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Bukhari and pronounciation of Quran

This is a discussion on Bukhari and pronounciation of Quran within the Islamic Theology and Ideology forums, part of the Islamic Knowledge category; As-Salaam'aleykam, Is it the case that Imam Bukhari's opinion in regards to this issue opposed that of the salafi minhaj ...

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    Default Bukhari and pronounciation of Quran

    As-Salaam'aleykam,

    Is it the case that Imam Bukhari's opinion in regards to this issue opposed that of the salafi minhaj of today (who say that he who mentions his utterence/pronounciation of Quran as being created is on the wrong path)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zaid_ibn_ali View Post
    As-Salaam'aleykam,

    Is it the case that Imam Bukhari's opinion in regards to this issue opposed that of the salafi minhaj of today (who say that he who mentions his utterence/pronounciation of Quran as being created is on the wrong path)?
    Imam al-Bukhari never said that. Actually, he declared himself that the one who relates that from him is a liar.

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    Are you referring to this tradition:

    Abu Amr al-Khaffaf who said to him: People are examining your words My pronunciation of Quran is created Bukhari said: O Abu Amr, remember what I say to you: Whoever claims, among the people of Naysabur, Qamus, Rayy, Hamadhan, Baghdad, Kufa, Basra, Mecca, and Madina, that I ever said: My pronunciation of Quran is created, he is a liar; truly I never said it. All I said is: The actions of servants are created.?

    If so, read the bold part in the quote below.

    The following is found in dhahabi's siyar I believe:

    Al-Dhuhli was fierce (shadd) in his adhesion to the Sunna. He confronted Muhammad ibn Ismail [al-Bukhari] because the latter had alluded, in his Khalq Afal al-Ibad, to the fact that the readers utterance of the Quran was created. Bukhari made it understood without explicitly saying it, but he certainly made it clear. On the other hand Ahmad ibn Hanbal flatly refused to explore the question, as well as Abu Zura and al-Dhuhli, or indulge in the terminology of dialectic theologians (al-mutakallimn), and they did well may Allah reward them excellently. Ibn Ismail had to travel from Naysabur under cover, and he was pained by what Muhammad ibn Yahya [al-Dhuhli] had done to him. (See Al-Dhahabi, Siyar (10:207)

    Also:

    Al-Hakim [narrated with his chains]: Muhammad ibn Yahya [al-Dhuhli] said: This Bukhari has openly subscribed to the doctrine of pronunciationists (al-lafziyya), and for me those are worse than the Jahmiyya. . . . Ahmad ibn Salama visited Bukhari and told him: O Abu Abd Allah, this is a respected man [i.e. al-Dhuhli] in Khurasan, especially in this town [Naysabur], and he has thundered with this speech until none of us can say anything to him about it, so what do you think we should do? Bukhari grasped his beard then he said: (I confide my cause unto Allah. Lo! Allah is Seer of His slaves.) (40:44) He continued: O Allah! You know that I did not want for one moment to settle in Naysabur out of arrogance, nor in quest of leadership, but only because my soul would not let me return to my own country [Bukhara] because of my opponents; and now this man intends harm for me out of jealousy, only because of what Allah gave me and for no other reason. Then he said to me: O Ahmad, tomorrow I shall leave and you will be rid of his talk which I caused. . . . Muhammad ibn Yaqub the hadith master said: When al-Bukhari settled in Naysabur Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj took to visiting him frequently. When the affair of the pronunciation of Quran took place between al-Bukhari and [al-Dhuhli] and the latter roused people against him and forbade them to visit him, most people stopped visiting him, but not Muslim. Then al-Dhuhli said: Anyone that subscribes to the pronunciation [being created], it is not permitted for them to attend our gathering. Whereupon Muslim placed a cloak on top of his turban, stood up in front of everyone, and sent back to al-Dhuhli what he had written from him carried by a camel-driver, for Muslim openly subscribed to the pronunciation and made no attempt to conceal it. . . . Ahmad ibn Mansur al-Shirazi also narrated it from Muhammad ibn Yaqub, adding: And Ahmad ibn Salama stood up and followed him. (See Al-Dhahabi, Siyar (10:314-315). Cf. Bayhaqis al-Asma wa al-Sifat (al-Hashidi ed. 2:20-21 #591).

    The last quote also includes Imam Muslim as holding the same belief.

    Your comments are most welcome.

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    i think that snippet of dhahabee was either
    1. taken out of context
    or
    2. maybe dhahabee erred, but highly unlikely

    al-Bukharee when asked by his students about the issue of al-lafdhz said
    in response

    1.The quraan is uncreated
    2. The actions of the servants are created
    3. Our recitation is an action

    in that literal fashion.

    His saying is 100 percent true
    The only reason why he was abandoned was because of Muhamamd bin Yahya's inapplicable jarh against him based on Ahmad's saying "Wheoevr says my recitation of the quraan is created is a jahmi"

    BUT, as the sunni Imaams clarified, his statement was applicable only to those who beleived that the quraan is created and in trying to hide their beleif used a hidden fashion of "my recitation" of it is created. Thus while in principle if anyone who beleives their recitation of the quraan is created is indeed correct, those who say it know from the sunni nation only say so on the basis of their beleif that their action is created, and not that the quraan is created, where as the jahmiyyah said so on the basis of their beleif that the quran is created. Thats the fundmental difference. And that was what Muhamamd bin Yahay tried to insinuate on Bukharee

    Thus to repudiate his claim he wrote the Khalq Afal al-Ibaad which most sunni ulema attested that this work cleared his name.

    asalamu alaikum
    "I have debated with the Ash'aris
    and it has become clear to me that they believe that Allah does not exist"

    al-Mustaqeem Publications

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    Quote Originally Posted by ali View Post
    i think that snippet of dhahabee was either
    1. taken out of context
    or
    2. maybe dhahabee erred, but highly unlikely

    al-Bukharee when asked by his students about the issue of al-lafdhz said
    in response

    1.The quraan is uncreated
    2. The actions of the servants are created
    3. Our recitation is an action

    in that literal fashion.

    His saying is 100 percent true
    The only reason why he was abandoned was because of Muhamamd bin Yahya's inapplicable jarh against him based on Ahmad's saying "Wheoevr says my recitation of the quraan is created is a jahmi"

    BUT, as the sunni Imaams clarified, his statement was applicable only to those who beleived that the quraan is created and in trying to hide their beleif used a hidden fashion of "my recitation" of it is created. Thus while in principle if anyone who beleives their recitation of the quraan is created is indeed correct, those who say it know from the sunni nation only say so on the basis of their beleif that their action is created, and not that the quraan is created, where as the jahmiyyah said so on the basis of their beleif that the quran is created. Thats the fundmental difference. And that was what Muhamamd bin Yahay tried to insinuate on Bukharee

    Thus to repudiate his claim he wrote the Khalq Afal al-Ibaad which most sunni ulema attested that this work cleared his name.

    asalamu alaikum

    I always thought the salafi's believed otherwise?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zaid_ibn_ali View Post
    I always thought the salafi's believed otherwise?
    we do if the intent is to hiddenly say that the quraan is created. But when we say "our recitation of the quraan is created" and admit to it's truth, we only hold that our actual recitation of it is so based on it being an action, and not that the actual quraan we recite is created. But the jahmiyyah had a different intent when they said it.

    But we simply don't say it for the simple fact that
    1. it does not need to be said
    2. its opening a can of worms
    3. it is best to say along with it "al-quraan laysa bi makhluq"
    4. We never say it for the representation of ur aqeedah anyways. We just merely understand from what avenue the people of the past have said it and intended with it.
    "I have debated with the Ash'aris
    and it has become clear to me that they believe that Allah does not exist"

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    hmmm. But how do you know ones intent?

    Though I always did think salafi's believed our recitation was uncreated. Maybe some input of others on this forum to clarify if Brother Ali's words hold consensus amongst salafi's?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zaid_ibn_ali View Post
    hmmm. But how do you know ones intent?


    by their creedal affiliation
    "I have debated with the Ash'aris
    and it has become clear to me that they believe that Allah does not exist"

    al-Mustaqeem Publications

    retired

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    Quote Originally Posted by zaid_ibn_ali View Post
    Are you referring to this tradition:

    Abu Amr al-Khaffaf who said to him: People are examining your words My pronunciation of Quran is created Bukhari said: O Abu Amr, remember what I say to you: Whoever claims, among the people of Naysabur, Qamus, Rayy, Hamadhan, Baghdad, Kufa, Basra, Mecca, and Madina, that I ever said: My pronunciation of Quran is created, he is a liar; truly I never said it. All I said is: The actions of servants are created.?
    Yes, I'm referring to this narration:

    1) Narrated by al-Lalika'i with a sound Isnad up to Imam al-Bukhari.

    2) Confirmed in meaning by Imam al-Bukhari himself in the Khalq Af'al al-'Ibad.

    If so, read the bold part in the quote below.

    The following is found in dhahabi's siyar I believe:

    Al-Dhuhli was fierce (shadd) in his adhesion to the Sunna. He confronted Muhammad ibn Ismail [al-Bukhari] because the latter had alluded, in his Khalq Afal al-Ibad, to the fact that the readers utterance of the Quran was created. Bukhari made it understood without explicitly saying it, but he certainly made it clear. On the other hand Ahmad ibn Hanbal flatly refused to explore the question, as well as Abu Zura and al-Dhuhli, or indulge in the terminology of dialectic theologians (al-mutakallimn), and they did well may Allah reward them excellently. Ibn Ismail had to travel from Naysabur under cover, and he was pained by what Muhammad ibn Yahya [al-Dhuhli] had done to him. (See Al-Dhahabi, Siyar (10:207)
    I need an exact quote, preferably in Arabic. Go to www.almeshkat.com and look up the Siyar of al-Dhahabi, search the bookvolume wherein it can be found by Ctrl F and copy/past the part please.

    For now, it is enough that YOU have given us a statement of the Imam al-Bukhari himself, which is narrated by a full chain and accepted by the learned. And this statement belies what some, wrongly, ascribe to the Imam or what they put into his mouth.

    Don't you agree?

    Also:

    Al-Hakim [narrated with his chains]: Muhammad ibn Yahya [al-Dhuhli] said: This Bukhari has openly subscribed to the doctrine of pronunciationists (al-lafziyya), and for me those are worse than the Jahmiyya. . . . Ahmad ibn Salama visited Bukhari and told him: O Abu Abd Allah, this is a respected man [i.e. al-Dhuhli] in Khurasan, especially in this town [Naysabur], and he has thundered with this speech until none of us can say anything to him about it, so what do you think we should do? Bukhari grasped his beard then he said: (I confide my cause unto Allah. Lo! Allah is Seer of His slaves.) (40:44) He continued: O Allah! You know that I did not want for one moment to settle in Naysabur out of arrogance, nor in quest of leadership, but only because my soul would not let me return to my own country [Bukhara] because of my opponents; and now this man intends harm for me out of jealousy, only because of what Allah gave me and for no other reason. Then he said to me: O Ahmad, tomorrow I shall leave and you will be rid of his talk which I caused. . . . Muhammad ibn Yaqub the hadith master said: When al-Bukhari settled in Naysabur Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj took to visiting him frequently. When the affair of the pronunciation of Quran took place between al-Bukhari and [al-Dhuhli] and the latter roused people against him and forbade them to visit him, most people stopped visiting him, but not Muslim. Then al-Dhuhli said: Anyone that subscribes to the pronunciation [being created], it is not permitted for them to attend our gathering. Whereupon Muslim placed a cloak on top of his turban, stood up in front of everyone, and sent back to al-Dhuhli what he had written from him carried by a camel-driver, for Muslim openly subscribed to the pronunciation and made no attempt to conceal it. . . . Ahmad ibn Mansur al-Shirazi also narrated it from Muhammad ibn Yaqub, adding: And Ahmad ibn Salama stood up and followed him. (See Al-Dhahabi, Siyar (10:314-315). Cf. Bayhaqis al-Asma wa al-Sifat (al-Hashidi ed. 2:20-21 #591).

    The last quote also includes Imam Muslim as holding the same belief.

    Your comments are most welcome.
    This story does not contain any citation of Imam al-Bukhari on the Lafz being created. Wasn't it this what you asked about?

    This story rather informs us what al-Dhuhli thought about al-Bukhari's beliefs, which is mistaken. For this reason al-Bukhari belied anyone who would put this into his mouth, as you cited this.

    If one read also al-Bukhari's Khalq Af'al al-'Ibad, one comes to know that some followers of Imam Ahmad were mistaken in this credal issue. Actually, Avu Zur'ah, Abu Hatim, al-Dhuhli and whoever follows them deserve to be criticized more than al-Bukhari; all they were not obscure or mujmal in opinioning that the Lafz al-Qur'an is uncreated, a view of which Imam Ahmad himself declared people innovators for.

    As for al-Bukhari, he neither subscribed to its createdness or to its uncreatedness. This would make him following the Sunnah better then them, as Ibn Taymiyyah confirmed. For this reason al-Bukhari said that 'Followers of Ahmad have misunderstood him..' and aired an opinion which is wrong. These followers include al-Dhuhli and his supporters.

    This story says also nothing what Imam Muslim said. It rather informs us implicitly what Muslim opinioned. Surely, the one who knows this affair (fitnah) well wherein al-Bukhari abandoned Naysabur he will confirm that al-Bukhari never believed in such a view; and if he did not believe in it, I doubt Muslim would believe in it too.

    It very easy to list all the scholars who believed in the Lafz pronounced by the slave to be created or uncreated, through the testimony of the scholars themselves or the verifying reporters: Jahm b. Safwan, Bishr b. Ghiyat, al-Karabisi, al-Tarsusi, Ibn Kullab, al-Muhasibi and several others opinioned that the Lafz is created; Abu Zur'ah, Abu Hatim, al-Dhuhli, Harb al-Kirmani and several others (in fact most of the Eastern Hanbalis, incl. the whole Banu Mandah family) opinion its uncreatedness. And then you have those who are upon the most sound opinion, which is Ahmad's opinion: from its upholders are two great leading Imams of old, Abu Bakr al-Marwazi and his student Abu Bakr al-Khallal, and many many others. In this category fall al-Bukhari for sure, as his Khalq indicates clearly.

    I don't know of a single knowledgeable scholar in creed who said that al-Bukhari believed in the Lafz being created or uncreated. al-Subki claimed that, but he is not knowledgeable about al-Bukhari's beliefs and other early Hanbalites.

    wa Allahu A'lam

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sharif_Abu_Jafar View Post
    Yes, I'm referring to this narration......

    wa Allahu A'lam

    The narration again:

    examining your words My pronunciation of Quran is created Bukhari said: O Abu Amr, remember what I say to you: Whoever claims, among the people of Naysabur, Qamus, Rayy, Hamadhan, Baghdad, Kufa, Basra, Mecca, and Madina, that I ever said: My pronunciation of Quran is created, he is a liar; truly I never said it. All I said is: The actions of servants are created.

    But isnt Imam Bukhari alluding to the fact that the pronounciation/recitation is created by this last statement? And that Imam Bukhari is merely saying that he never mentioned it in the wording that Abu Amr mentioned? Even though they mean the same thing, but Abu Amr's wording makes Imam Bukhari sound like an utterer of non-subtle words i.e. someone who is going round saying "our recitation is created" like he is delving into sensitive and meaningless kalaam issues? Isn't Imam Bukhari in his statement aknowledging that he did believe so, but never said it in that 'fashion'?

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