Muslim women marries non muslim men, it can actually work very well

[mika]

Hi,

I have started this thread inspired by the thread "Marriage with Saudi woman", where khan4canada teach all of us why mixed religious marriages are so "dangerous".

As I describe in me email, one of my very good friends is muslim, and his wife is protestant.
They got two very well educated children, where the son, after he grew up, decided himself to convert to Islam, and the daughter has stayed none muslim.
The family is very well functioning, and they have found a very good ballance where they respect each others believe, without the need of force or treats.

An other very good example, is Sister Francesca presenting herself as muslim in this forum under Introduce Yourself.
She also explain how she met a non muslim man that she loved, and she strongly advocated for her right as women, to marriage whoever she wanted, and that her marriage worked very good due to mutual tolerance.

Why is that success stories?, It is success stories because it is obvious that if men and women decide to marriage because they love each other, even that they have different religion, show to the world that all the horror stories of what will happened if for example a muslim girl marry a non muslim man, are simply just horror stories created to keep you young people in control.

A very bright example of such threat is for example expressed by khan4canada, where he tells everybody that ACCORDING TO ISLAM, THE MALE IS THE LEADER IN A RELATIONSHIP......, and due to that, if the male is non muslim, he may inhibit her from practicing her religion and if a muslim leaves his religion this is a disaster with no comparison.........

You see, khan4canada uses the good old threats and punishing trick, but luckyli we can see that his kind is disappearing, and we can see, especially in the west, that mixed marriages, based on love and respect, do work very well, so my message to all young muslim men and women is, married for love, also across religious barriers because this is the way we will build up a world of peace, instead a world where we build walls between religions.
:)

I know that you do not like this khan4canada, and others like you, but in realty this is what is going to happen more and more, starting in the western world when muslim girls starts to get more and more well educated, and sooner or later this will also spread to the rest of the muslim world.
This is not bad, this is good:) :)

BR
Mika

[IbnShaykh]

Khan for canada? You sniffing glue mate?


Besides mika weather you like it or not your opinion means little here, and if those muslims decide to follow your way then it harms our religion nothing but rather they harm themselves. Everyone will stand before Allaah and they will to, and on that day they will wish they were far far away from their spouse.

So keep barking like a dog and I will wait and we shall see who was the truthful in the end.

[suhail]

Dont feed the troll.

[mika]

SORRY... IbnShaykh, I copy/pasted a wrong name instead of yours, of course the name khan4canada shall be substituted with your name, IbnShaykh...you that felt a strong obligation to send a strong WARNING to all bad muslims that would consider marriage with a none muslim.

Well, the realty is that some muslims lives perfectly in mixed marriages, and they would properly say that YOU, IbnShaykh, interpreted the quran wrong, and that Allah would have no problems with mixed marriages.. so you see, your opinion only represent your own view and interpretation of the quran, and nothing else but that. Remember that!

To all of you muslims that consider marrying a non muslim, the warnings that you get from people like IbnShaykh is only based on humans that think they speak on behalf of Allah, but in reality, their words only represent what they think them self, is right or wrong..

Therefore, let’s have some mixed marriages between muslims and non muslims to brake down the old barriers between different religions.

BR
Mika

[Abandoned-Mind]

...............................

[abu hafs]

Mika,
There is no point going down this lane,
For us life is not limited to this worldly life you see, hence we have to answer and are responsible for our actions. Its the duty of the Muslim to follow the command of his creator.
Hence all of your terms like "working out" "perfect" "love" "respect" "tolerance" "success" all have different defenitions ...

[Umm Ahmed]

Mika got no attention there so thats why they have started this thread .

We cant go by what your saying regarding this family , you don't live with them 24/7 to read the situation , and we don't know this brothers Islaam.

[Hajjaj]

Hey Mika,
Lets smoke crack I think this is a great idea to promote understanding between religions. We will all just set around high all day. There by no need for war. All we need is love. What are you a hippie?

I love the part about "when Muslim women get more educated" I know Muslim women with PHDs and they are rolling around in the hay with non-muslim men, or this is not what you mean by education. What you really mean is when they accept your teaching.

[mika]

Hello again,

abu hafs wrote:
For us life is not limited to this worldly life you see, hence we have to answer and are responsible for our actions. Its the duty of the Muslim to follow the command of his creator.
Well abu hafs, remember that is just your personal interpretation of the quran, other muslims have an interpretation of the quran that says the mixed marriages were OK, so I mean, you interpretation does not make you more “muslim” than the other.

Hajjaj wrote:
Lets smoke crack I think this is a great idea to promote understanding between religions.
Crack is not good for you Hajjaj, stay away from that.

Then Hajjaj wrote:
I love the part about "when Muslim women get more educated" I know Muslim women with PHDs and they are rolling around in the hay with non-muslim men, or this is not what you mean by education. What you really mean is when they accept your teaching.
The positive trend we see here in the west is that when especially the muslim girls are becoming more and more well educated, and grow up together with non muslims, we see that many of them wants to brake old traditions so that they can decide themselves who they want to marry, and that include their own choice to decide how they want to interpret the quran, and who they want to marry, not depending if their future husband are muslim or non-muslim.

Is is a very good trend, and mixed marriages are becoming more and more normal, like it or not.

BR
Mika

[Umm Ahmed]

Is is a very good trend, and mixed marriages are becoming more and more normal, like it or not

What kind of mixed marriages ? if you mean muslim men marrying non muslim women thats a trend thats permissible in Islaam and yes thats normal as the man of the household will try his best to save his wife from hellfire if he truly loves her.
So don't push your like it or not on things that are already allowed.

Now as for interpreting the Quran, which verse are you referring to thats open to interpretation ?

[Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari]

Mika?

I believe that you've been fooled by western propaganda about the world of relationships and how they funtion. First of all the west has this notion of "Love at first sight" or finding ones "Soul Mate" this is all a bunch of fairy tales. Love is something earned and has its role in every different type of relationship in your life. Some people we love like brothers and sisters, others like mothers and fathers and others like spouses.

Now what type of love do we share with a spouse? A spouse is someone we've choosen to share our lives with, who we've been lead to believe that they would be dependable and stand by our side in time of need. Many people in the West when their young define love in a more physical sense, so a guy can see a girl, know nothing about her and say, "Oh I think I love her"... This isn't love but attraction, and the girl will define it the same way in the earlier stages of her life. But once things get real and you start working and raiseing children, people find that love really isn't the physical but the dependable. Many women have left their husbands that they love because they just couldn't depend on them to take care of them or be there when they need them.

Also many people want to have love without responability, so guys want just to "Date" without having any baggage. And some even mislead many poor girls by promiseing to marry them and saying that they love them, but in reality all they use them for is for short term physical gratification. Then after a year or so then they dump them and move on to the next victum.

Islam came to eradicate this and made the man have to be responisble for their spouse. Islam gives specifics on the role of the male for his spouse and the women for hers. But sense the males role is more demandable and they have in the relationship more power to influence some situations, Islam only allows a male to marry a non-muslim and not a female to marry a non-muslim.

Like it or not there is a difference between males and females. Maybee today sense allot of the non-muslim male are becomeing allot more feminane, some women find it hard to differ, the fact of the matter is there are still things in our cultule that are specifically for male or female. For example if a women punched a man allot of people wouldn't think to much of it, but if a man punched a women then people would take offense. You see there is still a difference.

So what your calling to now is basically exposeing our muslim sisters to the world of dateing non-muslim men, where the majority play this game of cat and mouse, dateing or marrying just for a few months or a year or so and then divorce and moving on. You calling to expose our women to men who don't have any religious boundaries on how to treat our muslim sisters and without religious pressure to take his responsibilities seriously towards his spouse. How many single women reside in the west today? How many young children had their father walk out on them and never come back?

Nope sorry this is a disgusting and unacceptable call your promoteing. And just one last note some scholars consider it disbelief if a women marries a non-muslim man. So don't take this thing lightly.

[IbnShaykh]

Bismillah

People like mika are fools in every sense of the word, and they are also among the most patronising. He believes he can tell muslims 'how it is' and also tell us that I as an individual are 'speaking' on Allaahs behalf. Yet we all know it is an ijma and something agreed on in our religion. Yet apprently I am speaking out of turn and he is correct.

How foolish is he? He believes he can speak for our religion not being versed in it at all. He as an outsider to the muslim community thinks he can tell us how it is.

The funny thing is mika it individuals such as yourself whom breed extremetism. Your the equivalent of patting us on the head and saying 'good muslim ill tell you how it is and you repeat after me'. Thus muslims begin to resent the non muslim and thus extremetism is built. If you wish to tackle extremetism close your mouth and actually listen and then dialogue. Stop with this I know better than you garbage as you dont have a clue. For example a non muslim marrying a muslim woman I don't think anyone here can honestly say has seen it. Yet you seem to think it is becoming common?

So your doing the opposite of what you wish if you are sincere. As you carry on provoking and winding up, you will see futher and further polersation. When you see the youth condoning terrorism and extremetism give yourself a pat on the back for being a contributing factor. Why you ask? Perhaps you think people such as myself are a contributing factor? The answer is no because I am saying what we all believe except a perhaps a tiny few who are wayward. But when they see people such as yourself obviously provoking and playing around with our values and religion, then they will feel resentment. We arn't stupid or uneducated, you can't just tell us 'how it is'. Rather your words will become seen as futher examples of this war and crusade on our values and ethics.

So if you wish to be positive then stop this, and actually listen and ask and contribute. Loose this attitude of I shall tell you. For example how many have objected to what I said? Did anyone brand me as extreme? No rather they treat you with disdain so take a lesson from that and don't insult our intelligence.

[William Wurkmun Fosterr]

I've heard it said that all marriages are mixed marriages.

[Brother_Mujahid]

Mika, why don't you learn some basic English grammatical rules before trying to lecture everyone with your Dr. Phil relationship nonsense.

[UmmAbdulMalikStorm]

So Mika, would you marry a practising Muslim woman? (Not that a practising sister would marry you but just outta interest since you think its the way forward)

[mika]

Hello again,

There seems to be lot of interrest in this issue, that’s good.:)

Umm Ahmed wrote:
Now as for interpreting the Quran, which verse are you referring to thats open to interpretation ?
The whole quran can be interpreted so it fit each individual person, that is exactly why we see Islam being practiced in different ways.
Nobody has ever been appointed as "school teacher" to the other muslims with the right to tell others what is the right and wrong interpretation of the quran.
This is not only valid for the quran, that is valid also for for example the cristian bible.

Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari wrote:
Love is something earned and has its role in every different type of relationship in your life. Some people we love like brothers and sisters, others like mothers and fathers and others like spouses.
Agree.


Now what type of love do we share with a spouse? A spouse is someone we've choosen to share our lives with, who we've been lead to believe that they would be dependable and stand by our side in time of need. Many people in the West when their young define love in a more physical sense, so a guy can see a girl, know nothing about her and say, "Oh I think I love her"... This isn't love but attraction, and the girl will define it the same way in the earlier stages of her life. But once things get real and you start working and raiseing children, people find that love really isn't the physical but the dependable. Many women have left their husbands that they love because they just couldn't depend on them to take care of them or be there when they need them.
Basically agree, and with regards to a guy saying "Oh I think I love her"... when h sees a beutifull girl, happens in the muslim world too, that is for sure.

Also many people want to have love without responability, so guys want just to "Date" without having any baggage. And some even mislead many poor girls by promiseing to marry them and saying that they love them, but in reality all they use them for is for short term physical gratification. Then after a year or so then they dump them and move on to the next victum.Weeeell, Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari, here you are really negative, you are proberly right this happen, but the argument can not be used to explain why muslim girls cannot marry non muslim men as such.

Islam came to eradicate this and made the man have to be responsible for their spouse. Islam gives specifics on the role of the male for his spouse and the women for hers. But sense the males role is more demandable and they have in the relationship more power to influence some situations, Islam only allows a male to marry a non-muslim and not a female to marry a non-muslim.
And then it went off the track, the rules in Islam is based on a 1300 year old book, proberly written by humen (proberly men..) and based on that, you want to make modern women in 2007 to belive that the man in a relationship have "power to influence " is simply rubbish....yes rubbish...and that is just one example why the quran cannot be used as guideline for who men and women can or cannot marry in 2007.

Like it or not there is a difference between males and females. Maybee today sense allot of the non-muslim male are becomeing allot more feminane, some women find it hard to differ, the fact of the matter is there are still things in our cultule that are specifically for male or female. For example if a women punched a man allot of people wouldn't think to much of it, but if a man punched a women then people would take offense. You see there is still a difference.
Yes agree, there is big difference between men and women, and that is the beauty about the whole thing, that is the excitement, the spice in life, that we shall enjoy in life. The fact that a man do not hit a women, where a women could hit a man is simply a unwritten social rule since men in general, but not always are physical stronger than a women, but that has nothing to do with Islam.

So what your calling to now is basically exposeing our muslim sisters to the world of dateing non-muslim men, where the majority play this game of cat and mouse, dateing or marrying just for a few months or a year or so and then divorce and moving on. You calling to expose our women to men who don't have any religious boundaries on how to treat our muslim sisters and without religious pressure to take his responsibilities seriously towards his spouse. How many single women reside in the west today? How many young children had their father walk out on them and never come back?
First of all, your statement "our muslim sisters" REALLY shows your desire for control over women, and it really shows the sad influence the ideology of Islam has on people.
I am absolutely sure that the muslim women can speak for them self, and protect themselves, they do not need the forced protection that you muslim men feel a divine duty to to put on them.

Nope sorry this is a disgusting and unacceptable call your promoteing. And just one last note some scholars consider it disbelief if a women marries a non-muslim man. So don't take this thing lightly.
Basically you guys are just plain old afraid of loosing the power you have had over women in the last 1300 years, and I understand that this is properly not nice to realize, but the plain true is that muslim women in the west are becoming more and more independent of the protective role of muslim men, and they will prefer a eqeal partner instead of a "master".
That’s why more and more muslim women will choose none muslim men.

IbnShaykh basically says that if people like me do not shu..up.. and accept old-time islamic traditions shall be carried on, else Islamic extremism will raise.
Well IbnShaykh, Islam is a dominator ideology, and you shall never bend down for dominator ideologies, even if you have to fight hard to eliminate dominator ideologies. So, your threats do not work, and remember, the more islamic violence we see, the harder life the muslims will get.

SO, the solution is, as I said before, we shall much more mixed marriages between muslims and none muslims, because this will create a much more equal society, with individual understanding and respect, and the Islamic extremists well have a very hard time.

UmmAbdulMalikStorm wrote:
So Mika, would you marry a practicing Muslim woman?
It all depends, first of all I should love her, and she should love me.
Secondly we should find out if we felt well in each others company, but if that was in place, and she did not felt the need to carry out all kind of strange rituals such as wearing burka, not willing to give hand to men, ect, then yes, of course I would marry a muslim women, the religion should not come between us..
The only problem here would properly be that if she had a family with the same view on mixed marriages that many people have here, they could easily make the life very hard to her. So you see, Islam creates the problems here.

Not that a practising sister would marry you

You never know UmmAbdulMalikStorm, you never know...;)

BR
Mika

[IbnShaykh]

IbnShaykh basically says that if people like me do not shu..up.. and accept old-time islamic traditions shall be carried on, else Islamic extremism will raise.
Well IbnShaykh, Islam is a dominator ideology, and you shall never bend down for dominator ideologies, even if you have to fight hard to eliminate dominator ideologies. So, your threats do not work, and remember, the more islamic violence we see, the harder life the muslims will get.

SO, the solution is, as I said before, we shall much more mixed marriages between muslims and none muslims, because this will create a much more equal society, with individual understanding and respect, and the Islamic extremists well have a very hard time.

I would give this more thought in my response but seen as you spell human 'humen' I don't think intelligence is your strong point. So what I will say is we have Allaah you have no Allaah so you wait and we shall wait and we shall see the outcome.

Muhammad Ibn Abdullah 1400 years ago said 'Islaam came to dominate and not be dominated' so mr. braincell keep on dreaming son ;)

[Hajjaj]

And then it went off the track, the rules in Islam is based on a 1300 year old book, proberly written by humen (proberly men..) and based on that, you want to make modern women in 2007 to belive that the man in a relationship have "power to influence " is simply rubbish....yes rubbish...and that is just one example why the quran cannot be used as guideline for who men and women can or cannot marry in 2007.


2-2 This is the Book (the Qur'ân), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaqûn [the pious believers of Islamic Monotheism who fear Allâh much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allâh much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)].

2-5 They are on (true) guidance from their Lord, and they are the successful.


Do these verses have an expiration date. There is no frame work for debate with this one. So why debate him. He is just her to sow doubt and confusion.

From the Sahih"Verily, Shaytan has given up hope that those who pray in the Arabian Peninsula, will worship him. But he will still stir trouble among them.”

He can not just come out and say what he wants you to do that is;abandon your religion, disbelieve in your Quran. So they come up with these plots.

Say (O Muhammad [sal-Allâhu 'alayhi wa sallam] to these Mushrikûn and Kâfirûn): "O Al-Kâfirûn (disbelievers in Allâh, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, and in Al-Qadar)!

I worship not that which you worship,

Nor will you worship that which I worship.

And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.

Nor will you worship that which I worship.

To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islâmic Monotheism).
(109.1-6)

[Umm Ahmed]

The whole quran can be interpreted so it fit each individual person, that is exactly why we see Islam being practiced in different ways.
Nobody has ever been appointed as "school teacher" to the other muslims with the right to tell others what is the right and wrong interpretation of the quran.
This is not only valid for the quran, that is valid also for for example the cristian bible.

One of your more ignorant claims Mika, but as a bystander looking on , and without asking why there are differences, your stance becomes biased. There has always been teachers whom we call scholars to guide us , when you say Muslims practice differently thats a wrong observation on your part , no practicing Muslim will not fast or not pray or say that they should not cover , but its the level of their faith that makes them seek out the easy way , just like the thousands of Christians who eat pork when the bible says they should not.
Christians have lost their faith in their teachers, because so many have actually tampered with the teachings of Jesus , as we can see by the many versions of the bible that are available today.

[Abu Ikrimah]

It all depends, first of all I should love her, and she should love me.

Mika

I wouldn't hold my breath, mate.

[mika]

Hi Again,

300 views and it is raising, good. Why is it good, it is good that as many as possible read these threads, because it opens up the eyes of especially young muslim women that are traditionally raised to believe that the man are the "master", and thereby they do not them self have anything to say with regards to choice of future husband, or other important directions in life, such as for example to be able to chose your own religion.

So, to the muslim girls, do not believe everything that especially the so-called imams or scholars tells you, remember that all this kind of people are men, you see, no women imams and scholars. These guys basically just want to keep you in control, as they have always done, and the way to do that, is simply to threaten you to submit and obey "Allahs words", which basically means: stay down, we men are supposed to control you!

Alright, let’s continue.

IbnShaykh critize my grammar and spelling, and he right, on the other hand I am pretty sure that you understand what I mean.:)

Hajjaj just comes up with a bunch of Islamic man made religious quran sentenses that can be intpreted in the way each individual wants to interpret it, so that is not a proofs anything.

Umm Ahmed writes:
There has always been teachers whom we call scholars to guide us , when you say Muslims practice differently that’s a wrong observation on your part , no practicing Muslim will not fast or not pray or say that they should not cover , but its the level of their faith that makes them seek out the easy way , just like the thousands of Christians who eat pork when the bible says they should not.
The scholars ot imams are nothing but a self announced religious police, that pretent Allah's left hand. The scolars simply wants to control the "normal" muslims by pretending that their interpretation of the quran is the right message. Do NOT believe these people, start to interpret the quran yourself, so it fit into your own life style and do not listen to the socalled scholars and the imams.

And then to the issue of loosing faith, basically this is just another excuse that hardcore muslims needs to use, when they see that Islam and other religions can be practiced in a lighter and more updated way.
They do not like that.
You could convert the sentence "loosing faith" with "adapting the Islam into the modern world of today", and that is exactly what Islam needs.

BR
Mika

[Umm Ahmed]

Are you saying we are not normal Mika ? tut tut thats the pot calling the kettle black. Again I ask you which verse is it you wish us to interpret ourselves ?

Here is a site that you can post the verse from www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

[Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari]

(Sound effect: Cracking my knuckles)

Okay lets get started!


300 views and it is raising, good. Why is it good, it is good that as many as possible read these threads, because it opens up the eyes of especially young muslim women that are traditionally raised to believe that the man are the "master", and thereby they do not them self have anything to say with regards to choice of future husband, or other important directions in life, such as for example to be able to chose your own religion.


Now first of all your kind of people in the west have been raised in the so called "Womens Independance" age. But in reality you have forced women that are like sheeps out in the world of wolves. Yes in the Middle East we are more protective of our women and adivse them to abstain from certain places and people, but this is because like we both agreed before, "Women and Men are differen't", where the women is the "Hunted" and the men are usually the "Hunters"...

I mean a man can't get rapped by a women, but a women can get rapped by a man. If you where to go and look at most sociable areas it is usually the man that has to pick up on the women. So we see here that usually males take an offensive role in persute of women and women defensive, so because of that women have to protect themselves from unwanted attention. If a women if married and has a husband then she has no reason to have to flaunt her stuff around the streets attracting people to something that they can't have.

I mean if you had a homeless shelter with starveing people inside and you walked in with a pizza talking about, "No one can have any" everyone would be pissed. And if their hungry enough will take a slice by force.


So, to the muslim girls, do not believe everything that especially the so-called imams or scholars tells you, remember that all this kind of people are men, you see, no women imams and scholars. These guys basically just want to keep you in control, as they have always done, and the way to do that, is simply to threaten you to submit and obey "Allahs words", which basically means: stay down, we men are supposed to control you!


Its funny that you think that all muslim women are oppressed and that they are forced to do everything in islam. Many arabi countries don't force the Hijab (covering) but women after an age start to see and understand the wisdon in covering themselves, after being herrassed in the streets over and over by young men trying to hit on them. Also the Hijab brings a liberation to the women from having to keep a constant almost impossible to maintain figure. Many women in the west commit suicide because their apperance, or others indanger their lives and spends tens of thousands of dollors to try to have the perfect body, just to feel comfortable walking the streets.

The fact of the matter is that you say that we inslave our women, because we advise them to whats in their interrests when facing the outside world. But whats better a women that lives a life at home with her children, covers only when she goes outside amongst male strangers, or a women that has to strip in a stip club to sick horny westerners just to make ends meat. Wow thats liberation. Or how about Germany where women are prostatutes, they get health benifits and everything, this is the end of the road of your so called "Womens Liberation." The so-called Modern world today is full of strip clubs, Hooters bars, and prostitution rings, and on top of that the so-called modern west has created a trend of dateing that is similar to prostitution, just you don't pay for the service. So guys and girls have hundreds even thousands of one night stands before they even reach the age of 30. And allot of these poor girls, every time they date a guy, they have in the bottom of their heart the wish to marry him, to convince to love her, and every time she gets her heart broken by some selfish horney guy that plays games with womens emotions, untill the women becomes emotionally cold and looses the ability to love or trust any man and some either choose to continue the dateing lifestyle or others even turn to worse things like homosexuality to fill their void.

And even Men on the other side of the table, suffer great phycological tourture, because of jealousy and doubts. You society isn't built to have a healthy relationship with another women. Its either you go full out and not care or you live a life of heart ache and suffering because your worried your spouse might sleep with someone else. I remember reading about one guy in the west that was so perinoid that he handcuffed his wife to the bed when he left for work. Other men have killed their wives because of suspicion, and many other domestic crimes and murders have happened just because the society doesn't create barriers of relationships with the opposite sexes to ease the nerves of their spouses.

And just like when the man tells the women that she shouldn't have relationships with men outside her family. This works both ways for a male and female, because the males in the society also don't speak to women they don't know and this releaves the suspicion the women might have aswell. I don't know if your married or not, but trust me to think your wife is cheating on your is something that can drive a person mad. Love does crazy things to people and sometimes people don't think clearly when this subject arrises. So God made a law for the people to act in a society that wouldn't create unneccisary conflicts that are inevidable. Like it or not the Muslim community has answers that the west doesn't to some of the biggest problems today, if you'd just come down off your pedastoole and try to understand the reasons behind some things, maybee you'll learn something, instead of just trying to "Inlighten" people with something that will do more damage than good.

[Al_Zahir_Baybars]

This has to be one of the most insane things I have ever heard, In Islam males do not act as a master of a marital relationship, if anything the westerners who grasp their male-female relationship from their forefathers faith (Christianity) is far more biased to women, just go back to the beginning, Eve tempted Adam, they say, Eve was more responsible they say, yet in Islam we are told they were equally responsible, they shared equally the punishment. These things carry on with time, they don't die easy. The western trend, in just about anything is almost always bad and negative, tell me in what Islamically runned society did we ever have strip clubs, brothels, and prostitution, yet in the west these things have always existed. Which I ask you Mika is more fair to women, to have them sexually exploited and seen as playthings or to be viewed with love and respectin the honoured position of a family unit. I live in the west as well Mika and the few, the very few times that I have seen this trend you speak of as very good usually results in the girl being tossed aside and being left a broken individual who begins to persue higher levels of permiscuity and we all know where that ends up.

The Western societies social concepts are flawed and faulty, they put women in the gutter, I personally am opposed to your Idea but by no means would I ever treat my spouse as a slave as you suggest, which I know is the case for many brothers here as well, your propaganda is wasted on us.

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

Do not feed the trolltoo right.. mika is just a bigoted attention-seeker, he himself admits that he wouldn't marry a practising Muslim woman... talk about hypocrisy.. :)

[mika]

Hello again,

Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari worte....a lot:
Now first of all your kind of people in the west have been raised in the so called "Womens Independance" age. But in reality you have forced women that are like sheeps out in the world of wolves.
You do not really get it do you Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari, do you?.....the reason the women in the West claimed freedom was because they felt entraped and suppresed, because many western men treated women suppressive just like many muslim men treat muslim women today.
The western women broke free them self, believe me, we did not push them, they fought them self for their freedom.
Now it is time for you muslim girls to show the muslim men that you too, want to be free to make your own choices in life, including free choice of what religion you want to believe in, and free choice who to merry, not depending if your future husband are muslim or non muslim.

Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari the rest of your input is the usual naive black and white comparison defending how nice a real islamic scoiaty is compared with the bad western society with strip clubs and prostitutes every ware.
The plain fact is that the general movement of people goes FROM the muslim world TO the west, and not the other way, that would properly not have been the case if the west only consisted of brothels, prostitutes and strip clubs.

By the way, if the west treated the western women so bad as you describe, why don't we so millions of "poor" western women moving to the islam world to be protected by divine Islam, and all the brave muslim men???

Let me tell you why...because western women generally consider Islam as a BIG TIME sexist suppresive oldtime ideology, that only brings burkas and submission into their life.;)

So Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari, do not try to convince female muslim women that Islam brings them protection, that’s is simply just rubbish, instead what Islam brings to muslim women is the message:

Since you are a women, you are a second rank citzen, with only limited rights.
Obey the man and Allah else you will be punished!

Al_Zahir_Baybars wrote:
The western trend, in just about anything is almost always bad and negative, tell me in what Islamic ally society did we ever have strip clubs, brothels, and prostitution, yet in the west these things have always existed.
And here we go again..strip clubs and prostitutes, I really think that you got something completely screwed up, is that really what frighten you most about the west, a few strip joints, and a prostitute..
Come on, the Islamic world fights with regular islamic suicide bombers, extreme poverty, forced marriages of women against the woman’s will, hard punishment of rape VICTEMS, and a society that due to Islam has not succeeded at all to build up an industrial sector that can not at all, compete with the west. I could carry on, but the base line is, compared to the enormous problems the Islamic world face, I can live with a few strip joints and a couple of prostitutes, and it seems that a lot of muslims agree with me here since muslims stay in the west, and do not want to go back to their Islamic homeland..


BR
Mika

[Al_Zahir_Baybars]

Let's clear something up here, western culture is not the same as western technological progress. Western culture today is not the same culture responsible for creating all the progress you see in the west is due to a prior culture where they were pretty much as strict in their lifestyles as Muslims, their cities were clean and their problems were far fewer, socially, medically, morally, and poltically. When they started to preach this loose liberalism you admire so much they began their problems, you don't mind strip clubs and prostitutes ok fine, but they are counter-productive to have such ideoligies spread amongst the "Islamic states" as you call them in their present state would do pretty much the opposite effect of pulling themselves out of the hole.

Next, you call them Islamic States, they are not Islamically runned nations, if you took the time to swift through the politics forum you'd know that no one here views any of the muslim majority nations as islamically ruled, if you want an example of an Islamically ruled state look to history, the Ottomans, Andalus, and Egypt at times when UNDER ISLAMIC RULE they were 200 years ahead of Europe in all scientific fields, cleaned and washed themselves where the Europeans prided themselves on not washing themselves, where in Europe people were being executed and excommunicated for researching science and math, and do bare in mind that the west today would not be where it is if it weren't for the Islamic golden era and people like Al-Jazari who invented many things (like the crankshaft) still in use today. The biggest reason the "Islamic States" are the way they are is because of the invasion of western political concepts which have corrupted many people.

..heh, funny how with me around things always go political.

[Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari]

Fact check, there are many women who do come into Islam and move to the Gulf countries. There are many women who see the marrage in Islam and respect it allot, especially those women who've been played over and over again like a peice of meat by your kind.

You talk about muslims moving to your country like they love your moral values, they only go there for finacial assistance but you still hear muslims complian of how filthy you society is. I myself am one of those who've moved out of the States to leave such a disgusting lifestyle thats seems to be the norm. Its like everywhere you go there its some kind of Marti Gras, where sick drunks slobber over women making things like flashing for beads a cultural norm thats publically accepted.

You say freedom of choice? If you study phycology you'd find out that sometimes peoples choices and opinions are a direct result of what the society deems acceptable and promotes. YOUR people promote filth, utter garbage. You've tooken the women and made her into nother more than another peice of property, like a car or a house. The women has lost all honer in your society. I mean even when we look at your women leaders in the back of all our minds we thinking, "What was this girl like in college?" was one of "THOSE" type of girls.

Where in the Islamic Society the women is honored, she has self respect, shes not considered a slut, but a Mother. Not a piece of meat to prop up on your videos to "Shake their're Thangs" or to serve men in resturants wearing sleazy outfits.

The fact of the matter is your liberation is nothing more that a smoke screen to get women to put down their guard, leave the protection of those who love them( and this isn't always the husband, it could be the parents aswell) and then throw her out alone is a society to fend for herself and force her to work in a labor force where the majority of jobs are in areas where they serve as "Eye Candy", be it a secratary, a waitress, a flight attendant, a front desk clear etc etc. All these jobs choose these women for the sole purpose of giving the customer something nice to look at. This is a demeaning status to put women in. I'm all for women teachers and Docters etc. but at the same time they should be respected and work with people that aren't going to demean them.

I remember watching some Muslim Sitcom out of Canada and this muslim sister was a waitress and this non-muslim guy was like, "Hey why don't you show some cleavage or something." I know that this was a T.V. show, but this is the reality of the mindset of non-muslim men. Their perverts beyond all bounds and want their Baywatch beach girls where ever they go.

As for the rest you said, Whatever your a non-muslim and all you've received is western propaganda media. Our women are happly married with children and husbands who provide for them finacially and emotionally, many women in the West who are dieing to find a man would be very envious of what our sisters have. Because at the end of the day it doesn't matter how much money you got, if you don't have someone to share it with you and really be faithful to you than you have nothing.

[mika]

Hello again,

I think it is time to bring this thread back on the original track which is about muslim womens marriage to non muslim men.

What we can see here is that since the man in the family is the pretended to be the LEADER in the family, it is EXTREMELY dangerous for a muslim women to marry a non muslim man, simply he could influence her to become "less muslim", or as you would say, she could loose faith.......

May I ask you muslim men....what on earth is going on inside your heads...especially you muslim guys that lives in the western world?

First of all, IF islam was such a wonderful and strong ideology AND Allah really ruled, how on earth can you be so afraid that "your" women would loose their faith, I mean, if this actually happened in a mixed marriage, maybe the problem was Islam, and not her husband..

In other words, you muslim men justify your role as LEADERS....in the marriage, because you feel that you can justify that role from Islam, but frankly guys, you live in a dream world, where you use a 1300 year old book to tell women in 2007 that they are not strong enough to withstand the baaad influence from the terrible non muslim men.

Muslim girls that reads this...do you start to see how crazy this is....basically you are told that you are weak persons that will loose your faith in Islam, if you marry a non muslim man, the only thing that will save you is the brave muslim man...:confused:
In other words, you are told that basically you are not able to control your own life, you need a brave muslim man to direct you and keep you on track....remember girls, we are in 2007, you get hopefully good educations...maybe you are even allowed to have a good job, but still...you are told that you are weak and could loose your faith if you merry a non muslim man....

Can you see it...I mean if Allah were so mighty, and Islam were so beautiful, is´nt it strange that you need a life long guard to protect you against drifting away from Islam......could it be that the realty is that the hole thing is that the muslim men wants to keep you in control...?

Also to the muslim women and girls, have you thought about that every time muslim men needs to describe how bad the West is, they always talk about the "terrible" prostitutes, strip bars, and brothels they have seen or heard about in the west.

Ask yourself girls...how come that all these muslim men are so well informed about all these strip clups, prostitutes, and brothels.....feel free to guess...;)

BR
Mika

[Umm]

Ask yourself girls...how come that all these muslim men are so well informed about all these strip clups, prostitutes, and brothels.....feel free to guess...;)

Mika, whist I enjoy your posts, that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever read.

We are all aware of what these terms mean, without ever having visited a brothel, or met a prostitute. I could give you a lecture on the dangers of sticking your head in an oven - although I must confess I have never tried it myself first.

[Umm Ahmed]

I think it is time to bring this thread back on the original track which is about muslim womens marriage to non muslim men.

Not able to answer mika? that should tell you that you that Islaam is right , but its your stubbornness that is stopping you from accepting Islaam.

In most marriages the man is the bread winner, and he is the one with the upper hand, so Mika he becomes the boss.
If a Muslim woman is fasting during the month of Ramadan and her husband being a non Muslim wants his congenial rights, how does she calm him and tell him to fear Allaah , anyway these are things you wont understand Mika .

[WM]

"You never know UmmAbdulMalikStorm, you never know... "

Someone please bring me a bucket

[ibn 'abd al-jabbaar]

isn't it interesting how mika tries changing the topic when people question him about his hypocrisy? :D

how come that all these muslim men are so well informed about all these strip clups, prostitutes, and brothels.....feel free to guess...

i think this comment exposes to everyone mika's shocking lack of intellect, as well as his extremely bigoted mindset.

[Al_Zahir_Baybars]

"I think it is time to bring this thread back on the original track which is about muslim womens marriage to non muslim men."

Ok so you have no problem with what myself and Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari have said.


"What we can see here is that since the man in the family is the pretended to be the LEADER in the family, it is EXTREMELY dangerous for a muslim women to marry a non muslim man, simply he could influence her to become "less muslim", or as you would say, she could loose faith......."

Ok nature and history will clearly show you that the man has certain attributes that the woman does not, testosterone hormone for instance, which exists primarily as a hormone to induce the male to be the protective unit of his family, the idea that the man is the leader derives from his role as the protector in the early times. The desire for the man to protect their family is a noble attribute, the thing in the west is that everyone is looking for wys to defy nautre hence sex changes and hermaphrodite become the pride of the west and even "heroes" its funny but also dangerous. Your Idea of women leaving tradition and ignoring the protection of their family derives from an immoral attribute of man of the early years to take what he wants no matter where, what or who its is. The danger of a muslim female marrying a non muslim male is essentially related to a total loss of culture and identity, Islam gives an honoured position to women where the son must love his mother first and foremost in his family 4 times more so than his father so the discrimination you are viewing is actually a result of the problems in your own society which you can no longer cope with so you are taught to make your situation the norm all over the world so you become blind to the problem. The next thing is for a Muslim woman to marry a non muslim man would imply that she did not understand her faith and therefore would only be muslim in name, and the only way this could happen is if the ideas of propaganda perpetrated by your beloved western media and pop culture which is to be found in almost anywhere outside the muslim household infects their minds at a young age. Truly though what kind of life is their for a woman outside of Islam in the west? I live here, the divorce rate is high, family unity is no longer valued, the lifestyle between men and women has become much like that of the cats and dogs that roam the streets, and the end result is that the next gen will look fo something worst cause in the west, bad is cool.


"First of all, IF islam was such a wonderful and strong ideology AND Allah really ruled, how on earth can you be so afraid that "your" women would loose their faith, I mean, if this actually happened in a mixed marriage, maybe the problem was Islam, and not her husband..

In other words, you muslim men justify your role as LEADERS....in the marriage, because you feel that you can justify that role from Islam, but frankly guys, you live in a dream world, where you use a 1300 year old book to tell women in 2007 that they are not strong enough to withstand the baaad influence from the terrible non muslim men."

Well the best answers to that are in the 1400 year old book, its too bad that your intellectual capacity doesn't sem to allow you to read it as it is and you end up seeing some interpretation which no one esle has seen in over 1400years.

'Also to the muslim women and girls, have you thought about that every time muslim men needs to describe how bad the West is, they always talk about the "terrible" prostitutes, strip bars, and brothels they have seen or heard about in the west.

Ask yourself girls...how come that all these muslim men are so well informed about all these strip clups, prostitutes, and brothels.....feel free to guess... "

If this is your line of arguement then how do you know about what happens in the muslim household or family unit?, you only accept what fox news and the like throws at you regarding muslims.

This all comes back to the one thing, in the West its cool to be bad, wear a black leather coat and ride a harley davidson, carry a shotgun and threaten people ..oooo my he's bad and therefore cool, what a crock.

sry to everyone esle about not putting his lines in proper quote format, dunno how to.

[IbnShaykh]

Bismillah

Alhamdulliah that our women have the brains the values and Imaan in our glorious religion to ignore these false calls. Mashallah our women are worth a thousand of that which mika considers to be the standard. If I can take one positive thing away from this thread it's that, we see mashallah many muslim women turning away from that which mika calls to. He essentially is the western call personfied (as well as a retard) and yet we see so many muslim women especially among the youth turning away from this world and the western culture mashallah.

My respect to all the muslim women who responded to this dog, may Allaah keep us firm as well as our daughters.

And I love the hypocrisy as well he says 'girls' lol as if he is speaking to cheerleaders and they says why do you think your men are familiar etc etc. Yes mika but whose men established them? Whose men make porn films? Whose men sleep around and call women 'bitches'. Oh yes indeed im sure her life would be peachy with you people.

[mika]

Hi Again,

We got quit a lot of readers of this thread, it seems that the issue of muslim wome marrying non muslim men, or muslim men marrying non muslim women generates lots of interest, that is good.

OK, lets see what we got:

Umm wrote:
We are all aware of what these terms mean, without ever having visited a brothel, or met a prostitute. I could give you a lecture on the dangers of sticking your head in an oven - although I must confess I have never tried it myself first.
Well Umm, you are properly right, the thing is just that it is these terrible things that are always brought up especially by muslim men as the horror scenario from the west.
One could easily get this impression that many of these muslim men have studied this western phenomenon called prostitution and strip clubs, VERY DETAILED.....since they are so "afraid" of them.....if you see what I mean..;)


Umm Ahmed wrote:
In most marriages the man is the bread winner, and he is the one with the upper hand, so Mika he becomes the boss.
No he don't Umm Ahmed!

Then Umm Ahmed wrote:
If a Muslim woman is fasting during the month of Ramadan and her husband being a non Muslim wants his congenial rights, how does she calm him and tell him to fear Allaah , anyway these are things you wont understand Mika .
I think you better define "congenial rights" to the readers here....
And calm him down....hmm.....and "fear Allah".
Umm Ahm, do you start to see yourself how twisted Islam is, I mean, "fear Allah"...why on earth should someone fear Allah?, is that really the beauty of Islam, that you shall live your life in fear....poor people..
Young muslims, especially the muslim girls, do you start to see that some thing is completely wrong here?

Then we got Al_Zahir_Baybars:
Ok nature and history will clearly show you that the man has certain attributes that the woman does not, testosterone hormone for instance, which exists primarily as a hormone to induce the male to be the protective unit of his family, the idea that the man is the leader derives from his role as the protector in the early times. The desire for the man to protect their family is a noble attribute, the thing in the west is that everyone is looking for wys to defy nature hence sex changes and hermaphrodite become the pride of the west and even "heroes" its funny but also dangerous.
NO...Al_Zahir_Baybars, all this is only wishful thinking in the mind of many muslim men, and justified by "that is because Allah tells us to do so".
The problem is that due to your islamic back ground, you are told from child that since you are a man, you are the "leader" in the family, and that is a very convenient position for you men. I understand fully why you guys are so afraid of having this position undermined.
In the meantime you arguments are based on extremely old traditions, that has been kept alive by means of Islam, and there is no doubt, that the muslim mans role as the "leader" in the family will be heavily challenge especially in the western world when we see more and more mixed marriages with for example a muslim women and a non muslim man.

Your Idea of women leaving tradition and ignoring the protection of their family derives from an immoral attribute of man of the early years to take what he wants no matter where, what or who its is.
Why should the women ignore the protection of the family, why can the protection of the family not be a combined task for both the man and the women?
By the way, what protection is it that you focus so much on?


The danger of a muslim female marrying a non muslim male is essentially related to a total loss of culture and identity, Islam gives an honored position to women where the son must love his mother first and foremost in his family 4 times more so than his father so the discrimination you are viewing is actually a result of the problems in your own society which you can no longer cope with so you are taught to make your situation the norm all over the world so you become blind to the problem.
There is NO danger for a muslim female marrying a non muslim!
Lets say a muslim women married a non muslim, and lets say that she found out that she wanted to practice Islam in a way the SHE felt was the right for her, why should anybody interfere with that?
Al_Zahir_Baybars, how that muslim women wanted to practice Islam is HER decision, not yours, not the local Iman, not the family, but only hers....
When you accept that, mixed marriages becomes no problem.

The next thing is for a Muslim woman to marry a non muslim man would imply that she did not understand her faith and therefore would only be muslim in name, and the only way this could happen is if the ideas of propaganda perpetrated by your beloved western media and pop culture which is to be found in almost anywhere outside the muslim household infects their minds at a young age.
Al_Zahir_Baybars, nobody gave you the right to judge this women and tell her what to do!, accept that other people interpretate the quran different from you.

Well the best answers to that are in the 1400 year old book, its too bad that your intellectual capacity doesn't seem to allow you to read it as it is and you end up seeing some interpretation which no one else has seen in over 1400years.
It is not necessary to read the quran, just look at the muslim world, poverty, total lack of innovative thinking, big time religious fighting and wars, you guys can't even get along within your own religion (Sunnis/Shiites), and a huge flow of people AWAY from the muslim world TO the west.
So, it is obvious that Islam and Allah really got a serious image problem these days.

IbnShaykh wrote:
Alhamdulliah that our women have the brains the values and Imaan in our glorious religion to ignore these false calls.
You see muslim women and girls, IbnShaykh got a little worried here that you should start to ask difficult questions.
I would recommend you to believe in yourself, and especially not listen too much to the Imams, instead start to consider how Islam can be adjusted to fit into 2007 and work together with the western world in a peaceful way.
Marriage between muslims and non muslims is a great step ahead.:)

My respect to all the muslim women who responded to this dog, may Allah keep us firm as well as our daughters
Muslim women and girls, IbnShaykh do not respect you at all, he are just extremely afraid to loose the control over you, and he is using the good old trick by telling you that if you do not "behave" Allah will punish you.

Muslim women and girls, do not listen to all these threats from people like Al_Zahir_Baybars, IbnShaykh and all the other muslim men in here, they feel that they have the right to tell you how you shall interpretate the quran, but do they really have the right to do that?

NO THEY DO NOT…….

BT
Mika

[Umm Ahmed]

think you better define "congenial rights" to the readers here....
And calm him down....hmm.....and "fear Allah".
Umm Ahm, do you start to see yourself how twisted Islam is, I mean, "fear Allah"...why on earth should someone fear Allah?, is that really the beauty of Islam, that you shall live your life in fear....poor people..
Young muslims, especially the muslim girls, do you start to see that some thing is completely wrong here?

What stops you from fornicating in the street ?
( I am assuming that your not one of the many who actually do that )
Fear of what people might think or say ?

What stops you from stealing ? is it not sentence you will recieve when caught ?
As muslims we fear Allaah for things that have punishments .

Why would you wish me to define congenial rights ? get a dictionary if your having trouble with the meaning.

Islaam is not twisted , its from the creator to his creation. The only thing thats twisted is your warped way of thinking you know anything about Islaam or muslims. In fact you seem to think you are a god.

[IbnShaykh]

Hi Again,

We got quit a lot of readers of this thread, it seems that the issue of muslim wome marrying non muslim men, or muslim men marrying non muslim women generates lots of interest, that is good.

OK, lets see what we got:

Umm wrote:

Well Umm, you are properly right, the thing is just that it is these terrible things that are always brought up especially by muslim men as the horror scenario from the west.
One could easily get this impression that many of these muslim men have studied this western phenomenon called prostitution and strip clubs, VERY DETAILED.....since they are so "afraid" of them.....if you see what I mean..;)


Umm Ahmed wrote:

No he don't Umm Ahmed!

Then Umm Ahmed wrote:

I think you better define "congenial rights" to the readers here....
And calm him down....hmm.....and "fear Allah".
Umm Ahm, do you start to see yourself how twisted Islam is, I mean, "fear Allah"...why on earth should someone fear Allah?, is that really the beauty of Islam, that you shall live your life in fear....poor people..
Young muslims, especially the muslim girls, do you start to see that some thing is completely wrong here?

Then we got Al_Zahir_Baybars:

NO...Al_Zahir_Baybars, all this is only wishful thinking in the mind of many muslim men, and justified by "that is because Allah tells us to do so".
The problem is that due to your islamic back ground, you are told from child that since you are a man, you are the "leader" in the family, and that is a very convenient position for you men. I understand fully why you guys are so afraid of having this position undermined.
In the meantime you arguments are based on extremely old traditions, that has been kept alive by means of Islam, and there is no doubt, that the muslim mans role as the "leader" in the family will be heavily challenge especially in the western world when we see more and more mixed marriages with for example a muslim women and a non muslim man.


Why should the women ignore the protection of the family, why can the protection of the family not be a combined task for both the man and the women?
By the way, what protection is it that you focus so much on?



There is NO danger for a muslim female marrying a non muslim!
Lets say a muslim women married a non muslim, and lets say that she found out that she wanted to practice Islam in a way the SHE felt was the right for her, why should anybody interfere with that?
Al_Zahir_Baybars, how that muslim women wanted to practice Islam is HER decision, not yours, not the local Iman, not the family, but only hers....
When you accept that, mixed marriages becomes no problem.


Al_Zahir_Baybars, nobody gave you the right to judge this women and tell her what to do!, accept that other people interpretate the quran different from you.


It is not necessary to read the quran, just look at the muslim world, poverty, total lack of innovative thinking, big time religious fighting and wars, you guys can't even get along within your own religion (Sunnis/Shiites), and a huge flow of people AWAY from the muslim world TO the west.
So, it is obvious that Islam and Allah really got a serious image problem these days.

IbnShaykh wrote:

You see muslim women and girls, IbnShaykh got a little worried here that you should start to ask difficult questions.
I would recommend you to believe in yourself, and especially not listen too much to the Imams, instead start to consider how Islam can be adjusted to fit into 2007 and work together with the western world in a peaceful way.
Marriage between muslims and non muslims is a great step ahead.:)


Muslim women and girls, IbnShaykh do not respect you at all, he are just extremely afraid to loose the control over you, and he is using the good old trick by telling you that if you do not "behave" Allah will punish you.

Muslim women and girls, do not listen to all these threats from people like Al_Zahir_Baybars, IbnShaykh and all the other muslim men in here, they feel that they have the right to tell you how you shall interpretate the quran, but do they really have the right to do that?

NO THEY DO NOT…….

BT
Mika


May Allah let me see you burn in the hellfire ameen. :)

[Umm]

Muslim women and girls, do not listen to all these threats from people like Al_Zahir_Baybars, IbnShaykh and all the other muslim men in here, they feel that they have the right to tell you how you shall interpretate the quran, but do they really have the right to do that?

Firstly, they are not threatening us.
Secondly, we will listen to our brothers with whom we share the same shahaadah (testimony of faith), morals, etc than to a clear enemy of Islaam and common decency.

Mika, just out of curiousity, what do you think of homosexuality? Do you think it's a sin?

[Al_Zahir_Baybars]

May Allah let me see you burn in the hellfire ameen.


LOL,

well I think his ideas will bite him back given time, I personally will try not to respond to him anymore. Honestly, I think he's a dummy.

[abu hafs]

Mika, just out of curiousity, what do you think of homosexuality? Do you think it's a sin?

Mika's philosophy justifies incest , He will not condemn incest with out twisting its meaning !!!!

[UmmAbdulMalikStorm]

Mika, you're sucha joke.

I cant believe you have the audacity to imply that every Muslim woman is somehow brainwashed by men. You make it sound like they have a big conspiracy against us. Thus far, have you seen any of us agreeing with you?

We got quit a lot of readers of this thread, it seems that the issue of muslim wome marrying non muslim men, or muslim men marrying non muslim women generates lots of interest, that is good.

This sad case is just reveling in the attention, ignore him and hopefully he'll just spare us his stupidity.

[Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari]

Mika!

I think I need to clarify something about men marrying non-muslim women:

Firstly men are not allowed to marry all "Non-muslim" women, but Islam only permits non-muslim women from either the Christian or Jewish faith. And that isn't it, but the women should be religious and follow her faith well. Islam permits this because these two groups, even though they lack proper monotheism, still posses the fundamental laws that would prevent a person from acting no different than an animal. (i.e the 10 commandments)

From what I hear from you, you want people to not follow any type of religion at all and follow their whims and desires without boundaries. And you consider any type of rules or laws given essentially as oppression, and you've masked this behind sexism, but in reality your calling for anarchy.

I think Mika that you don't understand religion in its own right, you've probley questioned everything in this world for the sake of questioning it, and challenged everything in this world for the sake of challenging it.

So when you see someone (male or female) following their religion, even though it goes against their whims and desires, you can't understand why they put themselves in these boundaries willingly.

The truth is this, once you've understood who the Creator is, the Only Creator where He is the creator and everything besides Him is creation. (i.e. that He is eternal without beginning nor end, never didn't exist and will exist for ever, and everything else besides Him had a beginning and end, and one time didn't exist) after this you become humbled and understand that we are not gods nor do we possess infinite ability to do whatever we fathom.

So knowing that God wouldn't leave this world without His message and guidance, you begin to look to which religion practicing the sole concept of "Me just worshiping God" and you look and search, and then you'll come to the conclusion that Islam is the only religion that practices this in its entirety.

After that you set aside all the misinformation and misconceptions and understand that even though there might be many groups within Islam that differ, that there is somewhere in that pile of people a diamond of the true calling and its upon you to find it.

So you read and research and give every point in Islam the "benefit of the doubt" and give the argument a chance to explain itself open mindedly. Then after that you'll build a trust for Islam knowing that this is from God and begin to follow things even though it goes against your intellect. Like for example the prophet Muhammad SAWS said 1400 ago:

"If a fly lands in your drink, dip the fly in and then take it out, because on one wing is a poison and on the other is the cure."

I know your like, "What? Fly in drink, what the heck?" and I believe many muslims were like that to throughout the last 1400 years, but some believed that if the prophet said it and he was commanded by God as a human example for mankind, than it must be the truth, and they followed it. Now would you believe that scientist just discovered a few years ago that yes flies hold bacteria on their wings and they have an antibody as well there.

So your talking to people that have built a trust in God and what he's said. This religion isn't put in the hands of Imams or religious scholars, they only convey what has already been written. I can go to a book of hadeeth right now and read the exact words of the prophet Muhammad SAWS, I can open the Quran and know that the book in my hands and know that it was the exact book that was in the hands of the people 1400 years ago. You might ask, "How do I know for sure that it is the same" for one the Quran is the most memorized book in the world and has been for the last 1400 years. There hasn't been a time on this earth sense that there hasn't been tens of thousands of people present that have memorized this book, and they are spread throughout the world, from west Africa to east Asia, and even today North and south America. Thousands who know this book, so there isn't and couldn't be any room for doubt in its authenticity.

So in saying this when you receive trust in God you understand that something like that fly in the water, you might not understand now but if given a chance and put into practice you see that it is in our best interest. I hope that this opened some new doors in your train of thought and the way you perceive this religion. I think I've put enough of my time into this discussion, if you can't understand then that means you don't want to understand, but instead have an agenda.

[mika]

Hello again,

Umm Ahmed wrote:
What stops you from fornicating in the street ?
Here you bring a sexual related issue in again as example, like a lot of your friends in this forum.
Have you and your friends in here actually thought about what huge taboo all sexual related issues are within Islam?, sometimes it is like you people are obsessed by telling everybody how much you dislike all kind of sexual related activities. What went wrong?
Why are you so afraid of sex?
But to your question: What stops me is that I prefer to do that in private, that is much more comfortable;).

What stops you from stealing? is it not sentence you will receive when caught ?
Basically what stops me is that I do not want to harm another person by stealing his/her things.

You could say that if Allah really existed, why should he bother with the concept of "fear", he could just create mankind in a way so that they were little robots doing exactly what he wanted.....wait a minute.....why should he at all create mankind they are just creating "problems" all the time........let's get rid of the human race.....what do you think Umm Ahmed, is that the solution?

IbnShaykh wrote:
May Allah let me see you burn in the hellfire ameen.
Threats and punishment again.....what about you IbnShaykh, are you then getting all the virgins... because you have been a good boy?
By the way, why are all you muslim men so obsessed by virgins?


UmmAbdulMalikStorm wrote:
I cant believe you have the audacity to imply that every Muslim woman is somehow brainwashed by men. You make it sound like they have a big conspiracy against us. Thus far, have you seen any of us agreeing with you?
UmmAbdulMalikStorm you are actually brainwashed by Islam, and Islam are created and controlled by men.
What surprises me most is that only so few women actually defend Islam and men in this forum, if you look at the messages in here, there are only very few women criticizing me here. We have got more than 700 views in this thread and I am sure that many muslim women reads this and begins to see what is wrong with this religion of Islam.

Abu Ayoub Al-Ansari,
Thanks for your long input.
I will not go into details with all your argumentation, but just comment the essence of what you wrote.

Believe me or not, but actually I do not have anything against religion as such.
If religion can give strength and comfort in life, for the individual person, then fine with me.

The problem comes when a religion do not accept that a persons religious affiliation, is a personal choice, and that a person is free to interpretate the religious script, as he or she wants.

Within Islam, a person’s religious affiliation is a public issue where everybody is aloud to punish a person that step aside the so-called divine rules claimed to be given by Allah.
In addition to that, a person are very often not even asked if they want to be muslim, they are simply just forced to be muslims af little kids, where they have nothing to say.

With regards to the Imams and scholars, they are here ONLY, to ensure that muslims are kicked into the right believe, basically they are here as the religious police, ensuring the everybody are marching to the same old tune.
The Imams and the so-called scholars are useless, we got the same kind of people in the christian society 300-400 years ago, but luckily we got rid of them, and the priests we got today seems to have understood that we are in 2007.
Get rid of the imams and the scholars, they are useless!

With regards to the quran, and the fact that it is 1300 - 1400 years old do not prove anything other than it is an old book, containing and exciting adventure!
The fact that a lot of people have read it do not at all prove that a "higher power" was responsible for the quran, how on earth do you come to that conclusion?

So to keep the issue in this thread, if Islam was such a strong ideology, Islam would not need to ask it's followers to punish a muslim women, if she wanted to marry a non muslim man, only a weak and dominating Ideology act like this, because it constantly feels insecure.

BR
Mika

[justabro]

Mika, actually, we love and embrace sex. However, we keep it private, not something to be shared with the whole world.

Quite frankly, I would be disgusted and ashamed to see my mother wearing a bikini just as I would be disgusted and ashamed to see my father wearing speedos. I apologize for having to be so vulgar, but it is precisely for reasons like this (but not limited to this) that Islam encourages modesty, not vulgarity.

Sexuality is a great blessing and a great joy, but only when it is enjoyed between husband and wife. Right now, particularly in America, internet porn is destroying relationships and ruining people's sex lives because they have grossly distorted notions of sex and sexuality. Removing the vulgarity that presently bombards the senses in Western society would allow people to once again have meaningful and satisfying sexual relationships with their partners, even if they do not look like supermodels.

The problem with the West is that sex was always looked down upon and shunned in Christianity, with celibacy and sexual inhibition being the ideal. This has lead to an extreme and opposite reaction. Unfortunately, some strands of Sufism encouraged similarly extreme ideas, disrupting the ideal balance between sex and modesty taught by Islam.

In any case, thanks for the advice, but you can keep your failed model. We don't want it.

[Umm Ahmed]

Here you bring a sexual related issue in again as example, like a lot of your friends in this forum.
Have you and your friends in here actually thought about what huge taboo all sexual related issues are within Islam?, sometimes it is like you people are obsessed by telling everybody how much you dislike all kind of sexual related activities. What went wrong?
Why are you so afraid of sex?
But to your question: What stops me is that I prefer to do that in private, that is much more comfortable

Foolish ramblings of someone that constantly puts their foot in their mouth . The muslims are high on the list of having one of the fastest birth rates in the world , your comment is a lie .
I used that example because you have advocated in many of your posts homosexuality , incest , so you are the one that has a problem and thus I have to show you examples that suit your mentality.
Having relations in private is more comfortable ? Lol admit it Mika you fear society and what they think , I'd rather fear the creator and the prescribed punishments.
So back to my point when fasting we abstain from intercourse , food water and vain talks . This would be a hardship on her husband if he is non muslim .
She also cant be around someone who drinks alcohol .

Mika why are you preoccupied with the point that a muslimah does not touch the hand of a man ? why would you want that ?

[mika]

Hello again,

justabro wrote:
Mika, actually, we love and embrace sex. However, we keep it private, not something to be shared with the whole world.But that is great..:)
Let me ask you a question, let's say you passed a really beautiful girl in the street, she had dressed very smart and sexy (and here I am not talking burka or hijab stuff), and it was obvious that she knew herself that she looked good and that she felt fully comfortable wearing this clothes.
When you passed her you were smiling to her, and she was smiling back.
Wouldn’t that be a nice experience......or do you see such a situation as something bad, that must never happen, because it is wrong according to Allah?


Quite frankly, I would be disgusted and ashamed to see my mother wearing a bikini just as I would be disgusted and ashamed to see my father wearing speedos. I apologize for having to be so vulgar, but it is precisely for reasons like this (but not limited to this) that Islam encourages modesty, not vulgarity. :) :) OK justabro you got a point, and I would properly feel the same with my mother and dad, but lets take the other extreme, would you feel disgusted by seeing a beautiful girl in her 20's on the beach having fun, wearing bikini?
*blasphemy edited*

Removing the vulgarity that presently bombards the senses in Western society would allow people to once again have meaningful and satisfying sexual relationships with their partners, even if they do not look like supermodels.You have your full right to mean that as long as you accept that this is your own personal opinion, the problem comes up when you demand that everybody shall mean the same as you, and you try to justify it by means of a 1300-1400 old book.

Umm Ahmed wrote:
The muslims are high on the list of having one of the fastest birth rates in the world , your comment is a lie .
Well, sometimes it looks like sex is seen only as a way to make babies... do you think that sex is also OK just for fun and pleasure, or is that a bad thing according to Allah?

Lol admit it Mika you fear society and what they think , I'd rather fear the creator and the prescribed punishments. Yes I know you live in life long fear for Allah, and that is very sad not only for you, but also for your kids that you will properly give no choice if they wants to become muslims.
That means that you Umm Ahmed force your children to live in life long fear also.....you do not give them a choice…

So back to my point when fasting we abstain from intercourse, food water and vain talks . This would be a hardship on her husband if he is non muslim .
She also cant be around someone who drinks alcohol. It depends on how she would define the way of being muslim.
I in her interpretation of the quran, intercourse and wine could be OK!, and in her understanding she would be just as good muslim as you Umm Ahmed

Understand it Umm Ahmed, it is not up to you or any low life imam or so called schollar, to decide how the individual person shall interpret ate the quran, instead it is the individual person herself/himself, that decide how he/she wants to live according to Islam!
In that way, marriages between non muslim men and muslim women would work fine, no problem.

BR
Mika

[Umm Ahmed]

Well, sometimes it looks like sex is seen only as a way to make babies... do you think that sex is also OK just for fun and pleasure, or is that a bad thing according to Allah?

What do you mean it looks like ? your all over the place Mika , in one post you said we are preoccupied by sex, now you say it looks like we have sex for babies.


A woman goes through menopause in her mid forties, are you that thick to suggest that she does not have sex again because her producing is over ? Do you think we are a different breed from you ? Did you hear anyone here say that sex is for having babies and not for pleasure . By your way of thinking we only need to have intercourse once every year to have a baby!



Understand it Umm Ahmed, it is not up to you or any low life imam or so called schollar, to decide how the individual person shall interpret ate the quran, instead it is the individual person herself/himself, that decide how he/she wants to live according to Islam!

Again I ask you what interpretation of the Quran are you referring to?

Low life imam ? thats shocking you have just slandered a lot of good people for no reason. You will be called to account some day for those words Mika , you should try and save yourself before that day comes to you.

Everyone knows right from wrong if they are a muslim the Quran is a guide for all mankind and its a guide thats easy to follow. No muslim will say I don't believe in the Hijab because the verses in the Quran are clear about this , they might say the hibjab is in the heart or pray for me sister I want to wear it but my faith is weak at the moment , or the society I am in prevents me , this is what someone like you wont understand because you have no concept of the word faith.

In that way, marriages between non muslim men and muslim women would work fine, no problem.

Are you a marriage counselor by any chance ? if not then you should not speak about that which you do not know. Your not a muslim to know what works and does not work for muslims.

I in her interpretation of the quran, intercourse and wine could be OK!, and in her understanding she would be just as good muslim as you Umm Ahmed


Which verse are you referring to? next time you write you have to add the verse you are referring to instead of just writing from the top of your head.

[Abuz Zubair]

mika, you are free to question and debate any aspect of Islam you like, but remember not to cross the limits. Blasphemy is neither necessary, nor would it be tolerated.

[mika]

Abuz Zubair

Have you been given the devine rights directly from Allah to define the limits of a discussion, or has the critisism of islam been too much for you personally?

Remember what could be blasphemy to you, could be normal critical argumentation to me.

mika

[Magoo]

the rules that govern this site are taken from an islamic perspective, i dont know if you noticed mika but its called islamicawakening thats why neither you or i can decide what is or isnt blasphemy, islam defines it for us and we seek refuge with Allah from balsphemers such as yourself

[Umm Ahmed]

Remember what could be blasphemy to you, could be normal critical argumentation to me.

mika

Ahh so your a atheist ?

[UmmAbdulMalikStorm]

Ive said it in the other thread and im going to say it again coz i really feel that this guy is a waste of people's time. This fool doesn't even understand the basic tenets of faith so WHY have a discussion with him about anything else?

And if he's an atheist, that's even more reason to just ignore him. People have advised him far too many times now, that's enough. Even Allah doesn't give these people the time of day in the Quran. I remember shaikh Yasir Qadhi saying that there are only 3-5 verses that address the atheists so he's made a point to only spend 5 minutes conversing with them and then leaving. You will end up going round and round and round.

He's an insolent, ungrateful, IT! Get rid!!

[abumuwahid]

Ive said it in the other thread and im going to say it again coz i really feel that this guy is a waste of people's time. This fool doesn't even understand the basic tenets of faith so WHY have a discussion with him about anything else?

And if he's an atheist, that's even more reason to just ignore him. People have advised him far too many times now, that's enough. Even Allah doesn't give these people the time of day in the Quran. I remember shaikh Yasir Qadhi saying that there are only 3-5 verses that address the atheists so he's made a point to only spend 5 minutes conversing with them and then leaving. You will end up going round and round and round.

He's an insolent, ungrateful, IT! Get rid!!

Very well said and beneficial sister. How can one take a person serious, who gets his moral code from monkeys?

Jazakallahu Kheyran

[IbnShaykh]

Ive said it in the other thread and im going to say it again coz i really feel that this guy is a waste of people's time. This fool doesn't even understand the basic tenets of faith so WHY have a discussion with him about anything else?

And if he's an atheist, that's even more reason to just ignore him. People have advised him far too many times now, that's enough. Even Allah doesn't give these people the time of day in the Quran. I remember shaikh Yasir Qadhi saying that there are only 3-5 verses that address the atheists so he's made a point to only spend 5 minutes conversing with them and then leaving. You will end up going round and round and round.

He's an insolent, ungrateful, IT! Get rid!!

Again I agree Jzack Allaahu Khayra ukthi for this

[mika]

Hello again,

It seems that you Umm Ahmed and you UmmAbdulMalikStorm do not like atheists is that correct?

Do you respect every individual persons right to choose if he/she wants to be muslim christian, jewish hindu or to be atheist?

BR
Mika

[Umm Ahmed]

Hello again,

It seems that you Umm Ahmed and you UmmAbdulMalikStorm do not like atheists is that correct?

Do you respect every individual persons right to choose if he/she wants to be muslim christian, jewish hindu or to be atheist?

BR
Mika

It seems ? where does it seem ? Are you Atheist

Everyone has freedom of choice to choose what they wish to believe, you have played this record before Mika in other threads.

[mika]

Hello again

Umm Ahmed wrote
It seems ? where does it seem ? Are you Atheist
I do not really speculate of what I am, but I see life as the most important, much more important than an adventure that says that if we behave according to some old man made rules, then we will get paradise and virgins...
Life is the most important, and we shall not waste our life on dominating ideologies like for example Islam.

Then Umm Ahmed wrote:
Everyone has freedom of choice to choose what they wish to believe
Does that mean that you will fully respect if your own children or friends wants to convert to Christianity or another religion and leave Islam?

BR
Mika

[Umm Ahmed]

Hello again

Umm Ahmed wrote

I do not really speculate of what I am, but I see life as the most important, much more important than an adventure that says that if we behave according to some old man made rules, then we will get paradise and virgins...
Life is the most important, and we shall not waste our life on dominating ideologies like for example Islam.

We don't follow man made rules , we follow our creators rules , God who in his infinite wisdom knows everything, thats why Islaam is perfect for all time. Life is important, but not as important as the after life this is something we look forward to , our rewards for holding on to the teachings of the Quran and Sunnah , following Islaam is not a waste of time , your wasting your time following your own self Mika, the Mika ideology is nothing except blowing sand in the wind, no root no purpose

Then Umm Ahmed wrote:

Does that mean that you will fully respect if your own children or friends wants to convert to Christianity or another religion and leave Islam?

BR
Mika

I cant respect that decision no, like if someone became a Christian after being a Muslim, they are going from the Oneness of God to triple Gods or the three in one God . They are to be helped , but in the end it is their decision.
We had this conversation in at least two other threads that you were involved in , you had no retort in those, please don't start here again , its time consuming to me.

[UmmAbdulMalikStorm]

Mika keep your lame questions to yourself. It's like you already know the answers but you're just trying to provoke.

I do not really speculate of what I am, but I see life as the most important, much more important than an adventure that says that if we behave according to some old man made rules, then we will get paradise and virgins...
Life is the most important, and we shall not waste our life on dominating ideologies like for example Islam.

Ok thank you for sharing that with us. Now why don't you run along and find another forum with like-minded nutters? Do you really think your going to convert us all to your pitiful way of thinking?

[mika]

Hello again,

Umm Ahmed
We don't follow man made rules , we follow our creators rules , God who in his infinite wisdom knows everything, thats why Islaam is perfect for all time.
Well, the the problem is just that you really do not know if the quran is man made too.
Hmm, Islam perfect all the time.....Islam has really not performed very well, just look at what Islam brain wash people to do.
Also, the muslim world is poor, innovation and progress has stopped, and we see more and more islamic religios maniacs, killing themselves and others, in tha name of Islam and Allah.
So maybe it is time to look for alternatives to Islam.

I cant respect that decision no, like if someone became a Christian after being a Muslim, they are going from the Oneness of God to triple Gods or the three in one God . They are to be helped , but in the end it is their decision.
It is good that you will decide to let your children decide if they wants to be muslims, or convert to another religion without our casting them or punish them that is the way Umm Ahmed.

UmmAbdulMalikStorm wrote:
Mika keep your lame questions to yourself.
The problem is, UmmAbdulMalikStorm, that you are not used to that issues like leaving islam, ect are openly discussed and debated
I think that you have to get used to that, because these issues will become more and more and issue within islam simply because each individual muslim will have to rethink if he or she can continue being muslim with all the terrible tings going on in the world, in the name of islam.

BR
Mika

[Al_Zahir_Baybars]

Well, the the problem is just that you really do not know if the quran is man made too.
Hmm, Islam perfect all the time.....Islam has really not performed very well, just look at what Islam brain wash people to do.
Also, the muslim world is poor, innovation and progress has stopped, and we see more and more islamic religios maniacs, killing themselves and others, in tha name of Islam and Allah.
So maybe it is time to look for alternatives to Islam.


Ok I know I said I wouldn't respond to this guy anymore but I just want to make one clear distinction here regarding nations, When Muslim majority countries were ruled by Islamic governments they progressed far beyond anything else, today the lack of progress and innovation can be attributed to the fact that they are divided (all the mid east was once one state), they follow secularist governments, and if they choose an Islamic government (democratically as the west so often pushes on them) they usually become sanctioned and isolated such as the Hamas state of Palestine.

If this is not enough though well then there are many nations out there which are not muslim which also have poor living conditions, including the US where there are areas which you'd have to be crazy to walk through. There are examples of Muslim majority nations in a good state though, Malaysia is an industrial power that imports it vehicles even into europe and has Islam as a fundimental part of the government works. There are several small oil wealthy nations in the mid east which also allow for decent living standards.

I have been looking into malaysia alot, and I will start a seperate thread on it regarding whether or not it is viewed as secular or islamic as this has been discussed many times even in malaysia itself.

[Umm Ahmed]

Well, the the problem is just that you really do not know if the quran is man made too.

Oh yes we do, the Quran itself is a Miracle, in fact there is a challenge in the Quran for the likes of you , produce a verse like one of its verses , otherwise hold your tongue.
Hmm, Islam perfect all the time.....Islam has really not performed very well, just look at what Islam brain wash people to do.

Well lets see the examples Mika ,that to you are brainwashing. I have shown you in many previous threads the reason why Islaam asks women to cover why there are punishments for crime so bring something different , please go to those threads to refresh your memory. You couldn't answer those it means you know in your heart that Islaam does have the answers.
Also, the muslim world is poor, innovation and progress has stopped, and we see more and more islamic religios maniacs, killing themselves and others, in tha name of Islam and Allah.

naah your rambling and clutching at straws here , the muslim world is not poor at all corrupt governments , world banks and greedy western companies have ruined countries. The muslim world is wakening up more people are going to the Mosques as they become literate and learn that to adhere to Islaam properly is the only way to go, and throw off the remnants of colonialism.
The Muslim world has a problem with brain drain , Muslims embrace innovation and progress as long as it does not interfere with our worship . There is stem cell research going on right where I am in animals. Don't insult the muslims intelligence the muslims have been pioneers in science, when the Europeans were still taking a bath once a year.

So maybe it is time to look for alternatives to Islam.
Your just saying that for something to say Mika , you know there is nothing that can equate with Islaam.

[UmmAbdulMalikStorm]

1. Say (O Muhammad () to these Mushrikûn and Kâfirûn): "O Al-Kâfirûn (disbelievers in Allâh, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, and in Al-Qadar, etc.)!

2. "I worship not that which you worship,

3. "Nor will you worship that which I worship.

4. "And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.

5. "Nor will you worship that which I worship.

6. "To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islâmic Monotheism)."

End of.

[mika]

Hello again,

Umm Ahmed wrote:
Oh yes we do, the Quran itself is a Miracle, in fact there is a challenge in the Quran for the likes of you , produce a verse like one of its verses , otherwise hold your tongue.
Umm Ahmed just because you and many others think that the quran is great, and consider it as a miracle, it does not proof that it is not man made.

Well lets see the examples Mika ,that to you are brainwashing.
Let me say it very easy, all muslims are certainly not terrorists, but today, most terrorists are muslims, and especially the suicide bombers we see more and more, are mentally brainwashed to think that they are rewarded by allah, by killing "allah's enemyes".

naah your rambling and clutching at straws here , the muslim world is not poor at all corrupt governments , world banks and greedy western companies have ruined countries.
Bad excuse Umm Ahmed, if you take the rich gulf states, such as UAE, where you live, NOTHING but oil and gas are produced.
You import work power from India to do the dirty work, and western manpower to supply and supervise all the high-tech stuff you need to run the country.
The young men from the rich UAE families goes to the West to study, and return directly to UAE, where they marry a local muslim girl, and then get a high paid job in the government, where they only work very little at a very high salary.
None of these guys actually start a company from the bottom where they work hard with their hands and create a innovative hightech product that can be sold to the west.
In the rest of the Islamic world you do not either see this innovative entrepreneurship, that creates "new stuff".
"New stuff" are created by people that live in a free society where it is not forbidden to ask question about everything INCLUDING asking critical questions about religious issues and questioning the existance of god, and how we were created.
In other words, in societies with dominating ideologies like Islam, everything stops because you are not wiling to compromise with Islam, and Islams nature is to keep everything as it was 1300-1400 years ago. That´s why you for example hate the theory about Darwin.
Darwin started to ask critical question, and he was able to do that in a western free society, in the Islamis world you would have kicked him to jail for blasphemy!


UmmAbdulMalikStorm wrote:
1. Say (O Muhammad () to these Mushrikûn and Kâfirûn): "O Al-Kâfirûn (disbelievers in Allâh, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, and in Al-Qadar, etc.)!

2. "I worship not that which you worship,

3. "Nor will you worship that which I worship.

4. "And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.

5. "Nor will you worship that which I worship.

6. "To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islâmic Monotheism)."

End of.

How do you interpreters the above UmmAbdulMalikStorm?

To Al_Zahir_Baybars:
The reason that Malaysia and Indonesia are have some success is that these countries have a large population of non muslim Chinese people that basically create the values and keep these countries running.



BR
Mika

[Umm Ahmed]

Umm Ahmed just because you and many others think that the quran is great, and consider it as a miracle, it does not proof that it is not man made.

Prove that it's not then Mika , you have all ready been squished on how Islaam cures the ills in society, I cant help it if you have a veil over your eyes.

Bad excuse Umm Ahmed, if you take the rich gulf states, such as UAE, where you live, NOTHING but oil and gas are produced.
You import work power from India to do the dirty work, and western manpower to supply and supervise all the high-tech stuff you need to run the country.

oooo no answers lol so attack the country I live in . Never mind I have a lot of patience.

Facts are bad excuses ? The UAE is how old ? They produce way more than oil and gas , they build rigs all things related to that industry as that is what their first resource was , they now export ceramics all over the world even to my own country , they produce aluminum , export fish and dates and what fruit they can grow in this heat. UAE exports cement ,marble and all products that come from mountains .

There are not enough UAE nationals to run this country thats why there are many other nationals here , but to say that Indians are doing only dirty work is unjust . Indians are here to work just like the thousands of other nationals that come to this country , Indians are not only laborers, some are millionaires, choitram , Rivoli , Jumbo electronics are all owned by Indians . also in any office there is a large contingent of Indian nationals. My own husband was trained by an Indian and he is still above him in rank, so stop spouting rubbish.

The young men from the rich UAE families goes to the West to study, and return directly to UAE, where they marry a local muslim girl, and then get a high paid job in the government, where they only work very little at a very high salary.


To get educated so they can work in this country the majority of UAE nationals are sent abroad this is paid for by the government, This is now changing as the country has started its own universities at one thime these unis were run totally by foreigner's but now they have UAE nationals also teaching.
Is there something wrong with a UAE national marrying an other UAE national ? dont let your hatred and fustration at not having any answers make you become an extremist.
As for nationals working little and receiving big salaries thats changing , as clocking in has been introduced to many companies, the working hours are long here from 7 till 4 or split shift system locals seek goverment jobs because they are easy , but those who seek that are also laid back this is a characteristic of the local national tomorrow will do. But thats changing too , as I said its a new country .

None of these guys actually start a company from the bottom where they work hard with their hands and create a innovative hightech product that can be sold to the west.
Juma al majid and al futaim both build their companies from the bottom up , majority of the people here above 50 can not read or write the new generation will do better so for a country that was sucking dates and living in clay houses its done not bad at all .


In the rest of the Islamic world you do not either see this innovative entrepreneurship, that creates "new stuff".
Stop talking rot every single muslim country is creating new stuff , from the person who attaches a diesel pump to his well to water his rice field in Bangladesh to a Syrian that makes tiles to sell . People innovate as they need it , every muslim country has a factory of some sort thats creating new stuff its called modernization! your on the net Mika use it for goodness sake, and stop making ignorant comments .
"New stuff" are created by people that live in a free society where it is not forbidden to ask question about everything INCLUDING asking critical questions about religious issues and questioning the existance of god, and how we were created.
The excistance of God is very easily explained , its your problem go solve it.
Did we have to question if there is a God to use the computer ? We can question what ever we want , but faith is based on certainty . How on earth do you think I became a muslim Mika ? but then again I always knew there was a God . I cant help you with your problem.
In other words, in societies with dominating ideologies like Islam, everything stops because you are not wiling to compromise with Islam, and Islams nature is to keep everything as it was 1300-1400 years ago.

In other words? haa haa In Mikas twisted words. Yes Islaam is a dominating influence in everything , it keeps us grounded and not open to gross mistakes . The Muslim world and all the muslims scattered around the world are not living as it was 1400 years ago , we have cars , electricity and loh and behold a tap that has running water.

Gimme a break Mika , your post was like someone hanging off a cliff clutching at anything to pull themselves up .

That´s why you for example hate the theory about Darwin.
Darwin started to ask critical question, and he was able to do that in a western free society, in the Islamis world you would have kicked him to jail for blasphemy!

knock yourself out on the following site, you owe it to yourself and whoever in your family follows your way.

http://harunyahya.com/c_refutation_darwinism.php