Family member who is homosexual? [Archive]

Mu'awiya

12th June 2007, 03:05 PM

Well, looky look...
And what happened with your arguements when you were trying to convince me that homosexualism is exclusively a product of our western society and that God couldn't possibly make a mistake to make a person feel attraction for the same sex, so there couldn't possibly be homosexualism among Muslims?

And what do I see now? Seems that there are queer Muslims after all, doesn't it?

There is much support from the scientific community to suggest that homosexuality is caused by environmental factors, not genetic. I don't have a problem if you want to believe that its genetic, since it makes no difference to my argument, but you have to recognize that there is another scientific view on this as well. The two views:1. genetic- people are born either homo or hetrosexual
2. environmental - homosexuality is a condition which develops in someone due to external influence

Now the Question might come up:

"If that's the way they were born, why did Allah make them that way?"

Okay, so let's suppose that view 1 (genetic) is the correct view. So why did Allah swt create them with homosexual tendencies? The answer is simple - it is a test for them. They must not act on these desires but must bear patiently and restrain themselves. Just as people born with the desire to commit fornication and must restrain their desires. Disabled people may have to restrain their desires for their whole lives and bear their condition patiently.

morbius

12th June 2007, 03:56 PM

I think that homosexuality is genetic, because it is also observed in animals. Scientists believe that it might be caused by hormonal disbalances during pregnancy. Cause is unknown, but we do know that it is incurable.

From Muslim perspective, this opens all kinds of interesting questions. If God is testing people by making them gay, their reward for resisting their urges must be paradise. Homosexuality might be allowed in the afterlife, just the way wine is.
I just hope that Umm doesn't see this thread, with her kill-'em-all attitude toward edited she would flip.

Mu'awiya

12th June 2007, 04:31 PM

I think that homosexuality is genetic, because it is also observed in animals. Scientists believe that it might be caused by hormonal disbalances during pregnancy. Cause is unknown, but we do know that it is incurable.

And There's proof that homosexuality is environmental.

If you want to use the argument that even animals perform acts of homosexuality, then do you eat the person you perform sexual intercourse with? Because spiders do:

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/mg18625005.800-female-spiders-try-eating-mate-even-before-sex.html

From Muslim perspective, this opens all kinds of interesting questions. If God is testing people by making them gay, their reward for resisting their urges must be paradise. Can you imagine gay orgies in heaven? :) I just hope that Umm doesn't see this thread, with her kill-'em-all attitude toward [b[edited[/b] she would flip.

You've given the answer in your own post, THIS life is a test. The hereafter isn't a test anyway, it's either pure reward or pure punishment. So no-one will need to be tested there, and the righteous dwellers of Paradise will be on the correct way without any faults or evils. Whereas the disbelievers will face the reality, and they won't have a chance to turn back and do good. They will be dwellers of the fire.

morbius

12th June 2007, 04:54 PM

Well, I am by no means expert on this subject (thank God), so I could be wrong.
Still, I remember reading report of a zoo menager about in how many species of birds and mammals he noticed homosexual behavior. It is not something unique to humans, which implies a genetic origin.
If homosexuality was enviromental, shouldn't change of enviroment or some kind of psychotherapy help those people? Yet, they stay gay for life.

MosDef

12th June 2007, 04:56 PM

Many "gay" people do change. Its not a irreversible condition.

Mu'awiya

12th June 2007, 05:07 PM

If homosexuality was enviromental, shouldn't change of enviroment or some kind of psychotherapy help those people? Yet, they stay gay for life.

Many "gay" people do change. Its not a irreversible condition.

That's exactly what i was going to say! :)

MosDef

12th June 2007, 05:08 PM

Haha apologies akh i stole your thunder :)

Ibn Adam

12th June 2007, 05:23 PM

Many animals eat their young, so can we conclude from this that cannibalism in humans is genetic and therefore an acceptable practice?

waziri

12th June 2007, 06:08 PM

Many animals eat their young, so can we conclude from this that cannibalism in humans is genetic and therefore an acceptable practice?

Yes exactly excellent points ikhwan morerubbish as usual is using flawed reasoning in his arguments in a feeble attempt to cause ftna on the forum.

Morerubbish your arguments are pathetic my muslim brothers and sisters have strong Iman by the blessing of Allah the most powerfull you will never succeed in trying to cause any shadow of a doubt in the minds of the believers who Allah has protected from you and your kind

morbius

12th June 2007, 06:21 PM

Well, I am little worried when I see how many experts on homosexuality there is among you. And I'm even more worried when I ask myself how did you become such experts. :D

You all seem to insist that homosexuality is enviromental. But if it is, doesn't it mean that Islamic enviroment is not immune to this problem, since there are gay Muslims?

waziri

12th June 2007, 06:25 PM

As usual you are spouting morerubbish, who has claimed to be a expert on homosexuality? Just because the brothers rubbished your stupid attempt at a argument.

Why dont you go and find yourself a serbian racist forum where your posts might just might be appreciated?

Mu'awiya

12th June 2007, 06:26 PM

Well, I am little worried when I see how many experts on homosexuality there is among you. And I'm even more worried when I ask myself how did you become such experts. :D

If you're not an expert, and you bring an argument forth - and we bring a similar or even stronger argument forth, then that kinda neutralises yours.

You all seem to insist that homosexuality is enviromental. But if it is, doesn't it mean that Islamic enviroment is not immune to this problem, since there are gay Muslims?

Gay muslims can be in the west too, which means that they can get influenced by the gays in the west. And now that this is spreading onto other parts of the world, then we can say that it is due to environmental factors. i.e. mass media etc.

Anyway we're debating over nothing now, so that's sufficient.

Regards.

mm12

12th June 2007, 06:28 PM

Well, I am little worried when I see how many experts on homosexuality there is among you. And I'm even more worried when I ask myself how did you become such experts. :D

Yes, we're all secretly homosexual, however did you guess?

You all seem to insist that homosexuality is enviromental. But if it is, doesn't it mean that Islamic enviroment is not immune to this problem, since there are gay Muslims ?

Muslims are not immune to the problem...no. Who ever said they were?

There are Muslim murderers, rapists, thieves.....doesn't mean its justified in Islam...or even a product of Islamic environment.

aburasheed

12th June 2007, 07:51 PM

You want an expert evaluation, here you go:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3251663&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

morbius

12th June 2007, 10:57 PM

Yes, we're all secretly homosexual, however did you guess?
Just a lucky guess. :)
I've put a smiley in my previous post, I thought it is obvious that I was joking.

Muslims are not immune to the problem...no. Who ever said they were?
One very homophobic British convert on this forum.

There are Muslim murderers, rapists, thieves.....doesn't mean its justified in Islam...or even a product of Islamic environment.
This is basically what I wanted to say all along. Homosexuality is all-present phenomenon, not a concequence of our way of life.
Problem lies in Muslims who would not accept that such things do happen in Islamic enviroments. Even if they do admit that Muslims can be murderers, rapists or queers in their mind it is always because non-Muslims corrupted them somehow. It's always somebody else's fault.

MosDef

12th June 2007, 11:02 PM

I think its true to a point. One example i can think of is the tradition of marrying boys in Kandahar or somewhere in Afghanistan.

Alhamdulillah this was one of the main reasons the Taleban stormed to power with popular support to crush this filthy behaviour.

Obviously others will argue there was not much "islamic" about those people or the environment and how the "Islamic" Taleban attacked and destroyd this behaviour. Which is valid also.

Abu GG

13th June 2007, 12:10 AM

Abu Ilyas

13th June 2007, 08:14 AM

If it was genetic, evolution would work to expel this gene which goes 200% against the fundamentals of evolution. However, homosexuality has been seen to increase, and is therefore environmental. Think about it in relation to Menedelian inheritance charts and how it presents a totally negative correlation with prevalence patterns.

And the idea that God would test someone by creating him homosexual is just bizzarre. Think about it, why would God punish the people of Lot so severely for their homo crimes if it was God in the first place that placed that bent urge in them? It doesn't make sense. Clearly, homosexuals are to blame in the first place for exposing themselves to environments that nurture their gay tendancies within before getting expressed through action.

I'm not 100% sure about that. Is it not be possible that Allah created individuals with particular inclinations which could leave them more prone to certain types of sins? for example a man who was created with an abnormally large sexual desire..he is still sinning if he fornicates, that extra sexual desire is a test for him. We don't say that Allah cannot have created someone like that, because we see men like that all the time. Similar with other sins, like homosexuality. So in this case there would be no contradiction in Allah creating someone with homo tendencies and punishing them for homosexual acts just as in the case of Zina.

Personally, I am inclined to think that homosexuality is a consequence of environment for the majority of homosexuals but I don't know or see of any strong evidence in the Islamic sources to suggest that Allah could not have created such people like that. Would be much obliged if brothers could provide any evidence which seems to prove this point conclusively.

We should also remember that we should not make blanket and general statements like 'Allah would not create homosexuals, or people that way incline' just based on logic without a clear text for 2 reasons:

1) It could be regarded as speaking about Allah without knowledge, which is a huge sin. It is also a point of Aqida' so we should not speculate about it but stick to the texts.

2)It could be that a sincere muslim or non muslim homosexual reads this and thinks he is doomed, even though he believes he was born as he is..so we turn some one away from Islam and deeper into his sin.

Allah Knows Best

AI

Abu GG

13th June 2007, 11:02 AM

We should also remember that we should not make blanket and general statements like 'Allah would not create homosexuals, or people that way incline' just based on logic without a clear text for 2 reasons:

1) It could be regarded as speaking about Allah without knowledge, which is a huge sin. It is also a point of Aqida' so we should not speculate about it but stick to the texts.

2)It could be that a sincere muslim or non muslim homosexual reads this and thinks he is doomed, even though he believes he was born as he is..so we turn some one away from Islam and deeper into his sin.

Allah Knows Best

AI

Some absolutely fantastic points you have there. May Allah spare me if I have erred.

The point that I was pointing at was the severity of punishment. I posed it as a question. Why would God punish so severely if He created them like that, and they were failing an increased-difficulty test? Would not their sin in the sight of Allah be slightly more 'forgivable' (I felt a bit awkward using 'understandable') because the test was made hard anyway?

The angle I'm coming from, is that I believe that the same sin can be slightly less serious, depending on circumstances. Would not a man with constant high-sexual desire be less sinful commiting zina than a man with low sexual desire but commits zina anyway? And therefore his punishment lightened?

UmmAbdulMalikStorm

13th June 2007, 11:20 AM

aburasheed

13th June 2007, 02:31 PM

Not that i watch it...

But there's this guy in big brother who converted to Islam after 9/11 and was, according to him, really practicing. However, about a year ago he decided he was gay and left Islam coz he thought "Allah wouldn't be too happy."

*gasps*

What do u do with ppl like that?
“Say: 'O My slaves who have transgressed against themselves (by committing evil deeds and sins)! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah, verily Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” [Soorah az-Zumar 53]

Mu'awiya

13th June 2007, 06:33 PM

Asalaamu alaikum warahmatulah wabarakatuh.

There is scientific research i think from both sides that it is either biological, yet there is research which states that it is environmental also. Therefore those who claim it is genetical, then they need to realise that there is research to state otherwise also.

What akh AbuGG said is subhan Allaah a kool refutation if one was to talk to someone who believed in the evolution theory, and the argument about there being animals who perform the act is weak because we don't compare ourselves to animals, if we were to - then AbuGG's argument would fall into place again, and the issue which i explained earlier about the female spider eating her male partner seems surprising, and humans don't do that - so comparing ourselves to animals is a nullified argument.

Regarding the guy from big brother, i heard about that also. I think the best advice we could give someone like that is to say that giving up Islaam isn't the best thing to do, even if one is sinning. Rather the person - even if commiting major sins - is still a muslim, and Allaah is testing you the same way He is testing someone who is disabled, or someone who has a high sexual desire, and if he remains patient and does it through a permissible means - it may be that Allaah may bring a great deal of good through it, and that we all are tested through different ways.

We should also explain that Islaam means submission to the will of Allaah, and not Islaam submitting to us. Yet a muslim who does wrong is better than the best of the disbelievers. And if you are really sincere in Islaam, then you should place your trust in Allaah, it may be that He provides you from ways you don't expect, the same way Allaah provides for those who are ex-addicts, no matter what the addiction may have been. And He is the Most Merciful.

And Allaah knows best.

mika

25th June 2007, 04:01 PM

YES....here we go again, punishment, sin, and the best one, Allah make people homosexuals to test them........COME ON!!!!!

I think that this guy from Big Brother that left Islam is a hero....,and really, he just realized how intolerant Islam is and left...many more of you good people should do the same.

An ideology (ISLAM) that pretends to be so beautiful, and then at the same time is so violent to the ones that do not follow the so called divine rules, is useless.

So dear people, leave Islam and move to a non Islam dominated country, thats the only way to live in freedom.

By the way what kind of "divine" punishment shall you son or daughter receive when they come and tell you that they want to live as homosexuals....because of course they shall be punished don't you agree!!:eek:

BR
Mika

Mu'awiya

25th June 2007, 05:59 PM

Allah make people homosexuals to test them........COME ON!!!!!

There is proof from both sides, i already explained that there is proof from both sides, including those who say that it's environmental only.

Then we stated that IF (for arguments sake)it is genetical, then it is still a test. The same way disabled people are tested, rich people, poor people etc. Yet we would be likely to learn towards the environmental studies since Allaah narrates to us the story of the people of Prophet Lut:

"Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males,

"And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates (i.e. wives)? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"

[Qur'an 26: 165-166]

“And (remember) Loot (Lot), when he said to his people: ‘Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the ‘Aalameen (mankind and jinn)?

Verily, you practise your lusts on men instead of women. Nay, but you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (by committing great sins)’”

[al-A’raaf 7:80-81]

So if none before Prophet Lut have done the act - and them people got destroyed, then that's sufficient to know that homosexuality is environmental rather than genetic.

Peace.

Abuz Zubair

25th June 2007, 06:12 PM

mika, do you believe that incest should be allowed? How about bestiality?

mika

25th June 2007, 09:33 PM

Hi Guys,

This discussion was not necessary if you and your "peaceful" ideology, Islam, accepted that people are different, and to be different is not necessary something that NEEDS to be changed.

Your reference is Allah and the Quran, you have chosen thevery easy way in life because you simply just have to follow the rules of Allah, and then you are the "good" guys.

The main problem is just that your reference is man-made, and can be interpreted in thousand different ways, also by humans (like yourself Abuz Zubair), so if you Abuz Zubair or you Mu'awiya decides that you do not like homosexuals, you just interbred the words in the Quran so that it fit your opinion.
Basically a good old trick that Christianity used 200-300 years ago and you still use.

Abuz Zubair, no I will not allow incest and bestiality and how does that come up in this context? ...... please explain to me where the comparison between incest and homosexuality is..? do homosexual hurt other people because they are homosexual what do you exactly mean?

Again, I do not know what went wrong with you muslin men, something went completely haywire.. your unnatural fear of women, and sex.....

Enjoy life guys, take it easy, and ask questions instead of just follow an old book...and then consider if your reference are really worth following

BR
Mika

Abuz Zubair

25th June 2007, 09:46 PM

Abuz Zubair, no I will not allow incest and bestiality and how does that come up in this context? ...... please explain to me where the comparison between incest and homosexuality is..?

Well, you argue for tolerance towards homosexuality, on the premise of sexual freedom. Why wouldn't you avail such freedom to a brother and sister in love?

What is the maxim you use to determine what form of sexual relations be allowed or outlawed?

mika

25th June 2007, 09:57 PM

Very easy to answer Abuz Zubair, what two adult human beeing like to do together is their own busniss, as long as both of them agree.

Again Abuz Zubair please explain to me where the comparison between incest and homosexuality is..? do homosexual hurt other people because they are homosexual what do you exactly mean?

BR
Mika

gag order

25th June 2007, 11:55 PM

I think that this guy from Big Brother that left Islam is a hero....,and really, he just realized how intolerant Islam is and left

he left becos he wanted to push the 'sh*%' up! which he felt he couldnt do as a muslim. he quite rightly equated sodomy with western lifestyle choices that were not available in islam. so far from bieng a hero, he is just gay or are you saying he is a hero becos he's a poof?

there seems to be a relation between pedophiles who reportedly prefer boys and queers demanding the age of concent to be lowered so that they can pull younger faggots?
then there is the incestuos connection between two related males which may also develop into a lifestyle choice.

Abuz Zubair

26th June 2007, 08:37 AM

Very easy to answer Abuz Zubair, what two adult human beeing like to do together is their own busniss, as long as both of them agree.

So incest is ok for you if a brother and sister agree?

mika

26th June 2007, 09:06 AM

Hi Abuz Zubair,

Before we go on here, how do you define incest, I just want to be sure that we are talking about the same thing.

gag order...nice to have you back... kicking and curseing like always:)

BR
Mika

Abuz Zubair

26th June 2007, 10:15 AM

Definition of incest:

Sexual intercourse between persons who are related to each other within the degrees where marriage is prohibited by law

Irrespective of the definition, and whether or not you agree with the reference to 'law' in the definition, do you support sexual relations between a brother and sister?

mika

26th June 2007, 01:08 PM

Hi Abuz Zubair,

If a brother and sister want to have a relation, also sexual, it is not my business (or Allah's or yours) , this is only between those two people, why should I interfere with that, let them do what they like?

The interesting thing here is that family related marriages are very common in especially muslin communities where as it is not very common between native western people...

But back to the homosexuals, Abuz Zubair, what shall we do with them...those terrible unnatural people that do not comply with peaceful Allah's laws...

BR
Mika

Abuz Zubair

26th June 2007, 04:22 PM

mika, so let me get this straight from you... You have absolutely no problem with a brother and sister having sex?

How about a mother and son? Or father and daughter? Is that ok with you, too?

26th June 2007, 07:55 PM

Mika, I really hope you don't have any relatives who visit this forum, you sick muther.

mika

26th June 2007, 08:33 PM

Abuz Zubair, lets get something straight from you...

What is it EXATELY you want to do with the homosexuals.....you have not answered me yet, you just come up with counter questions.

SO.. Abuz Zubair what are you going to do with your son or daughter if/when they come and tell you that they want to live together with a person with the same sex?

BR
Mika

Abuz Zubair

26th June 2007, 08:37 PM

mika...

answer the question:

mika, so let me get this straight from you... You have absolutely no problem with a brother and sister having sex?

How about a mother and son? Or father and daughter? Is that ok with you, too?

Do you think incest should be allowed by law? Like son-mother sexual relationship.

Just a Yes/No answer would do. Thank you.

mika

26th June 2007, 09:39 PM

Abuz Zubair, you really seems to be squezeed into a corner here don't you..;)

The object of this thread was what to say and mean about homosexuals, and now when you cannot argument, you turn away from the subject and try to entrap me in other sexual habbits.

I have no problems in discussing incest, actually I think we should start up a new thread to discuss this, but this thread is about homosexuals.

SO.....Abuz Zubair What is it EXATELY you want to do with the homosexuals.....????

BR
Mika

Abuz Zubair

26th June 2007, 09:44 PM

Mika... I have no trouble answering your questions if you answer mine. I was the first to ask you question here.

It is a very simple yes/no question. Do you think a mother and son should be allowed to have sex by law?

Yes? No?

If you answer, we can very easily tackle the topic of homosexuality. I have no doubt you know the link between the two topics which is why you refuse to answer a simple and straightforward, yes/no question.

The fact that you are so hesitant in answering such a simple questions only goes to show that somewhere deep within yourself you actually like the idea of incest. Otherwise, you would have quickly demonstrated your sickness at the idea. But you failed to do so, which is worrying.

Do you like incest, mika?

mika

26th June 2007, 10:21 PM

Abuz Zubair.....:) .stick to the subject, as I said lets make a new thread about insest, it seems to interrest you.

But back to homosexuals.....Abuz Zubair...what do we do with them...come on my friend, it is really an easy question, is't it?

By the way Abuz Zubair, some people needs to hide their real sexuality, do you do that Abuz Zubair.. because you have to due to Allah's divine laws...

BR
Mika

Abuz Zubair

26th June 2007, 10:43 PM

I promise you, if you answer my question about incest, I will answer your question about homosexuality, because they are both linked.

You've only shown your narrow-mindedness and bigotry by refusing to answer a straight forward question.

Stand in front of the mirror and lecture yourself about the failed liberalism of yours. We are quite happy with our religion that has remain consistent through out the ages.

mika

26th June 2007, 11:13 PM

vHi Abuz Zubair,

Nice to hear that you are happy about religion, the question is just if homosexual islamic men or women are so happy........what do you think?

You never answered the original question that started the hole thread Abuz Zubair, so why don't you give a clear answer to Mu'awiya that started the thread?

BR
Mika

Abu Dajana

26th June 2007, 11:17 PM

Just answer his question since he asked first. No need to go back and forth and make this topic longer then it should be. It's a waste of space if you ask me.

Abuz Zubair

26th June 2007, 11:24 PM

Husain

26th June 2007, 11:38 PM

I don't care about mu'awiya. I asked YOU the question.

I didn't know it would be so difficult (if not impossible) to get an answer from you on something as serious as incest. The only suggestion you give us all is that you actually do not have a problem with incest.
To me this suggests something else. The answer to the question is quite clear and Mika knows this as well. But I think he is well aware of the problem that will arise if he answers the question honestly: How can he condemn incest if the only yardstick is the mutual agreement of both parties (which is his only argument in favour of homosexuality)?

- Husain.

mika

27th June 2007, 08:04 PM

Ok Abuz Zubair.

Lets see what we can conclude from this conversation..

Many muslins have a huge problem with the fact that some men and women are attracted to human of the same sex.

We can also see that you do not want to share your view on homosexuals, but you, Allah and properly many other muslins, feel a holly duty to kick the baaaad homosexuals back into what you and Allah decide is right.....

Finally, we can see is that the muslin culture condemn and in many muslin countries, hunt down, kill homosexuals or expel them from family and friends relations, simply because they are homosexuals, all because Allah says so.....

Your ideology Islam, and your god, Allah is a dark ideology Abuz Zubair, you do not take any decisions yourself, you just follow an old book (Quran), and if the old book tells to expel, isolate, certain people, you just follow this blindly..

Abuz Zubair start to think yourself, ask questions and leave the dark Ideology of Islam, and start to accept that some human beings are different from yourself.

All the best Abuz Zubair I hope soon find the way out of this human-hostile ideology,

BR
Mika

Abuz Zubair

27th June 2007, 08:26 PM

Abuz Zubair start to think yourself, ask questions and leave the dark Ideology of Islam, and start to accept that some human beings are different from yourself.

All the best Abuz Zubair I hope soon find the way out of this human-hostile ideology,

lol... you've hardly managed to convince yourself let alone anyone else here! :)

You know our views on homosexuality. I *think* we know your views on incest, too - or do we?

You're akin to a bible thumper knockin' on our doors: 'Believe! Christ is the way!' Yet when you get down to the nitty-gritty of it, you haven't a clue what you're on about. But that won't prevent you from shouting loud of 'salvation'.

This is what you are, mika, just a secularist-liberal-bible thumper.

Well, mika, here is good news for you: I don't, and cannot believe in your message if you yourself fail to understand it.

mika

27th June 2007, 09:25 PM

Hi Abuz Zubair

Feel free to choose, go for christianity, become homosexual, become hindu, become atheist, become budist, feel free to chose my friend :), but that is your problem is'nt it Abuz Zubair, you Allah, and the Islamic ideology really do not like the concept of personal choise and accept of alternative thinking......do you?

BR
Mika

Abuz Zubair

27th June 2007, 09:29 PM

mika... instead of ranting and raving, I am sure you can have a fruitful discussion, only if we were to address each others' concerns.

I really don't think you're intellectual capable of that. You've let your religion of secular-liberalism down.

ibnislam

3rd July 2007, 01:31 PM

Assalaamu alaykum,

Just throwing my 2 bits in to see who might benefit.

Alcoholism has been shown to be brought on by environment OR genetics. We know that some babies are born alcholics if their mothers were heavy drinkers during pregnancy, and we also know that people's behavior later in life also lead them to alcoholism.

Another thing to note also is that children of alcoholics are more prone to be alcoholics themselves (even if they didn't live with their biological parents).

If all these facts are as I remembered, then does that mean that a person who has a genetic disorder has the right to claim "It was my disposition anyway, so it's only morally right that I give in to it"?

Homosexuality might be genetically induced sometimes, but it doesn't mean that's what one ought to be, but rather something to be OVERCOME.

Ma'assalaam

mika

3rd July 2007, 09:28 PM

Hi ibnislam,

Just to be sure that I understand you right, is your point that homosexuality is something that can/shall be "cured" like alcoholism?
Also, do you agree that it is a persons personal choise to chose if he/she wants to live "normal" life, of if he/she wants to live a homosexual life?

BR
Mika

3rd July 2007, 11:20 PM

Mika, ****edited**** you sick troll

ibnislam

3rd July 2007, 11:42 PM

Just to be sure that I understand you right, is your point that homosexuality is something that can/shall be "cured" like alcoholism?

Yes. Homosexual urges are a disease that need to be and can be cured through devotion to Allah, and at no time is it allowed to act on these urges. We know that Lot(A)'s people were destroyed for their refusal to leave this act. Even if they were not the first to experience these urges, they were the first to act on them.

Also, do you agree that it is a persons personal choise to chose if he/she wants to live "normal" life, of if he/she wants to live a homosexual life?

The devil may play all kinds of whispers in a person's chest, but the choice to do or abstain from those desires is his, granted to him by Allah. That choice has consequences attached to it, though.

Abu Dajana

3rd July 2007, 11:58 PM

He isn't into sisters. Why do you think he's defending homosexuality that much.

4th July 2007, 12:20 AM

tou·ché /tuˈʃeɪ/ [too-shey]

–interjection
1. Fencing. (an expression used to indicate a hit or touch.)
2. (an expression used for acknowledging a telling remark or rejoinder.)

AbuAliTheRoman

28th August 2007, 10:57 PM

I think that homosexuality is genetic, because it is also observed in animals. Scientists believe that it might be caused by hormonal disbalances during pregnancy. Cause is unknown, but we do know that it is incurable.

1)Where is your solid proof?

2)Since when has anyone based anyhting on what one thinks alone, without 1) above?

walid

28th August 2007, 11:17 PM

homosexuality is a sickness it is not natural, medically speaking the penis has not been designed to be inserted up the anus..Everything has a design of purpose..so such acts as sodomy should be cured. If someone has a genetic illness we do try to cure them, so why shouldn't we acknowlegde homosexuality as an illness and find a cure for it also?

mika

31st August 2007, 04:29 PM

Hi walid

Sickness is something you cure if the sick person wants to cured, or if the person is seriously mentally ill.

Homosexuals do not want to cured.

Your arguments are exactly the same that Hitler and the Nazist used to justify extermination of homosexuals, Judes, and mentally ill people during World War II.

Do you walid, and your divine ideology Islam, feel close relation with Nazism?

BR
Mika

walid

31st August 2007, 05:34 PM

"Sickness is something you cure if the sick person wants to cured, or if the person is seriously mentally ill"

so your saying you have a choice? there is no choice if I have an illness which effects society then by law I am required to take a vaccine e.g polio, smallpox etc some things are done for the overall better of society.

Do you walid, and your divine ideology Islam, feel close relation with Nazism?

Nazism is a western concept whose roots are based on western ideology! since when have you europeans been so caring about the jews? you've spent the last few centuries massacring them and now they are to be protected. You people are so caring, wasn't it your parents who massacred the red indians, the inuits, the Aborigenes? Did you know the Tasmanian Aborigenes are extinct, killed off by your parents? why are you so concerned about extinct dinosaurs but not people? Did'nt you people with your human rights give away someones country (palestine) to the very people you tried to exterminate? Who is the facist? name me one country where the whiteman went that still has a native viable population?

Who used the 1st and 2nd atomic bombs on civilians? was'nt it winston churchill in WW1 that used gas on the kurds?

How about 100,000 iraqi babies that died because of u.s sanctions didn't your caring and loving leaders in the shape of madaline albright say "it was a price worth paying"
The list is endless, your not educated enough to even know any of this, just stick to reading the sun news paper.

Nazism who is closer? the record speaks for it's self..

walid

31st August 2007, 05:38 PM

THE BEGINNING OF THE END OF THE BLACKS

The isolation of Tasmania's Black aborigines ended in 1642 with the arrival and intrusion of the first Europeans. Abel Jansen Tasman, the Dutch navigator after whom the island is named, anchored off the Tasmanian coast in early December, 1642. Tasman named the island Van Diemen's land, after Anthony Van Diemen--the governor-general of the Dutch East India Company. The island continued to be called Van Diemen's Land until 1855.

On March 5, 1772, a French expedition led by Nicholas Marion du Fresne landed on the island. Within a few hours his sailors had shot several Aborigines. On January 28, 1777, the British landed on the island. Following coastal New South Wales in Australia, Tasmania was established as a British convict settlement in 1803. These convicts had been harshly traumatized and were exceptionally brutal. In addition to soldiers, administrators, and missionaries, eventually more than 65,000 men and women convicts were settled in Tasmania. A glaringly inefficient penal system allowed such convicts to escape into the Tasmanian hinterland where they exercised the full measure of their blood-lust and brutality upon the island's Black occupants. According to social historian Clive Turnbull, the activities of these criminals would soon include the "shooting, bashing out brains, burning alive, and slaughter of Aborigines for dogs' meat."

shame on you!!!

http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/tasmania.html

MosDef

31st August 2007, 05:41 PM

Also it should be noted that the Nazi & Zionist collaboration was a prime factor in the establishment of the apartheid state.

mika

31st August 2007, 06:38 PM

All right guys,

We see that you then actually have the same views as Hitler had 55 years ago, you just do not like to admit it.

During the Nazis, the homosexuals were places in concentration camps so they were isolated from the society; I am interested in knowing what plans you have with them?

I guess we are also talking forced "hospital help" to "cure" these abnormal poor people from their desire so do not harm this fantastic society where Allah and sharia rules.

So when we find out that our children have homo sexual tendencies, we take them to this great Islamic hospital.....no wait....we take them to one of those GREAT Quran schools where they will be brain washed with the word of the quran, that will cure them from this terrible desire of homo sexuality.....and when they come back, they will be “normal”

Come on guys, do you really believe in that..........?

Like I asked Abu Zubair (I never got a clear answer), what do want to do with the homosexuals in your ideal Islamic society?

BR
Mika

Abuz Zubair

31st August 2007, 06:42 PM

I don't think someone who fancies his mother deserves a response, mika.

mika

31st August 2007, 07:06 PM

Well if you fancy your mother Abuz Zubair, as long you and you mother are adult people, I do have a problem to that, I do not have the same relation to my mother as you seems to have, but we are all different, are'nt we Abuz Zubair?

In other words even that you fancy your mother Abuz Zubair, I still think that you deserve a responds.;)

But back to the subject, what shall we do with the homosexuales, I just came up with a few idears, now it is your turn.

BR
Mika

Abuz Zubair

31st August 2007, 07:47 PM

We have dealt with it over and over.

Now is the time to deal with your infatuation with incest. Admit it, you find nothing wrong with it at all.

I am dead against homosexuality, so the idea of incest wouldn't come to me in my worst nightmares. You are the one who finds nothing wrong with it, and only you are expected to dream of it day and night.

mika

31st August 2007, 08:21 PM

The reason we still discuss homosexuality is that this issue expose, more than ever, the intolerance of Islam, and it's extremely hostile attitude to views that are not according to a more than thousand year old book.

Abuz Zubair, please explain how you can bring up a disgusting and criminal behaviour like incest, in connection with homosexuality, how did you make the connection?

Abuz Zubair, what shall we do with homosexuals, as I said, I came with some idears, you haven’t come up with any ideas yet?

BR
Mika

Umm Ahmed

31st August 2007, 08:41 PM

How many people are closet gays in western society ? think Mika why do they have to keep quiet.

Abuz Zubair

31st August 2007, 09:03 PM

Abuz Zubair, please explain how you can bring up a disgusting and criminal behaviour like incest, in connection with homosexuality, how did you make the connection?

Oh, incest is now a disgusting and a crime, eh? What brought about this change of mind, mika?

Abuz Zubair, what shall we do with homosexuals, as I said, I came with some idears, you haven’t come up with any ideas yet?

Well, you can do with the homos what you do with ppl who commit incest, as starters :)

Adem Al-Albani

1st September 2007, 12:21 AM

asSalaamu'alaykum

I heard the Yahood do Incest a lot. May Allah curse them ever more.

As for the Homo's, I'll help find the cliff. lol Or in N.Y. the roof top. lol

hkrespect

1st September 2007, 03:28 AM

wa alaikum asalam wr wb

i know the yahud are allowed to marry the nieces.

ws

mika

1st September 2007, 09:34 AM

AT LAST....

Abuz Zubair have given us as solution on what to do with the homosexuals:
Well, you can do with the homos what you do with ppl who commit incest, as starters

People that commit incest (adult people that take sexual advantage of children) are imprisoned for many years in most countries, and good for that.
According to Abuz Zubair, homosexuals shall also be imprisoned for many years, is that correct Abuz Zubair?

My question to is then again:
When your son or daughter comes to you and tell you that they are homosexual, and you cannot "convince" them to become "normal" will you then go to the divine religious police, to turn in your own children in for many years of jail?

Abuz Zubair, do you sympathize with Hitler’s Nazi regimes treatment of homosexuals?

Oh, incest is now a disgusting and a crime, eh? What brought about this change of mind, mika?
What makes you think that I ever sympathized with incest Abuz Zubair, please show us where I sympathized with incest (adult people that taking sexual advantage of children)?

Abuz Zubair you do reliaze that you yourself worship an adult profet that married a 9 year old girl...............:eek:
Is it OK for adult men to marrie 9 year old girls...?, I certainly don't think so, what do you think Abuz Zubair ?

BR
Mika

abu hafs

1st September 2007, 10:13 AM

incest is much more than adult people taking sexual advantage of children...it is also a 21 year old son having intimate relation with his 39 year old mother .....u have no problems with it ....just admit it rather than twisting the meaning to suit your sick ideology.

My grandma got married around 12 ...what exactly is wrong with that ...her parents nor the society found nothing wrong with it ....and then some brainwashed secularist who change their morals everyday comes and tell me you are doing wrong because its X, Y and Z , tomorrow you will do the same thing because your laws and morals have no permanenance , hence they are useless to be judged against

I CHALLENGE you to logically refute the video that is posted below ( from 1:00)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqH7NNTvhqU

walid

1st September 2007, 10:37 AM

mika is probably gay, thus he doesn't like muslims..note he only ever discusses one thing only, he never answers any questions either..these are the characteristics of a person who is a Sun news paper reader and gets his kicks out of getting pissed in his local pub..why waste ones time even debating with someone who has an i.q of 10 and is pub educated!!
My discussion whith this pagal is kalash.

Magoo

1st September 2007, 10:44 AM

mika maybe a lot of things but first and foremost he is a waste of time

mika

1st September 2007, 04:43 PM

Hello,

We are still waiting for reply from Abuz Zubair......

To you abu hafs and your repeating confession:
My grandma got married around 12 ...what exactly is wrong with that ...her parents nor the society found nothing wrong with it...

You defend incest, so simple is that.......because your grandpa liked VERY young girls!
You know what abu hafs, thats disgusting, even to many fundamentalist in this forum.
Let me tell you why its wrong.......because your grandma didn’t have a choice, she was forced to merry a old man even before she was a teenager.....that’s sick, do not defend that!

Abuz Zubair, do you think that abu hafs grandpa was right to marry a 12 year old girl?

You guys are really getting into some serious problems here....I am really looking forward how you will defend this

BR
Mika

ibn 'abd al-jabbaar

2nd September 2007, 12:21 AM

as-salaamu 'alaikum

mika is probably gay, thus he doesn't like muslims..note he only ever discusses one thing only, he never answers any questions either..these are the characteristics of a person who is a Sun news paper reader and gets his kicks out of getting pissed in his local pub..why waste ones time even debating with someone who has an i.q of 10 and is pub educated!!
My discussion whith this pagal is kalash.

he also appears to have further regressed in his mental capacity, now he doesn't even know what incest means! :)

abu hafs

2nd September 2007, 05:57 AM

More emotional garbage and no proper arguments except
"it goes against what i think is moral, though what i think is moral changes every other day"
Girls become women at puberty and thats when they are married .

I challenge you again to LOGICALLY

I CHALLENGE you to logically refute the video that is posted below ( from 1:00)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqH7NNTvhqU

abu hafs

2nd September 2007, 05:59 AM

Intresting points from Converts on Tawheed

Murad Hofman (http://www.salam.co.uk/themeofthemonth/june02_index.php?l=22)

Quote:
He found the answer to this question in his third crucial experience when he came across the following verse of the Qur’an: “… no bearer of burdens shall bear the burdens of another.” (Qur’an 53:38). This verse opened up his eyes and provided the answer to his dilemma. Clearly and unambiguously for him, it rejected the ideas of the burden of "original sin” and the expectation of “intercession” by the saints. “A Muslim lives in a world without clergy and without religious hierarchy; when he prays he does not pray via Jesus, Mary, or other interceding saints, but directly to God – as a fully emancipated believer – and this is a religion free of mysteries.” According to Hofmann, “A Muslim is the emancipated believer par excellence".

Lyentter Wehner (http://www.gawaher.com/index.php?showtopic=15157)

Quote:

After months of reading, talking with people, and a lot of soul searching, there was one event that I consider to be the determining factor in my becoming Muslim. I was standing in my son’s room trying to pray. I had a book on Islam opened to the “how to pray” section. I was standing there in conflict with myself. I was not used to praying directly to God. All of my life I was taught to pray to Jesus, who would then tell God my prayer (or something like that). I was so scared that I was doing something wrong. I didn’t want Jesus mad at me. At that moment, it hit me like a tidal wave. Did I really think that God would be upset at me for wanting to get closer to Him? Did I really believe that Jesus would be upset with me for trying to get closer to God? Isn’t that what he wants me to do? God knows my intent. To this day, I believe it was God talking to me-that is how powerful the feeling and voice inside my head was. What did I have to fear?? How could I NOT convert to Islam? At that moment, I started crying and crying. It was what I needed to hear. I knew at that time that I had to convert to Islam. It felt right and nothing else mattered.

Umm Ahmed

2nd September 2007, 07:59 AM

Mika obviously knows nothing about girls, and when they are ready to marry.

Please go and read the statistics on under 16 pregnancies.
There was a girl in the midlands who was pregnant at nine http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/page.cfm?objectid=12398123&method=full&siteid=50002
If someone is able to have a baby at nine then they are able to have sexual feelings towards the opposite sex. Marriage is the way for her isn't it, or perhaps you would rather she has relations with anyone she fancies or should she be locked up mika because she is sick?

mika

2nd September 2007, 10:39 AM

Hi Umm Ahmed,

If a nine year girl becomes pregnant, she needs help, a lot of help, most of all from her family.

16 year pregnancies are very unfortunate, and should be prevented in any way, and my understanding is that most of the fathers in these cases are not very much older than the girl they make pregnant.

Now the problem is when it becomes an accepted norm by certain cultures (for example within Islam) to let extremely young girls (age 9-15) to be married, especially to much older men, that is wrong, no it is more than wrong, it is disquieting!

Why isit wrong, because you muslim parents steal those young girls youth, without ever asking them what they want, and show them what other alternative there is.

Again, a bright example is your own beautiful profet Muhammad, he was about 52, when he married the young 9 year old girl.................niiiiiiice man...:eek:

Umm Ahmed, would you marry away your 9 year old daughter to a 52 year old man?, you properly would, since your divine prophet did it, so you have to accept it is acceptable, don't you?

To abu hafs:
You can come up with the whole Quran, and try to justify your grandpa's fascination of 12 year old young girls, the basic fact is simply that he liked very young girls.
I think that manny older men like very young girls, but it seems that especially muslin men have found a very convenient way to justify their desire.
They simply claim that since it was written into the Quran that it is OK (it was properly originally written by older muslin men that also liked very young girls), all muslin men are allowed to take extremely young girls as wife’s.

Do you start to see that something went completely off the track here?

A 53 year old prophet, and a 9 year old girl......:eek:

BR
Mika

abu hafs

2nd September 2007, 10:51 AM

More emotional garbage with lots of nonsense , Forced marriages in Islam are null and void .

it is disquieting!

I am sure you are extremely comfortable with a 21 year old son and his 39 year old mom having intimate relationships out of their own free will .

I CHALLENGE you to logically refute the video that is posted below ( from 1:00)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqH7NNTvhqU

abu hafs

2nd September 2007, 11:01 AM

Your "wrongs" and "rights" are based purely on your emotions , who do you expect us to follow your intellect and emotions which can change its stance tomorrrow ?

Umm Ahmed

2nd September 2007, 11:32 AM

Hi Umm Ahmed,

If a nine year girl becomes pregnant, she needs help, a lot of help, most of all from her family.

16 year pregnancies are very unfortunate, and should be prevented in any way, and my understanding is that most of the fathers in these cases are not very much older than the girl they make pregnant.

Now the problem is when it becomes an accepted norm by certain cultures (for example within Islam) to let extremely young girls (age 9-15) to be married, especially to much older men, that is wrong, no it is more than wrong, it is disquieting!

Why isit wrong, because you muslim parents steal those young girls youth, without ever asking them what they want, and show them what other alternative there is.

Again, a bright example is your own beautiful profet Muhammad, he was about 52, when he married the young 9 year old girl.................niiiiiiice man...:eek:

Umm Ahmed, would you marry away your 9 year old daughter to a 52 year old man?, you properly would, since your divine prophet did it, so you have to accept it is acceptable, don't you?

BR
Mika

For your information Islaam does not force a woman to marry anyone , so lets make that very clear to you.

There is no one like the Phrophet the men can only try to be like them , he was like a gentle breeze with his wifes , the match was a good match between the phrophet and Aisha , through her we learned so much about our Phrophets life , she also taught others she was a scholar , she memorised and recorded hundreds of hadiths for our benefit. So there was a great wisdom behind this marriage.

You have been allready told that it was the norm for the society , so get over it.

As for my children that situation has not risen , like I said there is no one like the Phrophet .

mika

2nd September 2007, 05:35 PM

Hello again,

Here we go again:
For your information Islaam does not force a woman to marry anyone , so lets make that very clear to you.
So if a muslim women do not want to get married, that is OK, and by the way, if she falls in love with a none muslim, she is outcasted or killed, right?

There is no one like the Phrophet the men can only try to be like them , he was like a gentle breeze with his wife’s , the match was a good match between the phrophet and Aisha....
Umm Ahmed, you and many other muslims simply need to believe in this glorified dream to justify Muhammeds relation to a 9 year girl..
If Muslim men find it attractive to follow Muhammed to justify their desire for VERY young girls, they got a SERIOUS problem, let me tell you that.

Now Umm Ahmed, would you, under any circumstances, merry away your 9 year daughter, to a 52 year man?

To abu hafs in responds to:
Your "wrongs" and "rights" are based purely on your emotions, who do you expect us to follow your intellect and emotions which can change its stance tomorrrow ?
I just advocate for letting young muslim girls choosing their own future, instead of letting their parents and religion decide who they have to merry.

abu hafs, let me ask you a question, would you under any circumstance like to merry a 12 year girl?

I really hope that a lot of young muslim women reads this thread, and begins to consider what this Islam is all about...

BR
Mika

Umm Ahmed

2nd September 2007, 06:01 PM

So if a muslim women do not want to get married, that is OK, and by the way, if she falls in love with a none muslim, she is outcasted or killed, right?
Wrong she remains a muslim and will not be outcast from anywhere.

Umm Ahmed, you and many other muslims simply need to believe in this glorified dream to justify Muhammeds relation to a 9 year girl..
If Muslim men find it attractive to follow Muhammed to justify their desire for VERY young girls, they got a SERIOUS problem, let me tell you that.

No you have a problem, a woman is a woman from puberty to the grave.

Now Umm Ahmed, would you, under any circumstances, merry away your 9 year daughter, to a 52 year man?
If my daughter has reached puberty and she wants to be married , and he is a good person then there wont be any objection will there.

Now back to homosexuals, lets see what you have to say about whats happening to larry Craig in America.
I want your views on what America is saying and why he changed his story .

mika

2nd September 2007, 07:01 PM

Umm Ahmed,

My responds to
Wrong she remains a muslim and will not be outcast from anywhere. to:
Umm Ahmed I am very happy to hear that you agree with me that a muslim girl shall be able to merry muslim AS WELL as none muslim men without any kind of negative consequence. Here we fully agree, adult people shall be able to merry who they want, also across different religions.

No you have a problem; a woman is a woman from puberty to the grave.
Hmmm and...?

If my daughter has reached puberty and she wants to be married, and he is a good person then there wont be any objection will there.
Umm Ahmed, here we got the suspicious part, are you saying that if your 9 year old daughter comes to you and tells you that she want to merry a 52 year old man, you will have no objection.......................?
Umm Ahmed, do you really know what you are saying......you actually believe that a 9 year old child have the mental capability to understand the consequence of her decision, in such a serious matter......come on Umm Ahmed, letting your own daughter merry a 52 old man, don't you feel any responsibility for your children?

With regards to larry Craig in America I have simply not followed this case, what is this about?

BR
Mika

Umm Ahmed

2nd September 2007, 08:01 PM

Umm Ahmed,

My responds to

Umm Ahmed I am very happy to hear that you agree with me that a muslim girl shall be able to merry muslim AS WELL as none muslim men without any kind of negative consequence. Here we fully agree, adult people shall be able to merry who they want, also across different religions.

Hmmm and...?

Umm Ahmed, here we got the suspicious part, are you saying that if your 9 year old daughter comes to you and tells you that she want to merry a 52 year old man, you will have no objection.......................?
Umm Ahmed, do you really know what you are saying......you actually believe that a 9 year old child have the mental capability to understand the consequence of her decision, in such a serious matter......come on Umm Ahmed, letting your own daughter merry a 52 old man, don't you feel any responsibility for your children?

With regards to larry Craig in America I have simply not followed this case, what is this about?

BR
Mika

Cheap shots and snotty remarks to me regarding my children don't sit well with me , and its a good job your behind a pc , because you could never say what your saying to my face .
Type larry craig in google its all over the news.

I also disagree with what your saying regarding anyone marrying someone else .
Lets look at the catholic church, if a non catholic marries a catholic then its forbidden for them to be married in the no marriage chapel , the non catholic has to sign and swear that the children will go to a catholic school and that the children will be raised as catholics, so stop this hypocrisy and go spew your stuff on the christian forums

If a muslim women who is fully practicing, ie she prays fasts and spends time seeking Allaah's pleasure is married to a muslim man who does not practice , her life is a constant struggle , with children , traveling, how she lives her whole life . So imagine what it would be like married to a non muslim .
Stop being so self centered.

Hmmm and...?
What's that ? thats something my 12 year old would say.

umm emman

2nd September 2007, 09:09 PM

these people are a flippin disgrace... mika look at ur own corrupt society go fix that..

now u come on here only on the basis of thinkin u can wind up people.. but really ur a joke 2 society it self..

Wreatched are some of the children of adam a.s : faith is sealed, causes are hidden, works are preserved, insects are after him, choking kills him, and sweat makes him stink.

mika

4th September 2007, 11:03 AM

Hello Umm Ahmed

Of course I would have no problems in discussing there issues face to face with you, the matter we discuss now are very important, and I am pretty sure that modern muslim young people will challenge their own muslim identity, with such discussions.
Remember Umm Ahmed asking questions and challenging excisting ideas in most cases brings positive progress.

You really did not answer my question:
Umm Ahmed, here we got the suspicious part, are you saying that if your 9 year old daughter comes to you and tells you that she want to merry a 52 year old man, you will have no objection.......................?
Umm Ahmed, do you really know what you are saying......you actually believe that a 9 year old child have the mental capability to understand the consequence of her decision, in such a serious matter......come on Umm Ahmed, letting your own daughter merry a 52 old man, don't you feel any responsibility for your children?

With regards to the catholic church, and its rules about mixed marriages, they are just as crazy islamic rules.
In the meantime, it is only within Islam that we regulary hear about out casting and killing of especially young women that marries none muslims or in other ways "brakes" peacefull Allah's devine regulations.
In other words, muslims seems to punish their own much harder than other religions, so in that regard Islam are performing pretty well.

If a muslim women who is fully practicing, ie she prays fasts and spends time seeking Allaah's pleasure is married to a muslim man who does not practice, her life is a constant struggle, with children , travelling, how she lives her whole life . So imagine what it would be like married to a non muslim .
Stop being so self centered.
You are proberly right, and therefore muslim women should use much less time on Allah, and instead enjoy life, decide themselves who they wants to merry, and raise the children neutral. When the children grow up, they can decide their religion them self!
How does that sound Umm Ahmed?

With regards to Larry Craig seems to have come "out of the closet as gay", and then what?

Who is a disgrace umm emman, and why?

BR
Mika

Umm Ahmed

4th September 2007, 12:02 PM

Do you think there is no God then Mika ?

What you term as progress I term as backward thinking.

Nothing you say sounds sane Mika , as a non muslim and now as a muslim I never came across someone who talks utter nonsense.

Raising a child neutral( as you called it ) means raising them in Islaam . Ask a 3 year old where God is and they will say "up" this is Islaam .

mika

6th September 2007, 06:36 PM

Hello all,

Sorry for my late responds,

Here is my responds to Umm Ahmed on:
Do you think there is no God then Mika ?
Well, I don't know Umm Ahmed, but if there is, I think that he/she needs to improve significantly, just see what your god Allah, creates of trouble all over the world.

And to the comment:
Raising a child neutral( as you called it ) means raising them in Islaam.
Raising a child natural means that you learn you kids to accept other peoples belief, and teach them the importance of personal freedom with respect for other people. And most important Umm Ahmed, do not brain wash your children with a certain religion from they are born, let them decide their religion(if any) when they are old enough to make their own choice.

Ask a 3 year old where God is and they will say "up" this is Islaam
A 3 year old kid knows NOTHING about where God is, unless the 3 year old kid have heard or been told by its surroundings Umm Ahmed, sorry but that is a realty.

Umm Ahmed, I ask you again to comment your statement below since this is really serious:
Umm Ahmed, here we got the suspicious part, are you saying that if your 9 year old daughter comes to you and tells you that she want to merry a 52 year old man, you will have no objection.......................?
Umm Ahmed, do you really know what you are saying......you actually believe that a 9 year old child have the mental capability to understand the consequence of her decision, in such a serious matter......come on Umm Ahmed, letting your own daughter merry a 52 old man, don't you feel any responsibility for your children?

BR
Mika

abu hafs

6th September 2007, 07:06 PM

The age solely depends on the society in which the child grows up .....there was time when 15 year old MEN fought in wars , worked day and night to take care of the families and so on and so forth... you have absolutely no RATIONAL arguments except that you despise it for some reason that has only to do with your up bringing and your morals which "evolves" as the days go by .

abu hafs

6th September 2007, 07:11 PM

abu hafs, let me ask you a question, would you under any circumstance like to merry a 12 year girl?

No I wouldn't , thats simply because girls nor boys are mature enough these days to marry that early nor are they taught to be responsible wives and husbands by they are 12, thats how the society is today, that may change in the future...if that was norm in the society then what exactly is the problem ?

Umm Ahmed

6th September 2007, 07:44 PM

Umm Ahmed, here we got the suspicious part, are you saying that if your 9 year old daughter comes to you and tells you that she want to merry a 52 year old man, you will have no objection.......................?
Umm Ahmed, do you really know what you are saying......you actually believe that a 9 year old child have the mental capability to understand the consequence of her decision, in such a serious matter......come on Umm Ahmed, letting your own daughter merry a 52 old man, don't you feel any responsibility for your children?

I have more reposibility towards my children than you will ever be able to have towards yours . I would not marry my daughter to a 52 year old man , unless there was someone banging on my door that is outstanding .

No Mika your wrong about what a small child knows , go join a nursery and learn about children, you know nothing about Islaam except what your force fed from the media and your own weird logic that adds 2 plus 2 then comes up with 5 .
Your upbringing has been dreadful, that you would speak of the one who made you and who in his mercy allows you to breathe and eat in such belittling terms.
This life is so short, I wonder how you sleep at night.

With regards to Larry Craig seems to have come "out of the closet as gay", and then what?

Why is there even a need for the word closet Mika ? isn't it because its not the norm in society to be gay or for others to accept it , so this prooves your rationale is not normal and is not a norm of society.

mika

7th September 2007, 06:59 AM

Hi again,

First some feedback to abu hafs on his defends of old men marrying 9-12 years girls.
abu hafs wrote:
The age solely depends on the society in which the child grows up .....there was time when 15 year old MEN fought in wars , worked day and night to take care of the families and so on and so forth... you have absolutely no RATIONAL arguments except that you despise it for some reason that has only to do with your up bringing and your morals which "evolves" as the days go by .te:
Yes you are right that there were times when 15 year old KIDS fought in wars, and there still is, but it still does not justify this practise.

Your argument is similar to that since we used whipping as capital punishment in the middle age (some muslim countries still use this practice) we must not criticize whipping, because it was other norms back then. That’s rubish abu hafs, whiping was, is and will always be a cruel and uncivilized method of punishment, just a old men marrying young girls was, is and will always be perverse!

I fully understand the you and other muslims NEEDS to find some tricky way to justify that your own profet Muhammed liked young girls, because you are not allowed to criticize him, but the fact is that he married a 9 year young girl, and that should in fact make a lot of muslims to reconsider in Allah were so cool, as he is claimed to be!

To Umm Ahmed:
have more responsibility towards my children than you will ever be able to have towards yours .
Do you feel as responsible mother, if you at the same time tell us that you are willing to outcast and cut all contact to your children, if they come to you and tell you that they are homosexual, or if they want to convert to another religion...?
Umm Ahmed, that’s not responsibility, that’s called religious fanaticism.

No Mika your wrong about what a small child knows, go join a nursery and learn about children
What exactly are you saying here...would a nursery school tell me that a 3 year kid, straight out of nothing, would know about god?

Your upbringing has been dreadful, that you would speak of the one who made you and who in his mercy allows you to breathe and eat in such belittling terms.
This life is so short, I wonder how you sleep at night.
Don't worry Umm Ahmed, my upbringing has been great, and I got great parents that would NEVER threaten me with out casting if I for example wanted to be muslin, budist, ect..
And by the way, I sleep absolutely great in the night, since I know that do not need to threat anybody in my family or among my friends.

BR
Mika

Umm Ahmed

7th September 2007, 07:33 AM

Nah Mika your narrow minded when it suits you, so it shows your not as tolerant as you think you are . You follow your own whims and desires which will constantly change and grow as the wind blows or what TV programme you happened to watch that day , where we follow divine laws that are made by our creator and so we know they suit us best .

Why is there even a need for the word closet Mika ? isn't it because its not the norm in society to be gay or for others to accept it , so this proves your rationale is not normal and is not a norm of society.
you haven't answered the above .

When someone leaves Islaam what would they be going to mika ? And I would not say NEVER with regards to your parents attitude changing towards you if you changed your religion, strange how non muslim parents prefer their children to be drunk and fornicating then judge us on how we are with our children.

mika

7th September 2007, 11:07 AM

Hello,

Nah Mika your narrow minded when it suits you, so it shows your not as tolerant as you think you are .
Why am I narrow minded, and where is my lack of tolerance?

Your divine laws are just a set of rules that some people many years were convenient, so they could control other people.

With regards to "closet gay" it means that a person is gay, but have not told anybody yes because he/she are afraid of how the surroundings will react.
This is properly a extremely painful situation, and unfortunately, in some families in the west, homosexuality is still a tabu, even homosexuality is widely accepted in the west as just another way of life.

There is no doubt that especially in the muslin world, where you hunt down, imprison and kill homosexuals justifyed by your "divine" Allah's rules, are millions of "closet gay people" that really suffer because they know that you and Abu Zaubair and the rest of the muslim culture wants to get rid of them!

This is a bright example on why Islam is such a suppressive idelogy Umm Ahmed.

BR
Mika

Umm Ahmed

7th September 2007, 11:16 AM

This is properly a extremely painful situation, and unfortunately, in some families in the west, homosexuality is still a tabu, even homosexuality is widely accepted in the west as just another way of life.

Are you sure its accepted ? I think you will find thats its the opposite.

Your opinion means nothing Mika , because its based on nothing.
So in your eyes there has to be no control ? Isn't aids and other diseases from people who have no control ?
There are more things permissible to us than are forbidden mika, and the things that are forbidden are in place for a good reason.

mika

7th September 2007, 01:20 PM

Hi again,

Umm Ahmed wrote:
Are you sure its accepted? I think you will find thats its the opposite.
Yes I am sure that it is widely accepted, but there will always be minor groups that do not accept it.
In most western countries we have laws against discrimination of homosexuals, compared to the muslim world, where you want to hunt them down, and lock them up, like in nazi-germany during Hitler.

Your opinion means nothing Mika , because its based on nothing.
My opinion means just as much as yours Umm Ahmed, you just do not like my opinion, and that is something completely different.
By the way, we got more than 2300 views in this thread, hopefully a lot of young muslims, that will start to consider if this hole idea with Islam and Allah, actually is the way to go.

So in your eyes there has to be no control ? Isn't aids and other diseases from people who have no control ?
Now that is really naive Umm Ahmed, if you think that if we just got rid of all homosexuals, we would get rid of aids.
You got your huge share of AIDS victims in the muslim world, believe me, you just do not want to talk about is, so even that, Allah could not handle.

There are more things permissible to us than are forbidden mika, and the things that are forbidden are in place for a good reason.
So that excuse brings you peace in mind, while you hunt down homosexuals and kick them to prison, so you end up with a "clean" society....:eek:
You know what Umm Ahmed, you, and your fellow muslims ideal world reminds me more and more of a Nazi Germany back in the 40'ties, can you see the connection?

BR
Mika

Umm Ahmed

7th September 2007, 05:34 PM

Yes I am sure that it is widely accepted, but there will always be minor groups that do not accept it.[quote]
I think you have it the wrong way around , its only a few who accept homosexuality as a way of life. If the majority accepted it then there would be no such thing as "closet gays"
[quote]In most western countries we have laws against discrimination of homosexuals, compared to the muslim world, where you want to hunt them down, and lock them up, like in nazi-germany during Hitler.
Deluded you are now Mika Homosexuals are not hunted down if you have the proof of that then by all means bring it . There are homosexuals walking about here , its not having the tendency to be like that but its the actual act , its sodomy thats illegal and sinful.

My opinion means just as much as yours Umm Ahmed, you just do not like my opinion, and that is something completely different.
Your opinion is based on what then Mika ? please enlighten us show us why I would like any of your opinions
By the way, we got more than 2300 views in this thread, hopefully a lot of young muslims, that will start to consider if this hole idea with Islam and Allah, actually is the way to go.

Most of those views are you keep coming back over and over to check whats going on , it's not like your busy on any other threads here.
When you get muslims pming you saying "yeah mika we are with you" then talk.

Now that is really naive Umm Ahmed, if you think that if we just got rid of all homosexuals, we would get rid of aids.

read again what I wrote , no where did I mention that we would get rid of aids if there was no homosexuals , and for your information Aids is now spread ing mainly through unprotected sex among prostitutes then bringing the disease home, like in some countries in Africa and through the use of dirty needles when using drugs.
If its in Muslim countries its there because they are not adhering to the teachings of Islaam, (those that are infected with bad blood or innocent do not fall in the catagory I am referring to ) also aids is not hidden in the muslim countries as WHO know the statistics as the medicine comes from the west. Which brings me to my original point that these things happen when people have no control , which is what you advocate alongside be free live today and die tomorrow mentality.

So that excuse brings you peace in mind, while you hunt down homosexuals and kick them to prison, so you end up with a "clean" society....
I already answered that above.
You know what Umm Ahmed, you, and your fellow muslims ideal world reminds me more and more of a Nazi Germany back in the 40'ties, can you see the connection?
No it does not, Islaam is not racist ( please read the story of malcom X) Islaam does not advocate the killing of the innocents . Islaam does not allow torture and experiments on human beings. We do not burn our dead we respect the sanctity of our neighbours homes. We do not worship any human being .
And we most certainly do not march around with a stupid walk and hand salutes saying "heil Hitler"
Are you and ex Jew ? you seem a bit preoccupied with Hitler.

mika

8th September 2007, 01:26 AM

Hello again Umm Ahmed,

Now it really becomes technically, does'nt it:
Deluded you are now Mika Homosexuals are not hunted down if you have the proof of that then by all means bring it . There are homosexuals walking about here , its not having the tendency to be like that but its the actual act , its sodomy that’s illegal and sinful.
Lets what you are saying here...if a person, let's for example say your own son, came to you and said: Mom, I am homosexual, then you would say, well my son, that is VERY, VERY, VERY bad, you will be punished by Allah.
After that you had to find out if he had been sexually related to another man, and if he had not, you would not kick him to jail, is that correct?
On the other hand, if you could prove that your own son have had a sexual relation to another man, you would not hesitate to turn your own son in for many years prison, is that correct?

Your opinion is based on what then Mika ? please enlighten us show us why I would like any of your opinions
I do not ask you to like my opinions Umm Ahmed, you respond to my input on this forum, and that is enough.

Most of those views are you keep coming back over and over to check what’s going on
Would it be a problem for you if the 2300 views were actually young muslims that were starting to be a bit critical to Islam by following this tread?;)

Do you see AIDS ad Allahs punishment to the "bad non-muslims" Umm Ahmed?

Islaam does not advocate the killing of the innocents
What is your definition of innocents?..........

No I am not jew, it's just that the more I see how you hardcore muslims argument to justify your dreams for the perfect Islamic society, Nazism pops up in my mind again and again......properly because Islam are a dominator Ideology like Nazism.

BR
Mika

IbnShaykh

8th September 2007, 02:38 AM

Bismillah

Would it be a problem for you if the 2300 views were actually young muslims that were starting to be a bit critical to Islam by following this tread?

Dream on, and also I think it should bother you that the opposite will happen. Many young muslims will see the pathetic nature of your argument. Your hatred of our religion is quite manifest and your fooling yourself if you think muslims give up 1400 years of religous heritage over someone like you clevering, and making smarmy comments.

So please carry on, your demonstrating for us the superiority of islaam and I thank Allaah I am muslim when you make comment. :)

mika

8th September 2007, 08:56 AM

More than 2300 views, that is a lot, this is even more than the thread about " the devil himself" Salmam Rushdie....:)

By the way IbnShaykh, don't worry I will carry on, maybe it is time now to break 1400 years tyranny, what do you think?

By the way IbnShaykh, what do you think we shall do with homosexuals, or muslims that want to convert to another religion?

BR
Mika

Umm Ahmed

8th September 2007, 08:59 AM

That was technical? :roll:

Lets what you are saying here...if a person, let's for example say your own son, came to you and said: Mom, I am homosexual, then you would say, well my son, that is VERY, VERY, VERY bad, you will be punished by Allah.
After that you had to find out if he had been sexually related to another man, and if he had not, you would not kick him to jail, is that correct?
On the other hand, if you could prove that your own son have had a sexual relation to another man, you would not hesitate to turn your own son in for many years prison, is that correct?

If we are living in a country that applies the Sharia then this is what will happen, maybe some time in jail will make someone reflect over his deeds. I find it odd that you advocate sodomy,sperm is not supposed to go up the back passage don't you know that ? that should be simple enough to grasp. what’s to happen to the human race if people like you were listened to?
Do you have no principles at all?

Would it be a problem for you if the 2300 views were actually young muslims that were starting to be a bit critical to Islam by following this tread?
Why are you repeating this ? hmm maybe you are seeking attention .
You conveniently missed out the second part of this quote where I said “when the muslims on this forum start pming you to agree with what your saying, then you can speak”

Do you see AIDS ad Allahs punishment to the "bad non-muslims" Umm Ahmed?

This comment shows how you are twisted in the mind. As you mentioned earlier Aids is also within the Muslim community as well, but the fact does remain that aids showed up within the homosexual community first, so there is a lesson that should be taken from that.
Illness in Islaam is looked on as a blessing too, an illness humbles one and brings them closer to God, its an expiator of sins, we also get rewards from visiting the sick. But we should also check ourselves when something bad happens to us, because those are wake up calls as well.

Are you homosexual or you know someone who is ?, are you and they being picked on by your peers and so have come here to rant and grumble.

No I am not jew, it's just that the more I see how you hardcore muslims argument to justify your dreams for the perfect Islamic society, Nazism pops up in my mind again and again......properly because Islam are a dominator Ideology like Nazism.
Oh really, again I ask you to bring the proofs that show Islaam is similar to Hitler’s Germany

What is your definition of innocents?..........

All people who don't stop Islaam being spread.
If you had bothered yourself to look through this forum you would have found a lot of threads talking about innocents.

mika

9th September 2007, 05:41 PM

Hi again,

This thread is now on more than 2400 views... I think it is great; hopefully the main part of the viewers starts to see how uncivilized Islam is to certain minority group of people, just because it is stated in an old book written 1400 years ago.

Lets continue the debate:

Umm Ahmed wrote:
If we are living in a country that applies the Sharia then this is what will happen, maybe some time in jail will make someone reflect over his deeds.
So at least we can conclude that the good mother Umm Ahmed are willing to turn in her own son for many years of prison, locked up and loosing his youth, if Umm Ahmed find proofs that he has been together with another man....
One thing is for sure Umm Ahmed(and all of you that think like Umm Ahmed...) you would never have the same relation to your son again, he would ALWAYS know that he could not trust his mother, and even worse....I don't know if I dare to say it, but maybe he would realize how narrow minded in intolerant Islamis, and then HE WOULD LEAVE ISLAM........
One thing is for sure Umm Ahmed, if he was homosexual when he came in, he will be homosexual when he comes out....welcome to the world of realities.

Then Umm Ahmed wrote...believe it or not....:
I find it odd that you advocate sodomy,sperm is not supposed to go up the back passage don't you know that ?
Umm Ahmed shall you or Allah, or for that sake Abus Zabair, decide how an adult man wants to use his sperm, unless he does not harm anybody........give me a brake.....so what do you suggest.....I mean how on earth do you want to control this.....?
Let me see...OK, you would call the police to take your sons lover in for a forced medical examination to see if there were traces of sperm inside him...
Umm Ahmed is this your dream paradise of a Sharia state...
P.S I do not especially advocate for homosexuality, I just defend a minority group that does not harm anybody.

what’s to happen to the human race if people like you were listened to?
What exactly would happen is that a lot of people could live a much easier life without being locked up in jail...so simple is that.

Do you have no principles at all?
Yes I do.

As you mentioned earlier Aids is also within the Muslim community as well, but the fact does remain that aids showed up within the homosexual community first, so there is a lesson that should be taken from that.
And what is that lesson?

Illness in Islaam is looked on as a blessing too, an illness humbles one and brings them closer to God, its an expiator of sins
So basically we should have bad conscious if we get cancer start to pray to Allah for forgiveness, come on.
A straight forward responds to Allah would be.....now you messed up again, why couldn’t you keep me free of cancer?

Are you homosexual or you know someone who is ?, are you and they being picked on by your peers and so have come here to rant and grumble.
No I am not homosexual. and I really don't care about other peoples sexual orientation as seems to be very important to you and your fellow muslims, basically this discussion is about freedom versus a narrow minded ideology called Islam, that wants to dictate peoples life from birth to death.

Umm Ahmed's definition of innocents:
All people who don't stop Islaam being spread.
That’s a good one.....so Allah have simply, by himself, decided that is somebody do not agree with himself, they are simply not innocent....
Hmm, now we are back with his profet Muhammed (52 year old) , and his 9 year old wife.....Sorry Umm Ahmed the word "innocents" and a 52 year man marrying a 9 year old girl, while he wants the hunt down homosexuals and kick them in jail....SIMPLY DO NOT SOUND VERY CONVINCING.......can you see it…….?

BR
Mika

Umm Ahmed

9th September 2007, 07:41 PM

This thread is now on more than 2400 views... I think it is great; hopefully the main part of the viewers starts to see how uncivilized Islam is to certain minority group of people, just because it is stated in an old book written 1400 years ago.

Poor deluded Mika thats not happening is it ? strange how so many people are embracing Islaam too.

First of all Mika as a homosexual you cant produce children . please ask any normal man what his sperm is for . I don't think he will reply to put up an other mans bottom to mix around with feces , its not normal is it Mika its abnormal! And its not what I think, its what the normal society thinks not just Muslims but everyone . I don't mix with Muslims alone

So at least we can conclude that the good mother Umm Ahmed are willing to turn in her own son for many years of prison, locked up and loosing his youth, if Umm Ahmed find proofs that he has been together with another man....
One thing is for sure Umm Ahmed(and all of you that think like Umm Ahmed...) you would never have the same relation to your son again, he would ALWAYS know that he could not trust his mother, and even worse....I don't know if I dare to say it, but maybe he would realize how narrow minded in intolerant Islamis, and then HE WOULD LEAVE ISLAM........
One thing is for sure Umm Ahmed, if he was homosexual when he came in, he will be homosexual when he comes out....welcome to the world of realities.

Muslims very rarely leave Islaam and those that have are not usually homosexual but muslim in name only , or in poverty and the christian missionaires were right there with food and a bible.
Giving in to sexual deviancy does not take you out of Islaam.

[/quote]Umm Ahmed shall you or Allah, or for that sake Abus Zabair, decide how an adult man wants to use his sperm, unless he does not harm anybody........give me a brake.....so what do you suggest.....I mean how on earth do you want to control this.....?
Let me see...OK, you would call the police to take your sons lover in for a forced medical examination to see if there were traces of sperm inside him...
Umm Ahmed is this your dream paradise of a Sharia state...
P.S I do not especially advocate for homosexuality, I just defend a minority group that does not harm anybody.

Dont women who have been raped get an internal ? In Islaam its a crime to act upon feelings towards the same gender , so its treated as such .
You are in a blanket of darkness with your own opinion leading the way. Sharia is the best way , anyone who lives under it will have a happy normal life .

There was a programme about a black rapper who became muslim, he was saying that even the non muslims were movng into the muslim neighbourhoods because they were living a life thats clean and has morals .

[quote]What exactly would happen is that a lot of people could live a much easier life without being locked up in jail...so simple is that.

Now thats really funny , society has to keep building bigger jails because of the growing crime rate and do you know the reason for that ? its because there is no punishment that fits the crime . If Islaam was practiced as it should be the crime rate would be low. And how can you say a lot ? You keep mentioning that homosexuals are a minority.

So basically we should have bad conscious if we get cancer start to pray to Allah for forgiveness, come on.
A straight forward responds to Allah would be.....now you messed up again, why couldn’t you keep me free of cancer?[quote]

Blasphemer I already explained about the lessons and blessings we take from illness , your comment is pitiful

[quote]Yes I do.

No you don't have principles as can be seen in your comments.

No I am not homosexual. and I really don't care about other peoples sexual orientation as seems to be very important to you and your fellow muslims, basically this discussion is about freedom versus a narrow minded ideology called Islam, that wants to dictate peoples life from birth to death.

No you do care about homosexuals and other deviant lifestyles like incest, you don't defend something that hard if its not close to your heart.

Islaam is a beautiful way of life , which is something you don't have and so we can only pity you , your opinions are from not having God in your life dark and evil and you take pleasure in insulting God and Muslims. Your oppressing our rights to follow our religion.
We are not the ones going around forums insulting Islaam ,doing this only affirms that your not quite right in the head.

That’s a good one.....so Allah have simply, by himself, decided that is somebody do not agree with himself, they are simply not innocent....
Hmm, now we are back with his profet Muhammed (52 year old) , and his 9 year old wife.....Sorry Umm Ahmed the word "innocents" and a 52 year man marrying a 9 year old girl, while he wants the hunt down homosexuals and kick them in jail....SIMPLY DO NOT SOUND VERY CONVINCING.......can you see it…….?

What would sound convincing to someone like you ? You mock your creator , you mock our phrophet, our religion and our laws and way of life , You want Homosexuality to be freely practiced like anal intercourse is perfectly alright ,and do you also advocate them adopting children as well ? You have no problem with incest amoung consenting adults *Clap Clap* well done Mika what a great human being you are , your mother must be kissing your head everyday because she raised such a wonderful son .

Your posts are devoid of substance now , go find attention in your own life instead of seeking it on here

mika

10th September 2007, 06:29 PM

Hi Again,

In 24 hours this thread has gone from 2400 views to 2500 views, GREAT, hopefully all you that read this thread can see that Islams view on for example homosexuals is so pathetic narrow minded, that you would think we were in the 1600’s century.

OK let’s continue:

Umm Ahmed writes to me:
Poor deluded Mika that’s not happening is it ? strange how so many people are embracing Islaam too.
Of course especially poor people like Islam, you promise them a lot of goodies such as free virgins in heaven after they die, and eternal life....the problem is just that those people then have to live a miserable dictated life according to the quran, and you will outcast or kill them, if they want to leave Islam again.

Umm Ahmed then write:
First of all Mika as a homosexual you cant produce children . please ask any normal man what his sperm is for .
Now I am a little worried here....does that mean that mankind are only allowed to have a sexual relation, if the purpose is to have children.....?
Are you not allowed to have a sexual relation just for pleasure?.....

Then Umm Ahmed write (I really didn’t belief my own eyes...)
I don't think he will reply to put up an other mans bottom to mix around with feces , its not normal is it Mika its abnormal!
BUT Umm Ahmed, that does not have anything to do with this discussion....
Yes...homosexuality IS abnormal....and so what....what we are discussing here is abnormal peoples, such as homosexuals, RIGHT to do what they want to do, if they just do not harm other people.
That right is NONE of mine, or yours or million of muslins, OR Allah's business, so simple is that.
So therefore accept if your son should turn up to be homosexual, DO NOT throw him to jail, because if you did that Umm Ahmed, you would loose your son forever..:(

Umm Ahmed wrote:
Muslims very rarely leave Islaam and those that have are not usually homosexual but muslim in name only , or in poverty and the christian missionaires were right there with food and a bible.
Ohh that was a really easy escape....."Those who leave Islam were not real muslims,,,"
So is my question, why then kill them or outcast them, if they were not real Islams from the beginning?

Giving in to sexual deviancy does not take you out of Islaam.

You are properly right, because if they try to get out of Islam and convert, you would throw them to jail, outcast them, or kill them.....according to your dark ideology of Islam.

Umm Ahmed then write: (and here it becomes really twisted..)
Dont women who have been raped get an internal ?
OF COURSE THEY DO.....because they were raped.....but a homosexual is NOT raped, it is a mutual free relation between two adult persons Umm Ahmed....

In Islaam its a crime to act upon feelings towards the same gender , so its treated as such .
Yes exactly, and that is why Islam is still a middle age ideology that only creates punishment and darkness, in other words, a real turnoff.

Sharia is the best way , anyone who lives under it will have a happy normal life .
Yes…, tell that to your son, after you have turned him into jail for many years, or the people that want to leave Islam, and then are killed by means of your divine Sharia laws.....:eek:

Blasphemer I already explained about the lessons and blessings we take from illness , your comment is pitiful
A typical responds from hardcore muslims when you criticize Muhammed or Allah, but Umm Ahmed, we simply need to open peoples eyes so the especially young muslims can see the hierocratic and domination ideology, Islam is.

Umm Ahmed then writes:
What would sound convincing to someone like you ? You mock your creator , you mock our phrophet, our religion and our laws and way of life , You want Homosexuality to be freely practiced like anal intercourse is perfectly alright ,and do you also advocate them adopting children as well ? You have no problem with incest amoung consenting adults *Clap Clap* well done Mika what a great human being you are
There is only one very simple thing to say here: Allah, Muhammed, Umm Ahmed, and millions of other muslims.........mind your own business, as long as no on is being hurt, why is this so difficult to understand??

your mother must be kissing your head everyday because she raised such a wonderful son
Believe me she does, and I guarantee you that she share my opinions..;)

Your posts are devoid of substance now, go find attention in your own life instead of seeking it on here
Have you run out of arguments Umm Ahmed?

BR
Mika

Umm Ahmed

10th September 2007, 07:48 PM

Of course especially poor people like Islam, you promise them a lot of goodies such as free virgins in heaven after they die, and eternal life....the problem is just that those people then have to live a miserable dictated life according to the quran, and you will outcast or kill them, if they want to leave Islam again.

Thats an insult to muslims everywhere , the callers to islaam call the people to worship one God ,please speak the truth when you write.
I dont think muslims have a miserable life , we have festivals we have marriages and we have a laugh.

Now I am a little worried here....does that mean that mankind are only allowed to have a sexual relation, if the purpose is to have children.....?
Are you not allowed to have a sexual relation just for pleasure?.....
emm I said sperm not sexual pleasure , one of the reasons we are encouraged to marry young is so that we dont fall into illegal relations due to desire. Your kinda losing track of whats being said to you Mika.

BUT Umm Ahmed, that does not have anything to do with this discussion....
Yes...homosexuality IS abnormal....and so what....what we are discussing here is abnormal peoples, such as homosexuals, RIGHT to do what they want to do, if they just do not harm other people.
That right is NONE of mine, or yours or million of muslins, OR Allah's business, so simple is that.
So therefore accept if your son should turn up to be homosexual, DO NOT throw him to jail, because if you did that Umm Ahmed, you would loose your son forever

Oh but it does have something to do with the discussion Mika , because my responses have always been in answer to what your saying , and you said that men are entitled to do what they want with their sperm and I am prooving to you that is not the case at all, and I am glad you agree that it is abnormal and so there has to be some kind of deterrent dont you think so ?

Ohh that was a really easy escape....."Those who leave Islam were not real muslims,,,"
So is my question, why then kill them or outcast them, if they were not real Islams from the beginning?

You have been told on this forum in other threads regarding apostacy, that first a person is given time to reconsider his choice , also in Islaam for your information someone who is ignorant is not killed . Now this problem that you have with apostates being killed , if someone has been told that he is an apostate and will be killed I would think he would jump at the chance dont you ? dying for a cause and all that.

OF COURSE THEY DO.....because they were raped.....but a homosexual is NOT raped, it is a mutual free relation between two adult persons Umm Ahmed....

But I already told you that homosexuality is a crime , we cant have total freedom or society will become doomed, freedom means no laws.

Yes exactly, and that is why Islam is still a middle age ideology that only creates punishment and darkness, in other words, a real turnoff
Oh dear a turn off is it , cant help if you want to be an unmoral person Mika. I have already said to you that the punishments are few in Islaam and we dont live in darkness , I see you living in darkness as you seem to have no rope to hold onto. Islaam has thousands of converts every year, despite people like yourself ranting on about how bad Islaam is .

Yes…, tell that to your son, after you have turned him into jail for many years, or the people that want to leave Islam, and then are killed by means of your divine Sharia laws.....

Tell that to my son ? emm you seem to have a problem with reality here. Sharia law is the best because its divine , if we lived by your laws Mika you would be bringing out a new book every year.

A typical responds from hardcore muslims when you criticize Muhammed or Allah, but Umm Ahmed, we simply need to open peoples eyes so the especially young muslims can see the hierocratic and domination ideology, Islam is.

Perhaps you dont know what a blasphemer is.

blas·phemed, blas·phem·ing, blas·phemes

1. To speak of (God or a sacred entity) in an irreverent, impious manner.
2. To revile; execrate.

To speak blasphemy.

There is only one very simple thing to say here: Allah, Muhammed, Umm Ahmed, and millions of other muslims.........mind your own business, as long as no on is being hurt, why is this so difficult to understand??

Part of being a muslim is to better the community on a whole wither living with muslims or non muslims . we enjoin the good and forbid the evil, God has said Homosexuality is evil and we are not to do it. You also can not judge on what is hurtful to others. How many families have been destroyed by this , men suddenly go off with an other man if thats to be ignored and allowed then it is hurtful to communities.

Have you run out of arguments Umm Ahmed?
No mika but you seem to be repeating the same thing over and over . For myself I think I wrote the words '' I already told you'' more than once which isn't a good sign for you.
I will say this though Mika , you have made me love islaam much more , I am so thankful that I am not in your place.

mika

11th September 2007, 07:59 PM

Hi again,

Ok Umm Ahmed, let me respond to your input to the forum:

You write:
Thats an insult to muslims everywhere , the callers to islaam call the people to worship one God ,please speak the truth when you write.
I dont think muslims have a miserable life , we have festivals we have marriages and we have a laugh.
You shall not insult peoples feeling unnecessary, but if the people in question (muslims) constantly demand special treatment in other cultures, "because we are muslims", the respect runs out Umm Ahmed, and therefore we got to talk straight.
Yes some of you will tell everybody that you got a good life (so say the Scientology people, the mormons, and a lot of other religious sects also), where you got festivals and marriges (sometimes forced marriages where the girl do not select her own man, and she can only marriage a muslim....but OK) but basically many muslims live a poor and mind-controlled life, where everybody watch everybody, to ensure that nobody brake the dark rules of Islam.

And here comes the more delicate part.. Umm Ahmed wrote:
emm I said sperm not sexual pleasure , one of the reasons we are en