Deobandi Tamperings

[Abu Maryam PK]

Bismillahirahmanirrahim
Please have a look at this "Imaam" from South Africa:
http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=5299
http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=11272
http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=11040
http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6967
http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=5784
http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=18381
Some of Desai's fatwa (this site was recently banned here), can also be accessed on Taqi Uthmani's site , al-balaagh.

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U had stated (q5244) that Ibn Abdul Wahhab didn’t start a new sect. How can he and his followers be regarded as Ahl Sunnah after everything above, and when many scholars have said they are Ahl Bida?

<small>However, Imam Ibn Abidin (d.1252AH) says in his book, Hashiya radd al-muhtar ‘ala al-Durr al-mukhtar sharh Tanwir al-absar, that the Wahhabis were considered as Khwarij. This is because they rebelled against the Caliph and started killing Sunnis, just because they thought that by practising tawassul, the people were actually worshipping the Prophet (aleyhi salam). Even today, their now dead propagandists were spreading Wahhabism, such as Albani and Uthaymin. They regard the Asharis as the same as the Jahmiyya. They say that Allahu Ta’ala is sitting “in person” on the throne (Muslim’s Belief, by Uthaymin), even though Ibn Jawzi (d.597AH) rejected such statements as “sitting on the throne in person” as heresy in his book, Daf‘ shubah al-tashbih bi akaff al-tanzih. Uthaymin also states in his book that Allah has 2 eyes! Also is it not true that Ibn Hajar Haytami (d.974AH) stated in his Fatawa al-hadithiyya that the Sunnis are the Ashari/Maturidis, whereas the Wahhabis condemn Ashari/Maturidi beliefs because we do not ascribe direction to Allah. What about the Ahadith of the dissension from the Najd by a group of muslims who shave their heads (Khwarij never did this, Wahhabis were the first to practise this) and regard other muslims as mushrikeen.
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</small><b><big>Real meaning of Allah is everywhere? What is the meaning of “Arsh” of Allah s.w.t.? Is the throne of Allah is on water? Are the angels carrying the throne of Allah s.w.t.? </big></b>

How do all these fit in? Pls. also provide the related Ahadith. Please also explain in detail the correctness or not of the Sufi belief that Allah s.w.t. is everywhere.


Saadu-deen Taftazani has explained the aspect of 'Where is Allah' in the following words, 'And he is not at any place'. (Sharh Aqaaid) Imaam Maalik was asked about the Aayat in Surah Taaha, 'Allah is above His Ársh', he answered 'Being above (Istawaa) is known but the reality is unknown and - questioning that - is innovation.' Jaaluddin Suyyuti also
comments on the Aayat saying, 'Istawaa (being above) according to whatever is appropriate for Allah. (Jalaalayn vol. 2 p. 260).
However, the verse does not speak about the Zaat of Allah Taãla being on the Ársh but it is to indicate the establishment and control of the Kingdom of Allah by Himself.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
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From the above examples and Aayaats and a multitude of others, a person can clearly see the Omnipresence of Allah and that this whole system of the universe is being run by a superior being.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
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<small> </small>


<small> </small>
<b><big>please explain to me if Allah SWT has two eyes, two hands and face?
</big></b>Allah Ta’ala is beyond comprehension. We are too weak in understanding His attributes and Himself.

Although various verses of the noble Qur’aan indicate and make mention of ‘hands’, etc. attributed to Allah Ta’ala, this is in the complete knowledge of Him Alone. Therefore, we believe in Allah Ta’ala and all his qualities as he is.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
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The Imaam of the Ash'aris is Abul Hasan al-Ash'ari. The Imaam of the
Maturidis is Abu Mansoor Maatrudi. Both Imaams were from the Ahlus sunnah
Wal Jamaa` and Imaams in Aqeedah.

Imam Ghazzaaly, Imaam ibn Araby, ibn Taymiyah and ibn Qayyim (RA) were great
scholars. They had some independent views based on their vast knowledge and
research. It is normal for academics in any field to differ with one
another. That is based on their scholarly approach. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu
Alayhi Wasallam) said, 'The differences among my Ulama is Rahmat (mercy).' (Bilal says: There is no such hadith.)

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
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All the basic Aqaaid of Islam are mentioned in the Qur'aan itself, any need
for clarification being sufficed by the Ahaadith Mutaawaatir. Thus, leaving
no real need for admission of Khabar Ahad matters of Aqaaid.

This is aside from the fact that Khabar Ahad, containing elements of doubt,
cannot be used to define principles upon which the very fundamentals of
Imaan (belief) are based. Furthermore, Khabar Ahad, being open to difference
of opinion, if admitted into such matters could weaken the very foundations
of Aqaaid.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai
FATWA DEPT.
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Allah Ta’ala is pure and free from all similarities to human beings. By confining Allah to a specific place, like the Arsh, a form is automatically being attributed to Allah. Once a form/shape is attributed to Allah, a deficiency is being attributed to Allah Ta’ala. Since, time and place are both created things. Allah was how He was and still is the same. He is not affected by the passing of time. It is, therefore, improper to say Allah is on the Arsh. Similarly, it is improper to say Allah is everywhere. The best and safest option is the stance adopted by our Salaf (pious predecessors), i.e. to believe in Allah as He is without delving into the details on these issues. (Al-Iemaanu billaah)
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I have a problem deciding which masjid to go to in my local area. This is because we have a wahabi masjid and a brelvi masjid (myself am deobandii). The wahabi masjid has two imams one who doesn’t wear a hat and one of the imams is clean shaven. They also place the quran in a low shelf on their bookshelf. The brelvi masjid has a picture of rasullah’s roza in the direction of prayer and it feels like we are bowing in front of it when we read namaz. Which of the two masjids do you recommend if any?
If there is no other Musjid in the vicinity, try and determine the beliefs of the Imaam in the Barelwi Musjid. If his beliefs seem in order and outwardly he seems like a reliable person, you may continue following him. If you still feel uneasy, you may repeat your Salaat on your own. However, on no account should you abandon Salaat with Jamaat in the Musjid.

[waziri]

Asalamualaykum


Akhi Bilal can you explain something to me which Im still confused about and I think maybe you might have some ilm about it,please akhi dont let your affiliation to ahlu hadeth stop you from giving me a balanced answer.

I have read some of the answers to questions posted on ebrahim desai's webste and I agree that he does not seem to be reliable in matters of aqaid,now he is deobandi,
I asked a scholar who I would describe as being deobandi (even though he has never studed there but he is from that line of thought)about the understanding of the sifat of Allah and he told me that we have to believe in all of them as they have been mentioned in quran and hadeeth without taweel.

I further asked him about tafweed of the ma'na and he said "no we do not make tafweed of the ma'na" and he even added that "to do so would mean that they are meaningless".So in other words he affirmed the sifat and the meaning the same as the salafis do.

So my question is why do deobandis differ in aqida? doesnt this prove that not all deobandis have the same aqida or same understanding?and that we shouldnt generalise and make sweeping statements about hundereds of thousands of ulema when we use the term deobandi?

jazakAllah khair for your response


wasalam

[suhail]

Assalaam Alykum,

You cant paint all the deobandis with the same brush. There are two groups which are clear in the deobandis. One is hayati and one is mamati. They hold very different opinions on aqeedah but both are following hanafi fiqh. So you need to make a difference there.

Jazakallah Khair
Suhail

[waziri]

Assalaam Alykum,

You cant paint all the deobandis with the same brush. There are two groups which are clear in the deobandis. One is hayati and one is mamati. They hold very different opinions on aqeedah but both are following hanafi fiqh. So you need to make a difference there.

Jazakallah Khair
Suhail


JazakAllah khair akhi Suhail,

Yes I was aware of the hayati/mamati difference but I would like more info about the other differeces,I mean how one deobandi can make ta'weel and another one not?Aswell as this why would both of them call themselves maturidi ?Can they both be maturidi and have such different aqaid?

[suhail]

Assalaam Alykum,

I dont know if they are maturidis. There was one shaikh who belonged to deoband who criticized all the points in aqeedah which scholars like Ashraf Ali Thanvi and other propogated. So he was critical of the maturidi aqeedah. Really dont know the name of the scholar but he was from deoband for sure.

Suhail

[nobody]

tell us about the books of mamatis regarding sifati issues and their refutation of suofiyah so that one can confirm their aqaid. i ll get the books insha'Allah and scan the relevent parts.

a salafi qouted some passages from faidul bari of anwar shah kaashmiri rahimahu Allah according to which he confrimed that the salaf did tafweed of kaif only. i ll search them insha'Allah.

wassalam

[Abu Maryam PK]

Asalamualaykum


Akhi Bilal can you explain something to me which Im still confused about and I think maybe you might have some ilm about it,please akhi dont let your affiliation to ahlu hadeth stop you from giving me a balanced answer.
Wa'alaikumussalam warahmatullahi wabarakatuhu. I promise i would as balanced as possible.
I have read some of the answers to questions posted on ebrahim desai's webste and I agree that he does not seem to be reliable in matters of aqaid,now he is deobandi,
Jazakallahu khair. He is not only a deobandi but also a tablighi (not all deobandis are TJ's). He is also unreliable in matters of fiqh.
I asked a scholar who I would describe as being deobandi (even though he has never studed there but he is from that line of thought)about the understanding of the sifat of Allah and he told me that we have to believe in all of them as they have been mentioned in quran and hadeeth without taweel.

I further asked him about tafweed of the ma'na and he said "no we do not make tafweed of the ma'na" and he even added that "to do so would mean that they are meaningless".So in other words he affirmed the sifat and the meaning the same as the salafis do.

So my question is why do deobandis differ in aqida? doesnt this prove that not all deobandis have the same aqida or same understanding?and that we shouldnt generalise and make sweeping statements about hundereds of thousands of ulema when we use the term deobandi?
I mentioned somewhere else on this same forum that such people are extremely rare from Deoband and virtually non-existent in Hayatie deobandis. I also praised mamati deobandis for their struggle against barelvi aqaid (You can find the post in "Abu Hanifa-A tribute to a Salafi" thread in Islam General section). May I add that Mamati generally and tablighis in particular accomodate them and think they are closer to the truth than salafies, as can be seen from Ikhtilaaf e ummat by Ludhianvi. Having said that I also pointed their sufiistic mistakes and their extremism in making blind taqleed and ghulu in that.
The general rule is "Alhukmu alal akthar" (ruling is made based upon the majority). The Deobandi scholar you have mentioned has indeed done a fair job. May Allah reward him for that. No you cannot be a maturidi and a salafi at the same time. The rules that Muturidies use in establishing the Asmaa and sifaat are not the rules of Ahlus sunnah (see Almaturidiyyah by Sh Abdul rahmaan alkhumayyis and the book by the same name of Shamsuddin Afghani of Medina University). That is the problem.
You see when these deobandis go to britain or the ksa, they change their stance to appeal to the masses and gather funds. The important distinction is that you should ask him and show him Almahnad Alalmufannad (Aqaid Ulema Deoband). If he rejects that, he is OK, he is Sunni in Aqaid. Because it used to be printed on the back cover, "Any one not affirming these aqaid is not afilliated to Ahlus Sunnah wal jama'ah Deoband". And in this book they mention making ta'weel is one of their aqaid as well as being maturidies.
If he is rejecting these statements, he is not a deobandi anymore. Walhamdolillah.
I hpoe you have found the answer not to be biased.

[Abu Maryam PK]

tYPING ERROR:
May I add that hAYATIES generally and tablighis in particular accomodate them and think they are closer to the truth than salafies, as can be seen from Ikhtilaaf e ummat by Ludhianvi.

[Abu Maryam PK]

Assalaam Alykum,

You cant paint all the deobandis with the same brush. There are two groups which are clear in the deobandis. One is hayati and one is mamati. They hold very different opinions on aqeedah but both are following hanafi fiqh. So you need to make a difference there.

Jazakallah Khair
Suhail
tHE MAMATIES CONSTITITUE A VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF DEOBANDIES. I so far have met only one, and that too in this forum. They, to my knowledge have only one big mosque in karachi, near central jail (the red one on jamshed road.)
The general rule is that the Hukum is based on the majority and this does not mean every individual is declared a zindeeq. Look at the 'Asharies for example. We can say that the sect as a whole is a misguided one, but can you say that about each and every individual who were influenced by them? Some had more bid'ah than others. e.g. Ibn Hajr makes much less ta'weel than nawawi and both are almost contemporaries (Fathul baari was written after nawawi's sharah mulsim). Saying that the Asharis are a misguided sect does not mean each individual is painted with the same brush.
I will repeat myself below
The important distinction is that you should ask him and show him Almahnad Alalmufannad (Aqaid Ulema Deoband). If he rejects that, he is OK, he is Sunni in Aqaid. Because it used to be printed on the back cover, "Any one not affirming these aqaid is not afilliated to Ahlus Sunnah wal jama'ah Deoband". And in this book they mention making ta'weel is one of their aqaid as well as being maturidies.
If he is rejecting these statements, he is not a deobandi anymore. Walhamdolillah.

[Abu Maryam PK]

Assalaam Alykum,

You cant paint all the deobandis with the same brush.
Wa'alaikumussalam
Hmm....maybe Desai is taking that approach of not painting all Barelvis with the same brush, but he does paint all salafies with the same brush:
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I have a problem deciding which masjid to go to in my local area. This is because we have a wahabi masjid and a brelvi masjid (myself am deobandii). The wahabi masjid has two imams one who doesn’t wear a hat and one of the imams is clean shaven. They also place the quran in a low shelf on their bookshelf. The brelvi masjid has a picture of rasullah’s roza in the direction of prayer and it feels like we are bowing in front of it when we read namaz. Which of the two masjids do you recommend if any?
Answer:
If there is no other Musjid in the vicinity, try and determine the beliefs of the Imaam in the Barelwi Musjid. If his beliefs seem in order and outwardly he seems like a reliable person, you may continue following him. If you still feel uneasy, you may repeat your Salaat on your own. However, on no account should you abandon Salaat with Jamaat in the Musjid.
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Look, he never even recommended confirming the aqaid of salafies. That there was statue like picture infront of them is no big deal to him, being bare-headed is! As I said Hayatie Deobandies generally accomodate barelvis.They dont even call them Mushrik. They generally call the "Bid'aties".
Of course they call the wahabies, "Khawarij"

[Abu_Abdillah2000]

What is the difference between "hayati" deobandis and "mamati" deobandis? I am interested in knowing about this, as have never heard of these two groups before. Can someone briefly explain about them?

[Abu Maryam PK]

What is the difference between "hayati" deobandis and "mamati" deobandis? I am interested in knowing about this, as have never heard of these two groups before. Can someone briefly explain about them?
Mamati Deobandis are from the "Jamaat isha'at tahwheed wal sunnah". This is a sub-branch of Deobandies. They believe the Prophet sallallahoalaihiwasallam is dead and not alive in his grave like the majority of Deobandies. The majority of Deobandies, including Taqi Usmani group and Binori group is on the aqeedah of Hayat al nabi alihi salam, his being alive in his medina grave like his life in this world. These people are called "Hayati Deobandies". The "jamaat isha'at" are called the "Mamati Deobandies", also called Panjguries. They are generally concentrated in small parts of Panjab.
The Isha'ati group is much closer to the ahlul hadith in aqaid. The most famous deobandi manazir, Maulana Sadiq Kohati belonged to Mamati group. He recently became ahlul hadith after a munazara. He came to Ma'had alsalafi in Karachi (Sh Abdullah Naasir's madrassah) and told the students there "The Hayati Deobandies call us Neem-ahle hadees (semi-salafi) and we call the Hayaties Neem-barelvi (semi-barelvi)".
http://www.ahlulhadeeth.net/php/modu...th_Ki yu_Howa (http://www.ahlulhadeeth.net/php/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownloaddetails&lid=484&ttitle=Muhammad_Sadiq_Kohati_Mie_%28_AhlulHadeeth_ Kiyu_Howa))
Yunus Nomani and Amin Okarvi also had munazaras while both are deobandies. Both hayaties and deobandies dont consider each other true deobandies.

Having said that, the isha'aties still have tasawwuf and promote taqlid. Some of their munaazirs like Yunus Nomani now say that we onlyt do taqleed where there is no Quraan and Hadith (Masaail Ghair mansoos). But this of course is a lie.

All in all, Mamaties are very vibrant in attacking the barelvy aqaid and reject shirk (unlike their hayati counterparts, who generally accomodate them and dont even generally call them mushrik, but Bid'aties), but they still have some bid'aat which they need to get rid of, among them the ghuluu in taqlid of their Imaam, rahimahullah, and tasawwuf and bayt ("covenent of allegiance") in one of the 4 silsillahs of tasawwuf. Ahlul hadees scholars praise these efforts of theirs but warn against their bid'aat.

Naimwi, Amin Okarvi, Sarfaraz Safdar, Masood Azhar etc. are all Hayaties (beleiving that the Prophet salallahoalaihiwasallam is alive in his grave as in his life).
All known deobandies are are hayaties, as can be seen from Almuhannad alal mufannad (Aqaaid Ulema Deoband), which they all verify. I think it is the same book which states that the qabar shareef is better than the Arsh, because the sacred body touches the soil of the grave. Audhubillah.

[Abu Maryam PK]

Typo:
All known old deobandies are are hayaties

[Tauheed]

The important distinction is that you should ask him and show him Almahnad Alalmufannad (Aqaid Ulema Deoband). If he rejects that, he is OK, he is Sunni in Aqaid. Because it used to be printed on the back cover, "Any one not affirming these aqaid is not afilliated to Ahlus Sunnah wal jama'ah Deoband". And in this book they mention making ta'weel is one of their aqaid as well as being maturidies.
If he is rejecting these statements, he is not a deobandi anymore. Walhamdolillah.
I hpoe you have found the answer not to be biased.

Asalaam Alaikum,

I asked some questions in regards to Almahnad as I have not read it. The Sheikh rejected it. He does not se Ashraf Thanvi (rh) as sound in terms of belief.

I also I would like to make a correction about something I said earlier. Apparently there are some other Ulema of Ish'aat scattered about about in the UK. However I just know the one in London.

Also I would like to correct in regards to what you have said that they are a minority. In Paksitan they have quite a few Madrassa's including Gujaraat. Islamabaad, Panj peer and a few other places of whose names I am not familiar with, hence they don't come to mind. There are some in the Arab countries such as Dubai and I think in Saudi.

The attitude is that if something is against Qur'an and Sunnah then it does matter if your mother or father or the likes of Shah walli ullah who is more of an Deobandi than what has been mentioned earlier.

Now just some questions for you Akh.

Do you know of the following people?
Abdul Aziz Noorastani
Jameel urahman (rh)
Sami Ullah

Also have you read Ashifaah ul Aleel?

[Tauheed]

Mamati Deobandis are from the "Jamaat isha'at tahwheed wal sunnah". This is a sub-branch of Deobandies. They believe the Prophet sallallahoalaihiwasallam is dead and not alive in his grave like the majority of Deobandies. The majority of Deobandies, including Taqi Usmani group and Binori group is on the aqeedah of Hayat al nabi alihi salam, his being alive in his medina grave like his life in this world. These people are called "Hayati Deobandies". The "jamaat isha'at" are called the "Mamati Deobandies", also called Panjguries. They are generally concentrated in small parts of Panjab.
The Isha'ati group is much closer to the ahlul hadith in aqaid. The most famous deobandi manazir, Maulana Sadiq Kohati belonged to Mamati group. He recently became ahlul hadith after a munazara. He came to Ma'had alsalafi in Karachi (Sh Abdullah Naasir's madrassah) and told the students there "The Hayati Deobandies call us Neem-ahle hadees (semi-salafi) and we call the Hayaties Neem-barelvi (semi-barelvi)".
http://www.ahlulhadeeth.net/php/modu...th_Ki yu_Howa (http://www.ahlulhadeeth.net/php/modules.php?name=Downloads&d_op=viewdownloaddetails&lid=484&ttitle=Muhammad_Sadiq_Kohati_Mie_%28_AhlulHadeeth_ Kiyu_Howa))
Yunus Nomani and Amin Okarvi also had munazaras while both are deobandies. Both hayaties and deobandies dont consider each other true deobandies.

Having said that, the isha'aties still have tasawwuf and promote taqlid. Some of their munaazirs like Yunus Nomani now say that we onlyt do taqleed where there is no Quraan and Hadith (Masaail Ghair mansoos). But this of course is a lie.

All in all, Mamaties are very vibrant in attacking the barelvy aqaid and reject shirk (unlike their hayati counterparts, who generally accomodate them and dont even generally call them mushrik, but Bid'aties), but they still have some bid'aat which they need to get rid of, among them the ghuluu in taqlid of their Imaam, rahimahullah, and tasawwuf and bayt ("covenent of allegiance") in one of the 4 silsillahs of tasawwuf. Ahlul hadees scholars praise these efforts of theirs but warn against their bid'aat.

Naimwi, Amin Okarvi, Sarfaraz Safdar, Masood Azhar etc. are all Hayaties (beleiving that the Prophet salallahoalaihiwasallam is alive in his grave as in his life).
All known deobandies are are hayaties, as can be seen from Almuhannad alal mufannad (Aqaaid Ulema Deoband), which they all verify. I think it is the same book which states that the qabar shareef is better than the Arsh, because the sacred body touches the soil of the grave. Audhubillah.

Akh you should remove the Tasawaf aspect as I mentioned to earlier in the other thread as this slander. This Sadiq Kohati can't be that famous as Shiekh not heard of him (and he is an old timer), but he not denie the fact someone could have turned to Ahle Hadith from Ish'aat.

[Tauheed]

What is the difference between "hayati" deobandis and "mamati" deobandis? I am interested in knowing about this, as have never heard of these two groups before. Can someone briefly explain about them?

read the thread the brother mentioned, but see my posts for some corrections to be fair.

Asalaam alaikum

[waziri]

Asalamualaykum,

JazakAllah khair for your response akhi Bilalal.

I know that Shaykh Younus Nomani is here in the uk at the moment,he is suposed very good at debating so Im told.

Can you brothers tell me where abouts panch peer is?I remember last time I was in Pakistan my cousin was telling me he was going to take me there but we never got round to it,now Im not sure if he meant an actual place called panchpeer or somewhere the people were pachpeeri.

Also akhi Bilal Do you know of any ahlu hadeth masajid in Peshawar?

wasalam

[Abu Maryam PK]

Asalamualaykum,

JazakAllah khair for your response akhi Bilalal.

I know that Shaykh Younus Nomani is here in the uk at the moment,he is suposed very good at debating so Im told.
I think Sh Zubayr Ali Zai had debates with him.
Can you brothers tell me where abouts panch peer is?I remember last time I was in Pakistan my cousin was telling me he was going to take me there but we never got round to it,now Im not sure if he meant an actual place called panchpeer or somewhere the people were pachpeeri.
I think panjpeeri is another name for mamatis. No idea where the actual place is. Maybe in Punjab. Instead of going there i would recommend you seriously start learning arabic and study other sciences. You should try visiting Shyookh like Sh Abdullah Naasir Rahmaani(karachi) and Zubay Ali Zai (attock). Both are held in deep respect by scholars here.
Also akhi Bilal Do you know of any ahlu hadeth masajid in Peshawar?
I think there is "Medressah Atharia", the Madressah of Sh Shamsuddin Afghani rahimahullah. I have never been to peshawer myself. Sheikh Abdus Salaam Rustami and Sh Ameenullah Peshawari are important Ulema there. If you have the money (i am broke these days, as we are expecting a baby soon insha'allah), you can call one of Shaykh peshawari's students, Shaikh Abu Jaaber Abdullah Damanvi on +92-21-2853011 for their addresses. Also, you may call one of Shaykh Aluthaymeen's student's who is in Quetta these days, Sheikh Abu Turaab +92-3008381111 or his madressah Jamia Alsalayyiah Da'watul Huq at +92-81-2880281. I hope this helps.
Ibn Imam can help further

[Abu Maryam PK]

Akh you should remove the Tasawaf aspect as I mentioned to earlier in the other thread as this slander.
sorry, i just pasted the old thing. I will be careful in future insha'allah. Jazakallahu khair.
This Sadiq Kohati can't be that famous as Shiekh not heard of him (and he is an old timer), but he not denie the fact someone could have turned to Ahle Hadith from Ish'aat.
Deobandis used to call him their Sultaanul Manaazireen. Maybe because your shaikh is too much of an old timer or has not visited Pakistan in a long time, thats why he maynot have heard of him.

[Abu Maryam PK]

Asalaam Alaikum,

I asked some questions in regards to Almahnad as I have not read it. The Sheikh rejected it. He does not se Ashraf Thanvi (rh) as sound in terms of belief.
Can you read urdu? If so i think you can find almahnad with urdu translation of Sh Abdulshukoor Tirmizi (hayati Deobandi) on the web. I will try to find it for you insha'allah.
Also I would like to correct in regards to what you have said that they are a minority. In Paksitan they have quite a few Madrassa's including Gujaraat. Islamabaad, Panj peer and a few other places of whose names I am not familiar with, hence they don't come to mind.
As i said they are concentrated in parts of Punjab and generally Ahlul Hadith have cooperation with them because of their anti-barelvi efforts and rejection of shirk. So I have heard. In big cities like Karachi they are virtually non-existent.
There are some in the Arab countries such as Dubai and I think in Saudi.
There are here in saudi. All Medressahs are regularized by the government. May some one has set up a Quraan Memorization school, but that is diferent from a medressah.

The attitude is that if something is against Qur'an and Sunnah then it does matter if your mother or father or the likes of Shah walli ullah who is more of an Deobandi than what has been mentioned earlier.
I think you made a typo. Your sentence should have been "if something is against Qur'an and Sunnah then it does not matter if your mother or father or the likes of Shah are against it". Right?
Shah saahib rahimahullah lived many years before either barelvis or deobandis existed. He was more inclined to the teachings of Ahlul Hadith scholars, whom he probably first met in his pilgrimage of Hajj, which changed his thinking a lot.

Now just some questions for you Akh.

Do you know of the following people?
Abdul Aziz Noorastani
Jameel urahman (rh)
Sami Ullah
If I am not wrong atleast the first two are famous Ahlul Hadith scholars. Shaykh Jamilur Rahman was the head of Jaatud Da'wah ilal Quraan wal sunnah in Nooristan, Afghanistan, who set up the first Islmaic State in Kunnar etc., before the Russians left. It was recognized by Saudis. He was killed by an Ikhwani from egypt ithink. Shaykh Muqbil of Yemen has a book "Maqtal Shaikh Jamilur Rahman". Kunnar still remains the hotbead of Salafi Da'wah in Afghanistan. I am not sure which sami ullah you are talking about.
Also have you read Ashifaah ul Aleel?
There are more than one books by that name (It should be Shifaa ul Aleel (cure of the sick). When two things are related, in arabic the first word in the compound cannot take an "al". eg. Rasoolulllah, we cannot say ar-rasoolullah. It would change the meaning). Is it in urdu or arabic? I cant remember exactly but i remember one. Can you give more info?

[Abu Maryam PK]

Typo (i dont know when i will type properly):
There are not here in saudi. All Medressahs are regularized by the government. May some one has set up a Quraan Memorization school, but that is diferent from a medressah.

[juwairiyah]

Assalamo'alaykum Warahmatulah Wabarakatuh

please akhi dont let your affiliation to ahlu hadeth stop you from giving me a balanced answer.

This was quite hilarious

[Yasir]

There are not here in saudi. All Medressahs are regularized by the government. May some one has set up a Quraan Memorization school, but that is diferent from a medressah.

Have you seen this: http://www.alsawlatiyah.com/ ?

[Tauheed]

Can you read urdu? If so i think you can find almahnad with urdu translation of Sh Abdulshukoor Tirmizi (hayati Deobandi) on the web. I will try to find it for you insha'allah.

As i said they are concentrated in parts of Punjab and generally Ahlul Hadith have cooperation with them because of their anti-barelvi efforts and rejection of shirk. So I have heard. In big cities like Karachi they are virtually non-existent.

There are here in saudi. All Medressahs are regularized by the government. May some one has set up a Quraan Memorization school, but that is diferent from a medressah.

Yes I don't think there is any Madrassahs, but there is some individuals there I will find for sure Insha'allah.

I think you made a typo. Your sentence should have been "if something is against Qur'an and Sunnah then it does not matter if your mother or father or the likes of Shah are against it". Right? ?

Lol... sorry you are correct. A bit short for time as was looking after the kids at the same time.

Shah saahib rahimahullah lived many years before either barelvis or deobandis existed. He was more inclined to the teachings of Ahlul Hadith scholars, whom he probably first met in his pilgrimage of Hajj, which changed his thinking a lot.

If I am not wrong atleast the first two are famous Ahlul Hadith scholars. Shaykh Jamilur Rahman was the head of Jaatud Da'wah ilal Quraan wal sunnah in Nooristan, Afghanistan, who set up the first Islmaic State in Kunnar etc., before the Russians left. It was recognized by Saudis. He was killed by an Ikhwani from egypt ithink. Shaykh Muqbil of Yemen has a book "Maqtal Shaikh Jamilur Rahman". Kunnar still remains the hotbead of Salafi Da'wah in Afghanistan. I am not sure which sami ullah you are talking about.

There are more than one books by that name (It should be Shifaa ul Aleel (cure of the sick). When two things are related, in arabic the first word in the compound cannot take an "al". eg. Rasoolulllah, we cannot say ar-rasoolullah. It would change the meaning). Is it in urdu or arabic? I cant remember exactly but i remember one. Can you give more info?

Yes you are correct they are all famous Ahlul Hadith Scholars. They all studied in Panj peer with Jammah Ish'aat. Abdul Aziz for 18 years, Jameel Urahman for 10 years and Sami Ullah who is now I think head of Ahlul Hadith in Afghanistan for 8 years.

Got to go for Asalaam Alaikum

[Abu Maryam PK]

Yes you are correct they are all famous Ahlul Hadith Scholars. They all studied in Panj peer with Jammah Ish'aat. Abdul Aziz for 18 years, Jameel Urahman for 10 years and Sami Ullah who is now I think head of Ahlul Hadith in Afghanistan for 8 years.

Got to go for Asalaam Alaikum
Maybe this is news for you. Maulana Sanaullah Amritsari, the famous Alhul Hadith scholar who debated the Qadyanis, Christians many times and Mirza Qadyani died as a result of the Mubahillah he proposed with him (Mirza said : Yaa Allah hum mai say suchchay ko jhootay ki zindagi main zillat ki maut dai....Mirza died of Cholera in his toilet in Amritsari's life), also studied at Darul uloom deoband, India. Shaykh Mahmmodul Hasan deobandi was extremely angry with him and refused to give him a degree untill many years later he defeated the Qaadianis in the famous Manaazara.

[Abu Maryam PK]

Have you seen this: http://www.alsawlatiyah.com/ ?
The site says the Medressah was set up at the time of Ottomans. What relation does this madressah have with mamaties? Their founder migrated before deoband was founded. Anyway as I said all medressahs are regularized by govt., unlike pak sarzameen, where anyone can spread anything they like, with the exception of Qaadyanis.

[Tauheed]

Asalaam Alaikum,

Shah saahib rahimahullah lived many years before either barelvis or deobandis existed. He was more inclined to the teachings of Ahlul Hadith scholars, whom he probably first met in his pilgrimage of Hajj, which changed his thinking a lot.

The back drop is that at the time of the British you had the likes of Shah Ismail Shaheed Insha-Allah and Ahmed Brelavi (RH) (not Raza Khan Brelevi) who were amongst the Mujahideen who were fighting against the British and this continued after them as well. When we find that a lot of the Ulema were being killed at the hands of the British, a Madrassah was set up in Deoband where downstairs they were training Mujahideen and upstairs was the actual Madrassar.

This how the Deoband Madrssar came about. So in origin the ‘Deobandis’ are Hananfi who were struggling against the British Raaj.

Now since the term Deobandi and Isha’at is being used interchangeably I mentioned that he was more of a Deoabandi (Isha’ati) than Ashraf Thanvi (RH) as Shah Sahibs was sound in belief as opposed to the latter.

Also in relation to Sadiq Kohati. The Sheikh knows the Ameer of Kowhaat as has recently come back from Pakistan less than a year ago and this Ameer has been in charge for quite some time of Kowhaat. Maybe he was a student of the ameer Allahu alim.

Jazak-Allah Khair for pointing out the grammatical error. My Arabic is very poor hence I would appreciate if you could translate the information you posted about Shah Sahib and the issue of Sifaat.

Another thing Sheikh, could discuss the Sanad about the Hadith about ‘Ikhtilaaf in my ummah’ and what the different Muhadith had to say about it. Were there any muhadith that saw it as authentic? There is another Hadith that mentions that Ikhtilaaf amongst my Sahabah is a mercy what is the authentication of that.

Shukran

[nobody]

tauheed ask the shaikh about the arwahe thalatha ( the 3 souls). founders of deoband. also about mahmudul hasan deobandi.

and yes their efforts to fight and oppose the british raj is undeniable. many of their 'ulema like mahmudul hasan were sent to malta a tropical island that was used used as prison.

[Tauheed]

Typo (i dont know when i will type properly):
There are not here in saudi. All Medressahs are regularized by the government. May some one has set up a Quraan Memorization school, but that is diferent from a medressah.

Asalaam alaikum,

There are some of scholars Isha'aat in Saudi. In Riyad there two regular Circle that take place.

[Um Abdullah M.]

I don't believe the issue of them doing taqlid in fiqh is a big deal, if their aqeedah is correct, or very very close to it.
aqeedah is most important thing, especially in these times, when so many deviant groups are out there, with so many deviant beliefs.

we shouldn't be worrying very much about fiqh in times like these when so many corrupt beliefs are spread amongest Muslims.

[junaid123]

The majority of Deobandies, including Taqi Usmani group and Binori group is on the aqeedah of Hayat al nabi alihi salam, his being alive in his medina grave like his life in this world.
I think it is the same book which states that the qabar shareef is better than the Arsh, because the sacred body touches the soil of the grave. Audhubillah.


It is the belief of the Ahlus sunnah Wal Jamaa that Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) passed away. Allah Ta’ala states, ‘You Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) will die and they will die.’ (Surah 39 Aayat29)

Ambiyaa and other chosen servants of Allah are alive in their graves. However, this life is life of the Barzakh and not of this world. The level of life in the Barzakh differs with each individual, however, the level of life in the prophets (alayhis salaam) is more than that in others.’ (Imdaadul Ahkaam vol.1 pg.342)

Does the red marked sentence match?

I dont like when people use to copy and paste to spread such rumors in internet.

Anas ibn Maaliki (Radhiallaahu Anhu) narrates that Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) said, ‘The Anbiyaa (Alayhis salaam) are living in their graves, they perform Salaat.’ (Majmauz-zawaaid vol.8 pg.211)

The lives of the Anbiyaa (Alayhis salaam) are also proven through the Ahaadith of Mi’raaj narrated by Bukhari and Muslim where it is mentioned that Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) led the Anbiyaa (Alayhis salaam) is Salaat and also his meeting them in Jannah.

ibn Mas’ood (Radhiallaahu Anhu) narrates that Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) said, ‘Verily, Allah has angels travelling through the earth, they bring to me the salaams of my Ummah.’ (Targheeb wat Tarheeb vol.2 pg.498)

Nabi (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) said, ‘Whoever recites Salawaat upon me (in my presence, I hear it and whoever sends Salawaat to me and he is not by me, his Salawaat is brought to me.’ (Nasaaie)

[suhail]

Brother Junaid that still doesnt prove that the life of Anbiya is same as this world. There are various hadeeth that proves that when a soul dies it goes in the life of barzakh. You have to bring a hadeeth which proves that the life of anbiya in the grave is same as this world.

[Abd al-Haqq Marshall]

Brother Junaid that still doesnt prove that the life of Anbiya is same as this world. There are various hadeeth that proves that when a soul dies it goes in the life of barzakh. You have to bring a hadeeth which proves that the life of anbiya in the grave is same as this world.

But how can you call the Prophet (salallahu alayhi wa sallam) "dead"? The Qur'an Sharif tells us not to call the shuhadah "dead" and the Prophet's present state is certainly higher than theirs. No one with any sense can deny that the Prophet died, just as we must acknowledge that the shuhada died, but is it really proper to go around saying "the Prophet is dead"? There is a saheeh hadith that says "the Prophets are alive in their graves and pray."

[Abuz Zubair]

But how can you call the Prophet (salallahu alayhi wa sallam) "dead"? The Qur'an Sharif tells us not to call the shuhadah "dead" and the Prophet's present state is certainly higher than theirs.

Easy! We have explicit text saying: 'YOU WILL DIE', in comparison to only a Qiyas of another text about the martyrs that they are alive.

So if you have an explicit text opposing qiyas, which takes precedence?

But in reality, there is no contradiction. The Prophet and all the martyrs DO die, especially the Prophets as Allah explicitly states it himself; but they are alive with Allah, in Barzakh...

[Abd al-Haqq Marshall]

Easy! We have explicit text saying: 'YOU WILL DIE', in comparison to only a Qiyas of another text about the martyrs that they are alive.

So if you have an explicit text opposing qiyas, which takes precedence?

But in reality, there is no contradiction. The Prophet and all the martyrs DO die, especially the Prophets as Allah explicitly states it himself; but they are alive with Allah, in Barzakh...

If you will recall, I said before that:

No one with any sense can deny that the Prophet died, just as we must acknowledge that the shuhada died...

And I did bring up an explicit text: "the Prophets are alive in their graves and pray". Classed as saheeh by al-Albani (rahimahullah).

[Abuz Zubair]

Yes, I was just responding to your question: how can we say they are dead?

My point is: If Allah himself can say that, why can't we?

[junaid123]

Brother Junaid that still doesnt prove that the life of Anbiya is same as this world. There are various hadeeth that proves that when a soul dies it goes in the life of barzakh. You have to bring a hadeeth which proves that the life of anbiya in the grave is same as this world.


Who want to prove that the life of anbiyas are same as this world?

i am not saying that and its also not the believe of ahle sunnah waal jamah.

i quote that the life of barjakh and this life are not same.

[Skillganon]

Yes, I was just responding to your question: how can we say they are dead?

My point is: If Allah himself can say that, why can't we?

Salam

I think their contention is when Allah(swt) says: "And say not of those who are slain in the way of Allah: "They are dead." Nay, they are living, though ye perceive (it) not." (2:154}

They usually use this to support their argument of going to the grave and asking the dead.

They use this to say they are alive like you and me.

Which I find it absurd since Allah(swt) already mentioned that they where slayed..and I am sure that everyone seen them being buried.

[suhail]

Yeah brother and thats what i said. Allah said that the prophet (SAW) will die too as it is expilcit in the Quran. And he is alive with Allah in barzakh like the shuahda.

[junaid123]

yes brother. I wrote my first massage because brother abu maryam spread a lie against the aqidah of grand mufti of pakistan taqi usmani that he believed prophate mohammad(sw) is alive in his grave as in madina.

But its not true.they believe that prophets are alive but not same as in this world.

[justabro]

Assalamo'alaykum Warahmatulah Wabarakatuh

This was quite hilarious

Why, are ALL Ahl-e-Hadis ppl unbiased and objective? All ppl are prone to let their animosities get the better of them.

It has been my experience that in Pakistan, you do not have the freedom to disagree with the mainstream view of Ahl-e-Hadis without getting looks of shock accompanied by the remark, "You mean... like a hanafi?!?!"

Personally, I like Ahl-e-Hadis people. I have more in common with them than any of the other groups in Indo-Pak, but one of the trends I have noticed is that those who are opposed to madhhabs are quick to identify their own personal ijtihads as "the Sunnah". Therefore, the one who disagrees with them is against "the Sunnah" and to be refuted. I myself started studying Fiqh from the books of Imam Shawkani and San'ani, rahimahumallah. I eventually left it because I felt that Hanbali Fiqh works were simply superior. What's more, Imam Shawkani and Imam San'ani are 95% muqallid in the issues of authenticating or weakening hadiths. Most discussions in Subul al-Salam related to the takhrij or authenticity of hadiths are taken verbatim from ibn Hajar.

[justabro]

Maybe this is news for you. Maulana Sanaullah Amritsari, the famous Alhul Hadith scholar who debated the Qadyanis, Christians many times and Mirza Qadyani died as a result of the Mubahillah he proposed with him (Mirza said : Yaa Allah hum mai say suchchay ko jhootay ki zindagi main zillat ki maut dai....Mirza died of Cholera in his toilet in Amritsari's life), also studied at Darul uloom deoband, India. Shaykh Mahmmodul Hasan deobandi was extremely angry with him and refused to give him a degree untill many years later he defeated the Qaadianis in the famous Manaazara.

Btw, recently an autobiographical Q/A session of Sh. Abd al-Ghaffar Hasan was published on the internet by his grandson. In it, he mentioned about Sh. Sana'ullah Amritsari that although he was "Salafi in Fiqh" (his words, not mine), he was "Mu'tazili in Tafsir." This really threw me off. Do you know what he was talking about?

[justabro]

Btw, I know of a Deobandi brother who graduated from the Deobandi Alim program. He is Hanafi in Fiqh but Salafi in Aqidah.

He rejects ta'wil and tafwid and affirms the Sifat. This is what he learned from his particular teachers who were also Hanafi.

[junaid123]

I think it is the same book which states that the qabar shareef is better than the Arsh, because the sacred body touches the soil of the grave. Audhubillah.

actuelly akhi this whole issue is neither a pillar of faith nor is it an essential for the tenants of belief.

lets not fall into something we have no clue or idea of, and be more careful of what is important to make us better Muslims

According to the consensus (ijma’) of all the scholars, the piece of land on which rests the blessed body of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace) is more virtuous than anything and everything which includes the Ka’ba and the throne (arsh) of Allah Most High.

The great Hadith scholar and Hanafi jurist (faqih), Mulla Ali al-Qari (Allah have mercy on him) states in his al-Maslak al-Mutaqassit fi al-Mansak al-Mutawassit, a commentary on Imam al-Sindhi’s Lubab al-Manasic (aka: Manasic Mulla Ali al-Qari):

“All the scholars agree on the fact that the most virtuous of cities are the cities of Makkah al-Mukarramah and Madina al-Munawwarah, Allah increase them in honour and respect. Then the scholars differed as to which one of the two is more virtuous…Some stated that Makkah is more virtuous than Madinah and this is the opinion of the three Imams (m: Abu Hanifa, Shafi’i and Malik), and has also been narrated from some Companions (Allah be pleased with them). Others stated that Madinah is more virtuous than Makkah and this is the opinion of some Maliki scholars and those who followed them from the Shafi’i school. It was said that this was also narrated from some of the Companions (Allah be pleased with them). It is possible that this was during the lifetime of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) or it was for those who migrated to Madinah from Makkah (muhajirun). Another (third) opinion states that they are both equal but this opinion is unknown, unrelated and incomprehensible. It seems that those who held this view saw the contradiction between the actions of the Ulama and the contradiction in the proofs, thus opted to remain silent (m: and not hold one more virtuous over the other).

However, the above difference of opinion is with regards to other than the blessed grave of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) and the Ka’ba, for Ka’ba is more virtuous than Madinah with the exception of the Prophet’s (Allah bless him & give him peace) grave according to all the scholars. Similarly, the blessed grave of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) is more virtuous than Masjid al-Haram without any difference of opinion among the scholars. So much so that the majority of the scholars (jumhur) have stated that, the piece of land on which rests the blessed body of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) is the most virtuous of lands on the face of this earth by the consensus (ijma’) of all the scholars…even more virtuous than Ka’ba…and the throne (arsh), as some of them have explicitly mentioned.

Thus, Qadhi Iyadh and others (Allah have mercy on them all) have related the consensus of the Ummah on the fact that the land on which lies the blessed Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) is more virtuous than even Ka’ba, and that the difference of opinion among the scholars is besides the grave.” (Manasic Mulla Ali al-Qari, p. 531-532)

Qadhi Iyadh al-Maliki (Allah have mercy on him) states:

“There is no difference of opinion (la khilaf) in that the grave of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) is the most virtuous land on earth.” (al-Shifa’ bi ta’rif huquq al-Mustafa, p. 595)

The great Hanafi jurist (faqih), Imam al-Haskafi (Allah have mercy on him) states:

“And Makkah is more virtuous than Madinah according to the preferred opinion with the exception of the land on which rests the blessed body of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace), for that is virtuous unrestrictedly (mutlaqan), even more than Ka’ba, Arsh and the Kursi.”

Allama Ibn Abidin (Allah have mercy on him) also agrees with the above statement of Imam al-Haskafi in his super-commentary (hashiya), thus relates from the Manasic of Mulla Ali al-Qari, which has been mentioned earlier.

Therefore, there is complete consensus of the Ulama on the fact that the area of the land on which rests the body of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) i.e. his grace is more blessed and more virtuous than everything which includes the Ka’ba and the throne of Allah Almighty.

This is in accordance with the belief of the Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama’ah that only Allah Almighty Himself has a greater rank than the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace). The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) is the best and most beloved of all creation, thus even the land where his body rests was given this status that it became the most virtuous of lands.

Some people may think how can the grave of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) be more virtuous than even the throne (arsh) of Allah Most High? The answer to this is that Allah Most High is not sitting (in every sense of the word) on his throne. He is pure from time and space, thus the Aqidah of the Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama’ah is that Allah Almighty is not restricted to any time or space, though His knowledge encompasses everything. The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) is resting in his blessed grave, although his soul may travel to other places.

And Allah knows best.

[suhail]

Yeah brother maryam as salafi has a habit of exaggerating on the behalfs of deobandis.

[Abuz Zubair]

Thus, Qadhi Iyadh and others (Allah have mercy on them all) have related the consensus of the Ummah on the fact that the land on which lies the blessed Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) is more virtuous than even Ka’ba, and that the difference of opinion among the scholars is besides the grave.” (Manasic Mulla Ali al-Qari, p. 531-532)

Qadhi Iyadh al-Maliki (Allah have mercy on him) states:

“There is no difference of opinion (la khilaf) in that the grave of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) is the most virtuous land on earth.” (al-Shifa’ bi ta’rif huquq al-Mustafa, p. 595)

How strange! We cannot find a single text from the book and the Sunnah supporting this, or even a single statement from the three blessed generations. All of a sudden, by Qadhi Iyadh's time there happens to be an Ijma out of the blue!

[junaid123]

yes akhi you are right.
to get information about that we have to bring late qaadi iyaad from his grave or ask those scholars who has a little bit knowledge about it.

[Abuz Zubair]

Imam Ahmad for one believed that the Throne is the best of all things:

وكان يقول في معنى الاستواء هو العلو والارتفاع ولم يزل الله تعالى عاليا رفيعا قبل أن يخلق عرشه فهو فوق كل شيء والعالي على كل شيء وإنما خص الله العرش لمعنى فيه مخالف لسائر الأشياء والعرش أفضل الأشياء وأرفعها فامتدح الله نفسه بأنه على العرش استوى أي عليه علا

Dhayl Tabaqat

to get information about that we have to bring late qaadi iyaad from his grave or ask those scholars who has a little bit knowledge about it.

In that case, you cannot prove to us that there is ijma'. Ijma' is not declared by anyone coming along and claiming it... It has to be proven. So prove it, plz.

[junaid123]

sure akhi.
where is written that its ijma and prove i have to ask schoalrs who are aware about it and tell it.

[Yasir]

Interestingly, the very same Mufti Muhammad from whom you’ve copied that fatwa says:The belief (Aqidah) of the mainstream Ahl al-Sunnah wa al-Jama’ah is that our beloved Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) and all the other Prophets are alive in their graves.

This life is physical and worldly (dunyawiyyah), and not just a spiritual one with the sole (barzakhiyyah), as the latter is common for all the people. They are usually involved in performing Salat and worshiping Allah (out of their own choice and not binding on them), and we can normally not see or feel them. When asked that if such a belief is held why do they continue to allow the Anbiyaa ‘alaihimus-salaam to remain buried underground, whilst they are alive? (Would they permit any other person to remain underground if they were to know they are alive in a worldly sense?) he said:Scholars such as Imam Suyuti and others are of the opinion that the life of the Prophets is both dunyawiyyah and barzakhiyyah. As for the specifics of this life, only Allah knows its details. As such, we should leave it to that. We do not know the exact details of this life, and whether this means they remain alive buried underground.

Some scholars have further stated that their life is even more powerful than the worldly life of living human beings. Again, what is meant by this is only known by Allah.It seems strange that he goes into the kayfiyyah, establishes a dunyawi life for the Prophet sallAllahu ‘alaihi wa sallam and then instruct tafweedh?

[junaid123]

Interestingly, the very same Mufti Muhammad from whom you’ve copied that fatwa says:When asked that if such a belief is held why do they continue to allow the Anbiyaa ‘alaihimus-salaam to remain buried underground, whilst they are alive? (Would they permit any other person to remain underground if they were to know they are alive in a worldly sense?) ?

Akhi dont you find your sentence was a little bit ironic!

he said:It seems strange that he goes into the kayfiyyah, establishes a dunyawi life for the Prophet sallAllahu ‘alaihi wa sallam and then instruct tafweedh?

Akhi if you are a expert of aqidah and have doubts about it then why dont you ask him personally?

personally i am really afraid to have doubts about any scholars or criticize any scholar.If i have question then i will ask him before talking in back side.

[Abu Maryam PK]

Bismillah
yes brother. I wrote my first massage because brother abu maryam spread a lie against the aqidah of grand mufti of pakistan taqi usmani that he believed prophate mohammad(sw) is alive in his grave as in madina.
brother, neither is sh taqi the mufti azam of pak nor anybody appointed him as such. if being a justice of shariat apellate bench whch is under the supreme court mean being the grand mufti, allow yourself to answer the following:
1) mufti usmani is no longer part of the bench of judges of shriat apellate bench, hence he should now be called former or ex or deposed grand mufti. correct?
2)He was replaced by a barelvi 'scholar'. So no you should bestow the same honour on a clear polytheist.
3) mufti usmani's verdicts were over-ruled by the supreme court, so justice iftikhar chowdhry, who does not have a beard and specilizes in a secular constitution should be the 'real' or de-facto grand mufti.
4) since mr (then general) musharraf over-ruled verdicts of the grand mfti iftikhar chowdhry, he should be the 'real' grandest cheif supreme mufti.
5) the vast majority of pak is not deobandi {hayatie}, so his verdicts do not recieve 1 and a half hoots from the majority of the people of pakistan.

The fact remains that these are self-appointed grand muftis, who are not recognised as such except their heretic clout {hayatie deobandies}. These are used inhererrently as a sort of intellectual bullying 'hey we got the grand mufti..nya nya nya nya'

But its not true.they believe that prophets are alive but not same as in this world.
read al-mahannad [i hear it has recenly been published with mufti taqi usmani's foreword]. tell me what does it say? and ludhyianvi's ikhtilaaf e umat in the sub-section 'barelvi-deobandi ikhtilaaf'? Al-muhannad is the handbook of deobandi hayaie aqaid. if anyone differs from it, he is no longer deobandie by the concensus of hayatie scholars. So if anyone rejects that book, i donot call him a deobandi. he is out of the loop.
Yeah brother maryam as salafi has a habit of exaggerating on the behalfs of deobandis.
brother i will post the munazarah i did with that madina uni grad deobandi at send-space in 2-3 weeks and u can see 4 ur self, these two facers.

[Abuz Zubair]

1) mufti usmani is no longer part of the bench of judges of shriat apellate bench, hence he should now be called former or ex or deposed grand mufti. correct?
2)He was replaced by a barelvi 'scholar'. So no you should bestow the same honour on a clear polytheist.
3) mufti usmani's verdicts were over-ruled by the supreme court, so justice iftikhar chowdhry, who does not have a beard and specilizes in a secular constitution should be the 'real' or de-facto grand mufti.
4) since mr (then general) musharraf over-ruled verdicts of the grand mfti iftikhar chowdhry, he should be the 'real' grandest cheif supreme mufti.

lol... this was funny!

[Abu Maryam PK]

Bismillah
anything to make you smile, big chief.

[abu_ibrahim]

grandest chief supreme mufti lol.

[Abd al-Haqq Marshall]

I think I like these Ishaati fellows. Alot more than the Ahle Hadis, in fact.

[Yasir]

Akhi dont you find your sentence was a little bit ironic! Do you mean my quoting him? If so, I don’t have a problem with you quoting him, the difference was that I’ve clearly attributed it to him.Akhi if you are a expert of aqidah and have doubts about it then why dont you ask him personally?

personally i am really afraid to have doubts about any scholars or criticize any scholar.If i have question then i will ask him before talking in back side.JazakAllahu khairan for your advice. Though I’m certainly not an expert on ‘aqidah, I have spoken to him personally several times in the past and do know him reasonably well. I posted the answer that I received in order to highlight the apparent discrepancies, which are evident quite logically and don’t require a detailed study on ‘aqidah.

[Abu Maryam PK]

Bismillah
Assalamoalaikum
I think I like these Isha'ati fellows. Alot more than the Ahle Hadis, in fact.
No problemo! But please tell us on what basis? Have u read from scholars of both Ahle Hadith and jamaat isha'at or heard them or interacted with them, given the fact that u r not from the subcontinent and do not know the problems that isha'atis have. To be fair we should not love/hate for someone be the criterion for passing jusdgement over them. Also could you mind contempating the fact that the most famous munaazir of isha'atiis, sh saadiq kohati became ahle hadith. I am not condemning the isha'atiis outright, but since i donot know much about them, as sadly they r too few to start with and the only one i met is here on iA, who is a loveable brother. But that is not enough to pass judgement over them as a group.

[nobody]

brother, neither is sh taqi the mufti azam of pak nor anybody appointed him as such.

his father was called mufti 'azam pakistan. he is called shaikhul islam. smile. how izzat.

[nobody]

actuelly akhi this whole issue is neither a pillar of faith nor is it an essential for the tenants of belief.

lets not fall into something we have no clue or idea of, and be more careful of what is important to make us better Muslims.

see page#155 of this pdf link. it is published as a zameemah with al muhannad. http://www.tauheed-sunnat.com/a/download-file-754.html

i have attached the image of the relevant part. interestingly this was certified as the aqeeda of ahl sunnah by his father mufti muhammad shafee' the grand mufti. along with many of the renowned deo scholars of the last century.

[junaid123]

see page#155 of this pdf link. it is published as a zameemah with al muhannad. http://www.tauheed-sunnat.com/a/download-file-754.html

i have attached the image of the relevant part. interestingly this was certified as the aqeeda of ahl sunnah by his father mufti muhammad shafee' the grand mufti. along with many of the renowned deo scholars of the last century.

upss sorry akhi i am not a pakistani , so also not able to read urdu.

[junaid123]

Bismillah

1) mufti usmani is no longer part of the bench of judges of shriat apellate bench, hence he should now be called former or ex or deposed grand mufti. correct?
since mr (then general) musharraf over-ruled verdicts of the grand mfti iftikhar chowdhry, he should be the 'real' grandest cheif supreme mufti.


May allah forgive me.

It shows how a person can be ignorant because of his a few knowledge.How could you compair mufti usmani with iftikhar chowdhry? ittaqillah ya akhi.
Be fair with your every word which you write, because allah is aware about this.and verily we have to give answer about all this things.


3) mufti usmani's verdicts were over-ruled by the supreme court, so justice iftikhar chowdhry, who does not have a beard and specilizes in a secular constitution should be the 'real' or de-facto grand mufti.


AKhi read the biography of mufti usmani and iftikhar they decide your self who can be real or de-facto grand mufti.


read al-mahannad [i hear it has recenly been published with mufti taqi usmani's foreword]. tell me what does it say? and ludhyianvi's ikhtilaaf e umat in the sub-section 'barelvi-deobandi ikhtilaaf'? Al-muhannad is the handbook of deobandi hayaie aqaid. if anyone differs from it, he is no longer deobandie by the concensus of hayatie scholars. So if anyone rejects that book, i donot call him a deobandi. he is out of the loop..

To quote somethings against deobandis , berlawis always like to quote from those books which is written by some so called salafi´s .And this technik is also used by so called"salafi´s" now a days? i didn´t know it.

A few sentences from this poor weak muslim to some brothers.
I love the word salaf.Because of the charecter, and the manner of salafs islam was spread in whole world.i love how all the sheikhs working upon the the hadiths to searching sahih and fabricated hadiths.But also try to respect a muslim.Dont make fun about him if you have more knowledge then him.If your intention is to teach or correct him then do it with hikmah.Because allah taala send mousa(as) to phiraown and told him not to be rush against phiraown.
And verily muslims are not worse then phiraon.
If they behaviours of salafs(sahaba,taabiyen) were same as now a days some so called "salafi´"s have, islam wouldn´t spread in whole world.
And i would also reject to accept islam as some so called salafi´s shows now a days(because of just knowing which hadiths is sahih and which is weak!)

[Abu Maryam PK]

bismillah
assalamoalaikum
Originally Posted by Abu Maryam al Salafi http://forums.islamicawakening.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?p=63333#post63333)
read al-mahannad [i hear it has recenly been published with mufti taqi usmani's foreword]. tell me what does it say? and ludhyianvi's ikhtilaaf e umat in the sub-section 'barelvi-deobandi ikhtilaaf'? Al-muhannad is the handbook of deobandi hayaie aqaid.
To quote somethings against deobandis , berlawis always like to quote from those books which is written by some so called salafi´s .And this technik is also used by so called"salafi´s" now a days?
And i would also reject to accept islam as some so called salafi´s shows now a days(because of just knowing which hadiths is sahih and which is weak!)
akhil karem al-habeeb
Al-Muhannad was written by sh khalil saharanpuri rahimahullah, the teacher of sh kandhalvi the founder of Tabligghi Jamaat. It is a book of aqidah which is aaccepted as the official doctrine of hayatie deobandies. Both scholars were deobandies before the hayati-mamati fissure appeared.

Ikhtilaaf e ummat was written by sh yusuf ludhianvi rahimahulla, the principal at jami'a binoria, the leading hayatie deobandi college.

I have knowledge of what i am talking about. BTW i used to be deobandi myself, a hayatie to be precise, and used to be active in tablighi jamaat too, so i know them inside out.

[Student_of_Knowledge]

SalamO-Laikum,

Just serched on goggle and Mufti Nawlur-Rahman clearly says that prophet is alive in the sense of Barzakh and I believe that he is a Deobandi.

http://www.shariahboard.org/viewfatwa.aspx?Question_ID=880

Searched on google again & found that this is a difference of opinion & from what I can read in Urdu Ibn-Taymiyyah (RA), Imam Shawkani (RA), Shaykh Muhammad Ibn Abdul-Wahab (RA) are not only of the all of the same opinion (i.e. life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) but also believe that the dead can hear the living? Quotes & references given in the article below

http://www.geocities.com/badr_313/hayat-nabi.htm

The article clearly quotes Ahle-Hadeeth Ulama of the past & present of the same opinion.

[nobody]

see page#155 of this pdf link. it is published as a zameemah with al muhannad. http://www.tauheed-sunnat.com/a/download-file-754.html

i have attached the image of the relevant part. interestingly this was certified as the aqeeda of ahl sunnah by his father mufti muhammad shafee' the grand mufti. along with many of the renowned deo scholars of the last century.upss sorry akhi i am not a pakistani , so also not able to read urdu.

it says under the heading of aqeedah#3:

the piece of earth touching the body of the prophet saw is more vituous than ka'ba and arsh.

mufti muhammad shafee' insisted that this zameemah should be named as the aqeedah of ahl sunnah and not the aqeeda of deobandis only. point is khabre wahid cannot prove aqeedah but the aqwal of few 'ulema can according to deos.

[junaid123]

"To quote somethings against deobandis , berlawis always like to quote from those books which is written by some so called salafi´s .And this technik is also used by so called"salafi´s" now a days? i didn´t know it."

This quote is written mistakenly.But not able to edit :-/

[Abd al-Haqq Marshall]

I just think that if we go around saying: "the Prophet is dead", we make people think we hold the belief of Ibn Furak.

[Abu Maryam PK]

Bismillah
assalamoalaikum
bro Tauheedullah, i am confounded. How come?

[suhail]

What about Abu Bakr(RA) brother Tawheedullah.? Was he wrong when said to the sahaba that Prophet (SAW) is dead. I mean Allah says in Quran to Prophet(SAW) that you will die so why cant we say that. We all acknowledge that Prophet(SAW) is alive in the sense of barzakh.

JK
Suhail

[Abu_Abdallah]

I just think that if we go around saying: "the Prophet is dead", we make people think we hold the belief of Ibn Furak.

Ha.. that's maybe true in certain circles.

I mean, in Morocco or among Moroccans Ive never heard anything of the Prophet or someone else being alive, if they lived in the past and died. So there, you don't have to confirm this fact and if you do that an thousand fold none will throw pebbles at you.

If you are in village of Bareilwis, I guess saying it would give you some trouble? Or you might be killed by stones..?

If you are among Salafis, I guess if you hammer on it and there is no reason for it, then maybe, maybe.. some salafi may frown up.

Anyway, Abu Bakr al-Siddiq said during the day of Banu Saqifa:

Indeed, Muhammad has died!

None accused him of Bid'ah or targeted him for it. So you should not be afraid of what's obvious. Like it is obvious, among the elite and the general masses, that the Prophet is dead and not alive, it is obvious for us Muslims that, cf., 'Isa is alive and not dead.

You know: the problem start when people are afraid for the obvious things, i.e. that the Qur'an is Arabic, Allah Speaks, in Arabic, Allah has Hands, that He Sees and Hears, that man has a will, Muhammad is dead, 'Isa is alive, Christians are deviated, Jews are cursed etc.

wa-Salam

[Abu Maryam PK]

Bismillah
w'alaikumussalam

Searched on google again & found that this is a difference of opinion & from what I can read in Urdu Ibn-Taymiyyah (RA), Imam Shawkani (RA), Shaykh Muhammad Ibn Abdul-Wahab (RA) are not only of the all of the same opinion (i.e. life of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) but also believe that the dead can hear the living? Quotes & references given in the article below

http://www.geocities.com/badr_313/hayat-nabi.htm

The article clearly quotes Ahle-Hadeeth Ulama of the past & present of the same opinion.
The article is a sham, a fraud, a deliberate deception. It says:
first it quotes ibn taymiyyah:
"...and similarly prophets and saints, even if they were to be alive in their grave and it were supposed that they pray for the dead, even if some reports came to that effect (the last part is not clear) even then it is not permissible for anyone to ask them to ask them any of these and noe of the salaf did that"

Now tell me, frst the deobandi author mis-translated the saying of ibn taymiyyah, then deliberately led us to believe that ibn taymiyyah's aqidah is the same as deobandi aqidah. Another Deobandi [hayatie] tampering.

it then goes on to say:

"it is sad that some arab scholars who ascribe themselves to ibn taymiyyah and their non-arab followers i.e. ghair-muqallids say that the Prophet sallallahoalaihiwasallam is lying motionless and senseless in his grave. The standing Committe of Saudi Arabia for fatwa (al-lajna al-daima) says 'in the grave the body does not move, be it prophet or non-prophet'. Similally the author of Al-Deobandiyyah sh taaliburrahman says "the mayyat (dead body) is after all a deadbody, regardless if it is a prophet or a non-prophet"...."

it then quotes some old salafi / ahlulhadith scolars to say that they believed in the prophet sallallahoalaihiwasallam hearing salams near his grave and taunts 'yes present ahlulhadith think their scholars were mistaken and they themselves know more Quraan and Hadith and their aqidah is more strongly based in tauheed'. It then quotes nawab waheed and mas'oo ahmed both of whom were not ahlul hadith and the latter considered ahlulhadith kaafirs. But both were painted as ahlulhadith, another Deobandi [hayatie] tampering.


Brother, we are not muqallids/blind followers of anyone, neither any ahlul hadith or ghair-ahlulhadith. We follow the truth where-ever it is. We are proud to be ahl-al-hadith not ahl-al-ahlalhadeeth.

[Abd al-Haqq Marshall]

Bismillah
assalamoalaikum
bro Tauheedullah, i am confounded. How come?

Don't get me wrong, I believe as all of you do, that the Prophets are alive in the barzakhiyya rather than dunyawiyya sense. It is undeniable that they have died, so our difference is purely semantical.

I only point out the hadith that says "The Prophets are alive in their graves and pray". I also point to this quote from Ibn al-Qayyim's Kitab ar-Ruh:

"It has been authentically narrated from the Prophet (pbuh) that the earth does not eat the bodies of the prophets, and that he (pbuh) assembled with the prophets on the Night of Journey and Ascension in Jerusalem and in the sky, especially with our master Moses (pbuh), and he told us that no Muslim greets him except that God returns his soul to him to return the greeting and other things from which it becomes definitive knowledge that the death of the prophets, upon them be peace, is that they become hidden from us so that we do not see them though they are present and alive, and such is the state of Angels for they are alive and present but we do not see them."

What I'm saying is that it is perfectly proper to say that the Prophets are alive, as long as one doesn't mean it in the sense that Ash'aris do.

[Tauheed]

Asalaam alaikum,

In regards to the Hadeeth about the Prophets praying in the grave, we would reconcile this by understanding the praying is in the Barzakh. It was the belief of Ibn Qayim al Jawziya that the Prophet is alive hence he would not take it to mean the grave in itself but rather the Barzakh.

Also another thing to ponder over is the Hadeeth that mentions to the affect (maybe someone can post the actual Hadeeth) that actions of the believer will cease except for the continuous actions such as Sadqa Jaariyah. Hence highlighting that there won't be any actions performed in the grave itself otherwise we could perform more actions and gain reward as opposed to just benefiting from the Sadqa Jaariyah

[Abd al-Haqq Marshall]

Asalaam alaikum,

In regards to the Hadeeth about the Prophets praying in the grave, we would reconcile this by understanding the praying is in the Barzakh.

I'm aware of this.

[Abd al-Haqq Marshall]

No problemo! But please tell us on what basis?

Because they follow the madhhab of Imam al-Azam Abu Hanifah (radiallahu anhu), who was one of the salaf (from the tabi'een), while you follow the madhhab of some semi-Shi'i from Yemen (Shawkani) who was in the employ of the Zaydi Imam there.

[Yasir]

Because they follow the madhhab of Imam al-Azam Abu Hanifah (radiallahu anhu), who was one of the salaf (from the tabi'een), while you follow the madhhab of some semi-Shi'i from Yemen (Shawkani) who was in the employ of the Zaydi Imam there.It is not befitting that you describe a scholar, the likes of Imam ash-Shawkani rahimahllah in that manner. Regardless of any differences you may have – which I hope are academic – that does not excuse your lack of respect for his ‘ilm and his contributions to the Islamic Sciences. If you are able to produce the likes of his work, then perhaps you are in a position to comment.

And just in case you think otherwise, you certainly aren’t doing any favours for the ahnaaf (or indeed anyone else for that matter) by imitating those in the subcontinent in addressing an ‘opponent’ like that. Recall the statement attributed to both Imam Abu Hanifah rahimahullah and Imam ash-Shaafi’î rahimahullah:إن لم يكن العلماء أولياء الله فليس لله ولي

[Abu Maryam PK]

Bismillah
Assalamoalaikum
regardless of whether it is correct to call some one the greatest imam or whether imam abu hanifa rahimahullah was a taba'ei or not(ibn hajr thinks not), or whether a great scholar should be called a simi-shia or whether there is such a thing called semi-shia or whether al-shawkani is the one who is founder of the madhhab of ahlulhadith or anything connected to the topic, please answer the following:
1) how many books/articles from mamati deobandies have u read?
2) how many of their scholars did u listen to?
3) how many of their sites did u wish?
4) how many and which sunni scholars do u know who recommend them?
5) how many mamatie brothers do u know?
and
6) replace the word 'mamati' with 'ahlulhadith' in all questions 1-5 ?

only then will we be able to gauge the soundness and fairness of your stance.

إن لم يكن العلماء أولياء الله فليس لله ولي

JK. a very true word. it says:
'if the scholars aren't the wali (friend) of Allah, then no one else can be Allah's wali'

[TN_Cat]

[QUOTE=Abu Maryam al Salafi;30965]Bismillahirahmanirrahim
Please have a look at this "Imaam" from South Africa:
http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=5299
http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=11272
http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=11040
http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=6967
http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=5784
http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=18381
Some of Desai's fatwa (this site was recently banned here), can also be accessed on Taqi Uthmani's site , al-balaagh.

================================================== =====
As-salamu'alaykum,

I knew a Brother recently that was off into this. He gave me the link to this "ask-iman" site. I diddnt like it because there were no Qu'ran verses or Ahadeeth provided to back any of it up. It's like who ever is answering the questions is just guessing.:(
I told him it smacked of Deobandi teachings and he flew off the handle and nearly lost his temper saying that Dobandi is not a deviant sect but a Country. He sent me a very harsh e mail and I came near to returning one even more harsh but stopped short of doing so because I deleted it by mistake. Al-hamdulallah. The whole thing left me with a sick feeling in my stomach.:( I dont want to have a war of words with a Bro in deen so I let it go.

[Abu Maryam PK]

Bismillah
http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=9221

[Abu Maryam PK]

Bismillah
<TABLE height=488 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 width="90%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=center align=left><TH class=FacetColumnTD scope=col noWrap colSpan=2 height=40><TABLE height=34 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=center><TD>Fatwa # 12121 from Canada </TD><TD align=right>Date: Tuesday, July 13th 2004 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TH></TR><TR><TD class=FacetSeparatorTD colSpan=3>Category</TD></TR><TR><TD class=FacetAltDataTD width="10%"> </TD><TD class=FacetAltDataTD width="90%" colSpan=2>Mathaahib (Schools of Thought)
</TD></TR><TR class=FacetSeparatorTD><TD colSpan=3>Title</TD></TR><TR><TD class=FacetAltDataTD> </TD><TD class=FacetAltDataTD colSpan=2>I have a question regarding your recent Fatwas regarding the Wahhabis...by your Fatwas you don't mean that they are not Muslims, do you?
</TD></TR><TR><TD class=FacetAltDataTD colSpan=3> </TD></TR><TR><TD class=FacetSeparatorTD colSpan=3>Question</TD></TR><TR><TD class=FacetAltDataTD> </TD><TD class=FacetAltDataTD colSpan=2>I recently read your Fatwas regarding the Wahhabis where you have said that they are out of the folds of the Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah. I am a Hanafi and I follow the Ulama of Deoband. I completely agree that there are differences between us and them and I also agree with the justifications of our Ulama regarding their beliefs and practices. However, I do think that why not we just concentrate on the common points between us and them. I have read the Fatawas of famous Saudi scholar, Sheikh Muhammad Salih al Munajjid regarding issues such as growing of the beard, clothes above ankles, women's niqab etc. They have the same opinion as us in these issues. Please do bear in mind that these are issues on which many Arab ulema don't have the correct opinion like those of Egypt. I am sure there must be more issues also on which we agree. This way we will be able to build a better understanding of each other. What do you say about it? Secondly, by your Fatwas you don't mean that they are not Muslims, do you? I mean they also pray 5 times a day, keep fasts, go for Hajj, pay Zakat etc. Most of their Ulama also have Sunnah attire. Kindly please answer these two questions. JazakAllah Khair
</TD></TR><TR><TD class=FacetAltDataTD colSpan=3> </TD></TR><TR><TD class=FacetSeparatorTD colSpan=3>Answer</TD></TR><TR><TD class=FacetAltDataTD> </TD><TD class=FacetAltDataTD colSpan=2>Being classified as part of the Ahlus sunnah wal Jama'ah or not, is not based on jurisprudence (Fiqh), it is on the basis of beliefs (Aqaaid). While in practice, the Wahabis are very similar to us, their completely incorrect beliefs demand that we highlight this to the public. As long as they aren't actively opposing us or spreading their Bidah Beliefs, we do not oppose them, but rather try to keep a good relationship with them. The Ulama of Deoband as a whole always had good relationships with the Saudi Ulama, however as a result of the number of books being published by the Wahabis against the Ulama of Deoband as well as their increasing efforts in spreading their Bidah beliefs and their public classifying the beliefs of the Asharis and Maaturidis as misguidance and shirk, our Ulama have been forced to reconsider our relationship with them. They remain in the fold of Islam, but are classified as Ahlul Bidah on account of their beliefs. and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best
Mufti Ebrahim Desai
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=0e7a7a19828fe9cc6ce4ed9c0a21418b

[Abu Maryam PK]

Bismillah
Spooky stuff:
<table style="width: 96%;" class="style7" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td class="style1">Question: 2043</td> <td class="style3">Pakistan</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table style="width: 96%;" class="style7" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td>
Do we get any benefits by doing spiritual communion (Muraqiba) at the graves of saints?

</td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table style="width: 100%;" class="style8"> <tbody><tr> <td> <table style="width: 96%;" class="style7" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td class="style2">Answer: 2043</td> <td class="style4">10 Nov, 2007</td> </tr> </tbody></table> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table style="width: 96%;" align="center" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <tbody><tr> <td>
Those who are perfect and well versed, they get benefit. Every layman is not allowed to do so; rather he is feared to be misled.

</td> </tr> <tr> <td>
and Allah (Subhana Wa Ta'ala) Knows Best

Darul Ifta, Darul Uloom Deoband
</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

[Abu Maryam PK]

Bismillah
In Fadhail e Sadaqaat of Sh Kandhalvi (Tablighi Deobandi Hayati)

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?t=11552

[Abdullah Ali al Hanafi]

Wa'alaikumussalam
Hmm....maybe Desai is taking that approach of not painting all Barelvis with the same brush, but he does paint all salafies with the same brush:
================================================== ===
I have a problem deciding which masjid to go to in my local area. This is because we have a wahabi masjid and a brelvi masjid (myself am deobandii). The wahabi masjid has two imams one who doesn’t wear a hat and one of the imams is clean shaven. They also place the quran in a low shelf on their bookshelf. The brelvi masjid has a picture of rasullah’s roza in the direction of prayer and it feels like we are bowing in front of it when we read namaz. Which of the two masjids do you recommend if any?
Answer:
If there is no other Musjid in the vicinity, try and determine the beliefs of the Imaam in the Barelwi Musjid. If his beliefs seem in order and outwardly he seems like a reliable person, you may continue following him. If you still feel uneasy, you may repeat your Salaat on your own. However, on no account should you abandon Salaat with Jamaat in the Musjid.
================================================== ==
Look, he never even recommended confirming the aqaid of salafies. That there was statue like picture infront of them is no big deal to him, being bare-headed is! As I said Hayatie Deobandies generally accomodate barelvis.They dont even call them Mushrik. They generally call the "Bid'aties".
Of course they call the wahabies, "Khawarij"

interesting post akhi , so wich deobandi scholars do you concider from ahle sunnah wal jamaah , i thought Mufti Taqi Usmani , his father Shafi Usmani were quite qualified and good ,?

[Abu Maryam PK]

Bismillah
'Mufti' Desai promoting shirk
Qaseeda Burdah Shareef
By Mufti Muhammad Kadwa
Posted: 11 Safar 1424, 13 April 2003
CHECKED AND APPROVED: Mufti Ebrahim Desai
<hr align="left" noshade="noshade" size="1"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td>Q.) I wanted to know if the Burdah Shareef by Imam Busairi is okay to read. I've heard some people say it's bidah due to some of the verses, but others say it's for the love of Prophet http://www.albalagh.net/_images/saws.gif. Please let me know. [Sara]</td></tr></tbody></table><hr align="left" noshade="noshade" size="1"> A.) Yes, it is permissible to read Qaseedah Burdah as the verses merely portray the immense love of the author for Rasulullah http://www.albalagh.net/_images/saws.gif.
However, this in no way can compare to the recitation of the noble Qur'an which is of paramount importance. And Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

http://www.albalagh.net/qa/qaseeda_burdah.shtml

[Abu Maryam PK]

Bismillah
interesting post akhi , so wich deobandi scholars do you concider from ahle sunnah wal jamaah , i thought Mufti Taqi Usmani , his father Shafi Usmani were quite qualified and good ,?

in the wider sense of 'sunni', yes they r. But then so r ash'aris,maturidis and a load of other heretics, who r not shi'a.

Mufti 'uthmani is no doubt one of the more serious deobandi scholars. I atended some of his friday khutbahs in karachi. He gave the khutbah standing up and without singing it [an innovation most deobandi imams fall into]. However if u read 'ulema e deoband kon thay' , 'taqlid ki shar'ii haisyat' and his 'dars e tirmidhi', u find he promotes the 'oficial' deobandi hayati line pretty stringently [and patheticaly] and never criticises his elders or at least the errors and mistakes they fall into. However his transactions on Islamic finance is much more widely appreciated, even in salafi circles. For example read this:
Reading Fazail-e-Amaal
By Mufti Taqi Usmani
Posted: 21 Rabi-u-Thani 1424, 21 June 2003
<hr align="left" noshade="noshade" size="1"><table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td>Q.) I would like to know your opinion on reading the book Fazail-e-Amaal by Maulana Muhammed Zakariya Kandhhalvi R.A. Many Saudi Alims have issued fatwas on the reading of the mentioned kitab that it contains too many weak and fabricated hadiths and that it is not permissible to read it. Please comment. [N Ahmed (UK)]</td></tr></tbody></table><hr align="left" noshade="noshade" size="1"> A.) The books of Fazail-e-Amaal are written by Molana Muhammad Zakariya Saharanpuri who himself was a very prominent scholar of Hadith and it is not imaginable that he had included some fabricated Ahadith in those books. However, it is true that some Ahadith of those books are of weak chain of narrators. But in the case of Fazail such Ahadith are accepted by a large number of Hadith scholars because they do not lay down the rule of Shariah. Rather, they mention the merit of an act that is already proved through an authentic source. Therefore, if these books contain such Ahadith it does not make any big difference and a Muslim can safely benefit from them.
http://www.albalagh.net/qa/fazail_amaal.shtml
It is well known that fazail e amaal contains fabricated narrations and baseless incidents. However, the only argument he presents is that since he is a big scholars, his doing so is unimaginable! That he does not know what arab and south asian scholars have written about the lies and fabrications contained in this book is unimaginable itself! I think it is the disease f ta'assub/partisanship that eats away the debandi hayatis.

[Yasir]

I too was a little surprised when I first read that answer. Although they are at times criticised unjustly, for some reason there exists this notion that to have an objective opinion on any issue, or to present your findings as a disagreement with those earlier is somehow equivalent to an contemptuous attack on the personal piety, integrity and character of the person being disagreed with. Unfortunately it is the truth that ultimately suffers.

What did you read that was disagreeable in his Dars-e-Tirmidhi? I haven’t read it all myself.

[Abu Maryam PK]

Bismillah

What did you read that was disagreeable in his Dars-e-Tirmidhi? I haven’t read it all myself.
Here are scans of some pages.
A dear friend who posts here, asked me to translate these, but i havent had the time. Perhaps in a few weeks. U can read for ur self. We discussed the matter on this forum under a thread on my cousin Faraz Rabbani's creed. Maybe u can search for it.

I had a copy of volume 2 of the book, but it appears to be lost during house shifting. A refreshing change is that he accepts that hanafi istidlaal from samurah bin jundub's hadith [wild horse's tails...] that raf'ul yadein is mansookh is weak [dars e tirmidhi, vol 2] but at other times he pushes the 'party line' pretty obviously. If i locate my copy i will try to scan it insha'Allah.

[Yasir]

JZK for the scans, I'll have a read through them. If i locate my copy i will try to scan it insha'Allah.I’ll have a look for it insha’Allah. I have the 3 volumes of Dars-e-Tirmidhi and the 2 volumes on Taqreer-e-Tirmidhi, which deals with mu’aamalaat.

[Abu Maryam PK]

I’ll have a look for it insha’Allah. I have the 3 volumes of Dars-e-Tirmidhi and the 2 volumes on Taqreer-e-Tirmidhi, which deals with mu’aamalaat.
taqreer is by sh mahmoud ul hasan, and is only in a single volume, published in arabic in preface to sunan tirmidhi by qadeemi kutub khana. Or there is another taqrir e tirmidhi?

[mhasan]

Bismillah
Would it be possible for you to scan the pages which Hafiz Salahudeen Yusuf quotes from in his lecture on Inkaar e Hadith? It can be found here: http://www.sendspace.com/file/mikopt

[Yasir]

taqreer is by sh mahmoud ul hasan, and is only in a single volume, published in arabic in preface to sunan tirmidhi by qadeemi kutub khana. Or there is another taqrir e tirmidhi?I don’t have a copy of the one by Sh. Mahmud al-Hassan. The one I’m referring to is “Taqreer-e-Tirmidhi” published by a student of Mufti Taqi at Darul-Iftaa in Darul-‘Ulum Karachi. It mostly deals with the mu’aamalaat.

Whilst we’re on the topic of Tirmidhi, what did you make of Ma’aarif as-Sunan?

[Abu Maryam PK]

Bismillah
didn't get a chance to read it. what's ur appreciation of it?

[Abu Maryam PK]

http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/<wbr>fatwa.php?askid=<wbr>ea1ac983c159012f9b928b425107d5<wbr>07 (http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=ea1ac983c159012f9b928b425107d507)

Mufti is approving toplessness of a woman in home even in front her father in law. How disgusting!

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

there is some kind of language thing here, I'm sure he doesn't mean topless like as in the chest, I think he is referring to The head. i.e. khimaar.

wa ALLAHU A'LAM

[WM]

It is permissible for you to obey your husband if he wants you to only cover from the knees to the navel including the stomach and the back in your house in the presence of your mother, sister and father in-law if there is no fear of fitna. If there is a fear of fitna in anyway, then it will not be permissible for you to expose those body parts in the presence of your in laws.

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

from the knees to the navel including the stomach and the back


The shubha is with the "back" i.e. how do you cover your back without covering the front i.e. chest?

I mean I've heard of "open-back" dresses (is that what they are called? :) ) but open front closed back dresses? :)

wa ALLAHU A'lam

[WM]

I think he means 'what is of the back below the navel'- this is evident from his 'knees to navel' take on things. He is right, though- this is the `awra, isn't it? But he does add that you should cover more if you fear fitna, and since this kind of monkey business is very unusual in this day and age, I definitely agree!

[safdl]

http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/<wbr>fatwa.php?askid=<wbr>ea1ac983c159012f9b928b425107d5<wbr>07 (http://www.askimam.org/fatwa/fatwa.php?askid=ea1ac983c159012f9b928b425107d507)

Mufti is approving toplessness of a woman in home even in front her father in law. How disgusting!


Its rather surprising only you understood it that way...

Im surprised you didnt pick up on the question...

I am a married female living with my in-laws i.e. father in-law, mother in-law and my husband’s sister. My husband says I can only cover between my navel and knees in front of them...

Is she incinuating that she is being asked to walk around topless and wearing shorts? no fear of shame? cold? heat? or seeing as she is from pakistan (no offense) and English not being her first language she used incorrect wording

Explain how you can cover your back but not your front and freely move about? id love to know...

[islamiclife]

As-Salamu 'Alaykum

I've no words to describe this but we should pay some attention to the question and then the answer

my comments in red

Question:
Sir I am a married female living with my in-laws i.e. father in-law, mother in-law and my husband’s sister. My husband says I can only cover between my navel and knees [this can be done via a piant or something of that sort; how does this cover the top?] in front of them because they are unmarriageable to me and there is no sign of lust or fitna. He says I can roam in home like this If my husband has no problem with my being topless in home and only covered between navel and knees and abdomen and back of abdomen. [the sister emphasized on the part topless, meaning the husband only wants her cover her below navel private parts] i also belive that there is no possibility of fitna because two are muslim women in the house and my father in law is my father in law [sister got it all wrong here; she is not allowed to show her private parts to anyone excpect her husband whether fitna or not fitna]. My husband also say’s that they can also touch those parts if needed as they are unlawful to marry and if there is no lust. please tell me as soon as possible that is it sinful or not,to only cover those parts between navel and knee and going topless with bare breasts and please I know being modest is good but what in this case when my husband has no problem and says I can? And I am asking only in front of muslim women and mehrem men.please don’t tell about non-mehrem men I know that.now, interesting part is that the Mufti Sahab didn't say anything about uncovering the parts in front of other mehrems rather he said that it is permissible to do so
It is permissible for you to obey your husband if he wants you to only cover from the knees to the navel including the stomach and the back When he said cover the stomach and the back, he's not talking about the whole back here, otherwise he would have said cover the front/chest and the back. The stomach and the back of the stomach can be covered with a shalwar. Also, remember that the sister was specifically asking about being topless. Even if we say that this is not what he really meant, then he should have at least clarified a bit.

Wallahu A'lam

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

i still believe that they understood 'topless' to mean 'without khimaar/headcovering' wa Allahu a'lam

[safdl]

Its rather surprising only you understood it that way...

Im surprised you didnt pick up on the question...

I am a married female living with my in-laws i.e. father in-law, mother in-law and my husband’s sister. My husband says I can only cover between my navel and knees in front of them...

Is she incinuating that she is being asked to walk around topless and wearing shorts? no fear of shame? cold? heat? or seeing as she is from pakistan (no offense) and English not being her first language she used incorrect wording

Explain how you can cover your back but not your front and freely move about? id love to know...

Apologies there abu maryam

It seems as though what you said is whats being replied to....

In the question detail it says about bare breasts

please tell me as soon as possible that is it sinful or not,to only cover those parts between navel and knee and going topless with bare breasts

The next question here i suppose is what does the arabic script exactly state...

[Adeel]

What kind of a husband he was?!!!!

[Abu Maryam PK]

The next question here i suppose is what does the arabic script exactly state...
i will translate that iA.
The thing is that whether or not that is an opinion in Hanafi fiqh or of other scholars, it is apparent that the question may have been 'planted' or ('loaded' in american jargon) by someone knowing it is an opinion in hanafi fiqh. It may have been by a kafir orientalist. U can tell from the wording of the question. Or it may be sincere. But the muftis could have been a lot more imaginative and answered it in a way that would not bring the religion in disrepute. Stupid opinions exist everywhere, but in a mature academic setting, as in a centuries old madhhab, they donot become the opinions on which fatawa are passed. But it takes a true muqallid to place the opinions of madhhab over his faculty of hikmah and ijtihaad! This after having become an "aalim" after 8 years of rigorous study.

[kamran]

i will translate that iA.
The thing is that whether or not that is an opinion in Hanafi fiqh or of other scholars, it is apparent that the question may have been 'planted' or ('loaded' in american jargon) by someone knowing it is an opinion in hanafi fiqh. It may have been by a kafir orientalist. U can tell from the wording of the question. Or it may be sincere. But the muftis could have been a lot more imaginative and answered it in a way that would not bring the religion in disrepute. Stupid opinions exist everywhere, but in a mature academic setting, as in a centuries old madhhab, they donot become the opinions on which fatawa are passed. But it takes a true muqallid to place the opinions of madhhab over his faculty of hikmah and ijtihaad! This after having become an "aalim" after 8 years of rigorous study.

With mujtahids like these, who needs...

Precisely the reason why Taqleed is a mindset and not an act. Sigh!

[abu imaan an-nepalee]

i will translate that iA.
The thing is that whether or not that is an opinion in Hanafi fiqh or of other scholars, it is apparent that the question may have been 'planted' or ('loaded' in american jargon) by someone knowing it is an opinion in hanafi fiqh. It may have been by a kafir orientalist. U can tell from the wording of the question. Or it may be sincere. But the muftis could have been a lot more imaginative and answered it in a way that would not bring the religion in disrepute. Stupid opinions exist everywhere, but in a mature academic setting, as in a centuries old madhhab, they donot become the opinions on which fatawa are passed. But it takes a true muqallid to place the opinions of madhhab over his faculty of hikmah and ijtihaad! This after having become an "aalim" after 8 years of rigorous study.

Thats right bro, good points jzk and that is made worse with those who are extreame in their taqleed!