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Allah exists without a place - refuted! moved posts

This is a discussion on Allah exists without a place - refuted! moved posts within the Islamic Theology and Ideology forums, part of the Islamic Knowledge category; As Salamu Alaikum Warahmathullah Taken from another forum, May Allah (swt) reward the brother Bismillahi Ar-Rahmani Ar-Rahim, This is a ...

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    Default Allah exists without a place - refuted! moved posts

    As Salamu Alaikum Warahmathullah

    Taken from another forum, May Allah (swt) reward the brother

    Bismillahi Ar-Rahmani Ar-Rahim,


    This is a short refutation, yet strong, on the deviants who deny the real meaning of Istiwa' (i.e. settlement/establishment) of Allah (swt) over the Throne, according to the following verse [20:05]:


    The Beneficent One, Who is established on the Throne

    The heretics, such as Al-Ashaerah say: Allah (swt) is NOT really settling on the Throne, but this word Istawa (i.e. to settle) comes in Arabic as Istawla, which means to possess.

    And refuting this heresy is easy insha'Allah.

    First we say, in Arabic language the word Istawa can never come as Istawla, and no one can bring an evidence from the words of genuine Arabs to prove it.

    But, we will suppose this is TRUE, then we ask: The word Istawla literally mean in Arabic: To possess through seizing.. which means: something was not one of your belongining, you seized it and it became yours later.

    So does this mean the Throne was not Allah's belongings when He created it?

    They will say: You are lying to Arabic language [although the anchient Arabic poems prove my words].. and Istawla means possess only.

    Then we say: Ok, that is FINE. I am LYING to the Arabic language, and I will ASSUME that the word Istawa means Istawla, which means possess only, without seizing.

    Now we have to ask: Allah (swt) said in [10:03]:


    Lo! your Lord is Allah Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He established Himself upon the Throne, directing all things. There is no intercessor (with Him) save after His permission. That is Allah, your Lord, so worship Him. Oh, will ye not remind?

    According to this verse, Allah (swt) possessed the Throne AFTER He created the heavens and earths.

    They will say: Probably it means: He created the Throne after He created the heavens and earths.. and creation is possession.

    And here you can dumbfound him and say: But the Sahih Hadith states that the Throne was created before anything else:

    Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 93 :: Hadith 514
    Narrated 'Imran bin Hussain:
    While I was with the Prophet , some people from Bani Tamim came to him. The Prophet said, "O Bani Tamim! Accept the good news!" They said, "You have given us the good news; now give us (something)." (After a while) some Yemenites entered, and he said to them, "O the people of Yemen! Accept the good news, as Bani Tamim have refused it. " They said, "We accept it, for we have come to you to learn the Religion. So we ask you what the beginning of this universe was." The Prophet said "There was Allah and nothing else before Him and His Throne was over the water, and He then created the Heavens and the Earth and wrote everything in the Book." Then a man came to me and said, 'O Imran! Follow your she-camel for it has run away!" So I set out seeking it, and behold, it was beyond the mirage! By Allah, I wished that it (my she-camel) had gone but that I had not left (the gathering). "


    and there other Hadiths also that prove that the FIRST creation of Allah was the Throne.

    Now we need an answer from them:

    According to verse [10:03], and if we suppose that the meaning of Istawa is possess, then Allah (swt) possessed the Throne after He created the earths and heavens.. which means the Throne was NOT in his possession before this!!! And certainly who says this is a Kafir.

    Like this, they are dumbfounded!

    After all, Allah knows best
    Narrated An-Nu'man bin Bashir:

    I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'Both legal and illegal things are evident but in between them there are doubtful (suspicious) things and most of the people have no knowledge about them. So whoever saves himself from these suspicious things saves his religion and his honor. And whoever indulges in these suspicious things is like a shepherd who grazes (his animals) near the Hima (private pasture) of someone else and at any moment he is liable to get in it. (O people!) Beware! Every king has a Hima and the Hima of Allah on the earth is His illegal (forbidden) things. Beware! There is a piece of flesh in the body if it becomes good (reformed) the whole body becomes good but if it gets spoilt the whole body gets spoilt and that is the heart.


    Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 2 :: Hadith 49

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    Default Please help, jazaakallahu Khair.

    Someone wrote the following in relation the attributes such as Yad and Wajh etc. Can someone refute it and help put my heart at ease, Jazaakallahu Khair.

    Is willing, knowing, seeing, hearing something physical and a body ? NO
    They are abstract attributes. We know because we have brain thus the BRAIN is physical not the KNOWLEDGE ITSELF. We see because we have eyes thus the EYES is the physical not the SEEING itself. Hearing is with the ear thus the EAR is the physical not the HEARING itself. The meaning of these attributes aren't physical.

    Allah Sees without having an Eye and you can't make analogy by saying Allah has Hands without being physical or limb because 'Seeing' itself is not physical meaning however real Hand itself means physical and body part limb etc.

    You guys are making a grave mistake for example by saying we sit with our bodies so Allah sits without body because His sitting is unlike our sitting' But what is sitting and it's meaning ? Sitting is to rest with the torso vertical and the body supported on the buttocks. So if you say sitting without body then this is not sitting anymore so you should not interpret it in something and at the same time NEGATE THE MEANING of that interpretation. That's why you guys are doing tashbeeh you attribute the meanings to Allah what applies to the creation.

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    Default Allah exists without a place - refuted! moved posts

    As Salamu Alaikum Warahmathullah

    Brother Harris May Allah (swt) reward you greatly, you are doing a great work by exposing the heretic and his lies, see how he mocks the verses of Al Quraan without an atom of fear in his heart so how come we expect any good from him,

    I bet you believe Allah Ta'ala commanded the believers to hold fast to His rope, and that rope is dangling from the sky and we should all find it and hold on to it, and even better climb up to heaven to see Allah!!
    Laa Hawla Wala Quwatha Illah Billah
    Narrated An-Nu'man bin Bashir:

    I heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'Both legal and illegal things are evident but in between them there are doubtful (suspicious) things and most of the people have no knowledge about them. So whoever saves himself from these suspicious things saves his religion and his honor. And whoever indulges in these suspicious things is like a shepherd who grazes (his animals) near the Hima (private pasture) of someone else and at any moment he is liable to get in it. (O people!) Beware! Every king has a Hima and the Hima of Allah on the earth is His illegal (forbidden) things. Beware! There is a piece of flesh in the body if it becomes good (reformed) the whole body becomes good but if it gets spoilt the whole body gets spoilt and that is the heart.


    Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 2 :: Hadith 49

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    Hmm... it looks like Nour is going to be OWNED again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Zayd al-Atharee View Post
    Someone wrote the following in relation the attributes such as Yad and Wajh etc. Can someone refute it and help put my heart at ease, Jazaakallahu Khair.

    Is willing, knowing, seeing, hearing something physical and a body ? NO
    They are abstract attributes. We know because we have brain thus the BRAIN is physical not the KNOWLEDGE ITSELF. We see because we have eyes thus the EYES is the physical not the SEEING itself. Hearing is with the ear thus the EAR is the physical not the HEARING itself. The meaning of these attributes aren't physical.

    Allah Sees without having an Eye and you can't make analogy by saying Allah has Hands without being physical or limb because 'Seeing' itself is not physical meaning however real Hand itself means physical and body part limb etc.

    You guys are making a grave mistake for example by saying we sit with our bodies so Allah sits without body because His sitting is unlike our sitting' But what is sitting and it's meaning ? Sitting is to rest with the torso vertical and the body supported on the buttocks. So if you say sitting without body then this is not sitting anymore so you should not interpret it in something and at the same time NEGATE THE MEANING of that interpretation. That's why you guys are doing tashbeeh you attribute the meanings to Allah what applies to the creation.

    ok, when he states the same for al-baihaqi, al-'ash'ari, al-baqilaani and as al-juwayni said the early scholars of the 'ash'aris and other then we may believe him as being sincere to the truth, so say they are making tashbeeh and then he might be taken seriously
    "Sit with one whose limbs address you, not his mouth." Sahl ibn `Abd Allah ibn Yunus, Abu Muhammad al-Tustari (d. 283), may Allah be well-pleased with him.

    : " " , : :

    Ibn 'Umar said: "And do not let your words be in excess to your actions", Al-Baihaqi: Shu'ab al-Imaan and Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani: Al-Isaabah fee Taymeez as-Sahaaba



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    Salam aleykum

    I spoke to some Bralwi believers in Wahdatul Wujud, and they said limiting Allah' essence is Kufr so Allah is everywhere...

    Now creation being an illusion for these people mean that creation imagines seeing creation, while there is in fact none but Allah, so in fact creation does not exist, only Allah exists and the image of a creation is a mirage/hallucinatiion/illusion that comes in the brain of people...

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    Baarak Allahu feek for your hardwork, but I think you already refuted them. I can't believe they would quote Shee`a ahaadeeth to refute Ahl as-Sunnah wa al-Jamaa`a

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    "Noorudden" you are guilty of lying against Ali radiullah hu anhu.
    And say not concerning that which your tongues put forth falsely: This is lawful and this is forbidden, so as to invent lies against Allaah. Verily, those who invent lies against Allaah will never prosper. [al-Nahl 16:116].

    Syed Qutb (ra) when asked to seek pardon from nasser said
    Verily the index finger that testifies to the oneness of Allah in prayer utterly rejects to write even one letter that endorses the rule of the tyrant

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    This is the problem with Ahl al-Bid`a, they make up their `Aqeeda THEN they go looking for it in books.

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    I ask Allah Most High on His Throne above the seven heavens for His help in destroying this Jahmi belief of Him being nowhere
    Ameen.



    DISCLAIMER: Before you read any of my posts or accept any of my arguments, keep in mind that the above has been posted by a layman who, in most cases, would have been better off keeping silent.
    ~~~

    ۖ
    And [all] faces will be humbled before the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of existence.
    And he who carries injustice will have failed.
    [20:111]

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