ALLAHS ATTRIBUTES-SOME CLARIFICATION

[asharee_salafi]

Assalaamulekum,

About Allahs attributes. Which Im a bit confused upon.

Id like to ask.(Please answer only if you know, Abu Zubair you may want to have a crack at this?!.....{PLS}.......)

1. When we say that Allah rose over the throne...Does this mean that Allah is prone to change? If so does that mean that the arsh was above him? Since to move from one place to another entails that something is aobe him?

2.When I was with HT we learned that Allah cant have limits. If thats the case why has Allah got only 2 hands....Surely that would be an imperfection wouldnt it? How can Allah have a limit or imperfection in ''a manner that befits his majesty''. One couldnt say that Allah sneezes or coughs or cries in a manner that befits his majesty so why would this imperfection be in a manner that befits his majesty? I.e the fact that Allah 2 hands ONLY.(Uthaymeen states this)

3 we know that Allah is above the creation......But what is this statemnt from the scholars who are salafi when theys ay that Allah exists around the creation? Are they saying that the whole creation is ''in'' Allah . because in order to exist around something, that object must be in what ever it is. in this case Allah swt.

4. If one stands on the north pole and says Allah is above me then what about the man who stands on the south pole and says Allah is above me..............? Is Allah above and BELOW the creation?

Jazak ALLAH KHARUN.

Im nearly understanding the concept of Allahs siffat its just the above questions are a bit of a thorn in teh side of me .

Jazak ALLAH KHAIRUN AND PLEASE PRAY FOR ME.

AND NO COPY AND PASTES FROM ABU RUMAYSAH! lol

[Abu_Abdallah]

al_Salamu Alaikum wa-Rahmtullah,

Brother asharee_salafi said:

"When we say that Allah rose over the throne...Does this mean that Allah is prone to change?"

No. Allah's Rising/Establishment over the Throne does not necessiate change - for 'rising' with reference to the creation does entail change, while Allah, ta'ala, is outside His creation, and therefore this does not mean that He changes - far is Allah from what the weak slaves speculate about!

"If so does that mean that the arsh was above him? Since to move from one place to another entails that something is above him?"

Allah is above the heavens, made Istiwa' over His Throne - as He informed us. Movement from place to place does not necessiate Him, for He transcend His Creation - and therefore Intiqal and Haraka is not necessary for him. Whoever believes that Allah was below the Throne before Ascending it is innovator, and belies the Qur'an and the Sunnah which affirms Allah's Aboveness from any perspective - be He before he Ascended the Throne, or before He Descend in the 3rd part of the night to the lowest heaven or in any other matter in which Satan deludes him.
May Allah protect us from the deception of the devil!

And the brother in Islam said:

"When I was with HT we learned that Allah cant have limits. If thats the case why has Allah got only 2 hands....Surely that would be an imperfection wouldnt it? How can Allah have a limit or imperfection in ''a manner that befits his majesty''. One couldnt say that Allah sneezes or coughs or cries in a manner that befits his majesty so why would this imperfection be in a manner that befits his majesty? I.e the fact that Allah 2 hands ONLY.(Uthaymeen states this)"

-Is HT the group known as Hizb al-Tahrir? Whatever they say, or any other group for that matter, then only the scholars are authorities, and not 'parties', 'groups' or any other entity, except: the Salaf al-Salih from among the Companions, the Followers and does who followed them in goodness.
-HT denial that Allah has limits is based on speculation - and not any firm evidence in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Allah and His Prophet ordered us to affirm anything the Qur'an and the Sunnah affirms, and to deny anything these two sources deny. As for 'limits' then they can have meanings that suit Allah and meanings that dont suit Him. If you mean - as I understand from you - with 'limit' something which you, and others, understand as imperfection, then Allah is the Perfet, free from imperfection! Thus he is free from 'limits'.
-Allah's Two Hands are Perfect, as is His Speech, His Face, His Eyes etc. Who told you that the affirmation of Two Hands is 'surely.. an imperfection'?! That's a baatil deduction! Allah has Two Hands simply because He stated so, and His Prophet too, and the Salaf and the Righteous Khalaf also - and the Ahl al-Sunnah state this adding 'in a manner that befits Him' - and that's true.
-Whoever says: Allah cries in a matter that befits Him, or He sneezes in a matter that befits Him etc. then whoever adds such false analogies of Allah with the Creation then he's a Mushabbih without doubt! How can someone dares to state something about Allah, ta'ala, which He can't find in the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of the Prophet?! Or for that matter in the statements of the Salaf?! What difference is there between the Christians who say: Allah is the Father of Jesus - na'udhu billah - but 'in a manner that befits Him'?! For the Christians surely do not say that He is his natural father! Whoever calls and names Allah in a manner not named and called by the Qur'an and the Sunnah, either in word or meaning, then he's either an Mushabbih or Mu'attil - he surely is an innovator!

and:

"we know that Allah is above the creation......But what is this statemnt from the scholars who are salafi when theys ay that Allah exists around the creation? Are they saying that the whole creation is ''in'' Allah . because in order to exist around something, that object must be in what ever it is. in this case Allah swt."

Whoever said Allah, ta'ala, exists 'around the creation'? Where can the original statement be found who said this.

and finally the brother asked:

"If one stands on the north pole and says Allah is above me then what about the man who stands on the south pole and says Allah is above me..............? Is Allah above and BELOW the creation?"

SubhanAllah, to those who do not fear Allah as He must be feared! How can someone boldly ask such things when Allah, ta'ala, already said that's He's above the creation!? Wherever you stand, northpole, southpole, in the deepest of Hell, in the seventh heaven, in front of Allah, flying etc. you are always below Him, who's the Great, the Highest, for Allah is Above His Creation - in any circumstance and from any perspective..

High is Allah above what the people say about Him!

May Allah grant you fear! Amin.

[Abuz Zubair]

as-Salaamu 'Alaikum,

Bro Sharif Abu Ja'far, are you *the* Sharif Abu Ja'far who dealt with Abu Ja'far al-Kadhab on HTS? If so, then we are more then delighted to have you on this forum!

JazakumAllahu Khairan for your concern and efforts in defence of the true Sunni creed.

I am a bit overwhelmed with projects at the moment, and find it difficult to get some time out to reply to some of the pressing posts pertaining to sifat, asharis etc... I am sure you must have written a lot about most of these issues asked, so I guess you can share some of my burden?

Bro Ashari_Salafi, since Sharif Abu Ja'far is here, you need me not anymore! Direct all your questions to him InshaaAllah

wasalam

[asharee_salafi]

Assalaamulekum.

Jazak ALLAH KHAIR FOR YOUR REPLY abu jafar.

1.So what i deduced from your post was that Allah is beyond change and beyond movement.

For instance we accept that Allah desecnds to the lowest heaven without him leaving the throne or being part of his creation.

so likewise we accept that fact that Allah went over the throne(not really rose) and when Allah went over the throne it didnt in any way inply movement,change or the arhs being above Allah. Am I right?

2.YES MAY allah grant us all fear ameen. I asked those questions out of sincerity not because I lacked fear of ALLAH. Indeed the reason why I did ask was because im petrified of any kind of ''comparing'' Allah with the creation. Jazak Allahu Khairun.



3.The point about the earth being a sphere and saying Allah is above me while standing on the top of the earth and standing a the bottom of the earth and saying ALLAH IS ABOVE ME. I didnt get it since it dont make sense. how can Allah be above and below at the same time? surely nothing can overshadow him ?

4.how do we interpret the hadeeth of Muhammed peace and blessingse be upon him when he is quoted as saying there is ''nothing above him and nothing before him'' Imam bayhaqi quotes this hadeeth and if My memeory serves me correct Ibn taymiyyah quotes it in aqeedah wasitiyah. The asharees use the afformentioned to say that Allah doesnt have a ''place''

5. And lastly- We know that ALlah is beyond parts in terms of separation-Abu zubair said on on his previous posst that Allah ant have parts in that sense because he terms himself AHAD.

so if Allah is AHAD then what about the fact that we know the Quran is the word of Allah ,i.e it has a set number of sentences........it is in the arabic language.....Allah himself will follow the rules of arabic by saying 'bismillah..' . My question is How can that be eternal? To what extent are the asharees correct to say that the Quran is an expression of the actual eternal Kalam of ALLAH.The speech of Allah has a BEGINING AND END. HOW CAN ALLAH INFINITE ATTRIBUTES HAVE BEGINNINGS ABSCRIBED TO THEM

I know some salfees say they way 'Allah spoke the quran is different to teh way we speak........' But how is that so since Allah will no doubt has said ''bismillah...'' I hope you get my point AND i HAVENT CONFUSED YOU MORE.

Im inshALlah gonna send you a personal pm aswell so be on a lookout.(pls)

[Abu_Abdallah]

Originally Posted by Abuz Zubair

as-Salaamu 'Alaikum,

Bro Sharif Abu Ja'far, are you *the* Sharif Abu Ja'far who dealt with Abu Ja'far al-Kadhab on HTS? If so, then we are more then delighted to have you on this forum!

JazakumAllahu Khairan for your concern and efforts in defence of the true Sunni creed.

I am a bit overwhelmed with projects at the moment, and find it difficult to get some time out to reply to some of the pressing posts pertaining to sifat, asharis etc... I am sure you must have written a lot about most of these issues asked, so I guess you can share some of my burden?

Bro Ashari_Salafi, since Sharif Abu Ja'far is here, you need me not anymore! Direct all your questions to him InshaaAllah

wasalam

al-Salamu alikum wa-RAhmatullahi wa-Barakatuhu,

Yes, I am. May Allah reward you for your efforts!

wa-Salam!

[Abuz Zubair]

As-Salaamu ‘Alaikum brother Ash’ari_Salafi,

When the Ash’aris say that Allah is beyond change, we need to understand what they exactly mean by that, how they came to that conclusion, and whether or not they are right in saying that.

To objectively understand where the Ash’aris are coming from, we must look back in the history to see why they say what they say, for most of the pseudo Ash’aris we have today do not have a clue about their own doctrine, and hence they cannot be expected to know our – the true Sunni – doctrine.

The Philosophers would claim that the world is eternal just like Allah, because Allah has eternally been the Creator, and that necessitates that the creation has co-existed with Allah. Meaning, the creation of Allah came parallel to Allah’s act of creation. This is out right Kufr.

To challenge this argument, and to prove Allah’s existence, and therefore the truth of the Prophet – SallAllahu ‘alaihi wa-sallam – the Ash’aris came up with their argument to prove that the world is NOT eternal, and that it has a beginning (Haadith), and the perfect cause to bring it into being is the Creator. Hence, to prove this argument, they presented the following set of arguments.

1) The Creator’s existence cannot be proven, except by proving the created-ness of the world.

2) The created-ness of the world cannot be proven, except by proving the beginning of that which the world is made of, and that is bodies (al-Jism).

3) They then proved the created-ness of bodies by claiming that all bodies undergo change/events (Hawadith, such as motion, and rest).

4) They then said that motion and rest, both have beginnings.

5) They then said that anything that undergoes change/events (such as motion and rest), must have a beginning.

6) They also added that anything which does not precede all the change/events also has a beginning (Haadith).

7) They then finally denied the infinite regress of events in the past (Hawadith la awwala laha)

The problems we have with this method of proving God’s existence is:

1) This isn’t the only way of proving Allah’s existence and eternity, and the finite nature and the created-ness of the world. The Ash’aris – in clear opposition to their Imam, made this argument as the only way to prove God’s eternity and created-ness of the world.

2) We contest their method for many reasons, and to start with because we believe in infinite regress of events in the past (al-Tasalsul fil-Madhi), as well as in future, because it is nonsensical to affirm such for the future and deny it for the past, as the Ash'aris do.

The Ash’aris, upon hearing this from us, accuse us of Kufr, because to them affirming infinite regress in the past is agreeing with the philosophers in their doctrine of eternity of the world.

We disagree by saying that infinite regress in the past does not necessitate that the world is eternal, because it is equally nonsensical for the Philosophers to believe that the creation co-existed with the Creator. Rather, logic dictates that the creation comes only after the act of creation. Therefore, Allah’s act of creation precedes the creation, which makes the creation (Hadith), that which has a beginning.

Secondly, we say to the Ash’aris that you rejected infinite regress in the past and as a result, claimed that eternally Allah wasn’t able to create (mumtani’), but then it became ‘possible’ (mumkin) for Him to create, without any apparent cause (Tarjih bila murajjih).

This is while the Ash’aris believe that anything which is mumkin (i.e. something, which could equally exist and not exist), there must be a murajjih (determinant) to tilt the balance in favour of existence, otherwise, it forever remains non-existent. So we ask them, what is the ‘determinant’ here which made it ‘possible’ for Allah to create before which He wasn’t able to?

They say in reply that the ‘determinant’ was Allah’s eternal will, while that which he willed was delayed and came much later, in spite of Him having the ability to bring it about.

We say in response, that this argument, like all your previous arguments, is illogical. Because, when there is a will combined with the ability to carry it out, then that which is willed must come about there and then, and not later. For if it does not come about, there and then, then that is either due to lack of ability or lack of will, where as Allah does what He Wills when He Wills, and He has the power to do everything, which means, that which he Wills, instantly comes about without a delay, as He says: kun fa yakun – be! And it is!

Therefore, Ahlus-Sunnah reject the Philosophers’ argument, that that which is willed co-exists with the will, just as they reject the Ash’ari argument, that that which is willed is delayed and comes much after the actual will. Rather, we say that that which is willed comes straight after His Will and is not delayed at all, for whatever Allah wills, happens, and whatever He does not Will, does not happen.

Therefore, once we understand the issue of infinite regress in the past, and therefore affirming that Allah has a Will, and that He does what He likes and WHEN He likes, then the whole concept of ‘change’ taking place in Allah becomes easy to understand.

In fact, isn’t it easier just to believe in what Allah has informed us in His Book, that He becomes Angry and Hates the Kafir for his Kufr, and becomes Pleased and Loves him when He becomes a Muslim? Or what we know from the Sunnah that Allah will become so angry on the Day of Judgement, in a way He has never been this angry before, nor will have ever become this angry later? What is it all if not ‘change’?

With respect to Allah’s movement when He rose over the throne, or when He descends to the lowest heaven, then things like directions and leaving or occupying of space, and such factors are relevant more to the creation. To claim that affirming Allah rising over the throne, necessitates that he moves and leaves a space for another, is in fact the very Tashbih.

I think the Hadeeth you are referring to is: He is the first, with nothing before Him, and the Last with nothing after Him, the Dhahir (i.e. the most high) with nothing above Him, and al-Batin (hidden/closest), there is nothing closer to us than Him. The Hadeeth is a proof against them, and not for them. Plus, what’s Quran and Sunnah got to do with their believes? Read their books on creed, you can hardly count the verses and Ahadeeth on one hand.

When Ahl al-Sunnah say Ahad, meaning, he does not separate into ‘parts’ etc, as if He is composed of various different parts, and hence, He is in need of those parts. Rather He is not in need of anything. However, for Allah to have various attributes, like life, will, knowledge etc, or a Face, Two Eyes, etc, does not mean He is composed of 'parts'. As for your question regarding the speech of Allah being composed of letters and words, one after the other, how can it be then eternal; if you understand our argument about infinite regress of events in the past, you will understand how Allah’s words are eternal. In fact, to claim otherwise as the Mu’tazilas do is clear cut Kufr. The Quran that we have is the uncreated speech of Allah, which is composed of Suras, verses, words and letters. This has been the creed of Imam Ahmad, and the rest of Ahl al-Sunnah, and this is one of the strongest proof for the Sunni doctrine in support of infinite regress of events in past and future.

wasalam

[asharee_salafi]

Assalaamulekum.

Jazak Allahu*******Khairun Abu Zubair. InshAllah I will print this off and read it properly and give any feedback. But*******I had a quick read and its really beneficial. I see where you are coming from and when you said gave the asharee history of the createdness of the world was very accurate, indeed Its a really good insight in to how they think (and to a certain extent myself!)

Thanks Again.

*******

[WM]

as-Salamu 'alaykum,

I don't know about the other brothers, but Abu Zubair's philosophical stuff just made my brain turn to mush.******* I am a bit slow on this kind of thing...what is the meaning of the "infinite regress of events in the past"?!******* Reading this just convinces me of my previous understanding:

- The philosophers and their ilk needlessly complicate simple*******things**************

- It all would have been a lot easier if people had just stuck to the Sunna

- The ash'ariyya, like Abu Zubair said, based their math-hab on intellectual principles, and they used this framework to disregard the sunna and interpret it*******any way they wanted

Abu Zubair, can you tell us what books we would need to read (Arabic or otherwise) to understand the situation?******* And if possible, could you simplify what you said for normal people like me?

Jazak Allah Khair

[Abuz Zubair]

Brother Muhaqiq,

For one to understand these philosophical arguments does not make anyone more intelligent than others. Rather, these philosophers and mutakllimun are the most stupid, and the most narrow-minded of Allah’s creation, primarily because they cannot think beyond time and space, finite and infinity, bodies, atoms and accidents.

Plus, such philosophical arguments are not understood by the modern day pseudo Ash’aris, so how can then the Ash’aris oblige the Muslim masses to prove God’s existence through their silly methods?

But anyway, infinite regress of events, meaning an event caused by another event, which is caused by another event, to infinity. For example, you were born of two parents, who were born of two parents, etc until infinity (which is obviously false). This is called infinite regress of events in the past (al-Tasalsul fil-Madhi). For Paradise and Hell to exist eternally in the future is called: infinite regress of events in the future (al-Tasalsul fil-Mustaqbal).

The Philosophers argue that the world has no beginning, and is eternal like Allah, due to infinite regress of events in the past with respect to Allah, since Allah has eternally been the Creator. The Ash’aris said in their refutation of the Philosophers that it is impossible for events to regress infinitely in the past, and the events must end at the ‘perfect cause’ which triggered all these events, and that ‘perfect cause’ being Allah. (‘perfect cause’ meaning that which causes something else to come about, but doesn’t need a cause for itself to have come about).

But this put the Ash’aris in another problem, and that is, if Allah has been the Creator eternally, then what actually caused the creation to come about at a specific time? This became problematic with another Ash’ari principle which they used to prove God’s existence, which says:

That which is equally possible to exist and not exist (i.e. the world), there must be a cause to bring it into existence, and that cause is none other than Allah.

So, on one hand they said that the cause must be Allah, and yet on the other hand, they said that Allah’s will has been eternal, yet the creation only came about ages after Allah’s will at certain time, so what was then the cause for the world to come about at that particular time?

To that, the Ash’aris responded by saying: Allah had willed eternally that at certain point in time the world would come about. However, Allah wasn’t able to bring it about, up until the moment the world came about, which is when the will was combined with the ability which resulted in the world.

What incredible intellectual garbage!

It makes more sense to believe, as Ahl al-Sunnah have believed that Allah has been the Creator and the Doer of whatever He likes, whenever He likes – in the past and in the future. They therefore affirmed for Allah infinite regress of events in the past and in the future. At the same time, they refuted the Philosophers who said that, this means that the creation has always co-existed with Allah from eternity; by saying that when Allah creates, straight after that the creation comes about, and hence everything Allah creates at whatever instance in time, has a beginning, and this refutes the argument of the Philosophers that the world is eternal. Indeed, if they were to say that the world is eternal, then that means nothing actually ever came about, and our senses acknowledge the falsity of such belief because we witness things coming into being from non-existence.

Important things to note here is that not everything that comes into being (Haadith) is created, but everything that is created comes into being (Haadith).

This is why Ahl al-Sunnah say that the Sifat of Allah are of three types:

1) The Sifat of Allah’s essence, which are eternal, such as His Life.

2) The Sifat of Allah’s actions, which are not eternal, such as Allah rising over the Throne, or descending to the lowest heaven, or coming on the Day of Judgement to settle disputes and Judge.

3) The Sifat that are composed of both, eternal aspects and non-eternal aspects, such as the attribute of Kalam, for Allah has eternally been a Mutakallim, meaning He has eternally possessed the quality of speech, while His Speech is not eternal, because He spoke to Musa at a particular time, after He created him. This also proves that just because something is not eternal is not necessarily created, due to the possibility of infinite regress of events in the past. Hence, the Quran being the speech of Allah, or Allah’s words to Musa, although they are not eternal, but they are not created either, for they are from the sifat of Allah, and Allah is not created, and likewise His Sifat are not created.

I hope this explains, and if it doesn’t, don’t worry about it, for it will not be of any benefit to any of us in the hereafter.

If you want to study Kalam from the Sunni perspective then you should study Sharh al-Aqidah al-Tahawiyah by Ibn Abil-‘Izz al-Hanafi. However, you probably need to study it with someone who understands Kalam himself to be able to interpret the Sharih’s refutation of various Kalami arguments.

wasalam

[asharee_salafi]

Assalaamulekum

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I get what Brother Abu Zubair is saying.

I have to admit I did read it about 4 times over, but what your saying makes sense.......(well lets just say *******im 90%******* there! )

InshAllah Id like to come back to you one I have printed all that you have said and fully digested it.

I think its really good what you wrote, despite being philosophical it is neccesary that someone delves with these issues because I know from my personal self that what he said was actually what used to be on my mind i.e I came to the same ashari dilemma

Im still learning

Jazak Allahu Khairun and Assalaamulekum.