ahadith required

[waziri]

salam,

Could the brothers please post all ahadith that can be used as evidence to establish that the speech of Allah subhana wa ta ala consists of sounds.JazakAllah khayr

I Know of the quranic ayah that are used as daleel such as

020.011
YUSUFALI: But when he came to the fire, a voice was heard: "O Moses!
PICKTHAL: And when he reached it, he was called by name: O Moses!
SHAKIR: So when he came to it, a voice was uttered: O Musa:

and the other ayah which relate the story of musa alayhi salam.

So i need ahadith, or ayah other than the the above.


Also we know that there is nothing like unto Allah subhana wa ta ala so when we say Allah speaks with a sound do we have to say that the sound is like no other,or a sound that befits the majesty of Allah?


JazakAllah khayr

wasalam

[Logic lover]

Assalamu alaikum brother Wazeerey.

The following is just a compilation, for I am not qualified to state anything of my own accord -

From Tafsir ibn Kathir for Quran 20:11 -

Allah, the Exalted, says,
(And when he came to it,) This is referring to the fire when he approached it.
(He was called by name: "O Musa!'') In another Ayah it says,
(He was called from the right side of the valley, in the blessed place, from the tree: "O Musa! Verily, I am Allah.'')﴿28:30﴾ However, here Allah says,
(Verily, I am your Lord!) meaning, `the One Who is talking to you and addressing you,'
(So take off your shoes;) `Ali bin Abi Talib, Abu Dharr, Abu Ayyub and others of the Salaf said, "They (his sandals) were from the skin of a donkey that was not slaughtered.'' It has also been said that he was only commanded to remove his sandals due to respect for the blessed spot. Concerning Allah's statement,
(Tuwa) `Ali bin Abi Talhah said that Ibn `Abbas said, "It is the name of the valley.'' Others have said the same. This is merely mentioned as something to give more explanation to the story. It has also been said that it is a figure of speech, which comes from the command to place his feet down. It has also been said that it means `doubly sacred' and that Tuwa is something that has repetitious blessings. However, the first opinion is most correct. It is similar to Allah's statement,
(When his Lord called him in the sacred valley of Tuwa.) ﴿79:16﴾ Allah's statement,
(And I have chosen you.) is similar to His statement,
(I have chosen you above men by My Messages, and by My speaking (to you).) ﴿7:144﴾ This means over all human beings of that time. It has also been said that Allah said, "O Musa, do you know why I chose to speak to you directly out of all of the people'' Musa said, "No.'' Allah then said, "Because I have not made anyone humble himself as much as you have humbled yourself. ''

Noble Quran 7:143. And when Musa came at the time and place appointed by Us, and his Lord (Allah) spoke to him; he said: "O my Lord! Show me (Yourself), that I may look upon You.'' Allah said: "You cannot see Me, but look upon the mountain; if it stands still in its place then you shall see Me.'' So when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He made it collapse to dust, and Musa fell down unconscious. Then when he recovered his senses he said: "Glory be to You, I turn to You in repentance and I am the first of the believers.''

From Tafsir ibn Kathir:

Allah said that when Musa came for His appointment and spoke to Him directly, he asked to see Him,
("O my Lord! Show me (Yourself), that I may look upon You.'' Allah said: "You cannot see Me,'') `You cannot' (Lan) by no means indicates that seeing Allah will never occur, as (the misguided sect of) Al-Mu`tazilah claimed. The Hadiths of Mutawatir grade narrated from the Messenger of Allah, affirm that the believers will see Allah in the Hereafter. We will mention these Hadiths under the explanation of Allah's statement,
(Some faces that Day shall be radiant. Looking at their Lord.) ﴿75:22-23﴾ In earlier Scriptures, it was reported that Allah said to Musa, "O Musa! No living soul sees Me, but will perish, and no solid but will be demolished.'' Allah said here,
(So when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He made it collapse to dust, and Musa fell down unconscious.) In his Musnad Imam Ahmad recorded from Anas bin Malik that the Prophet said about Allah's saying;
(And when his Lord appeared to the mountain, )
(Like this) then he held out the tip of his little finger. At-Tirmidhi recorded this in the chapter of Tafsir for this Ayah, then he said; "This Hadith is Hasan Sahih Gharib.'' This was also recorded by Al-Hakim in his Mustadrak through the route of Hamad bin Salamah, and he said; "This Hadith is Sahih according to the criteria of Muslim and they did not record it.'' And As-Suddi reported that `Ikrimah reported from Ibn `Abbas about Allah's saying,
(And when his Lord appeared to the mountain,) Only the extent of the little finger appeared from Him,
(He made it collapse) as dust;
(And Musa fell down unconscious) fainting from it. Ibn Jarir recorded these because of the relation to the word Al-Ghashi.
(Then when he (Musa) recovered his senses) after he lost consciousness,
(he said: "Glory be to You,'') thus, praising, glorifying and honoring Allah since no living soul could see Him in this life and remain alive. Musa' statement,
("I turn to You in repentance'') means, according to Mujahid, that from asking you to look at you,
("and I am the first of the believers.''), among the Children of Israel, according to Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid, and Ibn Jarir preferred this view. Or, according to another narration from Ibn `Abbas, the meaning of,
("and I am the first of the believers.''), is that `none shall see You (in this life).' Allah said,
(And Musa fell down unconscious.) Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri and Abu Hurayrah narrated a Hadith from the Prophet that is suitable to mention here. As for the Hadith from Abu Sa`id, Al-Bukhari recorded in his Sahih that he said: A Jew came to the Prophet after his face was smacked, and said, "O Muhammad! One of your companions from Al-Ansar smacked me on the face.'' The Prophet said,
(Summon him) and he was summoned. The Prophet asked him,
(Why did you smack his face) He said, "O Allah's Messenger! I passed by that Jew and heard him swearing, `No, by He Who has chosen Musa over mankind!' I said, `Over Muhammad too', and I became angry and struck his face.'' The Prophet said,
(Do not prefer me above the Prophets. Verily, on the Day of Resurrection, people will be struck unconscious, and I (feel that I) am the first to wake up. Thereupon I will find that Musa is holding onto a pillar of the Throne (`Arsh of Allah). I will not know if he woke up before me or he received his due (because of his) unconsciousness on (Mount) At-Tur.) Al-Bukhari recorded this Hadith in many locations of his Sahih, as did Muslim and Abu Dawud. As for the Hadith from Abu Hurayrah, Imam Ahmad and the Two Shaykhs (Al-Bukhari and Muslim) collected his narration. Unquote.

Noble Quran 7:144. (Allah) said: "O Musa I have chosen you above men by My Messages, and by My speaking (to you). So hold that which I have given you and be of the grateful.'')

From Tafsir ibn Kathir:

Allah states that He spoke to Musa directly and informed him that He has chosen him above the people of his time, by His Message and by speaking to him. Here we should mention that there is no doubt that Muhammad is the chief of all the Children of Adam, the earlier and later ones among them. This is why Allah has chosen him to be the Final and Last Prophet and Messenger, whose Law shall remain dominant and valid until the commencement of the Last Hour. Muhammad's followers are more numerous than the followers of all Prophets and Messengers. After Muhammad , the next in rank of honor and virtue is Ibrahim upon him be peace,, then Musa, son of `Imran, who spoke to the Most Beneficent directly. Unquote.

Noble Quran 28:30. So when he reached it, he was called from the right side of the valley, in the blessed place, from the tree: "O Musa! Verily, I am Allah, the Lord of all that exists!''

From Tafsir ibn Kathir:

(O Musa! Verily, I am Allah, the Lord of all that exits!) meaning, `the One Who is addressing you and speaking to you is the Lord of all that exits, the One Who does what He wills, the One apart from Whom there is no other god or lord, may He be exalted and sanctified, the One Who by His very nature, attributes, words and deeds is far above any resemblance to His creation, may He be glorified.

From the book 'Introduction to the sciences of Quran'' by Sheikh Yasir Qadhi, page 32 - 33:

In another authentic hadith, the Prophet, peace be upon him, clearly stated that Allah's kalaam is with sound, for he said, ''When Allah decrees a matter in the skies, the angels move their wings in humility for His speech, which sounds like a chain over a rock'' Reported by Al-Bukhari. Unquote.

[terrorthreat]

Here is a 5 part series from one of Shaykh Yasir Qadhi's books on the Speech of Allah and he touches on the Names and Attributes of Allah in general and where the Asharis went wrong.

http://www.islaam.net/main/display.php?category=30

[waziri]

JazakAllah khair brothers Logic Lover and Terror threat.I beg Allah the most high to reward you both and that he may guide us all to the haq, aameeeen.

wasalam

[waziri]

I,ve read through the articles of shaykh Yasir Qhadi and alhamdulillah they explained alot and made clear some issues that I was thinking about.

However one question has come up.
QUOTE
"Therefore it is essential that Muslims fear Allaah, and teach each other the Qur`aan...and not argue over it. And they should know that it is the kalaam of Allaah, not created. So if a Jahmee argues with them, and says, "It is created!" or says, "The Qur`aan is the kalaam of Allaah!" and stops at that (i.e., a Waaqifee), or says, "My recitation of the Qur`aan is created!" (i.e., a Lafdhee"

I need to know about Lafdhee,the article states that it is wrong to say "My recitation of the Qur`aan is created!"

What is the correct understanding of this? Surley our actions are created,if I recite the quran then the sound that is heard is created,so this means that my recitation is created.Have i missed something please ikhwan clarify for me as im confused.

Apart from this question, mashaAllah the rest of the articles were very informative and im now mashaAllah clear on that which i was confused about.

JazakAllah khair.

wasalam

[Abuz Zubair]

I need to know about Lafdhee,the article states that it is wrong to say "My recitation of the Qur`aan is created!"

What is the correct understanding of this? Surley our actions are created,if I recite the quran then the sound that is heard is created,so this means that my recitation is created.Have i missed something please ikhwan clarify for me as im confused.

Imam Ahmad condemned those who said that lafdhi bil-quran makhluq, my recitation of the Quran is created, because the sentence was ambiguous.

Meaning, the ‘recitation’ here could refer to the reciter’s own recitation (i.e. his sound and letters), as it could equally refer to the Quran itself. In order to remove the ambiguity, Imam Ahmad insisted that people say that the Quran is uncreated, and condemned them for saying either a) my recitation is created, or b) my recitation is not created.

[waziri]

JazakAllah khair for the reply.

I listened to a talk about the life of Imam Bukhari and the speaker said the reaon that Imam Ahmad and other ulema of the time forbade this was because of the fitna of the time.The mutazila were propagating their baatil so the ulema did not want to say something that might be used by them to confuse the people even further.The alim who gave the talk narrated a incident which occured with Imam Bukhari when he was asked a question about the quran being created and he answered and said that the Quran is the uncreated speech of Allah and that our actions are created.

Anyway my point is that the reason that Imam Ahmad and other ulema frowned upon the saying "lafdhi bil-quran makhluq" is because of the fitna of the time and not that there is anything wrong in essence with the saying itself.Sureley no one believes that their recitation (ie the sound that is emanating from their own selves) of the quran is not created,and if people misinterpret this saying then that is due to their lack of understanding of the matter and not the fault of someone who might say such a thing,further the fitna of that time(ie quran being created) is not prevelent today so I cant see why someone might get labeled a deviant ladhfi or something like that for saying such a thing.

wasalam

[Abu_Abdallah]

JazakAllah khair for the reply.

I listened to a talk about the life of Imam Bukhari and the speaker said the reaon that Imam Ahmad and other ulema of the time forbade this was because of the fitna of the time.The mutazila were propagating their baatil so the ulema did not want to say something that might be used by them to confuse the people even further.The alim who gave the talk narrated a incident which occured with Imam Bukhari when he was asked a question about the quran being created and he answered and said that the Quran is the uncreated speech of Allah and that our actions are created.

Anyway my point is that the reason that Imam Ahmad and other ulema frowned upon the saying "lafdhi bil-quran makhluq" is because of the fitna of the time and not that there is anything wrong in essence with the saying itself.Sureley no one believes that their recitation (ie the sound that is emanating from their own selves) of the quran is not created,and if people misinterpret this saying then that is due to their lack of understanding of the matter and not the fault of someone who might say such a thing,further the fitna of that time(ie quran being created) is not prevelent today so I cant see why someone might get labeled a deviant ladhfi or something like that for saying such a thing.

wasalam

al-Salamu 'Alaikum wa-Rahmatullah,

Akhi'l-Karim, what brother Abu Zubair said is correct. One should not say that the Lafz of the Qur'an is created - cause the saying contains ambiguity; and ambiguous sayings as these - which are also innovative - should not be applied to important matters as these.

Can you inform us of the scholar who said that nothing is wrong with such a saying, i.e. al-lafz bi'l-qur'an makhluq? How does he view the opinions of the Ahl al-Sunnah who opinion otherwise? Is he thinking that Imam Ahmad (or Imam al-Bukhari for that matter) forbade it for some other reason instead of what it essentially contains, i.e. that the Qur'an is created? Cause that is what it contains - even if one advocates the opposite - as these A'imma made clear. Whoever believes otherwise as it utterly wrong.

However, can one say therefore that the Lafz of the Qur'an is uncreated? of course not, as has been indicated. One should neither say it is created or uncreated, cause the saying alone with its ambiguity should not be judged according to this wording. The same A'imma I've mentioned opinioned that.

So what is it then? There is no answer given, unless the ambiguity is uplifted by the speaker and makes clear what he intends: the Qur'an itself or the recitation of the speaker. However, this does not legitimate speaking as such cause the scholars before us disapproved of it vehemently. The Imams made clear: Allah, His Names, Attributes and Actions are uncreated - this included His Speech as a whole and the Noble Qur'an as part of it; and His Speech consists of Words, Letters and Sound. None of this is created, rather He is the Creator and He says {Be, and it will be!}. The rest is the creation and all creatures who can speak or recite are created: their essences and attributes. So if man speaks, his speech is created - as are all his actions. However, if man recites (and reciting is different from speaking) something of His Creator then its recitation does not become created because of that - cause the first speaker is entitled to that 'speech' (in this case Allah's Words) and He is to ascribed by it. If I recites someones poem it does not become mine, simply because of reciting it; it stays the speech of the first speaker. Similarly, if Allah Speaks and we recite it some of His Speech it does not become ours - it stays His and the 'it' should not be called created because of it. Does this mean that 'it' (i.e. our recitation of the Qur'an) is uncreated cause it is ascribed to the First Speaker, i.e. Allah 'azza wa-jall? Neither! All of our attributes, incl. our expressions, are created whatever we say or do - but this does not mean the opposite. None of the Muslims ever opinioned that our speech, expressions or actions are uncreated, nor that our writing, transcribing or inscriptions are uncreated; what they do profess is the opposite. The Ahl al-Sunnah from these Muslims view - contrary to many Muslimbrethren - that venturing about this matter is innovative and that their outcome that our Lafz therefore is created is nothing less than approaching the heretical doctrine of the creation of the Qur'an. I shall illustrate some of the Fatwa's of the Imams of Old which clarifies all this - Insha'Allah.

Imam Abu Bakr al-Khallal - the Imam of the Hanâbilah of old and of new - authored the K. al-Sunnah in which he collects the sayings, doings and opinions of the Shari'ah of none other than Imam Ahmad b. Hanbal. There is almost no scholar who is more knowledgeable then him concerning matters of creed in his time, but certainly there is no one knowledgeable then him about the Imam in the centuries thereafter. He devoted a full chapter in the K. al-Sunnah, which says:

"al-Radd 'ala man qâl: Lafzi bi'l-Qur'an Makhluq min Kitâbi Allah wa-Sunnat Rasuluh wa-Ashabih."

[al-Khallal, K. al-Sunnah part 7, page 63]

The first narration on the authority of Imam Ahmad in this seventh part reads:

"Abu Tâlib said: I said to Abu 'Abdallah that from Tarsûs it was written to me that [Ahmad] al-Sharâk asserted that the Qur'an is the Speech of Allah, and when it is recited its recitation is created.

He (i.e. Imam Ahmad) said: May Allah kill him, this is the speech of Jahm himself!

I said (i.e. Abu Talib): The man said that the Qur'an is the Speech of Allah and is not created, but my pronunciation (lafzi) of it is created [and nothing more or dangerous than that].

He said: Whoever says this says it all! Rather, it is the Speech of Allah in whatever condition. The proof lies in the speech of Abu Bakr [al-Siddîq]: {Alif Lam Mim*The Romans overcame}. So it was said to him: This is what has come to you from your companion (i.e. the Prophet)? So he said: No, by Allah it is rather the Speech of Allah; this and else is but the Speech of Allah.

I said: In the Name of Allah the Merciful, Most-Compassionate {Praise to Allah, who Created the Heavens and the Earth, and made Darkness and Light. Yet those who disbelieve ascribe rivals unto their Lord} This what I've recited this hour is it the Speech fo Allah?

He said: Yes, by Allah it is the Speech of Allah and whosoever says 'my Lafz of the Qur'an is created has come with it all'; where does it stay when one says my Lafz?! If he does not come back then keep away from him and do not talk to him, this is and what's similar what al-Sharâk said - may Allah humiliate him! (Here Imam Ahmad's words end)

He (i.e. Abu Talib) said: Do you know who was his uncle [from his mother's side]?

I (i.e. the student of Abu Talib) said: No.

He said: 'Abdak the Sûfi. He was a man given to bad speech and opinion (sâhib kalâm wa-ray' sû'). Everyone who is given to Kalâm he shall not succeed to good.."

And the narration continues - its pretty long - and contains more valuable and relevant points concerning this matter. But I prefer to translate also other parts of the Imam's speech. I think the above speaks for itself - especially the 'but' of the righteous student Abu Talib - may Allah grant them all mercy.

The narrations that followes this long report all have to do with what this Sharâk innovated or followed of innovation, i.e. the doctrine and saying of Lafz of the Qur'an being created. Imam Ahmad said about him - when asked:

"Watch out for him and do not sit with him..!" (Idem. p.66)

"Watch out for him: he use to say <Lafzi bi'l-Qur'an makhluq>" (Idem.)

And he said about him also:

"This is an innovation (bid'ah)!" - 'and he became very angry', so says a narrator. (Idem.)

"Do not speak to him, nor sit with him and desert him and watch out for him!" (Idem. p.69)

"His matter has become known, and one shoudl watch out for him and not sit with him or speak to him." (Idem.)

So one can see: one man called al-Sharâk, may Allah forgive him, spoke on this matter of the Lafz. And it is an innovation, whatever it contains of correctness or not - even if al-Sharâk is a righteous man [as he possessed righteousness]. So how about some scholars who might say the same?

What about them..? Imam Ahmad and other were very clear concerning this:

Abdallah b. Ahmad b. Hanbal said:

"I asked my father on whoever says: My Lafz of the Qur'an is created? He said: It has to be said to the one who says this saying: La ilahah illa Allah is created, it is compulsory for him in this saying. This and it is said to him: The Lafz of Gabriel is created. And the Lafz by Muhammad is created. He said: This speech is evil, rejected and it is the speech of the Jahmiyyah." (Idem. p.72)

Abdallah b. Ahmad said also:

"My father was asked about al-Lafziyyah and I was hearing, so he said: Whosoever from them was ignorant and not a scholar, he should ask and learn." (Idem. p.73)

Abdallah b. Ahmad said:

"I heard my father once and he was asked about the Lafziyyah, so he said: "Whosoever from them equates the speech with the Qur'an, then he is a Jahmite! And he said another time: They are worse then the Jahmiyyah! And another time: They are the Jahmiyyah!" (Idem.)

And he narrates from his father:

"Whosoever points to the Qur'an by the lafz or something else, then he is a Jahmite!" (Idem. p.74)

So from this one sees clearly that the Lafziyyah are nothing but innovators and rejected by the Ahl al-Sunnah. The first one who spoke on this matter was al-Karâbisi, the one who was rejected by the Imam Ahmad and others - untill nothing in history except this of him became known. Not his discipleship of Imam al-Shafi'i or his expertise in Hadith.

From one of the above sayings we've mentioned of Imam Ahmad one can see how dangerous the Lafziyyah-doctrine is. And it is the saying that the Lafz of Gabriel must be created too. I shall mention the following report that reveals clearly what the Imam meant:

Abu Dawud al-Sijistani said:

"I asked Ahmad and said: These people who say our Lafz of the Qur'an is created? He said: This is worser than the saying of the Jahmiyyah; whosoever assert this then he assert that Gabriel came with something created and that the Prophet spoke with something created!" (Idem. p.76)

So if our Lafz is created, then how about the Prophets' Lafz? Or even higher: Gabriel received it and recited it to the Prophet, so how about his Lafz? Does all this therefore means: the Prophet received a revelation that is actually created - and not uncreated - similarly as we've heard and transcribed something created from intermediaries untill teh Prophet! And this is blasphemy!

Rather, the Prophet received the uncreated Qur'an and we received likewise the uncreated Qur'an - in whatever form: recited, written or heard. You never hear these innovators who claim affiliation with the Ahl al-Sunnah dare to say: the Prophet received something created. Rather, they say the Qur'an is uncreated and our recitation, writing etc. of the Qur'an is created - then how about the recitation of Gabriel to the Prophet?!?!

So from this - an much more - one can see that the saying: the Lafz is created or even uncreated is abonimable and rejected. Rather, it is an innovation. What is uncreated is the Speech of Allah in whatever form or condition, without stipulating if our recitation is or is not. What is created are we and all of our actions - as Imam al-Bukhari stated and Imam Ahmad to in meaning. He said: "The ink, the paper etc. is created". However, he or his likes of the Imams never said <The Qur'an inscribed or memorized or recited is created>.

I wanted to add more.. but had no time.

wa-Allahu A'lam

[waziri]

JazakAllah khair brother for your explanation.

I am clear on it InshaAllah.

QUOTE

"Can you inform us of the scholar who said that nothing is wrong with such a saying, i.e. al-lafz bi'l-qur'an makhluq?"

Im sorry brother if I gave the impression that the respected alim in question said that it was ok to say such a thing,he didnt he only pointed out why it was disliked and he made it clear that all the actions of humans are created.

wasalam