet Muhammad was led astray at one point by Shaitan (this tenet is expressed explicitly).
Majority hold the belief that the Prophets are infallible from committing major sins but not minor.
As for Prophet being let astray by Shaitan – again – A BIG LIE.
d. Denial of the miracles of the saints and sometimes of some of the prophets.
A BIG LIE.
e. Salvation is by deeds and the believer enters the Paradise because of his deeds and not due to Grace and the Mercy of Allah.
A believer enters paradise due to His deeds, for Allah says enter the Paradise due to the deeds you used to perform, as well as Allah’s mercy, and to deny that is gross misguidance.
f. Following the Four Orthodox schools is blind following at the least and at the most is major shirk that will eject the perpetrator out of Islam and into apostasy.
A BIG LIE. Sh Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab was a great Hanbali Faqih himself. When the ‘Wahhabis’ entered Makkah, they obliged the people to follow one of the four madhabs, and no fifth one.
g. Salafi theologians believe themselves able to extract laws and make rulings directly from the Qur’an and the Sunna, placing themselves on the same level as the Four Great Imaams.
A BIG LIE. The Hanbalis, as do majority of the scholars from other Madhabs, believe that the one who is not a Mujtahid in any issue, must make Taqlid of a Mufti – irrespective of which Madhab he is from, and the one who is a Mujtahid, even if one Fiqhi issue, is obliged to make Ijtihad in that issue.
h. Swearing by other than Allah is major shirk that will eject the perpetrator out of Islam and into apostasy (the Orthodox state that while it is a sin, it is not enough to lead to apostasy).
A BIG LIE.
i. Visiting the graves to seek the barakah (bounty) of the saints is shirk that can eject one out of Islam and into apostasy.
Again, another lie coming from a compulsive liar. To seek barakah at the graves isn’t in and of itself Shirk, however it leads to Shirk, which is why the Salaf prohibited it. Once a man came to Imam Ahmad and begin rubbing his hands over him for Barakah, for which the Imam rebuked him and said: Where did you get this from?! Hence, it is the Madhab of the Hanbalis that one should not touch the grave of the Prophet – SallAllahu ‘alaihi wa-sallam – while visiting him. This is what makes it amazing that this so-called Hanbali does not even know what the Madhab opinion is concerning a bulk of issues which he regards to be unorthodox. Do we want more proof for Abu Ja’far’s ignorance of the Hanbali Madhab?
j. Making du`aa to Allah using the barakah of the prophets or saints is major shirk that will eject the perpetrator out of Islam and into apostasy.
A BIG LIE. So long as one is making Dua directly to Allah, he cannot be accused of Shirk. If one makes tawassul through the Prophet or the righteous, then the famous opinion amongst the Hanbalis in our time, that it is a Bid’ah, while we acknowledge that this is a disputed issue, and one cannot be condemned for making tawassul through the Prophet, as Sh Muhammad ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhab himself stated.
k. Calling on the angels for help when one is in distress is major shirk that will eject the perpetrator out of Islam and into apostasy (in fact, this action was done by the Mother of Ismaa`il, Hajar and there are many other instances).
A BIG LIE. Calling upon other than Allah in a situation where only Allah’s help can be sought, is major Shirk. This ‘Hanbali’ needs to read up on the section of apostasy in Furu’ by Ibn Muflih al-Hanbali, where he states that anyone who calls upon other than Allah, or takes intermediaries between him and Allah is a Mushrik by the agreement of four schools.
l. Using the Qu’ran or the Names of Allah to heal people or as a pendant is major shirk that will eject the perpetrator out of Islam and into apostasy. The government of Saudi Arabia, which is run by the Salafi cult, has executed perpetrators of this ‘crime.’
A BIG LIE. In fact, on contrary to what Abu Ja’far states, treating people with Islamic Ruqyah is prevalent in Saudi, as this practise was sanctioned by the Prophet – SallAllahu ‘alaihi wa-sallam. What is disliked, however, is for one to ask others to do Ruqyah for him because it negates the concept of Tawakkul; as is the case with using medicine for treatment. This is just a finer Usuli point of dispute discussed in the books of Hanbalis.
A BIG LIE. Saudi gov. has never killed anyone for performing Ruqyah.
m. Most Muslims are idol worshippers and have gone back into the Pre-Islamic Age of Ignorance before the Prophet Muhammad came to preach unto them.
A BIG LIE. Most Muslims worship Allah alone and not graves. Abu Ja’far should educate himself on statistics by asking his spiritual guide, Hisham Qabbani – the Zindiq – as to who represent the 80% of the mosques in the US alone, ‘Wahhabis’ or the grave-worshippers?
n. The Prophet Muhammad cannot be seen in a dream by Muslims now and the ahaadith about his being seen in a dream in his actual form can only be interpreted to mean his companions who knew how he appeared.
A BIG LIE. The Prophet – SallAllahu ‘alaihi wa-sallam can be seen in dreams. However, scholars differ with regards to the one who says the Prophet, did he actually see the Prophet or not? For if he doesn’t know what the Prophet looks like, how could he know that he did see the Prophet? While others say otherwise. It is a matter of valid difference of opinion across the four schools of Fiqh.
o. There is only a small faction of the Muslims that is entering the Paradise.
Indeed, as the Prophet – SallAllahu ‘alaihi wa-sallam – said: out of every thousand, only one will enter Paradise; and indeed he said that the Ummah will divide into 73 sects, all in the fire of hell except one. However, those of the Muslims who will enter the fire of Hell, will eventually enter paradise after having tasted the punishment they deserve for their sins.
p. Salvation is by actions and not by faith alone.
Indeed, as Imam Ahmad was asked about a people who believe in all the tenets of faith, and believe in the obligation of Salah, Zakah,******* Sawm and Hajj, yet they refuse to perform all these actions; he said: They are Kuffar, for Allah said: ‘They were not ordered except to worship Allah, being sincere in their religion and monotheist.’
q. Some elements of the Salafiyyah organisation have actually went to the extreme of proclaiming Muhammad ibn `Abdul Wahhaab as a prophet. This statement was insinuated by Muhammad ibn `Abdul Wahhaab himself one more than two occasions and recorded of his followers on three other occasions.
A BIG LIE. In fact, I am now wondering as to who lies more, Abu Ja’far or Iblis?
r. Those that disagree with them are either astray or kuffar.
A BIG LIE. In fact, this is the belief of certain Ash’aris who say that all those who differ with them in creedal issues are Kuffar, including the Maturidis. The Hanbalis, as do the scholars from the rest of the four schools, only make Takfir on those whom Allah and His Messenger made takfir of.
s. The prophets, saints and martyrs are dead in their graves and do not hear.
There is a difference of opinion whether or not the dead can hear, and this difference is respected amongst the Hanbalis.
t. Although having a form of godliness, Salafiyyah rejects by implication many things of the unseen. An example would be the espousing of the belief in angels, but when any report comes of a sighting of them, they say that angels cannot be seen and that it must have been a demon.
A BIG LIE. The Hanbalis do not deny that angels can be seen. In fact, Ibn Taymiyah says that when he was in prison, a Jinn who loved him went into the court of the ruler and said to him that he is Ibn Taymiyah. When his companions asked him, ‘why could it not be an angel trying to help you?’ Ibn Taymiyah replied: ‘because angels do not lie. As for the jinns, then they do lie, which is why he said to the ruler ‘I am ibn taymiyah’, knowing that he is lying.’ Ibn Taymiyah, and the Hanbalis in general only condemned Tawaghit – like Abu Ja’far – who often claim that they called upon some angel instead of Allah, and that the angel came and helped them. What they don’t realise is that the Shaitan first led them astray by making them call upon other than Allah, and then lead them even further astray by appearing to them in person, making them think that ‘Shirk works!’. Who is more miskin then the one who is far from his Lord, that he resorts to calling on angels for Help. We seek refuge in our Lord from Shirk.
u. Whoever will not label him or herself specifically with the title ‘Salafi’ will fall under divine judgement.
A BIG LIE.
v. Salafiyyah has an emphasis on the negative aspects of the law, for example, what not to do, what to abstain from, what to avoid. However, the positive laws Salafis are very ignorant of and many are not aware of the peace and joy that can be found in Islam. It is for this reason that many Salafis have either returned to their former religion, if they converted, or abandoned Salafism and became born again Christians.
Firstly, the comment that Hanbalis only focus on prohibitions is not true. Their Fiqh books are full of that which is prohibited and that which is permissible. As for the ‘peace and joy’ this deluded miskin is claiming for himself, then let him look into the books of his predecessors from the Ash’aris, why did they repent from Ash’ari doctrine and embrace the Hanbali creed? How about Fakhr al-Razi, who spent most of his life writing books, supporting open kufr like magic and astrology, who complains about his utter confusion and doubts in his beliefs? How about al-Juwaini repenting before his death? How about al-Ghazzali himself who said: Those who doubt their faith the most at the time of their death are the people of Kalam.
One wonders, what ‘peace and joy’ a person experiences by stripping completely naked in front of a crowd that has gathered for Jumuah? What ‘joy’ are you talking about, O Aba Ja’far, in beating your servant with your 5m long sexual organ? Or watching your ‘murid’ fulfilling his sexual desires with wife, or touching the private parts of your Sheikh, which the Tabaqat al-Sufiyah by al-Nabahani is full of?
As for your complaint about some of those attributed to Salafis apostatizing, well, so did the companions of the Prophet – Sallahu ‘Alaihi wasallam. So what does that make Islam for you? At least those apostates, get to taste Tawhid even if for a short period, unlike those who leave Roman Catholicism for ‘Islamic Catholicism’, those masakin simply leave Shirk for Shirk, and misguidance for another misguidance.
‘If you feel no shame’, said the Prophet, O Aba Ja’far, ‘then do as you wish’.
May Allah keep our feet firm upon the Quran and the Sunnah, and the creed of the Imam of Ummah – Ahmad ibn Hanbal.

30th March 2005, 02:16 AM

As-salamu 'alaykum,

These people claim to follow ibn Qudama; I wonder what they say about his book ''Ithbaat Sifat al-'Uluww''.******* The problem with these people is that their 'reserach' into such issues inevitably ends up quoting only from the sayings of the khalaf- like al-Juwayni.******* Take 'Khalq af'aal ul-'Ibaad' for example; what reply can they give to*******it except to make takfir of Imam al-Bukhari, his students and his shuyukh?******* I think they should have more guts (like as-Saqqaf) who was at least brave/stupid enough to make takfir of the ash'ari qadi al-Baqilani (for believing in 'uluww).******* 

Ibn Taymiyya- the shaykh of Islam- summarises the whole situation in the most concise and perfect way, when he stated:

"The mushabihhah (eg. the Karramiyya) worship an idol and the mu'attila*******(eg. ash'ariyya, pseudo-Hanabila, jahmiyya and mu'tazila)*******worship nothing"*******

31st March 2005, 03:18 PM

Just to add some points to what al-akh Abu Zubair said:

a. The Jahmi 'text' society (who have not published a single title) do not believe that Allah is above the heaven, what they mean is that "Allah is nowhere".******* So these atheists should look at the books of the Hanabila like Ithbaat Sifat al-'Uluww and 'Ayn al-Athar which refute them.

d. We do not deny the miracles of the Prophets or awliya- see al-Waasitiyyah (which Abu Ja'd al-Jahmi claims to have read) of ibn Taymiyya.******* However, if by 'miracles of the awliya' you mean the khurafaat with which the sufis fill their isnad-less books, then there are grounds for denying these.******* Take for example, the story of the sufi who raped a donkey or the one who saved a ship 'with his penis', or even the one who found the ark of Nuh on the mountain which supposedly encompasses the Earth (the existance of this Mount Qaf is based on Isra'iliyaat).

h. One brother found this: Shaykh Muhammad Ibn Saalih Al Uthaymeen-Raheemulllah said in Al Qawl Al Mufeed in the explanation of the [Chapter, the Saying of Allah, the Most High: "So do not set up rivals to Allah while you know"];

والحلف بغير الله شرك أكبر إن أعتقد أن المحلوف به مساو لله تعالى في التعظيم والعظمة ، وإلا ، فهو شرك أصغر

Rough translation,

"Swearing by other than Allah is major shirk, if it is believed that the one sworn by is equal to Allah, the Most High in honour/veneration and majesty/exaltedness otherwise it is minor shirk"

Even funnier than these claims is the 'deeds of the salafis' section.*******

31st March 2005, 03:34 PM

HA HA HA: I laughed so hard at abu Ja'far al-'Akroot that I almost fell off my chair. Look at this section- it makes the last look truthful it is that bad:

1. Projecting a form or holiness and godliness, but by practice and faith DENYING THE MAJESTY AND POWER THEREIN [??!!??]

2. Rebellion against the Ottoman khilaafa and aiding in its’ collapse. [As has been said already mushrik, ibn 'Abdul-Wahhab existed 200 yrs before the collapse of the Ottoman 'khilafa'. 'khilafa'? Does this Jahmi have a brain? More on this in a seperate article...]

3. Over the past 35 years there have been three attempts to remove the body of the Prophet Muhammad from Masjid an-Nabawi in Madina where he lies in state, as it is viewed as major shirk that ejects from Islam and leads to apostasy to have it lying in state there. [he should prove the first charge, the second is a load of rubbish]

4. Proclaiming themselves to be the only legitimate Islamic State on Earth. [dumd-dumb, bring your proof]

5. Signing into law a ruling that to speak against the government or leaders of the Saudi Arabian government is to speak against Allah and thus commit major kufr, which ejects one out of Islam and into apostasy. [A BIG LIE]

6. Those who have made amulets with verses from the Qur’an in them have been jailed as well as given capital punishment in Saudi Arabia for their ‘apostasy.’ [ACTUALLY YOU MUSHRIK, BIN BAZ AND THE KIBAR SAID THAT IT WAS AN ISSUE OF MINOR IKHTILAF- NOT SHIRK- AND SAID THAT OME OF THE SALAF SAW IT AS PERMISSIBLE- WHEREAS OTHERS DID NOT]

7. Gatherings for Remembrance of Allah on a large scale in the Sacred Masjid in Makkah and other public venues have been banned but large scale celebrations of the foundation of the Salafiyyah government in Saudi Arabia in 1925 have gone unabated. [DUMB DUMB, BIN BAZ AND THE OTHER SHUYUKH DO NOT AGREE WITH ANY OF THESE CELEBRATIONS]

8. There have been an uncalculated number of executions done without trial as well as witnesses. [BRING YOUR PROOF LIAR]

9. By Saudi law, the women may not marry out of Saudi stock, but in 1988, Mr. Ibn Baz, leader of the Salafi sect and government mufti, passed a ruling allowing the MEN but not women to take their pick of non-Saudi spouses. Many returned with ‘California dolls,’ much to the consternation of Salafi authorities. [DUMB LIAR]

10. The continued murder of both Sunni and Shi`a in Pakistan as well as the destruction of their masaajid, as Salafiyyah teaches that neither of the two are Muslims anyway. [??!!??!!]

11. Targeted attacks on populations with the deliberate aim of specifically killing non-combatants in large numbers, such as those recent attacks in Bali, France, the devastation of synagogues in Tunisia and Morocco and Turkey as well as whole scale murder of civilians in Algeria. [!!??!!??]

12. Infanticide in Algeria as well as funding a market of sex slaves, those mostly being Muslim women that did not subscribe to their rigorous brand of Islam. [IF YOU WANT SEX SLAVES THEN LOOK AT YOUR SUFI SHUYUKH, WHO BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION IN THEIR BOOKS OF 'KARAMAAT' RAPE DONKEYS AND YOUNG BOYS]

13. The consistent murder of prisoners of war in southern Sudan as well as Chad.

14. Interference in the affairs Afghanistan, precipitating the collapse of its’ central government, breaking more than three treaties with the host government as well as contributing to the trade in heroin and the sexual exploitation of the Afghani people. [WHAT A LOAD OF RUBBISH]

15. Murder of doctors, aid workers and news reporters who desire to shed light on the affairs of Salafiyyah and its’ tactics in different countries throughout the world. [??!!??]

16. Those accused of prostitution have been executed (there is no evidence for this in Islamic Law at all). [??!!??]

17. Those ‘guilty of fornication’ have received capital punishment. [YES......?]

18. Continuing in the sex slave industry with women exported from as far abroad as the Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan and India. [??!!??]

19. Denying the advance of science by stating that study of space and the stars is a waste of time and against Islamic Law. [DUMBHEAD, BIN BAAZ AND IBN 'UTHAYMIN ENCOURAGED THESE STUDIES]

20. Refusal to admit that the Earth is round [LIE- HEAR BIN BAZ ON FATWA ONLINE- WHEN I ABU MUSHRIK TO PROVE THIS ALLEGATION HE STAYED SILENT]

21. Refusal to allow women to drive due to the ruling that they are ‘mentally lacking.’ [LOAD OF RUBBISH- 1. SOME SCHOLARS DISAGREE ON THIS ISSUE 2. THOSE THAT BAN THEM FROM DRIVING DO NOT DO SO ON THIS JUSTIFICATION]

22. Murdering and slaughtering the Jews in Palestine who are actually campaigning for the rights of Muslims in Palestine such as Neturei Karta and others. [???!!??!!??!??]

23. Circulating books around the world that about with errors in creed, fiqh, salvation and other crucial subjects. [??!!??!!??!!?? THIS MUSHRIK HAD SERIOUS DIFFICULTIES WHEN I TOLD HIM ABOUT THE EXISTANCE OF KHALQ AF'AAL UL-'IBAAD]

24. Editing and tampering with the hadith collections, deleting ahaadith and then releasing abridged and expunged versions of the finished product. [.........]

25. Funding embarrassing translations and commentaries of the Qur’an, which aid in pushing Muslims away from the Qur’an with numerous brackets, page breaks and parenthesis which make it nearly impossible to know when the Salafis speak and when Allah is speaking (perhaps it is linked with a belief that Salafism is of the Divine).

Madarijas-Salikeen

3rd June 2008, 05:39 PM

as-salaamu alaykum,

jazakallah khayr brother abuz zubayr. I never looked at the issue like this. I never realized how deep the asharis dwelled into the issue of the Speech of Allah. It is indeed stripping the attribute from Allah and denying the Quran. Its as if they believe the Mushaf contains the 'meaning' of Allah's actual speech. May Allaah save us from astray beliefs. ameen

Salahadeen

3rd June 2008, 09:43 PM

macb

3rd June 2008, 10:41 PM

This is their dception Salahudeen.

What they mean by the Qur'an being the speech of Allaah is that it is a manifestation of the eternal inner speech of Allaah, like the inner thoughts of the mind.. Which is in reality no different than the attribute of knowledge when you think about it. It is not literally the speech of Allaah that He spoke with letters and sound in the Arabic language. Rather it is an expression of the eternal speech of Allaah and is therefore created. To them Allaah doesn't speak with sound that can be heard. It seems the god they worship is mute.

Michael

Salahadeen

3rd June 2008, 10:47 PM

Nu7

4th June 2008, 01:20 AM

Honestly, I don't understand this debate at all. Can someone please explain it to me in dumbo terms?

Every time I ask an Ashari/Maturidi whose Speech is the Quran, they say it is Allah's. Am I missing something? Please explain.

Shaykh Abu Ammaar Yasir Qadhi: The Concept of the Kalaam of Allaah (http://www.islaam.net/main/display.php?id=286&category=30)

This should explain what the Ash'ari/Maturidi view is on the Kalaam of Allah, 'Azza wa Jal.