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Anonymous

18th April 2005, 01:04 AM

http://www.islamicawakening.com/viewarticle.php?articleID=1217 (/viewarticle.php?articleID=1217) 



As a 'western feminist' I felt compelled to respond to 'Woman's Reflection on Leading Prayer'. You state that the western feminist is 'forced to find value in relation to man'. I can see some validity in this point. Women and men do need to critically examine the goals that they strive towards. However, I disagree with your conclusion that people should therefore accept rigid gender roles. I would argue that women's traditional role is not valued in many societies around the world, and instead of trying to fit women into roles and structures designed by and for men, we need to make institutions, such as work places, more suited to women.

In your reflection you argue that women are copying men when they cut their hair short and join the army. I think this is highly presumptuous. Has it occurred to you that perhaps some women like short hair and want a military career, in the same way that some men choose to grow their hair long and choose traditionally female careers like nursing. For me this is the important issue; people making choices about what is best for them and their families - free from restrictive and artificial gender roles.

I would also emphasis that your argument is flawed even if it is accepted that God "dignifies both men and women in their distinctiveness", and that "God has given no special privilege to the one who leads". You state that "for 1400 years there has been a consensus of 'the scholars' that men are to lead prayer". The fact that you make no mention of God or the Qur'an stipulating that women cannot lead prayer, indicates that this is not a matter of God's will, but instead a very human convention of cultural, rather than divine descent. I would also pose the question, who are these scholars? Is it merely a coincidence that they are overwhelming men? If women's restriction from leading prayer cannot be clearly traced to God or reason, it is only defended by tradition.

The point that those that lead prayer are not spiritually superior may be true, but I would like to turn your attention to the situation here on earth. The imam may not be closer to God, but he does enjoy a position of power and influence in the community, making decisions that, more than likely affect women. If a woman wants to have more influence in her community and has the ability to do so, why should she not fulfil this role?

If mothers were truly valued within Islam they would have more influence and power within their families and communities. As I am sure you are aware, being a mother is not only about changing nappies and preparing food, but also about participating in making long-term decisions that will impact on their children and future generations.

Your comparison between women not being able to lead Friday prayers and men not being able to give birth, is ridiculous given that one is due to a man-made tradition, while the other is a biological difference.

You end by saying "if given a choice between worldly leadership and heaven at my feet - I choose heaven". Why is it that men are able to have both worldy leadership and heaven? Your statement suggests that for women the choice is mutually exclusive. Is this a view that comes from God and expressed in the Qur'an, or is it another construction made by 'scholars'?

For me feminism is about respecting everyone's choices regardless of traditional gender roles. This includes women and men who choose to lead and women and men who choose to stay at home with their kids. Therefore I respect your choice to choose heaven over worldly leadership, but also Amina Wadud choice to lead the Jumuah prayer. Do you think it is impossible for these different roles for women to co-exist within Islam?

The calibre of your argument demonstrates how important it is for women to be educated and to become more acquainted with reasoned argument - these are not male attributes. You can be both rational and compassionate, in fact I would argue that reason and compassion complement each other. I would implore you to demonstrate some 'feminine compassion' towards Amina Wadud and allow her to make her own choices. If you disapprove of women leading prayer, exercise your choice not to attend, and respect those who choose otherwise.

Response to Yasmin Mogahed’s "Woman's Reflection on Leading Prayer"

Abu Ilyas

19th April 2005, 01:32 AM

As a Muslim I also felt compelled to respond to************** Jp's response to the aforementioned article. Obviously, I'm not the author of the article., nor a feminist nor a woman, but this issue should concern everyone due to it's importance. I must be very quick, so excuse the typos in advance.

*******What do you mean by 'women's traditional role ' ? Do you mean*******Her role as a mother and a carer of her children? As a wife and home maker?*******Her biological nature and exclusive ability to bear and nurse children obviously*******to some extent*******specifies**************her role in life, which quite logically would then result in a difference with the roles of men.******* To argue that such 'roles and structures'*******are designed 'by and for men' is not correct because men did not decide that women should be the ones to carry babies in their wombs for 9 months , to be able to breastfeed them thereafter for a certain length of time, this was something God determined. The traditional roles of women developed due to this divinely determined role, it was natural you could say for them to develop in this way,*******and there was no need for men to create such roles.

<span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Now, don't get me wrong. Islam does not regard womens role in life to simply bear children and look after the home, as noble an endeavour *******as that would be.*******The main purpose of life for both men and women in Islam is worshipping God alone.

<span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">*******I guess what you term gender roles are present in Islam but the general principle In Islamic law is that 'Women are the twin halves of men' and as such all rulings which apply to men also apply to women unless and except there is a direct specific evidence to suggest otherwise.

<span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">You say that womens traditional roles are not valued in many societies. This is probably true in many cases, but why is that? No doubt, Islam does value highly the 'traditional' role of women, for example the higher distinction accorded to mothers rather than fathers in the family unit, or the encouragement of paradise being at your mothers feet e.t.c e.t.c . I would suggest the lack of value people in these times have for 'traditional women' is more to do with the materialist culture in which most of us live which does not respect or value anyone or anything unless it has money. This is a sad reflection on todays world. A world where religous values have been eroded. The revival of Islam will help beat this mentality, Insha'allah. The solution to the low status of these womens roles is not for them to ape men in the workplace (though I'm not saying women are forbidden to work) but to educate society , the answer is more Islam.

<span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">I find your bold assertion that*******-'The fact that you make no mention of God or the Qur'an stipulating that women cannot lead prayer, indicates that this is not a matter of God's will, but instead a very human convention of cultural, rather than divine descent.' - a bit suprising, are you an expert on Islamic law to so suppose? It takes some expertise to understand how Islamic laws are formulated and we should not be so hasty.

<span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Please refer to the following articles : 

<span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">http://www.as-sahwah.com/viewarticle.php?articleID=1211&

<span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">http://www.as-sahwah.com/viewarticle.php?articleID=1212&

<span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">You say *******: 'I would also pose the question, who are these scholars? Is it merely a coincidence that they are overwhelming men? If women's restriction from leading prayer cannot be clearly traced to God or reason, it is only defended by tradition.'

<span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">It is not a coincidence just historic reality. Just like practically every other society in the last 1500 years or beyond the overwhelming majority of Scholars have been men.However, in my mind the Islamic civilisation is unique in the relatively large amount of female scholarship it produced from the earliest times. Yet, male and female scholarship alike all rejected the idea of women leading men in prayers, 1500 years of******* consensus in a society which allowed the laymen (and lay women) full access to scriptual sources unlike early christianity wherein only the priests could read the bible,in such an open society it would have been very difficult to Impose such a consensus on the point of women not being able to lead prayer unless it really was so! Classical books of Islamic law are very divergent and have numerous differing opinions in them , see for example the discussion amongst jurists on if women can be Judges, yet despite this pluralism in Islamic thought through the ages, the women leading in congregational prayers men was overwhelmingly rejected and practically unheard of as a valid point of view.

<span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">I ask you isnt it a coincidence that the only call in 1500 years of Islamic history for women to lead men in prayer comes not from traditional Muslim centres of learning but from 'Muslims' in a country in the west whoose think tanks are openly out to redefine and reinterpret and change Islam?! Isnt it a coincidence they come from a small modernist fringe which was born and nurtured on the west?

<span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">Anyway, whats the big deal about women becoming Imaams? The position of an Aalim for example is a much higer level of respect and prestige and this can be achieved by anyone , man or woman,no one can deny someones scholarship if they really do posses knowledge *******there has never been any difference of opinion that women can become Scholars. If someone can contribute something on female Islamic scholarshop here it would be a very Interesting read. 

<span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA"><span lang="EN-US" style="FONT-SIZE: 7pt; FONT-FAMILY: Verdana; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-fareast-language: EN-US; mso-bidi-language: AR-SA">There are many point i would like to have taken up, but am short of time at the moment.

Anonymous

25th April 2005, 01:18 PM

In the name of Allah, I seek refuge in Allah from Shaytan the accursed !!!

Pls. permit me to quickly respond to JP's response to the article "Woman's Reflection on Leading Prayer".

To start with, i'm delighted that from the out-set, JP's has identified herself as a 'western feminist', so her comment should not be strange to any discerning muslim, afterall, Allah has*******made us to know in the Holy Quran,*******that the "munafiqs [hypocrites] and the musheerikun [unbelievers]" are always out to undermine Islam. In light of this i wouldn't have responded to her write-up if not for the sake of fellow muslims and some other sincere non-muslims who might be innocently mis-led by JP. 

Now, i will only*******cite*******tradition of the Holy Prophet [saw] of Islam and the history of Islam when the Holy Prophet [saw] was alive,*******to back up Yasmin Mogahed's comment and show the fallacy in the JP's response.
Now, it is significant to note that the Holy Prophet [saw]*******advised women on two prominent things as regards prayer, viz,

1] He advised them to lower their voice to the barest*******minimum while in prayer.

2] He also encouraged women to always pray in their husband's house. Infact, he buttressed this point by saying the prayer******* a woman*******oserves in her husband's house is more rewarding than any offered in the mosque. This is to discourage women coming out to pray in the open and*******infact this explains the reason why in some countries and mosques there is no provision for female worshipper.

Considering, the fore-going therefore, one wonders on what premise or what justification has the "so-called*******islamic Professor Wadud" to lead a mixed gender jumuaat service. 

Infact, it*******is instructive to note that through-out the life of the Holy Prophet he never allowed or permit a woman to lead prayer nor lead an expenditure or even serve as an Amir [i.e leader] of any delegation. So, why this new*******"realisation" *******that women can also lead a mixed-gender !

Well, it's gladdening that the Holy Prophet [saw]has clearly stated the repercussion of bid'ia [i.e inovation] in religion. So those cheap champions of women emancipatin and liberation in the religious field should beware !!!

May Allah continue to guide all the sincere muslims that truly seek Allah's pleasure aright. And may He in His infinite mercy bring back the likes of Professor Amina Wadud to the right path [ihdin siratal mustakeem], amin.

-abdurrahman ayuba

Anonymous

27th April 2005, 06:35 PM

Regarding your quote:

2] "He also encouraged women to always pray in their husband's house. Infact, he buttressed this point by saying the prayer******* a woman*******oserves in her husband's house is more rewarding than any offered in the mosque. This is to discourage women coming out to pray in the open and*******infact this explains the reason why in some countries and mosques there is no provision for female worshipper."

Whilst i m no scholar, and do not for once doubt the Prophetic instruction for women to pray at home, the Prophet SAW also encouraged female attendance at the mosque, to paraphrase, this can be seen by the Eid khutbas and Eid prayers in which menstruating women were recommended to listen to the khutba. 

I do not for once agree with Amina's mistaken act of rewriting divine laws to suit modern feminist thoughts but neither do i agree with totally prohibiting women from mosques. This kind of barbaric patriarchial chauvinistic thinking creates a twisted western feminist agenda.

In todays society, where Islamic belief and practice is fading away, it is even more so needed, infact imperative*******for us women to be educated in our deen and to attend the mosques to learn and worship.******* We are not chattels and playthings,*******simply created for man's*******pleasure. Rather Allah has elevated our status and we share in reward and punishment equally.*******I'm so grateful that Our Lord has decreed for us these roles and that we arent left to the evil workings of man made laws.

After all we are also Allah's slaves and our hearts are in constant need of Our Lord's perfect remembrance. Dont forget brothers... Islam is not for MANkind but for HUMANkind and that includes us women too, incase you forgot!

Anonymous

29th April 2005, 06:40 PM

Assalam Alaikum,

As a devout Muslim woman I dont agree with JP or with Yasmin Mogaheds article as neither portrays the true Islamic stance and I guess such an article as Yasmin Mogaheds insults the intelligence of the website owners who saw it as worthy of putting up for the public to read.

Such chauvinistic males however (and their doormat female counterparts), only write and put up such articles to support their own whimsical desires and cannot refute the life of great Muslim women like Hazrat Aisha – who serves as the kind of role model of perfection that Muslim women can aspire for and try to attain. Her legacy is an outstanding example that Islam allows women to partake in all aspects of society which many Muslim women given the choice (which they have) would do so aswell.

Hazrat Aisha is the greatest scholar and jurist Islam has produced, in all disciplines, such as tafsir, hadith, fiqh, history of Arabs and Islam, Arabic language and medicine. Whom even the great companions of the Prophet such as Abu Bakr and Umar as well as other wives of the Prophet, peace be upon him, would refer to as the final resource person in all such matters.
She was incharge of an army in a battle she led aswell, (the battle of Jamal), to seek justice in the murder of the third Caliph Osman bin Affan, the son-in-law of the Prophet. She was the commander in chief, hence she was also a military commander.

Hazrat Aisha was the epitome of both ‘stoic justice’ AND compassion and insha allah has a place in Paradise aswell.

Would they brand her as a feminist too I wonder?

Peace

gag order

30th April 2005, 12:54 AM

Messenger of Allah (saw) said, "He is not one us who calls for `Asabiyah,*******or who fights for `Asabiyah or who dies for `Asabiyah."

it could be that feminism is just another form of asabiyyah which divides on gender while other acts of asabiyyah divides on nationalistic or tribalistic grounds ?

it is well known amongst the muslims that a woman cannot lead men in prayer this is well substantiated and is known by necessity. so the issue isnt about a woman trying to make her mark in a "man's world" 

the issue is that there is no legal justification for a woman leading men in prayer. its not about choice, its not about men versus women its not about men "putting women in their place" its about law its about SHARIA!

and besides why is a western feminist so OVERLY CONCERNED about a woman leading men in prayer ??? 

consider that allah never never chose a woman to be a messenger or a prophet, such a high rank was awarded exclusively to MEN now thats something a western femenist*******SHOULD be overly concerned about !*******

but then again feminism is a secularist/athiest/pagan ideal that is nothing more than what i call "gender fascism"

Anonymous

30th April 2005, 05:02 PM

Take it easy 'gag order'! Well whilst its true that Allah has only narrated to us examples of male messengers and Prophets. Its also worth noting that He tells us in the Quraan that He has chosen to narrate some stories of messengers and some we are told about and some we know nothing about. So Allah knows best whether any female messengers existed.

Another important thing to notice is that although no female messenger is listed in Islamic history, noble women like Mariam the Mother of Isa (peace be upon them) and Firaun's wife Asiya have been mentioned as great women.

gag order

2nd May 2005, 04:35 AM

to every nation was sent a messenger allah tells us, 

he also mentioned the noblest of woman, mariam, had there been somone as significant as a prophetess surely we would come to*******know of it and surely this prophetess would outrank mariam as the noblest of women!

Anonymous

15th September 2005, 10:26 PM

i think that just for their own pride , women do not need to lead on prayers. God thought that should not be so, so who are we to disobey Allah?



men are not superior to women, and vice versa, we should be mature and accept that and not try to be like men . we are women and women only.

Anonymous

5th March 2006, 02:07 AM

regarding this news about Amina Wadud, leading Jumma prayer is quite shocking. I understand if there were only women in a room full of females, who might need leading the prayer in the sense of acting to make prayer and not being a leader or like an Imam in a mosque! I found this out today... and have been supporting Amina on the bases of a literature of hers that i read for an essay that i had to write, and i quite came to like the way she expressed feminism in terms of the verse'men are in charge of women...' on the bases of interpretations of the Qur'an which after her giving her opinions and research backs up her arguement. So now i really don't understand why a person with so much knowledge about Islam would turn to this path and not the straight path of Allah/God?

As for knowledge, it is not wrong for both gender to seek knowledge. In the Qur'an Allah says to seek Knowledge...knowledge is the key to Islam, Without knowledge we would not be able to accomplish our deen in the correct way and invite others to the Ummah and react to the wrong doers who's trying to mis-read Islam. So how is it wrong for women to work or get into career? Do you not know that women do have potential but because we can do certain task just as men, it don't make us like a man, therefore we don't like to mimick as men. Yet i understand that there are some people in this world (women) who have short hair, but it doesn't make them a muslim. A so called muslim may adopt western values but it doesn not mean they follow the correct code of conduct or the religion of Islam in the wider sense. Therfore, people shouldn't walk around with a*******name saying yeh*******'hey i'm a muslim'.

then again how would you know a real muslim sister wearing a head scarf has short hair, even if she was to have it? End of the day, if a women make a mistake is it always her fault? I think it's the society that has a part to play in it, pushed her to the edge. but then again why with name like that and such a heavy scholastic background would she even do that? Does she not have any sense? What is she trying to prove to the whole world? 'Hey look at me. I'm a really great person and seeking the pleasure of Allah only, so anything i do good intentionally is right? Well think again Amina and the likes of women like her.

So if Amina was to read this, i would ask her, what msg does she give to the student who study's Islam and uses her books for references? would they really go about trying to use her or ignore her? More like dump everything she stands for even if that means she done great deal of good in the past. 

Ithink this should be a reflection to the whole of muslim students especially at universities and sisters praying Jummah prayers with the brothers (of course in a separate room!).

Anonymous

5th March 2006, 02:11 AM

Amina Wadud: Qur'an and Women

regarding Jummah Prayer

Anonymous

5th March 2006, 02:12 AM

Originally Posted by Anonymous

regarding this news about Amina Wadud, leading Jumma prayer is quite shocking. I understand if there were only women in a room full of females, who might need leading the prayer in the sense of acting to make prayer and not being a leader or like an Imam in a mosque! I found this out today... and have been supporting Amina on the bases of a literature of hers that i read for an essay that i had to write, and i quite came to like the way she expressed feminism in terms of the verse'men are in charge of women...' on the bases of interpretations of the Qur'an which after her giving her opinions and research backs up her arguement. So now i really don't understand why a person with so much knowledge about Islam would turn to this path and not the straight path of Allah/God?

As for knowledge, it is not wrong for both gender to seek knowledge. In the Qur'an Allah says to seek Knowledge...knowledge is the key to Islam, Without knowledge we would not be able to accomplish our deen in the correct way and invite others to the Ummah and react to the wrong doers who's trying to mis-read Islam. So how is it wrong for women to work or get into career? Do you not know that women do have potential but because we can do certain task just as men, it don't make us like a man, therefore we don't like to mimick as men. Yet i understand that there are some people in this world (women) who have short hair, but it doesn't make them a muslim. A so called muslim may adopt western values but it doesn not mean they follow the correct code of conduct or the religion of Islam in the wider sense. Therfore, people shouldn't walk around with a*******name saying yeh*******'hey i'm a muslim'.

then again how would you know a real muslim sister wearing a head scarf has short hair, even if she was to have it? End of the day, if a women make a mistake is it always her fault? I think it's the society that has a part to play in it, pushed her to the edge. but then again why with name like that and such a heavy scholastic background would she even do that? Does she not have any sense? What is she trying to prove to the whole world? 'Hey look at me. I'm a really great person and seeking the pleasure of Allah only, so anything i do good intentionally is right? Well think again Amina and the likes of women like her.

So if Amina was to read this, i would ask her, what msg does she give to the student who study's Islam and uses her books for references? would they really go about trying to use her or ignore her? More like dump everything she stands for even if that means she done great deal of good in the past. 

Ithink this should be a reflection to the whole of muslim students especially at universities and sisters praying Jummah prayers with the brothers (of course in a separate room!).



*******Babli

Anonymous

5th March 2006, 02:14 AM

Originally Posted by Babli

Amina Wadud: Qur'an and Women

regarding Jummah Prayer