Women and their intellects

[asharee_salafi]

As wr wb,

Is there a hadeeth that states that women are deficient in intellects, and the hadeeth goes on, how do we understand this hadeeth?

(No offence sisters)

[asharee_salafi]

anytakes? anyone? going going......gone? ;)

[abu hafs]

http://www.madeenah.com/article.cfm?id=1134

[morbius]

http://www.madeenah.com/article.cfm?id=1134

And then some claim that Islam stands for “true equality between the sexes” and isn't belittling to women.

And that hadeeth speaks utter nonsense. Women do not have worse intellect or memory than men, IQ tests and statistics of academic achievements have proven that beyond any doubt.

Smartest person I ever had a chance to meet was actually a muslim women from Iran, the wife of an acquittance of mine.

[abu_ibrahim]

And then some claim that Islam stands for “true equality between the sexes” and isn't belittling to women.

Read this: http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=1105&ln=eng

And that hadeeth speaks utter nonsense.

whats nonsense is you worshipping a man.

[B. Rashaad]

Wa 'alaykum as-salaam wa rahmatullaah

It's funny because when I read the hadeeth in Arabic, I don't get the same sentiments (of sorrow and hurt, even though what the Prophet- salallaahu 'alayhi was-sallam is true). This is because the word used to translate the Arabic word 'naqs' is deficiency, which brings about associations such as something being 'wrong' with you, whereas if the word is translated litterally, it means 'lacking'. One might not give it much thought as both words are synonyms with slightly different meanings, but it does make a difference to the Arabic ear, as deficient is (in my opinion) a much much stronger and loaded word. Everyone can be lacking in something without them having something 'wrong' with them. In our case, it's things like memory and our ability to perform prayer at all times. In the case of men it might be things like the ability to show hanaan properly and lack of empathy.

So, buttom-line, we're all lacking, we just lack in different areas and aspectc of life and Deen.

[morbius]

Read this: http://www.islam-qa.com/index.php?ref=1105&ln=eng


When we in the west speak of equality between the sexes we (obviously) do not mean biological equality, but equality in rights. This Islamic “justice” that exists between the sexes would be by almost all women in the west described as gross injustice.

How about women here? Do you really feel that you have only half the intellect of me, the man?

[Umm Ahmed]

This Islamic “justice” that exists between the sexes would be by almost all women in the west described as gross injustice.
How ?

Its not half a brain that you might be thinking is being implied here , but we do lack as one brother mentioned above , we have menstruation and during that time we cant pray or fast. Also we are very emotional Morbius and sometimes tend to let emotions get the better of us , these emotions of course are the ones that allows a mother to stay awake all night with a sick child , and able to cope with children and housework on a daily basis.
Islaam gave women their rights long before us women in the west.

[morbius]

Umm Ahmed, no one here denies that there are biological and psychological differences between men and women. I was asking about intellectual differences that this hadeeth says exist.

So, I will ask you again. Do you feel that you as a women have only half the intellect of me, the man? The way you were arguing with me in the past makes me believe that you don’t think so.

How about others here? Do you feel that women are vastly intellectually inferior to men?

[morbius]

Well, your silence truly speaks lauder then words.

[Umm Ahmed]

I don't think it is intellect as in smart or clever ,my children are just pointing out to me the limits of the English language. Maybe some of the brothers and sisters can explain the word better.

[umm emman]

the believing women is better than the disbeliving man.

[abu_ibrahim]

In Islam, deficiencies are considered different as to what you are thinking. We are not talking about who scores more highly in their science project or in their Maths exam. I gave you a explanation about what context it is about, like women unable to pray during menstruation.

[morbius]

In Islam, deficiencies are considered different as to what you are thinking. We are not talking about who scores more highly in their science project or in their Maths exam. I gave you a explanation about what context it is about, like women unable to pray during menstruation.

The explanation that you offered clearly states:

And men are different in intellectual terms, for men are known for their strength of understanding and their memory as compared to women.
‘because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other’ i.e., because men are superior to women and are better than women.

[abu_ibrahim]

The explanation that you offered clearly states:

Female behaviour is explained how it is affected in these situations in 'The Pre-menstrual Syndrome', C. Shreeves who writes:

"Reduced powers of concentration and memory are familiar aspects of the pre-menstrual syndrome and can only be remedied by treating the underlying complaint."

Read more here: http://www.howard.edu/library/assist/guides/islam/womenwitness.htm

"Also it is under these situations that women can experience extraordinary psychological strains giving rise to depression, lack of concentration, slow-mindedness and memory loss".

Shreeves goes on to write:

"It just means that their mental faculties can become affected at certain times in the biological cycle. "As many as 80 percent of women are aware of some degree of pre-menstrual changes, 40 percent are substantially disturbed by them, and between 10 and 20 percent are seriously disabled as a result of the syndrome."

Since men do not have this, as they are not affected by this.

[morbius]

Haahahahahhahahahahahahaahah :D You’ve sure put a smile on my face. :D Thank you for that.

And thank you for finally making me realize that powers of apologetics are infinite! Now I know that there is really no limit to how far a person will go in conjuring up excuses for what he believes in. I honestly thank you for that.

Whenever in the future I get in an argument with any fanatic (regardless of his religion or ideology) I will send him a link to this thread to show him how far people would go in apologizing and fooling themselves.

[abu_ibrahim]

Haahahahahhahahahahahahaahah :D You’ve sure put a smile on my face. :D Thank you for that.

And thank you for finally making me realize that powers of apologetics are infinite! Now I know that there is really no limit to how far a person will go in conjuring up excuses for what he believes in. I honestly thank you for that.

Whenever in the future I get in an argument with any fanatic (regardless of his religion or ideology) I will send him a link to this thread to show him how far people would go in apologizing and fooling themselves.

How about what the Bible says about women in menses? How the bible describes women as unclean that no one should touch her or anything that a woman sits on becomes unclean. Does the Bible say that women are unclean?

MENSES IN THE BIBLE

When a woman has a discharge of blood which in her regular discharge from her body, she shall be apart seven days. And whosoever touches her shall be unclean until the evening. And every thing that she lies upon in her separation shall be unclean. Every thing also that she sits upon shall be unclean. And whosoever touches her bed shall wash his clothes and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening. And whosoever touches anything that she sat upon shall wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening. And if it be on her bed, or any thing whereon she sits when he touches it: he shall be unclean until the evening. And if any man lie with her at all, and her flowers be upon him: he shall be unclean seven days, and all the bed whereon she lies shall be unclean. And if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation: All the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her separation, she shall be unclean. Every bed whereon she lies all the days of her issue shall be unto her as the bed of her separation, and whatsoever she sits upon shall be unclean, as the uncleanness of her separation. And whosoever touches those things shall be unclean and shall wash his clothes and bathes himself in water, and he be unclean until the evening. But if she be cleansed of her issue, then she shall number to herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean. And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest to the door of the meeting tent. [Leviticus 15:19]

[Umm Ahmed]

Haahahahahhahahahahahahaahah :D You’ve sure put a smile on my face. :D Thank you for that.

And thank you for finally making me realize that powers of apologetics are infinite! Now I know that there is really no limit to how far a person will go in conjuring up excuses for what he believes in. I honestly thank you for that.

Whenever in the future I get in an argument with any fanatic (regardless of his religion or ideology) I will send him a link to this thread to show him how far people would go in apologizing and fooling themselves.

I don't get what you find funny . Women moods change before and during their periods ,and during pregnancy , we can be anything from a blubbering mess to a raging bull.

[abu_ibrahim]

I don't get what you find funny . Women moods change before and during their periods ,and during pregnancy , we can be anything from a blubbering mess to a raging bull.

Here is what the Yahoo site:http://au.health.yahoo.com/041101/25/1v1m.html?r=967529625

"Deficiencies may occur resulting in tiredness, weakness, a pale complexion, poor concentration, poor memory, infections and irritability."

[Umm Ahmed]

Here is what the Yahoo site:http://au.health.yahoo.com/041101/25/1v1m.html?r=967529625

"Deficiencies may occur resulting in tiredness, weakness, a pale complexion, poor concentration, poor memory, infections and irritability."

Yes there is that too , for the women who have heavy periods, they lose iron and that can make you sleep a lot if its not checked.

[Brother_Mujahid]

And then some claim that Islam stands for “true equality between the sexes” and isn't belittling to women.

And that hadeeth speaks utter nonsense. Women do not have worse intellect or memory than men, IQ tests and statistics of academic achievements have proven that beyond any doubt.

Smartest person I ever had a chance to meet was actually a muslim women from Iran, the wife of an acquittance of mine.

Yet blacks have a lower intellectual capacity than whites?

[abu_ibrahim]

Yet blacks have a lower intellectual capacity than whites?

I forgot he had said that. Is that what Christianity taught him, that a black man is less intelligent than a what man?

[morbius]

Ok, let's review hadith as originaly quoted.
So it was said:

“O Messenger of Allaah, what is the deficiency in her intelligence?”

He said:

“Isn’t the witness of two women equal to that of one man?”

Can't be any more obvious that Muhammad used this as an example of poor intellect of women.
Testimony of a young women who is not in her menopause is still worth only half of a testimony of a man.

I forgot he had said that. Is that what Christianity taught him, that a black man is less intelligent than a what man?

IQ tests and SAT results show that there are differences in average intelligence between different racial groups. However, they don't show differences between the sexes within the same racial group.

[just a guy]

IQ tests and SAT results show that there are differences in average intelligence between different racial groups. However, they don't show differences between the sexes within the same racial group.


do the studies factor in socio-economic status, level of education or even standard of education. what about familial background or cultural factors.
what about discrimmination or other personal life experiences that minorities face but their counterpart anglo saxons do not...

though, black students or even hispanic students in america score less on such standard tests, it doesn t factor in the above...hence, its been under constant criticism because its dangerously flawed.

and i think the view that morbius holds (if its true) is down right racist and bigoted....are u eastern european by any chance?!?! its precisely this kind of views that are prominent in the nationalist/ethnocentric cults in eastern europe...

....not to mention that slavery was also justified by chrisitianity...primarily in the Americas...bibical passages and interpretations were fabricated and misinterpreted to fit the views of that time period...

Allah knows best


ps Morbius, whats u r take on christianity and the status of woman?!? and if u can site some passages, that would be great...

thanks

[abu_ibrahim]

Ok, let's review hadith as originaly quoted.


Can't be any more obvious that Muhammad used this as an example of poor intellect of women.
Testimony of a young women who is not in her menopause is still worth only half of a testimony of a man.

The scientific evidence showed upto 80% of women have affects of it with different degree's. Upto 20% have a severe case, whilst upto 60% have a moderate problems. If a woman is suffering from slow mindedness, weak memory or lack of concentration, it is only logical that two testimonies are required for one man. Also there are emotional affects of a woman in menstruation, which cause's mood swings which could cloud ones judgement in a testimony.

I don't know how much more simpler I can explain to you.

[morbius]

do the studies factor in socio-economic status, level of education or even standard of education. what about familial background or cultural factors.
what about discrimmination or other personal life experiences that minorities face but their counterpart anglo saxons do not...

though, black students or even hispanic students in america score less on such standard tests, it doesn t factor in the above...hence, its been under constant criticism because its dangerously flawed.

Hmmm... Chinese were brought to America practically like slaves, were heavily discriminated against and considered to be inferior. Chinese immigration to USA is still very high and many Chinese in the USA are poor, just like blacks.
So explain to me how is it possible that on average Chinese score on IQ tests and SATs higher then whites, while blacks score lower?

And I honestly can't see what kind of education could prepare you for questions like this.
http://nicologic.free.fr/matrixa/matrixa_04.gif

Good IQ tests are made to be independent of level of education of participants.

....not to mention that slavery was also justified by chrisitianity...primarily in the Americas...bibical passages and interpretations were fabricated and misinterpreted to fit the views of that time period..
Christianity doesn't approve of slavery, but people will always find excuses for what they want to do.
And Islam is not opposed to slavery, BTW.

ps Morbius, whats u r take on christianity and the status of woman?!? and if u can site some passages, that would be great...

thanks
I'm putting it on my to-do list. Too busy now. Although it's Sunday night I have a project to finish.

[salahuddin_ayyubi]

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b337/li-mod/PreviewSp001.jpg

Scan from a book by Bilal Philips.

[just a guy]

thanks for u r reply morbius

Hmmm... Chinese were brought to America practically like slaves, were heavily discriminated against and considered to be inferior.

hmm...i dont think they were brought "practically like slaves". they came her on their own accord---some for economic opportunity while others to seek asylum....not the case for the african slaves---they were forced and chained AGAINST their wishes. u r comments are historically inaccurate.

Chinese immigration to USA is still very high and many Chinese in the USA are poor, just like blacks.

porportionately to blacks?!?!


So explain to me how is it possible that on average Chinese score on IQ tests and SATs higher then whites, while blacks score lower?

so does that mean chinese people are inherently smarter then whites?!?

as i alluded to earlier, u can not have a simplistic black and white rendering of one race's intellectual capability. again morbius, u have to factor in things such as cultural and or familial values and many other external factors. chinese families value education like none other; they instill in their children hard working ethics, respect for authority, conformity, status and sacrifice. of course, if u drill u r children with such values, they will be driven to achieve their goals at ALL costs. now i dont know if u r familiar with the black communities or ghettos in states, but a single black mother of 4 children who works usually 2 or 3 jobs does not have time to sit with junior 1,2,3 and 4 to read or to make sure they are performing to their utmost abilities. moreover, especially since she was by product of neglect and discrimmination, it becomes a vicious cycle.....

on th other hand, chinese families are not only adamant but they are very diligent on checking the performance of their children...single parenting is close to non existant in chinese families. and one would be naive to exclude such a contributing factor in children's performance.

this list is endless and i care not to start spewing everything one by one....not to mention, i was a teacher at one point and so i ve seen this first hand such keen difference in experiences among my white students and black students

And I honestly can't see what kind of education could prepare you for questions like this.
http://nicologic.free.fr/matrixa/matrixa_04.gif



Good IQ tests are made to be independent of level of education of participants.

hmm....have u ever taken an IQ test?!? what about the SATs that u mentioned?!?! again both tests have been critisized in that they are culturally biased particularily the SATs.



Christianity doesn't approve of slavery, but people will always find excuses for what they want to do.
And Islam is not opposed to slavery, BTW.

define slavery?


I'm putting it on my to-do list. Too busy now. Although it's Sunday night I have a project to finish.

that be great if u could

[morbius]

hmm...i dont think they were brought "practically like slaves". they came her on their own accord---some for economic opportunity while others to seek asylum....not the case for the african slaves---they were forced and chained AGAINST their wishes. u r comments are historically inaccurate.


A lot of them came lured by promises of better life in the new world, but in reality they ended up working like slaves and for long time were not allowed to stay in America after work they were brought for was done.

porportionately to blacks?!?!
I wouldn’t know.

so does that mean chinese people are inherently smarter then whites?!?
Nations of East Asia have higher average IQ’s than white people of Europe.
“Smart” and “intelligent” are not necessarily synonyms, we shouldn’t use them as such.

as i alluded to earlier, u can not have a simplistic black and white rendering of one race's intellectual capability. again morbius, u have to factor in things such as cultural and or familial values and many other external factors. chinese families value education like none other; they instill in their children hard working ethics, respect for authority, conformity, status and sacrifice. of course, if u drill u r children with such values, they will be driven to achieve their goals at ALL costs. now i dont know if u r familiar with the black communities or ghettos in states, but a single black mother of 4 children who works usually 2 or 3 jobs does not have time to sit with junior 1,2,3 and 4 to read or to make sure they are performing to their utmost abilities. moreover, especially since she was by product of neglect and discrimmination, it becomes a vicious cycle.....
Although there is no definition that everybody agrees on, Intelligence is usually defined as a property of mind that encompasses many related abilities, such as the capacities to reason, plan, solve problems, think abstractly, comprehend ideas and language, and learn.
Intelligence is predominantly genetic characteristic. Mental exercises have shown to have little effect on IQ scores. IQ score that you had with age 7 you will have with the age of 47, regardless of how much education you had in the meantime. Remember, higher IQ just gives you better ability to learn, but the rest is up to you.
A child with lower IQ that studies hard can do better in school than child with high IQ that simply doesn’t have the desire to learn anything. But still, when you give them the same IQ test, worse student will score better.

hmm....have u ever taken an IQ test?!? what about the SATs that u mentioned?!?! again both tests have been critisized in that they are culturally biased particularily the SATs.
I score about 140 on IQ tests, but I’ve never tried an SAT, since I don’t live in USA.
You are right when you say that tests can be faulty. For instance, there was a study made in France that included IQ testing of over 10 000 children. Study has shown that children who live in the country side have lower IQ’s than children that live in cities, but that conclusion later proved to be wrong. Psychologists have modified the tests so they would be closer to children from villages and repeated testing showed no differences in IQ.

However, no one ever managed to customize IQ tests so that blacks score as well as other races, although many have tried. In fact, all experimental attempts to show that there are no IQ differences between the races have ended up showing that differences indeed exist.

define slavery?
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9109538/slavery

[al-omari]

Morbius do you believe that the white or European race are superior and in what sense?

[morbius]

Morbius do you believe that the white or European race are superior and in what sense?

“Superior” is not a word that should be used when we talk about humans.
IQ is not the only thing that makes a man. As I’ve said before, man with low IQ that tries hard can have better academic achievements than a man with high IQ that doesn’t.
Difference in intelligence between the races is also well observed among dogs. For instance, cocker spaniels learn much faster then other dogs, but would you say they are superior to other dogs because of it?

OK, let’s get back on the subject, after the delay caused by my work.
There seems to be no scientific evidence that intellectual abilities of women drop during “that part of a month”.
http://www.indiana.edu/~intell/lhollingworth.shtml
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/176677/leta_hollingworth_the_nature_of_the.html
http://app1.chinadaily.com.cn/star/2002/0711/cn9-1.html

[umm hasan]

What is amazing is that reality contradicts scientific claims. Thats why i don't believe in this scientific crap,the way i see it is simple.

How many millitary war generals are/have been women.
How many fighter pilots or other skilled millitary people are/have been women.
How many heads of state are/have been women.

How many inventors are/have been women.
How many so called western intellectuals are/have been women.

I could go on forever my friend, there are exceptions to the rule but you will find in any culture, present past civilization men have been all the above. This by no means makes women stupid but it's the truth.

In the west women are made to think they are something they are not, In the west you were not allowed to vote, inherit or even pick up the bible until recently. Muslim women have got real respect and rights since the beginning of islam, something the western women still doesn't have. You women are molded by the state to make the state more richer.

[morbius]

What is amazing is that reality contradicts scientific claims. Thats why i don't believe in this scientific crap,the way i see it is simple.

You keep forgetting that until relatively recently women were completely marginalized in society. It wasn’t until 20th century that a woman in Europe could get a good education. It wasn’t until shortage of men during the world wars that women were finally begun to get hired for intellectual work. The only thing that parents used to considere when it comes to future of their daughters was how to merry them well.

How many millitary war generals are/have been women.
How many fighter pilots or other skilled millitary people are/have been women.
Women’s weaker bodies made them unfit for war.

How many inventors are/have been women.
This shouldn’t be attributed only to past lack of education of women, but also to their different psychological framework.
Women simply don’t have in them the desire to explore, to discover for themselves. I thing it is exactly because of this reason that women don’t enjoy playing video games.
When I recently bought GPS navigator for the car, my son took it and experimented with it until he found out how it works. When my daughter saw it, she took it into her hands, played with it for about a minute and then asked me: “How do I use it?”. And she is the smarter one, always did better in school with less effort.
In my high school section for natural sciences was mostly filled with guys, while girls were predominant in the social/language section. Interests of men and women are not the same, although their intellectual abilities are.

I could go on forever my friend, there are exceptions to the rule but you will find in any culture, present past civilization men have been all the above. This by no means makes women stupid but it's the truth.
England for instance reached golden ages while it was ruled by women, queens Elisabeth and Victoria.

Muslim women have got real respect and rights since the beginning of islam, something the western women still doesn't have.
Ask some women in the west what do they think about this statement of yours.
Most of them wouldn’t enter this Islamic “freedom” for all the wealth in the world.

[JayshAllah]

Men are smarter than women. That's just a fact.

Morbius is smoking crack cocaine. Just look at SATs: boys outscore girls. You can't use that for race, because race would be affected by socio-economic standards. On the other hand, boys and girls are equally adjusted for socio-economic factors.

Read this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=405056&in_page_id=1770

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/4183166.stm

You know, everyone knows that men are smarter. It's just a matter of it not being politically correct to say that. God gave man more intelligence because he is the leader of the family, and He gave women more Rahma (mercy) because she is the nurturer of the family. Each excels in that which it needs.

[asharee_salafi]

JayshAllah,

Thank you so very much!

[JayshAllah]

JayshAllah,

Thank you so very much!

Seriously!

Most women have a hissy fit when you say this in public debate ,but honestly, almost all women admit it in private. Most husbands can tell their wives that men are smarter, and the wife will just laugh and say yeah.

I don't even think men are a little smarter. I say they are much smarter. Just the way it is. Shrug.

It's retarded to claim that they are equal, because we are biologically different. We are stronger. Are you going to claim that "no, that's politically incorrect to say" ??!? It's just a fact that we men are stronger...have you noticed that even the wimpiest guy on earth can beat a woman in a cage match?

The brain is just another "organ" ... so it's no surprise that there is a difference between men and women in this aspect.

I find that many Muslims just try to become apologetic on this issue, but there is no need for that. Everyone knows--deep down inside their hearts--that men are smarter.

But women are more beautiful. :) Do you see us Muslim men crying over that?

[IbnShaykh]

Wa 'alaykum as-salaam wa rahmatullaah

It's funny because when I read the hadeeth in Arabic, I don't get the same sentiments (of sorrow and hurt, even though what the Prophet- salallaahu 'alayhi was-sallam is true). This is because the word used to translate the Arabic word 'naqs' is deficiency, which brings about associations such as something being 'wrong' with you, whereas if the word is translated litterally, it means 'lacking'. One might not give it much thought as both words are synonyms with slightly different meanings, but it does make a difference to the Arabic ear, as deficient is (in my opinion) a much much stronger and loaded word. Everyone can be lacking in something without them having something 'wrong' with them. In our case, it's things like memory and our ability to perform prayer at all times. In the case of men it might be things like the ability to show hanaan properly and lack of empathy.

So, buttom-line, we're all lacking, we just lack in different areas and aspectc of life and Deen.


Mashallah now this is a balanced approach. As your explanation says 'memory' and this is what the hadeeth is refering to not intelligence in the general sense.

However jayshallah is now using the hadeeth to argue that women are generally less intelligent in all areas, and this I have to question the validity of. Jayshallah where is your evidence to suggest this hadeeth is for the general sense of intelligence? As far as I can see it refers to the testimony only and its relation to memory and not intelligence in the general sense. Plus your examples frankly are ridiclous and annoy me somewhat, that women are told they are less intelligent and they just laugh along and smile and thus this proves your point. That doesn't nor does saying 'well everyone knows it'. Prove the hadeeth is in the general sense and pretains to all forms of intelligence rather than just memory please.

Jzack Allaahu Khayra.

[B. Rashaad]

Seriously!
I don't even think men are a little smarter. I say they are much smarter. Just the way it is. Shrug.

Yet all that "zakaa” that you boast of, is so easily lost (literally), at the sight of a (loosely dressed) woman... My God, what some brothers won’t do just to get around zinna (i.e. try to do things in the halaal, before they literally lose their minds)…

Tsk tsk... So much for your ''smartness''...

Mashaa Allaah at your [I]highly substantiated thesis of women being dumber than men in just about everything (except rahmah as you made sure to mention… how nice of you).


And IbnShaykh, jazaakumullaahu khayran like-wise for standing out in a stream of ignorant postulations (made by ouw own people) and for showing people like Morbius, that brothers are not all about proving their superiourity over women and just enjoying them for their *assets* and for the *benefit* derived from them... (suddenly neanderthals come to mind) ...

[JayshAllah]

[FONT="Verdana"]Yet all that "zakaa” that you boast of, is so easily lost (literally), at the sight of a (loosely dressed) woman... My God, what some brothers won’t do just to get around zinna [in its various shapes and forms] (i.e. try to do things in the halaal, before they literally lose their minds)…

Agreed!

And IbnShaykh, jazaakumullaahu khayran like-wise for standing out in a stream of ignorant postulations (made by ouw own people) and for showing people like Morbius, that brothers are not all about proving their superiourity over women and just enjoying them for their *assets* and for the *benefit* derived from them... (suddenly neanderthals come to mind) ...

Astagfur-Allah. Comparing to Neanderthals, Naudhobillah.

Men have been created superior over women by one degree.

[IbnShaykh]

Yet all that "zakaa” that you boast of, is so easily lost (literally), at the sight of a (loosely dressed) woman... My God, what some brothers won’t do just to get around zinna (i.e. try to do things in the halaal, before they literally lose their minds)…

Tsk tsk... So much for your ''smartness''...

Mashaa Allaah at your [I]highly substantiated thesis of women being dumber than men in just about everything (except rahmah as you made sure to mention… how nice of you).


And IbnShaykh, jazaakumullaahu khayran like-wise for standing out in a stream of ignorant postulations (made by ouw own people) and for showing people like Morbius, that brothers are not all about proving their superiourity over women and just enjoying them for their *assets* and for the *benefit* derived from them... (suddenly neanderthals come to mind) ...

Bismillah

I couldn't agree more, the actual comments made annoyed me somewhat especially of women 'being told' they are less intelligent and just 'smiling' along. This is direspect the kuffar show to their women and jaahil ignorant muslims, not men with izza wa sharaf and gheera for their women. Also it proves nothing, rather what I wish to see is proof from the best of men saying this, not men less than this and their claims.

[IbnShaykh]

Agreed!



Astagfur-Allah. Comparing to Neanderthals, Naudhobillah.

Men have been created superior over women by one degree.

So? What is that degree? Stop making general statements and prove it specifically otherwise its your conjecture.

And astugfrullah about your comments also making out our women are 'told' they are less intelligent and smile along as if this is acceptable.

[JayshAllah]

Yet all that "zakaa” that you boast of, is so easily lost (literally), at the sight of a (loosely dressed) woman... My God, what some brothers won’t do just to get around zinna [in its various shapes and forms] (i.e. try to do things in the halaal, before they literally lose their minds)…

Tsk tsk... So much for your ''smartness''...

Isn't that similar to what the Prophet [s] said when he said that man is so easily overcome by woman?

The Prophet [s] had said: "... to overcome an intelligent man than you, o women ... "

Mufti Ebrahim Desai said: "It is true that Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) has mentioned that women have less intelligence than men. This is recorded in Bukhari Shareef."

http://islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=9511

[IbnShaykh]

Is mufti ibrahim also the same person your getting your other views from?

[JayshAllah]

Is mufti ibrahim also the same person your getting your other views from?

He was just the first that Shaykh Yahoo bin Google referred me to. :D

[IbnShaykh]

He was just the first that Shaykh Yahoo bin Google referred me to. :D

Shaykh google has failed you bro he isn't someone I would take deen from.

Anyway what about this hadeeth, how does it say that women are less intelligent generally?

[JayshAllah]

Shaykh google has failed you bro he isn't someone I would take deen from.

I don't take my deen from him. I already knew something; I just needed to find a reference for it as I did not have the reference on the tips of my fingers so I googled it.

Anyways, how about this:

"verily that which is narrated on the Messenger (sal-Allaahu 'alayhe wa sallam) is that the women are surpassed by men, generally, in intelligence"

-Shaykh Abdul-Azeez ibn Baaz

Reference: Majmoo’ Fatawaa Wa Maqalaat Mutanawi’ah. Vol. 3/292

[IbnShaykh]

Allaahu Alaam again that doesn't convince me and forgive me if I seem bloody minded, and I openly say you could very well be right, however I don't take it from one statement. On top of this what is the conatation to this? It's something I have learned from experince that one statement doesn't constitute a whole argument.

The shaykh didn't mention the hadeeth which is a shame I would have liked to see them.

[B. Rashaad]

Jayshallaah, honestly bro- give it a rest.

So what if you're smarter than us in some aspects of life (even if that is intellegence in its generality)?

For one thing, that still doesn't apply to all men (I've met my share of stupid- litterally stupid- brothers, you couldn't even have a normal conversation with). And secondly, it's like I pointed out in my first post in this thread, we may be lacking in some aspects in life (like the abililty to think rationally at all times), while you may be lacking in others (like the ability to act with hikmah and concern at all times... Just look at the Prophet, 'alayhi as-salaat was-salaam, who he'd turn to for naseehah, i.e. Sayyidah Khadeejah, ridhwaanullaahi 'alayha, not that I'm linking the former statment with the latter (al-ayadhubillah), but this is just to give you an understanding that women aren't just some dumb creatures that know nothing except smiling at your degrading remarks about them, being pretty to look at and a means of fulfilment of shahawaat.)

Also how you do define intellegence? Is it just the ability to think rationally, speak eloquently and know a lot of math?

(And I don't want you to turn to 'Allaama Google again for this one. Just give me your own personal understanding of what intellegence is.)

[B. Rashaad]

Btw akhi, keep this up and I'm sure you'll get married some day

[IbnShaykh]

Bismillah

I agree with that, and that is why I declined to accept the shaykh's statement as evidence. The reason being firstly how is he defining intelligence? In what sense do they generally surpass? For example did he go on to say 'this is due to them loosing their ability to be rational at the times of menses'. If so this isn't intelligence as we are discussing and he is speaking about intelligence in a completly different context.

Basically I want jayshallah to prove his previous claim, that the hadeeth morbius brought proves women are generally less intelligent. By that I mean as in all aspects of what you consider intelligent, not just certain specific aspects.

The statement of shaykh bin baz seem's to say this however as I said before it could be subjective. I want to see definate proof not just conjecture.

[JayshAllah]

Allaahu Alaam again that doesn't convince me and forgive me if I seem bloody minded,

It is a matter of shedding our brainwashing by the West. We must remember that these concepts are all linked to the destruction of the communal society of Islam and its replacement by the individualistic society of the West. In the Islamic ethos, the Muslimah is more than willing to make herself obedient to her husband, but in the Western society, the woman cannot do this and she gets repulsed at the word "obedience" or "subservience". And with that, their entire Western society collapses, as it destroys the family unit which simply cannot function properly when the woman is wearing pants as well. The kids are then raised by the TV, as both parents are working outside the home (again, because they think that men and women are "equal").

The shaykh didn't mention the hadeeth which is a shame I would have liked to see them.

It was in fact his statement with regards to that Hadeeth.

Jayshallaah, honestly bro- give it a rest.

Give what a rest? I think it is you, Sister, who needs to give your feminism-mixed-in-Islam a rest. It is you who is getting highly emotional in this thread, not I.

So what if you're smarter than us in some aspects of life (even if that is intellegence in its generality)?

I agree with you that "so what." When did I say otherwise? It is annoying how you continually place words and ideas into my mouth and brain. I was never harping on the inferiority of women. I don't care, nor do I routinely make a big deal out of it. I did not open up a thread and say "women are inferior to men, nanner nanner nanner." Instead, there was a thread in which some people were mixing liberalism and kaafir ideas with Islam, so I came to the defense of the Sunnah. I never go up to women and say "hey you're dumb", but if some woman were to claim that men and women were equal in intelligence or rank, then I would correct her.

For one thing, that still doesn't apply to all men

Of course not. Nobody says it does. So your continual whining is annoying. Stop putting words into my mouth. Show me where I said all men? Please do. In fact, I pointed you to an article by Mufti Ebrahim Desai in which he specifically said that not all men are superior to all women, and he even said that he was sure there were many women who were superior in intelligence to himself.


while you may be lacking in others (like the ability to act with hikmah and concern at all times...

Men lack in some things which women excel at. I already stated this. One such example is Rahma (mercy). Another is beauty. You fail to accept either as a compliment, but instead you misconstrue them as something negative.

but this is just to give you an understanding that women aren't just some dumb creatures

Again with your childish placing of words into my mouth. Enough of it. When did I ever say that women are dumb? I never said that. In fact, I linked you to an article written by Mufti Ebrahim Desai in which he *specifically* says that just because we say that men are more intelligent, then this does not mean that women are stupid. For example, we say that Prophet Muhammad [s] was the most superior of Prophets, above and beyond the rest. But does this mean that we say that the rest of the Prophets were of no value? In fact, we say they have an exalted status, but we say that Prophet Muhammad [s] was more superior. So if we say that men excel women, then this does not mean that women are crap. The number 1,000 is a big number and it is greater than 999. Yes, 1,000 is greater than 999, but still we say that 999 is a big number.

that know nothing except smiling at your degrading remarks about them,

Again, with your childish placing of words into my mouth. I never said that they "know nothing", but rather I said that most women I have come across do not find it a big deal to admit that men are more intelligent if this is said in a private discussion among friends/family/etc. As for degrading remarks, watch your mouth. It would be wise to watch your mouth when you talk about such matters.

being pretty to look at and a means of fulfilment of shahawaat.)

This is how you feminists show your bias and annoyingness. If we men had said that men were more beautiful and superior looking than women, then you feminists would be crying about how sexist we are. Then when we say that women are more beautiful, then you cry about this too. See, you are not an honest people, but rather you are a biased people. And notice, I am not talking about WOMEN, but rather only about FEMINISTS. You may not be a feminist in the extreme form, but you definitely have been infected with elements of feminism.

Also how you do define intellegence? Is it just the ability to think rationally, speak eloquently and know a lot of math?

In generality.

The Prophet [s] did not specify one category over another.

(And I don't want you to turn to 'Allaama Google again for this one.

Once again, see my reply earlier about this: I already knew something, I did not have the reference, so I searched for it. Wow, big deal. Stop making a big deal out of nothing.

Just give me your own personal understanding of what intellegence is.)

Brain power.

Btw akhi, keep this up and I'm sure you'll get married some day

Lame response. Funny how girls are so feminist when on public forums, but when it comes to marriage then they will throw themselves at us 'sexist' guys. Trust me, I have no problem when it comes to women. I only delay marriage because I haven't found a woman that fulfills all my criteria.

I agree with that, and that is why I declined to accept the shaykh's statement as evidence.

Don't take the Shaykh's statement as evidence. Accept the Prophet's.

Again, I need not prove anything. Men are more intelligent in generality. This is a general statement.

[IbnShaykh]

Bismillah

As Salaam 3alaikum

Im not entirely convinced by this whole thing, but Allaahu Alaam. But Jayshallah I would watch these statements you are making some run close to the bone, Allaahu Alaam but I find the way you describe women and how they act very distasteful.

[Abu Malik al-Maliki]

Brother Jaysh at last we have someone standing up to the female species

[JayshAllah]

Bismillah

As Salaam 3alaikum

Im not entirely convinced by this whole thing, but Allaahu Alaam. But Jayshallah I would watch these statements you are making some run close to the bone, Allaahu Alaam but I find the way you describe women and how they act very distasteful.

Wa Alaykum as-Salam,

I think the same can be said of you and the sister. Your statements are bordering on blasphemy and could be construed as an attack on the Prophet [s]. Imagine if the Prophet [s] had posted on this forum with the post "women are deficient in intellect"...imagine how you would have responded to that.

In regards to how I describe women, you have no idea what I think of women. I am a strong believer in chivalry. I believe that wives should be treated like princesses and mothers like queens. I believe in opening doors, pulling out chairs, etc etc. I believe that a man should have enough humility towards his wife that he should--as cliche as it is--throw himself down on the ground over a puddle of water so she can walk on top of him instead of getting wet. I believe that there is nobody who loves you more than your own mother, I believe that nobody is worthy of sacrificing your life for more than your younger sister, and I believe that nobody is worthy of being adored as much as your wife. (Aside from the Prophets, etc etc) I believe that the best of men are those who are best to their wives...I believe that if one woman is raped, then an entire army should be raised up to bring her justice. I believe that there is nothing more important than protecting our women. I believe that if a ship were drowning, then the first to jump overboard would be the men so that the women could survive. I think that the man who abuses his wife is a scoundrel. I believe in the saying of Muhammad Iqbal that we should be strong as steel in the battlefield of life but soft as silk in love's bedroom. I believe we should spoil our wives. I believe...the list goes on...

So please don't put words in my mouth.

I may be sexist, but I am a "benign sexist" in the sense that I believe in chivalry as a code of conduct.

Brother Jaysh at last we have someone standing up to the female species

It is not the female species but rather the feminists I stand up to. Feminists need not be women. There are many men who are feminists.

[IbnShaykh]

Wa Alaykum as-Salam,

I think the same can be said of you and the sister. Your statements are bordering on blasphemy and could be construed as an attack on the Prophet [s]. Imagine if the Prophet [s] had posted on this forum with the post "women are deficient in intellect"...imagine how you would have responded to that.

In regards to how I describe women, you have no idea what I think of women. I am a strong believer in chivalry. I believe that wives should be treated like princesses and mothers like queens. I believe in opening doors, pulling out chairs, etc etc. I believe that a man should have enough humility towards his wife that he should--as cliche as it is--throw himself down on the ground over a puddle of water so she can walk on top of him instead of getting wet. I believe that there is nobody who loves you more than your own mother, I believe that nobody is worthy of sacrificing your life for more than your younger sister, and I believe that nobody is worthy of being adored as much as your wife. (Aside from the Prophets, etc etc) I believe that the best of men are those who are best to their wives...I believe that if one woman is raped, then an entire army should be raised up to bring her justice. I believe that there is nothing more important than protecting our women. I believe that if a ship were drowning, then the first to jump overboard would be the men so that the women could survive. I think that the man who abuses his wife is a scoundrel. I believe in the saying of Muhammad Iqbal that we should be strong as steel in the battlefield of life but soft as silk in love's bedroom. I believe we should spoil our wives. I believe...the list goes on...

So please don't put words in my mouth.

I may be sexist, but I am a "benign sexist" in the sense that I believe in chivalry as a code of conduct.



It is not the female species but rather the feminists I stand up to. Feminists need not be women. There are many men who are feminists.

Bismillah

Yeah ok, its like you've always said innit?! :)

[Rehmat]

In case - if Feminism means more power to women - then Islam is a 'feminist religion'. For example - Holy Qur'an has mention 'woman' 177 times and better inheritance deal for women then men - even though the later takes 'two-third' - he is still financially responsible for his sister, if she becomes dependent on him as a divorcee!!!!

[Abu Malik al-Maliki]

Bro Jaysh the Ahle Ilm have interpreted the hadith as in that women are not "dumber than men" but that the fact that the testimony of 1 woman = 1/2 man means they "are deficient in intellect"

[B. Rashaad]

Give what a rest? I think it is you, Sister, who needs to give your feminism-mixed-in-Islam a rest.

Yah sure, I’ll admit I have some issues with that (feminism), but that’s not due to scientifically proven facts such as men having larger brains than women, rather it is due to the degrading and humiliating (not to mention violent) behaviour I’ve personally witnessed (on several occasions) by men towards women. And if it were just a one or two-timer, I would have remained silent, but it’s gradually becoming normal around here (where I live), both amongst religious and non-religious brothers. So I guess in that sense, I may have some feministic tendencies. In your case, it was simply because I found some of your comments on women derogatory and as bimbo-portraying. That’s all.


Lame response. Funny how girls are so feminist when on public forums,

On forums (only)? I assure you that’s not the case, not at all lol.


but when it comes to marriage then they will throw themselves at us 'sexist' guys.

Now THAT is a lame comment. I don’t have to prove anything to you at all, but I will say this though: Brothers are not in short supply and if I wanted to get married simply for the sake of marriage, I would have got married a long time ago (without having to throw myself at anyone wa lillaahil hamd).

If anything I’m a very staunch believer of women not throwing themselves at guys and find it quite desperate and distasteful. Same thing with brothers.

And lastly, for me to “throw myself” at a brother (least of all (mojo)salafis), he’d have to be special… Sahaabi-special…. And even then, I’d still have my preservations.


Trust me, I have no problem when it comes to women. I only delay marriage because I haven't found a woman that fulfills all my criteria.

May Allaah grant you what your heart desires, ameen.


As for the rest of your post (spiteful remarks aside), then I appreciate that you took the time to explain your (previous) comments and how you feel about this issue. Puts things a little bit more into perspective. Jazaakallaahu khayran.

[morbius]

Yah sure, I’ll admit I have some issues with that (feminism), but that’s not due to scientifically proven facts such as men having larger brains than women

Man have 10-12% larger brain than women, but that doesn’t mean anything. If brain size was measurement of intelligence the smartest creature on Earth would be African Elephant which has a brain three times larger than human.

IQ testing shows no difference in the average scores of men and women.

[Rehmat]

YEP - Condileeza has much higher IQ than Dubya George Bush :D

[asharee_salafi]

kkk peeps,

JayshaAllah, you make some good points, but lets make them in moderationf or we don't want to offend b rashad or any other sister. I say this cos some women become murtaad because of the experience they have suffered from Muslim men, so we have to be careful about the statements about women, esp those who have suffered violence.

take care.

[Abu Malik al-Maliki]

It is a scientifc fact that men have 15 million neurones in the brain, while women only have 10 million.

[Umm Ahmed]

It is a scientifc fact that men have 15 million neurones in the brain, while women only have 10 million.

How did they count those ?

[Umm]

Sis, you are funny :)

[abu_ibrahim]

How did they count those ?

lol, they counted them one by one.

[Skillganon]

I don't know about it being funny, but it is a good question.

[Umm Ahmed]

Sis, you are funny :)

glad you liked it :)

[Abu Malik al-Maliki]

Maybe you live in a cave and your beloved Taliban have prevented you from being educated, but my guess is the same way scientists have calculated how many red blood cells you have, their lifespan, etc

[abu_ibrahim]

Maybe you live in a cave and your beloved Taliban have prevented you from being educated, but my guess is the same way scientists have calculated how many red blood cells you have, their lifespan, etc

When you say 15 million neurones for men, is that before or after they beat their heads during Ashura? I guess your neurones must be in the thousands as you are quite thick :D

[Magoo]

Maybe you live in a cave and your beloved Taliban have prevented you from being educated, but my guess is the same way scientists have calculated how many red blood cells you have, their lifespan, etc

take it easy bro, im sure the sis meant it in good humour

[Abu Malik al-Maliki]

Sorry sister I was in a bad mood and I unleashed myself on you.

When you say 15 million neurones for men, is that before or after they beat their heads during Ashura? I guess your neurones must be in the thousands as you are quite thick

Well 15 million neurones more than you after you kill innocent women and children on tubes.

P.S. The Shia jokes are getting old. I'm more Sunni than you'll ever be

[morbius]

It is a scientifc fact that men have 15 million neurones in the brain, while women only have 10 million.

Again, that means absolutely nothing. It's like saying that 486 is a better processor than Core 2 Duo because it's larger.
Some small birds with their tiny brains that weight just a few grams show much more intelligence than some mammals with huge brains. In general, it is not the size of the brain, but the ratio of the brain size and body mass that usually determines how intelligent the specie is, but there are exceptions to this rule. Women's brains are smaller than men's if measured absolutely, but larger in proportion to their body size.

It was thought for a while that lower average intelligence of blacks comes from their overall smaller brains, but this was disproved later. Chinese have smaller brains with less neurons than Europeans, but still have higher average IQ.

[JayshAllah]

Again, that means absolutely nothing. It's like saying that 486 is a better processor than Core 2 Duo because it's larger.
Some small birds with their tiny brains that weight just a few grams show much more intelligence than some mammals with huge brains. In general, it is not the size of the brain, but the ratio of the brain size and body mass that usually determines how intelligent the specie is, but there are exceptions to this rule. Women's brains are smaller than men's if measured absolutely, but larger in proportion to their body size.

It was thought for a while that lower average intelligence of blacks comes from their overall smaller brains, but this was disproved later. Chinese have smaller brains with less neurons than Europeans, but still have higher average IQ.

You seem to say that Chinese are superior in IQ to whites, and whites superior to blacks.

However, I think there is a very big problem with this assessment. If you took the average IQ of a Pakistanis in UK and then compared those results to the average IQ of Pakistanis living on the West Coast of the USA, you would find that those Pakistanis living in America would have much higher IQs than those in UK.

That's simply because the smart ones got VISAs to USA, while the less smart ones illegally immigrated to UK. So the sample populations are NOT representative of the total population.

Likewise, the Chinese that were tested were most likely those living in the West, who tend to be the elite from China...the ones who get scholarships to study in American universities. So you are comparing the ELITE of the Chinese with the AVERAGE American.

If you wanted to do a fair comparison between whites and Asians, then you would have to compare the average of both, or the elite of both, but not the elite of one and the average of the other.

With blacks, the IQ tests were most likely from African Americans, most of whom originate from the slave class of West and Central Africa. They were pre-selected for brute strength and in fact the smart ones were not chosen purposefully. Then after they were brought to America, then they were breeded for strength and smartness was attempted to be weeded out. Yes, this sounds politically incorrect but it's true.

My point is that the African Americans of today are NOT representative of blacks everywhere in the world...just like the Pakistanis in UK are NOT representative of Pakistanis everywhere. The Pakistanis in USA are mostly doctors, engineers, etc, whereas the Pakistanis in UK are unemployed, on welfare, etc. I'm always shocked when I see white British people looking down on Pakistanis as being dumb, when in fact here in the USA we are considered really smart. (Our average salary is about $10,000-12,000 higher than the average white American.)

I've met Africans from AFRICA and they are NOT like the African Americans...the ones I met from Africa did not have the sub-culture that discouraged education, etc.

If you took the white race, subjugated them to slavery, bred them, sold drugs in their communities, etc, then after thousands of years of doing all that you tested their IQs, then I think that you would find similarly low IQ tests.

I am not against saying that different populations have a different average intelligence. I think it's too naive to argue that. But what I am saying is that it is a result of the shared collective experience of that entire group of people, as opposed to anything intrinsic about the race itself. If a white subset was placed for thousands of years in the same circumstances as a black subset, then I think the differences between the two would be minimal.

[JayshAllah]

Women's brains are smaller than men's if measured absolutely, but larger in proportion to their body size.


False. Women's brains are SMALLER than men's brains EVEN AFTER adjusting for body size.

And your argument about an elephant vs a human is stupid. In proportion to the size of the body, the elephant brain is smaller than the human brain.

And for your further information, the elephant is one of the smartest of animals...although its brain is smaller than that of a human's when body size is accounted for, the elephant still has a higher brain size to body size ratio than most animals, and that is why it is one of the smartest of animals. The elephant is one of the only animals along with all apes (including ourselves), sperm whales and a few other creatures who has a large brain relative to body size...and all of these species I mentioned are considered smart.

Brain size without relation to body size is not generally that helpful. But when body size is factored in, then it does make a difference. Of course, it is not THAT straight-forward either, and exceptions abound. But what I am saying is that it is WRONG to say that brain size makes NO difference in intelligence.

Men have more neurons, so this may be one of the reasons that men are smarter than women. Some scientists discount this but NOT based on the reasons you gave. It has nothing to do with body size nor about your elephant example. Instead, it has to do with the fact that most neurons are involved in mundane tasks, and therefore having more of them won't necessarily affect the higher mental functions. Nonetheless, other scientists disagree and say that it would make a difference, and the evidence they bring forth is that of the changes that occur with old age (i.e. so-called dying brain cells...) That is a controversial matter as well though...

The honest truth is that neuroscience is one field that we know little about.

[Umm]

Brother JayshAllah, is there a reason you have to continuously reassure yourself regarding this topic?

[JayshAllah]

Brother JayshAllah, is there a reason you have to continuously reassure yourself regarding this topic?

I seek not to "reassure myself" but simply defend the Sunnah.

If the Prophet [s] had said that men and women are of equal intelligence, then I would be the first and foremost of those who would defend that statement. If the Prophet [s] said that women are more intelligent than men, then I would be at the forefront of those who say that.

Remember: our loyalty should be to our RELIGION not to our gender.

In regards to myself, I am superior in intelligence to most women AND men. Therefore, no reassurance needed.

[nobody]

In regards to myself, I am superior in intelligence to most women AND men. Therefore, no reassurance needed.

and how did you know that ? a serious question...wink.

may Allah increase your eeman, knowledge and 'intelligence'.

[Abu Maysara]

In regards to myself, I am superior in intelligence to most women AND men. Therefore, no reassurance needed.


A'dhdu billah from this kind of takabbur, that is unfortunately quite common for weak muslims living amongst mushrikeen, a big lack of adab which i seen a lot on this forum, from the top to the bottom, admins included.

[nobody]

A'dhdu billah from this kind of takabbur, that is unfortunately quite common for weak muslims living amongst mushrikeen, a big lack of adab which i seen a lot on this forum, from the top to the bottom, admins included.

salams

and how do you know that he lives amongst mushrikeen ?

[Magoo]

A'dhdu billah from this kind of takabbur, that is unfortunately quite common for weak muslims living amongst mushrikeen, a big lack of adab which i seen a lot on this forum, from the top to the bottom, admins included.

how do you know who the admins are??

[nomad]

Salamu alaykum,

I once saw programme on tv about the scientific differences about men and women, and about some sicko who convinced his 'lady friend' to change the gender of her new born son to a girl, by having him dress in girls dresses and having him have a sex change. They grew this boy up as a girl, and tried to give him dolls to play with etc. Anyway when he was about 15, and terribly terribly confused, they told him that actually he was a boy , not a girl, and he then decided to have plastic reconstructive surgery, and he got married and felt alot happier... anyway, what the programme was outlining was that there are actual physical, and mental differences in men and women from birth. They iscolated a part of the brain which in males is twice the size than that of the female, which controls some kind of functionality, (actually being female ive forgotten what that was exactly). Also, In allahs complete mercy, to us as females, he created hormone which is released shortly after childbirth, to help us forget more readily. Now about intellegence, of course you will find intelligent women, who far outweigh an intelligent man. How can you compare a shite man with an intelligent woman on quran and sunnah? So we are not discussing all men and women's intelligence here obviously.

salams nomad

[morbius]

You seem to say that Chinese are superior in IQ to whites, and whites superior to blacks.
Not superior, just with higher average IQ.
Likewise, the Chinese that were tested were most likely those living in the West, who tend to be the elite from China...the ones who get scholarships to study in American universities. So you are comparing the ELITE of the Chinese with the AVERAGE American.
IQ tests among Chinese in China show avarage intelligence quotient of population between 105 and 107. Tests of Chinese in America show the same results.
With blacks, the IQ tests were most likely from African Americans, most of whom originate from the slave class of West and Central Africa. They were pre-selected for brute strength and in fact the smart ones were not chosen purposefully. Then after they were brought to America, then they were breeded for strength and smartness was attempted to be weeded out. Yes, this sounds politically incorrect but it's true.
Actualy, blacks in America have higher avarage IQ than blacks in Africa.
This phenomenon is not yet explained, but it seems that excessive heat prevents brains of the young blacks from developing their full potential. In favor of this explanation speaks the fact that IQ among African blacks doesn't vary much from nation to nation, but varies great deal with distance from equator.
Highest IQ among blacks have those that live in Carebean, most probably due to gene mixing with whites.
I've met Africans from AFRICA and they are NOT like the African Americans...the ones I met from Africa did not have the sub-culture that discouraged education, etc.
I live in Athens which is full of blacks. You won't find any of that ghetto mentality among them, crime among black population here is almost non-existent.
They are nice people, but its not hard to notice that most of them are not very bright.
I am not against saying that different populations have a different average intelligence. I think it's too naive to argue that. But what I am saying is that it is a result of the shared collective experience of that entire group of people, as opposed to anything intrinsic about the race itself. If a white subset was placed for thousands of years in the same circumstances as a black subset, then I think the differences between the two would be minimal.
Intelligence is primarily genetic feature and environment doesn't seem to influence it much.
False. Women's brains are SMALLER than men's brains EVEN AFTER adjusting for body size.
I wonder where did you find this? It's simply not true.

If you are interested in the whole problematic of measuring brain size and neuron count, read this article from Discover.
http://discovermagazine.com/1993/oct/sexracebrainsand288/

I seek not to "reassure myself" but simply defend the Sunnah.

If the Prophet [s] had said that men and women are of equal intelligence, then I would be the first and foremost of those who would defend that statement. If the Prophet [s] said that women are more intelligent than men, then I would be at the forefront of those who say that.
This is basically the problem that makes any kind of scientific arguing with you pointless. Instead of using the proper scientific method of looking at the facts to discover the truth, you start convinced that you know the truth and than bend the facts in order to fit it.

Bottom line: IQ testing shows no difference in results between the sexes. One simple, undeniable fact. If you can find a study that shows otherwise, I would be happy to examine it.

[Abu Maysara]

how do you know who the admins are??


its not hard to figure it out, look for the posts that are being edited and then you see the name of the person that edited the post , but you never noticed that ?

[Magoo]

its not hard to figure it out, look for the posts that are being edited and then you see the name of the person that edited the post , but you never noticed that ?

i was never looking for it to be honest, anyway u r right, adab is an issue for modern day muslims, in our zeal and conviction that we are right upon every issue we sometimes forget our manners, may allah guide and forgive us all

[macb]

Fact! Men do have higher IQ scores and a higher Nuron count (according to this article)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=405056&in_page_id=1770

1993 is a long time ago, this is from 2006. I'm sure there are different studies that will contradict this one then another that will contradict that one. That is the nature of skewing statistics to fit your desires and goals. We muslims will continue to place our trust in Allaah who is All-Aware of His creation and has legislated accordingly to fit their attributes. Whether they be physical, biological or mental. While people like Morbius will continue to be like a leaf in the wind being blown which ever way the wind goes according to the latest study or findings that will be falsified or out dated after a few years. At which point a new view will be touted as correct then falsified again and on and on and on it goes. As is the nature of those who are misguided and follow their desires and opinions.

Michael

[saul]

I would like to thank each and everyone of you for wasting your time and energy in a worthless dabate with a racist, bigot, and non-Muslim who even doesn't know what his religion or lack thereof says about the status of women. The Roman church or church fathers not too long ago had a meeting to decide if women have souls. Imagine that.
I can't blame you morphius, borgus or whatever you call yourself; I just can't understand why all of you decided to waste so much time in this debate.

I only got one or two things to say: We (Muslims) believe 100% of what the Prother (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said and 100% of what the Quran states also. This belief is not tied to any current scientific knowledge, dabate or what just happens to be in fashion in a particular society or time. Our belief and knowledge is timeless and for all societies.

Secondly, throughout the last 1400 centuries, science, logic, and basic rational faculties has always proved the Quran and Hadith as being 100% correct. If you want the list of what am referring to let me know, and am sure I can briefly summarize a couple of encyclopedia for you.

For the rest of you brothers and sisters, please find a better use of your time please. This is not meant to offend you, but just a reminder or advise.

thank you

[Umm Ahmed]

Saul I dont think it's a waste of time , these arguments are brought up all the time away from the net ,with non muslims and sometimes even wth muslims seeking clarification , for their own doubts .

So whenever someone has to deal with this topic, then inshaAllaah they can read the above .

[morbius]

Fact! Men do have higher IQ scores and a higher Nuron count (according to this article)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=405056&in_page_id=1770

Oh man, I still can’t stop laughing! :)
This “research” is work of John Philippe Rushton, guy is a complete quack. Some of his previous “research” has shown that people with higher IQ have smaller penises. :) You’ll find more of his articles in “Penthouse” magazine than in the scientific papers.

Here in Greece IQ testing is conducted routinely in schools for about 30 years and results show no difference in average IQ between boys and girls. Girls on average even have slightly better grades than boys.

1993 is a long time ago, this is from 2006. I'm sure there are different studies that will contradict this one then another that will contradict that one. That is the nature of skewing statistics to fit your desires and goals. We muslims will continue to place our trust in Allaah who is All-Aware of His creation and has legislated accordingly to fit their attributes. Whether they be physical, biological or mental. While people like Morbius will continue to be like a leaf in the wind being blown which ever way the wind goes according to the latest study or findings that will be falsified or out dated after a few years. At which point a new view will be touted as correct then falsified again and on and on and on it goes. As is the nature of those who are misguided and follow their desires and opinions.
It is in human nature to desire certainty and security, I can’t blame you for wanting that. However, this world is world of uncertainty, the quicker you learn that, the faster you are going to start asking the right questions. You can either sit comfortably in the dark or you can get up and try to search for the light. I’m not going to think badly of you in either case.

[macb]

Oh man, I still can’t stop laughing! :)
This “research” is work of John Philippe Rushton, guy is a complete quack. Some of his previous “research” has shown that people with higher IQ have smaller penises. :) You’ll find more of his articles in “Penthouse” magazine than in the scientific papers.

Here in Greece IQ testing is conducted routinely in schools for about 30 years and results show no difference in average IQ between boys and girls. Girls on average even have slightly better grades than boys.


It is in human nature to desire certainty and security, I can’t blame you for wanting that. However, this world is world of uncertainty, the quicker you learn that, the faster you are going to start asking the right questions. You can either sit comfortably in the dark or you can get up and try to search for the light. I’m not going to think badly of you in either case.

No doubt he is a contraversial figure but it seems you missed this section:

"His work appears to confirm British research which showed men have bigger brains and higher IQs than women, which may explain why chess grandmasters and geniuses are more likely to be male.

The analyses of more than 20,000 verbal reasoning tests taken by university students from around the world revealed that women's IQs are up to five points lower than men's."

So he is not alone in his findings.

Personal attacks mean nothing. Has anybody actually refuted his findings? All an IQ test may or may not show is that the one sex is better at that particular test, which may be skewed in favour of specific abilities of either sex. It is a very grey area, what is intelligence, how do we define it? So this is why I did qualify that there are no doubt contradicting stuides on this issues.

Anyway here is another, slighty of the theme :

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/12/051223123116.htm

And another, with praise for women in some areas and praise for men in some too, actually says IQ tests are the same on average.

http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetContent.aspx?token=8482e079-8512-47c2-960c-a403c77a5e4c&chunkiid=92578

I suppose she is a nut case as well with no credibility ;- )

But like I said you will find contradicting studies and I was not really saying one is absolute and beyond contention. We place or trust in Allaah, the One who is All-Knowledgable, All-Aware of His creation and has Legislated according to their strengths and weaknessess whether you know about them or you do not. While you blow in the wind like that leaf ;- )

Oh, and by the way the increase in the size of the male brain is nothing to do with his increase in size over the female, his brain is actually proportianlly larger than his body size.

Michael

[morbius]

No doubt he is a contraversial figure but it seems you missed this section:

"His work appears to confirm British research which showed men have bigger brains and higher IQs than women, which may explain why chess grandmasters and geniuses are more likely to be male.

Chess is a game that relies heavily on spatial skills where men on average do a lot better than women. Women’s intellectual strengths lie primarily in verbal and interpersonal skills.
MENSA has twice more male that female members, but we shouldn’t forget that in many parts of the world it is still the case that genius level intelligence of a girl is much less likely to be noticed that the one of a boy. In Iran for instance, no matter how smart a girl is she can never become a doctor or engineer.

The analyses of more than 20,000 verbal reasoning tests taken by university students from around the world revealed that women's IQs are up to five points lower than men's."
Bah, tests on half a million Greek children showed no difference and now this guy finds difference and in the field where women have shown to be stronger, no less. I don’t buy it.

So he is not alone in his findings.

Personal attacks mean nothing. Has anybody actually refuted his findings?
Even if we, for the argument’s sake, agree that this guy is right, the difference in average IQ that he claims is measly 4 points. That’s as much as a difference in average IQ between French and Italians. I bet you can’t even guess which of those two nations has higher average IQ.

There is nothing in this study that would suggest that women have any noticeable intelligence impediment compared to men. Would say that French are so dumb that testimony of two French should count as testimony of one Italian?

And another, with praise for women in some areas and praise for men in some too, actually says IQ tests are the same on average.

http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetCo...chunkiid=92578
And WTH was I talking about all along?
Man do show advantages in some intellectual functions, women in others. On a well balanced IQ test they score the same.
Oh, and by the way the increase in the size of the male brain is nothing to do with his increase in size over the female, his brain is actually proportianlly larger than his body size.
And I’m still waiting for you to show me where you found this information. Or did you simply make it up?

[JayshAllah]

I wonder where did you find this?

I provided the link in my initial post. Looks like you didn't bother to read it.

It's simply not true.

It is very much true.

Bottom line: IQ testing shows no difference in results between the sexes. One simple, undeniable fact.

Not true. Look at the link in my initial post. But if you don't care to read it, then no point in discussing with you.

If you can find a study that shows otherwise, I would be happy to examine it.

You would be happy to examine it? I already provided you the link but you chose to ignore it.

Now, in reference to this:

The analyses of more than 20,000 verbal reasoning tests taken by university students from around the world revealed that women's IQs are up to five points lower than men's."

You discarded this based on this statement of yours:

Bah, tests on half a million Greek children showed no difference and now this guy finds difference and in the field where women have shown to be stronger, no less. I don’t buy it.

This once again shows that you did not read the article I linked to.

In that article you would have read quite clearly that the scientist said that the superiority in the IQ of males was masked by the fact that much of the testing had been done on children...and that females mature faster than males, so when you compare an 8 year old male with an 8 year old female, it is like comparing an 8 year old with a 10 year old. However, after a certain age, males catch up, and it has been seen that adult males outscore adult females.

This is similar to height. We all know that males are superior in height than females. And yet, if you examined children's heights, you would NOT find this, but rather you might even conclude that females are taller, if you just looked at children...If I remember my physiology correctly, it is due to estrogen, which causes girls to outgrow boys, but it is that same estrogen which makes the growth plates of the female fuse and stop the growth. In the end, the males outgrow the females. In other words, to see if men are taller or women, then you would have to look at adult data, and the data of children is useless...same is the case with intelligence.

Again, I urge you to read the article. And no, I am not going to go find the link. You go find it yourself. It's in my previous post in this thread. You should've read it instead of mouthing off nonsense.

[Abu Malik al-Maliki]

Jayshallah, did you not read my explanation for the hadith? Its not saying women are dumber but its referring to the fact 1 male witness = 2 female witnesses

[morbius]

I provided the link in my initial post. Looks like you didn't bother to read it.


OK, I’ve missed that link before. Let’s see what you have there.

Well, now I see that you also linked research of John High-IQ-gives-you-small-penis Rushton. :)

In that article you would have read quite clearly that the scientist said that the superiority in the IQ of males was masked by the fact that much of the testing had been done on children...and that females mature faster than males, so when you compare an 8 year old male with an 8 year old female, it is like comparing an 8 year old with a 10 year old. However, after a certain age, males catch up, and it has been seen that adult males outscore adult females.

This is similar to height. We all know that males are superior in height than females. And yet, if you examined children's heights, you would NOT find this, but rather you might even conclude that females are taller, if you just looked at children...If I remember my physiology correctly, it is due to estrogen, which causes girls to outgrow boys, but it is that same estrogen which makes the growth plates of the female fuse and stop the growth. In the end, the males outgrow the females. In other words, to see if men are taller or women, then you would have to look at adult data, and the data of children is useless...same is the case with intelligence.
Rushton starts from unconventional idea that intellectual growth of males, opposite to women, does not stop in puberty, but continues also for a few more years.
This however goes against thousands of psychological studies and testing that shows that intellectual development of brain stops and the age of 16, which is in psychology usually referred as Thompson’s age. Some new testing done in Sweden claims that Thompson’s age comes even earlier than that.
Anyway, at Thompson’s age brain reaches its full intellectual potential. We of course become smarter later in life as a result of accumulating experience, but pure raw calculation power of our brain remains the same. At age 16 difficulty scaling of IQ tests stops. The same IQ tests that are given to 16 year olds are also given to 40 year olds.

Now, Rushton believes that IQ’s of men and women are the same in high school age and that is why IQ testing then shows no difference. But, according to him, brains of man continue to increase in IQ for some more time and as a result testing in colleges show slight IQ advantage for men.
Now, for Rushton to be right IQ results of men would have to be higher later in life than when they are 16. However, as I said, numerous studies show that this is not the case.

Even if Rushton is somehow right, differences in average IQ’s between man and women that he claims are tiny and certainly do not justify your claims that “men are clearly more intelligent than women”.

[abu hafs]

http://forums.islamicawakening.com/showthread.php?p=54745#post54745

[Bassam Zawadi]

http://l.b5z.net/i/u/6053592/f/Are_women_deficient_in_intelligence.pdf

[Mazhara]

http://haqeeqat.org.pk/paker/13/6.jpg
http://haqeeqat.org.pk/paker/13/7.jpg

[Abu Maryam PK]

bismillah
mazhara, please translate it to englsh so everyone can understand what u r trying to say. why don't u ever quote ahadith and rely on verses of Quraan only?

[Mazhara]

Assalamo Alaikum,

Dear Abu Mariam,

In order to address the question whether or not woman have “defective intellect” which causes forgetfulness, I have quoted the Ayat of Surat Taha which attribute the act of first ever forgetfulness only to Sydena Adam {alahissalam} and not to his wife, i.e a woman.
The second argument from the Quran is that how could it be presumed or opined that women have lesser intellect than the man when both are the procreation of same pair of First Man and First Woman.
And to address the wrong perception of “lesser or defective intellect” of women, attention is invited to the fact that no distinction has been made between a man and woman regarding the criteria for going back to Al jannat.
Then the question has been addressed by inviting attention to the very purpose of creation of every thing, which has been disclosed like this:

{Allah created seven skies and earth} "for exposing/testing you; who amongst you people acts moderately/nicely/balanced" {Refer 11:07}

"We have made whatever is on earth as attraction in her so that We may expose/test them as to who amongst them performs moderate/balanced/nice acts" {Ref 18:07}

"Allah is The One Who created matter and life, for exposing/testing you people, as to who amongst you performs moderate/balanced/nice acts" {Refer 67:02}
There is nothing other than that what has been mentioned in these verses which human beings could perceive. All creation is for one purpose; who amongst us acts “Ahsan Amalan”.

And ten it has been explained as to what is an act and how it is performed? The Arabic word “Amalan”denotes only those acts which are performed by design and will. It can be performed only when data about it is saved in the memory. Retrieving that data and translating it into action is called "عمل". And the data in memory is called "علم" in Arabic. Both these words have similar particles ع , ل , م. The عمل could be termed as transposition of علم. When “Ahsan Amalan” is directly dependant upon “Aql” how could it be presumed that women are equipped with “defective intellect”?
And lastly attention is invited to the words of Allah where He said that human beings, both man and woman constitute humanity, is created in exacting balance, in best of the mould. When someone says that "women have lesser/defective "qal" intellect" is he not refuting the words of Allah about the creation of woman on "Ahsan taqweem"?

I quote Hadith Mubarak, where some point needs to be clarified and to make the point more lucid.
Please tell me the appropriate Hadith which may be included in this Article to bring home the point that there is no substance in the assertions of some that women are suffering from “lesser or defective intellect”. I would love to add that in the article. Thanks.