Ghazali ALLAH’S TRANSCENDENCE

[abdul muntaqim]

THE CREED OF AHL AL-SUNNAH
an explanation of the two declarations of faith which constitute one of the pillars of islam

Abu Hamid al-Ghazali

Translated by Dawood Suleiman

ALLAH’S TRANSCENDENCE:
He is not a body with a form, nor a substance with dimension and measure. He does not resemble corporeal things, neither in having dimension nor in being divisible. He is neither substance, nor can any substance manifest itself within Him. Nor is He a quality that applies to a substance, nor can any such qualities apply to Him.
He resembles nothing that exists, nor does anything that exists resemble Him. Nothing compares to him, and He can be compared to nothing else.
He cannot be quantified or measured. He is not encompassed by direction. The heavens and the Earth cannot contain him.
He is ascendant on His Throne in the way that He said, and with the meaning that He intended, in a manner that transcends physical contact with, or being mounted upon, the Throne, and that does not imply position, manifestation, or movement. The Throne does not support him. On the contrary, both the Throne and the angels who carry it are supported by His benevolent power and are compelled by His grasp.
He is above the Throne and the heavens to the farthest reaches of the Earth in a manner that does not imply any proximity to the Throne and the heavens, or any remoteness from the Earth and its depths. On the contrary, He is elevated above the Throne and the heavens to the same degree that He is elevated above the Earth and its depths, and, in spite of this, He is close to everything in existence. He is closer to His slave than that slave’s own jugular vein. He is a witness to all things.
This is because His nearness in no way resembles the nearness of bodily things, just like His essence does not resemble the essences of bodily things.
He does not manifest Himself in anything, nor does anything else manifest itself in Him. He is glorified above being contained in space or defined by time. He existed before creating time and space, and He is now just as He was before.
He is distinct in His attributes from His creation. Nothing other than Himself is contained in His essence, nor is His essence contained in anything else. He is sanctified above being subject to movement or change. Nothing occurs within him, nor is He subject to transient qualities. He remains with His complete and noble attributes transcendent above any increase or decrease.
Reason testifies to His existence, and in the eternal abode of the Hereafter, He will be seen by the righteous. This will be a blessing for them from His benevolence, as gazing upon His countenance will be the ultimate fulfillment of their bliss.

I need a little help here. Is he confirming Allah is above the throne?

[Abuz Zubair]

This is called negative theology:

He is not a body with a form, nor a substance with dimension and measure. He does not resemble corporeal things, neither in having dimension nor in being divisible. He is neither substance, nor can any substance manifest itself within Him. Nor is He a quality that applies to a substance, nor can any such qualities apply to Him.

He resembles nothing that exists, nor does anything that exists resemble Him. Nothing compares to him, and He can be compared to nothing else.
He cannot be quantified or measured. He is not encompassed by direction. The heavens and the Earth cannot contain him.

He is ascendant on His Throne in the way that He said, and with the meaning that He intended, in a manner that transcends physical contact with, or being mounted upon, the Throne, and that does not imply position, manifestation, or movement. The Throne does not support him. On the contrary, both the Throne and the angels who carry it are supported by His benevolent power and are compelled by His grasp.

He is above the Throne and the heavens to the farthest reaches of the Earth in a manner that does not imply any proximity to the Throne and the heavens, or any remoteness from the Earth and its depths. On the contrary, He is elevated above the Throne and the heavens to the same degree that He is elevated above the Earth and its depths, and, in spite of this, He is close to everything in existence. He is closer to His slave than that slave’s own jugular vein. He is a witness to all things.

This is because His nearness in no way resembles the nearness of bodily things, just like His essence does not resemble the essences of bodily things.

He does not manifest Himself in anything, nor does anything else manifest itself in Him. He is glorified above being contained in space or defined by time. He existed before creating time and space, and He is now just as He was before.

He is distinct in His attributes from His creation. Nothing other than Himself is contained in His essence, nor is His essence contained in anything else. He is sanctified above being subject to movement or change. Nothing occurs within him, nor is He subject to transient qualities. He remains with His complete and noble attributes transcendent above any increase or decrease.

Reason testifies to His existence, and in the eternal abode of the Hereafter, He will be seen by the righteous. This will be a blessing for them from His benevolence, as gazing upon His countenance will be the ultimate fulfillment of their bliss.

[Logic lover]

So, are you suggesting that Al-Gazzali is not confirming Allah's Names and Attributes as should be confirmed?

[Abuz Zubair]

No actually, I wasn't... I was only pointing out the amount negative terms present in his writing.

[abdul muntaqim]

Jazak Allah khair for pointing that out bro, but that didnt answer my orginal question.

[Abuz Zubair]

Sorry, I will have to read the Arabic to judge, but I don't think al-Ghazzali would affirm literally that Allah is above His creation... He would make tafweedh - after ditching 'ilm al-kalam altogether - but I don't think he would affirm it literally, Allahu Alam.

[justabro]

whats the source for this?

[ali]

whats the source for this?

they get it from his iljaam, but im not sure

[abdul muntaqim]

What of this?

Ibn Abī Ya‘lā, T.abaqāt al-H.anābila (2:296-297): Abū al-Fad.l al-Tamīmī related that Imām Ah.mad said: “Allāh is ever Exalted (‘ālī) and Elevated (rafī‘) without beginning, before He created the Throne. He is above everything (huwa fawqa kulli shay’), and He is exalted over everything (huwa al-‘ālī ‘alā kulli shay’). He only specified the Throne because of its particular significance which makes it different from everything else, as the Throne is the best of all things and the most elevated of them. Allāh therefore praised Himself by saying that He established Himself over the Throne, that is, He exalted Himself over it (‘alayhi ‘alā). It is impermissible to say that He established Himself with a contact or a meeting with it. Exalted is Allāh above that! Allāh is not subject to change, substitution, nor limits, whether before or after the creation of the Throne.”

[Abuz Zubair]

Tamimis are not to be trusted on Imam Ahmad's 'Aqida, for the following reasons as I stated:

1) Rizq Allah al-Tamimi, whose entire Hanbali family was intimately close to the Ash’aris, and in particular, al-Baqillani, and hence, the Ash’ari influence on the Tamimis. It was under this influence that Rizq’s uncle, Abul-Fadhl al-Tamimi wrote his book: al-I’tiqad, where he, instead of transmitting narrations from Imam Ahmad, gave his own view of what Imam Ahmad believed. Hence, through out the book, he would say: ‘… and Imam Ahmad used to say, such and such’, attributing to the Imam, things he was never reported to have said, in any of the books of Sunan by any of his students.

Due to Rizq Allah’s odd love for the Ash’aris, he had immense hatred for the Sheikh al-Hanabila, al-Qadhi Abu Ya’la, about whom he said: ‘He urinated upon the Hanbalis in such a way that even the ocean cannot purify it!’

Yet, Rizq Allah is no match for al-Qadhi Abu Ya’la, and anyone slightly familiar with the history and biographies of Hanbalis knows and realizes that. Abu Ya’la is undoubtedly the leading authority in the Madhab, in spite of being a contemporary of Rizq Allah, and authored various books in the usul and the furu’ of the Madhab, such that the Madhab historically remains indebted to him. How can Rizq Allah’s status in the Madhab by compared to Abu Ya’la, while the former only contributed two books to the Madhab, and one of them is merely a Sharh of a manual in Fiqh?

Moreover, Rizq Allah was boycotted by some of the Hanbali Imams for his closeness to the Ash’aris which resulted in his hatred for Abu Ya’la.

Ibn ‘Asakir reports in his Tarikh Madinat Dimashq (52/356), that when Imam Ibn al-Banna al-Hanbali visited Rizq Allah al-Tamimi and informed him of the death of Abu Ya’la, Rizq Allah replied: ‘May Allah not be merciful to him! He defecated upon the Hanbalis, such that it would not be washed until the Day of Resurrection!’ Upon hearing this, Ibn al-Banna al-Hanbali boycotted him until he died.

Yet, Rizq Allah al-Tamimi, is no a match for either of the leading authorities of the Hanbalis, neither Abu Ya’la, nor Ibn al-Banna.

Having said that, even Rizq Allah al-Tamimi, along with his entire Tamimi family are considered anthropomorphists according to the author’s and the modern day Ash’ari standards. For Abul-Fadhl al-Tamimi, like the early Ash’aris, explicitly affirms many of the Attributes of Allah, saying that Allah has a Face, literally and not allegorically, just as He has Two Hands. (al-I’tiqad p. 17-23)

An interesting point to note is that the author, elsewhere, often refers to the ‘Rizq Allah family’ and the ‘Tamimi family’ as if they were two different families. However, anyone who has a scant knowledge of Tabaqat of Hanbalis, knows that Rizq Allah was from the Tamimi family, and not that there were two different families. This, of course, highlights the bogus claim of the author to Hanbalism.http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=840

[abubakr]

Asalamu alaykum

As far as affirming touching/contact or meeting is concerned then I think the safest position would be to neither affirm nor negate it as there is nothing from the quran and sunnah. rather touching/contact is from the kafiya which ahle sunnah make tafwid of. Allah being upon hsi throne doesnt necessitate touching/contact.

Perhaps akhi AZ could clarify further

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

Asalamu alaykum

As far as affirming touching/contact or meeting is concerned then I think the safest position would be to neither affirm nor negate it as there is nothing from the quran and sunnah. rather touching/contact is from the kafiya which ahle sunnah make tafwid of. Allah being upon hsi throne doesnt necessitate touching/contact.

Perhaps akhi AZ could clarify further

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=2559

and this:

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=1991

should help akhee