Answer to that Asharis and Maturidis contradict themself with affirming attributes

[AbuNaim]

Claim:

You (the Asharis, Maturidis) contradict yourselves. You affirm for Allah Azza wa Jalla Life, Power, Will, Knowledge, Speech, Hearing and Sight, while making Ta’wil of Istiwa’, Nuzul, Maji’, Ityan, Wajh, Yad, Saq, Qadam, Janb, ‘Ain, and relocation in (various) levels. The basic rule with regards to the attributes is one, so if you affirm the seven attributes, what prevents you from affirming the rest? What is the difference? This is nothing less than contradiction.

Response:

The response to this consists of two points:

Point one:

We say that Istiwa’, Nuzul, Maji’, Ityan, Wajh, Yad, Saq, Qadam, Janb, ‘Ain, and relocation in (various) levels are not from the attributes. The claim that they are attributes is deception and this is shown by three things.

1.Every possesor of intellect knows that these things mentioned such as Istiwa’ with the meaning of sitting, Nuzul, Maji’, and Wajh and its likes are closer to the attributes of bodies (Ajsam) than (the attributes of) Will, Power, and Knowledge.

2.These things that we mentioned are considered parts according the people of the language and not adjectives (Awsaf). So they are explicit in indication composition (Tarkib), and composition is for bodies. So your mentioning of the word Awsaf (adjectives-attributes) is deception. All of the people of the language do not understand from Wajh (face), ‘Ain (eye), Janb (side), and Qadam (foot) except that which are composed parts (Ajza’). They do not understand from Istiwa’ that means sitting except that it is a manner of placing something solid on a place. They (do not understand) from Maji’, Ityan, and Nuzul except movement that is particular to bodies. As for Will, Power, Life and its likes, they are the attributes of the essence (Sifat adh-Dhat)

3.If these above mentioned things were presented to a normal person be it a woman, a child, a non-arab, or a common layman arab and the generality of people, would they understand from Istiwa, Nuzul, Maji’, Ityan, Wajh, Yad, Saq, Qadam, Janb, ‘Ain, and relocation in (various) levels, and others that i have mentioned the meaning of a body (Jism), and would he conceptualize that in himself or not? If he responds saying that he does not understand from that anything save the meaning of a body, then that is enough for you of sin with Allah and misguiding the likes of these (common people) and encouraging them to beleive in Tajsim that you yourself claim with your tongue to not say. So what is actualized from you is misguiding the majority of the world. As for you in yourself, if you were lying in your censure of that then you have gathered lying along with corruption in creed. If you were true in your claim then you have decieved yourself and imagined a distintion for yourself.

Point two:

Assuming that these things mentioned such as Istiwa’, Nuzul, Maji’, Ityan, Wajh, Yad, Saq, Qadam, Janb, and ‘Ain are attributes like Will, Power, and Knowledge, then we say:

1.Will, power, and knowledge within us is two matters. One of them is an accident established in a body (’Ard Qaim bil Jism), and Allah Ta’ala is far removed from that. The second matter is the meanings that relate to what is willed, to what is in (ones power), and what is known (al-Ma’ani al-Muta’alliqah bil Murad wal Maqdur wal Ma’lum). And the Lord Subhanahu wa Ta’ala is described with those things and they are not restricted to bodies and for that reason we affirm them for Allah Azza wa Jall

2.Likewise with Istiwa, Nuzul, Maji’, Ityan, Wajh, Yad, Saq, Qadam, Jamb, and ‘Ain. With these, they are two matters. One, is that they are parts which is clear in denoting composition and Allah Ta’ala is clearly far removed from that. The second is the meaning that are related to these things. They are explained according to the context they appear in among the Ayat and Ahadith as is well known. We affirm this for Allah Azza wa Jall, so for example, Istiwa is explained as managing the affairs, Yad is explained as power or bounty or generosity according to the context and we affirm this for Allah Azza wa Jall as well in the remainder (of the words) mentioned. And Allah is the source of success.

(as-Sayf as-Saqil Imam as-Subki)

[Abu'l 'Eyse]

point 3, I wonder if the same applies to the 'ash'aris who affirmed these attributes 'ala dhahir?

anyways a response to al-Subki


http://forums.islamicawakening.com/s...=4536#post4536

[AbuNaim]

point 3, I wonder if the same applies to the 'ash'aris who affirmed these attributes 'ala dhahir?

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I dont care, im not a Ashari.

[Abu'l 'Eyse]

so what was subki?

[AbuNaim]

so what was subki?

Ashari.

[Abu'l 'Eyse]

so what he wrote, does he apply to his collegues as well?

[AbuNaim]

so what he wrote, does he apply to his collegues as well?

did he claim so?

[Abu'l 'Eyse]

i'm askng you, this would be fair right? that the major 'ash'ari masters who affirmed these seefat 'ala dhahir should face the same criticism as the others from the hanbalis and athariyyah in general experianced

[AbuNaim]

i'm askng you, this would be fair right? that the major 'ash'ari masters who affirmed these seefat 'ala dhahir should face the same criticism as the others from the hanbalis and athariyyah in general experianced

who are these major scholars, and how many are they in number?

[Abu'l 'Eyse]

what does their number have to do with it?

al-Baihaqi, al-Baqillani, Al-qushayri, al-Ash'ari, et al major or minor 'ash'ari scholars?

the number was great enough for al-Juwayni (al-Irshad) and ibn abdus-salaam (Qawâ'id al-Ahkâm fi Masâlih al-Anâm) to make mention of the ikhtilaf!