Racism in the gulf

[muwahhid786]

Assalamu alaikum

I've had this talk with almost every single person who has lived in the gulf namely Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, etc and who are of south asian descent. Frankly i am getting sick of talking about the same thing over and over again. As we all know people living in the gulf who are of indian, pakistani, sri lankan, bengali, and others are generally treated with contempt in gulf by mainly the respective governments and sometimes even the locals. I personally have lived in the gulf and I believe much of what is said does occur and it appears not to be on a sporadic basis. Personally i havent seen many things that were done to combat this. What makes it really sad is that many of the stories that people tell me (i.e. being hurled with insults and thrown rocks on while going towards the mosque) is directed towards mainly Muslim brothers and sisters from the subcontinent. I think there has to be something that is done towards this and so far the only thing publicly that has ever been published was the article by arabnews a year ago. Also even though I have the utmost respect for the ulema in the arabian gulf, why hasnt there been a outcry from them regarding this. ALso I am not saying that all people there are racist but that it occurs and what if antying I ask is being done to solve it from both the rulers and the ulema especially in Saudi Arabia.

Also if anyone can share their stories from living there please do so.

[Abuz Zubair]

People there are not racists. They are nationalists. You can get a black Saudi who's given all due respect, and a British Paki who's treated like dirt (when they find out you're still a stinking Paki, after all)

White Europeans and Americans rule, though.

There is a whole generation of Paki Muslims born and bred in the gulf. They, like us, have very little connection left with Pak and some can't even speak Urdu. Some of them are even nationals in that country, yet they are still too ashamed to admit that they are originally Pakis and not Arabs. They are often mocked and laughed at by other Saudis who look down on them, but the society does not teach them the courage to take pride in who they are.

This is one reason I would rather my kids be brought up in the UK than Saudi. Because at least in the UK if someone calls them 'paki', they can retaliate with a slap or two. In Saudi, they are mentally subdued and made to believe that they are inferior.

[Skillganon]

People there are not racists. They are nationalists. You can get a black Saudi who's given all due respect, and a British Paki who's treated like dirt (when they find out you're still a stinking Paki, after all)

White Europeans and Americans rule, though.

There is a whole generation of Paki Muslims born and bred in the gulf. They, like us, have very little connection left with Pak and some can't even speak Urdu. Some of them are even nationals in that country, yet they are still too ashamed to admit that they are originally Pakis and not Arabs. They are often mocked and laughed at by other Saudis who look down on them, but the society does not teach them the courage to take pride in who they are.

This is one reason I would rather my kids be brought up in the UK than Saudi. Because at least in the UK if someone calls them 'paki', they can retaliate with a slap or two. In Saudi, they are mentally subdued and made to believe that they are inferior.

Jeez, if that is the case I know I will be called a Paki even though I am not one exactly.

Why does white American and European treated well?

Don't the scholars reprimand it. What if I go the Haaj and saudi starts on me, can I start back at him?

[Abuz Zubair]

(sorry if I seem picky, bu what does Jeez, mean?)

[Skillganon]

(sorry if I seem picky, bu what does Jeez, mean?)

It is "An expression of minor exasperation or annoyance"

I can see where you coming from (thats if you know), and I should not have used it considering where it is derived from. Soz, it was an unconscious reflex.

[gag order]

They are often mocked and laughed at by other Saudis who look down on them,

this is the type of racism which my cousins bemoan from the likes of the kuwaitis, amiratis and saudis. its worse when the perpatrator is a secular employer and the worker is practising therefore requiring 'unproductive downtime' that is salah...

the most commonly reported and choicest piece of racism is witholding pay that they wouldnt do to a white infidel, or the 'glass ceiling' routine which is in place to prevent asian muslim professionals from replacing white infidel professionals.

[Logic lover]

abuz zubayr wrote:

''In Saudi, they are mentally subdued and made to believe that they are inferior.''

Reply:

JazakAllah for stating the reality brother. Made to feel inferior is a kind of dishonour and I understand that a Muslim is not required to humiliate himself. I think, we have more honour in UK than in Saudi and I would like my children to be brought up with honour and not be humiliated. I am not excluding my obligation which I have as a father.

[Abdullah al-Shishani]

People there are not racists. They are nationalists. You can get a black Saudi who's given all due respect, and a British Paki who's treated like dirt (when they find out you're still a stinking Paki, after all)

White Europeans and Americans rule, though.

There is a whole generation of Paki Muslims born and bred in the gulf. They, like us, have very little connection left with Pak and some can't even speak Urdu. Some of them are even nationals in that country, yet they are still too ashamed to admit that they are originally Pakis and not Arabs. They are often mocked and laughed at by other Saudis who look down on them, but the society does not teach them the courage to take pride in who they are.

This is one reason I would rather my kids be brought up in the UK than Saudi. Because at least in the UK if someone calls them 'paki', they can retaliate with a slap or two. In Saudi, they are mentally subdued and made to believe that they are inferior.


bro so you are Pakistani originally?

[Skillganon]

Yastigfirullah. Even dogs are treated better than that.

Well their goes the muslims brotherhood out of the Window.
If they can't get past simple racism what good are they?

This greatly saddens me.

[Abuz Zubair]

Originally, I am a tatar.

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

bro so you are Pakistani originally?

paki boy!

man i hate the racism from the hijaaz and gulf states. It really makes me sick.

but i also hate the racism from the sub-continent......it really makes me sick...

what goes around comes around.


in u.k. how many asians refuse marriage due to cultural differences? etc

how many people hate gujuratis?

erm wasn't it pakistan who waged a war against bangladesh/formerly known as east pakistan and raped tens of thousands of muslim women! Laa hawla wa laa quwwata illa billah!

how many asians want to have really white skin?

i can go on but the point is we are all as bad as eachother!

wa ALLAHU Musta'an!

[Skillganon]

Originally, I am a tatar.

I guess that is better than being an asian dog!

(No humour intended)

It is nice to know where asian stands.

[Yasir]

wa ‘alaikum as-salaam wa rahmatullah,What if I go the Haaj and saudi starts on me, can I start back at him?That's probably not the ideal thing you'd want to do on hajj.

Having said that, the 'racist' behaviour does exist, unfortunately.
I remember whilst we were being processed through the King Abdul Aziz Airport in Jeddah, I could hear a bunch of haughty Saudi teenagers mocking in Arabic a number of Asian women whose passports they were processing at an adjacent counter, whilst aware they would not understand what was being said about them.

However, the problem also occurs as a result of the simplicity of some 'converts' to Salafiyyah. For example, you often see when some non-Arab brothers 'become salafi', for some reason they seem to think the deen is 'Arab'. And basically it's all about how many times you can drop phrases like "HayyAkallah akhi!", "Tayyib!", "The dars has been organised for Yaum al-Khamis!" etc. in a conversation. To them, whoever can throw it in more (and "who can articulate the words more accurately than an Arab"?!) is deserving of respect and superiority. Out of their naivety they often assign a position of authority to an Arab sincerely thinking them to be more deserving of it over a non-Arab. Many a time, they genuinely see themselves (and their people) to be inferior to the Arabs.

This in some cases can just lead to people abusing that sincerety and innocence of people, and using it for their own gains. Just look at the case of many Pakistani/Bengali youth, who after seeing the 'Saints' their parents have taken as Guides and venerate, rebel and go straight into the hands of some unknown Arab using the name of the deen - all the while being totally oblivious to what the deen entails and the fact they have just gone and made a cult leader of their own to venerate!

I remember a few years ago, I attended a local ISoc circle, and an Arab brother was giving a talk. (I don't know if others have noticed, but some Arab speakers have a habit of paraphrasing aayaat). Anyhow, he was giving his speech and cited an aayah in attempt to support what he had said. Thereafter he began to shout "تأمل! تأمل! Reflect! Contemplate! Allah did not say xy, He said this...." However what he actually had done was paraphrase an aayah and the meaning had been changed.

After the talk, as I knew of the brother and given that I had seen him around a few times, I went over to greet him whilst he was alone and mentioned that they aayah actually reads such and such, and hence the meaning would be slightly different to what had been suggested. He looked at me a little suprised, and then said "SubhanAllah brother, I feel so ashamed." I asked what the problem was, given that it wasn't particularly something to get upset over, and he said, "SubhanAllah brother, I am Arab, and here *you* (non-Arab) are correcting me. I feel so embarassed. It should be me teaching you people what the deen says..." At that point, I just felt sick.

its worse when the perpatrator is a secular employer and the worker is practising therefore requiring 'unproductive downtime' that is salah...It certainly is. I had a Kuwaiti friend (from an original Arab background) who would often mention the contempt and pracitical obstacles he faced in Kuwait for simply deciding to grow his beard. From employers to neighbours and distant relatives, all would have a problem with his outward symbols of religiousness.

Nonetheless, alhamdulillah, there's also been many sincere, honest and respectable Arab brothers and families whom I've been fortunate to know. May Allah preserve them all :) .

[Abdullah al-Shishani]

Originally, I am a tatar.

Yes you do look like them actually...

[Abdullah al-Shishani]

nationalism stinks...

[Skillganon]

paki boy!

man i hate the racism from the hijaaz and gulf states. It really makes me sick.

but i also hate the racism from the sub-continent......it really makes me sick...

what goes around comes around.


in u.k. how many asians refuse marriage due to cultural differences? etc

how many people hate gujuratis?

erm wasn't it pakistan who waged a war against bangladesh/formerly known as east pakistan and raped tens of thousands of muslim women! Laa hawla wa laa quwwata illa billah!

how many asians want to have really white skin?

i can go on but the point is we are all as bad as eachother!

wa ALLAHU Musta'an!

Let's not try to deflect the issue. It a defensive stance that sounds like a justification for saudi. No need. It does not help anymore.

That's probably not the ideal thing you'd want to do on hajj.

Having said that, the 'racist' behaviour does exist, unfortunately.
I remember whilst we were being processed through the King Abdul Aziz Airport in Jeddah, I could hear a bunch of haughty Saudi teenagers mocking in Arabic a number of Asian women whose passports they were processing at an adjacent counter, whilst aware they would not understand what was being said about them.

However, the problem also occurs as a result of the simplicity of some 'converts' to Salafiyyah. For example, you often see when some non-Arab brothers 'become salafi', for some reason they seem to think the deen is 'Arab'. And basically it's all about how many times you can drop phrases like "HayyAkallah akhi!", "Tayyib!", "The dars has been organised for Yaum al-Khamis!" etc. in a conversation. To them, whoever can throw it in more (and "who can articulate the words more accurately than an Arab"?!) is deserving of respect and superiority. Out of their naivety they often assign a position of authority to an Arab sincerely thinking them to be more deserving of it over a non-Arab. Many a time, they genuinely see themselves (and their people) to be inferior to the Arabs.

No need to advise me, to sit back and be complacent.
Sometime it makes you wonder if death is better than this kind of oppression.

If it was not for sake of Allah(swt) I would never let my parents go to Hajj let alone set foot in that country.

It makes you think these people are making money out of you while thy look down on you like a dog, while you are worshipping Allah(swt). The thought of it is disgusting as it is.

[gag order]

in u.k. how many asians refuse marriage due to cultural differences? etc

thats not actually racism

how many people hate gujuratis?

that is racism

erm wasn't it pakistan who waged a war against bangladesh/formerly known as east pakistan and raped tens of thousands of muslim women!

exageration? is bangladesh seeking reperations for it or not?

how many asians want to have really white skin?

you mean fair skin? again that is not racism how many whites would like a sun tan?

[Abuz Zubair]

Skillganon,

Not all Saudis are like that.... there are some very good down to earth people to. People you wish the earth was full of them. They don't care whether you are a Paki or not, and whether they are Saudi national or not... extremely nice people. And when you think of them, you probably would like to send your parents for Hajj.

But just as a rule of thumb, don't take rubbish from anyone, except on Hajj, lest it is rejected by Allah. Remember, Hajj is not just about rituals. It is mainly about patience. This is where the real test lies.

[Abuz Zubair]

"SubhanAllah brother, I am Arab, and here *you* (non-Arab) are correcting me. I feel so embarassed. It should be me teaching you people what the deen says..." At that point, I just felt sick.

Arabs usually do not express themselves very well in English and sound extremely odd. What he could possibly be saying is that: shame on me... I am an Arab and I should have known better, that I am being corrected by someone who is not even an Arab.

Also, do bear in mind that generally speaking, Arabs are the best of all people, just as Quraysh are the best of Arabs and the Banu Hashim are the best of Quraysh, and of course, the Prophet SallAllahu 'alaihi wa-sallam is the best of Banu Hashim. We recognise the virtues of the Arabs over all other nations.

[Yasir]

We recognise the virtues of the Arabs over all other nations.Yes I agree that they do have their many virtuous traits, maasha'Allah, and you would not find any of these undesirable characteristics in their scholars. But it is disappointing, particularly in the West, to see characters that taint that genuine reverence and esteem that others hold for them, and manipulate them with, "You can hand in your passports to me, 'cos I'm the Khalifah!" etc.

[muwahhid786]

People there are not racists. They are nationalists. You can get a black Saudi who's given all due respect, and a British Paki who's treated like dirt (when they find out you're still a stinking Paki, after all)

Really i heard that SOME saudis have a huge skin complex and they treat darker saudis worse. But how is this not racism, protruding a outward show of behavior against one particular race (indians/pakis) for being different from one's own and not having the skin color of a superior one (whites).

White Europeans and Americans rule, though.
I agree totally. IN khaleej they consider only white people to be true americans even though everyone knows they are NOT native americans.


There is a whole generation of Paki Muslims born and bred in the gulf. They, like us, have very little connection left with Pak and some can't even speak Urdu. Some of them are even nationals in that country, yet they are still too ashamed to admit that they are originally Pakis and not Arabs. They are often mocked and laughed at by other Saudis who look down on them, but the society does not teach them the courage to take pride in who they are.


I met many pakistanis who lived in saudi/dubai who love pakistani more than anything in this world and are staunchly nationalistic. I think sometimes what happens is that they become extreme themselves because of the way they are treated. An equal and opposite reaction.


This is one reason I would rather my kids be brought up in the UK than Saudi. Because at least in the UK if someone calls them 'paki', they can retaliate with a slap or two. In Saudi, they are mentally subdued and made to believe that they are inferior.

That is true, many desis there had a huge inferiority complex and were forced to call themselves american or british because your nationality does sometimes help there. But to those who have no nationality to back them up, there is nothing stopping them.

The best example are the airports there. The saudis throw water bottles and slap bengali workers in front of everyone. Also you should see how they treat people who just came from the subcontinent to work. They make them wait for hours almost like animals. It is really sad that your muslim brothers are treated like this. Also about desis treating each other, that is bad but desis in general especially in places like hyderabad which has a huge yemeni population have treated their arab brothers much better than what happens in Saudi and Kuwait for example. You never hear arabs saying bad things about how they were treated in india and pakistan because lets face it many people in the subcontinent have this misconception that being arab makes you pious.

[Skillganon]

Skillganon,

Not all Saudis are like that.... there are some very good down to earth people to. People you wish the earth was full of them. They don't care whether you are a Paki or not, and whether they are Saudi national or not... extremely nice people. And when you think of them, you probably would like to send your parents for Hajj.

I know you are tryng to help, but this not about the few who hold on to the rope of Allah(swt).

Don't worry my parents already went to Haaj once Alhamdulillah, and to save them the grief I would not tell them what they where thinking while they where on their journey to worshiping Allah(swt).
I would encourage them to go again if they choose too, because it is Makkah, the beloved land to Allah(swt).

But just as a rule of thumb, don't take rubbish from anyone, except on Hajj, lest it is rejected by Allah. Remember, Hajj is not just about rituals. It is mainly about patience. This is where the real test lies.

Don't worry I know better than that.




Also, do bear in mind that generally speaking, Arabs are the best of all people, just as Quraysh are the best of Arabs and the Banu Hashim are the best of Quraysh, and of course, the Prophet SallAllahu 'alaihi wa-sallam is the best of Banu Hashim. We recognise the virtues of the Arabs over all other nations.

That is not exactly a vote of confidence considering the reality now. If the Quraysh are the best of the arabs I would like the think how the rest of the non-quraysh arabs are now.

This kind of asabiyaah is sickening. Living in the tie of Jahaliyaah.

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

thats not actually racism

it is when you hate another culture simply because it some from another land!


exageration? is bangladesh seeking reperations for it or not?

not an exageration. There thousands of women raped and do you know why? because the pakistani army were told that the bengalis were mushriks!.....but i wonder how many of them worshipped graves.


you mean fair skin? again that is not racism how many whites would like a sun tan?

yes fair(er) skin, as oppossed to being a darked skinned madrasee or bengalee! i mean how many times have i heard this convo from the self-obssessed bud-bud.

Skillz, nobody here trying to justify saudi or anything, rather my point is yes you will generally find racism of arabs against asians, yet most of the asians who complain about this racism are not only victims of it but perputrators of the very crime they cry foul about.

I have a friend whose father is yemani, but he looks asian. He is a senior elder. He was on hajj and the young saudi attendent at the airport took his trolly with his zam zam and other items and pushed it away to another location just so the uncle would have a hard time with moving the trolly around i.e. has to go retrieve it and bring it back etc.....that is quite hard for a 65yrs + guy

my mrs' when she went umrah they could tell she and her uncle/aunt were asian but were put off by the fact that they grew up in yeman and spoke arabic, (not her) so only until it was confirmed then the behaviour of the hijaazis changed.

i have heard ahl madinah are better than ahl makkah, is this true?

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

The best example are the airports there. The saudis throw water bottles and slap bengali workers in front of everyone. Also you should see how they treat people who just came from the subcontinent to work. They make them wait for hours almost like animals. It is really sad that your muslim brothers are treated like this.

what disgusting and discraceful behaviour! May ALLAH Ta'ala give those muslims who have sufffered at the hands of the servents of the one who lives in a palace overlooking the Ka'ba a palace in jannah! Ameen!

Also about desis treating each other, that is bad but desis in general especially in places like hyderabad which has a huge yemeni population have treated their arab brothers much better than what happens in Saudi and Kuwait for example. You never hear arabs saying bad things about how they were treated in india and pakistan because lets face it many people in the subcontinent have this misconception that being arab makes you pious.


yes your right here. generally asians have issues with blacks and other asians

wa ALLAHU A'lam

[Yasir]

...yet most of the asians who complain about this racism are not only victims of it but perputrators of the very crime they cry foul about.Yes, to objectively look at the problem in perspective, the racism which exists in and around the subcontinent also needs to be considered.

On the topic of Race-Relations, in the UK, Panorama (http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showpost.php?p=26647&postcount=66) seemed to be igniting further tension with their recent documentary, and some of the feedback on their site.

[ibn Kamal]

The problem is worldwide, even in Khalij and especially Saudi-Arabia it is extrem. But in all arab countries, the whiter the skin, the better you will be seen by people.
In egyptian movies you will never see a dark egyptian. All actors look like europeans and are dressed so, not like a normal egyptian let alone a Saiidi.
The darker (not even black) a woman is, the harder she will be married. Thats why so many Khalijis are marrying women from Shaam.
A sudanese from north sudan will look down to one from Darfur, even there might be in his case no difference in skin colour or he might even be darker.
I think humans need this...

[Skillganon]

Skillz, nobody here trying to justify saudi or anything, rather my point is yes you will generally find racism of arabs against asians, yet most of the asians who complain about this racism are not only victims of it but perputrators of the very crime they cry foul about.

Assalamu alaikum wr wb.

This is not about asians being commiter of a crime that they are afoul of.

When did you see anyone discounting racism in general?
Neither this is not about what happened back than (history) during the Bangladeshi nationalism, as this can be shown true for middle east in general.

Their is seriousely something wrong in the middle east, and I never thought any less. Let's stick to the topic.

This is about the middle east especially Saudi, where Makkah lies. You must admit even the kuffar treats their dogs better than that.

I won't exactly call that a culture.

[Umm Ahmed]

Nationalism is a problem a lot of that stems from people having nothing to suddenly having too much which has led to arrogance, but the intolerance of paki indian and bangali nationalities is due to many other problems too, mainly being ripped off constantly , if I go rent a car its 120dhs I have to to get imy Indian neighbour to rent it as he gets it for 80dhs , an other time when we laid down interlocking on the floor outside, I was charged two thousand dh's instead of six hundred dh's for dirt , I only came to know when the pakistani driver felt guilty after a month and came to tell me that his compatriot had cheated me, and the goverment does nothing to these crooks.
This is one of the reasons the arabs look up to the kuffar as they know they are trustworthy in dealings.
I haven't seen or heard of rocks or insults being thrown at muslims because of their race though, but we have been told that no one will marry our children because their mothers an engleesee.

[Skillganon]

Assalamu alaikum wr wb sis

Now the racism is due to asian ripping of others constantly?
Woaah. That is a new line of thought. I wonder how far one would get with that.

Shifting the blame is not entirely a good Idea, as this can be reciprocated easily.

[Umm Ahmed]

Assalamu alaikum wr wb sis

Now the racism is due to asian ripping of others constantly?
Woaah. That is a new line of thought. I wonder how far one would get with that.

Shifting the blame is not entirely a good Idea, as this can be reciprocated easily.

Wa alaykum as salaam

Its not racisim its nationalism as I allready said ! I also said brother in my opinion a lot of the problems stems from being ripped off , I wonder how you would react to going into a shop knowing that because your a national in that country it means your going to be charged way more than everyone else and not everyone is rich in the gulf. No idea why you would think I was shifting the blame. I voiced what I see here first hand.
But dont you think its racist to charge more for some nationalities ?

[Skillganon]

Wa alaykum as salaam

Its not racisim its nationalism as I allready said ! I also said brother in my opinion a lot of the problems stems from being ripped off , I wonder how you would react to going into a shop knowing that because your a national in that country it means your going to be charged way more than everyone else and not everyone is rich in the gulf. No idea why you would think I was shifting the blame. I voiced what I see here first hand.
But dont you think its racist to charge more for some nationalities ?

So you are telling me that it's not racism but nationalism, and the arab are acually the victim of their own nationalism?

Because this racist asians charge the nationals extra?

Who been feeding this line of thoughts, Hitler?
As I said this line of Justification can be reciprocated.

Look sis, this is not a debate or some argument. Clearly it is not hitting off too well.

I don't wan't to end a it in any bad terms or with anyone. Yes racism is a problem, first it has to be honestly admitted and dealt with for what it is i.e. the treatment of asians in arab hand.
Otherwise it becomes a sickness off the heart.

p.s. Last time I checked Nationalism is the one of part that brought the islamic civilzation to what it is. It is nothing to be proud of.

[muwahhid786]

Nationalism is a problem a lot of that stems from people having nothing to suddenly having too much which has led to arrogance, but the intolerance of paki indian and bangali nationalities is due to many other problems too, mainly being ripped off constantly , if I go rent a car its 120dhs I have to to get imy Indian neighbour to rent it as he gets it for 80dhs , an other time when we laid down interlocking on the floor outside, I was charged two thousand dh's instead of six hundred dh's for dirt , I only came to know when the pakistani driver felt guilty after a month and came to tell me that his compatriot had cheated me, and the goverment does nothing to these crooks.
This is one of the reasons the arabs look up to the kuffar as they know they are trustworthy in dealings.
I haven't seen or heard of rocks or insults being thrown at muslims because of their race though, but we have been told that no one will marry our children because their mothers an engleesee.

Dubai is not as bad as the other gulf states according to the people i talked to. But I'm sure there is nationalism that is associated with not dealing with people.

[Umm Ahmed]

So you are telling me that it's not racism but nationalism, and the arab are acually the victim of their own nationalism?

Because this racist asians charge the nationals extra?

Who been feeding this line of thoughts, Hitler?
As I said this line of Justification can be reciprocated.

Look sis, this is not a debate or some argument. Clearly it is not hitting off too well.

I don't wan't to end a it in any bad terms or with anyone. Yes racism is a problem, first it has to be honestly admitted and dealt with for what it is i.e. the treatment of asians in arab hand.
Otherwise it becomes a sickness off the heart.

p.s. Last time I checked Nationalism is the one of part that brought the islamic civilzation to what it is. It is nothing to be proud of.


I am not debating I shared what has happened to me personally , and that if someone might bear a grudge towards certain nationalites because of this then I am sure you would understand, if this was happening to you please tell me what would be your reaction ?
Islam is about fairness to everyone , I dont see that from the asian community here in the UAE sorry .

[Umm Ahmed]

Dubai is not as bad as the other gulf states according to the people i talked to. But I'm sure there is nationalism that is associated with not dealing with people.

Yes your right there is some of that too.

[Um Abdullah M.]

I agree with Um Ahmed
its nationalism more than racism.

Arabs from different countries dont' even treat each other well.
Not only in Gulf countries.
and the south Asians are not the only ones looked down at by ignorant ill mannered Muslims in Gulf and in non Gulf countries.

my home country is a non Gulf Arab country, and some of my people look down at people who are not from the country considering them inferior becuase they are from another country, regardless if they are Arab or non Arab.
oh and some of them even look down at westerners too, not only non westerners.
while my people are looked down and not treated well in other countries.
so these people who are nationals and racist get their share of racism when they go to other places.
but those are not the majority of people insha Allah, except when it comes to blacks, sadly, I believe they are the most ones being looked down upon.

so it happens everywhere, in Arab and non Arab countries.

but one must remember that it is not all the people of the country, so one shouldnt' generalize.

nationalism is from jahiliyyah, and it is everywhere, you will also find it in Asian countries.

I went to Hajj with one of my family members, and my parents went to hajj in a different year, and we had no problems of racism alhamdulillah, just problems with the hamla itself.

There are good and bad people everywhere.
and shaikhs do speak about this, they do bring it up in some of their lectures, especially the issue of tribalism and ansab, in which people from the same country themselves are racist against each other, one tribe looking down at another believing they are better because of their tribe.
so even within the same country you will find people looking down at each other becuase of their tribes and lineage.
and shaikh 'Ayd al Qarni spoke about this not too long ago.

it is all jahiyliyyah, that is still found in many people in many Muslim countries, Arab and non Arab.

[Abuz Zubair]

Sister Umm Ahmad is right, and you would only know this by living in such countries where Paks and Bengolis con you, no matter what nationality you are. Local Arabs with the same profession will never con you. An average Arab would never charge you more than what he deserves. A Paki will rip you off, and this is undeniably true, and yes, it does give the Saudis a reason for their unacceptable nationalist attitude.

Sister Asma is also right about nationalist amongst the Arabs, and hence, the reason why it is nationalism and not racism. You have a hierarchy of nationalities:

a) The Royals
b) White British or American
c) Saudis
d) Other British or American
e) Other Gulf countries
f) Syria
g) Egypt and such African countries
h) Palestinians

And then come the non-Arabs
i) Pakistanis
j) Burmese
k) Filipino
l) Bengolis
m) Nigerians who beg and steal outside the haram. Well, they have no nationality, really, nor iqama. So they are the stateless people.

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

doesn't natinalism breed racism? surley we can see it in the case of the arabs and some of the sub-continent asians?

as sister asmaa said, it is all jahiliyyah. I really hate it!


when i was a non-believer, i faced racism from many whites and blacks, but due to "rap culture" i started to "cuss de white boy" i really hated whites, and because I'm nepalese I was neither paki nor bud bud ding ding. So i would also hate pakistanis and bengalis because it was cool to be "non-paki!" it was so bad that i didn't even eat the food of a pakistani auntie that was my mum's friend and made some food for us!

but when i came to the deen wal-lillahil hamd my racism went away - i hope so innsha'ALLAH

But i have seen th most racism come from the arabs of edgware road and some of the pakistani nationals. Don;t get me wrong i have arabs and pakistanis/indians in my immeidate family but as bro skillz said there is a predomnant problem in the hijaaz areas and i add to that the pakistani nationals to be honest.

I have even heard about how so-called pakistani muslim say in regards to the masses of bengali sisters raped during the 70's war "well they ain't that good looking anyway"

i was speaking to a brother yesterday about schools and he told me that in madrasah (where he works) because it is gujurati run, that they are told to give precedence to the guji kids over others! Subhanullah!

May ALLAH Ta'ala destroy 'asabiyyah and wataniyyah from our ummah and make us love Him-Subhanahu, His RasuL(SALLAHU 'ALAYHI WAS-SALLAM) and the deen! Ameen!

[Abuz Zubair]

Well, the lesson I learnt from al of this my friend, is if you look around, you realise there is only one place you belong and 'fit in', more than anywhere else.

That's Britain.

So let's make the most of what we have by cherishing the good and eradicating the evil of racism and other isms and schisms.

[WM]

Abuz Zubair the tatar :) ..what do you mean 'originally'?

[Abuz Zubair]

Abuz Zubair the tatar :) ..what do you mean 'originally'?
Meaning my 6th grandfather migrated from Turkistan to Delhi. My grandfather was born in British India, and migrated to Pakistan after the separation, and then my father migrated to the UK, and that's where I was born.

So if someone asks me of my origin, I say I am originally a Tatar, because that's what I am.

[abu_ibrahim]

Meaning my 6th grandfather migrated from Turkistan to Delhi. My grandfather was born in British India, and migrated to Pakistan after the separation, and then my father migrated to the UK, and that's where I was born.

So if someone asks me of my origin, I say I am originally a Tatar, because that's what I am.

You can trace your family tree back 6 generations?

[Abuz Zubair]

yes... only six generations

[Skillganon]

I am not debating I shared what has happened to me personally , and that if someone might bear a grudge towards certain nationalites because of this then I am sure you would understand, if this was happening to you please tell me what would be your reaction ?
Islam is about fairness to everyone , I dont see that from the asian community here in the UAE sorry .

Assalamu alaikum wr wb.

Look I know some asians charge more, and trust me wheter I go or you go, won't make a difference. They will try to make a good profit out of you. That is from my own experience. (I am not going to go into wheter it breaks any law of the land.)

What I am saying is this is not an excuse for racism. When you try to justify it like that, and use that as an excuse it makes it worse, especially in the eyes of others.

[Abuz Zubair]

I don't think she's trying to justify. She is only trying stating one of the reasons why Paks are not trusted and looked down upon. There is a difference between justification and explanation, and I think we as Muslims in the post 9/11 and 7/7 world should be the first ones to know this :)

[Husain]

a) The Royals
b) White British or American
c) Saudis
d) Other British or American
e) Other Gulf countries
f) Syria
g) Egypt and such African countries
h) Palestinians

One question: Where are other white Europeans in this list? Let's take Germans, for example.

- Husain.

[Abuz Zubair]

After British and American.

[Skillganon]

I don't think she's trying to justify. She is only trying stating one of the reasons why Paks are not trusted and looked down upon. There is a difference between justification and explanation, and I think we as Muslims in the post 9/11 and 7/7 world should be the first ones to know this :)

For example if I went back home to my own country, I know for sure people will be charge me extra. You can ask any asians in U.K about that.

I don't know wheter in the arabs land the paks con people out of their money or not or wheter their price is a bit higher, or they charge less amongst themself. This is not a reason to look down on people.

If you going to use that as somekind of explanation that that is poor. One should consider maybe the asians the charge you extra because you treat them like sub-human.

Should I look down on all arabs since exthorting price exist amongst the arab on non-arab. Well that is my experiences. If your from the same nationality, home country they charge you less.

I don't think this count as one of the reason

[Abuz Zubair]

You are right about stereotypes... Just because Paki Taxi drivers are known for conning people indiscriminately not all pakis should be stereotyped with that. Again, this is not a justification for racism... this is an exaplanation as to why sometimes this attitude is triggered.

It's like Paki parents who get over concerned about you bringing your kala friend home... cuz all kalas steal.

[Skillganon]

You are right about stereotypes... Just because Paki Taxi drivers are known for conning people indiscriminately not all pakis should be stereotyped with that. Again, this is not a justification for racism... this is an exaplanation as to why sometimes this attitude is triggered.

It's like Paki parents who get over concerned about you bringing your kala friend home... cuz all kalas steal.

Paki charge extra even amongst non-native paki.

It is like saying arabs charge you for tap water in a coffee house. or they con you in a coffee house over a coffee.

[Abuz Zubair]

Yes... this is the problem with paks, they charge everyone extra indiscriminately, and for this reason, people begin to dislike pakis. I mean, I am a paki and I dislike them for this... But I shouldn't start treating all Pakis as dirt... for there isno justification for it. But if I do start treating them all as dirt, in spite of being a Paki myself, then surely you would understand, in spite of your disagreement, my behaviour, right?

[Skillganon]

Yes... this is the problem with paks, they charge everyone extra indiscriminately, and for this reason, people begin to dislike pakis. I mean, I am a paki and I dislike them for this... But I shouldn't start treating all Pakis as dirt... for there isno justification for it. But if I do start treating them all as dirt, in spite of being a Paki myself, then surely you would understand, in spite of your disagreement, my behaviour, right?

I thought you was a tartar.

Anyway, it is the same with non-paki. You will find amongst them that charge extra on people, if you visit UK and not street wise. It happens amongts the whites aswell.

If one think the price is a bit high shop elsewhere.

[Abuz Zubair]

I thought you was a tartar.

Originally... as I said.

Anyway, it is the same with non-paki. You will find amongst them that charge extra on people, if you visit UK and not street wise. It happens amongts the whites aswell.

If one think the price is a bit high shop elsewhere.

Yes, but not as common as it is amongst two groups of people, Pakis and Nigerians.

[Yasir]

is due to many other problems too, mainly being ripped off constantly I remember an Asian barber in Makkah, he asked me to pay him in Pounds!

[Skillganon]

I remember an Asian barber in Makkah, he asked me to pay him in Pounds!

That must been a beggar. THey do that if they think you are from the west. They can tell miles away.

Bro, what I find stupendous is that this native arabs apparently get charged extra, conned in their own country where they probably lived most of the live at.

You cannot make a case out of an arab getting charged the standard price, and offering someone you know a discount.

If you are a foriegner you will get charged a bit more. I am sure if I go to arab land, I will be equally undescrimately conned and charged extra.

Now, this is hardly a case to give any kind of excuse for racism.

Yes, but not as common as it is amongst two groups of people, Pakis and Nigerians.

If that is common amongst nigerian and Pakis. Than their must be lot of nigerian and pakis around. So it explains the reason for Indians, chinese, bangladeshi's? and other non-asian races that have sub-human treatment.

[Abuz Zubair]

Well, bro.. I think one thing you MUST understand is that NO ONE is defending their wrong, racist and nationalist attitude...

All we're saying is that sometimes we ask for it, and I know this being a Paki myself :)

[Skillganon]

Well, bro.. I think one thing you MUST understand is that NO ONE is defending their wrong, racist and nationalist attitude...

All we're saying is that sometimes we ask for it, and I know this being a Paki myself :)

I differ, rather I think this racist and nationalistic attitude exist because they are racist and nationalistic, and they will try to use any excuse to be one. This is pure aassabiyah.

Our prophet(saw) did not ask for it and how many time did he warn against it.

[Yasir]

That must been a beggar. THey do that if they think you are from the west. They can tell miles away.No he wasn't a beggar, he was a businessman with a few other barbers employed in his shop.

No-one is excusing racism, but these problems exist at different levels.
Not so long ago I remember Newsnight did a piece on Southampton, where 1 in every 10 people is believed to be Polish. They interviewed a Muslim mother and daughter from a Pakistani background. The mother (in her late 50's) was asked what she thought of the Polish immigration into Southampton over the last few years. She said on camera in Urdu (which was then translated by her daughter for the reporter), "I seek forgiveness (from Allah), this is a sign of Qiyamah!"

[suhail]

Assalaam Alykum,

Actually if you havent been to any gulf countries it is not easy for you to think about this. I have been to few countries in gulf for varied amount of times.

The thing about the people from india and pakistan is that they are looked down upon by there own people aka desis and especially pakis. There is nationalism also involved in all of this. Desis make a fool out of natives there with pakis at the forefront. Secondly there are so many immoral things that they do it is just disgusting. They tease arab girls in the malls or pass leud comments your stomach will churn. This is a desi trait which is very repulsive. I have seen these with my own eyes.

Arabs have very low opinion about them because of all this.

Also what i have seen is arabs are too much fond of english and white man. Whenever you speak english with them there eyes will brighten up and if he had done a degree in england or US all the accent will come out of his mouth. Sometimes i laughed just because of the accent that i heard coming from an arab. They do look down on desis or africans because of host of reason, racism being one.

In 1980s arabs in rural areas were so simple and some still are but things are changing rapidly. I used to live in a village with my father in oman and i am telling you walking among those simple people would have enlighten your spirits. Those days still bring joy to my heart.

Jazakallah Khair
Suhail

[Umm Ahmed]

What I said has been taken out of context somewhat , I dont condone anyone being treated as subhuman because they are a crook, and I haven't seen that happen here in general , one just goes to someone else in the hope that they will be fair in their dealings.
But there will be a bitter aftertaste when your treated badly , just like others in this thread who have posted because they have seen racisim at first hand.

[muwahhid786]

I would like to say Pakis are not the only race in Saudi arabia that are demeaned. There are indians, sri lankans, bengalis, and alot of philipinos (though those are nonmuslim usually). The best people with the best akhlaq i met in saudi were the south indians and/or the sri lankans. I dont think they would do something like this (overcharging). I've seen a paki owner overprice a saudi kid in a thrifty rent a car store but that's because saudi kids are notorious for totaling their cars only to get a new one the next day. If you dont believe type in "saudi" and "cars" on youtube (dont forget to also type "Crazy"). I dont think these people deserve the treatment that they get for a few bad apples. The system is designed so people like this have no rights and get deported even if they are innocent of the crime. If a desi guy from india and a saudi guy get into the argument the default is that the indian guy is guilty. You cannot justify to me that a nonMuslim white guy from america (who gets a red carpet treatment) should get better treatment because some of his people dont rip off as much. Plus not only desi guys are disgusting, you ever see what saudi teens do in and out of a malls (i've seen it with my own eyes). IT happens from the natives more than it happens from foreigners. Plus i forgot to add that the gulf is the only place i visited where most of the menial labor is not done by the natives. The laziness that is apparent there is unmatched. They rather be unemployed than work at starbucks. Again when i say this stuff i dont mean it in general terms but it does happen quite often. So i hate it when foreigners are blamed for the problems that their own people have sowed.

Additionally i dont see how nationalism can lead to racism. The saudis treat the other arabs better than the desis. You cannot explain this with nationalism because egyptians and indians can have the same jobs there. The only distinguishable quality is their nationality. The saudis have more respect for egyptians than they do for indians and this is racism because they are looking down more on one race over the other irrespective of his nationality.

[gag order]

a racist will look for excuses to justify his racism which is already present in him so it is irrelevant if asians cheat them or not and is besides the point, the vast majority of asians it seems are employed as part of the labour force where they are not in a position to 'cheat' yet they are treated like slaves who were taken into captivity.

[gag order]

sure asians have their fair share of faults, but they remain corteous on the whole whilst their hosts wont even return salam to them nor extend them the common courtesy that every human bieng is entitled to.

that my brothers and sisters is racism! the smug feeling of superiority, the condescending attitude against the 'disgracefully poor' asian..

[gag order]

this is the type of racism which my cousins bemoan from the likes of the kuwaitis, amiratis and saudis. its worse when the perpatrator is a secular employer and the worker is practising therefore requiring 'unproductive downtime' that is salah...

the most commonly reported and choicest piece of racism is witholding pay that they wouldnt do to a white infidel, or the 'glass ceiling' routine which is in place to prevent asian muslim professionals from replacing white infidel professionals.

this is certainly not nationalism it is pure racism!

[gag order]

to be fair i should make a distinction between the arab employer/official and the arab public, since those who have provided me with enough disheartening anecdotes make a distinction between the employer/official and the benign public

[suhail]

You are right brother gag order. There are a lot of events of racism. The worst thing i hate being from india is that the hindus are treated with more respect then muslims from india. These hindus are sending money to RSS and VHP from arab countries to slaughter muslims in india.

Jazakallah khair
Suhail

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

man forget just the gulf what about the arabs here in edgware road. I remember going to a particular cafe, and we had to wait until the white customers were served first before us "asians" were served and even when the waiter came over he didn't have the same courtesy or adaab as he did for mr and mrs benson.

these guys were lebanese btw!

If a man is a thief then he will get the hadd yes?

If a person calls to nationalism/asabiyyah then he is not from the Rasul(sallahu 'alayhi was-sallam) and it is likened to biting his father's thingy-ma-jig.

[Umm Ahmed]

What you have said is true Gag order as well and the cheating is not from the labour force , its from the middle class ( my encounter anyway)
The large companies that treat their workers badly are fined heavily and the companies are not always run by emiraties , anyway I live in the UAE thats how it is, I have no idea about saudi , may Allaah guide them ameen.

[Um Abdullah M.]

Additionally i dont see how nationalism can lead to racism. The saudis treat the other arabs better than the desis. You cannot explain this with nationalism because egyptians and indians can have the same jobs there. The only distinguishable quality is their nationality. The saudis have more respect for egyptians than they do for indians and this is racism because they are looking down more on one race over the other irrespective of his nationality.

I disagree with you on this.
I have seen saudis and egyptians on the internet cursing at each other.
I have also heard some saudis speak bad about egyptians and some other arab nationalities in their country.
and same happens in other Arab countries, looking down at Saudis and speak bad of them, and disliking them, and you will find in some arab countries, saudis being looked at as inferior in those countries, so racism happens to saudis also in other countries, when they go there.
everyone who is mutakabir, in their country, believes he is better than the other person, because he is from the country and the other person is a foreigner.

mix of nationalism and racism.
and this is everywhere not in Saudi Arabia only.

and there are many good non racist, non nationalist saudis, and there are also many ones who have kibr, and are nationalist racist.
same as in all other countries, good and bad people are found everywhere.

[Um Abdullah M.]

I have noticed that many specifically speak of gulf countries, and making it sound like south asians are all being treated badly and being racist again.
lets be fair, almost every country has its share of racism and kibr, one notices it even in the west !!
you will find each nationality grouping with each other in masjid, and some of them looking down at other nationalities, even arabs looking down at each other, ones beign from a differnet country than them.

and these are not Arabs from Gulf countries, they are from other arab non gulf countries, some more than others.
and you will also find some pakistani muslims looking down at arabs.

so jahiliyyah is found even in some of the ones in west, and in probabaly all nationalities and races.

so instead of speaking about a specific country, let it be a general discussion on nationalims and racism.

one might be surprised to even find some racism in their ownselves, that they might have not noticed.
so we should try to also check ourselves, we might find some traces of it in us, without realizing it.

[gag order]

I have noticed that many specifically speak of gulf countries, and making it sound like south asians are all being treated badly and being racist again.
lets be fair, almost every country has its share of racism and kibr, one notices it even in the west !!.

the topic is racism in the gulf, and often this racism is perpatrated by an employer or an official against the disgracefully poor asian muslims. its a type of racism many of us will probably never perpatrate since we have no foreigner subordinates who owe us their gratitude so that we can throw it back at them.

[Abu wakee]

I have noticed that many specifically speak of gulf countries, and making it sound like south asians are all being treated badly and being racist again.
lets be fair, almost every country has its share of racism and kibr, one notices it even in the west !!
you will find each nationality grouping with each other in masjid, and some of them looking down at other nationalities, even arabs looking down at each other, ones beign from a differnet country than them.

and these are not Arabs from Gulf countries, they are from other arab non gulf countries, some more than others.
and you will also find some pakistani muslims looking down at arabs.

so jahiliyyah is found even in some of the ones in west, and in probabaly all nationalities and races.

so instead of speaking about a specific country, let it be a general discussion on nationalims and racism.

one might be surprised to even find some racism in their ownselves, that they might have not noticed.
so we should try to also check ourselves, we might find some traces of it in us, without realizing it.


I don't know what kind of sheltered world you live in. In the Gulf, racism (coupled with an inferiority-superiority complex) is so institutionalized that a White man fom Europe or N. America gets paid more, many a times, for the same job, than his 'Hindi' (Indians/Pakistanis) compatriots.

You're either too naive, or just too callous to admit the nonsense that happens there.

[Abu Ilyas]

As Salamaualiakum,

The problem, I believe is kibr. Arrogance exists in most nations.

Many British people are very arrogant, they see themselves as superior to pakis and Bengalis in this country, but the British have a certain 'polite arrogance' which does not come across as vulgar as the many examples of Gulf Arab racism. The Gulf Arab is more crude and this has more to do with the fact that these people were living as bedouins just a couple of generations ago and those crude habits have not died out yet, whereas the British appear less crude and disguise their arrogance much more due to their relative civility.

And the Prophet SAWS said that a person with a small amount of kibr will not enter Jannah, we seek Allahs refuge.

I'm sure there are many Gulf Arabs who dont have this kibr and many British likewise.

On the point of wage differentials, then yes this is routine in the gulf, absolutely! A white man will be paid much more than an equivalently qualified Brown Man, for no apparent reason other than the skin colour.

[abootalha]

A lot of IndoPaks have a huge inferiority complex which makes them incapable of saying anything back and then there is the whole mentality of reverence to the White Man. Quite Often when i go to certain Desi restaurants, they will serve the white person better and more courteously and they look at you like you came out of the cave due to the beard and all. So you just have to speak Inglish and you start noticing change at the counter....

[Abuz Zubair]

And have you noticed that such isn't the case with Muslims born in the West do not have this complex? I mean, I can only talk about British Muslims, at least we have the courage to give as good as we get.

[abootalha]

I am talking about some recent immigrants in the U.S. I have had so many funny experiences its unbelievable. I have gone into places and spoke Urdu and the people dealing with me start speaking in English which is barely recognizable (you know paki mentality, if you have a big beard you are an uneducated molwi who just eats so speak English to them)and then we start conversing in English they switch right back to Urdu. But there are some American Born Desi Kids who have that mentality too especially if they grew up in suburbs with white folks. Its like this in the U.S, in the Cities especially Yemenis and some other Arabs want to act "Black and Hispanic" and the Desis want to act white. Sadly nobody is comfortable with their own identity.

[Um Abdullah M.]

I don't know what kind of sheltered world you live in. In the Gulf, racism (coupled with an inferiority-superiority complex) is so institutionalized that a White man fom Europe or N. America gets paid more, many a times, for the same job, than his 'Hindi' (Indians/Pakistanis) compatriots.

You're either too naive, or just too callous to admit the nonsense that happens there.

what is the problem akhi??

Did I deny that their is racism and kibr in the Gulf?
I live in Saudi Arabia and know that their are nationlists, racists and arrogant people, but there are also many good people.

so please read my posts well before you reply and attack.

[Skillganon]

I can understand an newly arrived immigrant arab licking the boot of an white man in England, but I don't understand all the boot licking that goes on in the arab world.

Blimey they have no shame.

This is the colonial mentality that has been instilled by their white masters.

[abu_ibrahim]

And have you noticed that such isn't the case with Muslims born in the West do not have this complex? I mean, I can only talk about British Muslims, at least we have the courage to give as good as we get.

When the 1st generation came, they were told just to keep their heads down and work hard, so that they could send money back home.

2nd generation who are born here fight back and don't take it.

[Abuz Zubair]

I can understand an newly arrived immigrant arab licking the boot of an white man in England, but I don't understand all the boot licking that goes on in the arab world.

Blimey they have no shame.

This is the colonial mentality that has been instilled by their white masters.
Not only Arabs... even Paks, and in fact, all Asian countries.

Although, I would still say that Arabs have no excuse to boot-lick these guys. After all, they have money, respect, and they were never colonised. They have the oil, and they can bring the world to a standstill, but... Wallahul-Musta'an...

We should just be thankful to Allah that He has united us on Islam and broken down all the barriers, racial, nationalistic, tribal and other barriers. This is what I like about the British Muslim community. It is like a melting pot of the Ummah, becoming one :)

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

didn't the arabs invent that joke: "you think i'm indian" i.e. stupid?

[Abu wakee]

didn't the arabs invent that joke: "you think i'm indian" i.e. stupid?

Yep. Being called a 'Hindi' is considered an insult. Atleast in the Gulf.

[Abuz Zubair]

didn't the arabs invent that joke: "you think i'm indian" i.e. stupid?
did they? first time I am coming across this one.

[knowrass]

did they? first time I am coming across this one.

me too! i don't think arabs invent it, wallaahu a'lam.

in iraq, people tend to say about wierd, wacky stories: "shinu?! film hindi?!" (what [is this]?! an indian movie?!). although this ISN'T an insult to indians, rather it's a joke about how bollywood movies are so unrealistic, so they refer to matters that just seem so unrealistic as indian movies.

[Um Abdullah M.]

did they? first time I am coming across this one.

I've never come across it either, not in real life nor in arabic forums where majority are ones from khaleej (the Gulf).
maybe I will ask my husband, since he has been living in KSA most of his life.

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

well who was it then? the arabic speaking indians? lol! ;)

i think it is from Iraaq because the joke involved saddam etc (old joke)

wa ALLAHU A'lam

[Skillganon]

We as muslim should be the most vocal against racism, and we should give Zero tolerance to racism.

We should not give excuse, as racism breeds on excuses.

Let's kick Racism out of the Gulf!!

So who's with me?

[muwahhid786]

I'm in

I think people start to change their attitudes from "those pakis deserve the treatment" and there's "racism everywhere so how is this different" to something more constructive like yes there is something wrong and we need to change it and publicize something like this. Saudi is looked upon as the standard of islam more than any country and I think change should start here.

[Um Abdullah M.]

Let's kick Racism out of the Gulf!!

So who's with me?

Lets kick racism out of every Muslim country, or more like from amongest the Muslims, not only the Gulf.

[gag order]

Lets kick racism out of every Muslim country, or more like from amongest the Muslims, not only the Gulf.

thats it, keep trying to lay blame elsewhere..

[suhail]

thats it, keep trying to lay blame elsewhere..

And always be sarcastic.

[gag order]

And always be sarcastic.

okay, will do..

[Abuz Zubair]

thats it, keep trying to lay blame elsewhere..
That's a very unjust statement to make. I don't know where you come from, but I am sure you are well aware of the typical hindu-like racism and caste system rife amongst the Pakis. You ought to know the racism between the Pathans, the MQM, the Punjabis and Beloch, etc. You ought to know the backward mirpuri mindset, too. My wife was treated like a kafir (guri) at school cuz she couldn't speak Urdu, whilst the mirpuris themselves were into Indian films and culture, etc.

We all have it bro, and all the sister is saying we all need to get rid of it. She isn't an Arab supremacist.

[Skillganon]

Lets kick racism out of every Muslim country, or more like from amongest the Muslims, not only the Gulf.

Agreed. I was more specifically focusing on the topic. You must admit, it is a very good Slogan.

"Let's Kick Racism out of Gulf".

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:j3bfdBmJknfY_M:http://www.whuinteract.org.uk/kiograds/images/shah123.jpg

http://www.bwfc.premiumtv.co.uk/javaImages/8/7/0,,1004~3016456,00.jpg

[Um Abdullah M.]

thats it, keep trying to lay blame elsewhere..

lay blame on who?
I said "every Muslim" country, I didn't say from non Gulf countries.
so that would include my home country which is a NON gulf arab country, and the other non Gulf arab countries, and all other Muslim countries, whether in Asia, Africa, or Europe, in addition to Gulf countries.
and I said "from amongest all Muslims) becuase there are Muslims who live in non Muslim countries, and still have racism or nationalism in them.
when I said that, I didn't have a specific country or nationality in mind.
so I don't know what you mean by "lay blame elsewhere".

[Umm Ahmed]

yep no to racisim, lets start with the word "FOB"

[gag order]

We all have it bro, and all the sister is saying we all need to get rid of it. She isn't an Arab supremacist.

and the first step is to acknowledge that the racism of the gulf arabs (employers/officials) towards asians (workers) is without comparison. or at the very least admit that it exists, instead she chooses divert the attention to other countries and how arabs supposedly treat each other.

[morbius]

That's a very unjust statement to make. I don't know where you come from, but I am sure you are well aware of the typical hindu-like racism and caste system rife amongst the Pakis.

Do not confuse things. Caste system is not part of Hindu beliefs, but rather a social system. Muslims in India also live in caste system.

And reading this thread makes me remember your previous claims that there is no racism among Muslims. Do you believe me now when I say that racism is something that is a product of western society, but something that is common for all people? It is simply in our nature to distrust those who are different from us.

[abu_ibrahim]

Do not confuse things. Caste system is not part of Hindu beliefs, but rather a social system. Muslims in India also live in caste system.

Wrong as usual. The caste system is part of the social system, but is a integral part of Hinduism. The higest caste is Brahman and according to Hindu text, the Brahman's have sprung from the mouth of Brahma (A Hindu God).

The Brahman is also regarded as the possesor of the Veda, a Hindu scripture. They also regarded as the chief of the whole creation and has the right to become a Hindu priest. The Hindu scriptures have countless verses praising the virture of the Brahmans.

[Abuz Zubair]

and the first step is to acknowledge that the racism of the gulf arabs (employers/officials) towards asians (workers) is without comparison. or at the very least admit that it exists, instead she chooses divert the attention to other countries and how arabs supposedly treat each other.
She is right in that it isn't racism, rather, it is nationalism, and hence, she herself is probably a victim of that. You guys insist on calling it racism. She isn't trying to divert attention. I feel you are being over-sensitive about this. You have to live in the Gulf to know what she's talking about.

Sister Asma, don't feel the urge to reply to every post if you feel its getting no where. I do that.

As for your Morbius, Mr. know-it-all, just stick to your Serbian racist-nationalism and leave other cultures and religion for... others. Caste system, and many other ignorant practises are deeply rooted in Hinduism. The SOME of the sub-continent Muslims inherited the caste system directly from the Hindus, as they also inherited many of their ignorant and oppressive traditions.

Even in the sub-continent, it is more of an issue of tribalism, nationalism and caste-system, and not that much of racism. There is no denying that racism exists amongst Muslims, as does tribalism and nationalism, however, it is not something that Muslims feel proud of, or Islam condones. When a Christian guy robs and murders, it isn't because it is in human nature to rob and murder, nor is it something sanctioned in Christianity. Rather, the man's nature AND his religion BOTH stand against it.

You, on the other hand, do not only have the sickness of racism, you are actually proud of it, which you justify by hiding behind your nature/natural inclinations, etc.

[Suhaib Jobst]

Do not confuse things. Caste system is not part of Hindu beliefs, but rather a social system. Muslims in India also live in caste system.

As mentioned by the brothers, the Caste system is an integral part of Hinduism. A central tenet of that religion is reincarnation. One's deeds in this life can determine whether one can ascend to a higher caste or become one of the Dalit (untouchables). Even the Hindu prohibition of meat is waived if one belongs to the Brahmin caste.

So we see how essential the Caste-system is to Hinduism, which is the religion most distinguished by its class structure. Hinduism was founded by a group of aristocratic warriors and priests who needed a means by which they could maintain their control upon the indigenous majority population of India.

And reading this thread makes me remember your previous claims that there is no racism among Muslims. Do you believe me now when I say that racism is something that is a product of western society, but something that is common for all people? It is simply in our nature to distrust those who are different from us.

You are right to a certain extent, but while we're on the subject of Hinduism, do you know why many Indians first converted to Islam? To escape the rigid Caste system, because Islam put forward a progressive system of social equity and sank the class barriers into the higher spiritual community, i.e. the Ummah. There was never anything quite like the Caste system in the entire history of Islam.

[gag order]

And reading this thread makes me remember your previous claims that there is no racism among Muslims.

muslims are the least racist of all peoples. it is unlikely that they would hurl racial abuse or attack someone for bieng the wrong color as is common amongst westerners.

however, on this topic i referred to some problematic issues confined to the 'employment' sector in the gulf, and i made a distinction between the employer and the public.

but ignorant as you are, you will always misunderstand..

[gag order]

now as for the alleged racism amongst the asians themselves, then it is more akin to tribalism and nationalism since it is in effect within ones own race. nonetheless it is equally deplorable.

[morbius]

As for your Morbius, Mr. know-it-all, just stick to your Serbian racist-nationalism and leave other cultures and religion for... others. Caste system, and many other ignorant practises are deeply rooted in Hinduism.

You should realize that Hinduism is the oldest living religion and that it has absorbed many things over the centuries. That's how caste system slowly crept into some of the religious beliefs of the Hindu, but I wouldn't call them "deeply rooted".
Do Hindus in UK live in casts?

There is no denying that racism exists amongst Muslims, as does tribalism and nationalism, however, it is not something that Muslims feel proud of, or Islam condones.
OK, thank you for admitting it.
Christianity does not condone racism either, yet it is present. To blame Christianity for the racism is just like blaming Islam for it.

You, on the other hand, do not only have the sickness of racism, you are actually proud of it, which you justify by hiding behind your nature/natural inclinations, etc.
Says who?
I said that racism is in our nature, not that it is OK.

[Skillganon]

Racism and Nationalism exist in the Middle East, however the treatment shown to asian in the gulf is more of racism than nationalism.

Of course the two do conflate with each other at some point where they exhibit similar characteristic, but one is different from the other.
e.g. A person may be nationalistic without being racist.

The point is both are forms of assabiyah.

Back to the topic: The way I see it is the treatment of asian in the Gulf is due to racism.

[Abuz Zubair]

You should realize that Hinduism is the oldest living religion and that it has absorbed many things over the centuries. That's how caste system slowly crept into some of the religious beliefs of the Hindu, but I wouldn't call them "deeply rooted".
Do Hindus in UK live in casts?

Back-tracking... I told you not to speak about issues you are clueless about. And yes, they still live in casts and they still force their women into marriages within the same casts.

To blame Christianity for the racism is just like blaming Islam for it. And who did?

Says who?
I said that racism is in our nature, not that it is OK.
Well, you said it's ok to limit the number Asian immigrants but not white Europeans. This is racism left, right and centre. When accused of that, you resorted to blaming your nature. Well, you're not wrong there, either, I guess. You do seem to be racist by nature.

Racism and Nationalism exist in the Middle East, however the treatment shown to asian in the gulf is more of racism than nationalism.
Have you ever lived in the gulf?

If you haven't, then this is probably the reason behind your misunderstanding. There are people in Saudi from Banu Qahtan - pure and original Arabs. If you look at them at first sight, you'll think they are Pakis or Indians. You wouldn't know they are Arabs until you ask them their names.

There are black people who are Saudi nationals and are treated better than other people from the Gulf because they are non-Saudis, not to mention Egyptians, Palestinian or Yemenis. The problem is not racism. It is nationalism, and yes it is equally wrong.

[morbius]

Back-tracking... I told you not to speak about issues you are clueless about. And yes, they still live in casts and they still force their women into marriages within the same casts.


In UK? Some Hindu guys told me completely opposite of what you are telling me.
And aren't marriages in Islam arranged as well?

Well, you said it's ok to limit the number Asian immigrants but not white Europeans. This is racism left, right and centre.
Well, if we Europeans are to become one country (and it is clearly our goal) there should be no animosity between European nations. We are trying to overcome our differences and nationalism for the sake of better future for our children in united Europe. You could really learn from our example.

[Abuz Zubair]

In UK? Some Hindu guys told me completely opposite of what you are telling me.
And aren't marriages in Islam arranged as well?
No Hindu will tell you the truth about his own marriage or how his sister got married, unless he is fully integrated and a hindu no more.

Forced marriage <> arranged marriage.

[gag order]

In UK? Some Hindu guys told me completely opposite of what you are telling me.
And aren't marriages in Islam arranged as well? .

why are you such a liar?
why make up a lie like that?

[morbius]

Forced marriage <> arranged marriage.

What makes the difference between those two in your opinion?

[Abuz Zubair]

what makes a difference between forced and choice-based marriage?

forced marriage is when (usually) a hindu says to his daughter, you are marrying this cousin of yours back home, and if you don't consider us (and yourself) dead. Physical or emotional threats, etc, to compel a person to marry.

arranged marriage is when the daughter asks the father: Can I marry this person? Or the father asks the daughter: Would you like to marry this person?

If the answer is: 'yes', the families get together to arrange a possible marriage.

If the answer is: 'no', then the father has no right to force his daughter into marrying anyone.

[morbius]

I always wondered how you guys were supposed to marry someone you like when you are not allowed to look at girls, or even talk to them.

So, what's the proper procedure? Girls initiate the whole thing the way you described? But how do you know if she is the right wife for you if you never saw her or talked to her?

Somehow I think that it's not the way it goes in reality (pardon me if I'm wrong). I think it is rather people who know each other arrange marriages between their children with them having very little or no mention in the whole matter.
If I remember correctly, gag order said that he was engaged to be married at the age of 6. Do you think that this is a proper age for making such an important decision as who to marry?

[Umm Ahmed]

You trust your parents dont you ? even if Gag order's parents arranged the marriage at an early age , there still has to be consent at the marriage ceromony.

[gag order]

If I remember correctly, gag order said that he was engaged to be married at the age of 6.

LOL,
why make up a lie like that?

[morbius]

You trust your parents dont you ? even if Gag order's parents arranged the marriage at an early age , there still has to be consent at the marriage ceromony.

Actually, my mother didn't want me to marry my wife, but I have disobeyed her and never regretted for that decision. In these matters one must decide for himself, not even his parents can choose wisely for him/her.
And do you think that gag order was mature enough to make such decision at that young age? And how could he, not knowing personally his wife to be?

[morbius]

LOL,
why make up a lie like that?

Then what are you saying in this post?
http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showpost.php?p=11174&postcount=34

[gag order]

Would parents among you still marry their children at the age of 6 today?
betrothed at 6 !!!

you idiot! i wasnt talking about me LOL..

i was correcting your choice of words: betrothed at the age of 6, as in betrothal until they are ready. and NOT 'marry' at the age of 6..
your command of english it seems, is as poor as your grasp of current affairs, science and history !

[Abuz Zubair]

This is hilarious!!! LOL poor gag_order 'betrothed' at the age of 6 by a European racist :D

[Umm Ahmed]

Seems your misunderstanding something here Morbius , consent from the boy and girl is when they actually become married at 18 , 19 or whatever age they get married at not when they are six , its like two mums sitting together watching their son and daughter playing and thinking wouldn't it be great if they both got married , thats all.

[morbius]

Seems your misunderstanding something here Morbius , consent from the boy and girl is when they actually become married at 18 , 19 or whatever age they get married at not when they are six , its like two mums sitting together watching their son and daughter playing and thinking wouldn't it be great if they both got married , thats all.

OK, but how they can reach proper decision when they don't know each other and are not allowed to get to know each other?

[mm12]

OK, but how they can reach proper decision when they don't know each other and are not allowed to get to know each other?

They are allowed to meet, talk, provided the girl has her mahram (guardian) present.

[morbius]

Is he allowed to see her face?

[Umm Ahmed]

Your not going to get this , asliving in the west we are brought up to treat each other like cars, have a test drive so to speak.
I did not have an arranged marriage but my children will InshaAllaah ( with their consent at the end of course) . So I will let those who have had arranged marriages answer your question.

[Abuz Zubair]

he's allowed to see her face, speak to her about difference things to find out what she's about and whether or not they click. Moreover, he can find out about her character from various sources, including her friends and family, so that before he commits himself to the marriage, he is fully aware of what he is going into.

This is much better way of knowing someone for marriage than to try each other out for months or years only to decide that perhaps the two of you are not compatible. God forbid if they produce offspring during their 'trial period'. Not to mention that it contravenes all religions and ethics on the face of this planet.

[morbius]

OK, thanks for the info.

[Al_Zahir_Baybars]

LOL, like going for a test drive!

Brother Ahmed, I am a car enthusiast and I treat my car very well I never took it for a test drive when I bought it though, lol oh man now I will feel awkward driving my car.

lol, jk

[Abu wakee]

While discussing human rights, even Shaykh Salman al 'awdah recognizes this problem of utter discrimination and institutionalized ethnocentrism:

...In the Gulf States and elsewhere, we need to protect the rights of expatriate workers whose sponsors abuse them and delay paying them the full compensation that is their due. We need to uphold the rights of the poor and weak. We need to protect the rights of women, about whom the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “I swear by Allah. I strongly affirm the rights of two groups who are weak: orphans and women.” [Sunan Ibn Mâjah – and authenticated by Ibn Hibbân and al-Hâkim]

Allah shows us the importance of freedom of thought, the right to hold to one’s own opinion and to express one’s culture when He says: “And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, save with such of them as commit oppression; and say: “We believe in that which has been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender.” [Sûrah al-`Ankabût: 46]

Allah speaks specifically about the rights of non-Muslims when He says: “Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who do not fight you because of your faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for indeed Allah loves those who are just.” [Sûrah al-Mumtahanah: 8]

If human rights violations in the Muslim world have been encouraged by certain right-wing extremists in the West, those violations have also been aggravated by the practical and ideological failure in the Arab world to defend human rights.

If we are not going to become wholly distracted by laying the blame on Western organizations and international breaches of human rights, we must work to correct ourselves, our culture, and our practices with respect to those human rights that we all recognize and uphold...

Link: http://islamtoday.com/showme2.cfm?cat_id=30&sub_cat_id=1116