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Ashoora meant for fasting or flagellation?

This is a discussion on Ashoora meant for fasting or flagellation? within the Islamic Theology and Ideology forums, part of the Islamic Knowledge category; Many times when debating with rawafid they accuse sunnis of celeberating martydom of al-Hussein (ra) and following the sunnah of ...

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    Default Ashoora meant for fasting or flagellation?

    Many times when debating with rawafid they accuse sunnis of celeberating martydom of al-Hussein (ra) and following the sunnah of bani ummayads by fasting on 10th of Ashoora every year. To find out the truth I shall only quote narrations found in rafidi books.

    ========================== ===========

    Fasting of Ashoora by infallibles


    On behalf of Abu Al-Hassan (as) that he said : "Rasool Allah (saw) fasted on the day of Ashoura."

    1- Tahdeeb Al-Ahkam 4/29,
    2- Alistibsar 2/134,
    3- Wasael Al-Shia 7/337,
    4- Jaame3 Ahadeeth Al-Shia 9/475,
    5- Alhadaeq Alnadhera 13/370-371,
    6- Seyam Ashoura 112.



    -----------

    Narrated from Jaffar from his father (as), that he said: "Fasting of Ashoura is forgiveness of one year sin."

    1- Tahdeeb Al-Ahkam 4/300, Alistibsar 2/134,
    2- Jaame3 Ahadeeth Al-Shia 9/475,
    3- Alhadaeq Alnadhera 13/371,
    4- Jamal luddin mentioned it in 'Fasting of Ashoora page 112,
    5- Al-Kashani 7/13
    6- Hur in Wasael Al-Shia 7/337



    -----------

    And on behalf of Al-Sadiq (rh) that he said: "Whoever is able to fast (month of) Muharram, then his fasting shall protect him from every sin."

    1- Wasael Al-shia 7/347,
    2- Alhadaeeq Alnadhera 13/377,
    3- Jaame3 Ahadeeth Al-shia 9/474.



    -----------

    The Messenger of Allah said: “The best prayer after the obligatory prayers is the one which is prayed in middle of the night, and the best fasting after Ramadan is the fasting the month known as Muharram."

    1- Wasael Al-shia 7/347,
    2- Alhadaeeq Alnadhera 13/377,
    3- Jaame3 Ahadeeth Al-shia 9/474.


    -----------

    And Ali (ra) that he said: "Fast on the day of Ashoora 9th and 10th for substitution, for it is an expiation for the the past year, and if someone of you eats (by mistake) should continue his fasting."

    1- Al-Haj Hussein Al-Nuri Tabarsi in Mustadrak Al-Wasael 1/594,
    2- Haj Brujardi in Jaame3 Ahadeeths Al-Shia 9/475.



    -----------

    And Ibn Abbas (ra) that he said: "If one see the crescent of Muharram then start counting, and when he wake up on 9th, wakes on fast", (the narrator) said: And this is how Muhammad (saw) fasted: (he replied): "Yes".

    1- Al-Tusi in Iqbaal Al-Amal page 554
    2- Hur Al-Ameli in Wasael Al-Shia 7/347
    3- Al-Haj Nuri Tabarsi in Mustadrak Al-Wasael 1/594
    4- Jaame3 ahadeeths Al-Shia 9/475



    -----------

    Rafidah did not stop at this in praise of Ashoora, but they even recorded fabricated narration in support of this month.


    Shaykh of cult known by Rafidah as – Shaykh Abu Jaffar Muhammad Bin Al-Hassan Al-Tusi narrates on behave of (infallible) Abu Jaffar who supposed to have said:

    "The Ark settled on Mount Joodi on Ashoora so Nuh (as) ordered those who were with him among mankind and Jinn to fast that day. Abu Jaffar said: "Do you know which day that was?" That was the day on which Allah accepted repentance of Adam (as) and Hawa, and this is the day when the sea got split for Bani Isreal and Fir'aun and those with him were dawned, this is the day when Musa (as) got victory over Fir'aun, and this is the day Ibrahim (as) born, and this is the day on which Allah accepted the repentance of people of Yunus, and this is the day Isa Ibn Maryam (as) born.
    (Tahdeeb Al-Ahkam by Tusi 4/300)


    Whereas Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (rahimahullah) mentioned this hadeeths and called it fabrication.

    "No hadeeth of this nature was known during the best centuries......They also narrated reports concerning the supposed virtues of praying on the day of Aashoorah and other reports saying that on the day of 'Aashooraa' Adam (alaihi as-salaam) repented, the Ark settled on Mount Joodi, Yoosuf (alaihi as-salaam) returned to Ya'qoob (alaihi as-salaam), Ibraaheem (alaihi as-salaam) was saved from the fire, the ram was provided for sacrifice instead of Ismaa'eel (alaihi as-salaam), and so on."


    ========================== ===========

    Finally

    The narrations that encourage rawafid to fast these days came from realiable source (according to their standard) while those which forbid fasting these days came from unauthentic sources as stated by their own scholar Al-Sheikh Al-Haaj Al-Sayed Muhammed Redha Al-Husseini Al-Ha’eri in his book ‘Najat al-Ummah fee Iqamat al-Azaa Ala al-Hussein wal A’emma page 145-146-148, printed in Iran-Qum 1413 hijri’
    “If I had ten arrows in my possession, I would throw one of them at the Romans, and I would throw the other nine at these tyrannical Fatimids.”
    Imam Abu Bakr Al-Nabulsi

    Scanned Books: Who Killed Al-Hussein?

    Video: Rafidah Ayatullats shameful admition.

    Al-Hussein said in one of his invocations upon shia: “O Allah if you give them enjoyment for a while..then disintegrate them into groups…and divide their path…and never ever accept from them leadership…for verily they called us for help…then they transgress upon us and killed us.”(Al-Irshaad by Al-Mufid page 241)



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    Default Re: Ashoora meant for fasting or flagellation?

    Assalamu Aleykum

    Their ayatullat al-khuï said the same thing in his book al-mustanab al-urwa al-wuthqa u-of-islam.net/uofislam/maktaba/Fiqh/mostanad1/al-soum/02/a305.htm

    فالروايات الناهية غير نقية السند برمتها، بل هي ضعيفة بأجمعها، فليست لدينا رواية معتبرة يعتمد عليها ليحمل المعارض على التقية كما صنعه صاحب الحدائق. واما الروايات المتضمنة للامر واستحباب الصوم في هذا اليوم فكثيرة، مثل صحيحة القداح: " صيام يوم عاشوراء كفارة سنة " وموثقة مسعدة بن صدقة: " صوموا للعاشوراء التاسع والعاشر فانه يكفر ذنوب سنة " (2)، ونحوها غيرها، وهو مساعد للاعتبار نظرا إلى المواساة مع أهل بيت الوحي وما لا قوه في هذا اليوم العصيب من جوع وعطش وساير الآلام والمصائب العظام التي هي أعظم مما تدركه الافهام والاوهام. فالاقوى استحباب الصوم في هذا اليوم من حيث هو كما ذكره في الجواهر أخذا بهذه النصوص السليمة

    hadiths saying that it's mustahab to fast during ashura are sahih according to their standard, and hadith forbidding to fast during ashura are weak.

    they follow ahlelbayt al abyad, not ahlelbayt ar rassul

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    Default Re: Ashoora meant for fasting or flagellation?

    Another exposition of the fact that the rawafid don't even follow their own books and make tahreef of them as well
    "Sit with one whose limbs address you, not his mouth." Sahl ibn `Abd Allah ibn Yunus, Abu Muhammad al-Tustari (d. 283), may Allah be well-pleased with him.

    قال إبن عمر: "ولا يكن في قولك فضل على فعلك" ,أخرج البيهقي: شعب الإيمان وابن حجر العسقلاني: الإصابة في تمييز الصحابة

    Ibn 'Umar said: "And do not let your words be in excess to your actions", Al-Baihaqi: Shu'ab al-Imaan and Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani: Al-Isaabah fee Taymeez as-Sahaaba



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    Default Re: Ashoora meant for fasting or flagellation?

    Assalamu aleykum akhi Umar

    Could you post arabic textes of these hadith please ?

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    Default Re: Ashoora meant for fasting or flagellation?

    عن أبي الحسن عليه السلام أنه قال: {{صام رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم يوم عاشوراء}}
    [تهذيب الأحكام (4/29) الاستبصار (2/134)، الوافي (7/13)، وسائل الشيعة (7/337)، جامع أحاديث الشيعة (9/475)، الحدائق الناضرة (13/370-371)، صيام عاشوراء (ص 112)].


    عن جعفر عن أبيه عليهما السلام أنه قال: [[صيام يوم عاشوراء كفارة سنة]]
    [ تهذيب الأحكام (4/300)، الاستبصار (2/134)، جامع أحاديث الشيعة (9/475)، الحدائق الناضرة (13/371)، صيام عاشوراء (ص 112)، الوافي (7/13)، وسائل الشيعة (7/337)].


    وعن الصادق رحمه الله قال: [[من أمكنه صوم المحرم فإنه يعصم صاحبه من كل سيئة]]
    [وسائل الشيعة (7/347)، الحدائق الناضرة (13/377)، جامع أحاديث الشيعة (9/474)].


    وعن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم قال: {إن أفضل الصلاة بعد الصلاة الفريضة الصلاة في جوف الليل، وإن أفضل الصيام من بعد شهر رمضان صوم شهر الله الذي يدعونه المحرم}
    [وسائل الشيعة (7/347)، الحدائق الناضرة (13/377)، جامع أحاديث الشيعة (9/474)].



    عن علي عليه السلام قال: {{صوموا يوم عاشوراء التاسع والعاشر احتياطاً، فإنه كفارة السنة التي قبله، وإن لم يعلم به أحدكم حتى يأكل فليتم صومه}}
    [مستدرك الوسائل (1/594)، جامع أحاديث الشيعة (9/475)].



    وعن ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما قال: {{إذا رأيت هلال المحرم فاعدد، فإذا أصبحت من تاسعه فأصبح صائماً قلت ( أي الراوي ):كذلك كان يصوم محمد صلى الله عليه وآله؟ قال: نعم}}
    [إقبال الأعمال (ص 554)، وسائل الشيعة (7/347)، مستدرك الوسائل (1/594)، جامع أحاديث الشيعة (9/475)].


    ------------
    Rafidi priest authenticated narration that encourage fasting and weaken those which forbid fasting.

    وتأمل أن روايات صوم عاشوراء جاءت من طرق الشيعة بأسانيد معتبرة، في حين جاءت الروايات الناهية عن صومه بأسانيد ضعيفة، وقد اعترف بهذا الشيخ الحاج السيد محمد رضا الحسيني الحائري في كتابه: نجاة الأمة في إقامة العزاء على الحسين والأئمة. [صفحة (145، 146، 148) طبع قم إيران (1413هـ)].
    Last edited by umar bin khatab; 29th December 2009 at 04:39 AM.
    “If I had ten arrows in my possession, I would throw one of them at the Romans, and I would throw the other nine at these tyrannical Fatimids.”
    Imam Abu Bakr Al-Nabulsi

    Scanned Books: Who Killed Al-Hussein?

    Video: Rafidah Ayatullats shameful admition.

    Al-Hussein said in one of his invocations upon shia: “O Allah if you give them enjoyment for a while..then disintegrate them into groups…and divide their path…and never ever accept from them leadership…for verily they called us for help…then they transgress upon us and killed us.”(Al-Irshaad by Al-Mufid page 241)



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    Default Re: Ashoora meant for fasting or flagellation?

    Barak Llahu fik

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    Default Re: Ashoora meant for fasting or flagellation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Kulayni View Post
    Assalamu Aleykum

    Their ayatullat al-khuï said the same thing in his book al-mustanab al-urwa al-wuthqa u-of-islam.net/uofislam/maktaba/Fiqh/mostanad1/al-soum/02/a305.htm

    فالروايات الناهية غير نقية السند برمتها، بل هي ضعيفة بأجمعها، فليست لدينا رواية معتبرة يعتمد عليها ليحمل المعارض على التقية كما صنعه صاحب الحدائق. واما الروايات المتضمنة للامر واستحباب الصوم في هذا اليوم فكثيرة، مثل صحيحة القداح: " صيام يوم عاشوراء كفارة سنة " وموثقة مسعدة بن صدقة: " صوموا للعاشوراء التاسع والعاشر فانه يكفر ذنوب سنة " (2)، ونحوها غيرها، وهو مساعد للاعتبار نظرا إلى المواساة مع أهل بيت الوحي وما لا قوه في هذا اليوم العصيب من جوع وعطش وساير الآلام والمصائب العظام التي هي أعظم مما تدركه الافهام والاوهام. فالاقوى استحباب الصوم في هذا اليوم من حيث هو كما ذكره في الجواهر أخذا بهذه النصوص السليمة

    hadiths saying that it's mustahab to fast during ashura are sahih according to their standard, and hadith forbidding to fast during ashura are weak.

    they follow ahlelbayt al abyad, not ahlelbayt ar rassul
    Jazak Allah khair...even though Khoei agrees on authenticity of those narration he forbids his followers to act upo them. Wonder how did he reach to this conclusion? Then read the following:-

    - www.alkhoei.com/arabic/pages/book.php?bcc=747&itg=36&bi=69&s=ct
    - al-khoei.us/books/index.php?id=3258


    Quote Originally Posted by translation
    2558 Issue 2, under the heading ‘It is desirable for one who is fasting non obligatory fast to break his fast if his brother invites him to food, but it is said its dislike at that time (to continue fasting).

    And as for dislike - means little reward :- In certain places also: Of which: Fasting on Ashoura and fasting on Arafa for those who fear it will weaken him from making Dua which is better than fasting…

    In Hadaeq he was of the opinion upon its prohibition and that its legislation is prohibited like the day of Eid, (Hadaeeq 13: 371-377), because of narrations which we will mention, he mentioned that opposite to this was carried upon Taqiyya so that it may be in agreement with religion of common people (ahlul sunnah) from Bani Umayyah and others, wherein they used to seek blessings by fasting on this day in thankfulness to befall on Allah’s people (ahlul bait).

    And it is mentioned in number of text the prohibition from fasting this day, and even if they are many, there main source is from three narrations:

    First: What al-Kulaini narrated from sheikh al-Hussein – like what is in Wasael – or Al-Hasan – like in al-Kafi – bin Ali Al-Hashimi, and for this person there are four narrations he narrated in al-Wasael. But we consider all narrations as one, because in all chains there is one person and he is Al-Hashimi, and since he is not strengthened and no one mentioned with praise then by consensus condemned to be weak, also adding to this the weakness of the first Ibn Sinan…

    ------------------------------

    Second: Narration of Zurara* from Abi Jaffar and Abu Abdullah (as) who said: “Do not fast on the day of Ashura and on Arafa in Makka and in Medina and in your homeland and in Egypt.

    And this also has weak chain due to Shuaib and Yaseen al-Dhurair.

    Fasting on Arafa is definitely not prohibited, and Imam (as) fasted this day as what was reported in some narrations. Yes, it is disliked if it weakens one from making supplication, so probably fasting the day of Ashura is also disliked if it weakens one from carrying out Ashoura Rituals.

    ------------------------------

    Third: Narration of Al-Hussein bin Abi Ghandar from Abu Abdullah (as). This is also has very weak chain because of many unknown narrators and this is narration is weak by consensus.

    Yes there is one narration with sahih chain, and it is authentic, Zurara* and Muhammed bin Muslim both of them: That they asked Abu Jaffar Al-Baqir (as) about fasting on the day of Ashura, He said: It’s fasting was before Ramadan, but when the month of Ramadan was revealed it was abandoned.

    But as you see – it does not imply its prohibition, but at most it became abandoned and abrogated after month of Ramadan was revealed, perhaps it was compulsory before, then it was replaced by month of Ramadan as nature of replacement requires, it does not indicate negation of its desirability from a direction besides its permissible.

    Whatever the case, the narrations that prohibit are not authentic by its chain as a whole, rather they all are weak, and we do not have any authentic narration upon which we can relay to show opponents that it was carried upon taqiyya as author of Al-Hadaeeq tried to produce.

    Whereas the narrations that carry commandment and desirability to fast on this day then they are many, like: Sahih al-Qaddah: “Fasting on Ashoora expiation for one year sins”. (Wasael al-Shia 10/457, Abwab al-Saoum al-Mandoob 3/20)

    And Muwathaqat Mus’ad bin Saqada: “Fast on Ashoora 9th and 10th for verily it is expiation for one year sins”. (Wasael al-Shia 10/457, Abwab al-Saoum al-Mandoob 3/20), and other similar ones.
    The most strongest saying is desirability to fast on this day intrinsically as it is mentioned in Jawaher.

    ------------------------------

    Fourth: And as Al-Sheikh narrated in al-Misbah from Abdullah bin Sinan, said: I entered upon Abu Abdullah (as) on the day of Ashoura and tears coming out from his eyes like falling pearls, I said: “For what you are weeping?” He said: “Are you in negligence?! Didn’t you know that Hussain (as) hurt on this day?” I said: “What is your opinion on fasting?” He said: “Fast without making ‘Niyya’ and break the fast without rejoicing, and do not make it complete fast but break your fast an hour after Asar with water…( Wasael al-Shia 10/458, Abwab al-Saoum al-Mandoob 7/20).

    And as such the statement that it should be without ‘Niyya’, without completing the fast and requirement to break it after Asar, is clear proof for prohibition from fasting legal fast but it is formally holding oneself most of the day, imitating what happened to Al-Hussain and his pious family.
    Is this what you call a marja3? This idiot is not even good for been a book carrying donkey. According him there is not even a single authentic narration that supports prohibition rather there are many authentic narrations encourage fasting as well emphasis about the immense reward it brings. So how did he reach following conclusion?

    “…so probably fasting the day of Ashura is also disliked if it weakens one from carrying out Ashoura Rituals.”

    How can sunnah be abandoned for sake of bida?
    (See bida of ashoura as it is according to sayings of Messenger (saw) and ahlul bait found in their own books)

    As for him reaching to conclusion that it is not a normal fast by quoting a single narration, I say how can a single narration that contradicts many authentic narrations (according his own testimony) is sufficient proof on prohibiting normal fast? Also fasting half day is never known in Islam, never practised by Messenger (saw) or Ali, Hassan and Hussein (may Allah be pleased with them all).

    Quote Originally Posted by sistani
    1756. It is Makrooh to fast on 'Ashura (10th of Muharram). It is also Makrooh to fast on the day about which one is not sure whether it is the day of 'Arafa or Eid-ul-Azha.
    http://www.sistani.o...bid=59&pid=3014
    And we have another pig sistani who graduated under this donkey saying Makrooh without any reference to any narration as if islam is his father's property he can say to anything hala, haram makrooh!!
    “If I had ten arrows in my possession, I would throw one of them at the Romans, and I would throw the other nine at these tyrannical Fatimids.”
    Imam Abu Bakr Al-Nabulsi

    Scanned Books: Who Killed Al-Hussein?

    Video: Rafidah Ayatullats shameful admition.

    Al-Hussein said in one of his invocations upon shia: “O Allah if you give them enjoyment for a while..then disintegrate them into groups…and divide their path…and never ever accept from them leadership…for verily they called us for help…then they transgress upon us and killed us.”(Al-Irshaad by Al-Mufid page 241)



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    Default Re: Ashoora meant for fasting or flagellation?

    Salam

    The hadiths about fasting on Ashura are narrated in Bukhari, al Bidaya wa Nihaya, Sunan of Abu Dawood and Sahih Muslim.

    The apparent hadeeth of the Prohet saying you can fast on Ashura took place 3rd year of Hijra. The three narrators are: Abu Hurayrah, Musa Al Ashari, Muawiyah in Abu Sufyan and Ibn Abbas.

    Abu Hurayrah was four years old at the time.
    Musa Al Ashari was in Yemen.
    Abu Hurayrah was in Bahrain until 7th year after Hijra
    Muawiyah ibn Abu Sufyan became Muslim with his father 8th year after Hijrah.

    So how can we accept a hadeeth from these four sources??? Just like some sunni books are weak and trusted, there are also shia books that are considered weak and not trusted by the shias themselves. This includes the hadeeths quoted by the brothers before.

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    Default Re: Ashoora meant for fasting or flagellation?

    so why do great shia scholars like al khoei agrees on the authenticity of those narration? Secondly there should be a reason to say a hadees or book is weak. Just by saying its weak it will not become.

    Moreover are the "BOOKS" quoted as a whole considered weak by shias?

    Regarding sunni ahadees you said three narrators, but you made a mistake yourself by quoting the fourth narrator i.e ibn abbas(ra) and you didnt raised any of your prob with him.
    Sheikh-ul-Islam ibn Taymiyyah(rahimahullaah) said[/U] :[/B] "Refuting ahlul-bida' (the innovators) is a Jihad, to the extent that Yahyaa ibn Yahyaa (d.226H) said: 'Defence of the Sunnah is more excellent than Jihad in the path of Allah'" [Naqdul-Mataq wal-Kalaam]

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    Default Re: Ashoora meant for fasting or flagellation?

    Bump for rawafid...if there are any.
    “If I had ten arrows in my possession, I would throw one of them at the Romans, and I would throw the other nine at these tyrannical Fatimids.”
    Imam Abu Bakr Al-Nabulsi

    Scanned Books: Who Killed Al-Hussein?

    Video: Rafidah Ayatullats shameful admition.

    Al-Hussein said in one of his invocations upon shia: “O Allah if you give them enjoyment for a while..then disintegrate them into groups…and divide their path…and never ever accept from them leadership…for verily they called us for help…then they transgress upon us and killed us.”(Al-Irshaad by Al-Mufid page 241)



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