Quran mentioned in Hadith: Created or Uncreated

[aMuslimForLife]

And in the hadith agreed upon (by Bukhârî and Muslim) on the authority of Ibn 'Umar as has preceded in (The Book of) Jihad, (the Prophet said): "Do not travel with the Qur'ân to the land of the enemy out of dislike for having the enemy reach it."

Do Hanbalis believe that Quran mentioned in this Hadith is created or uncreated???

[sunnih]

And in the hadith agreed upon (by Bukhârî and Muslim) on the authority of Ibn 'Umar as has preceded in (The Book of) Jihad, (the Prophet said): "Do not travel with the Qur'ân to the land of the enemy out of dislike for having the enemy reach it."

Do Hanbalis believe that Quran mentioned in this Hadith is created or uncreated???

Bukhari on the authority of Abu Huraira narrates that the messenger said: "The reciting of the Qur'an was made easy for David. He used to order that his riding animals be saddled, and would finish reciting the Qur'an before they were saddled. And he would never eat except from the earnings of his manual work."

Would you say that Qur'an was revealed to Dawud (as)?!

[Abuz Zubair]

And in the hadith agreed upon (by Bukhârî and Muslim) on the authority of Ibn 'Umar as has preceded in (The Book of) Jihad, (the Prophet said): "Do not travel with the Qur'ân to the land of the enemy out of dislike for having the enemy reach it."

Do Hanbalis believe that Quran mentioned in this Hadith is created or uncreated???
The Quran here refers to the mushaf. The Mushaf is created, but the letters and words therein are not.

And this is not the first time we have clarified this issue for you.

[sunnih]

Just like the Qur'an in the hadith I quoted means the Zabur. So do not waver left and right brother. The mountain can not be crushed using a straw. The principles of Ahlus-sunnah have been long established. Give it a rest please brother.

[Sawtul Islam]

Just like the Qur'an in the hadith I quoted means the Zabur. So do not waver left and right brother. The mountain can not be crushed using a straw. The principles of Ahlus-sunnah have been long established. Give it a rest please brother.

Brother Sunnih, do you believe the Qur'an was created or uncreated?

[Abu_Abdallah]

Brother Sunnih, do you believe the Qur'an was created or uncreated?

The Qur'an is the uncreated Speech of Allah.

What does the believer in 'Allah is everywhere' and 'No sex in paradise' profess?

[Sawtul Islam]

If I'm not mistaken this is a question of whether Allah created the Qur'an as the expression of his kalam, or literally read the Qur'an to Jibrail, is this it?

[Abu_Abdallah]

If I'm not mistaken this is a question of whether Allah created the Qur'an as the expression of his kalam, or literally read the Qur'an to Jibrail, is this it?

This is an answer of a man who fears men.

..I give up. You refuted me here. LOL...

Just answer the question, please.

Sawtul, when you came here, you lied about your whereabouts.

That's not a good start.

Now you are hopping about from one country to another. Again,
misleading us. It does not give us a good impression of you.

I will be ignoring you from now on

Are you the same? And please, don't answer just this question alone.

[Sawtul Islam]

This is an answer of a man who fears men.

..I give up. You refuted me here. LOL...

?? what are you talking about? Im not refuting anyone Im just asking if this is what is being discussed. If so, then it's a pointless discussion if you ask me (what difference would it make if Allah created His own words or literally spoke them? The Qur'an is Allah's words either way).


Are you the same? And please, don't answer just this question alone.

I see you read my link, then be sure to read the response to it too and also this:http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9843&PN=1&TPN=1


I may be the same person, why?

[Sawtul Islam]

This is an answer of a man who fears men.

..I give up. You refuted me here. LOL...

?? what are you talking about? Im not refuting anyone Im just asking if this is what is being discussed. If so, then it's a pointless discussion if you ask me (what difference would it make if Allah created His own words or literally spoke them? The Qur'an is Allah's words either way).


Are you the same? And please, don't answer just this question alone.

I see you read my link, then be sure to read the response to it too and also this:http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9843&PN=1&TPN=1


I may be the same person, why?

[Abu_Abdallah]

Just answer the questions. Why evade them.. Answer please. Is the Qur'an, Allah's Speech, created or not?

[Sawtul Islam]

Just answer the questions. Why evade them.. Answer please. Is the Qur'an, Allah's Speech, created or not?

Im not evading the question I just dont really have an opinion on it as I dont see any point in even thinking about it. The Qur'an is the words of Allah, that's all I believe in this regard.

[sunnih]

Brother Sunnih, do you believe the Qur'an was created or uncreated?

The Qur'an is the speech of Allah and the speech of Allah is one of His attributes and His attributes are not created. Qur'an is not created. But as you are a Jahmi on the rest of the attributes of Allah probably you will not agree with this anyway so what is the point in discussing with you?????????????????

[Abu Maryam PK]

Bismillah
فتح الباري بشرح صحيح البخاري


<!--BR--> <table dir="rtl" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>حَدِيث مَالِك فِي ذَلِكَ وَهُوَ بِلَفْظِ " نَهَى أَنْ يُسَافَر بِالْقُرْآنِ إِلَى أَرْض الْعَدُوّ " وَأَوْرَدَهُ اِبْن مَاجَهْ مِنْ طَرِيق عَبْد الرَّحْمَن بْن مَهْدِيّ عَنْ مَالِك وَزَادَ " مَخَافَة أَنْ يَنَالهُ الْعَدُوّ " رَوَاهُ اِبْن وَهْب عَنْ مَالِك فَقَالَ " خَشْيَة أَنْ يَنَالهُ الْعَدُوّ " وَأَخْرَجَهُ أَبُو دَاوُدَ عَنْ الْقُعْنُبِيِّ عَنْ مَالِك فَقَالَ : قَالَ مَالِك أَرَاهُ " مَخَافَة " فَذَكَرَهُ , قَالَ أَبُو عُمَر : كَذَا قَالَ يَحْيَى بْن يَحْيَى الْأَنْدَلُسِيّ وَيَحْيَى بْن بَكِير , وَأَكْثَر الرُّوَاة عَنْ مَالِك جَعَلُوا التَّعْلِيل مِنْ كَلَامه وَلَمْ يَرْفَعُوهُ ; وَأَشَارَ إِلَى أَنَّ اِبْن وَهْب تَفَرَّدَ بِرَفْعِهَا , وَلَيْسَ كَذَلِكَ لِمَا قَدَّمْته مِنْ رِوَايَة اِبْن مَاجَهْ , وَهَذِهِ الزِّيَادَة رَفَعَهَا اِبْن إِسْحَاق أَيْضًا كَمَا تَقَدَّمَ , وَكَذَلِكَ أَخْرَجهَا مُسْلِم وَالنَّسَائِيُّ وَابْن مَاجَهْ مِنْ طَرِيق اللَّيْث عَنْ نَافِع , وَمُسْلِم مِنْ طَرِيق أَيُّوب بِلَفْظِ " فَإِنِّي لَا آمَن أَنْ يَنَالهُ الْعَدُوّ " فَصَحَّ أَنَّهُ مَرْفُوع وَلَيْسَ بِمُدْرَجٍ , وَلَعَلَّ مَالِكًا كَانَ يَجْزِم بِهِ , ثُمَّ صَارَ يَشُكّ فِي رَفْعه فَجَعَلَهُ مِنْ تَفْسِير نَفْسه . قَالَ اِبْن عَبْد الْبَرّ : أَجْمَع الْفُقَهَاء أَنْ لَا يُسَافَر بِالْمُصْحَفِ فِي السَّرَايَا وَالْعَسْكَر الصَّغِير الْمَخُوف عَلَيْهِ , وَاخْتَلَفُوا فِي الْكَبِير الْمَأْمُون عَلَيْهِ : فَمَنَعَ مَالِك أَيْضًا مُطْلَقًا , وَفَصَّلَ أَبُو حَنِيفَة , وَأَدَارَ الشَّافِعِيَّة الْكَرَاهَة مَعَ الْخَوْف وُجُودًا وَعَدَمًا . وَقَالَ بَعْضهمْ كَالْمَالِكِيَّةِ , وَاسْتَدَلَّ بِهِ عَلَى مَنْع بَيْع الْمُصْحَف مِنْ الْكَافِر لِوُجُودِ الْمَعْنَى الْمَذْكُور فِيهِ وَهُوَ التَّمَكُّن مِنْ الِاسْتِهَانَة بِهِ , وَلَا خِلَاف فِي تَحْرِيم ذَلِكَ وَإِنَّمَا وَقَعَ الِاخْتِلَاف هَلْ يَصِحّ لَوْ وَقَعَ وَيُؤْمَر بِإِزَالَةِ مِلْكه عَنْهُ أَمْ لَا ؟ وَاسْتَدَلَّ بِهِ عَلَى مَنْع تَعَلُّم الْكَافِر الْقُرْآن : فَمَنَعَ مَالِك مُطْلَقًا , وَأَجَازَ الْحَنَفِيَّة مُطْلَقًا , وَعَنْ الشَّافِعِيّ قَوْلَانِ , وَفَصَّلَ بَعْض الْمَالِكِيَّة بَيْن الْقَلِيل لِأَجْلِ مَصْلَحَة قِيَام الْحُجَّة عَلَيْهِمْ فَأَجَازَهُ , وَبَيْن الْكَثِير فَمَنَعَهُ . وَيُؤَيِّدهُ قِصَّة هِرَقْل حَيْثُ كَتَبَ إِلَيْهِ النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ بَعْض الْآيَات , وَقَدْ سَبَقَ فِي " بَاب هَلْ يُرْشِد بِشَيْءٍ مِنْ هَذَا " وَقَدْ نَقَلَ النَّوَوِيّ الِاتِّفَاق عَلَى جَوَاز الْكِتَابَة إِلَيْهِمْ بِمِثْلِ ذَلِكَ . ‏
‏( تَنْبِيه ) : ‏
‏اِدَّعَى اِبْن بَطَّال أَنَّ تَرْتِيب هَذَا الْبَاب وَقَعَ فِيهِ غَلَط مِنْ النَّاسِخ , وَأَنَّ الصَّوَاب أَنْ يُقَدِّم حَدِيث مَالِك قَبْل قَوْله " وَكَذَلِكَ يُرْوَى عَنْ مُحَمَّد بْن بِشْر إِلَخْ " قَالَ : وَإِنَّمَا اِحْتَاجَ إِلَى الْمُتَابَعَة لِأَنَّ بَعْض النَّاس زَادَ فِي الْحَدِيث " مَخَافَة أَنْ يَنَالهُ الْعَدُوّ " وَلَمْ تَصِحّ هَذِهِ الزِّيَادَة عِنْد مَالِك وَلَا عِنْد الْبُخَارِيّ اِنْتَهَى . وَمَا اِدَّعَاهُ مِنْ الْغَلَط مَرْدُود , فَإِنَّهُ اِسْتَنَدَ إِلَى أَنَّهُ لَمْ يَتَقَدَّم شَيْء يُشَار إِلَيْهِ بِقَوْلِهِ كَذَلِكَ , وَلَيْسَ كَمَا قَالَ لِأَنَّهُ أَشَارَ بِقَوْلِهِ " كَذَلِكَ " إِلَى لَفْظ التَّرْجَمَة كَمَا بَيَّنَهُ مِنْ رِوَايَة الْمُسْتَمْلِيّ , وَأَمَّا مَا اِدَّعَاهُ مِنْ سَبَب الْمُتَابَعَة فَلَيْسَ كَمَا قَالَ , فَإِنَّ لَفْظ الْكَرَاهِيَة تَفَرَّدَ بِهِ مُحَمَّد بْن بِشْر , وَمُتَابَعَة اِبْن إِسْحَاق لَهُ إِنَّمَا هِيَ فِي أَصْل الْحَدِيث لَكِنَّهُ أَفَادَ أَنَّ الْمُرَاد بِالْقُرْآنِ الْمُصْحَف لَا حَامِل الْقُرْآن .



صحيح مسلم بشرح النووي


<!--BR--> <table dir="rtl" align="right" border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="5"><tbody><tr><td>قَوْله : ( نَهَى رَسُول اللَّه صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ أَنْ يُسَافَرَ بِالْقُرْآنِ إِلَى أَرْض الْعَدُوّ ) وَفِي الرِّوَايَة الْأُخْرَى : ( مَخَافَة أَنْ يَنَالهُ الْعَدُوّ ) وَفِي الرِّوَايَة الْأُخْرَى : ( فَإِنِّي لَا آمَن أَنْ يَنَالهُ الْعَدُوّ ) فِيهِ : النَّهْي عَنْ الْمُسَافَرَة بِالْمُصْحَفِ إِلَى أَرْض الْكُفَّار</td></tr></tbody></table>
</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Sawtul Islam]

The Qur'an is the speech of Allah and the speech of Allah is one of His attributes and His attributes are not created. Qur'an is not created. But as you are a Jahmi on the rest of the attributes of Allah probably you will not agree with this anyway so what is the point in discussing with you?????????????????

ehhhh, I already said Im NOT discussing anything I was just asking.

Also I already refuted your "Jahmi" allegations on "Who are the Jahmiyyah?" thread.

[sunnih]

ehhhh, I already said Im NOT discussing anything I was just asking.

Also I already refuted your "Jahmi" allegations on "Who are the Jahmiyyah?" thread.

My Jahmi allegations on "Who are the Jahmiyah?"

As for your beliefs, yes you are a JAHMI whether you call yourself one or not.

[Abu Maryam PK]

Bismillah
Incidentally,
many mu'tazilli,kullabis,murjiis never called themselves jahmiis, but imams bukhari and ahmed still described them as such [Sharah Khalq Af'aal Al-'ibaad by Sh Al-fuhaid, vol 1]

[Sawtul Islam]

Bismillah
Incidentally,
many mu'tazilli,kullabis,murjiis never called themselves jahmiis, but imams bukhari and ahmed still described them as such [Sharah Khalq Af'aal Al-'ibaad by Sh Al-fuhaid, vol 1]


So which one am I? A Mu'tazilah, a Murji or a Kullabi? You guys should really think before making such accusations, if I wasnt used to be accused I would've been really angry by now and may have felt hatred towards "Salafis" as a result.

I clearly showed that the Prophet (pbuh) said Allah is time and I proved using other ahadith that this was Not metaphorical and no one has yet managed or even attempted to refute the explanation on that thread. So know that if I am right (and I am that's why you cant refute me) then you are making these accusations against the Prophet (pbuh) not just against me.

[Skillganon]

So which one am I? A Mu'tazilah, a Murji or a Kullabi? You guys should really think before making such accusations, if I wasnt used to be accused I would've been really angry by now and may have felt hatred towards "Salafis" as a result.

I clearly showed that the Prophet (pbuh) said Allah is time and I proved using other ahadith that this was Not metaphorical and no one has yet managed or even attempted to refute the explanation on that thread. So know that if I am right (and I am that's why you cant refute me) then you are making these accusations against the Prophet (pbuh) not just against me.

Someone already answered & refuted your question, you probably have missed it.

[Sawtul Islam]

Someone already answered & refuted your question, you probably have missed it.

Where? D you have the link?