Nabi (saw) noor is made From Allah's noor!!

[abubakr]

Look at the following link where Pir Qadir Jilani tries to prove that the hadith of Jabir is authentic and that Nabi saw's noor was created from Allah's own noor.

Isnt this belief shirk as how can the prophet have Allah's noor inside him?

(perhaps bro bilal can look at this instead of concentrating on minor issues such as raful yadein

[abubakr]

Sorry the link is

http://www.yanabi.com/mediadb/player.cfm?file_id=5708

[joefso]

I can't see the video but I know it implys the light, not Allaah Ta'ala's nur. It's meant that it's like a lamp, read the tafsir of qurtubi, jaludin and attabri on the verse. Ibn Kathir says it's quran.

"There has come to you a Light from Allah, and a Manifest Book" (Qur’an 5:15).

According to these mufassirs it means the Prophet Sallaho Alayhi Wasalam.

[ibnfaruk]

Assalamualaikum to all, Sufis are Dhahiris when it suits them , may Allah swt protect us from their inconsistant interpretation of Islam and guide us to what is beloved to Him.

salams

[abubakr]

It clearly says he created the prophets nur from his own nur!!

[joefso]

dude,

on the frontpage you can read the ahadith:

"O Jaabir! Verily, before the creation of anything else, Almighty Allah created the Noor of your Nabi from His Noor." (Muwahibul Laduniya; Zirkani Shareef)

Noor of Allaah does not show that this is an attribute of Allaah, it's a ascriptive construction, also know as idafa tashrief or an ascription of ennoblement, like the title Bayt Allaah, this doesn't mean Allaah lives inside of it right (auzobillah)? It's a name for nobility, less that it's a divine attribute.

Read the tafsir of the verse I showed, you can start here (http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=5&tAyahNo=15&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0).

[abubakr]

hmmm akhi you sound familiar if im not mistaken I think you post on yanabi or shall i say yashirk forums and you agree with their beliefs??

[abubakr]

The ayat you gave shows how the light ie Nabi saw refers to him being a light of guidance not created from light.

[joefso]

yes I'm active at yanabi, and I'm reading lots of forums. I don't refer to myself sunni, wahabi, salafi or whatever, just Muslim. And I only follow Haqiqa.


The ayat you gave shows how the light ie Nabi saw refers to him being a light of guidance not created from light.
Yes, the ahadith confirms that. See post #6. So, what it actually means, the Prophet Sallaho Alayhi Wasalam is nur and bashr, like a ruby between stones.

[abubakr]

yes I'm active at yanabi, and I'm reading lots of forums. I don't call myself sunni, wahabi, salafi or whatever, just Muslim. And I only follow Haqiqa.


Yes, the hadith confirms that. See post #6. So, what it actually means, the Prophet Sallaho Alayhi Wasalam is nur and bashr, like a ruby between stones.

Simple question is nabi saw made from noor?

[joefso]

ofcourse not. And the folks at yanabi don't believe that either, go and ask them. They will confirm what I said.

[abubakr]

http://www.razaacademy.com/noor.html

I think it more than obvious what the barelvis believe ie that he saw is made from noor

[joefso]

I read the text, and It says: "The Aqeeda of the Ahle Sunnat Wa Jama'at is that he is both Noor and a human being.". So this is what they believe, the noor as an enoblement. It doesn't conflict with the explanation of the mufasirs. If so please tell me where the shoe bumps.

[suhail]

Assalaam Alykum,

And you read just one line. Please read that whole thing before we come to any conclusion. I am cuttin and pasting the lines now.

"The Aqeeda of the Ahle Sunnat Wa Jama'at is that he is both Noor and a human being.The being and existence of the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) is even before that of human beings, but when he came into this world he came in the garb of a human being."

It doesnt mean what you say brother Joe. It says what abu bakr was trying to say that they consider Prophet Sallhu Alyhe wa sallam to be a noor i.e. made of noor but he came in a garb of a human being. There is no misunderstanding here. It is a clear cut text.

Now another of the quote from that article

" We know that Hazrat Jibraeel (alaihis salaam) is made of Noor but when he used to appear before Hazrat Maryam (radi Allahu anha) he used to appear in the form of a human being."

What does this mean?

" Sayyida Halima Sa'adiya (radi Allahu anha), the wet-nurse of the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam), believed the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) to be Noor. She said that when she used to feed the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) milk in his infancy, she never felt the need for a light in her house. (Bayaanul Miladun Nabwi; Tafseer Mazhari)."

and this?

" Hazrat Jabir bin Abdullah Ansari (radi Allahu anhu) reports: I asked: "O Prophet of Allah (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam), What did the Almighty Allah first create?" The Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) replied: "Allah first created my Noor (Light) of His Noor. This Noor travelled about according to the Will of Allah. At that time, there was no Heaven, Hell, Lawh (Divine Tablet), Pen, Earth, Skies, Sun, Moon, Jinn or Human Beings. When He decided to create, He divided that Noor into four parts. From one part He created the Pen, from the second, the Lawh and from the third, he made the Arsh (Throne).
"He divided the fourth part into a further four parts. From one, He created those Angels who carry the Arsh, from the second, the Kursi (Divine Chair) and from the third, He created the Angels.
"He again divided the remaining parts into a further four parts. From one, He created the skies. The second was used in creating the planets. From the third, Heaven and Earth were created.
"Once again, He divided the fourth part into a further four parts. From one part He created the power with which the believers see. From the second, He created in the hearts of the Believers the Noor of Marifat. From the third, He created in the tongues of the Believers, Noor, so that they can read the Kalima of Tauheed". (Dalaa'il-un-Nubuwwat, Imam Baihaqi)
This astonishing Hadith Shareef proves that Sayyiduna Rasoolullah (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) is the life of this world and everything in it. When he is the life of this world, then everything that happens in it is clear to him and nothing is concealed from him. Who then can deny that he is not Noor (light)? "

And this?

Brother Barelwis are known to have this faith that the Prophet Sallahu Alyhe wa sallam is made of noor and he not a human. It is known to everyone. And yanabi forum believes the same thing. They dont hide this thing because that is what they believe.

Jazakallah Khair
Suhail

[joefso]

Assalaam Alykum,


Wa'alaykoem assalaamu wa raghmatoelahi wa barakathu,


And you read just one line. Please read that whole thing before we come to any conclusion. I am cuttin and pasting the lines now.

"The Aqeeda of the Ahle Sunnat Wa Jama'at is that he is both Noor and a human being.The being and existence of the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) is even before that of human beings, but when he came into this world he came in the garb of a human being."

It doesnt mean what you say brother Joe. It says what abu bakr was trying to say that they consider Prophet Sallhu Alyhe wa sallam to be a noor i.e. made of noor but he came in a garb of a human being. There is no misunderstanding here. It is a clear cut text.

I don't believe it's Allah's noor as in a divine attribute. Nor does the text imply it is. What the text imply's is that RasoolAllaah Sallaho ALayhi Wasalam light is the most powerful one in the whole universe. Why? Because I believe(guess you do to), RassoolAllaah Sallaho Alayhi Wasalam is the nearest created being to Allaah Subhanu Wa Talah, however he is obvious not the only one. Malaikya are made of nur, The Quran is nur, the spirits of us human beings are nur, and imaan is nur. So, it depends upon your faith, ilm and virtue.


Now another of the quote from that article

" We know that Hazrat Jibraeel (alaihis salaam) is made of Noor but when he used to appear before Hazrat Maryam (radi Allahu anha) he used to appear in the form of a human being."

What does this mean?


That angels are not bashr. RasoolAllaah Sallaho Alayhi Wasalam is nur and bashr. Like a ruby between stones.


" Sayyida Halima Sa'adiya (radi Allahu anha), the wet-nurse of the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam), believed the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) to be Noor. She said that when she used to feed the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) milk in his infancy, she never felt the need for a light in her house. (Bayaanul Miladun Nabwi; Tafseer Mazhari)."

and this?


Lol, ofcourse, not physical light, but it shows how love is illuminated trough it. Her satisfaction of feeding him Sallaho Alayhi Wasalam, her love for him, altough she was a nurse, she loved him like his son. Who wouldn't?

Let me explain how I understand it. For example, Fatimah found a deal of solace and comfort, in Ali Radi Allaah Anhu, who was about two years older than she, she found a "brother" and a friend who somehow took the place of her own brother al-Qasim who had died in his infancy. Her other brother Abdullah, known as the Good and the Pure, who was born after her, also died in his infancy. However in none of the people in her father's household did Fatimah find the carefree joy and happiness which she enjoyed with her sisters. She was an unusually sensitive child for her age.

So what I'm trying to say, it means she is happy. RasoolAllah Sallaho ALayhi wasalam gave brightness in darkness and emptiness.


" Hazrat Jabir bin Abdullah Ansari (radi Allahu anhu) reports: I asked: "O Prophet of Allah (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam), What did the Almighty Allah first create?" The Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) replied: "Allah first created my Noor (Light) of His Noor. This Noor travelled about according to the Will of Allah. At that time, there was no Heaven, Hell, Lawh (Divine Tablet), Pen, Earth, Skies, Sun, Moon, Jinn or Human Beings. When He decided to create, He divided that Noor into four parts. From one part He created the Pen, from the second, the Lawh and from the third, he made the Arsh (Throne).
"He divided the fourth part into a further four parts. From one, He created those Angels who carry the Arsh, from the second, the Kursi (Divine Chair) and from the third, He created the Angels.
"He again divided the remaining parts into a further four parts. From one, He created the skies. The second was used in creating the planets. From the third, Heaven and Earth were created.
"Once again, He divided the fourth part into a further four parts. From one part He created the power with which the believers see. From the second, He created in the hearts of the Believers the Noor of Marifat. From the third, He created in the tongues of the Believers, Noor, so that they can read the Kalima of Tauheed". (Dalaa'il-un-Nubuwwat, Imam Baihaqi)
This astonishing Hadith Shareef proves that Sayyiduna Rasoolullah (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) is the life of this world and everything in it. When he is the life of this world, then everything that happens in it is clear to him and nothing is concealed from him. Who then can deny that he is not Noor (light)? "

And this?

Brother Barelwis are known to have this faith that the Prophet Sallahu Alyhe wa sallam is made of noor and he not a human. It is known to everyone. And yanabi forum believes the same thing. They dont hide this thing because that is what they believe.

Jazakallah Khair
Suhail

Earth, Sky, Sun, Moon, Human, Djin etc.. is this creation the Nur of Allaah as in divine part? In sense of, ennoblement of Allaah Ta'ala His Power it is, but literally nur? I guess no. For example it's nur when we say Kalima of Tawhid, but literaly? No, right? It's a ennoblement. For example when someone embraces Islam, somtimes people say, I see Nur in his face, this is a ennoblement. They love this person because Allaah Subhanu Wa Talah loves him! He guided this person. Bashar means created from clay(i.e fundamental attachment to earth), we are not equal to RasoolAllaah Sallaho Alayhi Wasalam if you add light to it, as an empathize, you ennoble the creation. As RasoolAllah Sallaho Alayhi Wasalam is best of creation, he is most noble of all.

Words can't describe people complete[that's why some people poet to express their feelings], you have to witness this person to understand them in reality. Perhaps you know this saying, in Holland it's known, the saying is: A picture can say more then one thousands words.


This is my point of view.

Djazak Allaah && wa'alaykoem asslaamu wa raghmatoelahi wa barakathu

[suhail]

Assalaam Alykum,

Brother you are confusing things here. What they are talking about is a literal noor of Allah that is his essence. While what you are talking about is a methaphoric meaning of noor which is totally different.

I am saying this with experience about barelvis because i have lived with them for all my life. They are not talking about a metaphoric meaning in that article. Maybe a knowledgable brother can point out more stuff than me.

Jazakallah Khair
Suhail

[joefso]

I don't know them all my life, but, I read the 'Doctrine on Prophet Sllaho Alayhi Wa Salam' section', on the forums. And I never found any of the appreciated members saying physical creation of nur as in literal. Just to make sure, I'm Insh'Allaah tomorrow going visit a barlewi mosk, and ask them in person.

[abubakr]

Imam Suyuti said the hadith had no isnaad and al-Ghumari the sufi said it was fabricated.

see the following link for extra info:

http://www.siratemustaqeem.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3877&highlight=noor

[waziri]

Asalamualaykum,


Akhi Joe word of advice, keep well away from those people on that forum they promote shirk and biddah and are actively calling to such.

If you value your eman you will take my advice.

wasalam

[joefso]

Assalaamu alaykoem wa raghmatoelahi wa barakathu,


I went to berlewi Masjid, and they didn't affirm that RassolAllaah Sallaho Alayhi Wasalam was made of nur in literal sense, as in a divine attribute of Allaah. By the way, Pakistanis are friendly people and I like their taste of food. They are traditional people, I like that i.e eating on the floor.


Brother waziri, I'm going to be honest, lots of people say such and such is sect and deviant. Keep away from such and such ....... you'r putting yourself in a box if you do such a thing at a level of a layman. I don't put my faith in human hands, so I can only accept the truth and what my intellect can handle. And I can only accept from those who relate what is against them and what is for them. Therefore, I don't boycot anyone, and keep on listening what every Muslim has to say. If you assume that this damages someone imaan, then I guess such level of imaan is not much of value.


As a final word, I would like to thank you for your advise and Insh'Allaah you won't forget me in your dua's.


Djazak Allaah && wa'alaykoem assalaamu wa raghmatoelahi wa barakathu

[abubakr]

Asalamu alaykum

akhi the barelvis may not believe that nabi saw possesses a divine attribute of Allah however, the point is that they do believe nabi saw is made from noor I too have spoken to many barelvis and they have confirmed this. If the barelvis believed that nabi saw being a light is metaphorical then there would be no difference between the belief of ahle sunnah and the barelvis. However, this is not the case as you have barelvis accusing us of disprespecting the prophet saw as we dont believe he is physical noor.

the hadith of Jabir is a fabricated as mentioned before the hadith it self gives the impression that nabi saw possesses nur from the nur of Allah whihc is obviously not acceptable. As for barelvis saying that its like saying Bayt Allah then this is just barelvi taweel of the hadith. Perhaps someone with greater arabic skills can elaborate on this point.

The barelvis in bulk are mushrikeen as they make dua to other than Allah, they believe nabi saw is omnipresent (hadhir nadhir) and therefore believe that he has knowledge of all the unseen. some of them also believe in salat ul ghousia where they pray towards the grave of sheikh abdul Qadir Jilani and ask him for help. This shirk is refelcted all on their yanabi forum.

[Abu Maryam PK]

Lets start an academic debate about whether the hadith of jaabir is ok, viziviz its position in the science of hadith. If you are willing i shall start examinig the narrators on this forum. Anyone for it?

[Abu Maryam PK]

Please read:
http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6670&highlight=%DD%E6%DE%E5+%E5%E6%C7%C1
for research on the hadith of jaabir.

[Abu Maryam PK]

The above link is a very comprehensive research. I would like to translate it in detail in coming days insha'allah

[abubakr]

Asalamu alaykum

that would be brilliant akhi.

[abubakr]

Just to add some focus to the discussion Gf Haddad has written the following on the hadith of Jabir:

http://www.abc.se/~m9783/fiqhi/fiqha_e30.html

[Abu Maryam PK]

Guerss what i had already started translating when i accidently lost all i had written. I will restart soo insha'allah.
Just to add some focus to the discussion Gf Haddad has written the following on the hadith of Jabir:

http://www.abc.se/~m9783/fiqhi/fiqha_e30.html (http://www.abc.se/%7Em9783/fiqhi/fiqha_e30.html)

Go the page and see the "level" of scholarship of this mushrik:
Zahir (Ihsan Ilahi), a leader of the Wahhabi-influenced Deobandi school and declared enemy of the Barelwi school of Ahl al-Sunna in Lahore, India,
Allamah Ehsaan Elahi Zaheer was a deobandi. Pardon me , but he has a casette "Radd e deoband". He was cheif of Markazi Jamiat Alhle Hadith.

Also the geography of Lahore happens to lie in Pakistan, not India.
`Abd al-Razzaq (d. 211) narrates it in his Musannaf according to Qastallani in al-Mawahib al-laduniyya (1:55) and Zarqani in his Sharh al-mawahib (1:56 of the Matba`a al-`amira edition in Cairo). There is no doubt as to the reliability of `Abd al-Razzaq as a narrator. Bukhari took 120 narrations from him, Muslim 400.
Abdul Razzaq, the Imam has a book on takhrij and musannaf also. The narration is present in neither. Abdur Razzaq's memory became weak in his latter years. The narrations he narrated after memory loss (iktilaat) are not correct as said by Imam Ahmed. (See Risaalah fil taraveeh, by Sh Albaani). the first thing Haddad should do is prove that Abdulrazzaq narrated it (which he can't) and second to show that he narrated it before ikhtilaat, since he is the only one supposed to narrate it.
Abd al-Hayy al-Lucknawi (d. 1304) the Indian hadith scholar cites it in his al-Athar al-marfu`a fi al-akhbar al-mawdu`a (p. 33-34 of the Lahore edition) and says: "The primacy (awwaliyya) of the Muhammadan light (al-nur al-muhammadi) is established from the narration of `Abd al-Razzaq, as well as its definite priority over all created things."
As said else where Lukhnawi can be cparicious at times, though generally he is not muta'assib. This means he didnot care to recheck his copy of Musannaf Abdirrazzaq.
The judgments on this narration vary greatly among the scholars.
Well he himself noted that Sufees like Ghummarie also deny the existence of this narration.
JOKE:
The Barelvis have recently said the have found a manscript of Musannaf Abdilrazzaq in Afghanistan, which contains this narration. Their sufi brethren in UAE haven published the "updated" version.
Watch this space for more on that.

[Abu Maryam PK]

http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vb/showthread.php?t=71477
One Humairi from UAE auqaf dept has published Musannaf Abdilrazzaq from a manuscript the barelvis "found" in afghanistan.
The fact that it is a lie can be seen from
1) The script of the transcriber is modern and not old, e.g. words like "Zuhri" and "Tawoos" are written in modern script, not like the script of 10th century hijri, when it is supposed to be written in baghdad!
2) Another muta'assib hanafi (who did tahreef in other books of hadith, or atleast spread it) by the name of Habibur rahman Ala'adhami has also puvlished musannaf with his research. Even he did not mention it.

This shows that the hadith of Alnoor Almuhammadi (light of the Prophet salallahi=oalaihiwasallam) was never in musannaf abdirrazaq. Thats why barelvis had to resort to "update" it in the 15th century hijri.

"Whovever ascribes a lie to me knowingly, should find his seat in the Fire" (Bukhari Muslim)

[abubakr]

Asalamu alaykum

Akhi could you post your findings.

Jazakallah

[Abu Maryam PK]

Asalamu alaykum

Akhi could you post your findings.

Jazakallah
Yeah sorry for the delay. i will post saturday insha'allah. just got off frrom exams.

[Logic lover]

It is the belief of the Brelewis that Rasulullah, peace be upon him is made of Allah's noor in the literal sense.

They use the fabricated hadith (already posted) to prove the validity of their belief.

It is considered that the Brelewis belief is out of love for Rasulullah, peace be upon him as the Christians claim to love Isa, peace be upon him, though we have been warned about such extremism. Our love must not stretch the boundary of what is allowed and prohibited.

However, the point I am making in this post is this:

The very hadith they use to prove the literal make up of Rasulullah, peace be upon him (that is from Allah's noor) is actually the one which could be used to demolish their idiotic principle. If one is to use the hadith to prove the unique attribute of Muhammad, peace be upon him - then the hadith proves totally opposite. Because, the hadith tells us that everything else is made of the noor, which is originally from Allah's noor. So, on that basis all the creation is made of the noor of Allah, not just Muhammad, peace be upon him. This kind of belief is similar to Wahadatul Wajud, the Creator and the creation is one.

Where is your logic o Brelewi idiots?

I seek refuge in Allah from such evil beliefs.

[Abu Maryam PK]

However, the point I am making in this post is this:

The very hadith they use to prove the literal make up of Rasulullah, peace be upon him (that is from Allah's noor) is actually the one which could be used to demolish their idiotic principle. If one is to use the hadith to prove the unique attribute of Muhammad, peace be upon him - then the hadith proves totally opposite. Because, the hadith tells us that everything else is made of the noor, which is originally from Allah's noor. So, on that basis all the creation is made of the noor of Allah, not just Muhammad, peace be upon him. This kind of belief is similar to Wahadatul Wajud, the Creator and the creation is one.
That's smart.

[Abu Maryam PK]

I am sorry, i am extremely busy with a translation project for fathul baari at http://www.ahlalhdeeth.com/vbe/index.php
So its hard to keep the commitment of translating the article on takhrij of noori hadith. Some other time insha'allah. Anyway as i showed if the hadith had any basis there would have been no need to fabricate a brand new edition of musannaf abdirrazaq.

[joefso]

It is the belief of the Brelewis that Rasulullah, peace be upon him is made of Allah's noor in the literal sense.

They use the fabricated hadith (already posted) to prove the validity of their belief.

It is considered that the Brelewis belief is out of love for Rasulullah, peace be upon him as the Christians claim to love Isa, peace be upon him, though we have been warned about such extremism. Our love must not stretch the boundary of what is allowed and prohibited.

However, the point I am making in this post is this:

The very hadith they use to prove the literal make up of Rasulullah, peace be upon him (that is from Allah's noor) is actually the one which could be used to demolish their idiotic principle. If one is to use the hadith to prove the unique attribute of Muhammad, peace be upon him - then the hadith proves totally opposite. Because, the hadith tells us that everything else is made of the noor, which is originally from Allah's noor. So, on that basis all the creation is made of the noor of Allah, not just Muhammad, peace be upon him. This kind of belief is similar to Wahadatul Wajud, the Creator and the creation is one.

Where is your logic o Brelewi idiots?

I seek refuge in Allah from such evil beliefs.

lol, you use kalam often to defend islam?

[manZERO]

does the qur'an use the word NOOR for any other prophet?

[manZERO]

is there a verse in the qur'an that says muhammad (pbuh) appeared in the form of a man like gibreel's appearance to mary in the form of a man?

[manZERO]

in which situations has the qur'an used noor for?

[Adeel]

in which situations has the qur'an used noor for?

Allah referred Quran as "Noor" in His Book. How many of the Bareilvis hold Quran which is physically "Noor"?