Don't Be So Gullible!

[Umm]

Assalaamu Alaiakum,
Brothers and sisters, the believer is not stung from the same hole twice.
I don't want to post the details, but if certain Muslims had kept the following incidents from history/naseehah in mind, they wouldn't be behind bars right now.

1) Do NOT fall for emotional blackmail. Doesn't matter if you are in Madinah at the time of rasoolullah (SAW), or today in the UK. If your family is trying to get you off the Path, don't trust them and don't fall for emotional blackmail.

"The story of ‘Umar bin Al-Khattab, ‘Ayyash bin Abi Rabi‘a and Hisham bin Al-‘Asi, who agreed to meet at a certain place one morning in order to leave for Madinah; ‘Umar and ‘Ayyash came but Hisham was detained by the Makkans.

Shortly afterwards Abu Jahl, and his brother Al-Harith came to Madinah to see their third brother ‘Ayyash. They cunningly tried to touch the most sensitive area in man, i.e. his relation with his mother. They addressed him claiming that his mother had sworn she would never comb her hair, nor shade herself off the sun unless she had seen him. ‘Ayyash took pity on his mother, but ‘Umar was intelligent enough to understand that they wanted to entice ‘Ayyash away from Islam so he cautioned him against their tricks, and added "your mother would comb her hair if lice pestered her, and would shade herself off if the sun of Makkah got too hot for her." These words notwithstanding, ‘Ayyash was determined to go and see his mother, so ‘Umar gave him his manageable docile camel advising him to stick to its back because it would provide rescue for him if he perceived anything suspicious on their part. The party of three then set forth towards Makkah. As soon as they covered part of the distance, Abu Jahl complained about his camel and requested ‘Ayyash to allow him to ride behind him on his camel. When they knelt down to the level of the ground, the two polytheists fell upon ‘Ayyash and tied him. They rode on into Makkah shouting at people to follow their example with respect to ‘fools’. [Ibn Hisham 1/474; Bukhari 1/558]"


Today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6594019.stm


2) Don't voluntarily go down to a police station and incriminate yourself. How many gullible brothers have toodled along down to a station, and under pressure, signed any old confession put in front of them, thereby giving the police enough info to nab them. If you were a "terrorist", and they had enough evidence on you to convict, they would come and arrest you with a warrant! Let them put away their rods and nets, you aren't being part of their fishing expedition. You are innocent, so stay calm and don't panic. Muslims may be guilty by default in the eyes of the pigs, but we ourselves should not have this fatalistic attitude.

3) Don't trust the word of a kaafir or a munafiq, especially in war. Subhanallah, rasoolullah (SAW) himself told us, "War is deceit".

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 325:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle sent out ten spies under the command of 'Asim bin Thabit Al-Ansari, the grand-father of 'Asim bin 'Umar Al-Khattab. When they reached (a place called) Al-Hadah between 'Usfan and Mecca, their presence was made known to a sub-tribe of Hudhail called Banu Lihyan. So they sent about one hundred archers after them. The archers traced the footsteps (of the Muslims) till they found the traces of dates which they had eaten at one of their camping places. The archers said, "These dates are of Yathrib (i.e. Medina)," and went on tracing the Muslims' footsteps. When 'Asim and his companions became aware of them, they took refuge in a (high) place. But the enemy encircled them and said, "Come down and surrender. We give you a solemn promise and covenant that we will not kill anyone of you." 'Asim bin Thabit said, "O people! As for myself, I will never get down to be under the protection of an infidel. O Allah! Inform your Prophet about us." So the archers threw their arrows at them and martyred 'Asim. Three of them came down and surrendered to them, accepting their promise and covenant and they were Khubaib, Zaid bin Ad-Dathina and another man. When the archers got hold of them, they untied the strings of the arrow bows and tied their captives with them. The third man said, "This is the first proof of treachery! By Allah, I will not go with you for I follow the example of these." He meant the martyred companions. The archers dragged him and struggled with him (till they martyred him). Then Khubaib and Zaid bin Ad-Dathina were taken away by them and later on they sold them as slaves in Mecca after the event of the Badr battle.


"Once I was ambushed by a force of 25 Russian soldiers. I was all alone, and two Russian soldiers approached me and ordered me to surrender myself and to drop my weapon. I raised my weapon and killed both soldiers before taking cover behind a tree. The Russians launched a firestorm of bullets against me; I asked Allah that I not be wounded and captured by the enemy; I asked Allah that I may be martyred or that I may escape the ambush. All praise be to Allah, I escaped unscathed." ( Interview With Commander Arabi Barayev, Commander of Operation Yarmaluk- qoqaz.net)


There was news on Azzam once, about 2 mujaahids who were told to surrender by the najjis American troops. They even held a quran up as a surety of "peace". When the brothers lay down their weapons, they were captured, and I think they were killed too maybe.

If anyone can find that bit of news, please post.

[Abuz Zubair]

He returned to his home the following morning after an emotional telephone conversation with his family, jurors heard.

Didn't I say these youngsters are just for the hype, and when it comes to the crunch they cop out? Ironically, my experience tells me that these emotional youngsters are often the loudest of mouths. *hint*

[Yasir]

I don't want to post the details, but if certain Muslims had kept the following incidents from history/naseehah in mind, they wouldn't be behind bars right now.Where would they have been exactly?
Would they have gone on to murder dozens of Muslims and non-Muslims alike in their recklessness in the name of the deen, whilst some twisted leader behind them sat gleefully balancing his tabloid slogans of Jihad between his Social Security appointments and visions of imaginary concubines?Didn't I say these youngsters are just for the hype...My sentiments exactly; the deen to some of these children has become nothing more than a theatrical performance.

[Umm Ahmed]

Young brothers dont listen too well, which is a part of growing up if we all turned out exactly as our parents there would be a lot of stagnation in development , its the youth who try new things or better the old things , but now these are dangerous times , they cant be pushing the envelope on a lot of things .
This is where the parents and especially brothers who are just that bit older and wiser can help them and guide them to not doing anything that can basically get them thrown in Bellmarsh for a long time.

[Umm]

1) We shouldn't be gloating over the imprisonment of any Muslim. My post refers to a number of recent cases, not just the Bradford one mentioned.
2) Abu Zubair, it isn't a case of copping out. It is a case of being tricked by Paki parents who were themselves tricked by the police into assisting the arest of their sons. Parents who took the word of kaafirs saying that nothing would happen to their sons. This was my point. If the parents wanted to stop their sons, they didn't need to go running to the police.

3) Brother Yasir, Do you have proof that these brothers were Al-muhaajiroon? I can think of 2 Muslim brothers (not Al-Muhairoon) off the top of my head, who are very good Muslims Masha'Allah. One of them, he willingly gave himself in to the munafiq police from his own country, because they had threatened his granny. He did an honourable thing, and then the police put out the lie that they had been pursuing him for x amount of days, and then they found him. He hasn't done anything wrong in the Laws of Islaam, but now sits behind bars, roting in a jail in a "Muslim" country. I am sure you would call him a terrorist. And his concern? His concern is what is happening to the Ummah of Muhammad (SAW), not for his own self.

The other brother, he did his duty as a Muslim man, and was convicted. Does that make him a bad person? Whose laws and criteria are we following?

[gag order]

"Mohammed Irfan Raja, 18, ran away from his home in east London leaving a note for his parents saying he was going to be a martyr for Islam."

and equally stupid are his parents for incriminating him, way to go mum and dad!

yasir at least try to understand the issue here, just becos the report claims he is a terrorist does not necassarily mean he is one or that he is going to blow himself up in the UK in the midst of commuters. if he really was heading to 'a camp in pakistan' chances are he would end up fighting coalition troops in afghanistan, hardly a crime in islam now is it?

[Umm]

yasir at least try to understand the issue here, just becos the report claims he is a terrorist does not necassarily mean he is going to blow himself up in the UK. if he really was heading to 'a camp in pakistan' chances are he would end up fighting coalition troops in afghanistan, hardly a crime in islam now is it

Exactly my thoughts.

[Abuz Zubair]

Fair criticisms shouldn't be taken as gloating over something bad that befalls a person.

I wasn't talking about the naivety of the parents. I was specifically referring to young kids acting on impulse instead of thinking things through rationally, and then copping out under slight emotional pressure from the family... Some of these things you'll just have to trust me on that, I am afraid.

[Yasir]

Umm, my point of contention here is not that they are/were from Al Muhajiroon or any other cult for that matter.

It is a fact of Law and Order, if you do something deemed illegal in any country, the law enforcement agencies will reprimand you. If someone was to expose themselves indecently in the street, I expect they would be arrested. If that individual happened to be Muslim, should the Muslim Community consequentially be expected to all chant, “British Court, Go to Hell! Free the Muslim Prisoner!”?

My point was, you said, "...if certain Muslims had kept the following incidents from history/naseehah in mind, they wouldn't be behind bars right now...", I asked where exactly do you think they would be? Would you have rather they’d gone on to do something reckless, and their youth been exploited in the name of the Deen?

I’m not quite sure what your citing accounts of two other people has to do with this.

[Umm]

It is a fact of Law and Order, if you do something deemed illegal in any country, the law enforcement agencies will reprimand you. If someone was to expose themselves indecently in the street, I expect they would be arrested. If that individual happened to be Muslim, should the Muslim Community consequentially be expected to all chant, “British Court, Go to Hell! Free the Muslim Prisoner!”?

And what if something is illegal, but it is a required duty as a Muslim?


My point was, you said, "...if certain Muslims had kept the following incidents from history/naseehah in mind, they wouldn't be behind bars right now...", I asked where exactly do you think they would be? Would you have rather they’d gone on to do something reckless, and their youth been exploited in the name of the Deen?

I’m not quite sure what your citing accounts of two other people has to do with this.

My point was, or is, what do you understand as "reckless....youth been exploited by the Deen?" Is anyone who leaves in the Path of Allah, reckless?

[Umm]

Would they have gone on to murder dozens of Muslims and non-Muslims alike in their recklessness in the name of the deen, whilst some twisted leader behind them sat gleefully balancing his tabloid slogans of Jihad between his Social Security appointments and visions of imaginary concubines?

Umm, my point of contention here is not that they are/were from Al Muhajiroon or any other cult for that matter.

Weren't you referring to OBM as the "twisted leader"?

[Yasir]

And what if something is illegal, but it is a required duty as a Muslim?What is required from the Muslim that is illegal?
Tube-Bombing? Blowing up a bus? To come online and act the part of cyber-vanguard?

My point was, or is, what do you understand as "reckless....youth been exploited by the Deen?" Is anyone who leaves in the Path of Allah, reckless?I didn't say "...exploited by the Deen", I said "...in the name of the Deen", and there is a considerable difference between the two.

To adhere to the Sharee'ah is not reckless.
To do something positive for Islam and for the benefit of all people, is something praiseworthy. To chaotically do something destructive to both Muslims and non-Muslims, whether that is in London, Riyadh or elsewhere, is something blameworthy.

[gag order]

What is required from the Muslim that is illegal?
Tube-Bombing? Blowing up a bus? To come online and act the part of cyber-vanguard?

yasir at least try to understand the issue here, just becos the report claims he is a terrorist does not necassarily mean he is one or that he is going to blow himself up in the UK in the midst of commuters. if he really was heading to 'a camp in pakistan' chances are he would end up fighting coalition troops in afghanistan, hardly a crime in islam now is it?

why use the incident to rebuke OBM when no connection to him has been established? or use it as a stick to beat those who you see as jihadis?

[Yasir]

if he really was heading to 'a camp in pakistan'...Quite a triumph for someone that didn't get further than the next morning, don't you think?why use the incident to rebuke OBM when no connection to him has been established?Who mentioned anything about OBM?

[gag order]

Fair criticisms shouldn't be taken as gloating over something bad that befalls a person.
I wasn't talking about the naivety of the parents. I was specifically referring to young kids acting on impulse instead of thinking things through rationally, and then copping out under slight emotional pressure from the family... Some of these things you'll just have to trust me on that, I am afraid.

thats what you meant to say but somehow your keyboard typed it as:

"Didn't I say these youngsters are just for the hype, and when it comes to the crunch they cop out? Ironically, my experience tells me that these emotional youngsters are often the loudest of mouths. *hint*"

[gag order]

Who mentioned anything about OBM?

yasir: "whilst some twisted leader behind them sat gleefully balancing his tabloid slogans of Jihad between his Social Security appointments"

sounds like OBM but thats ok i dont like him either, unless you want to tell us who you meant.......................................

other than that, theres no point in mentioning irrelevant matters such who is behind them or where the police should look next?

[Skillganon]

yasir at least try to understand the issue here, just becos the report claims he is a terrorist does not necassarily mean he is one or that he is going to blow himself up in the UK in the midst of commuters. if he really was heading to 'a camp in pakistan' chances are he would end up fighting coalition troops in afghanistan, hardly a crime in islam now is it?

why use the incident to rebuke OBM when no connection to him has been established? or use it as a stick to beat those who you see as jihadis?

I agree. They throw the word terrorist on anyone If he is muslims and still moving.

They play the game nicely.

[Umm]

Yasir, sorry I didn't copy your quote fully. Yes, you said "in the name of the deen".

What is required from the Muslim that is illegal?
Okay, if a brother wants to go to kashmir from the Uk and fight the Indian army. Is it illegal in the UK? Yes
Is it a fard kifaya duty as a Muslim? Yes.

As for saying "Who mentioned anything about OBM"
Who did you mean then?

[Abuz Zubair]

Okay, if a brother wants to go to kashmir from the Uk and fight the Indian army. Is it illegal in the UK? Yes
Is it a fard kifaya duty as a Muslim? Yes.

Is it Fard 'Ayn on him, in particular to go to Kashmir? this is the question to determine whether there really is conflict between two different legal commitments (for the lack of a better way to put it)

[Umm]

I didn't say it was far ul 'ain on him, in particular to go to Kashmir. Since when does jihaad have to be fard ul ain for a brother to feel it is his duty to go? If he feels it is compulsory on him in particular, due to his Islamic conscience, what is the harm? So the UK laws, they do prevent Muslims from practicing their deen compared to the pre 9/11 world.

Abu Zubair, if you knew a Muslim brother was going to Kashmir, Iraq etc, it would be your duty as a Brit citizen to inform the authorities. Now isn't that handing a Muslim over to the kaafirs? Isn't that a conflict of interests?

[gag order]

Quite a triumph for someone that didn't get further than the next morning, dont you think?

oh how clever of you, if smug comments is all you have left then quit this topic while you are ahead.

[Abuz Zubair]

As a rule of thumb, if the secular laws contradict with Islamic laws and if one can get away with ignoring the secular laws without the fear of any harmful consequences then he should adhere to the Islamic law.

However, if one fears harm for himself or his family if he were to ignore the secular law, then he is better of abiding by the secular law because in his situation he is forced, and if he doesn't, he risks his life, honour and deen, and that of his family if they rely on him. A classic example of that is car insurance in the UK. It is better for a person to get has car insured, despite the fact that it is Haram, than to risk being stopped by the police, being dragged to the court for not having an insurance and suffering the consequences.

But with respect to the question you mentioned, let's say this brother who told you he is going abroad is actually working for MI5 (and there are many of them here), and his mission is to incriminate you somehow. You try your best to control what you write and say, but he sends you a pm, or writes a public post saying: 'Brothers!! Make Dua for me that I am Shaheed! I am leaving for Kashmir tomorrow!'. Now, if you report him to the police, you would be declared a murtad, and if you don't, you would've fallen for his trap, and the authorities would easily incriminate you for not telling them about this lunatics plans.

Now, why should I sacrifice my life, deprive my kids of a father, and a bread-winner, for an idiot who wants to go to Kashmir for a month's adventure (as this is what usually happens), provided that he is genuine, not to mention if he's a spook.

And when you look at these issues from a broader perspective, it is more about what is wise and unwise, than what is simply Halal or Haram. People should remember that their actions have consequences on their families, not to mention the wider Muslim community, while they might or might not be having good time with their houris.

If I ever did anything stupid, God forbid, I would rather my wife contacts the authorities straight away and tells them of my whereabouts, or at least that she doesn't have a clue where I am. Simply because I would not like my family to be manhandled by the pigs, or dragged to the court.

[Umm]

Yes, you are absolutely right regarding car insurance. However, you can hardly use the same parallel as with fard-kifaya jihaad or training. Yes car insurance is haram, but it doesn't harm any other individual by having it. Neglecting the oppressed Muslims DOES concern other Muslims, and if everyone had this attitude, what a loss for the ummah.

However, if one fears harm for himself or his family if he were to ignore the secular law, then he is better of abiding by the secular law because in his situation he is forced, and if he doesn't, he risks his life, honour and deen, and that of his family if they rely on him.

True, but that doesn't mean that you mock those who decide to put personal safety secondary to the primary issue of helping oppressed Muslims.

Specific case of a M15 agent:

You could say that you guessed this person was
a) taking rubbish
b) obviously an informer

Therefore you didn't report them.

General case of a genuine Mujaahid, which is what we are talking about, you say:


Now, why should I sacrifice my life, deprive my kids of a father, and a bread-winner, for an idiot who wants to go to Kashmir for a month's adventure (as this is what usually happens), provided that he is genuine, not to mention if he's a spook.



La hawla wa la quwwata illa billa. With this attitude, Abdullah al-Britaani, Abu Aadam al-Amreeki, Masood al-benin, and Suraqa al-Andalusia would not have achieved shahaadah, as all of them were in the US/UK/France and not in a country where the jihaad was fard ul ain on them.

A one month's journey in the Path of Allah is an "idiot's adventure"?

So you are basically saying that a non-waajib duty, should be neglected, in case the British Public have a unfavourable view of Islaam?
Is a Muslim sister in the UK being manhandled by the pigs the same as sisters being raped across the Ummah and impregnated?

Abu Zubair, I can't hardly believe that these words are coming from you.

People should remember that their actions have consequences on their families, not to mention the wider Muslim community, while they might or might not be having good time with their houris.

Any Muslimah with an ounce of taqwa should rather her husband was shaheed and she takes the consequences for it, as her trial would be far less than what the Muslims abroad are facing - those he has gone to assist. Yes, it is easy to say that without having being tested ourselves in this situation, I don't deny that. But this is the attitude a Muslim should have.

Perhaps we should all buy fiddles to play while the Ummah burns, as long as Mr and Mrs Jones next door can still see us as "moderate Muslim neighbours" and pop in for a cup of tea.

Shame that Kaafirs can openly support the murderous yahood army, yet Muslims are not only not saying anything to support the Mujaahideen due to using hikmah as a British citizen and incitement laws, but going to the extreme of mocking anyone who does do their duty!

[Abu Faaris As-Sumalee]

and if you don't, you would've fallen for his trap, and the authorities would easily incriminate you for not telling them about this lunatics plans

no no, there are ways out of this.

There was a very informative workshop that was held in my community about the new anti terror laws, i advice every single person to attend one, just to know your rights.

The police cant do anything to you if you demonstrate that you fully thought that the person had no intention of doing anything, so for example if you get a pm like that ,you say something on the lines of :

"I have beyond reasonable certainty that you have no intention of going ahead with your supposed "plans" . If i did however have the slightest inclination that you were serious or even contemplating the thought of executing your ideas then i would not hesitate for a moment to report you to the police in the hope of stopping you."

Having said that though, people need to understand that if the old bill want you they will get you and lack of evidence is no barrier for them.

[Yasir]

Any Muslimah with an ounce of taqwa should rather her husband was shaheed and she takes the consequences for it, as her trial would be far less than what the Muslims abroad are facing - those he has gone to assist. Please do write to her (http://cageprisoners.com/prisoners.php?id=1377) and others explaining how their trials are 'far less' than those faced by others. Please do not forget to mention that them thinking otherwise would be comparable to them not having 'an ounce of taqwa', unlike those that analaytically evaluate the trials of others online.

[Umm]

"My husband, I loved him a lot, I believe he loved me and he was a very good father. Both of us were striving to learn more about Islam. His decision to become a suicide bomber, how it came about, I don't know."

Funny how I never noticed her saying "Oh, how stupid my husband was for doing such a thing". I never noticed her saying that "What a selfish thing to do."

[Abu wakee]

So, 'Umm' tell us, is your husband striving fe sabilillah in some caves of kashmir? Or working his butt off to feed you, so you can come online and preach us the truth?

Do tell.

[Umm]

Please do write to her (http://cageprisoners.com/prisoners.php?id=1377) and others explaining how their trials are 'far less' than those faced by others. Please do not forget to mention that them thinking otherwise would be comparable to them not having 'an ounce of taqwa', unlike those that analaytically evaluate the trials of others online.

No-one is belittling her trial. Not at all. We are simply saying that you can't compare any sister in the UK, in Belmarsh or not, to the situation of Muslim sisters being raped and having their entire family wiped out in Chechnya etc.

In fact, I regularly correspond with a sister who is imprisoned, and she basically says the same thing. "Just make du'a for the ummah ukhtee. That is more important than my trial." Etc Etc

Abu Wakeel, no my husband isn't in the caves of Kashmir, but at least he isn't
1) Belittling that duty
2) Making fun of imprisoned Muslims
3) Teaching me that we should ask Blair and Reid which actions of Islam we should or shouldn't practice in order to be a patriotic citizen.

[Abu wakee]

1) But he's not performing the 'duty' being preached by his wife

2) Instead he's expressing his sympathy through letters?

3) Yes, instead he's just decided to settle where the rule of Blair and Reid is established, and upbring his children there

oh, and maybe even (4) Start a revolution through the net and be the enemy within?!

Way to go, he must've fulfilled his duty now!

[Umm]

But he's not performing the 'duty' being preached by his wife


Abu Wakee

Am I responsible for my husband's deen? Jihaad isn't a duty on me, so it is quite pointless of you to mock me. If I was a brother, you would have a point.


2) Instead he's expressing his sympathy through letters?

I said that I write to an imprisoned sister. His deeds are not relevant to this thread.

3) Yes, instead he's just decided to settle where the rule of Blair and Reid is established, and upbring his children there


Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were posting from Afghanistan.

oh, and maybe even (4) Start a revolution through the net and be the enemy within?!

He doesn't post on here, never has posted on an Islamic forum, so what you have said is a slander.



Way to go, he must've fulfilled his duty now!
As for your catty comment regarding my husband, the following ayah suffices:
"O you who believe! Let not a group scoff at another group, it may be that the latter are better than the former;"


There are many brothers online who make a thing about segregation, when their own houses are fully mixed. We don't post on here and say "Hey, brother X, don't you sit in a room with your sister in laws?" That would be an immature and jaahil thing to do. We don't resort to making personal attacks on forum member's families when we have failed to address the argument raised. That would be a childish thing to do.

Btw brother Yasir, your point about a Muslim sister who was greatly tested, it brings a few thoughts to mind.

A Muslim sister I know, her baby died, when it was a few weeks old. Now, we didn't say to her "Well, at least it wasn't your whole family" as obviously that is not what someone needs to hear at such a time. However, if there was a sister in the ummah whose whole family was killed in front of her, then obviously, she has suffered more. Doesn't mean you make light of someone's trial to acknowledge that some people are tested more. It also doesn't mean that someone such as ourselves has to have to be imprisoned in Belmarsh to understand the logic of that.

If a person is trying to raise awareness regarding the plight of Muslims in Kashmir, Iraq etc, I fail to see why this is a source of ridicule.

wa-salaam,
Umm.

[Abuz Zubair]

Yes, you are absolutely right regarding car insurance. However, you can hardly use the same parallel as with fard-kifaya jihaad or training. Yes car insurance is haram, but it doesn't harm any other individual by having it. Neglecting the oppressed Muslims DOES concern other Muslims, and if everyone had this attitude, what a loss for the ummah.

Taking insurance is Haram, yet, going to Kashmir to make Jihad, according to you is only Fard Kifaya, which means it is NOT an obligation on him as a person to get up and leave for Kashmir. So if Sharia allows one to commit the Haram (insurance) to save himself fro the bad consequences, how can ever the Sharia allow one to do which isn't even obligatory on him, subsequently, not only putting him in danger but also his family and friends!

The other myth we must overcome is that by one individual from the UK going abroad will significantly help alleviate the suffering from our brethren around the world, and especially in Kashmir! We've been fooled into fighting in Kashmir for a long time where the Mujahidin groups have always seen the Pak army as allies. Pak army only lets the Mujahidin slip through the border in order to advance its own political interests in the region. And now that Musharraf is in power, there is hardly any cross-border activity. Ever wonder why Kashmir is just dragging on and on and on? Or has our shallowness and blind emotionalism prevented us from focusing on the goal (liberation of Kashmir), and instead focused our attention on ONE of the means (military struggle)?

This is where the difference in thinking comes. Many people went to Chechnya to fight, but when it got tougher, especially after 9/11, they all left and completely forgot the Chechen cause, because they only thought along the one line. Others who remained focused on the goal, remained connected with the cause, and began working on new fronts, political, media, activism, etc, in order to work towards their focus.

We are, unfortunately, very shallow about our own civilisation that we are seeking to defend, and subsequently implement. This is why I have said that with this type of immature thinking, there is no way we can run a country. Ideologically we are extremely shallow, such that even the average communist would be more ideologically aware than an average Jihadist. And because of our gullible nature, we have been banging our heads against the wall in Kashmir - with absolutely no success at all for decades!

There is a reason why Sh Abdullah Azzam LEFT Palestine for (Jordan and then) Saudi. He could also have started up his own Islamic group, and he had the capacity to do so. The Ikhwan were many in number in Jordan. But due to the political nature of the struggle, he simply couldn't continue there, because there wasn't any future for the Islamists there at the end of the struggle. He was a long-sighted leader, and of course, only someone like him could set up the university of Jihad in Afghanistan, and not shallow Jihadis like us.

True, but that doesn't mean that you mock those who decide to put personal safety secondary to the primary issue of helping oppressed Muslims.

Get this out of your mind, that the Muslims are being helped by these youngsters taking a year out in Afghanistan or elsewhere. They make absolutely NO difference at all (and I am talking about Muslims from Western countries). And do not tell me they do, especially if you have no past or experience in something like this to be able to tell.

I am mocking them because they are not only putting their own lives in jeopardy, but also of their families, and the fact that they are dragging other people into the mess they do not even agree with.

Specific case of a M15 agent:

You could say that you guessed this person was
a) taking rubbish
b) obviously an informer

Therefore you didn't report them.

General case of a genuine Mujaahid, which is what we are talking about

This is the dilemma, that you simply do not know who is genuine and who is not, and you will understand this if you had any experience in this at all, but you obviously don't and that's your fault. I remember, some ppl blamed certain bros in certain locality for over paranoia with respect to security issues, and al-hamdulillah, they were smart and THEY WERE RIGHT, and others were completely wrong.

There have been people leading attacks on the communists in Afghanistan in the 80s, and they were caught out as spies and killed!

For all I know, even you could be a spy asking me these sensitive questions. I am not saying you are, but different people have different experiences, which shape their sensitivities and alertness threshold. And you CANNOT blame them for it, because they are simply more experienced than you are, and see what you can't.

La hawla wa la quwwata illa billa. With this attitude, Abdullah al-Britaani, Abu Aadam al-Amreeki, Masood al-benin, and Suraqa al-Andalusia would not have achieved shahaadah, as all of them were in the US/UK/France and not in a country where the jihaad was fard ul ain on them.

A one month's journey in the Path of Allah is an "idiot's adventure"?

They weren't idiots. They most probably didn't tell anyone of their plans, and most importantly, they didn't go to spend a nice summer holiday to come back continue with their medicine as many middle-class young Muslims might have done, and this is what I referred to as idiocy.

So my question still stands, why should I sacrifice myself and my family for a naive idiot who tells me that he's going for Jihad for two flipping weeks?! For which I could be banged up for years?!

Any Muslimah with an ounce of taqwa should rather her husband was shaheed and she takes the consequences for it, as her trial would be far less than what the Muslims abroad are facing - those he has gone to assist. Yes, it is easy to say that without having being tested ourselves in this situation, I don't deny that. But this is the attitude a Muslim should have.

Yes, a Muslim wife should not only be patient but also be proud that her husband did something *tangible* to help the Muslims around the world. On the other hand, to leave one's country to save someone else's wife, while leaving your own wife and kids at the mercy of these pigs, is not only Islamically irresponsible, but idiotic. If you want to go ahead and do what you want to do, then at least do not implicate others who might not even have a clue what you're up to!

No one is suggesting here that our Islam is dictated by Blair and Reid. What is being said here is that one should a) speak from experience, b) know what is or isn't wajib in Sharia on that particular person, c) see what one can or cannot do in his capacity, d) what consequences his actions will have on his family and the wider community, and for what gains exactly, and most importantly, e) have a solid vision of where exactly he and the Muslim Ummah would be in the next decade if he were to continue with his path. This is called having a vision. Anything else is just blind emotionalism and wandering in the dark, and we have been doing that for decades without results.

Thank you.

[Abdullah al-Shishani]

Hmm…


Just wanted to comment on the “fard kifaya” jihad mentioned in this very strange and even scary discussion:




Bismillaahir Rahmaanir Raheem

Shaykh Al-Albānī on the Obligation of Jihād

At-Tibyān Publications

Shaykh Al-Albānī – may Allāh have Mercy on him and place him in the Firdaws – said, in his commentary to 'al-'Aqīdah at-Tahāwiyyah' (pg. 82-83):



"…and know that Jihād is of two types:



The first: Fardh 'Ayn (an individual obligation), and this is fighting the enemy who has attacked the lands of the Muslims, such as the Jews who have occupied Palestine: so every single Muslim is in a state of sin until they (the Jews) are expelled from it.



The other: Fardh Kifāyah (a communal obligation), if a group fulfills the obligation, then the responsibility falls from everyone else. And (this type) is a struggle to carry the Islāmic Da'wah to the other lands until they are ruled by Islām. So, whoever submits, then he is left alone, and whoever stands in its way, then he is fought until the Word of Allāh is Most High. So, this type of Jihād is ongoing until the Day of Resurrection more so than the first type.



And unfortunately, some of today's writers have denied this (form of Jihād). Not only that, but they have made this (supposed absence of offensive Jihād) from one of the virtuous and distinguishing characteristics of Islām! And this is not except a sign of their many signs of weakness and laziness in establishing the obligation of Jihād, and the Messenger of Allāh (peace be upon him) spoke the truth when he said: "If you engage in 'Īna (a form of usury), and hold onto the tails of cattle, and become pleased with agriculture, and leave Jihād in the Path of Allāh, then Allāh will put a humiliation over you that He will not remove until you return to your Dīn.""



[End of quote]


Al-Qurtubi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his Tafseer (8/15):
When jihad becomes inevitable because the enemy has overrun one of the (Muslim) regions, then it becomes obligatory for all the people of that region to mobilize and to go out to fight, whether they are light (being healthy, young and wealthy) or heavy (being ill, old and poor), each according to his abilities, with or without the permission of his parents. No one who is able to go out, warrior or helper, should stay behind. If the people of that country are unable to fight their enemy, then those in nearby and neighbouring countries have to go out to fight, in whatever numbers are required to show support, so that they will know that they have the strength to stand up to them and ward them off. Similarly everyone who knows of their weakness in the face of their enemies and knows that he can go and help them must also go out and fight. All of the Muslims should be united against their enemies. If the people of the area where the enemy has invaded and occupied fight off the enemy themselves, then the others are relieved of that duty. If the enemy approaches the Muslim lands but does not enter, the Muslims must still go out to confront them so that the religion of Allaah will prevail and in order to protect the Muslim homeland and humiliate the enemy. There is no scholarly dispute on this point.
http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=34830&ln=eng&txt=jihad



Abdullah Azzam said:

The First Condition: With reference to the Kuffar entering a land of the Muslims.
In this Condition the pious predecessors, those who succeeded them, the Ulama of the four Mathhabs (Maliki, Hanafi, Shaffie and Hanbali), the Muhadditheen, and the Tafseer commentators, are agreed that in all Islamic ages, Jihad under this condition becomes Fard Ayn upon the Muslims of the land which the Kuffar have attacked and upon the Muslims close by, where the children will march forth without the permission of the parents, the wife without the permission ofher husband and the debtor without the permission of the creditor. And, if the Muslims of this land cannot expel the Kuffar because of lack of forces, because they slacken, are indolent or simply do not act, then the Fard Ayn obligation spreads in the shape of a circle from the nearest to the next nearest. If they too slacken or there is again a shortage of manpower, then it is upon the people behind them, and on the people behind them, to march forward. This process continues until it becomes Fard Ayn upon the whole world.
Sheikh Ibn Taymia says on this topic: "About the defensive jihad, which is repelling an aggressor, is the most tasking type of jihad. As agreed upon by everyone, it is obligatory to protect the religion and what is sacred. The fIrst obligation after Iman is the repulsion of the enemy aggressor who assaults the religion and the worldly affairs. There are no conditional requirements such as supplies or transport, rather he is fought with all immediate capability .The Ulama, our peers and others have spoken about this." Ibn Taymia supports his opinion of the absence of the requirement of transport in his reply to the judge who said: "If jihad becomes Fard Ayn upon the people ofa country, one of the requirements, in comparison to Hajj, is that one must have supplies and a ride if the distance is such that one shortens the prayer". Ibn Taymia said: "What the Judge has said in comparison to Hajj has not been stated before by anybody and is a weak argument. Jihad is obligatory because it is for the repulsion of the harm of the enemy, therefore it has priority over Hijr. For Hijr no transport is considered necessary. Of the jihads some take priority." It is furthered in a sahih hadith narrated by Ebaad Bin Asaamat that the Prophet (saw) said: "it is upon the Muslim to listen and obey in hardship and prosperity , in what he likes and dislikes, and even if he is not given his rights". Therefore, the pillar of the most important of obligations, is the marching forward in times of hardship as well as prosperity. As has been stated, contrary to Hajj, the obligation remains present in times of hardship. And this is in offensive jihad. So it is clear that defensive jihad carries a greater degree of obligation. To defend the sacred things and the religion from the aggressor is obligatory , as agreed upon by everyone. "The fIrst obligation after Iman is repulsion of the enemy aggressor who assaults the religion and the worldly affairs." Now we look at the opinions of the four Mathhabs who are all in agreement on this point.
http://www.religioscope.com/info/doc/jihad/azzam_defence_3_chap1.htm


similar words from Sheykh Humood ibn Ukla (r)

http://saaid.net/Warathah/hmood/h48.htm


obligatory jihad for women and men:

http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=26106&ln=eng

http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=45618&ln=eng

[Umm]

Abu Zubair, I understand your points. I agree with 50% of them.


The other myth we must overcome is that by one individual from the UK going abroad will significantly help alleviate the suffering from our brethren around the world, and especially in Kashmir!

No-one said that 1 individual significantly helps. However to go to the extreme of saying that they basically have no effect...

If you must snigger at ignorant emotional jihadis, where did they spring up from? Even Dr Frankenstein didn't deny his creation! What happened to the "klashnikov being greater than the pen?" The da'wah of the last decade was all in 1 direction, and overnight you are condescendingly mocking everyone else for not being visionary? Why should you assume that if a person posts/asks regarding the physical jihaad, that they are ignorant of the fact that a war is fought on many fronts, and that the ideological is crucial?


"We've been fooled into fighting in Kashmir for a long time where the Mujahidin groups have always seen the Pak army as allies. Pak army only lets the Mujahidin slip through the border in order to advance its own political interests in the region."

Everyone knows this. If a person is sincerely striving to make Allah's Word supreme, they can't be blamed for the manipulation of others. It's like the Soviet conflict. It is said that the US used the Mujaahideen. But who was using who? It was a mutual benefit.


"have a solid vision of where exactly he and the Muslim Ummah would be in the next decade if he were to continue with his path. This is called having a vision. Anything else is just blind emotionalism and wandering in the dark, and we have been doing that for decades without results."

What is your vision? That the UK pulls its troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan due to inter-faith dialogue? That demonstrations free Babar Ahmad and co? These same deonstrations that were previously mocked as being "for women?" That the UK British Muslims all become middle-class intellectuals able to procure mass revertions to Islam?

As one sheikh said years ago "You have a few more years here, then you'll be conscripts." And he didn't mean for the British army either. That is not emotionalism; it is realism.

[Umm]

Also, no one is advocating brothers announcing their plans by making claims/boasts via the Net and then wondering why they were arrested. Yes, we know empty vessels make the most noise. How many admins of boards have had the classic "Brother/sister, I want to go for jihaad. Please send me." We can guess they are sincere but naive wannabes at most and self-appointed yank amateur spies at worst.

Yes, we are familiar with the fact that a proper munafiq is not easy to spot. This is not a new phenomena. Existed at the time of Rasool (SAW). Even the sahabah would not know who many of them were.

Point is, you never know who might misunderstand advice given due to the current climate's circumstances and then become more over-zealous and reckless as a counter-reaction to a perceived "brother X has gone soft"

[gag order]

how can ever the Sharia allow one to do which isn't even obligatory on him, subsequently, not only putting him in danger but also his family and friends!

I am mocking them because they are not only putting their own lives in jeopardy, but also of their families, and the fact that they are dragging other people into the mess they do not even agree with.

supposing they werent so gullible, and did not put themselves or their families and freinds in danger and went to pakistan and kashmir on a tour, would you still mock them?

[abudurrah]

support your muslims, if you think theyre doing something wrong advise them, dont give them up to the police.

[Umm]

I think a lot of Muslim youth, they misunderstand that a willingness to serve the deen is not enough in and of itself. I wouldn't trust a 1st yr med student with little ilm and hardly any experience to operate on me, no matter how keen they were to remove a troublesome appendix etc.

Recklessness gets you nowhere. Of course, "ad deenu naseehah", but most of the time, the reckless ones most liable to be caught are not "top al-qaida operatives" as the Media loves to spin it, but bungling amateurs, who never sought advise in the 1st place.