C'mon Bruv, Give Us a Discount - "Fisabeelillah"?

[Umm]

Baba Ali's Ummah Film (http://youtube.com/watch?v=iyczVCnHloY)

It's a topic that needs addressing, Muslims being on the ponce for a discount, because it's an Islamic product. How many Muslims moan at the price of a halal takeaway, but would happily spend much more at Pizza Hut?

A brother my husband knows, he was doing a stall recently. Another brother approaches and offers to buy some CDs for 1/2 price. When the stall-owner brother tactfully suggested he buy a cheaper product instead, the brother said something like "C'mon brother! Feesabeelillah". The stall-owner even offered to knock off a couple of pounds, but not a 50% discount. As the brother is still haggling, my husband - unable to contain himself - says "How much was your belt?" Apparently had an expensive tacky designer one on!

As Baba Ali points out
1) Always wanting a discount means less money going back to Muslim businesses, and subsequently less products being developed.
2) That he would feel embarrassed to haggle over an Islamic product.
3) Asking to get something free "for the sake of Allah"

Isn't it supposed to be the other way around? Spending fisabeelillah?

I was surprised when a friend told me that Muslims haggle over the price of books on a stall. I even saw a sister selling ethinic purses for £2.50, and still sisters wanted a discount. I mean, we're not talking about spending 100's of pounds at a stall, we're talking about a measly £2.50!

[waziri]

Asalamualaykum,

I know a brother who sells quran cd's on a stall, he sells them at 2 pounds for the whole quran on one disc and still some people want a discount,and whats worse is some still want a discount even after he tells them that all proceeds are going fisabilillah.

wasalam

[1mran]

Artificially inflating prices

http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?pg=article&ln=eng&article_id=10#34

This refers to the practice of artificially inflating the price with no intention of buying, in order to deceive others, thus pushing them to add more to the price they are offering. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not artificially inflate prices.” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, see Fath al-Baari, 10/484). This is undoubtedly a form of deceit, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Double-dealing and cheating will end in Hell.” (See Silsilat al-Ahaadeeth al-Saheehah, 1057).

Many salesmen at auctions and in car salesrooms are earning unclean and haraam income because of the many haraam things that they do, such as conspiring to artificially inflate prices and deceive purchasers, or to lower the price of one of their products, or conversely pretending to be customers and raising the prices at auctions to deceive and cheat.

[Yasir]

I was surprised when a friend told me that Muslims haggle over the price of books on a stall.I think it's often just the informal nature of it all, otherwise I don't think anyone would consider haggling in say Waterstones.

However, it's also not very nice when some Muslim businesses overcharge you, whilst giving the impression that they're giving you a discount. Say they have a product they would normally sell for £50, if you'd ask them 'Excuse me, how much is this?', they'd say "£70... but seeing as it's you, I'll do it for £60!"

[Abuz Zubair]

imagine haggling at a petrol station...

[Ibn Adam]

Yeah, but I get the special "White man tax."

"It's, uh, 75 Riyals."
"My friend bought the exact same one from you yesterday for 60!"
"Yes, but you're white."

[Abuz Zubair]

its a double-edge sword being a white man isn't it?

[Ibn Adam]

Swings and roundabouts, I guess.

I need to perfect my Syrian accent, as I've been told I could probably pass for one, that'd insha' Allah get me more marketable prices.

"Anta Sūrī?"
"Yes, very sorry :confused: "

[nomad]

aSSALAMU ALAYKUM,

[abu_ibrahim]

I have worked in 4 Muslim companies, and they were terrible experiences. I don't want to generalise, but they take advantage big time and moan a lot. Sometimes, my opinion of the brother changes after working with them.

I knew one brother who was told that if he worked over time (2-3 hours daily), he could double his salary with the annual bonus. Instead they gave him only £400 for the whole year as a bonus, instead of the £13,000 he was expecting. He used to finish at 6pm, but go home at 8 or 9pm, thinking his earnings would double.

[Umm]

Say they have a product they would normally sell for £50, if you'd ask them 'Excuse me, how much is this?', they'd say "£70... but seeing as it's you, I'll do it for £60!"

Yes, that happens a lot. "I give you very good price...cheapest price.":rolleyes:

[Yasir]

Instead they gave him only £400 for the whole year as a bonus, instead of the £13,000 he was expecting.Wouldn't he have got paid monthly though? So he'd know not to expect a lump sum at the end of the year?

[Umm]

I think it meant he got paid monthly, but did the extra work, expecting the bonus to be paid as a lump sum at the end of the year. This shows the importance of having contracts drawn up, especially when dealing with unscrupulous people.

A brother once did some work for his close friend's brother in law. The friend said that he would be a guarantor for the money, so the brother didn't get a contract signed and witnessed, as he usually did. Instead he did the work, and the jaahil Paki brother-in-law refused to pay. The "friend" suddenly decides that he isn't responsible to pay for the work either. The brother never got paid, and that was the end of their long friendship.

If the brother hadn't been a molvi, they wouldn't have dared to con him.

[1mran]

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Don't nurse grudge and don't bid him out for raising the price and don't nurse aversion or enmity and don't enter into a transaction when the others have entered into that transaction and be as fellow-brothers and servants of Allah. A Muslim is the brother of a Muslim. He neither oppresses him nor humiliates him nor looks down upon him. The piety is here, (and while saying so) he pointed towards his chest thrice. It is a serious evil for a Muslim that he should look down upon his brother Muslim. All things of a Muslim are inviolable for his brother in faith: his blood, his wealth and his honour. [Sahih Muslim, Book 032, Number 6219]

[Muhammed]

As salamu alaykum

Many Muslims copy/burn Islamic Audio/Video even after the production company clearly states that the material is copyright and the money spent on the product goes back to the Da'wah. Some reply to this by saying "You can't put a price on Islam"

Is it wrong to copy/burn copyright products??

[gag order]

two scenarios:

there should be no copyright on islamic material since in the interest of dawah, this material should be disseminated freely and without restrictions. whatever is spent in producing and distributing this material is spent in allah's cause, so there should not be any attempt to reimburse the cost by protecting the content so that it can only be bought.

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copyright material ensures that the proceeds go towards improving the quality of the material, or enriching its content or financing further expansion to propagate the message. in the interest of dawah muslims should not undermine this by making the content freely available thus inhibiting growth. more importantly, if the proceeds are earmarked for a campaign or charity then to reject the copyright would undermine the purpose for which the material is sold

[ykhan]

two scenarios:

there should be no copyright on islamic material since in the interest of dawah, this material should be disseminated freely and without restrictions. whatever is spent in producing and distributing this material is spent in allah's cause, so there should not be any attempt to reimburse the cost by protecting the content so that it can only be bought.

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copyright material ensures that the proceeds go towards improving the quality of the material, or enriching its content or financing further expansion to propagate the message. in the interest of dawah muslims should not undermine this by making the content freely available thus inhibiting growth. more importantly, if the proceeds are earmarked for a campaign or charity then to reject the copyright would undermine the purpose for which the material is sold

Scenario:

A brother/sister has spent years studying Arabic to be able to translate books.

They then take six months of their life to translate a beneficial book for example.

They have to maintain themselves AND their families so they sell the books for a normal price say $15 for example.

If you then scan that book and upload it for free and DO NOT send even a nickel to the author, is that or is that not stealing/oppression on him and his family....?

And you then wonder why such and such a book has not been translated...?

Just a thought..................

[Muhammed]

as salamu alaykum

Question:
We copy religious tapes and give them away for free or sell them very cheaply in order to distribute them more widely, but the tapes are protected by copyright, and our aim is to spread knowledge and da’wah.
Similarly with CDs, it may be difficult and expensive to get hold of original copies. And the purpose of what we do is to spread knowledge.

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

Copyright or the rights of authors, inventors and producers, and other financial and moral rights, belong to the owners of these works and it is not permissible to transgress against them or undermine them without the permission of their owners. That includes tapes, CDs and books.

Reference may be made concerning that to what was written by Shaykh Bakr ibn ‘Abd-Allaah Abu Zayd (may Allaah preserve him) about copyright in his book Fiqh al-Nawaazil, 2/101-187.

The Standing Committee was asked: Is it permissible for me to record (a copy of) a tape and sell it without asking permission from its author, or from the publisher if the author is no longer alive? Is it permissible to make many copies of a book and sell them? Is it permissible to make a copy of a book and not sell it, rather keep it for myself, if it is marked copyright; do I have to ask for permission or not?

They replied: There is nothing wrong with making copies of useful tapes and selling them, or making copies of books and selling them, because that is helping to spread knowledge, unless their authors have stated that this is not allowed, in which case their permission must be sought.

End quote from Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 13/187

The Committee was also asked: I work in the field of computers, and since I started working I have been making copies of programs to work with them. I have been doing that without purchasing an original copy of these programs, knowing that these programs carry warnings against making copies and their copyright is protected, like the phrase “all rights reserved” which appears on some books. The author of the program may be a Muslim or a kaafir. My question is: is it permissible to make copies in this manner or not?

They replied: It is not permissible to make copies of programs whose authors have forbidden the making of copies without their permission, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Muslims are bound by their conditions.” And he (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever reaches a persmittible thing first has more right to it.” It does not matter whether the author of the program is a Muslim or a kaafir who is not in a state of war with Islam, because the rights of a kaafir who is not in a state of war with Islam are to be respected like the rights of a Muslim.

End quote from Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 13/188.

There is also a statement from the Islamic Fiqh Council concerning intellectual property rights in which it says:

Firstly:

Trade names, trademarks, copyright and patents are all rights which belong exclusively to their owners. In modern times they have come to have a considerable financial value. These rights are recognized according to sharee’ah, and they should not be violated.

…

Thirdly:

Copyright and patents are protected by sharee’ah. Their owners have the right to buy or sell them and nobody has the right to violate these rights.

Undoubtedly the authors of these tapes and CDs have expended time, effort and money to produce them, and there is nothing in sharee’ah to indicate that they should not take the profits that result from this work. The one who transgresses against their rights is wronging them and consuming their wealth unlawfully.

If it is permissible to transgress against these rights, then these companies would stop producing these things, because it beings no returns. Their employees would have no motive to work, and undoubtedly stopping this work would result in a great deal of good being withheld from people. So it is appropriate that the scholars have stated that it is haraam to transgress against these rights.

This is the basic ruling, but in some cases it may be permissible to make copies without the author’s permission. That applies in two cases:

1 – If something is not available in the marketplace, if there is a need for it and it is charitable distribution, not for sale or for making a profit.

2 – If there is a great need for it and its authors are asking for more than its price, and they have already made enough money to cover the cost of producing this program with a reasonable profit – which is to be decided by people of experience. In that case, if it serves the interests of the Muslims, it is permissible to copy it, so as to ward off harm. But that is subject to the condition that it not be sold for personal gain.

And Allaah is the Source of strength.

You can contact the companies which produced the material and tell them of the charitable purpose behind it and ask them for permission to make copies, or give them an appropriate price.

[Skillganon]

IT is very noticeable that somethings are too over-priced (or one can say out of the person price ranged). I don't tend to buy these books or anything so I guess I don't benefit from it.

Something are priced correctly and I don't see the reason why people need to haggle example over £2.50.

Anyway...I guess sometime I will start with my Islamic book collection..soon.

So far I learned most thing (basic) over the net...free articles, books, sites, video and audio are available so one can make use of them.

[Mesmerise]

I think asking for discounts over something which is so cheap like £2.50 is absurd, but in certain circumstances it is appropriate, for example when you go abroad to places such as India/Pakistan/Saudi/Bangladesh etc, the local store owners recognise the fact that you are a foreigner and therefore put their prices up, at that time, you should haggle loads :D

[salafiya]

Assalam Alaikum

Well, the thing with Pizza Hut is that they don't bargain. With a lot of bazaars, they raise the price on purpose because of the fact that they know that their customers will bargain.

I think a rule of thumb for shopping is that usually the seller will not allow his/her product to be a loss (ya3nee, no profit). So bargain as much as you can (with Muslims, if you go to Target, you'll prolly be kicked out).

But if something seems like a fair price (and it IS a fair price)...and the person needs to make a living off of that, don't bargain.

[Scented Blood]

I once went to Pronto print to get some photocopies and there was this guy from the mosque committee getting some done. The bill came to around £33 and he turned to the woman behind the counter and said ‘Il give you £20!!’

I was cracking up! She had to call the manager down and he decided that because all the copying had been done they couldn’t take them back so he told the guy to pay the £20 and never go there again!