What is the proper understanding of the quotes here?

[terrorthreat]

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4030

[Abuz Zubair]

InshaaAllah, I hope bro Sharif Abu Ja'far will have some time to deal with the quotes in depth. (if not, then I will deal with them when I get time)</p>

But very briefly:</p>

1) The early Ash'aris, like Abul-hasan al-Ash'ari, al-Baqillani and al-Baihaqi affirmed attributes such as eyes, hands, face for Allah literally, and they refuted the Mu'tazila's ta'wilat of these attributes in very strong terms. Refer to al-Ibana of Ash'ari, al-Insaf of al-Baqillani or Asma wal-Sifat of al-Baihaqi. It is only the latter Ash'aris who regarded affirming hands and eyes of Allah tantamount to kufr :)</p>

2) Aidin has never meant 'hands' in the Arabic language, and to translate the Quran as such as a crime against Allah's book, and these freestyle Ash'aris should be stopped from translating the Quran without the knowledge of the Arabic language. Aidin simply means power and strength in the language of the Arabs. Yad, on the other hand means a hand.</p>

3) The rest of the quotes contain no tawilat at all, they simply affirm the literally as well as the supposed meaning. (such as Allah's hand is over their hands, to affirm Hands for Allah literally, and to believe in the obivious meaning that Allah's help is with them - where did they negate the hands of Allah literally?)</p>

4) Quotes from Ibn Kathir can be responded to by what we said in point 3. What further consolidates our opinion about Ibn Kathir that his creed was no different to his beloved teacher's Sheikh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, is that he mentioned attributes like Allah will come on the Day of Judgement to judge. He affirmed this attribute literally, even though the Ash'aris from Abul-Hasan al-Ash'ari to al-Kawthari are in agreement in negating the attributes that infer that Allah moves, or that any change takes place in him, such as becoming angry, pleased, etc.</p>

5) Let's get to teh crux of the matter. Ash'aris do not negate Allah's attributes for the sake of negation. They have certain principles which they call decisive intellectual proofs that are strong enough to override Quranic text. Such as their theory about Allah's existance, and their method of intellectual dedcution in proving their theory. So if these Ash'aris are in fact on the Ash'ari creed by way of conviction, and not Taqlid (which is forbidden in their doctrine), then let them discuss with us the theory of kalam :) For example, ask them about Hulul al-Hawadith with regards to Allah, what is their ruling on the one who believs in it? What if we tell them that their major figurehead, al-Fakhr al-Razi believed in what they regard to be Kufr ?:)</p>

wasalam</p>

[terrorthreat]

This sunniforum seems like a hotbed for asharis they basically copy and paste stuff from there on other sites to build there 'arguements'

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

As-sallamu 'alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu


correct me if I'm wrong but how I have understood the issue of ta'weel is that it is permissible where the language requires it, however it is wrong when it entails negating the sifat of ALLAH subhanahu wa Ta'ala.

So If the asha'irah say they do ta'weel we say ok do ta'weel of a verse (As long as it is permitted) so they may say that ALLAH Ta'ala mentions His Hand is over their hand to mean streangth, no problem, but what about the other ayaat which talk about ALLAH Ta'ala affirming for himself 'Yad'? Do they do ta'weel then? And this is the problem becasue they will do ta'weel (or tafweed-mufawiddah) and negate the attribute of 'YAD' OF ALLAH Ta'ala...

wa ALLAHU A'LAM


Isa

[terrorthreat]

More from sunniforum:</p>

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2889</p>

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

As-sallamu 'alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu


Lets say for arguments sake that this risalah is sahih, then so what? Are they claiming that Imaam adh-dhahabi(Rh) wa an asha'ri?

We have seen people like Imaam Bukhari(rh) say that Imaam Abu Hanifah(Rh) a murj'i, and who does not know tha maqaam of Imaam Abu Hanifah(Rh)?

These people are just jahil, they say Shaykul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah(rh) played with the sahihayn, and he said such and such about the salaf and other pious muslims etc, what needs to be done is to bring forth quotes of Ibn Taymiyyah upon which these claims are made and if they are substanciated then we ask ALLAH Ta'ala to forgive him and never follow him in that, if not then we ask ALLAH Ta'ala to forgive the accusers and allow them to show respect to Ibn Taymiyyah(Rh) and others innsha'ALLAH

[asharee_salafi]

Assalaamulekum wr wb.</p>

So Abu zubair when you say:</p>

''3) The rest of the quotes contain no tawilat at all, they simply affirm the literally as well as the supposed meaning. (such as Allah's hand is over their hands, to affirm Hands for Allah literally, and to believe in the obivious meaning that Allah's help is with them - where did they negate the hands of Allah literally?)</p>

[/quote] ''</p>

You mean that there can be ta'weel over certain verses in the Quran where Allahs attributes are mentioned as long as the actual attribute is not negated. So when the yahood say , as said in the Quran, that Allahs hand is tied, and Allah replied that his hands our outstretched then one can say that Allah not only has a HAND but is*******GENEROUS too?</p>

(some brother told me about the above, i.e that we can do the ta weel if allowed as long as the attribute isnt negated)</p>



May Allah reward you and protect you. Ameen</p>