Gujarat - a Modern Day Tragedy

[Umm]

Assalaamu Alaikum,
I have been studying the Gujarat massacres recently, which happened 5 years ago. The saddest thing to me was the cowardice of these desi Muslims. I am desi myself, so this is not a racist comment. Rather, I feel that living amongst the muskrikeen, it weakened not just the deen (which was nominal anyway in a lot of cases), but the very manhood of a lot of these Muslim men. I can't imagine Paki men, even those who don't pray, acting in such a cowardly fashion.

An old man with a pure white beard who ran and left his disabled wife to the mercy of a mob.

Young men lying and hiding in the corn fields hearing young Muslimahs having their innocent bodies desecrated and mutilated by the Hindu mob.

Mothers crying under their beds as they hear their daughters being raped outside their houses.

And the few, the very few, who were killed defending their Muslim sisters from attack. The few who stood like men, knowing that sometimes, a final act stand is your only option.

[Abuz Zubair]

There fault, perhaps. They should have made hijra. What are they doing living amongst the mushrikin?

[Umm]

That is true.
Mind you, if the same thing happened to us in the UK, would that be seen with the same mindset?

Insha'Allah we will use this thread to type up some of the horrors witnessed.

[Abuz Zubair]

Mind you, if the same thing happened to us in the UK, would that be seen with the same mindset?

The question should be the other way around:

If something like that happened here, we already KNOW what the mindset would be: Ah! They deserved it, anyway, for living amongst the mushrikin... We already get these vibes right here don't we? You know, we all pay taxes that eventually end up turning into a bullet killing a brother in Afghanistan, and therefore, our blood is halal.

So the question should be, why not also apply the same logic to the Guji Muslims? And Chinese... And Burmese... and, and, and.....

[Umm]

I do apply the same logic. The tragedy for me, is why they felt safe, living amongst the mushrikeen, rather than making the effort to migrate to Pak. All Hindus are taught to hate Muslims, yet some of these men were even "married" to these mushrikahs!

[Yasir]

The tragedy for me, is why they felt safe, living amongst the mushrikeen, rather than making the effort to migrate to Pak. Do you know how many Muslims there are in Gujarat, and in India as a whole?
Migrate to Pakistan and live amongst, what are described as some as mushrikeen/people who do not know tawheed?

[Umm]

I am from India. You can't say Pakistan is the same in terms of living with Muslims, jaahil or not. These people were lambs to the slaughter. And as for numbers, that is just playing with statistics. Look at the number they would have been in 1947, if you want an accurate answer to your question.

It makes me sad to see my fellow Muslims raped and burnt. It makes me angry that they felt "hurt" because it was people they trusted. As someone told me once, she had read that a girl or woman had said that "The person who raped me, I used to call him bhaiyaa (older brother)."

[Abuz Zubair]

I do apply the same logic. The tragedy for me, is why they felt safe, living amongst the mushrikeen, rather than making the effort to migrate to Pak. All Hindus are taught to hate Muslims, yet some of these men were even "married" to these mushrikahs!
Imagine pouring the Indian Ocean into Thames.

[Umm]

Do you know how many Muslims there are in Gujarat, and in India as a whole?
You know how many Gujarati Hindus are in the UK? Look at any corner shop. Why could Hindu Gujis migrate, but not so many Muslim ones?

[Abuz Zubair]

You know how many Gujarati Hindus are in the UK? Look at any corner shop. Why could Hindu Gujis migrate, but not so many Muslim ones?
And how many are still left in Gujrat?

The point isn't how many are able to migrate... the point is, what percent are able to migrate...

So out of the entire Gujrat population, what percent do you think actually migrated?

[Umm]

So you are saying that none of those in the massacres, none of their families were able to migrate? They didn't see a problem with living in a mushrik land. Just as the Bosnians didn't have a problem sleeping and dating the Serbs, until they slaughtered them.

There are lessons to be learnt in the massacres that afflict our Muslim Ummah.

[S1ave0fA11ah]

Imagine pouring the Indian Ocean into Thames.


A little of the ocean would actually fit in the river before the banks burst etc (especially with UK's recent hot weather!) so do make du'a for those few working to make, May Allah grant it (ameen) a feasible hijrah.

However to perhaps put things in more realistic/practical terms the phrase - "fleeing for the sake of one's deen" as opposed to "hijrah" might arguably be better as hijrah has conditions (not returning to the original land for more than 3 days) and issues such as the attainment of residency visas for example or not being accepted by the host land.

The other thing to keep fixed in one's mind is the sad fact that masses of the ummah is engrossed in shirk, bidah and lack of prayers for example and hijra is not even in their vocab let alone in their plans so to mention the impossible i.e. ocean fitting in river is a little defeastist or irrelevant in the first place.

[Abuz Zubair]

So you are saying that none of those in the massacres, none of their families were able to migrate? They didn't see a problem with living in a mushrik land. Just as the Bosnians didn't have a problem sleeping and dating the Serbs, until they slaughtered them.

Let's say 1, 10 or a 100 families (being charitable) were able to migrate... how many are actually left?!

Are you saying that hundreds of thousands of population can simply migrate into Pak or England, even over a period of a decade?!

This is the problem with a Salafi-Jihadi mentality. They are so locked up in their fantasy world that they cannot even make sense of the real world.

I mean, how can you suggest that such a huge population can easily get up and vacate the entire region, and then not expect ppl to laugh.

It reminds me of the same old conversation I had with al-Shishani here, where after a lot of attempts, he finally conceded that it isn't possible for the ppl to simply get up and leave... Although I don't know if he still remembers that or the affects of that have worn off already.

But, just hear yourself out at least and examine what you are saying.

There are lessons to be learnt in the massacres that afflict our Muslim Ummah.
Indeed, and I learnt my lesson well and since I have grown up. Others obviously haven't.

How many Muslims were killed in Bosnia in comparison to how many migrated and how many STILL were left behind to die of starvation?!

A little of the ocean would actually fit in the river before the banks burst etc (especially with UK's recent hot weather!) so do make du'a for those few working to make, May Allah grant it (ameen) a feasible hijrah.

I would suggest that both of you read the discussion I had with bro Abdullah al-Shishani, as I do not want to repeat myself, over and over...

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=3036

[Umm]

I know more than 10 Guji families in the UK alone. I think you are making up these figures off the top of your head.

"Are you saying that hundreds of thousands of population can simply migrate into Pak or England, even over a period of a decade?!"

Do you have any idea how many Asians moved here over the course of the 1960's? Let alone how many migrated to Canada, Pakistan, America etc?

Even 100, 000 over a decade, that is 10, 00 people a year, between several countries.

[abu_ibrahim]

Its not practical to ask millions and millions to leave. They should try to live in towns which are entirely Muslim and make their own community there. That way they can live like an autonomous state within India.

[abu_ibrahim]

I know more than 10 Guji families in the UK alone. I think you are making up these figures off the top of your head.

"Are you saying that hundreds of thousands of population can simply migrate into Pak or England, even over a period of a decade?!"

Do you have any idea how many Asians moved here over the course of the 1960's? Let alone how many migrated to Canada, Pakistan, America etc?

Even 100, 000 over a decade, that is 10, 00 people a year, between several countries.

10 Guji Families, whats that as a total? Maximum 100 people? Do you know Gujarat has over 50 million people, lets say 10% or 20% are Muslim. That is about 5 million or 10 million people, maybe even more as Muslims in Gujarat are many in number.

[Umm]

For a start, I never said that the entire population of Gujarati Muslims should have migrated. I simply do not believe that every family there who stayed, that it was because they were unable to leave. I am saying that many more could have migrated, compared to those that did. If so many Muslims could come to the UK for the dhuniya, shouldn't more Muslims have made leaving for the sake of the deen a priority?

Abu Zubair gave 10 as an example, and I stated that even I know 10 off the top of my head. Obviously, I am not the only Muslim in the UK to know Guji families.

Over several decades, you estimate that 10 became 100? 10 in each family in a period longer than 50 years? Where is your maths?

[Abuz Zubair]

For a start, I never said that the entire population of Gujarati Muslims should have migrated.

Sounds familiar... deja vu? Have we been here before?

Isn't this what everyone says when forced to think rationally about what he/she is saying on this particular topic?

And isn't this why I advised that you read this thread (http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=3036) fully, because all you are saying here has been thoroughly discussed. If you have something new to add, I would be very interested to know. Its just that I don't want to go through the same old cycle of arguments and counter-arguments over and over.

[Umm]

Sounds familiar... deja vu? Have we been here before?

Isn't this what everyone says when forced to think rationally about what he/she is saying on this particular topic?

It happens to be true; I never claimed it. I still maintain that the problem is an unwillingness to want to move, thinking Muslims can live with mushriks in peace. A lot more could have moved than did.

Because they left the deen, they were humiliated. Everyone knows the cowardly nature of a Hindu. For them to make such a stand, it shows the state of the Muslims.

[Umm]

Abu Zubair, you still didn't reveal the source of your intriguing statistics whenever it comes to hijrah.

[S1ave0fA11ah]

Sounds familiar... deja vu? Have we been here before?

Isn't this what everyone says when forced to think rationally about what he/she is saying on this particular topic?

And isn't this why I advised that you read this thread (http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=3036) fully, because all you are saying here has been thoroughly discussed. If you have something new to add, I would be very interested to know. Its just that I don't want to go through the same old cycle of arguments and counter-arguments over and over.

ok what do you say about shaikh muqbil's (rahimuallah) comments that yes hijrah is very burdonsome upon the Muslims (today) so they should make their niyaat to be to flee from the fitan (of where they currently live) i.e. basically flee with their religion. So in the case of gujaraat it would have been flee for their lives from attacks, say in the West flee to preserve emaan?. I don't think this was touched upon in the link you gave above which goes to a lengthy (12 or so pages) discussion on the topic of hijrah.

[Abuz Zubair]

It happens to be true; I never claimed it. I still maintain that the problem is an unwillingness to want to move, thinking Muslims can live with mushriks in peace. A lot more could have moved than did.

Because they left the deen, they were humiliated. Everyone knows the cowardly nature of a Hindu. For them to make such a stand, it shows the state of the Muslims.
So I assume you most probably haven't read the thread I posted the link for.

Abu Zubair, you still didn't reveal the source of your intriguing statistics whenever it comes to hijrah.

Well, don't you think you should have found out the statistics yourself before deciding that more than a 3rd of the Ummah should pack their bags and leave?

I can say a 3rd cuz I have done some of my homework. I have about a dozen studies sitting on my shelf to do with minorities, and they all seem to agree on a 3rd of the Umma living as minorities.

But for your own benefit you can try out this link:
http://www.islamicpopulation.com/

Although the information you will find here will be very limited.

I do intend to post a thread about the various different Muslim minorities and the challenges they face, sometime in the future, iA

[Umm]

Okay, I will read the thread insha'Allah, sometime today insha'Allah.

With this 1/3 of the Ummah, or even more, do the ulemaa include people like most Turks, who do not pray, celebrate Christmas over Eid, drink, are 100% happy with secular laws etc? People who might be called "Muslim in name only", if one was to be charitable.

[Yasir]

They didn't see a problem with living in a mushrik land.And those of us that have settled in the West?... so they should make their niyaat to be to flee from the fitan (of where they currently live) i.e. basically flee with their religion.Flee, and go where?Do you have any idea how many Asians moved here over the course of the 1960's?
Let alone how many migrated to Canada, Pakistan, America etc? Has the level of migration from the Sub-Continent to those countries remained constant for the last four decades?
If not, why do you think that is?

[Umm]

And those of us that have settled in the West?
I was born here. It isn't by choice, and will leave insha'Allah once I am able.

Has the level of migration from the Sub-Continent to those countries remained constant for the last four decades? If not, why do you think that is?

I don't know. Immigration was encouraged in the 1960's, when they needed workers. Nowadays, they don't want brown faces immigrating; it is a lot more difficult with the citizenship tests etc.

[Abuz Zubair]

Okay, I will read the thread insha'Allah, sometime today insha'Allah.

With this 1/3 of the Ummah, or even more, do the ulemaa include people like most Turks, who do not pray, celebrate Christmas over Eid, drink, are 100% happy with secular laws etc? People who might be called "Muslim in name only", if one was to be charitable.
Statistically speaking, all those who identify themselves as Muslims are Muslims. Theological differences are kept out of it. When a people are persecuted for identifying themselves as Muslims, what counts is how they identify themselves, and not their theological beliefs or the level of practice.

And if we were to ignore the vast number of non-practising Muslims, then we shouldn't have defend the Bosnian Muslims at all. In fact, it shouldn't even have been our cause, because they didn't even know the shahadatayn.

[Yasir]

It isn't by choice, and will leave insha'Allah once I am able.So if a Gujarat like massacre was to occur before you left - May Allah not make it so, and shower His mercy upon us all - would someone be justified in saying, "Oh that Umm, she effectively suffered the inevitable. What was she thinking living all those years in a land of kufr? Didn't she know all Brits are taught to hate Muslims? She was just one of the many lambs to the slaughter!"Why could Hindu Gujis migrate, but not so many Muslim ones?When did these Hindu Gujaratis migrate?Immigration was encouraged in the 1960's, when they needed workers. Nowadays, they don't want brown faces immigrating; it is a lot more difficult with the citizenship tests etc.Yes, Economic Migration today to the West is certainly not comparable to what it was in the 50's-60's. The level of migration from the sub-continent has fallen sharply since then. To suggest that masses could have just caught the next ship to Dover (as people did in the 60's) or the next flight into Heathrow from Gujaraat to save themselves is something illogical. Even to migrate to Pakistan, on a practical level, how feasible is that for say a group of five hundred Gujaratis?

It is important to have lived in these countries to be able to appreciate their lifestyle, and have an informed opinion about their affairs and the practicalities they face at every level.

[Umm]

So if a Gujarat like massacre was to occur before you left - May Allah not make it so, and shower His mercy upon us all - would someone be justified in saying, "Oh that Umm, she effectively suffered the inevitable. What was she thinking living all those years in a land of kufr? Didn't she know all Brits are taught to hate Muslims? She was just one of the many lambs to the slaughter!"

Yes, someone would be justified in saying so. I hold the same opinion myself.

To suggest that masses could have just caught the next ship to Dover (as people did in the 60's) or the next flight into Heathrow from Gujaraat to save themselves is something illogical. Even to migrate to Pakistan, on a practical level, how feasible is that for say a group of five hundred Gujaratis?

No one is saying it had to be the "next flight over". My point is, between the partition and 2002, why did they not suspect that the BJP would be capable of doing something like this?
In the UK, it is secular law that sees Islam as a threat to their way of life. So a kaafir might feel that a woman veiling makes him feel uncomfortable, but he has no problem with a Muslim praying in their houses and eating halal meat. With Hindus, it is a religious hatred of Muslims in its entirety. So yes, I still do ask why so may chose to stay, and they didn't even have sufficient courage to stand up and defend their women. They lived without having had any military training to fall back on. And since 2002, a few, have realized the error of their ways.

[Abuz Zubair]

Sister Umm, please just read the thread I gave you the link for.

[Abdullah al-Shishani]

We already get these vibes right here don't we? You know, we all pay taxes that eventually end up turning into a bullet killing a brother in Afghanistan, and therefore, our blood is halal.


I dont know who espouses such here, but its wrong. But could this be argued if there was an islamic place to make hijra to, which was ready to receive you, and you had the capability to do that, but you choose to stay in a country actively at war with muslims and pay them jizya, without islamically valid justification, knowing you are helping them?

[Abdullah al-Shishani]

Let's say 1, 10 or a 100 families (being charitable) were able to migrate... how many are actually left?!

Are you saying that hundreds of thousands of population can simply migrate into Pak or England, even over a period of a decade?!

This is the problem with a Salafi-Jihadi mentality. They are so locked up in their fantasy world that they cannot even make sense of the real world.

I mean, how can you suggest that such a huge population can easily get up and vacate the entire region, and then not expect ppl to laugh.

It reminds me of the same old conversation I had with al-Shishani here, where after a lot of attempts, he finally conceded that it isn't possible for the ppl to simply get up and leave... Although I don't know if he still remembers that or the affects of that have worn off already.

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=3036

:)

Bro I think you are right, from the real world point of view, in MOST cases. However, do you remember the Kosovo conflict? Around 1 million albanians left Kosovo, to neighbouring countries, just two thirds of Chechens left Chechnya in the beginning of war. As you said, many still stayed, but hundreds of thousands did get up and leave. Of course I'd rather the men stayed, as a sign was put up on the highway the refugees used saying : "Paradise is better than Ingushetia" but thats a different topic.

[Abuz Zubair]

Here we go again...

Just as I had guessed before, you also need to read through that thread, again.

[Abdullah al-Shishani]

Assalaamu Alaikum,
I have been studying the Gujarat massacres recently, which happened 5 years ago. The saddest thing to me was the cowardice of these desi Muslims. I am desi myself, so this is not a racist comment. Rather, I feel that living amongst the muskrikeen, it weakened not just the deen (which was nominal anyway in a lot of cases), but the very manhood of a lot of these Muslim men. I can't imagine Paki men, even those who don't pray, acting in such a cowardly fashion.

An old man with a pure white beard who ran and left his disabled wife to the mercy of a mob.

Young men lying and hiding in the corn fields hearing young Muslimahs having their innocent bodies desecrated and mutilated by the Hindu mob.

Mothers crying under their beds as they hear their daughters being raped outside their houses.

And the few, the very few, who were killed defending their Muslim sisters from attack. The few who stood like men, knowing that sometimes, a final act stand is your only option.


wa aleykum assalam,

alhamdulillah, that we have sisters with such understanding.

[S1ave0fA11ah]

Sister Umm, please just read the thread I gave you the link for.

you still haven't answered my question ahki...:

ok what do you say about shaikh muqbil's (rahimuallah) comments that yes hijrah is very burdonsome upon the Muslims (today) so they should make their niyaat to be to flee from the fitan (of where they currently live) i.e. basically flee with their religion. So in the case of gujaraat it would have been flee for their lives from attacks, say in the West flee to preserve emaan?. I don't think this was touched upon in the link you gave above which goes to a lengthy (12 or so pages) discussion on the topic of hijrah.

[Abuz Zubair]

you still haven't answered my question ahki...:

ok what do you say about shaikh muqbil's (rahimuallah) comments that yes hijrah is very burdonsome upon the Muslims (today) so they should make their niyaat to be to flee from the fitan (of where they currently live) i.e. basically flee with their religion. So in the case of gujaraat it would have been flee for their lives from attacks, say in the West flee to preserve emaan?. I don't think this was touched upon in the link you gave above which goes to a lengthy (12 or so pages) discussion on the topic of hijrah.
read the thread.

[S1ave0fA11ah]

read the thread.

read the red:

I don't think this was touched upon in the link you gave above which goes to a lengthy (12 or so pages) discussion on the topic of hijrah.

[Abuz Zubair]

read the red:

I don't think this was touched upon in the link you gave above which goes to a lengthy (12 or so pages) discussion on the topic of hijrah.
Well, you need to read it again.

[S1ave0fA11ah]

Well, you need to read it again.

I'll ask you for the last time as I don't wish to debate any further after that as your not specifically answering my question:

ok what do you say about shaikh muqbil's (rahimuallah) comments that yes hijrah is very burdonsome upon the Muslims (today) so they should make their niyaat to be to flee from the fitan (of where they currently live) i.e. basically flee with their religion. So in the case of gujaraat it would have been flee for their lives from attacks, say in the West flee to preserve emaan?. I don't think this was touched upon in the link you gave above which goes to a lengthy (12 or so pages) discussion on the topic of hijrah.

note brother abuz zubair - what do YOU say about the Shaikh's specific kalam about fleeing for one's deen should hijrah be too burdonsome?

[Abuz Zubair]

With all due respect to your opinion, I would find it surprising if you could find one scholar in the Muslim world who would say what you said:

The entire world Muslim population - even those living in Muslim countries - should simply get up and leave to join the military struggle in Chechnya and Afghanistan.and

You are suggesting that the entire Muslim Ummah must pack their bags and go... I am sorry, but this is insane, and no Muslim scholar would support you in this 'fatwa'.and

Excuse me, but what have you got to do with dalil?! You shouldn't be playing around with dalil if you are a muqallid. Go to a Mufti you trust and ask him a simple and straight forward question:

Dear Mufti, is it obligatory upon every single person living amongst Muslim minorities in all those countries that are fighting against Islam, such as Thailand, Burma, India, the West in Bulk, Morocco, Tunisia etc etc, to make hijra to remote mountains of Afghanistan and Chechnya?

If he says 'yes', you pack your bags and leave.

If he says 'no', you continue to live on the dole.and

If you were to read it with understanding, you would have provided me an exact quote from Sh Muqbil suggesting that 1/3 of the Umma should mass-migrate. Even if he were to say something as crazy as that, his fatwa would have been a laughing stock, as it happened with Sh al-Albani when he suggested that the Palestinians should make hijra from Palestine.

Hence, my question still stands, would any scholar in the world write a fatwa suggesting that 1/3 of the Ummah should mass-relocate and sign his name underneath such crazy declaration? Anyone?

It is easy saying very generally: 'Muslims living in kuffar countries, or where they are not allowed to practise freely should leave'. But it is a completely different situation when one is asked to APPLY this ruling to 100s of millions.

One of the respected Shaykh in the Haram was explaining the chapter on Hijra (in bab al-jihad) while studying Muntaha al-Iradat, and he mentioned the same old classical ruling. After the lesson, I approached him and said, in light of what you said, what is the ruling on 1/3 of the Ummah that live as minorities in non-Muslim countries?

He said (his exact words): A third of which Ummah?!

I had to inform him a little about the statistics before it clicked... I have immense respect for the Shaykh, but the point is that not everyone of the scholars (especially amongst the Salafis) knows the numbers, let alone know how to do the maths!

[JayshAllah]

My friend was living in Gujarat and working for an NGO whilst the riots took place. The scenes he tells me about are horrific and they make my blood boil. I do not think that the Indian Muslims should migrate, but rather I think they should fight for an independant state, basically another Pakistan. (There are more Muslims in India than in Pakistan.) Unfortunately, most Indian Muslims I have met are brainwashed and very patriotic towards India. Quite disgusting.

[juwairiyah]

Its not practical to ask millions and millions to leave. They should try to live in towns which are entirely Muslim and make their own community there. That way they can live like an autonomous state within India.

Assalamo'laaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh

Its like that bro Alhamdulillah.Those who live in hindu localities,it's there fault .MashaAllah u can hear adhan 5 times ,slaughter animals on eid day,Offer eid salah in the open both men and women...

In gujrat many muslims are bora which is a sect of shia

[Umm]

My friend was living in Gujarat and working for an NGO whilst the riots took place. The scenes he tells me about are horrific and they make my blood boil. I do not think that the Indian Muslims should migrate, but rather I think they should fight for an independant state, basically another Pakistan. (There are more Muslims in India than in Pakistan.) Unfortunately, most Indian Muslims I have met are brainwashed and very patriotic towards India. Quite disgusting.

That is a good idea Masha'Allah.

[S1ave0fA11ah]

...Even if he were to say something as crazy as that, his fatwa would have been a laughing stock, as it happened with Sh al-Albani when he suggested that the Palestinians should make hijra from Palestine...

Really? - who was laughing?. Does their laughing automatically make the scholar wrong in his fatwa?. Did their laughing mean that NOBODY actually made hijrah - as I know there are Palestinians in different lands. Perhaps some obtained nationality like in the UK (I know of some). Perhaps they are better off here after listening to the shaikh and have jobs/homes/education. Perhaps he was wrong in his speech but you are not shaikh anyway so which scholars back you in this laughing stock fatwa of shaikh al-abani (rahimuallah) or is it just your own deduction???.

[Abuz Zubair]

Oh... so do you also suggest that the Palestinians should pack up and leave?

The fatwa became a laughing stock because this is exactly what happened. Some Ikhwani and even heretics simply got hold of this fatwa and simply launched an all out attack on the Shaykh, some even saying that he's a Zionist agent.

[muwahhid786]

My friend was living in Gujarat and working for an NGO whilst the riots took place. The scenes he tells me about are horrific and they make my blood boil. I do not think that the Indian Muslims should migrate, but rather I think they should fight for an independant state, basically another Pakistan. (There are more Muslims in India than in Pakistan.) Unfortunately, most Indian Muslims I have met are brainwashed and very patriotic towards India. Quite disgusting.

You expect indian muslims to fight when there is no state with more than 25% muslim (hindus outnumber muslims by more than 8) and yet a place like kashmir with its more than 60% muslim population is still under hindu occupation. Yes we should fight but also the neighbors (pakistan) should fight also but it isnt that easy esp because many indian muslims are cowards (sad but true). But it isnt that easy.

My solution is that muslims should migrate to portions of india where muslims are strong such as mysore, kerala, hyderabad, u.p., etc and fight from there. And hopefully establish another pakistan. I rather live in a pakistan than live in a mushrik dominated place like gujarat.

Any other solutions?

[shaheed666]

Assalamu alaikum,
Having read the entire discussion its appaling to hear from people(not all) giving opinions and even solutions without knowing the ground situation in india. so as person living here let me put some issues right..

1.muslims in india must do hijra..... how do u expect 20,00,00,000 muslims to do hijra to pak or bangla with munafiqs in power there and as for anyone who thinks indian muslims can do hijra to west or any other arab country ,he is insane and let me know if any country is willing to accept so many uneducated,illiterate muslims living below the poverty line...

2.its there fault for they are living among mushriks............ its sickening to listen such statements for if this statement is applied it can be applied to muslims in west who migrated to such filthy places rather than indian muslims who were born here....

3.muslims stayed there during partition............ this happened because of the confusing stand posed by the ulemas of the region many scholars of reputation even those form the deoband! were in favour of muslims staying back here...... this can be seen from the stand of scholars even now(maulana wahiduddin khan..etc)... this can be seen with the huge mass of people even with orthodox jamaats like tabligh or jamiat ulema which has gigantic following in india

4.They lived without military training......... yes the munafiqs(leaders and scholars) among us fooled us and continue to fool muslims by telling us we are living in a secular and democratic state and the state will protect us and incidents like gujarat are only isolated!!!

5. most muslims in gujrat are bohras!!!!.......... this brother seems in a mood to justify the carnage and let me tell u brother this is the excuse many muslims since time immemorial have used to escape their responsiblity of going to the rescue of fellow muslims by labelling any tragedy or disaster on fellow muslims as result of there sins(i even remember some neo-salafis justifying u.s. attack on afghanistan as a result of taliban's hanafi adherence!) and as for most muslims in gujrat being bohras its completely false,may be most bohras are gujarati's but not the other way round

6.muslims must do hijrah to places like mysore(i guess what he meant was karnataka),kerala,tn..... may be brother ur out of touch with reality gone are the days when these places used to be safe....... mysore has recently seen some riots with the rise of bjp there......

Now let me tell u muslims in hind are not chickens just like there counterparts in tunisia, just because there is no resistance here the problem here is apart from being heavily outnumbered,hindus are allowed to have arms training (bajrang dal has trained upto 3000000 hindus in fire arms) and the disassociation of indian muslim from the rest of ummah for a long time it was only SIMI which took a pan ummah stand and as a result were falsely implicated and thereby completely liquidated...... and to add thier frustation none of the muslim scholars or organisations supported them for fear of being labelled anti national........ but my brothers the most important reason why muslims here are facing a threat of extinction are because of the muslims disassociation form jihad(in theory as well as practice i.e no one ever heard of a indian muslim fighting in afghanistan,chechnya,palestine,iraq or even kashmir!!!!) and the indifference of the ummah as a whole towards indian muslims(except our pakistani mujahideen who have lost thousands of mujahids avenging the deaths of muslims in india) and finally to brothers who believe muslims in india,china or even burma should do hijrah should know our enemies are too cunning to let us do hijrah for they know once the muslims from here do hijrah they would come back at some time to do even JIHAD!

[JayshAllah]

You expect indian muslims to fight when there is no state with more than 25% muslim (hindus outnumber muslims by more than 8) and yet a place like kashmir with its more than 60% muslim population is still under hindu occupation. Yes we should fight but also the neighbors (pakistan) should fight also but it isnt that easy esp because many indian muslims are cowards (sad but true). But it isnt that easy.

My solution is that muslims should migrate to portions of india where muslims are strong such as mysore, kerala, hyderabad, u.p., etc and fight from there. And hopefully establish another pakistan. I rather live in a pakistan than live in a mushrik dominated place like gujarat.

Any other solutions?

I agree that the Muslims in India should make Hijrah to those parts of India in which the Muslims are stronger. They should consolidate themselves in those places and then wage a war of independance when they have done that.

One might say that this is "silly" but aren't the Sikhs doing the exact same thing? The Tamils? And others?

The minimum that this does is strike fear into the hearts of the Indian government so that they will then come down and wish to negotiate peace terms.

[Umm]

Now let me tell u muslims in hind are not chickens just like there counterparts in tunisia, just because there is no resistance here the problem here is apart from being heavily outnumbered,hindus are allowed to have arms training (bajrang dal has trained upto 3000000 hindus in fire arms) and the disassociation of indian muslim from the rest of ummah for a long time

Akhee, you are telling us that Indian Muslims, they don't fight for Kashmir, they didn't do much to defend themselves in the carnage, and you are saying they are not "chicken"?

Begging mushriks who have swords in their hands "Forgive us"? Handing over their jewellery and money, just to have the mob take it all and then kill you?


They have Lashkar, jaysh, harkat etc in Pakistan, why didn't a few Gujarati men go and get training there, so that they would have some kind of protection if they ever were attacked in India? The problem was, they trusted these mushriks to protect them. Most of them are not on the deen, and some of them are quite happily married to Hindu women too. Gujarat, as tragic as it was, was Allah's humiliation upon these Muslims.

but my brothers the most important reason why muslims here are facing a threat of extinction are because of the muslims disassociation form jihad(in theory as well as practice i.e no one ever heard of a indian muslim fighting in afghanistan,chechnya,palestine,iraq or even kashmir!!!!)

The above quotation of yours kinda contradicts the 1st quote of yours in this post.

If someone like Eesa (Dhiren) Barot, a Hindu revert, could be raised in the UK, and go and defend his Muslims brothers and sisters in Kashmir, isn't it much more of a duty on the Muslims in India, to at least have training to protect themselves?

[shaheed666]

Assalamu alaikum,
Really? - who was laughing?. Does their laughing automatically make the scholar wrong in his fatwa?. Did their laughing mean that NOBODY actually made hijrah - as I know there are Palestinians in different lands. Perhaps some obtained nationality like in the UK (I know of some). Perhaps they are better off here after listening to the shaikh and have jobs/homes/education. Perhaps he was wrong in his speech but you are not shaikh anyway so which scholars back you in this laughing stock fatwa of shaikh al-abani (rahimuallah) or is it just your own deduction???.

Dear brother its absurd to tell palestinians-the land where jews will be annihilated,dajjal will be killed, should do hijrah leaving behind AL-AQSA and as for palestinians living in west having jobs/homes/education, i dont know what u mean if its well there well being that u wish to highlight compared to those living in Al Quds now, then thats what happens when u prefer hereafter over life, rebellion over submission,iman over kufr and i advice u to re-read the
Quran and find out what the munafiqs would say to those muslims who marched forth and if not for the heroic jihad of palestinians we would have lost Al-Aqsa for ever and as for hijrah i advice u not to blindly follow the opinion of a single scholar but instead look for what the salaf had to say on this topic........... if going by ur solution then even muslims in madinah should have done hijrah when attacked by the confederates,but that didnt happen cos hijrah is not done from place of iman to place of kufr, and if this place of iman is attacked its defended to the last man rather than doing what the kuffar wants us to do and more of all did the israelis leave the palestinians to live peacefully who did hijrah to lebanon ...... may be u need to understand that hijrah in islam means hijrah to place of islam(Dar-ul-islam) not abandoning Dar-ul-islam when occupied or attacked just to be slaughtered some where ........]
JazakaAllah

[shaheed666]

Assalamu alaikum,
Dear ukhti UMM what i meant was not all indian muslims are chickens to tell u there has been a sudden spurt in youths turning to jihad here and as for a few gujrati men going to train themselves i am more than happy to inform u that according to indian intelligence agencies youths from gujrat,aurangabad,bihar,uttar pradesh,assam are already in training camps and latest news is of one indian becoming a shaheed(inshallah) in iraq!!!!

[Umm]

I did hear Masha'Allah that some Gujarati men, after the genocide masha'Allah did g to the training camps and requested "Teach us to defend ourselves". Alhamdulillah, it is a good sign.

[shaheed666]

Most of them are not on the deen, and some of them are quite happily married to Hindu women too. Gujarat, as tragic as it was, was Allah's humiliation upon these Muslims.

yes ukhti most of them are not on deen just like the muslims esle where and i done know from where u got info that muslims are happily married to hindus, thats not a common occurence but rarely happens and even in such cases if its a muslim girl she is usually killed by her own family(i neither support nor condemn this) and if its a boy he is expelled from the community and all this happens in most of the cases except when the muslim(so called educated) has come to some other part of india to live else where and does all this without the knowledge of people then .............

[Umm]

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showpost.php?p=26238&postcount=5

[1mran]

yes ukhti most of them are not on deen just like the muslims esle where and i done know from where u got info that muslims are happily married to hindus, thats not a common occurence but rarely happens and even in such cases if its a muslim girl she is usually killed by her own family(i neither support nor condemn this) and if its a boy he is expelled from the community and all this happens in most of the cases except when the muslim(so called educated) has come to some other part of india to live else where and does all this without the knowledge of people then .............

u see this in uk, many muslims marrying non muslims.

in uni, i had sooooo many sikh and hindu girls come and ask me what islam says about marriage, and when i would ask why they were so interested in only the marriage side, they said they wanted to know if they could marry ther muslim boy friends..... :confused:


the things that happen in this country are totally sick...:(

[S1ave0fA11ah]

Oh... so do you also suggest that the Palestinians should pack up and leave?

The fatwa became a laughing stock because this is exactly what happened. Some Ikhwani and even heretics simply got hold of this fatwa and simply launched an all out attack on the Shaykh, some even saying that he's a Zionist agent.

I believe the same happended from many KSA scholars and/or people. When they heard about the Shaikh's (rahimuallah) position on the face veil i.e. not fard they accused him of promoting tabbaruj. My point being - does that make the ruling right/wrong?. Who cares what "some Ikhwani and even heretics" did - they had it in for the shaikh (rahimuallah) anyway.

Did the shaikh voice this fatwaa generally to the people of P'tine so that THOSE WHO ARE ABLE could act upon it and be successful with that option - like I said some have probably done so already (I know a family of P'tine origin settled in the UK). So what do you say about this family, O Abuz Zubair of P'tine origin who left that land and live in the UK?. Are they also wrong according to your hijrah views?. Are they living in delusion or cloud cuckoo land?. What would have been their life back home? - would they even have a house or work???. No disrespect but your blanket generalisations on hijrah would probably mean they are delusional cultists who should return at once!.

Only a complete an utter NUT would think all P'tine people would pack bags and leave. Do they ALL practise Islam?. To link this to a man of his standing - a man who was deep in his understanding of Islam - would also only come from a NUT. Bring some evidence from Islam that this Shaikh was wrong in his ruling and I might perhaps believe you Abuz Zubair but bringing the emotional reactions and/or attacks from deviated sects/heretics doesn't mean a dot - actually it probably enforces more trust in his speech as he (rahimuallah) was a strong and learned alim not swayed by common folk i.e. rabble.

[Abuz Zubair]

read your words:

My point being - does that make the ruling right/wrong?. Who cares what "some Ikhwani and even heretics" did - they had it in for the shaikh (rahimuallah) anyway.

and

Only a complete an utter NUT would think all P'tine people would pack bags and leave.

I rest my case, and I really do not have time to prove the fallacy of such a silly opinion.

[juwairiyah]

Assalamo'alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh

believe the same happended from many KSA scholars and/or people. When they heard about the Shaikh's (rahimuallah) position on the face veil i.e. not fard they accused him of promoting tabbaruj

Bro from where u came to know about this accusation.. I'd like to read too InshaAllah

[1mran]

Oh... so do you also suggest that the Palestinians should pack up and leave?

The fatwa became a laughing stock because this is exactly what happened. Some Ikhwani and even heretics simply got hold of this fatwa and simply launched an all out attack on the Shaykh, some even saying that he's a Zionist agent.

i think this reflects on the ignorance of these people. (heretics and others)

remember the saying, "ignorance of something, is not knowledge of it", so just because they dont see the wisdom behind something or understand something, doesnt mean they have knowledge on it.

Allah knows best if the sheikh said this, and if he did, maybe he's not wrong?

Look at how they (sufis +others) attacked ibn taymiyah when he said u shouldnt travel to visit the grave of the prophet (peace be upon him) yet the truth is that they didnt actually understand the Fatwa correctly

[ the explaination of this Fatwa can be found here: http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=10011&ln=eng]

So maybe Sheikh al-Albaani saw that the muslims are disunited, the ummah is weak, muslims are fighting each other and no1 (including muslims coountries surrounding) are helping the palestinians...who are being slaughtered!!

so he's telling them leave and go somewhere safe, just until the ummah sorts itself out, thn we will go back and take back palestine, the way Salahuddin ayoobi did.

Also, hijra from palestine is not haram!

did the prophet peace be upon him, not order weak muslims to travel to abbysinia FROM mekkah?

did the muslims not leave Mekkah for Medina????

but they did come back when they were stronger and they took Mekkah with ease

so maybe this is what the reasoning was of the sheikh?

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=3021&ln=eng



Allah knows Best

[Abuz Zubair]

Dear brother Imran,

Its better to read Sh al-Albani's comments yourself instead of saying: Well, may be he meant this or that.

Theoretically speaking, there is nothing wrong with what Sh al-Albani said. What he said is something found in nearly all books of fiqh. If a Muslim land is overrun by the enemy, it becomes incumbent upon the Muslims to repel the enemy. If they can't repel the enemy, nor can they practise their religion freely, they must pack their bags and leave. This is the standard traditional opinion found in all books of fiqh.

It becomes problematic when such a ruling is taken at face value and implemented on a current reality. It is not only absurd, but tactically suicide to suggest that the Palestinians should make hijra to other Arab countries, prepare themselves and then return to Palestine with force. This is disastrous because it involves vacating Palestine - whatever little we've left - for the Zionists.

Imagine if all Muslims were ordered to vacate the countries where the form a huge population, 40% in Albania for instance. The secularists would love to see the Islamists leave Turkey.

As I have said earlier, one of the reasons for the downfall of past Salafiyya is this very inability to relate the deen to our current reality. This is why many of our 'elders' in the UK, when they couldn't find practical solutions to our problems, they became modernists or Sufis.

We have to wake up and realise the context in which we're living and how to connect between religion and reality. All of this requires intellectual awakening.

[1mran]

Allah knows Best

[juwairiyah]

Assalamo'alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh

yes Abu Zubair is right Alhamdulillah.
how can one expect ppl from Palestine,India ,Burma and other kuff countries to pack up their bags and settle down in a muslim dominated country.There's none on the earth which is following sharaiah correctly not even Saudi .Will Saudi accept so many muslims.Saudi is in the process of Saudization.
Also the reason why ppl living in the West must leave is that they r unable to practise islam openly nor do they live in communities (like in India) ... Ppl cant hear adhan 5 times a day,offer eidul salah in the open... so many probs

[1mran]

Assalamo'alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh

yes Abu Zubair is right Alhamdulillah.
how can one expect ppl from Palestine,India ,Burma and other kuff countries to pack up their bags and settle down in a muslim dominated country.There's none on the earth which is following sharaiah correctly not even Saudi .Will Saudi accept so many muslims.Saudi is in the process of Saudization.
Also the reason why ppl living in the West must leave is that they r unable to practise islam openly nor do they live in communities (like in India) ... Ppl cant hear adhan 5 times a day,offer eidul salah in the open... so many probs


We shouldnt say what is right or wrong. everyone is entitled to their opinion, right?

If the Messenger of Allah, could make hijra, why cant these muslims?

maybe the all dont have to leave, just atleast the ones that are weak and helpless.

If the Muslims could leave Mekkah, to make Hijra, then what is Palestine? or Kashmir?

In the end, Human life comes above everything else, Allah will protect his holy places.

do u recall the story of the Elephants?

Allah knows best

[Abuz Zubair]

Your argument about Indian, Palestinian and Burmese Muslims is equally applicable to Muslims living in the West. You cannot expect 10% of French population to get up and leave for Saudi, or even 1.3 million Muslims in the UK. Moreover, the Muslims in the West are not being oppressed in the way that Burmese, Chinese and Indian Muslims are.

I would recommend everyone to watch this lecture by Yasir Qadhi... He hits the nail on the head!

1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgNx416ozqE

2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Awwxluch-FA

3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fifSmFumXk

4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZAhAJ9E_2U

5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZM-M5Z8x2c

6) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi5jOAP-hY8

7) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWPMA6xPrY0

8) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWzp3loLfhQ

[Abuz Zubair]

We shouldnt say what is right or wrong. everyone is entitled to their opinion, right?

If the Messenger of Allah, could make hijra, why cant these muslims?

maybe the all dont have to leave, just atleast the ones that are weak and helpless.

If the Muslims could leave Mekkah, to make Hijra, then what is Palestine? or Kashmir?

In the end, Human life comes above everything else, Allah will protect his holy places.

do u recall the story of the Elephants?

Allah knows best
Again... watch Yasir Qadhi's lecture and then decide.

[1mran]

Your argument about Indian, Palestinian and Burmese Muslims is equally applicable to Muslims living in the West. You cannot expect 10% of French population to get up and leave for Saudi, or even 1.3 million Muslims in the UK. Moreover, the Muslims in the West are not being oppressed in the way that Burmese, Chinese and Indian Muslims are.

I would recommend everyone to watch this lecture by Yasir Qadhi... He hits the nail on the head!

1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgNx416ozqE

2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Awwxluch-FA

3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fifSmFumXk

4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZAhAJ9E_2U

5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZM-M5Z8x2c

6) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi5jOAP-hY8

7) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWPMA6xPrY0

8) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWzp3loLfhQ

who said go to saudi arabia?

you only need to go as far as you can so that you are not being killed or oppressed.

this could be to another town, village, city or even naighbourhood!!!

Verily! As for those whom the angels take (in death) while they are wronging themselves (as they stayed among the disbelievers even though emigration was obligatory for them), they (angels) say (to them): "In what (condition) were you?" They reply: "We were weak and oppressed on earth." They (angels) say: "Was not the earth of Allâh spacious enough for you to emigrate therein?" Such men will find their abode in Hell - What an evil destination! Except the weak ones among men, women and children who cannot devise a plan, nor are they able to direct their way. For these there is hope that Allâh will forgive them, and Allâh is Ever Oft Pardoning, Oft-Forgiving. (An-Nisa 4:97-99)

http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=4&tid=12067


Allah knows best

[Abuz Zubair]

So which neighbourhood are you expecting the 1.3 million Muslims to go to?

[Abuz Zubair]

To be honest... I can't believe I am actually having this discussion... What can you say to someone who suggests that people in their millions should get up and leave! This is crazy! Please listen to Yasir Qadhi's lecture, if you trust and respect him more!

[1mran]

So which neighbourhood are you expecting the 1.3 million Muslims to go to?

again, no1 is saying EVERYONE MUST leave, just the weak and oppressed.

subhanallah, is that wrong?

Allah knows best

insha'Allah i will listen to the lecture.

--------------


ok i listened to it.

even he said the Muslims left mekkah when they were being oppressed.

if muslims are being slaughtered and oppressed in palestine, and asking the weak to leave to a place that they can practsie islam, is that wrong?

i never said anything about muslims making hijra from uk or other places. im refering to those being oppressed.

please read the verse i quoted above and read teh Tafsir,

And Allah knows best

[Abuz Zubair]

But brother, the irony is that the weak and the oppressed form the majority in nearly ALL the minorities. In the UK the vast majority of Muslims are working class, and it is the weak and oppressed that are excused by Allah from making hijra, anyway.

Again, listen to the lecture by Yasir Qadhi.

[Umm Ahmed]

If you speak to any older palastinian roaming the east and west about their families leaving the Jews their land, they all say they regret doing so , all have their big door key to their old home framed upon the wall.

Palastine has Islaams third holiest place, no one should leave that to anyone else but the muslims.

[1mran]

If you speak to any older palastinian roaming the east and west about their families leaving the Jews their land, they all say they regret doing so , all have their big door key to their old home framed upon the wall.

Palastine has Islaams third holiest place, no one should leave that to anyone else but the muslims.


but land is not more important thn human life

evidence of this is that the Muslims left Makkah, left Makkah (for medinah and abyssinia)

as for the arguement about older palestinians, you can find equally many saying the opposite, especially thsoe who's families have been slaughtered....

Allah knows best

[1mran]

But brother, the irony is that the weak and the oppressed form the majority in nearly ALL the minorities. In the UK the vast majority of Muslims are working class, and it is the weak and oppressed that are excused by Allah from making hijra, anyway.

Again, listen to the lecture by Yasir Qadhi.

weak in the ayat is refering those who dont have the ABILITY to do hijra.

when i said weak, i ment those being oppressed and unable to practise ther deen. but ofcourse you have to have the ability to do hijra. [refer to the tafsir of the ayat in the link]

Allah knows best

[Abuz Zubair]

Dear brother,

listen to the whole lecture... or at least, read this thread here:
http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=3036

It is better to continue from where one left off instead of going through the same cycle.

[S1ave0fA11ah]

To be honest... I can't believe I am actually having this discussion... What can you say to someone who suggests that people in their millions should get up and leave! This is crazy! Please listen to Yasir Qadhi's lecture, if you trust and respect him more!

I say: stick with the elders in ilm - those known for years of seeking ilm; the kibar ulema and others. Look 1mran - on one hand you are being told:

This is why many of our 'elders' in the UK, when they couldn't find practical solutions to our problems, they became modernists or Sufis

and on the next hand you are being given links to Yasir Qadhi. With all due respect YQ is not an alim of the likes of Sh. Al-Albani (rahimuallah) or many others. I don't say he doesn't have a role or position but I say :

Before the hour will appear the ruwaiybidah --- STICK TO THE ELDERS.

Abuz Zubair - you can't say YQ is an elder so using his lecture equates to nothing. He might have some truth with him.

I think the bottom line is as follows:

(1) Hijrah is fard on those who need to
(2) It is very difficult to achieve in the current world - not impossible
(3) It is pathetic to entertain the DOUBT that whole communities would do it when we see that we have Muslims loving the kuffar ways/life, not praying, commiting major shirk etc.

All I get from you AZ is negativity about the topic - NOTHING POSITIVE (in the sense that you say it should be done - SEE QUESTION BELOW). Let me ask you one question please:

Do you think that SOME people might be able to make hijrah today e.g. someone very wealthy with say dual-nationality. He currently lives in a skin-head area (he never knew before moving there) and could go back to Makkah where he was born. Please no politics - just YES/NO would suffice (won't take you long - just type 'Y' or 'N' if you prefer) - no links to e-books, essays or huge internet forums/blogs. Jazak Allah Khairan.

Hopefully you will see - after answering the above question - that Hijrah does not mean 1/3 of the Ummah getting 'beamed up' and landing in the haramain. It has LEVELS. It has CONDITIONS. It can be moving from one land of kufr to another land of kufr where the is less evil. Everyone's situation in life is different - sometimes hugley.

STICK WITH THE MAJOR ULEMA.

1mran, Abu Z and I = common Muslims - noone special; I'm sure we all agree on that??

[Umm Ahmed]

but land is not more important thn human life

evidence of this is that the Muslims left Makkah, left Makkah (for medinah and abyssinia)

as for the arguement about older palestinians, you can find equally many saying the opposite, especially thsoe who's families have been slaughtered....

Allah knows best

It's not always about land for every palastinian, as I mentioned previously they should not leave due to Bait al muqadis being there, thats worth staying to protect , and thier intention should be that , I cant talk for the palastinians you know but I can only speak for the many that live here that I know , and make the long journey to jordan every year in cars ,to then go visit their relatives that have remained there in Palastine.

[1mran]

Jazaka'Allahu khayrn both of you.

br Abu Zubair,

the state the muslims are in uk are not good. i think the sheikh may not be aware of everything that goes on here. but this is probably because has not come across such things.

the youth, for eg, are in such a bad state. they are either losing their religion or devianting. yes we have some "salafi" msulims, but very few.

i have worked with many young people and i have seen the severity of the problem in this country.

if i told you some of them, maybe u would see where i am comming from,

but regardless, i understand hijra is a big topic,

and to be honest, each person's case may differnt....

so i guess each imam can have their own opinion..


and hey! differencing is a mercy, right?

and Allah knows best

[Abuz Zubair]

This is what I realy hate about a typical Salaf mentality.

Yes, Yasir Qadhi is nobody in comparison to grand scholars in Saudi or Pak... But who the heck on earth are you?! What gives you the authority to dismiss Yasir Qadhi or anyone else who may have studied with the grand scholars you are discussing?!

I asked you to quote to me ONE grand scholar who said that the Muslim minorities around the world should migrate?! rather, it is YOU who is jumping the gun here under the pretext of 'following the elders' and making fatwa... and obliging all those who can to leave!

Know your worth and those who you are belittling before you speak on a topic.

What's ridiculous is that you are advising everyone to stick to the elders... which elder have you been sticking to? Which elder have you ever studied with?! Isn't this the very muqallid attitude you criticise the Hanafis for?

And if you really want to go by personalities, then I can easily write a paper on this silly issue, getting approved by Sh Haytham and forwarded by Sh Abdullah b. 'Aqil. Would that silence you?!

I am really sick of this typical salafi mentality that neither knows fiqh, nor reality.

The least you're supposed to have is a bit of fear of Allah before you pass fatwas.

[1mran]

It's not always about land for every palastinian, as I mentioned previously they should not leave due to Bait al muqadis being there, thats worth staying to protect , and there intention should be that , I cant talk for the palastinians you know but I can only speak for the many that live here and make the long journey to jordan every year in cars ,to then go visit their relatives that have remained there.


like i said, its just a piece of Land,

as for Bait ul Maqdis, it is not us that protect it, its Allah!

do u recall the story of the elephant?

we shouldnt sacrifice our lives for buildings.

even if they destroy masjid ul aqsa, we can rebuild it! its not the builing thats sacred, its the land/area (as explained by imam anwar al-awlaki, anyway)

and like i said, the ones being killed and being oppressed should go. the ones strng and able to practise their deen can stay.

this is what the Messenegr of Allah (peace be upon him) did with the muslims, and i will follow his way, insha'Allah

and Allah knows best

[Abuz Zubair]

Dear brother Imran (the above post was not addressed to you)

Please, READ the other thread before responding further... once you have read it, then we canot build upon that.

[suhail]

Assalaam o Alykum,

Brothers and sisters who are talking about migration of indian muslims have you talked to muslims who are living in india that would they migrate. I am sure most of them would reject it. I am from india too and just came back from a recent trip there.

With the introduction of western culture thru media it is very difficult to discern who is who. Muslims women are marrying hindu men and vice versa. These things are happening more and more as people are ignorant and they dont understand things. Even RSS and VHP like organization are planning these kind of marriages by getting ignorant muslim youngsters into there web.

Still people in india will not leave because where will they go. Have you not read the bloodshed when pakistan was made. What about the social problems still lingering in pakistan because of all that population exchange. What about those biharis who are refugees neither indian nor pakis. It isnt that easy to just pack your bag and leave.

Now muslims in india are understanding a little bit by making large muslim comunities but still they are far away from getting the whole picture. This is the problem with most of the minority muslim communities.

So things are not just black and white here. It is more complex then just packing your bags and leaving.

Regarding the cowardice of those muslims then it isnt easy when you are faced with death. I have seen riots even fought in few to save myself and i am telling you it aint pretty. I dont blame those muslims who ran away because that is the first thought that come to your mind when you exchange blows with 100s of mushriks with swords coming at you. So pray for them and the muslims in india that Allah shower his mercy on them and make them understand the precarious situation in india.

Jazakallah Khair
Suhail

[1mran]

Dear brother Imran (the above post was not addressed to you)

Please, READ the other thread before responding further... once you have read it, then we canot build upon that.

Insha'Allah

Jazaka'Allahu khayrn,

remember, we all here to learn. im just relating to you what others have said, like Bilal philips and Imam Anwar al-Awlaki, who i told you i listen alot to. so insha'Allah will have a look at the other respective side.

[1mran]

Assalaam o Alykum,

Brothers and sisters who are talking about migration of indian muslims have you talked to muslims who are living in india that would they migrate. I am sure most of them would reject it. I am from india too and just came back from a recent trip there.

Jazakallah Khair
Suhail

Yes, i have spoken to many muslims in uk, usa and asian countries who do feel the need to leave, mostly because of the bad experience they have had (and dont want their family to go thru the same)

Allah knows best

[Abuz Zubair]

Thank you Suhail... But this is what really repels people from the Salafi Dawah... impracticality to the max.

Many of these brothers are intellectually shallow. Have absolutely NO Shara'i knowledge. They have NEVER studied under any of the elder scholars they like to go and on and on about... And those who have studied with the scholars are obviously brushed aside because they do not agree with their shallowness. They have absolutely no regard for fiqh... they are not sensible enough to know what reality they are living in and how Islam deals with their problems.

This is why, you do not turn to a Salaf for Islamic solution to housing problems, financing, social sciences, and even theology which Ibn Taymiyya championed. Most of them haven't even read IT's works on theology, and even if they did, they wouldn't have a clue WHAT he's talking about. In fact, if they were given one of his works without his name on it. They would say: What's the philosophy business?! We do not read any of this! Just Quran and Sunnah, brother! Not knowing that the brutal comment they are passing, is actually on IT's book called al-Tadmurriyya...

And of course, they love to live in their own bubble.

Wake up, guys! Before you too, like your elders who spearheaded the Salafi Dawah in the UK, become modernists on Sufi sympathisers.

Salafiyya is not zeal. It is not based on a number of handfull of scholars that can be counted on one hand. It is not a country club.

It is an entire ministry of thought, fiqh, usul, theology, etc, etc... The layman who has NONE of this has no share in it, and should stop being a representative of Salafiyya.

[Umm Ahmed]

like i said, its just a piece of Land,

as for Bait ul Maqdis, it is not us that protect it, its Allah!

do u recall the story of the elephant?

we shouldnt sacrifice our lives for buildings.

even if they destroy masjid ul aqsa, we can rebuild it! its not the builing thats sacred, its the land/area (as explained by imam anwar al-awlaki, anyway)

and like i said, the ones being killed and being oppressed should go. the ones strng and able to practise their deen can stay.

this is what the Messenegr of Allah (peace be upon him) did with the muslims, and i will follow his way, insha'Allah

and Allah knows best

I dont agree with your opinion on that sorry .

[Abuz Zubair]

Yes, i have spoken to many muslims in uk, usa and asian countries who do feel the need to leave, mostly because of the bad experience they have had (and dont want their family to go thru the same)

Allah knows best
Yes... typical salafi mentality... before they were abused on the streets, they were living in the bubble... Now that their bubble is popped, they want to look to other Muslim countries where they can live in peace, and a new bubble.

[suhail]

Assalaam Alykum,

If they feel bad brother then they should leave but you cant pass a fatwa for a entire community to pack there bags and leave. If a individual feels he will be free to practice his religion better somewhere else then its upto him but you passing a fatwa on the whole indian or western community is not right.

Jazakallah khair
Suhail

[1mran]

Yes... typical salafi mentality... before they were abused on the streets, they were living in the bubble... Now that their bubble is popped, they want to look to other Muslim countries where they can live in peace, and a new bubble.

this is what they were saying, not me!

and no, they arent salafi. infact they are far from that.

and some have come back to their deen, because ther parents were not practising, so they have seen the need for an islamic environment. i dont see anything wrong with that..

Allah knows best

[1mran]

Assalaam Alykum,

If they feel bad brother then they should leave but you cant pass a fatwa for a entire community to pack there bags and leave. If a individual feels he will be free to practice his religion better somewhere else then its upto him but you passing a fatwa on the whole indian or western community is not right.

Jazakallah khair
Suhail


i never did....

and Allah knows best

[1mran]

I dont agree with your opinion on that sorry .


not my opinion,. its the opinion of some Ulema. i dont have an opinion. im not some1 with enough knowledge to giive opinions..

and Allah knows best

[Abuz Zubair]

I cannot believe there are people in this thread who actually support the idea that Palestinians should vacate Palestine for the Zionists!

This is completely crazy!

[1mran]

I cannot believe there are people in this thread who actually support the idea that Palestinians should vacate Palestine for the Zionists!

This is completely crazy!

not all of them, just the ones who are being oppressed so much that they are being killed or cant practise their religion.

just like how the weak muslims went to abysinia.

do u think thats wrong? im asking for your honest opinion, im not trying to be rude, i just want to understand insha'Allah

[Abuz Zubair]

not all of them, just the ones who are being oppressed so much that they are being killed or cant practise their religion.

just like how the weak muslims went to abysinia.

do u think thats wrong? im asking for your honest opinion, im not trying to be rude, i just want to understand insha'Allah
That's the entire Palestinian Population, nearly! Don't you read the news?! :D

[Abuz Zubair]

And bro... its not just Palestine... But also minorities under Buddhist or communist regimes like China, Burma and Thailand... These guys are the worst off.

And getting them to leave:

a) is not practical, and
b) Buddhists will be well pleased with the last remnants of Islam leaving their country.

Moreover, telling the practising brothers to leave such minorities so disastrous beyond words! Because it is these practising brothers who are supposed to be the vanguards of these communities! If these strong people are taken away from all these minorities, then we might as well say bye bye to ONE THIRD of the Ummah, because then they would be easily assimilated in the local population...

The issue is SO COMPLEX, which is precisely why it is difficult for a Salafi mind to comprehend!

[1mran]

And bro... its not just Palestine... But also minorities under Buddhist or communist regimes like China, Burma and Thailand... These guys are the worst off.

And getting them to leave:

a) is not practical, and
b) Buddhists will be well pleased with the last remnants of Islam leaving their country.

Moreover, telling the practising brothers to leave such minorities so disastrous beyond words! Because it is these practising brothers who are supposed to be the vanguards of these communities! If these strong people are taken away from all these minorities, then we might as well say bye bye to ONE THIRD of the Ummah, because then they would be easily assimilated in the local population...

The issue is SO COMPLEX, which is precisely why it is difficult for a Salafi mind to comprehend!


br,

im talking abt those who are oppressed and cant practice there deen.

if the br is practising and even if he is the only one, then he doesnt necessarily have to leave! because he has an obligation of Da'wah thn, right?

but i see what ur saying...

i think (and this is my opinion - which is not worth anything), instead of focusing on "if they should leave or how many should leave", we should focus on sorting the ummah out and uniting so that we can help them and protect them, expecially the palestinians, we need to help them take their land back


Nu'man b. Bashir reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: “The similitude of believers in regard to mutual love, affection, fellow-feeling is that of one body; when any limb of it aches, the whole body aches, because of sleeplessness and fever.” [Sahih Muslim, Book 032, Number 6258]

we shouold be an ummah that is loved by the good people and hated by shaytan and his armies.

not an ummah that crawls into a hall and tells others to join us!

and Allah knows best

[1mran]

That's the entire Palestinian Population, nearly!


thats true :(

[juwairiyah]

Assalamo'alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh

I'd like to ask those asians who left their relatives behind how many of them are willing to settle down in India ----(less kufr place) ?
With all due respect bros and srs u all are blaming the indians for not making hijrah then did any one ever enlighten these illiterate ppl about the deen.Allah wil ask u abt this also not only hijra.. SO many ppl live here below poverty line and only some states in south india are well to do mashaAllah otherwise muslims a sa whole in India are poor .These goes for Pakistan and Bangladesh too.

[1mran]

Assalamo'alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh

I'd like to ask those asians who left their relatives behind how many of them are willing to settle down in India ----(less kufr place) ?
With all due respect bros and srs u all are blaming the indians for not making hijrah then did any one ever enlighten these illiterate ppl about the deen.Allah wil ask u abt this also not only hijra.. SO many ppl live here below poverty line and only some states in south india are well to do mashaAllah otherwise muslims a sa whole in India are poor .These goes for Pakistan and Bangladesh too.

sister no1 is blamming the indians or anyone else for nt making hijra.

you are absolutely right tho. we need muslims to remember their families and go help them, not only financially, but also teach them the deen. we have many missionaries who are in full force trying to convert these poor muslims, often with bribery. its so sad.

we should all remember:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "A Muslim is a brother of another Muslim, so he should not oppress him, nor should he hand him over to an oppressor. Whoever fulfilled the needs of his brother, Allah will fulfill his needs; whoever brought his (Muslim) brother out of a discomfort, Allah will bring him out of the discomforts of the Day of Resurrection, and whoever screened a Muslim, Allah will screen him on the Day of Resurrection . " [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 43, Number 622 and Volume 9, Book 85, Number 83; Sahih Muslim, Book 032, Number 6250]



Allah knows best

[suhail]

Assalaam Alykum

What i have seen in India is that muslims lack a lot of organizations. There are very few social organizations by muslims which are working for the betterment of muslims. There are only few people who try to create kind of infrastructure that would nurture the muslim population like schools, hospitals etc. But those also go down because of in fighting. Mostly the social work is done by either mordernists or NGOs. The deobandis are more involved in there tablighi work and barelvis are involved with biryanis. The salafis are not even seen , i think there is one mosque in my town where there are some salafis. So social work is non existent. There are only a handful of schools with islamic curriculum which are going down because of lack of funds etc. This makes the new generation more and more westernized or indianized. Secondly muslims have only few local leaders who think about the community as a whole and work for them. It is these people you need to work with. They work tirelessly and know how to get the work done. They are the pillars of those communities.

When you talk about migration of these muslims it is unfathomable. There will be a need for infrastructure to support such a vast population exchange which is non existent. Pakistan after all these years have not created a very good infrastructure so talking about pouring huge indian muslim population in there is a recipie for disaster. Even india with all the boom is still having problems with hospitals, schools and other infrastructure.

We need to strengthen these communities with what we can do. The issue is not packing the bags , the issue is being able to stand with these communities and supporting its base so that they can become strong. These huge communities cant be moved. They will either decay and perish or will become strong with support. It is upto us to make a difference not by talk but by helping them with whatever way we can.

Jazakallah Khair
Suhail

[S1ave0fA11ah]

And bro... its not just Palestine... But also minorities under Buddhist or communist regimes like China, Burma and Thailand... These guys are the worst off.

And getting them to leave:

a) is not practical, and
b) Buddhists will be well pleased with the last remnants of Islam leaving their country.

Moreover, telling the practising brothers to leave such minorities so disastrous beyond words! Because it is these practising brothers who are supposed to be the vanguards of these communities! If these strong people are taken away from all these minorities, then we might as well say bye bye to ONE THIRD of the Ummah, because then they would be easily assimilated in the local population...

The issue is SO COMPLEX, which is precisely why it is difficult for a Salafi mind to comprehend!


Can I ask what you are then?. Salafi?.

[Abuz Zubair]

It is precisely for this type of mentality associated with the majority of the Salafis that I hate considering myself a Salafi, or belonging to some sort a country club. What you regard to be Salafiyya, then definitely I am not that type of Salafi, and you can plaster that all over the internet world.

[Abuz Zubair]

This is the sort of thing I was referring to when I wrote the following in my post (http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?p=18985):

Now, a lot has happened since a decade. Those old leaders of Salafiyya were introduced to others from the modernists or Sufis who were academically more qualified, had more knowledge of the workings of Sharia, and most importantly, they were more concerned with the application of their academic knowledge in the real world. In light of this, our Salafi leaders began to feel inferior and eventually woke up to the stagnation of the entire Salafi movement. But instead of catching up on what they have missed, they reacted by going to the other extreme. So when previously they would warn against JIMAS, now they would promote TJ Winters and Hanson. Although the general argument of co-operation they use is correct, what they are guilty of is misapplication. They also are not in a position to decide what serves the maslaha and what serves the mafsada. This resulted in people like Tariq Ramadan and Shabir Ali being invited to JIMAS. Although, there is nothing unusual about people making mistakes, what makes things worse is when they shut all the doors for a fruitful dialogue, and begin to view all criticism as a remnant of SP manhaj.

But these people have now gone their way and have been replaced by new brothers who have studied the Sharia, either with Mashaykh or universities, they understand the rich tradition of fiqh in our civilisation, the concept of difference of opinion, and they are more principled than the older generation, such that they know who to co-operate with, on what, how to weigh up masalih and mafasid, where differences are allowed, where they are not allowed, and are now more concerned about the practical aspects of Salafiyya in the West within the framework Islamic legal system.

The followers are similarly divided into two camps. The old camp feel that they are left orphaned so they; a) defect to the Sufis or the modernists, b) they feel hopeless about the situation and plan to make hijra (which ironically, they had been doing for the last decade, anyway!), c) just do nothing, as in the beginning they did nothing and just remain at the bottom of the social ladder as usual, d) go wherever their leaders go. So if one day they view Mr. Ramadan in good light, their followers are seen defending him everywhere, and when tomorrow Mr. Ramadan is brushed aside by their leaders, they are also seen retracting from their support for him.

The new camp is more hopeful. These are MOSTLY the new recruits of Salafiyya, young graduates, open-minded. They do not have this party mentality. They think outside the box. They have more right to be described as ideologically Salafis than the former generation, who were mostly only emotionally or zealously Salafis while lacking in ideology and principles. While for the older generation, Ibn baz, Ibn Uthaymin and al-Albani would have the final word on any issue, the new generation thinks wider and looks across the party lines for the truth, and pays more attention to what is being said, and not who says it. It is this new generation that is more practical about Sharia than the older generation, but I think post 9/11 world has a lot to do with it. Before that we were all living in a bubble. Now we are required to be more assertive about our identity and sharper about our ideology.

[justabro]

As a matter of convenience, the whole of Sh. Yasir's lecture can be found in one place here:

http://muslimmatters.org/2007/04/30/muslims-in-the-west-where-are-we-going-yasir-qadhi-in-london/

[gag order]

is the state of gujrat the only state where there is violence against muslims?
the reason i ask is that i have read somewhere that this state is a hotbed of hindu fundamentalism (unlike other comapritively tolerant areas) and always has been, even before the partition in 47.

if this is the case then the muslims of gujrat missed the boat when they were perhaps fewer in number. at the time, pakistan was touted as a state for muslims and many undertook the migration when the borders were drawn up.

[Abuz Zubair]

Nope... Gujrat isn't the only state... I am going to do a series on Muslim minorities in the world and we'll touch upon India in detail, inshaaAllah.

Hopefully, this would open up the minds of some Salafi Muslims and prevent them from fantasising about world problems and solutions.

[suhail]

Assalaam Alykum

Brother gag order it is not so. People migrated from all part of india like punjab, delhi, gujarat, madhya pradesh, uttar pradesh and stuff. There were people from Bihar and Bengal who migrated to East Pakistan now Bangladesh.

A lot of people didnt migrate because they couldnt or they didnt wanted to leave. There were various reasons. There were a lot of bloodshed along the border areas so people from central india stayed were they were because traveling means risking there lives as well as there families.

Also there were Ulema who were not in support of partition and there was good amount of people who followed them. They said that making pakistan is not going to solve the problems indian muslims are facing. They were right or wrong isnt a concern anymore. But yes a lot of muslims were left in india. Also the muhajir debate that started in pakistan didnt help the people perception of moving to pakistan. Then the biharis who were left stranded after the 1971 war and creation of bangladesh gave a very negative impression of government of pakistan.

There are places were there are a tons of muslims like Uttar Pradesh, Hyderabad, Delhi, Gujarat. Regarding the increasing violenece against muslims then this is nothing new. It has been happening for a while now. Gujarat came to open because people died a lot otherwise there are riots every now and then. Also these kind of killing like in gujarat are those muslims who are either very less or are living within a hindu colony or village. You will scarcely see so much death where muslims are leaving in a large number.

Now after gujarat muslims are coming together as a large community rather then living scattared. But the lack of muslim institutions and poverty isnt helping muslims either. There are wide variety of problems with muslims in india as there are with other minority community. Inshallah muslims will stand upto challenge the situation and make a better future for themselves. We do need to play our part though. The days are gone when we can just be sitting and watching. The time for a more active role has come.

Jazakallah Khair
Suhail

[suhail]

Assalaam Alykum

Yes as brother Abu Zubair said Gujarat isnt the only incident. As i said in my last post these riots have become a daily event now. After 1989 organizations like RSS and VHP have become very aggressive and come to the fore front. Muslims are beseiged from all the sides.

There are no good leaders to look upto at national level who have muslims problems in mind. Religious leaders are either too corrupt or dont show up when the problem hit so much so that people dont even look upto them now. A normal muslim in india rarely goes to a mufti to ask questions about his daily chores. I have not seen one person in my immediate family and friends and know hows who go to muftis for asking what to do and what not to do? They are really cut off from the religious leaders. I wont blame them for that because the religious leaders have cut themseleves from the daily problems a muslim faces. They are only seen on the pulpit giving sermons but you wont see them doing social works, solving people problems or helping them. Inshallah things will change.

So this is one problem. Inshallah i will create a thread and highlight some more things i have seen and been through in India.

Jazakallah Khair
Suhail

[gag order]

Nope... Gujrat isn't the only state...

Yes as brother Abu Zubair said Gujarat isnt the only incident.

the reason why i ask this is becos the most recent and worst episodes of ethnic cleansing have been confined to areas in close proximity to each other, i refer to the incidents of 1992, 1993, and 2002.

People migrated from all part of india like punjab, delhi, gujarat, madhya pradesh, uttar pradesh and stuff

i can appreciate their difficulties, its just that the journey from gujrat to newly formed pakistan was the one of the shortest of all migration routes

Now after gujarat muslims are coming together as a large community rather then living scattared. But the lack of muslim institutions and poverty isnt helping muslims either.

perhaps in this lies the solution to prevent further incursions into muslim areas?

[suhail]

Assalaam Alykum,

Gujarat was highligted because the proportion of death was large. Northern india is more communal then compared to southern india because of various reasons. So you will see a lot of communal flare up in Northern india. Maharashtra and Gujarat are on the forefront with UP, MP and Delhi coming after.

These states have nice populous of muslims. I have relatives in Ahmedabad that is in gujarat and i have been there. There are huge number of muslims there.

Also the police isnt unbiased. It helps hindus with all there resources against muslims. So that also becomes a problem. In the recent gujarat riots they helped the rioters so much that there are now tons of cases in court against police officers for killing muslims intentionally in riots.

I dont think things are going to improve on this front for some time. Hindus are very aggressive community and now they are being brainwashed by the organizations like RSS and VHP. If muslims dont pay heed there will be another gujarat in making. May Allah have mercy on muslims.

Jazakallah Khair
Suhail

[Umm]

Inshallah i will create a thread and highlight some more things i have seen and been through in India.

Jazakallah Khair
Suhail

Jazakullah khairan. That will be v interesting insha'Allah.

[Abuz Zubair]

We in Britain have the opportunity which other minorities in the world do not have. That is to build a council of Muslim minorities across the world and highlight their suffering to the world. This is one thing we can do in Britain which other minorities cannot. And Indian Muslims aren't the only oppressed minority. All minorities are oppressed. Overall there are minorities living under communist, post-communist, budhist and Western democratic rules, and the best off amongst the minorities are the ones under Western Democratic countries. The worst of are those under Buddhist or communist regimes. We will see as we detail their suffering and mention the minorities, continent by continent, country by country, state by state.

[suhail]

My friend was living in Gujarat and working for an NGO whilst the riots took place. The scenes he tells me about are horrific and they make my blood boil. I do not think that the Indian Muslims should migrate, but rather I think they should fight for an independant state, basically another Pakistan. (There are more Muslims in India than in Pakistan.) Unfortunately, most Indian Muslims I have met are brainwashed and very patriotic towards India. Quite disgusting.

This is crazy idea. You should read the partition of india again. And how did it happen. Also read the history of hyderabad and what happened when they wanted to create another muslim country. Familiarize yourself with some history brother.

Indian muslims like other muslims in the world find attachement with there countries. It is just a human feeling. Its disgusting or whatever but it is there. Better to think of solutions and work on it. And yes creating a pakistan in india again isnt a option for now. Please keep the thread sane.

Jazakallah Khair
Suhail

[Abuz Zubair]

oh no... wait for the tantrum...

[muballigah]

I have read this thread and I am sorry to say but i can't believe people can come out with such utter bakwaas. Honestly, to the point where i had to make an account just to write here.
I'm going to briefly reply to some of the issues raised. (sorry if i'm not very coherant but i have to be quick as i should be revising!)

Umm dear, you have either been listening to too many brainwashed nationalist pakis, or have absolutely no idea of what goes on in the real world beyond the teatime debates of british muslims (or both).
Like a couple of people have mentioned there are two major points with the hijrah argument.

Important point for the day: Do NOT speak about hijrah unless you know something about indian history and the partition, advantages and disadvantages etc. if i was honestly truthful i would say i don't know whether it was good or bad. i'm a guji (oh horror! :)) and i was always anti partition, now i am not sure, but still lean towards that opinion (obviously we have the benefit of hindsight). Anyway, the point is, the majority of people who debate this have no understanding of history and are completely muta'assab (usually the pro partition), and to me this illustrates how shallow this debate has become (pro-partition =pro Islam = pro hijrah). If you read history, this is NOT true. As mentioned earlier there was a massive split in the ulema. If you don't know about this you cannot look at this issue objectively; heresay doesn't help, whicever position you take.

Anyway, back to the "why didn't they do hijrah". Firstly, why on earth should we? It's our land. Isn't that exactly what the extremist hindus say and want? secondly, more importantly probably, where on earth do we go? Umm, your suggestions are so completely unrealistic i didn't know if you were
being serious. Everyone make hijrah to Pakistan or england?!??

Nobody felt safe living among the hindus - this is a big myth. Gujarat has a history of riots, you can apply this elsewhere in india maybe, but not for the majority of people in Gujarat. Whoever told you that probably knows very little about indian muslims. This is just the usual excuse to make ourselves feel better for not doing anything.

People do have a problem with living in areas where they don't feel safe. That's why there are muslim ghettos all over gujarat, total segregation in most villages, which gets worse every time there's any trouble. However, unlike our priveleged selves, the majority of Indians live in POVERTY. The aim of their lives is to get food on the table, to send their kids to school, just to live. Things that we don't have to think about.

A really really important reminder to everyone - can we stop talking about things we know nothing about?? I felt so angry reading this thread because i remember all the people who struggle to pass a day, people who are scarred for life physicially, mentally, and all we can do is sit here and come out with amazing suggestions like: they should've made hijrah instead of trusting the hindus. At least if we can criticise, let's make it constructive, and not just an excuse to make ourselves feel better for doing nothing.

Also, does it matter if some oppressed people are bohras or rafidis or sufis or christians or hindus or jews??? We are humans. What happened is disgusting to anyone. How low will the muslimeen stoop that now we cannot even stand up for justice and fight injustice wherever it is committed, we only care if it happens to be someone that follows our local shaykh and his latest fatwa. wAllahul musta'aan.

Also can we please stop generalising!! It is not that common to see muslims married to hindus. actually this is something that the hindu terrorists in VHP, RSS abhorr and use as propaganda (muslim men running away with our girls). I can tell you about my very middle class relatives in gujarat but they are not representative of the normal people at all. One of my cousins, may Allah guide us all, thought the genocide started because muslims were supporting pakistan in cricket; this is a dentistry student!!! So no doubt there are stupid muslims in india, just like everyone else, but how can we speak about millions of people from the few we know. I wouldn't expect many of you to know any dalits or adivasis, or any of the muslims that get by through begging, so who on earth are we to speak about them?

The guji muslim disapora in britian cannot be used to analyse real gujarati muslims. Here they are relatively well to do etc. which is not true for there. Also, they actually come from parts of gujarat not very much affected by the genocide. i believe this was delieberately planned. The people that suffered were ensured to have nobody to speak up for them; and it worked. If i was to blame anyone, i would blame the guji muslim community in Britian who have been the most useless bunch of ghayrahless good-for-nothing except making-money-and-building-bigger-mosques wimps the world contains; in this i include all the wonderful ulema with their lovely useless ijazahs, may Allah protect us.

Contrary to what seems to be implied in this thread, the solution is actually to work together with the moderate hindus, secularists, dalits, christians and other minorities. I strongly believe that anyone that knows anything about indian muslims, their history, and current politics can think of no other realistic solution. You can't make an autonomous state within india, which planet are we living on people???

The problem we have in India is not something created overnight. What i find odd is the people who advocate living completely separately. For safety reasons i can understand yes, but if you remember this problem started properly when the brits left. Just like the arab jews were fine with he muslims until israel happened. Our deen is not superior by shutting ourselves away in a corner. Our deen is superior by showing that we live to obey Allah and promote justice in the world, and when there is justice there will be peace. This is why indian muslims (especially) need to get involved in the movements working for humans rights, civil liberties, women's rights (really really important), eradicating poverty etc. Shouting for physicial resistance is all very well; unfortunately some people have to live it rather than just talk about it. I really want to see a proper analysis of the muslims in kerala (i feel honestly deprived for not speaking malayalam as there is such little info available). Yes i know it's not perfect, but what i have read about the movement there is so enocuraging, my idea of real muslims. People willing to give instead of just take, cooperation in social work, involving the muslimaat, blending the tradiaitional islamic sciences with a more modern education, ulema that actually live on the same planet as the people, not fearing to upset the status quo etc. - all the ingredients for a better future, inshaAllah.

Sorry it's long and i don't mean to offend anyone so please forgive me if i'm rude but i hate to see Muslims who don't think, just repeating what they have been told and looking to blame instead of find solutions,may Allah keep us all on the straight path.

jazakAllah kheyr shaheed666 - may Allah give you jannah, people like you remind me that not all the muslims have lost their minds yet.

Abuz Zubayr - i am very interested in your idea. can you clarify what you mean by building a council and how you will go about doing this?

[suhail]

Assalaam Alykum,

Nothing to get so angry about brother. People understand when they listen. It is just simple ignorance on there behalf and nothing else.

Also the cases of muslims women marrying in hindu community is increasing and media is highlighting this with a smile on there face. Even there are advertisements on TV channels supporting this. So yes the majority is not doing it but there is trend.

Muslims who make there ghettos is because of the experience they got. Have you read what happened in Bhopal to muslims who were leaving with there hindu neighbors in BHEL. The were massacared infront of those neighbors who couldnt do one thing to protect them. So there is a reason to form large muslim communities and leaving together. Your life is more important then showing off your religion. I leave in Indore which is a very communal town and if you are not living in a place where there is a large concentration of muslims you will always feel afraid.

As i said the leadership for muslims in India is non existent. Regarding working with hindus who are moderates and other people yes we can work with them on all the good things why not. Actually if you see moderate hindus did came out and pointed the finger at Modi etc.

The problem is just not one sided it has many faces. Lot of problems are there for muslim community to tackle in india.

But yeah indian muslims are there to stay and they need to work hard to solve the problems which will be increasing as day passes.

Jazakallah khair
Suhail

[suhail]

Also regarding kerela yes there the muslim community is very good. One thing to remember is that northern india is not like southern india. People in north are more agressive and violent by nature. Also the illiteratacy in northern indian states in nothing compared to south. Kerela is 100% literate while nothern india is a shame on india for literacy rate. Poverty level is higher in northern india too. So it is something much bigger that needs to be addressed.

Jazakallah Khair
Suhail

[suhail]

I agree that the Muslims in India should make Hijrah to those parts of India in which the Muslims are stronger. They should consolidate themselves in those places and then wage a war of independance when they have done that.

One might say that this is "silly" but aren't the Sikhs doing the exact same thing? The Tamils? And others?

The minimum that this does is strike fear into the hearts of the Indian government so that they will then come down and wish to negotiate peace terms.

LOL brother Jaysh you should really stop posting about things you do not know. Sikhs arent doing the exact same thing. They started a revolt and were crushed like a fly. There are no sikhs revolting now. Tamils never revolted they were angry because india intervened in Srilanka and north indians wanted to force hindi down there throat but there was no armed revolt of the sort you are thinking.

Jazakallah Khair
Suhail

[Abuz Zubair]

Abuz Zubayr - i am very interested in your idea. can you clarify what you mean by building a council and how you will go about doing this?

First of all, JK for your comments. I always take interest in minorities their problems and solutions.

My idea is this:

A 3rd of the Ummah lives in non-Muslim countries as minorities, and that's more than 600 million souls. All minorities in the world are oppressed in their own ways, yet some minorities are better off than others. Usually, the minorities living under Western secular democracies are a lot better off than those living under post-communist or Buddhist rule.

All the minorities face the danger of assimiilation and losing their religion, identity and culture. The loss of these minorities means the loss of a 3rd of the Ummah. Therefore the entire Ummah is responsible for protecting a 3rd of itself from fading away. However, the responsibility of self-preservation lies with the minorities first, and then the rest of the Ummah. If we do not cater for our own interests, we cannot expect the Muslims in Saudi Arabia or other countries to cater for us.

Now, since we accept that there are some Muslim minorities much better off than others, such minorities have more of a responsibility towards other minorities given the freedoms they enjoy which others do not. Hence, these minorities, i.e. those living under Western democracies must extend a helping hand to the rest of the world's Muslim minorities and bring their causes and concerns to the fore.

One way in which this can be achieved is by forming an official body, such as a council of world Muslim minorities where representatives from the various states of India, China, Burma, Thailand, former Soviet states, South Africa and other African countries, South America, North America, Eastern and Western Europe, come together to form a council, build ties with each other, share experiences, problems and solutions, and raise each others' political, social and financial concerns and make them into a global issue.

Although, the most elementary and important stage of it all, I think, is for the minorities to connect, this must also be followed up by the second stage, which is for the council to reach out to the world Muslim community, i.e. Muslim majority countries and ask them to help the various minorities in their political, social and financial causes.

Yes, I realise that no one would be willing to extend a helping hand for free, so I already expect that there will be give and take. We have wealthy Muslim business men in all minorities.

[knowrass]

abuz zubair, that idea is excellent! subhaan Allaah... how do we get started? i mean, can laymen work for this or is it something that only scholars can work for?! you are right about the businessmen (especially here in the uk!), but again how do we all start?

[Abuz Zubair]

That's just one idea, dear bro.. and I am sure people will find many flaws with it... we need to a) understand deeply our situation, our problems and then b) do a bit of brainstorming for practical steps to take to solve the problems.

Yes, don't wait for the scholars to lead you in this. Scholars are scholars, not social scientists, and unfortunately, most usually they are not activists, nor do they have managerial skills required to lead a project. They are still, nevertheless, needed as guides with respect to legal issues. All organisations no matter what the purpose, should have a legal department where the scholars keep the organisation in line with the law.

[Umm]

A very good