Lazy Talibul Ilm and Lazy Scholars

[asharee_salafi]

Just a thought,

Why is it, when it comes to cults and their likes, some scholars da'ees just laugh them off and ridicule them, thinking that their refutation is not needed amongst the common masses.

It is for this reason that some of our youth go to extremes and jojn cult groups and cult figures, because our lazy scholars and lazy talibul ilm can not show any depth to their knowledge of the deen.

So why teh shock and surprise when we find the youth joining these cults and their extremes.

Our Ulema and talibul ilm should stop being lazy.

No wonder we have such a bad impression in the UK by the non Muslims.

Ask todays Ulema about the modernist fiqh principles used by tariq ramadhan etc, when they say fiqh issues are judgements of men and hence aren't proof, why have the ulema in the west not addrressed these issues?

What about scientism and evoluton...can one imagine any of our scholars to have knowldge on such issues?

This is why I am pessimistic over many salafis, because their depth seems not to beyond the asharite issues.

Alhamudullilah , we do have our own brother abuz zubair who dicusses many issues with the youth here, but he is only one da'ee, what about all the others?

[JayshAllah]

I felt this way with regards to the Sunni scholars lack of initiation when it came to refuting Shi'ism, which has resulted in many Sunnis converting to Shi'ism. I wouldn't call it being lazy but rather showing no initiation. As if it's not important.

[asharee_salafi]

Thats right,

they always dismiss it, and they sit their all smug with their knowldge, as if they are keeping things a secret, no wonder we find many muslims doing DIY takfeer, ijtihad etc

Because they aren;t seen as intelligent people, just people who look old and have grey hair, people think their silence is a wisdoom when its not, our talibul ilms should be proactive.

ur right on the shia issue....look how teh shia have preached in the west, can one say our ulema have replied, or do they sit here saying 'kafir kafir!' 'shirk shirk' without explaining their silly arguments

[JayshAllah]

Thats right,

they always dismiss it, and they sit their all smug with their knowldge, as if they are keeping things a secret, no wonder we find many muslims doing DIY takfeer, ijtihad etc

Because they aren;t seen as intelligent people, just people who look old and have grey hair, people think their silence is a wisdoom when its not, our talibul ilms should be proactive.

ur right on the shia issue....look how teh shia have preached in the west, can one say our ulema have replied, or do they sit here saying 'kafir kafir!' 'shirk shirk' without explaining their silly arguments

Brother, I think we should have a more respectful attitude towards our scholars. I think we should implore upon them to take a more active and leading role in such matters, instead of belittling them.

But I'm on board with you on the need for scholars to enter the arena and refute the deviant groups point-by-point. I think that the Sunnis are still living in the past and have not adapted to the Age of Information, in which one can read arguments and counter-arguments in thirty seconds thanks to Shaykh Yahoo bin Google.

I think that historically the mainstream Muslim scholars took the stance that we should just prohibit all talk about deviant sects and to forbid debating with them. This worked back then when you could simply jail deviants. Back then, the deviants were in the MINORITY and the Sunni mainstream was in the majority.

But we've entered a new era now, the Age of Information. We can no longer hide information from people. It's just impossible. Because the deviants are now in the MAJORITY. Muslims are being assailed left and right by various groups: the Orientalists, the Shia, the Quraniyyoon, etc.

I think that due to the new and changed circumstances, the Sunnis should no longer say that "we do not engage in polemics" because now there is no choice but to do that. Otherwise, if you don't engage in polemics, the only alternative is that the arguments AGAINST Islam will be spread so much but there will be no counter-arguments available.

It's time to break the vow of silence.

[Um Abdullah M.]

That is a bad generalization.

in this forum yes, we concentrate on Ash'aris, but there are other forums where you might find more concentration on shia or other groups.

I am assuming your are talking about shaikhs who do dawah in English.
Because in Arabic websites and forums, Salafis work on all sides, especialy on shia, there are like 10 websites or maybe evne more just to expose and refute shia alone.
there are less ones refuting sufis but there are some (still speaking about Arabic sites), also some refuting athiests, christians (quite a few of them), submitters (not as much as other groups), Ahbash and other groups.

But we lack many things in the English websites.
We are trying to work on it, but we can't put the burden on a few people, some refute Ash'aris, others refute sufis, and other refute shia and other groups.

like Abuz Zubair is trying to work on brothers in topics on jihad, sufis and Ash'aris, and brother JayshAllah is working on shia, I try to work on both sufis and Ash'aris, and would like to also put some refutations against shia insha Allah, nepalee on HT, and others on other groups.

we need to pull some of the brothers who know both Arabic and English from Arabic sites to work in the English sites, masha Allah we have many working in Arabic sites, but we need it in the English side, and in other languages.

Some shaikhs in west are very busy teaching in Islamic univeristies, teachign correct aqeedah, most of their time taken up with that and their families, actaully some don't even have very much time with their families because of being so busy teaching and traveling giving lectures.

There is a lot of burden on our shaikhs.

while you see deviant sects like sufis and shia putting all their concentration on Salafis, so they just worry about one group which is us, while we work on many groups.

So for now, let us do our job, work together, and if we need help we contact the shaikhs and ask them questions we don't have answers for.

May Allah help us and grant us ikhlas.

[Yasir]

I do agree there is a lot of work to be done, but I think that sometimes the scholars realise that there is a problem: the more they raise their voices on an issue, the more the idea can become popular amongst the unsuspecting, common people.

At times, they may feel that with their silence, a deviant idea will die out quicker. The more they bring it out and discuss them on public platforms (acknowledging its existence and effect upon the people), the more the masses are exposed to the issue. (An example of this would be HT and the Punishment of the Grave issue... the refutations are all there. As a whole, from the Muslim Community (at least from what I've seen) no one seems to really takes HT seriously (particularly not in issues relating to the aqaa'id) therefore the more we go on about it, the more people want to know more about it from them. Yes if the fitnah is widespread, then it'd be justified to speak about it on a large scale, but if it's not - you can just ignore it, and more often than not, that in itself protects the people from it).

JayshAllaah, with regards to the Shia, there already are many detailed refutations readily available on them. To cite a present day example, Sh. Abu Muntasir has done a tremendous amount of work in this field.

Having said that, the level of each fitnah facing the ummah can be different, so the scholars would probably react accordingly, focusing on what would be in the best interests for all.

[JayshAllah]

JayshAllaah, with regards to the Shia, there already are many detailed refutations readily available on them. To cite a present day example, Sh. Abu Muntasir has done a tremendous amount of work in this field.


Shaykh Al-Balouchi? Yes brother but he writes in Farsi. The need is to write in English as this is now the universal language.

So yes, there might be many Arabic sites, but we need English ones.

[JayshAllah]

Honestly, sometimes non-scholars do a much better job with regards to refutations, such as Brother Abuz Zubair whose posts on Asharis which I found 1,000,000 times more helpful than the Salafi scholars's works.

[Yasir]

Shaykh Al-Balouchi? Yes brother but he writes in Farsi. The need is to write in English as this is now the universal language.His debates are available in Arabic.

Nevertheless, there's an abundance of material in Arabic. It needs skilled people to accurately translate it into several languages. The scholars can't be expected to produce good pieces of work, and then to focus their energies and resources into translating it themselves as well. Everyone has a role in the IslamicAwakening... they've just got to do their bit :).

[JayshAllah]

His debates are available in Arabic.


Insha-Allah once I learn Arabic, I will translate them. :D

[Abuz Zubair]

We need to understand that all of us have different things to worry about. Our views, our words, our actions, our thinking, all of it is a product of our different environments and challenges in life. Due to our different contexts, we have different priorities, and of course, we are after all human beings, and we're ought to have different specialities. Not everyone is good at theological issues. Not everyone is good at Fiqh. Not everyone is good at civil engineering or medicine. People have their own field of specialities. One cannot force someone to do what he thinks he should be doing. It's akin to Paki parents forcing their kids to do medicine.

Sh Ibn Baz and Ibn Uthaimin are most probably as knowledgeable is Sh al-Albani, but they all played an active role in their own environments. Sh al-Albani lived his life in a very hostile environment and spent nearly all his life defending the Sunna and hence his work is more in depth and deals with all the heretics head on and in a detail manner.

Ibn Baz's and Ibn Uthaimin's writings on theology might not be as convincing as Sh al-Albani's, because they never had to face the challenges he faced. They had other challenges, i.e. to educate the Bedouins in the country and to produce a generation of future preachers, jurists, judges, mujahidin, etc, etc...

The result? Sh al-Albani produced great works but hardly any students. Ibn Baz and Ibn Uthaimin didn't produce as many works but they made a generation.

Moreover, scholars have many different things to worry about, because
they often look at the society from a different perspective, and therefore have a panoramic view of the situation to decide what they should be spending their time on.

The only reason I am spending time on the forums is because this is the only way I can be affective at this present time. If I had a choice, I would rather play an active role in the real world than take up Ash'ari-bashing as a profession.

[abu_ibrahim]

If I had a choice, I would rather play an active role in the real world than take up Ash'ari-bashing as a profession.

10th Dan Black Belt in Ash'ari bashing.

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

i think in the english speaking domain, we should focus upon:


1-Learning the correct 'aqeedah

2-Learning the correct fiqh

3-Learning Arabic Language

and use this as our basis.

Also we need to tackle mainly the misconceptions of al-Islaam in the west (or whereever you are), this could be 'ash'arism, modernism, ht-ism, mpack-ism, etc

many of us need to really try and learn the arabic language as it seems there is much more there than in the english language.

It is like abuz-zubair mentoned, about the challenges and experiances we have.

but i will tell you what ticks me off, is when you have the following case:

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=1296126090432829344

and the guy you get to deal with this person is someone who doesn't tackle the issues at hand but would rather just go alongs the lines of "your a kafir forget you!"

This isn't the full debate so i don't know if it shoddy memritv editing but he makes a comment which makes him out to be side-steppng the issues. ALLAHU A'lam

I would like to see those 'ulemah who are capable of dealing with these modernists in denial to step up, innsha'ALLAH

sister asmaa could you post up the arabic forums where there are all these discussons going on? jazakALLAHU Khairan

[1mran]

these so called "bashing" of muslims by this woman is nothing

she thinks that if she can use big words, she can win an arguement.

its very easy to proove everything she has said wrong!

when u deal with such people, dont get upset or attack their beliefs. instead, look at the flaws of ther arguements and expose them. this way, you will weaken it and eventually, people will loose any belief in it. bt if u attack her, it will make it seem like she is right and we are being defensive.

i mean common, she thinks that have streets full of prostitues, having open zinha, having over crowded prisons and flawed human legal system, and destruction of a planet, and exploitation of women, and oppression of the weak, wide spread use of Riba, and increased theft, murder, rape, etc is ALL modern civilisation?

i find it very ignorant of a person to assume that we are in the "modern" or "more civilised" society. does she know anything of the people who came even before the arabs? were the people Allah destroyed, like the giants ie. the people of 'Ad, not more "civilised" or the pharoah, or the romans, all so called modern civilisations that crumbled in the evil and corruption they created.

as muslims, we are the best civilisation, and the fact is that we dont have a certain culture, because we have muslims from all kinds of cultures, and thats the beauty of islam.

Allah knows best

[1mran]

Sh Ibn Baz and Ibn Uthaimin are most probably as knowledgeable is Sh al-Albani, but they all played an active role in their own environments. Sh al-Albani lived his life in a very hostile environment and spent nearly all his life defending the Sunna and hence his work is more in depth and deals with all the heretics head on and in a detail manner.

Ibn Baz's and Ibn Uthaimin's writings on theology might not be as convincing as Sh al-Albani's, because they never had to face the challenges he faced. They had other challenges, i.e. to educate the Bedouins in the country and to produce a generation of future preachers, jurists, judges, mujahidin, etc, etc...

The result? Sh al-Albani produced great works but hardly any students. Ibn Baz and Ibn Uthaimin didn't produce as many works but they made a generation.

Moreover, scholars have many different things to worry about, because
they often look at the society from a different perspective, and therefore have a panoramic view of the situation to decide what they should be spending their time on.
.

Exactly!! thats what imam Anwar al-Awlaki explains in the story of the bull. he said we should realise that each person has a different part to play.

its like we are all bricks in a wall. we all have a place it in, and the stronger the bricks (in imaan and unity) the harder it will be for the Ummah to crumble.

[1mran]

Just a thought,

Why is it, when it comes to cults and their likes, some scholars da'ees just laugh them off and ridicule them, thinking that their refutation is not needed amongst the common masses.

It is for this reason that some of our youth go to extremes and jojn cult groups and cult figures, because our lazy scholars and lazy talibul ilm can not show any depth to their knowledge of the deen.

So why teh shock and surprise when we find the youth joining these cults and their extremes.

Our Ulema and talibul ilm should stop being lazy.

No wonder we have such a bad impression in the UK by the non Muslims.

Ask todays Ulema about the modernist fiqh principles used by tariq ramadhan etc, when they say fiqh issues are judgements of men and hence aren't proof, why have the ulema in the west not addrressed these issues?

What about scientism and evoluton...can one imagine any of our scholars to have knowldge on such issues?

This is why I am pessimistic over many salafis, because their depth seems not to beyond the asharite issues.

Alhamudullilah , we do have our own brother abuz zubair who dicusses many issues with the youth here, but he is only one da'ee, what about all the others?

Assalam alaikum,

we have many brothers and sisters who follow they of the Salaf and defend islam and also refute accusations

and i also know many ulema who have knowledge about issues like evolution.

in university, we had to debate with hindus, sikhs, atheists, evolutionists, christians, jews, etc

and in order for us to be effective, we did study their scriptures and alhamdulilah we found many flaws and many angles of giving da'wah.

but i do admit that we have very few of the youth that actually are focus on knowledge. many are starting to follow blindly and compromise alot...

Allah knows best

[1mran]

in thirty seconds thanks to Shaykh Yahoo bin Google.

.

LOL, i actually thought that was a real person at first :D

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

these so called "bashing" of muslims by this woman is nothing

she thinks that if she can use big words, she can win an arguement.

its very easy to proove everything she has said wrong!

when u deal with such people, dont get upset or attack their beliefs. instead, look at the flaws of ther arguements and expose them. this way, you will weaken it and eventually, people will loose any belief in it. bt if u attack her, it will make it seem like she is right and we are being defensive.

i mean common, she thinks that have streets full of prostitues, having open zinha, having over crowded prisons and flawed human legal system, and destruction of a planet, and exploitation of women, and oppression of the weak, wide spread use of Riba, and increased theft, murder, rape, etc is ALL modern civilisation?

i find it very ignorant of a person to assume that we are in the "modern" or "more civilised" society. does she know anything of the people who came even before the arabs? were the people Allah destroyed, like the giants ie. the people of 'Ad, not more "civilised" or the pharoah, or the romans, all so called modern civilisations that crumbled in the evil and corruption they created.

as muslims, we are the best civilisation, and the fact is that we dont have a certain culture, because we have muslims from all kinds of cultures, and thats the beauty of islam.

Allah knows best

i agree bro, but why the shaykh have to ask here about whether she a heretic or not?

I mean ask her simply: "do you get paided the same as your male collegues?or are you gonna start a movement for that as well?"

[Um Abdullah M.]

sister asmaa could you post up the arabic forums where there are all these discussons going on? jazakALLAHU Khairan

discussions on what exactly?

[JayshAllah]

LOL, i actually thought that was a real person at first :D

He is Shaykh al-Internet.

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

discussions on what exactly?

the things you mentioned like christians, evolutions etc.

jzk!

[Um Abdullah M.]

I think you mean by "evolution" the athiests?

here is the one for debating with athiests, mostly:
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/index.php?
some have links in their signatures of some sites of extremists, but you can benefit from many of their good posts refuting athiests and others.


refuting Christians:

http://elfarouk.net/

There is also the website of brother Wesam Abdullah, but the link doesn't work anymore, I dont' know what happened to it, but they have a page for him in Islamway under scholars pages in Arabic section.

[Um Abdullah M.]

Here is the page for lectures and debates by Wesam Abdullah in Islamway:
http://www.islamway.com/?iw_s=Scholar&iw_a=lessons&scholar_id=638

[asharee_salafi]

asmaa i wasn't talking of abuz zubair, im talking about salafis in general and I am talking about the western audience.

AZ is the only one who dealt with the asharee issue properly, but i find most salafees simplistic.

theres no need to refute evolution asmaa, as a student of knowldge you should know this! please see the evolution article at www.islamtoday.com

if one refutes evolution, we might aswell try and refute combustion theory, aswell as fluid dynamics.

[Skillganon]

One find salafees simplistic?

Can you elaborate?

Wierd.

[Abuz Zubair]

Ashari Salafi...

I cannot agree with you more that most of the Salafis are unfortunately intellectually extremely shallow. Suggesting that 1/3 of the Ummah should endeavour to vacate their countries for the native population, who want Muslims out anyway, cannot be described as anything but shallow.

But I never actually realised how shallow they were until I actually read some of the posts by those who ascribe themselves to Salafiyya.

Whoever said 'ignorance is bless' should go home and die.

[Ibn Adam]

Whoever said 'ignorance is bless' should go home and die.

wa fi riwaya: "Ignorance is bliss"

[Abuz Zubair]

wa fi riwaya: "Ignorance is bliss"
hahaha...

sorry, typo! :)

[1mran]

Ashari Salafi...

I cannot agree with you more that most of the Salafis are unfortunately intellectually extremely shallow. Suggesting that 1/3 of the Ummah should endeavour to vacate their countries for the native population, who want Muslims out anyway, cannot be described as anything but shallow.

But I never actually realised how shallow they were until I actually read some of the posts by those who ascribe themselves to Salafiyya.

Whoever said 'ignorance is bless' should go home and die.

SubhanAllah, we are sorry if we dont have your intellectual level brother,

we all make mistakes and we have come here to learn, not to be judged...

Allah knows best

[1mran]

asmaa i wasn't talking of abuz zubair, im talking about salafis in general and I am talking about the western audience.

AZ is the only one who dealt with the asharee issue properly, but i find most salafees simplistic.

theres no need to refute evolution asmaa, as a student of knowldge you should know this! please see the evolution article at www.islamtoday.com

if one refutes evolution, we might aswell try and refute combustion theory, aswell as fluid dynamics.

how can u compare theories in physics that have evidence, with some old theory that has no basis at all?

u think salafis are simple because we dont believe in a hypothetical theory?

do u know how many of such theories there are! infact there is one that says we can from one man and one woman. it has no evidence, but as muslims we already know the truth,. but still, it would be naive of us to follow the theory just because it goes with our deen.

[Abuz Zubair]

Dear brother,

This was not me being judgemental. This is only my observation. Unfortunately, the Salafis usually are not learned with respect to the deen nor dunya, but they are very judgemental on a lot of issues and die-hard supporters of what they believe to be the truth, even if their belief is based on a very shallow understanding. It is only a matter of time when they bump into more educated and intellectual heretic and the earth shakes beneath their feet.

[Abdullah al-Shishani]

The only reason I am spending time on the forums is because this is the only way I can be affective at this present time. If I had a choice, I would rather play an active role in the real world than take up Ash'ari-bashing as a profession.

Internet is a very much the real world. In fact you can be very effective with internet, and globally too. But you just need to make it more organized I think. For example, habashis have booklets, especially designed against "wahhabies", where they bring many "dalil", and a person who is not an alim, will not be able to refute them.

If someone could organize all these posts, into a similar book, with refutations of asharis and sufis etc., then it would be much more effective, and people would be able to use it more effectively.

[Abuz Zubair]

Internet is a very much the real world. In fact you can be very effective with internet, and globally too. But you just need to make it more organized I think. For example, habashis have booklets, especially designed against "wahhabies", where they bring many "dalil", and a person who is not an alim, will not be able to refute them.

If only life revolved around these topics.

You can achieve a lot more in real world than the net. The net is only good for writing, and not making a generation.

[1mran]

Dear brother,

This was not me being judgemental. This is only my observation. Unfortunately, the Salafis usually are not learned with respect to the deen nor dunya, but they are very judgemental on a lot of issues and die-hard supporters of what they believe to be the truth, even if their belief is based on a very shallow understanding. It is only a matter of time when they bump into more educated and intellectual heretic and the earth shakes beneath their feet.

then shouldnt we help them instead of label them?

maybe they dont realise the errors they are making?

[Skillganon]

I slightly differ on that. They must be quite clever in respect to distinguish from the straight path from the deviants.

Yes their are some that lack knowledge in terms of deen or maybe dunya, however this is not due to intelligence but rather lack of access.

We need to double our effort in making ifnormation available, as the deviant has been and they been at it longer.

[Um Abdullah M.]

asmaa i wasn't talking of abuz zubair, im talking about salafis in general and I am talking about the western audience.

AZ is the only one who dealt with the asharee issue properly, but i find most salafees simplistic.

that is because many of the shaikhs do not sit much on the internet or read in discussion forums, many do not have the time or for another reason, they are busy with family and doing dawah in the outside world.
and in the world out there, things are somewhat different than what goes on in discussion forums.
and you will find sufis spreading their poison much easier on the internet than out there, and you will find more debates on internet than out there with deviant sects especially.

also, there are other issues in Islam that are important also, not only refuting ash'aris or sufis, and not every shiakh is good at every field, some are good in fiqh, some in science of hadith, some in aqeedah in general, some in specific issues of aqeedah, some in debating deviant sects.
even in debating with deviant sects, some master debating a specific sect, while other in debating another sect, and so on.
but like I said above, I believe the main reason is that they don't read much on internet especially forums, and we dont' expect every knowledgable person to do that, because we need many of them out there.
we have a number of shaikhs and students of knowledge on the internet, well mostly in arabic, but we do have some, so we be thankful to Allah for what we have, and try our best to do our job and not worry about others.
oh yes, and we should put effort in increasing our knowledge, then we dont' have to always worry about not having the answer, those scholars were like us one day, but they dedicated themselves to seeking knowledge until they reached what they reached.
and we are not uncapable of increasign our knowledge.
I don't mean that we have to reach their level, but we shoudl work on increasing it step by step, and ask Allah for ikhlas.

[1mran]

that is because many of the shaikhs do not sit much on the internet or read in discussion forums, many do not have the time or for another reason, they are busy with family and doing dawah in the outside world.
and in the world out there, things are somewhat different than what goes on in discussion forums.
and you will find sufis spreading their poison much easier on the internet than out there, and you will find more debates on internet than out there with deviant sects especially.

also, there are other issues in Islam that are important also, not only refuting ash'aris or sufis, and not every shiakh is good at every field, some are good in fiqh, some in science of hadith, some in aqeedah in general, some in specific issues of aqeedah, some in debating deviant sects.
even in debating with deviant sects, some master debating a specific sect, while other in debating another sect, and so on.
but like I said above, I believe the main reason is that they don't read much on internet especially forums, and we dont' expect every knowledgable person to do that, because we need many of them out there.
we have a number of shaikhs and students of knowledge on the internet, well mostly in arabic, but we do have some, so we be thankful to Allah for what we have, and try our best to do our job and not worry about others.
oh yes, and we should put effort in increasing our knowledge, then we dont' have to always worry about not having the answer, those scholars were like us one day, but they dedicated themselves to seeking knowledge until they reached what they reached.
and we are not uncapable of increasign our knowledge.
I don't mean that we have to reach their level, but we shoudl work on increasing it step by step, and ask Allah for ikhlas.

yeh, i agree with the sister,

everyone has a different parts to play,

[Madarijas-Salikeen]

as salaamu alaykum

many of refutations against shias are in arabic. Many are coming into english. Anyways our great brother dr. salih as salih the talibul ilm has a series on shiaism in audio form on www.understand-islam.net . He is also the author of dispraise of al hawwa where he refuted sufi deviations and mainly nuh ha mim kellers call without twisting what nuh ha mim keller said or did. so its clear cut refutation.